Eck initiates go out and find material ... .

[Etznab]

"[...] Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-
Vidya whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to
take all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way.
It's more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why
the ECK initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh
themselves.
"Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real.

[Based on: Excerpt from article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual
Lessons) by Harold Klemp]

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html
*********

It seems there has been a lot of talk about Eck Masters being real.
Based on other people's experiences. However, those experiences - of
other people - are often less than tangible when another person wants
to look at them for substance. A lot of times another person just has
to take it on faith, or take them for their word. This is part of the
problem though, IMO. At least, it can be this. Part of the reason is
that one person is trying to imagine what another person said, meant,
experienced.

OK. I have an experience about Eck Masters. One that I can illustrate
by giving the words recorded by various Eck Masters alongside of very
similar, if not identical words written by other authors.

What about this? Has Harold Klemp (who doesn't use the Internet, or
computers very much, on account of EMR sensitivity) researched the
veritable trove of examples by Rebazar Tarzs that mirror words of
other authors? Many who wrote their books years and decades before
Eckankar was founded?

I hear a lot about Eck Masters being real based on unsubstantial
information, or that which cannot be verified. At the same time, when
substantial information is given and I am asked why do I focus on the
form? ... I have to counter with: Why isn't it OK to look at the form?
Why isn't it important to look at the recorded history and what the
Eck Masters reportedly said?

Hey. I have gone and found out material about Sudar Singh ... and
Rebazar Tarzs too!

*********

Here's a thought. Imagine that someone created a fictional story, and
then ask: How can this story be substantiated? Put on your thinking
cap now. Umm ... How about looking at the FORM that was used to CREATE
it?

See what I'm saying? If a story is fiction and does not contain real
living characters, with real living histories, then how can you ever
substantiate them except by giving the literal text, or words, used to
describe them in the first place?

The answer I keep seeing requires the use of imagination. And yes, I
admit that with the use of imagination even fictional stories and
characters can come alive - in the imagination!

I'm not looking for a fiction lineage of Eck Masters though. I'm
looking for the real live living people who wrote / said much of the
words contained in Eckankar dogma and teachings. The keyword here is
real, and living people.

Now I will not default to fictional pseudo history / religion if (and
when) that means overlooking the actual real living authors for much
of the teachings I was taught in Eckankar for decades. And I will not
do this for the sake of some pseudo man-made religious facade instead,
or in order not to hasten the death of an ideal. Why should I?

Harold Klemp once wrote (see quote at top of this post):

"Yet people report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever
heard of Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

Ahem ... I have something to report too. People read many of the same
words that Eck Masters reportedly gave. And guess what? They did it
years before there ever was an Eckankar organization! Moreover, they
read the words written by real live living people who had substantial
and verifiable histories. Not simply some artist's drawing, or what
people imagined.

For the record :)

[wernertrp]

Explanation:
For an European guy all Indian Masters look very similiar.
(With or without their Turban.)
So it's possible to see or imagine Rebazar for Sudar Sing Sing Song or
Paramhamsangdong into her living room.

[Etznab]

Some more examples of Rebazar Tarzs sounding like pages from out of a
book.

"When you know that consciousness is the one and only reality -
conceiving itself to be something good, bad, or indifferent, and
becoming that which It conceived itself to be - you are free from the
tyranny of second causes, free from the belief that there are causes
outside of your own mind that can affect your life.

"In the state of consciousness of the individual is found the
explanation of the phenomena of life. If man's concept of himself were
different, everything in his world would be different. His concept of
himself being what it is, everything in his world must be as it is."

Neville Goddard, The Power of Awareness - 1952

"When you know that consciousness is the one and only reality -
perceiving Itself to be something good, bad, or indifferent and
becoming that which It conceived Itself to be - you are free from the
tyranny of second causes, free from the belief that there are causes
outside of your own mind that can affect your life.

"Within the state of consciousness of the individual is found the
explanation of the phenomena of life. If man's concept of himself were
different, everything in his world would be different. His concept of
himself being what it is, everything in his world must be as it is.

"This is the doctrine of ECKANKAR. Is it clear?"

Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell in, The Key to Eckankar (p.6) - 1968

In both books - in Neville's and Paul's - is the concept of creation
being finished. Use this next page to search for the phrase creation
is finished.

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfA...

One example is Neville's Chapter 10 entitled Creation.

CREATION IS finished. Creativeness is only a deeper receptiveness, for
the entire contents of all time and all space, while experienced in a
time sequence, actually coexist in an infinite and eternal now. In
other words, all that you ever have been or ever will be - in fact,
all that mankind ever was or ever will be - exists now. This is what
is meant by creation, and the statement that creation is finished
means nothing is ever to be created, it is only to be manifested. What
is called creativeness is only becoming aware of what already is. You
simply become aware of increasing portions of that which already
exists. The fact that you can never be anything that you are not
already or experience anything not already existing explains the
experience of having an acute feeling of having heard before what is
being said, or having met before the person being met for the first
time, or having seen before a place or thing being seen for the first
time.

The whole of creation exists in you, and it is your destiny to become
increasingly aware of its infinite wonders and to experience ever
greater and grander portions of it. [....]

Compare with Rebazar Tarzs on p. 10 of Paul Twitchell's The Key to
Eckankar.

"One must come to realize that all creation is finished in the lower
universes. Creativeness is only a deeper receptiveness. The entire
contents of all time and all space, while experienced in a time
sequence, actually coexist in an infinite and eternal now. In fact,
all that mankind ever was or ever shall be in these lower worlds
exists now! This is what is meant by the statement that creation is
finished. Nothing is ever created, only manifested. What is called
creativeness is only becoming aware of what already is. You simply
become increasingly aware of portions of that which already exists.
In fact, you can never be anything that you are not already, or
experience anything not already existing. The whole of creation exists
in you, and it is your destiny to become increasingly aware of its
infinite wonders and to experience even greater and greater portions
of it. [....]

*********

It looks to me like (in these examples at least) somebody copied and
paraphrased Neville Goddard. Is there another explanation why this
Rebazar Tarzs (via Paul Twitchell) would use such similar words in
such similar order as Neville? If Paul compiled from "remote writings,
little-known truths, and the most accurate parts of what had been
given in the past" then I suggest he - an ex pulp fiction writer and
newspaper reporter, etc. - could have done this using a card catalog
in the public library.

http://tinyurl.com/7zxfqxq

***

Tag Mystique - Quote comparisons between Neville Goddard & Rebazar
Tarzs

[Kinpa]

its all good and fine, both ways, either looking at the forms and
plagiarisms, or relying solely on one's own inner experience, but imo,
the most important and overlooked thing seems to be that the EK uses
ANY image or form, to express ITSELF to a student, whether physically
or inwardly, and even if that form was claimed to have lived, and
never actually did because it is fiction, that doesnt at all imo deter
from the spiritual value of the experience, and ill further point out
that Neville Goddard got every single word from elsewhere himself,
whether by imagination, copying in any way, or just plain personal
experimentation and experience, he literally cant claim to own the
words or concepts contained in his books, they simply are NOT
his....and any spiritual discovery made by him (just for example) is
not a new one in the general sense, it may be new to him, but he
wouldnt be the first to realize it, so he doesnt own it.....so, what
im saying is, that these experiences and realizations are there for
the taking by literally anyone, and Spirit might well choose to use a
"form" that is believed in, while being completely unproven to
physically exist, simply because that form has an access point in that
individual's consciousness which can be used for spiritual
development.....i was at one time married to a person who had an
experience with Rebezar without having ever read ANY Eck material (or
even knowing it existed at all), and without reading ANY of the
materials found to have been used by PT to write Eck books, and in
this case the general mis-identification of an eastern or central
asian figure doesnt work. This person was psychic, and so could see
and hear inner figures, regardless of who or what they were, and in
this case a middle aged figure, with black hair , mustache and beard,
wearing a maroon robe was described, and the "name" Rebezeer Tarz
said, from the experience....not quite "right" but close enough to
make me wonder, and a good description...at a later point both of us
were visited by this figure, we BOTH could see and hear him, and he
wore Rebezar's "form", told us strange and seemingly unlikely
predictions, which did come true, despite our skepticism, so, imo,
regardless of whether or not he was a made up figure, he IS, now, a
"form" that the EK uses in it's functions among souls......this isnt
meant to disagree with you Etz, or anything like that, just to throw
in another factor in the mix, one which cant be resolved by claims of
pictures being seen, or books read, or words spoken or over heard,
while those things CAN happen and be the case at times, they are not
ALWAYS the case....so, IF Rebezar wants to come and speak to me, ill
listen, as long as its the real deal and not an imposter, as i have
yet to get any info from this soul that has lead me astray....this of
course has nothing to do with your own search for verifiable facts
about any Masters or in looking through the plagiarisms, it only adds
one more potential explanation of such events...

[Etznab]

Point taken. I hear you.

[Etznab]

Quote comparisons between Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy and The Key
to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell.

"[...] happiness is either a fool's paradise, or else a by-product of
continual striving toward spiritual consciousness. True happiness is a
sensation of momentary balance. When we remember who and what we
really are, we do no wrong and we injure no one. Even our worst
mistakes turn out to others' benefit; and they become profitable
lessons for us."

Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy, p. 23

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy.html

"So we come to happiness. This is either a fool's paradise or a by-
product of continual striving towards spiritual consciousness. True
happiness is a sensation of momentary balance. When man remembers who
and what he really is, he does no wrong and injures no one. Even his
worst mistakes turn out to be a help to others and profitable lessons
for us."

Rebazar Tarzs in - The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968, pp.
24-25

***

Following along in both books it looks like a lot of paraphrasing
going on when Talbot's work is compared with Twitchells. Here is
another example.

"Gradually, as we struggle upward toward soul consciousness, the
illusion loses its hypnotic grip. We begin then to be free to think
clearly and to solve problems sanely. We leave off trying to fill
holes with shadows. Instead, we fill them with ideas that develop
their own substance. But it follows that a clairvoyant- seeing on a
spiritual plane but working for material personal profit -- and
especially for dishonest profit -- is committing spiritual treason.
That is why gamblers and spies and criminals who use clairvoyance, as
many of them consciously do, invariably meet disaster. Clairvoyance
perverted to treacherous ends becomes spiritual suicide. Sometimes it
leads to the madhouse. It is always, without any exception -- without
any possible exception -- ruinous to the one who misuses it."

Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy, p. 24

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

"Gradually, as man struggles toward God, the illusion of this life
loses its hypnotic grip. We begin then to be free to think clearly and
to solve problems sanely. We stop trying to fill holes with shadows.
Instead, we try to fill them with ideas that develop their own
substance.

"Anyone seeing on a spiritual plane, but working for material,
personal profit, and especially for dishonest profit, is committing
spiritual treason. This is why spies and criminals who use
clairvoyance, as many of them consciously do, invariably meet with
disaster. Clairvoyance perverted to treacherous ends leads to
spiritual suicide. Sometimes it leads one into the madhouse. It is
always, without exception - without any possible exception - ruinous
to the one who misuses it."

Rebazar Tarzs in - The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968, pp.
25

***

Some other examples (these are not all of them) I found interesting
were:

"Then were Homer, Virgil, and the ancients literally right? And the
Bhagavad-Gita? Are there beings who guide and protect us Guardian
angels? Did Joan of Arc really hear voices? What is a Master? Who ever
saw one, and told, and got himself believed by anyone but yokels and
nuts?"

Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy, p. 58

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

"You have asked if there are ECK Masters who guide and protect man.
Yes. The ECK travelers were responsible for many of the works of
Homer, Virgil, and other ancient literary and spiritual works,
including the Bhagavad Gita. The voices which Joan of Arc heard were
the voices of the ECK Masters telling her what course in life she
should take."

Rebazar Tarzs in - The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968, pp.
27

***

"Didn't Shakespeare say a poet's function is to reach to heaven for
ideas and bring them down to earth?"

Yes. He said that. 'The poet's eye is a fine frenzy rolling -- ' "

"So, did Shakespeare originate the ideas that his poems convey? Did
Jesus originate the Sermon on the Mount -- or did he, like
Shakespeare, take an ancient theme and hold it up to be drenched with
Idea, like dew from heaven? Where did Beethoven go to find his Fifth
Symphony? When great poetry and great music inspire you, what is
conceived, gestates and gets born of that? -- The wrong thing or the
right thing? -- Do you act nobly, or contemptibly, when you have let
Shakespeare's or Milton's vision illumine thought and -- "

He interrupted, growing irritable: "Then am I a ventriloquist's dummy
-- parroting what's put into my mouth? -- A mere marionette -- one of
the lumpen-proletariat who -- "

"Some people are. God pity those who misuse them. But you can choose,
can't you, between noble and ignoble? You understand poetry and music
love them -- you can let them flow into your consciousness. What else
stirred you to such undreamed of effort that you're here, in the wilds
of Tibet -- instead of where?"

"Are you trying to link me with some kind of metaphysical chain to Old
Ugly-face?"

"Aren't we all linked to the sun, moon, stars? Isn't Lobsang Pun a
poet? Like you -- more so -- more intelligently -- doesn't he raise
his consciousness to higher planes -- and see -- "

"See what?"

"As from a masthead -- past, present, future, all in one moment, seen
from above, through the eyes of -- "

"Whose eyes?"

Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy, p. 59

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

"Shakespeare says a poet's function is to reach to heaven for ideas
and bring them down to earth. It is true that thought does not
originate with man, but in heaven. Where did Beethoven go to find his
Fifth Symphony? Did Jesus originate the Sermon on the Mount? When
great poetry and great music inspires you, what is conceived,
gestated, and born of that? You can choose between noble and ignoble.
You understand poetry and music. Love them, and let them flow into
your consciousness. So you see that we all are linked to the sun,
moon, and stars. We can lift our consciousness to higher planes and
see from above, as if from the masthead of a ship, the past, present,
and future, all in a moment, through the eyes of Soul."

Rebazar Tarzs in - The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968, p. 27

***

FAQ from Eckankar Website has:

"What about claims that the modern-day founder of Eckankar, Paul
Twitchell, borrowed freely from other authors in writing his Eckankar
books?"

Go here to read the answer.

http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#paultwitchell

*********

I tag this post Mystique.

[Etznab]

On Feb 22, 10:05 pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:

[Kinpa]

On Feb 23, 2:03 am, Santim Vah <sean.arund...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Kinpa,
>
> that is an excellent response, and valuable in it's own right.
>
> What a breath of fresh air that is to read, someone speaking from
> their own personal experience as opposed to Eckankar Marketing Boards
> latest promo flyer approach that usually surfaces here as *retort*.
>
> So for that I personally thank you. That doesn't mean that I need to
> defer to your conclusions either, nor promote them in any way be it
> true or false or partly true, as valid as they are for you - that is
> all that counts imho.
>
> Putting aside your excellent reply for a moment though, there are
> still issues that exist which might require a level of truth telling
> that goes way beyond the reality or not of a RT form as an inner
> guide.
> I could touch on many separate issues but why not just mention one,
> and keep it simple.
>
> RE

> ....and any spiritual discovery made by him (just for example) is
>  not a new one in the general sense, it may be new to him, but he
>  wouldnt be the first to realize it, so he doesnt own it.....
>

> In this case you were referring to Neville Goddard, however one could
> equally and validly apply those very same words to Paul and his
> writings, as well as to Harold and his writings, and every book
> published by Eckankar. TM.
>
> To spell it out so there is no doubt about what I mean .. one could
> easily say and it would be as true as what you suggested above:
> ECKANKAR does not own IT; does not OWN the ideas and writings of Paul
> Twitchell; any more than he owned Goddards writings, or Goddard owned
> his ideas.
>
> Along the way Eckists pick up MYTHS about these matters, such as the
> spin/lie/unproven theory and rank falsehood that the plagiarism is
> only 2% of Paul's total writings. Created out of thin air and spread
> by well meaning folks, which are still not even slightly true, and far
> from the whole truth of matters no matter how many swallow this
> untruth whole.
>
> I wonder if you can work out what you have, and Etznab can find what
> he has found repeatedly and easily, then why after 30 years has Harold
> himself not also been able to articulate things as openly and honestly
> from his own experience, from the records in Paul's archive in his
> possession, from all the known research to date about the facts of the
> matter, and at the same time still seems unable to call a spade a
> spade and be honest and open about the whole thing?
>
> Whilst the following is not the whole truth either, it sure is a more
> accurate expression of the facts and the truth of matters great and
> small --
>
> - 100% of Paul's books contain vast amounts of verbatim quotes from
> the writings of others which he used as source written texts for his
> books.
> - 100% of his books contain redacted edited ideas and concepts lifted
> from existing books and others religions wholesale then re-written
> into an Eckankar format that is proven to have mislead readers for
> decades.
> - 100% of Paul's writings in which he places words coming out of the
> mouths of ECK Masters are ALL from the written texts of others, and
> not actually the words of those ECK Masters nor Paul''s own words
> either - and that's 100% of the time.
>
> Now 100% may not be completely true, there are always exceptions to
> the rule, but if all one has is the fraudulent logical fallacy of the
> 2% claim vs 100% here, I know that 100% is more true than the 2% and
> that's an undeniable fact. :-)
>
> Well anything could be denied, but it sure will cause a credibility
> issue for the denier. But to accept my 3 suggestions above, does not
> negate your own personal experiences, does not negate the possibility
> of a RT as an inner guide idea, does not negate Harold's story about
> his Astral Library dream either. But if people really did know more of
> the truth then they would recognise how untrue the mythical 2% claim
> is.
>
> And they could also recognise the futility of claiming TM Copyright
> ownership over Paul's writings and the whole idea of Eckankar as being
> as unique and special as it is marketed as in the physical worlds. It
> should also open up the space for others who wish to use Paul's
> writings in the same in which Paul's used others in creating his
> version of spiritual truth and wisdom without fear of more direct
> threats of legal action by Eckankar and having their own version of
> spirituality trashed as much as Paul's was by others in the 1960's.
>
> The other aspect is that Eckankar uses half-truths to attract new
> members whilst with-holding already known information, and purposely
> minimising the implications of what it actually means when people read
> these manifold false impressions that Eckankar sells for money all
> over the world. It is not 1965 or 1971 any more. It's not Paul's
> responsibility to fix it any more.
>
> The harsh treatment of individuals by regular HIs, Arahatas, local
> satsang CEOs and RESAs, plus all other authority figures in Eckankar
> from Harold down for asking the most obvious sensible of questions
> about such matters and then told blatant untruths or personally
> attacked is undeserved, and has been unnecessarily harmful. A little
> or even a lot of more of the hard facts and the truth would not have
> made things worse.
>
> The truth is what it is .. spinning it, avoiding the issue, half
> truths, poetic parables, serves no good purpose for anyone and is an
> ethical and credibility issue for Eckankar and Harold that will not go
> away. The karma has already been sown and will continue to bear fruit
> into the future. Unfortunately all religions tend to be just like
> that.
>
> imho
>
> cheers

i get your points lol, and i happen to agree from my own limited
understanding of things, Eckankar does NOT own these things any more
than they own any individual's personal experiences or
realizations....as for why Harold hasnt cleared things up, i cant
claim to know....the best case explanation that i can come up with, is
that when Harold "saw" Eckanakar, and the direction of it as a
teaching under his own place in things, as well as the next couple of
Masters that would follow him, it is POSSIBLE that he saw a need to do
things this way, and while that may not be good enough for everyone,
or anyone, it MAY have still been the better way to go about it, just
as PT decided that the way he did things was the best way at that
time, even though apparently he said at one point (in difficulties of
becoming the Eck Master??? im not sure, i think ive only seen it
referred to) that his books would have to be rewritten to one extent
or another...perhaps this was because he knew that the view n
plagiarism had or would change, from what it was when he was younger,
and that all of this would occur, i dont know, but something must have
made him decide that his way was the best way at the time, despite the
things it would cause.....i have had similar experiences, and on both
sides of it, knowing there was a thing to be dealt with, and knowing
that i couldnt say everything i knew about that situation, and so not
telling the whole truth at the time concerning what i knew, and only
saying certain things, and in a certain way, so as to be helpful, but
not cause something else that would be worse....this is the reason i
suggest it is POSSIBLE that both of them had or have knowledge that
causes them to do things the way they did, and as i said, that is a
best case scenario and potential explanation of things being done the
way they are, but of course i cant say for certain even remotely, i
simply dont know.
what i can say, is that PT's collection of things from other
places, does work well, and true initiations can be had in Eckankar,
at least mine have been, and i refer to the inner ones that i have
been aware of....i was also told a thing by an inner Master, whether
ever a real living person or just a working form for the EK to work
with and teach me personally, but i was told a direct contradiction of
what Harold has said on the matter of initiations, and that was that
the inner initiations were of the greatest value, not the outer ones
or the piece of paper one gets before an outer one...i find that i
agree with BOTH at the same time, how messed up is that? there is a
bit of a sketchy area in there concerning what the human is aware of
concerning them, and what that human's inner selves know about
it...ive had my own astral form come and tell me directly when i'd get
that pink slip for my next outer one, after already having a conscious
"bilocation" experience, that meaning a consciousness occurring on the
physical plane and the soul plane, rather than being seen by another
at 2 people at 2 different locations at the same time, and i can
definitely say that that was an inner initiation that happened in the
presence of another non Eckist and non spiritually interested person
in the room at the time, who was on his computer facing the other way
at that moment it happened, so he was completely unaware of anything
happening to me, and it was over by the time he looked at, or spoke to
me....and btw that pink slip DID actually arrive on the specific day i
was told it would by my inner self, and that was almost 3 years after
the inner initiation i just described...that didnt make ANY sense to
me at first, but does now in ways i cant even explain....it might be
very much the same sort of thing, concerning HI's and RESA's and so on
and the way some treat students of a lesser initiation at times, that
NOT excusing the bad treatment of said students in any way, only
meaning to suggest the possibility that some hadnt yet grown into the
higher states of consciousness suggested by the higher OUTER
initiations, or even in many cases not at all grown into at all.
as you said, karma applies even to HI's when they create it for
themselves by acting that way, and it will surely (at least imo) come
to be cashed in as much as it has been in my own case, of that ive NO
doubts. PT did say that Eckankar would at some point be reduced to
nothing but ritual and dogma the way ALL religions/paths do at some
point...it's been said to me by these inner Masters that the next
Living ECK Master may very well choose to walk away from the outer
organization and set out to teach the WAY to a much smaller group of
students outwardly, although that wouldnt necessarily stop him from
continuing to teach on the inner, any numbers of chelas....these
things do happen, and paths do split, as Eckankar already has several
times so far....each has to discern for themselves which way to
follow, for better or worse, each has to follow their own heart and
their own inner guidance, and just do the best that they can with it
as things proceed, just as the Sound Current does ITS will with every
individual along the way, and many times in a way that involves groups
of individuals, whether they all realize it or not as IT continually
sews this tapestry that we are ALL a part of, no matter which path or
group each individual belongs to or is associated with...myself i cant
NOT see it as PT put it, that ALL paths and religions spring from the
EK, or ECK, or SHABD, or Spirit, whichever NAAM one chooses to give IT
lol...everything DOES end up coming out in the wash in some way,
eventually....but thats just my opinion of course, and everyone is
welcome to their own!! ;o ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Etznab]

On Feb 23, 4:41 am, Santim Vah <sean.arund...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I cant think of anyone I've ever met who wasn't already doing the best
> they can, given their particular circumstances.
>
> a lovely read, and well put and worth considering imho, thanks very
> much Kinpa :-)>

I enjoyed Kinpa's post as well. And it's nice to see dialogue of this
kind with people free to share their own experiences, even if all
don't agree.

One thing about Harold Klemp in the 1980s ... I have a hunch. It was a
critical time. There were disagreements between masters AND chelas. It
may not have been the best time to unravel the whole Paul Twitchell
ball of yarn. Besides, Harold got hold of Paul's "library" and files
just a year before, I believe.

It is true though that this is not the 1960s, 1970s, or 1980s.

[Kinpa]

i want to add another potentiality that doesnt present Harold as a bad
guy, perhaps at that point where he saw the path and the series of
Masters, he also saw that it would be that Master that would do more
of a setting straight of things...as before i still havent any idea
what the ultimate truth is, but that one occurred to me today....after
hearing so many opinions that present he and the whole org as negative
scammers, why not a couple more possibilities to consider, that do not
require a scam, not a big deal or anything...ive often enough done the
wrong thing and realized later that i knew not to do it, so why did i?
if i had payed more attention to that feeling at the time i may have
had things work a bit more smoothly...thats how i came to think of
this as an option at all...

[wernertrp]

> ...
>
> Erfahren Sie mehr »

Erfahren Sie mehr ...

machen Sie Eckankar ...

[Kinpa]

vogel sheisen :-)

[signon77]

I think it's important for all spiritual students to validate every
aspect of the teachings for themselves. How else can they be certain
that their chosen path is real?

I think the strongest ECKists are those that commit themselves
wholeheartedly to the Spiritual Exercises of ECK. As issues come up
they can use them to get the answers to their questions.Dreams, Soul
Travel and contemplation are ways of getting answers to questions. But
without regular use of the Spiritual Exercises of ECK, it's hard to
get them to work. For more information about them see here:http://
www.eckankar.org/spex.html

Rob

[Etznab]

Rob,

Spiritual exercises have helped me learn more about the words of
Rebazar Tarzs. Also helped to answer a number of questions about
Eckankar history.

Etznab

[wernertrp]

Without spiritual exercises Eckankar is completly harmless.

[Etznab]

On Feb 25, 4:29 pm, Santim Vah <sean.arund...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think it's important for all spiritual students to  validate every
> > aspect of the teachings for themselves. How else can they be certain
> > that their chosen path is real?
>
> > I think the strongest ECKists are those that commit themselves
> > wholeheartedly to the Spiritual Exercises of ECK. As issues come up
> > they can use them to get the answers to their questions.Dreams, Soul
> > Travel and contemplation are ways of getting answers to questions. But
> > without regular use of the Spiritual Exercises of ECK, it's hard to
> > get them to work. For more information about them see here:http://www.eckankar.org/spex.html
>
> > Rob
>

> Those are very interesting comments.
>
> It raises the question of what is more important .. the validation of
> one's own chosen path as being real, or something else entirely?
>
> For to validate the reality of Eckankar (or Islam to  Voodoo) as a
> path on Earth, one only needs to look up the telephone directory or
> Google to know that.
>
> I guess it may depend more on what one's definition of *real* really
> is. :-)
>
> Plus if the essence of the path is actually in the Spiritual
> exercises, then the rest of the aspects are unnecessary and
> irrelevant; therefore of no consequence at all.
>
> Paul Twitchell, if one would pay attention to their own doctrine and
> history, became the outer Living ECK Master and Mahanta without any
> need for a path known as Eckankar. Paul was not an ECKist and never
> needed to go to an ECK Worship service nor a local HU chant, nor
> attend the last Worldwide seminar, nor read a book by Harold which is
> little more than the rehashing of others ideas and writings in order
> to raise his own consciousness. Paul never had a membership card that
> said today I am a 4th but tomorrow I am now a 7th Initiate; nor did
> Paul have to deal with a high initiate or resa deciding that today he
> is not good enough to recive the next outer Initiation according to
> their own interpretations of what is real or true about that
> individual Soul.
>
> Thus one may be left with the question of what to do when one's inner
> spiritual exercises leads one to the reality that so many of the
> aspects of their chosen path are actually invalid, and not at all
> true.
>
> Another wise question may be why not then in the 1960s or now in 2012
> simply teach the validity of the spiritual exercises and that each
> person needs to grow for that alone without the need to buy another
> book to be told what they should do, think or say as opposed from
> discovering the truth within their own self?
>
> Having a good read around page 144 of the SKS 2 maybe have a few hints
> in this regard, if one is able to contemplate the underlying truths
> there and rejecting the tests of misdirection in the written words.
> Some hints about what paul writes might be found in a google searchhttp://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22knowled...
>
> Along with his own recommended book (and author) reading list in LTG
> 1.
>
> So, if the strongest ECKists are those that commit themselves
> wholeheartedly to the Spiritual Exercises of ECK, then they would
> quickly ignore the fluff; would speak from their own experience,
> knowledge, and wisdom and thus would stop quoting others as if they
> were really God on Earth no matter how invalid, untrue, or how silly a
> thing is being said, claimed, or reported on the outer.
>
> ========
>
> This is made clear in a sermon of Meister Eckhart, in which he says:
> “I have said at times that there is a power in the soul, which alone
> is free. Occasionally I have said that it is the guardian of the soul
> or I have said that it is the light of the soul. Sometimes I have said
> it is a little spark. But now I say it is neither this nor that; but
> it is ‘that which eternally is’ higher above this or that than the
> heavens are above the earth. Therefore I now call it by a nobler name
> than ever before, but it repudiates this nobility and this mode and is
> far above them. It is free from all names, and altogether unimpeded,
> untrammeled and free from all modes, as God is free and untrammeled in
> Himself. It is so completely free and simple, as is God, that it
> cannot in any way be perceived.”[7]
>
> This inaccessibility of the unfathomable ground or little spark of the
> soul (which, in its simplicity and in the impossibility of its being
> imagined, is closer to the Godhead than to the soul as such, with its
> three powers or activities) manifests a distinction in the soul, the
> importance of which is derived from the teaching regarding the inner
> and the outer eye. “The soul has two eyes: one inward and one outward.
> It is the inner eye of the soul that looks into being and takes its
> being from God without any intermediary. That is its proper work.
>
> AND
>
> In the light of this breakthrough, Jacob Boehme became able to look
> into the heart of all things. His spiritual vision was, however, the
> vision of wisdom or sophia, which had betrothed herself to his heart.
> As lover of this truth, as philosophus in the true sense of the word,
> he could write:
>
> Not I, the I that I am, knows it but God knows it in me.
>
> Wisdom is his bride and the children of Christ, in Christ, in wisdom,
> are also God’s bride. So now the Spirit of Christ dwells in the
> children of Christ, and the children of Christ are grapes on the vine
> of Christ and with him are one body and also one spirit. Whose then is
> the knowledge, is it mine or God’s? For in the spirit of Christ should
> I not know from what this world is created, if He who dwells in me is
> the same as He who created it? Should He not know it? So now I suffer,
> and want to know nothing, the I (ich) that I (ich) am, as a part of
> the outer world, so that He may know in me what He will. I am not the
> mother who bears the knowledge, but my spirit is His wife, on which He
> begets the knowledge in the measure that He wishes. Just as God’s
> eternal wisdom is a body, in which He begets what He will, so begets
> He now, and I do nothing, but He in me. I am as though dead in the
> begetting of the high wisdom, and He is my life; I have neither
> searched for the wisdom nor learnt it. He has a special liking for my
> person, and my person for him. But now I am dead and understand
> nothing, but He is my understanding; so I say, I live in God and God
> in me, and thus from Him I teach and write, dear brothers; otherwise I
> know nothing.
> Angelus Silesius
>
> Angelus Silesius summarized his spiritual vision in rhymes whose
> beauty is filled with an inner certainty that derives directly from
> the knowledge of the divine being. This direct knowledge of God is
> founded on the identity of essence between God and the soul, which
> occurs when the soul once more corresponds to its original state of
> being created in the image of God.
>
> http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Spiri...
>
> RE ..........otherwise I know nothing.
> That's a great line, imho.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218
>
> <smile>

"Thus one may be left with the question of what to do when one's inner
spiritual exercises leads one to the reality that so many of the
aspects of their chosen path are actually invalid, and not at all
true."

Sometimes what people hear and read about are the beliefs and ideas of
others. And if others establish a church, religion or spiritual
teaching with a written official doctrine whereby members come to
believe, to worship and to teach that doctrine (whether checked and
researched for truth by them vs. accepted on faith) it can grow into a
corporation. In this sense the "other" individual is NOT exactly the
same as a single human being. IMO it is more like a collection of
individuals, with a hierarchy structure of beliefs & opinions evolving
and changing over time. When the really big questions are asked and
the answers given, often the answers reflect popular opinions from a
generation. And instead of coming from "mostly hidden masters and
occult sources" - with assumed characteristics and history - they
often result as a product of recorded "lineage" in the form of books!
Such answers to the big questions are often adopted, nurtured and
raised by pontifical heads whereby the former (answers) are influenced
as much (or more) by the latter (the priests) as are the latter by the
former.

If the aspects of a chosen path are found to be invalid, and not true
then each member need update the teachings on "their own" accord and
acknowledge their own "Eckankar" path. However, this doesn't mean
those updates (or findings of truth) will become a part of the entire
ecclesiastical collective.

(I'm not talking about an "Eckanborg Collective" where people are not
free to be individuals, but instead are subject to the chatter and
programs issued from a "Hive Mind" controlled by a King, or Queen bee,
so to speak.)

IMO the collective social mindset, the popular beliefs and opinions,
the church, organization, corporation and hierarchy are but so many
pretty flowers, or "roses", come up along the path to God. They need
not be (IMHO) plucked and sold as corsage to the extent of covering a
person so much so they lose sight of their own identity at the expense
of others.

Etznab

[signon77]

On Feb 28, 7:56 am, Santim Vah <sean.arund...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 26, 2:54 am, signon77 <signo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think it's important for all spiritual students to  validate every
> > aspect of the teachings for themselves. How else can they be certain
> > that their chosen path is real?
>
> > I think the strongest ECKists are those that commit themselves
> > wholeheartedly to the Spiritual Exercises of ECK. As issues come up
> > they can use them to get the answers to their questions.Dreams, Soul
> > Travel and contemplation are ways of getting answers to questions. But
> > without regular use of the Spiritual Exercises of ECK, it's hard to
> > get them to work. For more information about them see here:http://www.eckankar.org/spex.html
>
> > Rob
>

> There are three errors which can arise in doing the Spiritual
> Exercises of ECK ... overfondness, overfondness and overfondness ..
> (starts page 96 SKS2)
>
> "There are some ECKists who have grown too fond of the quiescent state
> of mind; they make no effort to advance beyond it and not infrequently
> develop the illusion that they have attained the goal of God-
> Realisation."
>
>  ... plus the next two paragraphs on that page 97 of the SKS book 2..
> explains how one might get stuck in their spiritual exercises and
> imagine lots is happening when really nothing much at all is.

In full the paragraph you allude to reads:

"There are three errors which can arise in doing the Spiritual
Exercises of ECK. These are overfondness for analyzing thought and
thought processes, an overfondness for
reflecting upon the analysis, and an overfondness for the quiescent
state of mind. When the ECKist grows too fond of, and becomes
habituated to, any of these three errors or all of them and attached
to any or all, he is prevented from further progress on the path of
ECK."

Any ECKist who wishes to grow spiritually must do the Spiritual
Exercises of ECK every day. This simple truth has been at the heart of
the modern day teachings since the very beginning.

[signon77]

On Feb 28, 9:20 pm, Santim Vah <sean.arund...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, all of it makes for good advice, separately or combined, with the
> key words to the wisdom therein being *attached to any or all*; only
> to be found by the individual by some open-minded self-reflection with
> some perspective.

>
> > Any ECKist who wishes to grow spiritually must do the Spiritual
> > Exercises of ECK every day. This simple truth has been at the heart of
> > the modern day teachings since the very beginning.
>

> *must do* ???
>
> A contemplation on Paul's other tips about *habits* and *randomity*
> also apply here.
>
> There are no *simple truths* here, only simple words and phrases
> repeated adnauseum as a catch cry that eventually lose their vigour to
> become a marketing line with no more meaning than Coke adds Life or an
> apple a day keeps the doctor away.
>
> Being aware of this can also help, and provide a clue as to how and
> why Milarepa was given the label of an Eck Master.http://books.google.com.au/books?id=lKvMprdHoZMC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&d...

Only a non-ECKist or an ECKist on the fringes of the religion would
dispute the necessity doing the Spiritual Exercises of ECK on a daily
basis. No one else.

[signon77]

On Feb 28, 9:20 pm, Santim Vah <sean.arund...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 28, 11:24 pm, signon77 <signo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Yes, all of it makes for good advice, separately or combined, with the
> key words to the wisdom therein being *attached to any or all*; only
> to be found by the individual by some open-minded self-reflection with
> some perspective.
>

> > Any ECKist who wishes to grow spiritually must do the Spiritual
> > Exercises of ECK every day. This simple truth has been at the heart of
> > the modern day teachings since the very beginning.
>

> *must do* ???
>
> A contemplation on Paul's other tips about *habits* and *randomity*
> also apply here.
>
> There are no *simple truths* here, only simple words and phrases
> repeated adnauseum as a catch cry that eventually lose their vigour to
> become a marketing line with no more meaning than Coke adds Life or an
> apple a day keeps the doctor away.
>
> Being aware of this can also help, and provide a clue as to how and
> why Milarepa was given the label of an Eck Master.http://books.google.com.au/books?id=lKvMprdHoZMC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&d...

It's a very simple truth indeed, in my opinion that only non-ECKists
or ECKists on the fringe of the religion would dispute. Doing the
Spiritual Exercises of the ECK on a daily basis is vital to spiritual
unfoldment.

[Etznab]

***

"[...] The three errors are: over-fondness for analysing thoughts and
thought-processes; over-fondness for reflecting upon the analysis; and
over-fondness for the quiescent state of mind. (See p. 329 1.) Any of
these conditions, when the yogin grows habituated and attached to it,
prevents further progress on the Path. [....]"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35504018/Tibetan-Yoga-and-Secret-Doctrines

TIBETAN YOGA
AND SECRET DOCTRINES
Second Edition
Seven Books of Wisdom of the Great Path
Arranged and edited by W. Y. Evans-Wentz

Seven authentic Tibetan yoga texts, almost unknown to the occidental
world until their first publication in English in 1935, are now
available in this Galaxy Book edition. [....]"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35504018/Tibetan-Yoga-and-Secret-Doctrines

http://tinyurl.com/7toktsp

*********

In full? Perhaps we can compare the full mystique.

[Not Sure]

On 2/28/2012 5:06 PM, signon77 wrote:
> On Feb 28, 9:20 pm, Santim Vah<sean.arund...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 28, 11:24 pm, signon77<signo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 28, 7:56 am, Santim Vah<sean.arund...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Feb 26, 2:54 am, signon77<signo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> I think it's important for all spiritual students to validate every
>>>>> aspect of the teachings for themselves. How else can they be certain
>>>>> that their chosen path is real?
>>
>>>>> I think the strongest ECKists are those that commit themselves
>>>>> wholeheartedly to the Spiritual Exercises of ECK. As issues come up
>>>>> they can use them to get the answers to their questions.Dreams, Soul
>>>>> Travel and contemplation are ways of getting answers to questions. But
>>>>> without regular use of the Spiritual Exercises of ECK, it's hard to
>>>>> get them to work. For more information about them see here:http://www.eckankar.org/spex.html
>>
>>>>> Rob
>>
>>>> There are three errors which can arise in doing the Spiritual
>>>> Exercises of ECK ... overfondness, overfondness and overfondness ..
>>>> (starts page 96 SKS2)
>>
>>>> "There are some ECKists who have grown too fond of the quiescent state
>>>> of mind; they make no effort to advance beyond it and not infrequently
>>>> develop the illusion that they have attained the goal of God-
>>>> Realisation."
>>

>>>> ... plus the next two paragraphs on that page 97 of the SKS book 2...

>> why Milarepa was given the label of an Eck Master.http://books.google.com..au/books?id=lKvMprdHoZMC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&d...

>
> Only a non-ECKist or an ECKist on the fringes of the religion would
> dispute the necessity doing the Spiritual Exercises of ECK on a daily
> basis. No one else.

That's pretty much right.

[Santim Vah]

VERBALLING
The putting of damaging remarks into the mouths of suspects during police
interrogation.

The exercise within this little thread pretty well reflects the main
problems that Eckists face today, and how Eckankar the *org* has lost it's
essential vitality by having the Life wrung right out of it by incompetents
who don't even know the critical foundational aspects of their own religion,
whilst believing they are oh so right about everyone and everything yet they
cannot even comprehend what was being said. So much for being aware.

Not my problem. <shrug>

=================

It is I AMs concept of itself that determines the form and scenery of Its
existence. Everything depends upon it's attitude towards itself; that which
Soul will not affirm as true of Itself cannot awaken in Its world. KTE

Spiritual Law governs when and how a seeker makes the leap from his immature
beliefs to those of a higher nature that are very clear about an
individual's rights and responsibilities as a spiritual being.
Master 4 discourses.

The Law of Reversed Effort is the functioning of the imagination be negation
which draws into the external that which one is trying to avoid.

WE must make the mind one-pointed, as the Eastern adepts say, BUT nothing
mental should be strained. WE should never try to force results. We should
stick to our task and finish out the race, but never knock ourselves out
doing it. KTSWs

A mind with randomity can change under any circumstanc - this is a factor
which isn't very well known. But the higher Soul travels on the spiritual
path, the less becomes Its burndens, and the easier it is to chnage swiftly
from one course to another. A mind that moves with random speed works in the
field of randomity. KTE

The lackeys of the Kal Niranjan are misguided
in their search for truth because his region of
dominion is under the Law of Fixidity, which gives
the appearance of spaciousness, accommodation,
and completeness, but is set within a bowl of countless
restrictions not perceived by anyone but the
Spiritual Traveler.

The hidden ECK teachings have survived in a
hardened world due to their flexibility. It is said
that Taoism, the ancient philosophy and religion of
China, outlasted Confucianism, the moral and religious
system, because the latter reduced everything
to FIXED RULES.

ECK and life are flux; Kal and limitation are fixed states of consciousness
that try to build prison walls around truth.
ECK is not bound by the Law of Fixidity. Soul Travel 2 discourses, lesson 2



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6926 (20120229) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Not Sure]

On 2/29/2012 4:33 PM, sean.a...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 1, 2012 4:15:58 AM UTC+11, Not Sure wrote:
>
>>>

>>> Only a non-ECKist or an ECKist on the fringes of the religion would
>>> dispute the necessity doing the Spiritual Exercises of ECK on a daily
>>> basis. No one else.
>>
>> That's pretty much right.
>

> That's pretty much an opinion.

Yes it is :-)

[Etznab]

There was a letter by Paul Twitchell in the book: Letters to Gail, Vol. 1. In the book it was named simply: Tibet. The third paragraph mentioned Talbot Mundy and that his "books" were in the Public Library.

That letter to Gail was dated April 21, 1963.

I didn't notice the name Rebazar Tarzs in that letter about Tibet.

[Etznab]

Not sure if my post from today appeared yet. But in any case, here is another.

Quoting Talbot Mundy book:

[...]

"Three ways. Two are defeatist. One can dive below their influence, and go to the devil. Thousands of people do it; they drown in materialism; deserting, malingering, degenerate Jesuits do it themselves. Another way is, to oppose, be beaten, and surrender: become a meek lamb and wait until you are dead to find out what it is that you bought by surrendering your soul to trustees. Or, you can rise above it. Not even a Jesuit can out-think, or out-pray you, if you refuse to meet him on his own ground. Take higher ground. One only learns by experience how to avoid being caught. If a Jesuit knew there is a higher ground, he would get there first and have a sheepfold all ready to herd you into. They are good shepherds, if you like being a sheep. Their strength consists in thought-propaganda, which is far more powerful than the spoken or printed word. Propaganda, even when true, is a form of violence, which is a product of impatience, which in turn is sacrifice to fear." [....]

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy - 1940, p. 23

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Quoting Paul Twitchell book:

I [Paul Twitchell] said, "But there are tactics as well as strategies to get around the influence of such highly organized thinking. One can dive below the influence of these highly trained groups and go the way of the negative god, Kal Niranjan. Another way is to oppose, be beaten and surrender: become the meek lamb and wait until we are dead to find out what it was that we bought by surrendering ourselves to trustees. These are the ways of the defeatists.

"But we can rise above it, via ECK. Not even a holy man, a demigod,or any group can outthink, or outpray a person, if he refuses to meet them on their own grounds. He should do so only on the higher grounds. One can only learn by experience how to avoid the traps on any level. If a group-thinker knows there is a higher ground, he will be there first with a sheepfold all ready to herd in anyone else who arrives. They are the good shepherds, if you like being a sheep. Their strength is based on thought-propaganda, which is far more powerful than the spoken or printed word." [....]

The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968 - Fifth Printing 2003, pp. 23-24.

The above "Eckankar" example illustrates Paul Twitchell speaking. Yet, one really need follow the discussion where Rebazar Tarzs picks up just after that and compare with Mundy's book on p. 23 for greater context.

I don't know what you call this ... what Paul Twitchell appears to have done. In my opinion these two texts need to be illustrated side by side (to do them justice) and added to the record for educational purposes. This is history - these comparisons - and I see them adding to the "history" of Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs.

Why didn't some other Eckist go out and find this type of stuff and share it here? Doesn't fit the popular meme?

By the way, Paul Twitchell mentioned something about Talbot Mundy's FICTION BOOKS on Tibet in his April 21st, 1963 letter (3rd paragraph) to Gail. This confirms he was familiar with Talbot Mundy and that his books were in the Public Library.

Fiction + Fiction = MORE FICTION, IMHO.

[Etznab]

"I am beginning to. Does it always work?"

"You mean for beginners like you and me? No indeed! Not in one lifetime! Not in this world! We have a long way to go before we can finish that part of our education. So we had better get a good start, hadn't we?"

"But if it's really true, why doesn't it always work?"

"Does the Golden Rule work when applied by a conceited egotist? Torquemada thought he was obeying the Golden Rule when he tortured heretics. The rule is really so simple that the complicated illusion of personality blinds us to it. We can only learn gradually, little by little. But each little that we learn is one step on the road of evolution."

Someone asks two questions and someone else responds. The questions are the same. The answers are basically the same. However, the "dialogue" appears in two different books, by two different authors, and the characters are not the same.

[...]

"I am beginning to. Does it always work?"

"You mean for beginners like you and me? No indeed! Not in one lifetime! Not in this world! We have a long way to go before we can finish that part of our education. So we had better get a good start, hadn't we?"

"But if it's really true, why doesn't it always work?"

"Does the Golden Rule work when applied by a conceited egotist? Torquemada thought he was obeying the Golden Rule when he tortured heretics. The rule is really so simple that the complicated illusion of personality blinds us to it. We can only learn gradually, little by little. But each little that we learn is one step on the road of evolution." [....]

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy, p. 23

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Why is that dialogue (written in a book from 1940)so similar to the following dialogue between Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs (written in a book from 1968)?


[...]

"I am beginning to. Does it always work?"

Rebazar Tarzs said, "The neophytes, the beginners on the path, the ones just starting, have a long way to go before they can get to this level of God."

I asked, "But if it's really true, why doesn't it always work?"

The Master answered, "Does the Golden Rule work when applied by a conceited egotist? Torquemada thought he was obeying the Golden Rule when he tortured heretics. The rule is really so subtle that the complicated illusion of personality blinds us to it. We can learn gradually, little by little, and each little bit that we learn is an unfoldment of God" [....]

Paul Twitchell, The Key to Eckankar (1968), 5th Printing 2003, p. 24

*********

Here is a picture of Rebazar Tarzs.

Someone asks two questions and someone else responds. The questions are the same. The answers are basically the same. However, the "dialogue" appears in two different books, by two different authors, and the characters are not the same.

[...]

"I am beginning to. Does it always work?"

"You mean for beginners like you and me? No indeed! Not in one lifetime! Not in this world! We have a long way to go before we can finish that part of our education. So we had better get a good start, hadn't we?"

"But if it's really true, why doesn't it always work?"

"Does the Golden Rule work when applied by a conceited egotist? Torquemada thought he was obeying the Golden Rule when he tortured heretics. The rule is really so simple that the complicated illusion of personality blinds us to it. We can only learn gradually, little by little. But each little that we learn is one step on the road of evolution." [....]

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy, p. 23

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Why is that dialogue (written in a book from 1940)so similar to the following dialogue between Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs (written in a book from 1968)?


[...]

"I am beginning to. Does it always work?"

Rebazar Tarzs said, "The neophytes, the beginners on the path, the ones just starting, have a long way to go before they can get to this level of God."

I asked, "But if it's really true, why doesn't it always work?"

The Master answered, "Does the Golden Rule work when applied by a conceited egotist? Torquemada thought he was obeying the Golden Rule when he tortured heretics. The rule is really so subtle that the complicated illusion of personality blinds us to it. We can learn gradually, little by little, and each little bit that we learn is an unfoldment of God" [....]

Paul Twitchell, The Key to Eckankar (1968), 5th Printing 2003, p. 24

*********

Here is a picture of Rebazar Tarzs.

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html

Rebazar Tarzs, I have heard, was / is a Tibetan lama over 500-yrs old. I read about how he taught Paul Twitchell, the modern day founder of Eckankar. When I discover that Paul Twitchell was taught by books and a good quantity of material he shared came from books, it doesn't look like the same picture about Eck Masters as I was taught.

How many more sections from Talbot Mundy's book are similar to, or identical to, what Paul Twitchell gave (via R.T.) in The Key to Eckankar? Far as I know there hasn't been a lot of discussion about Old Ugly Face as a possible source for Paul Twitchell's writings. Most people familiar with the subject (IMO) know about other author's and books; some of them listed by Doug Marman. I didn't see Talbot Mundy on the list, however.

http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

And I'm not sure that David Lane, or others, looked at this source either.

The Key to Eckankar (1968) was a very early Eckankar book, one come out after The Tiger's Fang (1967), but before the Far Country (1971?)

... still finding material.

[Etznab]

This post was sent over half an hour BEFORE the one it appeared AFTER. In other words, it took a while to get here.

[Santim Vah]

RE:

"Propaganda, even when true, is a form of violence, which is a product of
impatience, which in turn is sacrifice to fear." [....]

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy - 1940, p. 23

Nice quote that. :-)

Fiction + More Fiction = A Double Bind

some quotes from Harold's Inrtoduction for The Key to Eckankar .... written
in 1992

"First printed in 1968, TKTE was one of the early books that introduced
people to that wonderful Tibetan Master, Rebazar Tarzs. His CONVERSATION
with Paul is a HISTORICAL DOCUMENT that reflects Paul Twitchell's state of
consciousness at that time."

[ That is his SOC in 1968, after he was supposed to be the Living ECK Master
and Mahanta. Of course some may say it reflects Paul's soc in 1963 which is
the time in which this book is supposed to be set in, ie in Seattle WA.
Unfortuneately that is, what is know in the vernacular as, *untrue* and
simply more of the same fiction.]

Harold continues ... "A small but important book, it is a good start for the
individual who wants to measure himself alongside Paul, who is certain to be
reckoned as THE spiritual giant of his age."

[ah huh, well ok then.]

"....Rebazar TALKS interchangeably of ... "
"Heady reading, the DIALOGUE between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul is best read a
little at a time. One may reflect upon the statements that seem to be
obscure. But every WORD in this CONVERSATION is important, for Rebazar
outlines the struggles one faces when he comes into the full scope of
God-Realization. .."

[ Heady ???... seem to be obscure???? That's an understatement by some one
who is supposed to be God-Realised and had his own conversations with
Rebazar Tarzs along the way, as well as conversations with Paul on a bridge
in the late 1970's.]

Harold continues.. "How important is the reading of books and attendance at
lectures and classes on truth? Rebazar SAYS that the individual first has to
get *the CORRECT LETTER OF TRUTH* before he can live in the SPIRIT OF TRUTH.
He tells how this is done."

[Oh, r i g h t ... yes, a great point, is it not? ]

and lastly .. "If read and contemplated upon by someone who LOVES TRUTH,
TKTE will show him the way into the loving, but fragile, marriage with the
Holy ECK. Perhaps he will in time become a spiritual giant too." Sri Harold
Klemp.

==============

Interesting. Would it be redundant to point out that Harold never mentioned
one Talbot Mundy during his talk about the Astral Library, and the story of
how the great wisdom of the Shariyat is presented in EIGHT different ways in
written books for the variations in the SOC of individual readers? Probably
not, as few seem able to pick up on the details involved via the outer or
the inner.

It seems that many have troubles noticing that rather such information being
presented differently, it is in fact usually presented verbatim, almost word
for word as the original authors published it with the chnages most of the
time only being the switching some words into the newly created Eckankar
terms.

It is abundantly clear to me, that in all occasions where Paul writes "the
great ECK master said...." that what follows are in fact the words taken
from other people's books that Paul had read. And in most other ocassions
where Paul himself is supposed to be speaking/informing in his own words
that indeed those words too are the words of other spiritual teachers and
authors. He was a pretty good writer.

Of course, there are also ocassions when Paul speaks from an entirely blank
page; such as this on page 3 of The Key to Eckankar:

"My personal aquaintance with [Rebazar Tarzs] began several years ago in the
foothills of the Himalayas near Darjeeling. Since then, he has been near,
dictating much material about Eckankar to be given to the world."

"Years ago when I returned from England and went to the northwest to live in
Seattle, Washington, Rebazar Tarzs spent considerable time with me in his
physical body. It was a case of his manifesting suddenly in his body and
giving a series of talks on Eckankar, which were to be related to the world.
Finally, one night in late winter, he wound up the series. I have tried, as
best as possible, to SUMMARIZE THE TALKS here."

I simply ask this: .. What Talks?

What are the names of spiritual masters/teachers with a strong connection to
Darjeeling that were already known about and already written about long
before the 1960s?
http://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=darjeeling+spiritual+master

Given Harold has had access to Paul's personal archive, which includes
original manuscripts and editing of same, since 1984 I keep wondering when
and IF he will ever actually give out the *the CORRECT LETTER OF TRUTH* to
those desiring to live in the *Spirit of Truth* so that they can BEGIN to
share such Truths with others as opposed to the propaganda of same?

For surely it is clear to him by now, if not to a whole number of people
within Eckankar that Propaganda, even when true, is a form of violence,

which is a product of impatience, which in turn is sacrifice to fear.

It's not 1992 anymore.
It's not 1984 anymore.
It's not 1971 anymore.
It's not 1968 anymore.
It's not 1965 anymore.
It's not 1963 anymore.

And, it's not the 1950's anymore either.

"Some people wonder if El Morya Khan really exists. They ask if Madame
Blavatsky just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
report having met the Ascended Masters even before they ever heard of
Theosophy. They are real."

"Some people wonder if El Morya Khan really exists. They ask if Mark and
Elizabeth Prophet just borrowed a name from the Far East or Theosophy and
made him up. Yet people report having met the I AM Presence AScended Masters
even before they ever heard of Summit Lighthouse. They are real."


"Some people wonder if Babaji Mahavarta really exists. They ask if Lahiri
Mahasaya & Sri Yukteswar Giri & Yogandanda just borrowed a name from the Far
East and made him up. Yet people report having met the Kriya Yoga Masters
even before they ever heard of Self-Realization Fellowship. They are real."

"Some people wonder if Shri Jambavan really exists. They ask if Anton Tonz
just borrowed a name from the Far East or Hinduism and made him up. Yet
people report having met Sri Jambavan and the masters of Shangrila even
before they ever heard of Akshara Vidya. They are real."

"Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

"The perfect Master is an incarnation of the Lord. Just as the Lord
communicates His teachings to the Saints without the agency of speech,
similarly, the Saints impart their messages to their disciples by
means of internal experiences, and without the use of speech."

'Like God, the Master does not make use of speech or any material
instrument. He teachers the disciples without speaking.'

"The Master is formless like God and above the sphere of senses. He
instructs his disciples without uttering a word."

As Michael Turner suggests: Masters Communicate Directly - Soul-to-Soul

They do not need books to do it. They do not need fiction authors or modern
prophets to *dictate* their words, nor the stories sent in by students of
religion, for others to read.

Around the time that I was 8 years old I was lifted out of my body and
taught how to overcome the fear of astral travel and then soul travel by an
inner master until I could do this by myself at will at any time when
needed.

Many other things happened between then a finding the compiled historical
esoteric knowledge in the written works of Paul Twitchell, which were and
still are excellent resources and useful to many people, as much as they are
a distinct hinderance to others.

The very same inner master (for want of another word/term) who helped me out
as a child & a teen when meditating & when a young adult (during a NDE), was
the very same *speechless* & *unseen* instructor who confirmed that studying
Eckankar was also a good move in my early 30's. What his name is, is
irrelevant, and it's presence represents no particular religion, doctrine,
cosmology, or belief system. And therefore such inner guidance is always
outside the control and direction of any earthly priestcraft, hierarchy, or
corporation. Especially one that instills guilt, blame, a faux
all-knowingness, dependancy and fear.

Which is why I have oft repated here "Trust your own intsincts!" ... meaning
of course, to seek out, question, and to trust your own inner guidance.
That's real self-responsibility, and that also means there is never anyone
else to blame for your own choices of who and what you choose to believe.

In the meantime it's also good to keep in mind the ancient advice of "Do not
mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the true Light which illuminates
both the moon and the finger." <smile>

I really like Paul Twitchell btw. He did a lot of good, and helped a lot of
people. What others have done with his good work since then and what he was
pointing to is not his responsibility.
Peace.

but remember:

One only learns by experience how to avoid being caught. If a Jesuit knew
there is a higher ground, he would get there first and have a sheepfold all
ready to herd you into. They are good shepherds, if you like being a sheep.
Their strength consists in thought-propaganda, which is far more powerful
than the spoken or printed word. Propaganda, even when true, is a form of
violence, which is a product of impatience, which in turn is sacrifice to
fear." [....]

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy - 1940, p. 23

"But we can rise above it, via ECK. Not even a holy man, a demigod,or any
group can outthink, or outpray a person, if he refuses to meet them on their
own grounds. He should do so only on the higher grounds. One can only learn
by experience how to avoid the traps on any level. If a group-thinker knows
there is a higher ground, he will be there first with a sheepfold all ready
to herd in anyone else who arrives. They are the good shepherds, if you like
being a sheep. Their strength is based on thought-propaganda, which is far
more powerful than the spoken or printed word." [....]

The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968 - Fifth Printing 2003, pp.
23-24.

and <smile> ........


"Etznab" <etz...@aol.com> wrote in message



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6944 (20120306) __________

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:33:05 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
> "[...] Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-
> Vidya whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to
> take all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way.
> It's more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why
> the ECK initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh
> themselves.

> "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
> just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
> report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
> Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real.
>

> "Yet people report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever
> heard of Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
>

> Ahem ... I have something to report too. People read many of the same
> words that Eck Masters reportedly gave. And guess what? They did it
> years before there ever was an Eckankar organization! Moreover, they
> read the words written by real live living people who had substantial
> and verifiable histories. Not simply some artist's drawing, or what
> people imagined.
>
> For the record :)

Here is a better link for the "dynamics". Notice how similar are each one when compared with what Rebazar Tarzs gave in The Key to Eckankar.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2740749/Doctrines-of-Scientology

[Etznab]

Turning further in the 1968 book The Key to Eckankar, my Fifth Printing 2003 version has Rebazar Tarzs talking about "eight subdivisions of the survival dynamic" on p. 27.

Already in this book I illustrated quote comparisons between books by Neville Goddard and Talbot Mundy. Are there other books / authors with similar quotes?

Compare the eight dynamics with those of Scientology. Especially notice how many times the word "thrust" was used.

http://learn.scientology.org/wis4_12.htm

(Of course one needs to have The Key to Eckankar book for comparison. I don't know of an online copy at the moment.)

Btw, that may not be the best Scientology source for the "eight dynamics". I think one needs to find how these were first written up and the accompanying text that came with them. I don't have more time for this right now.

[Etznab]

Not sure if my posts are coming up in order.

However, compare p. 28 from The Key to Eckankar with Chapter Twelve of Neville Goddard's book (Chap. 12 is called Subjective Control. Here are two links.

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness#page/n29/mode/2up

http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfAwareness

*********

It is looking to me like Paul Twitchell was indeed the ...... compiler. And it also looks (to me) like he created a pseudo character by the name of Rebazar Tarzs. At least, this is how it looks to me right now.

The Key to Eckankar was a conversation between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul Twitchell? I'm not convinced that was really the case here.

[Etznab]

Found one.

http://tinyurl.com/6v7bs9m

[Etznab]

Quoting two excerpts. Apparently, both authors liked what was in this
paragraph enough to include it in their books. Did they both borrow it
from someplace else? Or, was it original to Talbot Mundy in 1940?

[...] "Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of the same
identical stuff. They all have vision. They see the same truth from
different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create blinding fear
that gives them power over others. It inflates the devils' feeling of
importance; and it makes the fools think the devils are the only safe
leaders to follow. But the vision of saints acts, by its own nature --
to use a feeble illustration -- like a prism letting light into the
darkness. It diffuses the material fog -- the fog that blinds the best
of us and makes us victims of want, and disease and crime. The vision
of saints lets in affluence and magnanimity and vigor. Naturally, the
devils hate it. If they can't pervert saints' vision to their own
ends, they try to destroy it."

Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy (1940), p. 16

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Rebazar Tarzs smiled. "Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of
the same identical stuff. They all have vision. They see the same
truth from different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create
blinding fear that gives them power over others, inflates the devils'
feelings of importance, and makes the fools think the devils are the
only safe leaders to follow. But, to use a feeble illustration, the
vision of saints acts like a prism, letting Light into the darkness.
It diffuses the material fog that blinds the best of men and makes
them victims of want, disease and crime. The vision of saints lets in
affluence, magnanimity, and vigor. Naturally, the devils hate it. If
they cannot pervert the saints' vision to their own end, they try to
destroy it."

Based on Rebazar Tarzs in: The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell
(1968), bottom paragraph on p. 14 (of the book).

http://tinyurl.com/6v7bs9m

*********

Original to Mundy? Or borrowed from someone / someplace else?

Paul Twitchell named his source as Rebazar Tarzs. No astral library
involved here.

Oh the mystery and mystique.

[Etznab]

Searched the Net to see if that paragraph existed anyplace else.

[...]

Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of the same identical stuff. They all have visions. They see these truths from different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create blinding fear that gives them power over others. Such fear inflates the devil's feeling of importance and it makes the fools thing that the devils are the only safe leaders to follow. But the visions of the saints, like prisms letting light into darkness, diffuses the material fog, the fog that blinds the best of man and makes men victims of want, disease, crime. The visions of the saints let in affluence and magnanimity and vigor. Naturally, the devils hate this. If they can't pervert the saint's vision to their own ends, they try to destroy it. [....]

White Eagle, channeled 1987

http://www.wingedwolf.citymax.com/inspirationalmessages.html

Umm ... Nice try, White Eagle.

[Kinpa]

LMAO thats funny! thanks for the chuckle Etz!

[Etznab]

It has been reported by some that the first mention of Rebazar Tarzs in a public document appeared in 1964. However, Letters to Gail, Volume One, mentioned Rebazar Tarzs in the very first letter (December 6th, 1962).

I've often wondered about that and whether the name was inserted later for the book version of LTG - which came out in 1973 (Paul Twitchell died in 1971).

Well, here is another mention of Rebazar Tarzs prior to 1964. It appears in the book version of Letters to Gail, Volume One. The letter for April 14th, 1963.

"[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy, walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"

Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971), Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell; copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd paragraph.

*********

Reportedly, one of the most plagiarized books by Paul Twitchell was The Far Country, 1971, when compared with The Path Of The Masters (1939), by Julian Johnson. Here is another passage from that book by Julian Johnson.

"[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus, who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy — walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of Rome. [....]"

Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p. 432, 2nd paragraph.

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

Notice in that version the name was Jesus. NOT Rebazar Tarzs!

Also notice what appears in the Letter to Gail version, by Paul Twitchell, immediately following where the LTG quote I gave left off. Example:

"When a man gains such self-mastery that he can do great things for humanity, I must admire his courage. It indicates a greatness of spirit, and a strong power of will. This sort of thing requires a heroism far greater than that which impels a man to sacrifice his life on a battiefield. We should admire his devotion to his ideals, and admire him for showing what a man can do through mental discipline. [....]" - LTG Vol. 1, p. 117

OK? Now have a look at what appears in The Path of The Masters book immediately following after the quote I gave from the same book.

"[...] When a man gains such self-mastery that he can sit for hours, or even days, at a time upon a block of ice, we must admire his courage, even if we do
not approve of his method. It indicates a greatness of spirit and a strong power of will. This sort of thing requires a heroism far greater than that which impels a man to sacrifice his life on the battiefield. We must admire that man's devotion to his own ideals. And we must love him for showing what a man can do through mental discipline. [....]"

- The Path Of The Masters, p. 432

*********

What I found of interest about Paul Twitchell's words to Gail was how similar were they to those of Julian Johnson. Moreover, how Jesus appeared INSTEAD of Rebazar Tarzs in the book by Julian Johnson (1939).

*********

Note to self: 41391720-6978294Jesus-RT

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:05:55 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:

> Some more examples of Rebazar Tarzs sounding like pages from out of a
>
> book.
>
>
>
> "When you know that consciousness is the one and only reality -
>
> conceiving itself to be something good, bad, or indifferent, and
>
> becoming that which It conceived itself to be - you are free from the
>
> tyranny of second causes, free from the belief that there are causes
>
> outside of your own mind that can affect your life.
>
>
>
> "In the state of consciousness of the individual is found the
>
> explanation of the phenomena of life. If man's concept of himself were
>
> different, everything in his world would be different. His concept of
>
> himself being what it is, everything in his world must be as it is."
>
>
>
> Neville Goddard, The Power of Awareness - 1952
>
>
>
> "When you know that consciousness is the one and only reality -
>
> perceiving Itself to be something good, bad, or indifferent and
>
> becoming that which It conceived Itself to be - you are free from the
>
> tyranny of second causes, free from the belief that there are causes
>
> outside of your own mind that can affect your life.
>
>
>
> "Within the state of consciousness of the individual is found the
>
> explanation of the phenomena of life. If man's concept of himself were
>
> different, everything in his world would be different. His concept of
>
> himself being what it is, everything in his world must be as it is.
>
>
>
> "This is the doctrine of ECKANKAR. Is it clear?"
>
>
>
> Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell in, The Key to Eckankar (p.6) - 1968
>
>
>
> In both books - in Neville's and Paul's - is the concept of creation
>
> being finished. Use this next page to search for the phrase creation
>
> is finished.
>
>
>
> http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfA...
>
>
>
> One example is Neville's Chapter 10 entitled Creation.
>
>
>
> CREATION IS finished. Creativeness is only a deeper receptiveness, for
>
> the entire contents of all time and all space, while experienced in a
>
> time sequence, actually coexist in an infinite and eternal now. In
>
> other words, all that you ever have been or ever will be - in fact,
>
> all that mankind ever was or ever will be - exists now. This is what
>
> is meant by creation, and the statement that creation is finished
>
> means nothing is ever to be created, it is only to be manifested. What
>
> is called creativeness is only becoming aware of what already is. You
>
> simply become aware of increasing portions of that which already
>
> exists. The fact that you can never be anything that you are not
>
> already or experience anything not already existing explains the
>
> experience of having an acute feeling of having heard before what is
>
> being said, or having met before the person being met for the first
>
> time, or having seen before a place or thing being seen for the first
>
> time.
>
>
>
> The whole of creation exists in you, and it is your destiny to become
>
> increasingly aware of its infinite wonders and to experience ever
>
> greater and grander portions of it. [....]
>
>
>
> Compare with Rebazar Tarzs on p. 10 of Paul Twitchell's The Key to
>
> Eckankar.
>
>
>
> "One must come to realize that all creation is finished in the lower
>
> universes. Creativeness is only a deeper receptiveness. The entire
>
> contents of all time and all space, while experienced in a time
>
> sequence, actually coexist in an infinite and eternal now. In fact,
>
> all that mankind ever was or ever shall be in these lower worlds
>
> exists now! This is what is meant by the statement that creation is
>
> finished. Nothing is ever created, only manifested. What is called
>
> creativeness is only becoming aware of what already is. You simply
>
> become increasingly aware of portions of that which already exists.
>
> In fact, you can never be anything that you are not already, or
>
> experience anything not already existing. The whole of creation exists
>
> in you, and it is your destiny to become increasingly aware of its
>
> infinite wonders and to experience even greater and greater portions
>
> of it. [....]
>
>
>
> *********
>
>
>
> It looks to me like (in these examples at least) somebody copied and
>
> paraphrased Neville Goddard. Is there another explanation why this
>
> Rebazar Tarzs (via Paul Twitchell) would use such similar words in
>
> such similar order as Neville? If Paul compiled from "remote writings,
>
> little-known truths, and the most accurate parts of what had been
>
> given in the past" then I suggest he - an ex pulp fiction writer and
>
> newspaper reporter, etc. - could have done this using a card catalog
>
> in the public library.
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/7zxfqxq
>
>
>
> ***
>
>
>
> Tag Mystique - Quote comparisons between Neville Goddard & Rebazar
>
> Tarzs

Ref# 41391720-9790-The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell vs. The Power of Awareness, by Neville

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:27:30 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:

> Quote comparisons between Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy and The Key
>
> to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell.
>
>
>
> "[...] happiness is either a fool's paradise, or else a by-product of
>
> continual striving toward spiritual consciousness. True happiness is a
>
> sensation of momentary balance. When we remember who and what we
>
> really are, we do no wrong and we injure no one. Even our worst
>
> mistakes turn out to others' benefit; and they become profitable
>
> lessons for us."
>
>
>
> Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy, p. 23
>
>
>
> http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
>
>
>
> http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy.html
>
>
>
> "So we come to happiness. This is either a fool's paradise or a by-
>
> product of continual striving towards spiritual consciousness. True
>
> happiness is a sensation of momentary balance. When man remembers who
>
> and what he really is, he does no wrong and injures no one. Even his
>
> worst mistakes turn out to be a help to others and profitable lessons
>
> for us."
>
>
>
> Rebazar Tarzs in - The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968, pp.
>
> 24-25
>
>
>
> ***
>
>
>
> Following along in both books it looks like a lot of paraphrasing
>
> going on when Talbot's work is compared with Twitchells. Here is
>
> another example.
>
>
>
> "Gradually, as we struggle upward toward soul consciousness, the
>
> illusion loses its hypnotic grip. We begin then to be free to think
>
> clearly and to solve problems sanely. We leave off trying to fill
>
> holes with shadows. Instead, we fill them with ideas that develop
>
> their own substance. But it follows that a clairvoyant- seeing on a
>
> spiritual plane but working for material personal profit -- and
>
> especially for dishonest profit -- is committing spiritual treason.
>
> That is why gamblers and spies and criminals who use clairvoyance, as
>
> many of them consciously do, invariably meet disaster. Clairvoyance
>
> perverted to treacherous ends becomes spiritual suicide. Sometimes it
>
> leads to the madhouse. It is always, without any exception -- without
>
> any possible exception -- ruinous to the one who misuses it."
>
>
>
> Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy, p. 24
>
>
>
> http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
>
>
>
> "Gradually, as man struggles toward God, the illusion of this life
>
> loses its hypnotic grip. We begin then to be free to think clearly and
>
> to solve problems sanely. We stop trying to fill holes with shadows.
>
> Instead, we try to fill them with ideas that develop their own
>
> substance.
>
>
>
> "Anyone seeing on a spiritual plane, but working for material,
>
> personal profit, and especially for dishonest profit, is committing
>
> spiritual treason. This is why spies and criminals who use
>
> clairvoyance, as many of them consciously do, invariably meet with
>
> disaster. Clairvoyance perverted to treacherous ends leads to
>
> spiritual suicide. Sometimes it leads one into the madhouse. It is
>
> always, without exception - without any possible exception - ruinous
>
> to the one who misuses it."
>
>
>
> Rebazar Tarzs in - The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968, pp.
>
> 25
>
>
>
> ***
>
>
>
> Some other examples (these are not all of them) I found interesting
>
> were:
>
>
>
> "Then were Homer, Virgil, and the ancients literally right? And the
>
> Bhagavad-Gita? Are there beings who guide and protect us Guardian
>
> angels? Did Joan of Arc really hear voices? What is a Master? Who ever
>
> saw one, and told, and got himself believed by anyone but yokels and
>
> nuts?"
>
>
>
> Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy, p. 58
>
>
>
> http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
>
>
>
> "You have asked if there are ECK Masters who guide and protect man.
>
> Yes. The ECK travelers were responsible for many of the works of
>
> Homer, Virgil, and other ancient literary and spiritual works,
>
> including the Bhagavad Gita. The voices which Joan of Arc heard were
>
> the voices of the ECK Masters telling her what course in life she
>
> should take."
>
>
>
> Rebazar Tarzs in - The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968, pp.
>
> 27
>
>
>
> ***
>
>
>
> "Didn't Shakespeare say a poet's function is to reach to heaven for
>
> ideas and bring them down to earth?"
>
>
>
> Yes. He said that. 'The poet's eye is a fine frenzy rolling -- ' "
>
>
>
> "So, did Shakespeare originate the ideas that his poems convey? Did
>
> Jesus originate the Sermon on the Mount -- or did he, like
>
> Shakespeare, take an ancient theme and hold it up to be drenched with
>
> Idea, like dew from heaven? Where did Beethoven go to find his Fifth
>
> Symphony? When great poetry and great music inspire you, what is
>
> conceived, gestates and gets born of that? -- The wrong thing or the
>
> right thing? -- Do you act nobly, or contemptibly, when you have let
>
> Shakespeare's or Milton's vision illumine thought and -- "
>
>
>
> He interrupted, growing irritable: "Then am I a ventriloquist's dummy
>
> -- parroting what's put into my mouth? -- A mere marionette -- one of
>
> the lumpen-proletariat who -- "
>
>
>
> "Some people are. God pity those who misuse them. But you can choose,
>
> can't you, between noble and ignoble? You understand poetry and music
>
> love them -- you can let them flow into your consciousness. What else
>
> stirred you to such undreamed of effort that you're here, in the wilds
>
> of Tibet -- instead of where?"
>
>
>
> "Are you trying to link me with some kind of metaphysical chain to Old
>
> Ugly-face?"
>
>
>
> "Aren't we all linked to the sun, moon, stars? Isn't Lobsang Pun a
>
> poet? Like you -- more so -- more intelligently -- doesn't he raise
>
> his consciousness to higher planes -- and see -- "
>
>
>
> "See what?"
>
>
>
> "As from a masthead -- past, present, future, all in one moment, seen
>
> from above, through the eyes of -- "
>
>
>
> "Whose eyes?"
>
>
>
> Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy, p. 59
>
>
>
> http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
>
>
>
> "Shakespeare says a poet's function is to reach to heaven for ideas
>
> and bring them down to earth. It is true that thought does not
>
> originate with man, but in heaven. Where did Beethoven go to find his
>
> Fifth Symphony? Did Jesus originate the Sermon on the Mount? When
>
> great poetry and great music inspires you, what is conceived,
>
> gestated, and born of that? You can choose between noble and ignoble.
>
> You understand poetry and music. Love them, and let them flow into
>
> your consciousness. So you see that we all are linked to the sun,
>
> moon, and stars. We can lift our consciousness to higher planes and
>
> see from above, as if from the masthead of a ship, the past, present,
>
> and future, all in a moment, through the eyes of Soul."
>
>
>
> Rebazar Tarzs in - The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968, p. 27
>
>
>
> ***
>
>
>
> FAQ from Eckankar Website has:
>
>
>
> "What about claims that the modern-day founder of Eckankar, Paul
>
> Twitchell, borrowed freely from other authors in writing his Eckankar
>
> books?"
>
>
>
> Go here to read the answer.
>
>
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#paultwitchell
>
>
>
> *********
>
>
>
> I tag this post Mystique.

Ref# 41391720-9790-The key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell vs. Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy

[Etznab]

[Etznab]

However, compare p. 28 from The Key to Eckankar with Chapter Twelve of Neville Goddard's book (Chap. 12 is called Subjective Control)

The Key to Eckankar - Paul Twitchell

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

The Power of Awareness - Neville Goddard

http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf

Ref# 41391720-9790-The Key to Eckankar, Paul Twitchell vs. The Power of Awareness, Neville Goddard

[Etznab]

Ref# 41391720-6961-LTG1 vs. TPOTM - Jesus vs. RT

[Etznab]

p. 6-7

"Let us put it this way - speaking in plain words, because I wish it to be understood - one man's meat is another's poison. Facts are nothing but symbols of the inner that Homo sapiens does not understand, but these symbols are purely reading material for Homo immortalis. The sciences, medicine included, are scandalously overrated systems for misinterpreting ascertained facts. Nine-tenths of any religious organization is designed to keep people mystified, because mystery holds loyalty.

Rebazar Tarzs in The Key to ECKANKAR, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1968, 1985 - ECKANKAR, Fifth Printing - 2003, pp. 6-7.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

"It wasn't guesswork. You saw it. Let's put it this way, talking in words of one syllable because I wish to be understood. One man's meat is another's poison. Facts are nothing but symbols of a metaphysic that we don't understand. Science, medicine included, is a scandalously overrated system for misinterpreting ascertained facts. And as a medical man it's my duty to say that Mu-ni Gam-po's medicine is an unscientific mixture of herbs that aren't in the pharmacopoeia and its use would be illegal in any civilized country."

[...]

"Nine-tenths of the secret intelligence trick is to keep your subordinates mystified."

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

***

That was interesting, I thought. Granted, Mundy used the phrase nine-tenths in various ways (Just Google search for nine-tenths and Talbot Mundy together), but then Paul Twitchell was known for paraphrasing, plagiarizing other people's texts.

[Etznab]

***

Sri Rebazar Tarzs was extremely pleased with himself this particular morning when I entered his little hut in the Hindu Kush mountains, overlooking the wild country of Afghanistan.
Seating ourselves in the hot sunlight outside the hut, the scenery distracted me for a moment, but quickly my attention returned to Rebazar Tarzs as he spoke.
"No problems," Rebazar Tarzs said, starting the morning's discussion, "of greater or of more moving import confront the spiritual traveler than those of the potential awareness of his own consciousness, of the deep significance of the place he occupies in the Far Country as a Tuza, and of the purpose he should first discover and pursue.
"This consciousness of the ECK is the primal metaphysical experience, which, while causing one to penetrate into one's innermost being, at the same time causes one to penetrate deep into the Far Country.
"The Far Country cannot be experienced as one does the physical universe, for man is such a part of the latter that he doesn't see what he is; in fact he aids in its formation, because he is, as it were, an actor in a kind of drama, the variations of which depend on his subjective life expressing its manifold incidents. His affective states are not to be considered as mere accidents, of interest only to himself, to which the universe remains impassive. No, for eventually he becomes the ECK traveler also, penetrates into intimacy with the ECK, participates in the innermost workings of Its life, and gains in the evelation of Its mystery. [... .]

[Rebazar Tarzs in The Far Country, by Paul Twitchell (1971?), Eighth Printing 1983, p. 209]

http://www.archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp/farcountry017342mbp_djvu.txt

- Observations - See also: Letters to Gail, Volume One, by Paul Twitchell, 5th Printing 1983, pp. 51-52; The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. I1, Paul Twitchell, Second Edition 1988, p. 149

NO PROBLEM OF GREATER or of more moving import confronts man than that of possible awareness of his own consciousness, the deep significance of the place he occupies in the world as a whole, and of the purpose he should first discover and then pursue.
This consciousness of Self is the primal metaphysical experience, which, while causing one to penetrate into one's innermost being, at the same time causes one to penetrate into the universe. We cannot behold this universe as we could some spectacle before our eyes, for we ourselves are part of it; we aid in its formation; we are — as it were — fellow actors in a kind of drama, the variations of which depend on our subjective life which expresses its manifold incidents. Our affective states are not to be considered as mere accidents, of interest to no one but ourselves, to which the universe remains impassive, for thereby we penetrate into its intimacy and participate in the innermost workings of its life and gain the revelation of its mystery. LAVELLE

The Path Of The Masters, by Julian Johnson.

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters#page/n7/mode/2up

"The discovery of Soul, the real self, is first of all an act of inward retirement; it is termed the going in, penetrating the first step into the God realms.
"We penetrate into an invisible world; but this discovery occasions anguish and it is presumptuous to march to the conquest of this inner world without very definite directions, very precise counsels hence the necessity, at first, of a spiritual traveler to give the right directions on the royal highway to the Far Country.
"The outward universe withdraws and fades away, as does the most beautiful scenery when the play is intensely dramatic; soon man experiences the joy of the revelation; the universe is no longer an object outside, an enigma to be solved; he no longer contemplates it from without, but from within. Its secret is our secret. This discovery, far from causing a sense of misery, becomes a source of confidence and of light. Man will begin to suffer, if and when he refuses to draw the satisfying waters from this well of happiness.

[Rebazar Tarzs in The Far Country, Paul Twitchell, Eighth Printing 1983, pp. 210-211]

- Observations - See also: Letters to Gail, Volume One, by Paul Twitchell, 5th Printing 1983, p. 52; The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. I1, Paul Twitchell, Second Edition 1988, p. 154

The discovery of 'self ' is first of all an act of inward retirement; it is what is termed the going in. "We penetrate then" — says Lavelle — "into an invisible world; but this discovery occasions anguish and it is presumptuous to march to the conquest of this inner world without very definite directions, very precise counsels — hence the absolute necessity of a Master. 'Whoever goeth on a pilgrimage needeth a pilgrim for the way, be he a Hindu, a Turk or an Arab' (Maulana Rum). Then the outward universe withdraws and fades away as does the most beautiful scenery when the play is too dramatic, but soon we experience the joy of the revelation; the universe is now no longer an object outside of ourselves, an enigma to be solved; we no longer contemplate it from without, but from within. Its secret is our secret. This discovery, far from causing us a sense of misery, becomes a source of confidence and of light and we soon begin to suffer when we refuse to draw from this well! So then, after having lived long in the world as a stranger, he who takes refuge in solitude perceives a new world welcoming him, and by and by obtains the direct perception of superior planes."

http://archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

***

My experience with Rebazar Tarzs ... Paul Twitchell (in TFC), quoting Rebazar Tarzs, quoting The Path Of The Masters, quoting Lavelle.

[Etznab]

pp. 109-111

"Now a study of the Divine SUGMAD is in order" said Rebazar Tarzs, dropping upon the floor and putting his legs one over the other in a lotus position [...]
"You don't find the SUGMAD through religion. IT's beyond religion of any nature, and nobody is going to seek for IT correctly when they know not where IT is.  
"The SUGMAD is beyond this world of senses, this world of eternal eating and drinking and talking nonsense, this world of false shadows and selfishness.  "IT is beyond all books, beyond all creeds, beyond the vanities ofthe world. It is the realization of the SUGMAD within oneself.
"A man may believe in all the churches in the world; he may carry in his head all the sacred books ever written; he may baptize himself in all the rivers of the earth, - still if he has no perception of the SUGMAD, I would class him with the rankest atheist. And a man may never enter a church or a mosque, nor perform any ceremony; but if he realizes the SUGMAD within himself, and is thereby lifted above the vanities of the world, that man is a holy man, a saint; call him what you will.
"I will add that it is good to be born in a church, but it is bad to die there. It is good to be born a child, but bad to remain a child. Churches, ceremonies, symbols, are good for children; but when a child is grown up, he must burst, either the church or himself.
"This realization of the SUGMAD must be explained to you. Most people have no idea what one is talking about, nor do any of the many writers who turn out reams on the subject have the foggiest idea of what this expression means.
"First of all, it is not a feeling. Secondly, it is not a metaphysical speculation, nor a logical syllogism. It is not a conclusion based upon reasoning, nor upon the evidence of books or persons.
"The basic idea is that the SUGMAD must become real to the individual. Not a mental concept of IT, but a living reality. This can never be until the individual sees IT. Personal sight and hearing are necessary, before anything or anybody becomes real to us. To practically all men, the SUGMAD is an abstract idea, a mental concept. But how can you worship a mental concept? When most people say they love the SUGMAD, they mean that they have a certain emotion, superinduced by suggestion. It hasn't got the least thing to do with the realization of the SUGMAD. [... .]

- Paul twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs in The Far Country (1971?), by Paul Twitchell, Eighth Printing 1983, pp. 109-111

http://www.archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp/farcountry017342mbp_djvu.txt

A REVIEW OF WORLD RELIGIONS

There may be a thousand radii but they all converge at the one center, and that is the realization of God. Something behind this world of sense, this world of eternal eating and drinking and talking nonsense, this world of false shadows and selfishness. There is that beyond all books, beyond all creeds, beyond the vanities of this world — and that is the realization of God within oneself. A man may believe in all the churches in the world; he may carry in his head all the sacred books ever written; he may baptize himself in all the rivers of the earth — still if he has no perception of God, I would class him with the rankest atheist. And a man may have never entered a church or a mosque, nor performed any ceremony; but if he realizes Godwithin himself, and is thereby lifted above the vanities of the world, that man is a holy man, a saint, call him what you will. ... I will add that it is good to be born in a church, but it is bad to die there. It is good to be born a child, but bad to remain a child. Churches, ceremonies, symbols, are good for children; but when the child is grown up, he must burst either the church or himself.

Since the great swami so strongly emphasizes the realization of God, it is fitting that we should try to make plain exactly what that means. In most writings on the subject, there is but little clearness of statement. That is because the writers themselves have never experienced it and they have but a hazy idea of what it means.

First of all, it is not a feeling. Secondly, it is not a metaphysical speculation nor a logical syllogism. It is neither a conclusion based upon reasoning nor upon the evidence of books or persons. The basic idea is that God must become real to the individual, not a mental concept but a living reality. And that can never be so until the individual sees him. Personal sight and hearing are necessary before anything or anybody becomes real to us. I have never seen Montreal, hence that city is to me only a mental concept. But I have seen London, and so that city is to me a substantial reality. To practically all men, God is simply an abstract idea, a mental concept. How can one worship and love a mental concept? When most people say they love God, it simply means that they have a certain emotion superinduced by suggestion. It has not the least thing to do with God-realization.

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

Text source for Swami Vivekananda's talk.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_1/Lectures_And_Discourses/Soul,_God_And_Religion

[Santim Vah]

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:51:55 AM UTC+11, Etznab wrote:

snippers

That's all good. I mentioned recently, maybe elsewhere, that I usually like to see what going on before or after a particular *quote* to be sure I understand what the real point is within the original CONTEXT.

I went to check the Vivekananda page. It appears both PR/RT and JJ skip the section that comes directly BEFORE and AFTER the quoted words of Vivekananda.

In the PROCESS of this cherry-picking they lose some valuable aspects to what Vivekananda was about imho; and it is very different than what both Paul and JJ are conveying in *their own impressions* ...

it goes like this .. in a FULLER more whole presentation imho.

---

In the New Testament it is taught, "Our Father who art in heaven" —
God living in the heavens separated from men. We are living on earth
and He is living in heaven. Further on we find the teaching that He is
a God immanent in nature; He is not only God in heaven, but on earth
too. He is the God in us. In the Hindu philosophy we find a stage of
the same proximity of God to us. But we do not stop there. There is
the non-dualistic stage, in which man realises that the God he has
been worshipping is not only the Father in heaven, and on earth, but
that "I and my Father are one." He realises in his soul that he is God
Himself, only a lower expression of Him. All that is real in me is He;
all that is real in Him is I. The gulf between God and man is thus
bridged. Thus we find how, by knowing God, we find the kingdom of
heaven within us.

In the first or dualistic stage, man knows he is a little personal
soul, John, James, or Tom; and he says, "I will be John, James, or Tom
to all eternity, and never anything else." As well might the murderer
come along and say, "I will remain a murderer for ever." But as time
goes on, Tom vanishes and goes back to the original pure Adam.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Can we see
God? Of course not. Can we know God? Of course not. If God can be
known, He will be God no longer. Knowledge is limitation. But I and my
Father are one: I find the reality in my soul. These ideas are
expressed in some religions, and in others only hinted. In some they
were expatriated. Christ's teachings are now very little understood in
this country. If you will excuse me, I will say that they have never
been very well understood.

The different stages of growth are absolutely necessary to the
attainment of purity and perfection. The varying systems of religion
are at bottom founded on the same ideas. Jesus says the kingdom of
heaven is within you. Again he says, "Our father who art in Heaven."
How do you reconcile the two sayings? In this way: He was talking to
the uneducated masses when he said the latter, the masses who were
uneducated in religion. It was necessary to speak to them in their own
language. The masses want concrete ideas, something the senses can
grasp. A man may be the greatest philosopher in the world, but a child
in religion. When a man has developed a high state of spirituality he
can understand that the kingdom of heaven is within him. That is the
real kingdom of the mind. Thus we see that the apparent contradictions
and perplexities in every religion mark but different stages of
growth. And as such we have no right to blame anyone for his religion.
There are stages of growth in which forms and symbols are necessary;
they are the language that the souls in that stage can understand.

The next idea that I want to bring to you is that religion does not
consist in doctrines or dogmas. It is not what you read, nor what
dogmas you believe that is of importance, but what you realise.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God," yea, in this
life. And that is salvation. There are those who teach that this can
be gained by the mumbling of words. But no great Master ever taught
that external forms were necessary for salvation. The power of
attaining it is within ourselves. We live and move in God. Creeds and
sects have their parts to play, but they are for children, they last
but temporarily. Books never make religions, but religions make books.
We must not forget that. No book ever created God, but God inspired
all the great books. And no book ever created a soul. We must never
forget that. The end of all religions is the realising of God in the
soul. That is the one universal religion. If there is one universal
truth in all religions, I place it here — in realising God. Ideals and
methods may differ, but that is the central point.

There may be a thousand different radii, but they all converge to the
one centre, and that is the realisation of God: something behind this

world of sense, this world of eternal eating and drinking and talking
nonsense, this world of false shadows and selfishness. There is that
beyond all books, beyond all creeds, beyond the vanities of this world

and it is the realisation of God within yourself. A man may believe in
all the churches in the world, he may carry in his head all the sacred
books ever written, he may baptise himself in all the rivers of the
earth, still, if he has no perception of God, I would class him with

the rankest atheist. And a man may have never entered a church or a

mosque, nor performed any ceremony, but if he feels God within himself

and is thereby lifted above the vanities of the world, that man is a

holy man, a saint, call him what you will. As soon as a man stands up
and says he is right or his church is right, and all others are wrong,
he is himself all wrong.

He does not know that upon the proof of all the others depends the
proof of his own. Love and charity for the whole human race, that is
the test of true religiousness. I do not mean the sentimental
statement that all men are brothers, but that one must feel the
oneness of human life. So far as they are not exclusive, I see that
the sects and creeds are all mine; they are all grand. They are all
helping men towards the real religion. I will add, it is good to be

born in a church, but it is bad to die there. It is good to be born a

child, but bad to remain a child. Churches, ceremonies, and symbols
are good for children, but when the child is grown, he must burst the
church or himself. We must not remain children for ever. It is like
trying to fit one coat to all sizes and growths. I do not deprecate
the existence of sects in the world. Would to God there were twenty
millions more, for the more there are, there will be a greater field
for selection. What I do object to is trying to fit one religion to
every case. Though all religions are essentially the same, they must
have the varieties of form produced by dissimilar circumstances among
different nations. We must each have our own individual religion,
individual so far as the externals of it go.

Many years ago, I visited a great sage of our own country, a very holy
man. We talked of our revealed book, the Vedas, of your Bible, of the
Koran, and of revealed books in general. At the close of our talk,
this good man asked me to go to the table and take up a book; it was a
book which, among other things, contained a forecast of the rainfall
during the year. The sage said, "Read that." And I read out the
quantity of rain that was to fall. He said, "Now take the book and
squeeze it." I did so and he said, "Why, my boy, not a drop of water
comes out. Until the water comes out, it is all book, book. So until
your religion makes you realise God, it is useless. He who only
studies books for religion reminds one of the fable of the ass which
carried a heavy load of sugar on its back, but did not know the
sweetness of it."

Shall we advise men to kneel down and cry, "O miserable sinners that
we are!" No, rather let us remind them of their divine nature. I will
tell you a story. A lioness in search of prey came upon a flock of
sheep, and as she jumped at one of them, she gave birth to a cub and
died on the spot. The young lion was brought up in the flock, ate
grass, and bleated like a sheep, and it never knew that it was a lion.
One day a lion came across the flock and was astonished to see in it a
huge lion eating grass and bleating like a sheep. At his sight the
flock fled and the lion-sheep with them. But the lion watched his
opportunity and one day found the lion-sheep asleep. He woke him up
and said, "You are a lion." The other said, "No," and began to bleat
like a sheep. But the stranger lion took him to a lake and asked him
to look in the water at his own image and see if it did not resemble
him, the stranger lion. He looked and acknowledged that it did. Then
the stranger lion began to roar and asked him to do the same. The
lion-sheep tried his voice and was soon roaring as grandly as the
other. And he was a sheep no longer.

My friends, I would like to tell you all that you are mighty as lions.

If the room is dark, do you go about beating your chest and crying,
"It is dark, dark, dark!" No, the only way to get the light is to
strike a light, and then the darkness goes. The only way to realise
the light above you is to strike the spiritual light within you, and
the darkness of sin and impurity will flee away. Think of your higher
self, not of your lower.

Text source for Swami Vivekananda's talk.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_1/Lectures_And_Discourses/Soul,_God_And_Religion

Now THAT makes far far more clear insightful sense than the quote from the Far Country book does ... any day of the week.

The impressions one is left with .. both with the content and the SETTING created by Paul with RT (and all this dialogue guff supposedly being such a wonderful grand TOOL for communication which it isn't imho ) ... are TOTALLY DIFFERENT.... and it takes people to totally DIFFERENT places of understanding.

One is sharing deeper wisdoms - a genuine *discourse* anyone could find some value in .... the other is selling a WHOLE new religion - with the writings being an endless array of sales pitches.

I can say that because, as Eckankar keeps saying the *true teachings* are not found in the writings but via the *secret teachings* .. and the only suggested way in those writings is to access those there secret inner teachings via the LEM with his *protections* as the Godman/Mahanta and thus becoming a member and ALL that comes by default with that *step*.

Julian Johnson was basically doing the same thing. It was simply less brash, and less abrasive, and less American in style. But it was still very much a *sales pitch* imho.

Thanks for sharing the info ... good stuff. :-)
cheers

[Santim Vah]

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:01:36 PM UTC+11, johnr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Has anyone tried to fish around Isherwood's version of the 'Gita for direct quotes?

Are you volunteering JR? :-)

I have no memory of anyone ever presenting such quotes.

Though it may be true that Eckankar is very much Hindu-Lite.

And apparently there really is no *Easy Way* either. :-)

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:27:30 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
> On Feb 22, 10:05 pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
>

> > On Feb 22, 4:33 pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > "[...] Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-
>
> > > Vidya whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to
>
> > > take all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way.
>
> > > It's more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why
>
> > > the ECK initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh
>
> > > themselves.
>
> > >   "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
>
> > > just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
>
> > > report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
>
> > > Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real.
>
> >
>
> > > [Based on: Excerpt from article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual
>
> > > Lessons) by Harold Klemp]
>
> >
>
> > >http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html
>
> > > *********
>
> >
>
> > > It seems there has been a lot of talk about Eck Masters being real.
>
> > > Based on other people's experiences. However, those experiences - of
>
> > > other people - are often less than tangible when another person wants
>
> > > to look at them for substance. A lot of times another person just has
>
> > > to take it on faith, or take them for their word. This is part of the
>
> > > problem though, IMO. At least, it can be this. Part of the reason is
>
> > > that one person is trying to imagine what another person said, meant,
>
> > > experienced.
>
> >
>

> > > OK. I have an experience about Eck Masters. One that I can illustrate
>
> > > by giving the words recorded by various Eck Masters alongside of very
>
> > > similar, if not identical words written by other authors.
>
> >
>

Ref# 41391720-9790-The Key to Eckankar (Rebazar Tarzs) vs. Talbot Mundy

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 10:45:49 PM UTC-6, Kinpa wrote:

> its all good and fine, both ways, either looking at the forms and
> plagiarisms, or relying solely on one's own inner experience, but imo,
> the most important and overlooked thing seems to be that the EK uses
> ANY image or form, to express ITSELF to a student, whether physically
> or inwardly, and even if that form was claimed to have lived, and
> never actually did because it is fiction, that doesnt at all imo deter
> from the spiritual value of the experience, and ill further point out
> that Neville Goddard got every single word from elsewhere himself,
> whether by imagination, copying in any way, or just plain personal
> experimentation and experience, he literally cant claim to own the
> words or concepts contained in his books, they simply are NOT
> his....and any spiritual discovery made by him (just for example) is
> not a new one in the general sense, it may be new to him, but he
> wouldnt be the first to realize it, so he doesnt own it.....so, what
> im saying is, that these experiences and realizations are there for
> the taking by literally anyone, and Spirit might well choose to use a
> "form" that is believed in, while being completely unproven to
> physically exist, simply because that form has an access point in that
> individual's consciousness which can be used for spiritual
> development.....i was at one time married to a person who had an
> experience with Rebezar without having ever read ANY Eck material (or
> even knowing it existed at all), and without reading ANY of the
> materials found to have been used by PT to write Eck books, and in
> this case the general mis-identification of an eastern or central
> asian figure doesnt work. This person was psychic, and so could see
> and hear inner figures, regardless of who or what they were, and in
> this case a middle aged figure, with black hair , mustache and beard,
> wearing a maroon robe was described, and the "name" Rebezeer Tarz
> said, from the experience....not quite "right" but close enough to
> make me wonder, and a good description...at a later point both of us
> were visited by this figure, we BOTH could see and hear him, and he
> wore Rebezar's "form", told us strange and seemingly unlikely
> predictions, which did come true, despite our skepticism, so, imo,
> regardless of whether or not he was a made up figure, he IS, now, a
> "form" that the EK uses in it's functions among souls......this isnt
> meant to disagree with you Etz, or anything like that, just to throw
> in another factor in the mix, one which cant be resolved by claims of
> pictures being seen, or books read, or words spoken or over heard,
> while those things CAN happen and be the case at times, they are not
> ALWAYS the case....so, IF Rebezar wants to come and speak to me, ill
> listen, as long as its the real deal and not an imposter, as i have
> yet to get any info from this soul that has lead me astray....this of
> course has nothing to do with your own search for verifiable facts
> about any Masters or in looking through the plagiarisms, it only adds
> one more potential explanation of such events...

"its all good and fine, both ways, either looking at the forms and
plagiarisms, or relying solely on one's own inner experience, but imo,
the most important and overlooked thing seems to be that the EK uses
ANY image or form, to express ITSELF to a student, whether physically
or inwardly, and even if that form was claimed to have lived, and
never actually did because it is fiction, that doesnt at all imo deter
from the spiritual value of the experience [...] so, what im saying is, that these experiences and realizations are there for the taking by literally anyone, and Spirit might well choose to use a "form" that is believed in, while being completely unproven to physically exist, simply because that form has an access point in that individual's consciousness which can be used for spiritual development [... .]"

[Henosis Sage]

--------------


AND OF COURSE .....

ENDLESS RATIONALIZATIONSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

NO PROOF

[Henosis Sage]

----------------------


"This person [ MATT SHARPE'S EX-WIFE ] was psychic, and so could see and
hear inner figures, regardless of who or what they were ......"

BIG CLAIMS REQUIRE BIG PROOFS

WHERE IS THE PROOF MATT SHARPE'S EX-WIFE WAS PSYCHIC AND NOT A LIAR
OR A PSYCHOTIC OR A MIND-READER OF MATT'S OWN MIND/BELIEFS?

HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ..... picking up on other people's thoughts and values.

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 23 May 2015 14:13:02 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

>
> Wow! Somebody is awfully desperate! LMAO! Unable to make a logical response without having to dig through everything I have ever said here?

self-importance
noun
an exaggerated sense of one's own value or importance.
"he was a big, blustering, opinionated cop, full of self-importance"

Synonyms for self-importance
noun conceit
pomposity
ego
egoism
pompousness
vainglory
vanity
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/self-importance

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 23 May 2015 14:18:40 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

>
>

So the pompous vainglory and delusional http://www.delusional.com/ Matt Sharpe
puffs himself up to blow more mind candy with

RE: and yet you have NEVER shown ANY proof that any ECK Masters do NOT exist!

Did I ever claim that eck masters do not exist?

SHOW ME.


RE: your "case" falls completely apart being that its evidence is PURELY circumstancial!


WHAT CASE?

I have a suit case. I used to have a brown brief case.

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by,
or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

Requires excessive admiration

Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations
of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her
expectations

Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-symptoms/

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 23 May 2015 14:30:46 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:


>
>

RE:

Proof? There is NOTHING that could prove the existence of any ECK Master to
you or Richie...you have both already decided what you see as being the truth,


AND WHAT IS THAT EXACTLY OH DELUSIONAL ONE?


and if you were to ever see or experience anything that disagreed with your opinions, you would refuse to reconize it, and then would rationalize it away, as you both do with everything else! DOUBLE STANDARD once again!


YOU WOULDN'T KNOW AND DO NOT KNOW - SO FUCK YOU & YOUR DELUSIONAL PSYCHOSES NEUROSES


Furthermore, what makes you believe that you deserve any proof?

HAVE YOU STOPPED BEATING YOUR EX-WIFE?


Did you fail to comprehend that I simply don't care what either of you think?

WHEN DID YOU STOP BEATING YOUR CHILDREN?


No one WANTS to prove anything to you, however, that does NOT in any way mean that proof does not exist.

DELUSIONAL PSYCHOTICS BELIEVE THEY HAVE THE POWER AND ALL KNOWING TO SPEAK FOR EVERYONE ELSE - MATT SHARPE HAS NO SUCH POWERS

Once again you seem to flatter yourself to think that I or anyone wants to prove anything to you!

I DO NOT THINK THAT - SO IT'S ALL IN YOUR OWN PSYCHOTIC HEAD
http://www.delusional.com/delusions/psychotic-disorders.php


And you will always take THAT as proof that no such persons exist, but that clearly displays that you have no logic to work with!

WHAT PROOF DO I TAKE THAT NO SUCH PERSONS EXIST? WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING
ABOUT ALL THE TIME HERE? YOU ARE BAT SHIT CRAZY, OBVIOUSLY, MAKING SHIT UP AS
YOU GO .. ARE YOU PAUL TWITCHELL REINCARNATED OR SOMETHING???



So you then comment on my ex wife?

DELUSIONS CAN GET EXTREME - I COMMENTED ON MATT SHARPE'S COMMENTS ABOUT HIS EX-WIFE.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT HIS EX-WIFE THINKS OR DOES AND I SURE DO NOT BELIEVE A THING
ABOUT HER JUST BECAUSE SOME DICK-WIT ON A DISCUSSION BOARD CLAIMS HIS EX-WIFE
SAID XYZ .. OR EVEN THAT HE HAD AN EX-WIFE TO BEGIN WITH.


That is desperation...why did you both refuse to answer any of the other posts? Scared?

WHY DO YOU ASK DICK WIT?



Have you noticed yet that there are still only 3 of you...no one else is coming here with any evidence of any sort to back you up....ever wonder why that is?
No, of course not LOL...

WHAT IS A THREE OF YOU?
I HAVE NO NEED FOR ANY BACK UP
I HAVE NO NEED FOR MORE EVIDENCE
I DO NOT WONDER ABOUT BULLSHIT

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
(that's a rhetorical question - no answer required - not interested already know what i need to know )


t thank you for once again showing that you consider any/all inner experiences as being fraudulent and mere creations of the mind....

I MADE NO SUCH COMMENT

EVER - GO FIND A REFERENCED QUOTE

OR - RETRACT YOUR FALSE DEFAMATION AND DELETE YOUR POST
(re-write it absent false claims being made about me publicly that
are not true and for which you have no evidence of me saying such a thing or believing such a thing.)

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU THAT YOU INSIST REPEATEDLY TELLING LIES ABOUT
ME PUBLICLY MATT SHARPE? (rhetorical)

THIS IS EXTREME UNETHICAL IMMORAL DISHONEST BEHAVIOUR AND IT WILL NOT BE
TOLERATED AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE DOCUMENTED AND PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST
EXTENT POSSIBLE UNDER THE LAW until hell freezes over.

WHY DO YOU INSIST ON PUTTING FALSEHOODS INTO MY MOUTH? (rhetorical)
IT IS DISHONEST DISINGENUOUS LYING UNETHICAL IMMORAL AND NOT TRUE.



that is an extreme prejudice....I won't deny that you have the right to go with that one if you wish, however, I see no one jumping ship due to your rantings....I also see a LOT of ECKists that still do NOT care in any way about plagiarism....I know that is hard for you to believe, and even harder to stand the existence of, but you get no other choice in it.....

WHAT YOU SEE OR DO NOT SEE IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS AND GIVE IT ABSOLUTELY ZERO
THOUGHT - NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS - DELUSIONS - FANTASIES -
DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR - OR TODAY'S PSYCHOTIC UNDERPINNINGS BUBBLING OVER TODAY.


thanks for the comedy routine seanella!


MY NAME IS SEAN - USE IT OR ABUSE IT - WE ALL REAP WHAT WE SEW

<smile>

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 23 May 2015 22:51:45 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> Yes sean, YOU fit every one of those criteria..what's wrong? Can't find any other way to deal with me? Back to the name calling and exhibiting Munchausen's Syndrome by claiming to be able to diagnose another's mental states, and of course in your opinion the other person is ALWAYS wrong, but you never are, despite the fact that you STILL simply cannot show anyone ANY direct evidence that supports your OPINION! Keep trying, the personal attacks mean nothing to me, but they DO very clearly show YOUR motivations and mental states! Keep going!

WEll you can't prove it. all you have is your own stupid opinion.
where are al your supporters here, i see no one.
everyone already knows your a fuck wit, so why would anyone bother with an idiot who has no proof anyway? plus no one on earth cares a rats what you think or believe or say. just another Munchausen's Syndrome defaming loser. Your abuse and defamations and personal attacks mean nothing to me or anyone else just endless psychotic gibberish by a fool who hear's voices tell him all these stories about Patricia, well where is Patricia Matt sharpe, present her here, no you can't because she doesn;t exist nor does the voices in your head telling you all about this patricia woman but YOU GOT NO PROOF just the bleating voices inside your daft head lunacy. HEY show me the way home to god, ask Matt Sharpe it's the second left after passing Patricia on the Freeway 5 miles past the Huddle House made of Marshmellows .... fucking idiot!

[Henosis Sage]

So where oh where are all your supporters whilst your empty the toilet mindspace talking away to people who don;t listen to your mindless ramblings about SHIT you got no proof of, just only your opinion about all these mind candy truths you call truth and a religion and high spiritual path but you got no proof now have you of anyone existing not even twitchell, show us your proof that twitchell was an eck master, where';s your proof that's klemp is the mahanta and when or when are you going to ask marman why he tells people that klemp is not the mahanta and why didn't rebazar tarzs tel you given how special you are and such a wonder from bring all these wonderful souls into eckankar to pay off all your lifetimes of karmic debts now repaid to the vairagi great ones who teahc how to be oh so mature, and sensible and detached and all and nice and loving and self-righteous and snivelling slime ball that you are with all your ECK Lies and your ECK shit and YOUR ECK stories and your eck fantasies about non-real Patricia's and other delusional horseshit that goes on inside your bubble space of personal insanity and your lies about rapes and god knows whatever the last passing astral entity wanted to take a dump with inside your head. you got nothing you are nothing just a smile ball tosser plugged into the lies and deceptions of fools and schitzophrenics and little psychic hot spots for thieves and liars and cheats and attention seeking scumbags like yourself .... oh dear what a fucker of a fuck up is you. oh dear the truth hurts doesn;t it? I find it absolutely hillarious watching your endless humiliation and laughing my ass off at your psychotic underpinnings as you slop down your gallon of bourbon ebveryday while prtending to be like a saint to the captured nutters on the LFN who dont; know any better about handling users liars and those who make false claims everytime they open their mouth to spew their poison sick lunacies of wise old masters telling them all about delusional Mice and patricia's and folks drinking habits and split personalities and disconnects and dreams and the long term drug abuse effects that hit people unexpectedly as they age into their ever narrowing life of narcissistic rage.

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 23 May 2015 22:51:45 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:
> On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 4:53:08 AM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:

> Yes sean, YOU fit every one of those criteria..what's wrong? Can't find any other way to deal with me? Back to the name calling and exhibiting Munchausen's Syndrome by claiming to be able to diagnose another's mental states, and of course in your opinion the other person is ALWAYS wrong, but you never are, despite the fact that you STILL simply cannot show anyone ANY direct evidence that supports your OPINION! Keep trying, the personal attacks mean nothing to me, but they DO very clearly show YOUR motivations and mental states! Keep going!

Well then BLOW ME and SWALLOW Matt Sharpe if all you have is Munchausen's Syndrome and Patricia and Mice following you around everywhere .... people in mental states shouldn't be throwing bat shit crazy hissy fits. and crying how every other persons opinion is wrong and requires PROOF and EVIDENCE when you have no proof you are even you and not a computer program. or ever had a wife in order to cliam an ex-wife, let alone children or a job, or are a member of eckanakr, .. zip nada no proof of nuffin .. in fact every day you look and sound more like dear old JR Clark/Dusty Jaxen spinnings wheels and gears inside an utterly screwed up head utterly screwed over by the likes of klemp and twitchell and marman by being such a dick weed you're claiming to be able to diagnose another's mental states, and of course in your opinion the other person is ALWAYS wrong, but you never are, despite the fact that you STILL simply cannot show anyone ANY direct evidence that supports your OPINION! Keep trying, the personal attacks mean nothing to me, HAHAHAHAHA I LAUGH AT ALL YOUR EVIL LIES but they DO very clearly show YOUR DUBIOUS MOTIVATIONS FOR DEFAMING AND DESTROYING OTHERS REPUTATIONS JUST BECAUSE THEY DON;T SWALLOW YOUR DRIBBLE ABOUT RT AND TWITCH and pay any heed to your obviously distorted psychotic obsessive mental states that need to harrassass anyass and everyone on a.r.e. because your life sucks so much you got nothing else to do anyway. Keep going! I find it all quite humourous and entertaining and laughable and about your typically low life scumbag standard intent on proving to the world your loving humility and deep deep surrender & committment to the cause. Goolly damn good job, you had better go and save the world now, they need you like never before oh super duper all knowing wise and enlightened guru one of light and genious and wisdom and oooddles of compassion that makes trhe Dalia Lama loo like a tight ass arrogant prick next to you ... wow how do you do it, and when will youi ever prove anything but the complete opposite?

oh damn typos, well tell someone who cares a second about fart breath here Matt Sharpe (shrug)

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 01:56:01 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:
"STOP DRINKING SEAN!!! Your drunken rants are silly...Patricia is your ex girlfriend....has she called you a shitter nutter recently? LMAO! Why are you so angry???"

YES FOLKS, THIS IS WHAT ECKANKAR CAN DO FOR YOU TOO ..... TURN YOU INTO A COMPLETE PSYCHO FUCK HEAD LIKE MATT SHARPE.

WHO IS PATRCIA MATTY ... PRESENT YOUR PROOF AND EVIDENCE .. oh damn don;t have none now do you? No a skeric .... Rebazar told you and he has always been so wise and right ... if Rebazar says there's a Patricia then hoe down Polly, there's a must a bee a Patricia ... hun, you know what I'm saying y'all?

dur plum ma, Isa eckist and dat makes me smart ma! dur shit ma, if I says sean isa drunk and rinking on da other side of da world MA, then shucks shit shure must be true cause my inner eck spirit thingy and Mapantsma doth tell me that IT didda.

Yeee haaaa ma .. ain;t life jist a GRANDDDDDDDDDDDDddddddddddd..............

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:02:36 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:
> On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 3:56:01 PM UTC, Kinpa wrote:

> > STOP DRINKING SEAN!!! Your drunken rants are silly...Patricia is your ex girlfriend....has she called you a shitter nutter recently? LMAO! Why are you so angry???
>

> Narcissistic rage = sean arundel!

where's your proof, you got none, just your opinion, no one cares anyway,
no one here supports you NO ONE, no one cares either, your just a lonely fucking loser.

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:06:13 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> Drunken ranting nutter shitter! So saith Patricia! I'm so happy that YOU prove to the world that YOU can't stand that I won't accept YOUR opinions about "RT and Twitch"...the more you rant, the more you display how much what I say truly bothers you!

HO HO HO MATT SHARPE CAN'T STAND IT THAT I TELL HIM TO FUCK OFF AND I DONT CARE

WELL GO FIGURE NO ONE ELSE CARES ABOUT YOU EITHER DICK WIT.

WITH ALL YOUR IMAGINARY FRIENDS LIKE PATRICIA AND RT AND TWITCHELL AND JR AND LONI .... YOU CAN;PT CANT STAND IT THAT NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD SUPPORTS YOUR OPINIONS OR BELIEFS .. NOT A SOLE NO WHERE EVER. JUST BORING LONELY RANTING BY A SHITTER WHO IS INTO MICE AND FAKE PEOPLE AND INSULTS AND FALSE ACCUSATIONS AND DEFAMATIONS AND ONGOING INTERNET HARRASSMENT AND ABUSE ONLINE .. WHAT A SICK FUCK YOU ARE, PRETENDING TO BE A SPIRITUAL TEACHER, THAT'S WHAT THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS WERE LIKE INSANE FUCKEN LOSERS LIARS AND MANIPULATORS AND OTHER DEVIATE SHIT .... CUT FROM THE SAME OLD CLOTH SELF-IMPORTANCE AND EXTREME PSYCHOSES & DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR AND HEAD FUCKED BY RELIGION. THAT'S OUR MATT, BELIEVER IN FANTASIES AND THE LATEST PASSING GOSSIP ON THE ASTRAL TRAVEL RADIO.

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:01:40 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

RE "Why does the mention od Patricia anger you so if it is false and was made up by me?"

Why do you get so angry about the untrue accusations made against you that you fcuked your own children Matt? can't you have any self control. after all it wasn;t so long ago that you stopped beating your ex-wife right, that;s why she left you because you're so extreme bat shit crazy like you are here .. talking gibberish all day about people who don't even exist except in your distorted head. Why you getting all so angry about tus, cant you just "let it go" ... dont say the word Vbairagi be an Vairagi Master matt, you know you can, remeber all those who have told you this is your time!!!

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:39:30 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> And what is YOUR excuse seanella? LMAO! Keep ranting!

HA, you have NO PROOF of anything. what excuses for what dick wit?
LMAO!!! Keep whining you little dribble of ass juices from a cow.

WHO IS PATRCIA MATTY ... PRESENT YOUR PROOF AND EVIDENCE .. oh damn don;t have none now do you? No a skeric .... Rebazar told you and he has always been so wise and right ... if Rebazar says there's a Patricia then hoe down Polly, there's a must a bee a Patricia ... hun, you know what I'm saying y'all?

What are YOUR excuses for NOT presenting YOUR PROOF AND EVIDENCE you needle dick delusionist?

LMAO! Why are you so angry Matt??? Have you got no self-control, incapable of detachment and giving people space? That's not very eckie of your dumbass now is it? can't handle being challenged huh? don;t know when to quit? Huh?

woo ho "I'm Matt Sharpe" and I cna call people funny names LMAO!!!
seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella
seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella
seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella
seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella
seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella
nah nah, na nah, naaaaaaaaaaaaa, seanella seanella seanella

And I'm an ECKANKAR Vahana being a Co_worker for the Mahanta Harold Klemp,
now ain;t I just GREAT n GRAND and GOOD and oh so right about everything and
everyone, i can even diagnose mental illnesses of others online and just accuse anyone I weant of being a criminal anytime I want and no one's gonna tough me hahaha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa LMAO !!! keep on ranting seanella seanella seanella

oh i'm so mature and nice, a wonderful person my mommy would be proud of.
I'm an ECKIST and I'm spiritually advanced in the art of Vairag.

Yes one day I too am going to be a Vairagi ECK masterr whne I grow up ... LMAO!!! Keep on ranting but no one cares about plagiarsim or what you say seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella

besides you don;t have ANY PROOF ... no one cares about the plagiarism, not anyone on this earth but YOU and no one supports you hahaha hehehehe LMAO!!! LMAO!!! Keep on ranting keep on ranting seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella seanella

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 03:01:14 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:
LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! HO HO HO LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! HO HO HO copied and saved and into the file it goes...why ARE you so often deleting your posts seanella?? LMAO! copied and saved and into the file it goes...why ARE you so often deleting your posts seanella?? LMAO! copied and saved and into the file it goes...why ARE you so often deleting your posts seanella?? LMAO! copied and saved and into the file it goes...why ARE you so often deleting your posts seanella?? LMAO! copied and saved and into the file it goes...why ARE you so often deleting your posts seanella?? LMAO! Drinking Drunken Drunk Drinker says Matt Sharpe

Ain't he cute for an ECKANKAR Vahana?

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:53:25 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

>
> Still name calling??? LMAO! Get a clue sonny boy, your amateurish and ineffectual methods are a complete fail! Do not flatter yourself to believe that I am bothered by anything you say, your never ending hubris is amazing! NOT the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

I unclog my nose in your direction, son of a window dresser. So, you think you could out clever us french folks with your silly, knees-bent, running-about, advancing behavior? I wave my private parts at your aunties, you cheesy-leather, second-hand, electric donkey bottom biters.

"Get a clue sonny boy, your amateurish and ineffectual methods are a complete fail!"

No chance yankee bed-wetting types. I burst my pimples at you and call your door-opening request a silly thing; you tiny brained wipers of other peoples' bottoms.

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:59:02 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 4:25:09 PM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:
> > On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:01:40 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:
> >
> > RE "Why does the mention od Patricia anger you so if it is false and was made up by me?"
> >
> > Why do you get so angry about the untrue accusations made against you that you fcuked your own children Matt?

> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not angry, you flatter yourself...the drinking is not helping your spelling I see...tsk tsk tsk...

>
> can't you have any self control. after all it wasn;t so long ago that you stopped beating your ex-wife right, that;s why she left you because you're so extreme bat shit crazy like you are here

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> I have plenty, you ought to be concerned by your own lack of self-control...like the one that makes you drinking from your waking moment EVERY day until you pass out drunk...throw in endless name calling and accusing things that you cannot prove LOL...and yet YOU claim that I am defaming YOU??? And you expect me to believe that you are suing me? Now THAT is truly hilarious!

>
> .. talking gibberish all day about people who don't even exist except in your distorted head. Why you getting all so angry about tus, cant you just "let it go" ... dont say the word Vbairagi be an Vairagi Master matt, you know you can, remeber all those who have told you this is your time!!!

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Can you prove that I talk to anyone that only exists in my head?? What makes you believe that I am angry? I am quite calm actually, that is what makes this so amusing! I am no master of any sort, and definitely not of the Vbairagi order, whoever they might be, I have honestly never heard of them......and on and on seanella rants away because he hasn't drank enough boubon to pass out yet! HILARIOUS~!!!

Can you prove that I deleted my own posts?

Can you prove I'm drunk?

Can you prove anything exists in your head?

Can you prove you have a head?

Here's a thought ... FUCK OFF you sick fuck!

I just love the daily delusional postings ....

"like the one that makes you drinking from your waking moment EVERY day until you pass out drunk..."

wow that's creative and imaginative .. got any more?

Like I bleach my asshole regularly too?

Or spit on the side walk? dig it all up Matt, all the horrible truths about seanella .... oh fuck make up whatever shit you willing to try on .... let the little entities natter away and pay good heed to those voices there. email patrciia ask her for her input oo ... more the merrier during a psychotic flip out ya' hear

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 23 May 2015 08:05:28 UTC+10, Etznab wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 10:45:49 PM UTC-6, Kinpa wrote:

Matt Sharpe/Kinpa claims: "that Neville Goddard got every single word from elsewhere himself"

PROVE IT, you can't, just your opinion, worthless. Making it up. Talking shit!

"This person was psychic ..."

PROVE IT, you can't, just your opinion, worthless. Making it up. Talking shit!

" he literally cant claim to own the words or concepts contained in his books, they simply are NOT his....and any spiritual discovery made by him (just for example) is not a new one in the general sense, it may be new to him, but he
wouldnt be the first to realize it, so he doesnt own it.....

SAYS WHO WHAT EXPERT ......... NOT MATT SHARPE surely?
Well then he can just try and PROVE IT, but he can't, just his opinion, worthless. Making it up. Talking shit!
boogie woogie goes the idiot ....

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 03:43:42 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> Bothers you doesn't it?

Does it?

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 03:44:53 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> Keep talking, you are OBVIOUSLY not mentally disturbed LMAO! NOT!

Don't you like Monty Python? Are they not mentally disturbed too?

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 04:02:23 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 5:23:25 PM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:
> > On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:59:02 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 4:25:09 PM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, 24 May 2015 02:01:40 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:
> > > >
> > > > RE "Why does the mention od Patricia anger you so if it is false and was made up by me?"
> > > >
> > > > Why do you get so angry about the untrue accusations made against you that you fcuked your own children Matt?
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > I'm not angry, you flatter yourself...the drinking is not helping your spelling I see...tsk tsk tsk...
> > >
> > > can't you have any self control. after all it wasn;t so long ago that you stopped beating your ex-wife right, that;s why she left you because you're so extreme bat shit crazy like you are here
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > I have plenty, you ought to be concerned by your own lack of self-control...like the one that makes you drinking from your waking moment EVERY day until you pass out drunk...throw in endless name calling and accusing things that you cannot prove LOL...and yet YOU claim that I am defaming YOU??? And you expect me to believe that you are suing me? Now THAT is truly hilarious!
> > >
> > > .. talking gibberish all day about people who don't even exist except in your distorted head. Why you getting all so angry about tus, cant you just "let it go" ... dont say the word Vbairagi be an Vairagi Master matt, you know you can, remeber all those who have told you this is your time!!!
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Can you prove that I talk to anyone that only exists in my head?? What makes you believe that I am angry? I am quite calm actually, that is what makes this so amusing! I am no master of any sort, and definitely not of the Vbairagi order, whoever they might be, I have honestly never heard of them......and on and on seanella rants away because he hasn't drank enough boubon to pass out yet! HILARIOUS~!!!
> >
> > Can you prove that I deleted my own posts?

> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, absolutely I can, via the technology of screen shots, and the fact that only your account can delete your posts, many of which have been deleted! pretty simple...

>
>
>
> > Can you prove I'm drunk?

> --------------------------------------------------------
> I don't need to

>
>
> >
> > Can you prove anything exists in your head?

> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Why would I ever need to? your bringing it up demonstrates your lack of intelligence.

>
>
>
> >
> > Can you prove you have a head?

> ------------------------------------------------------
> Of course I can

>
> >
> > Here's a thought ... FUCK OFF you sick fuck!

> ---------------------------------------------------------
> No thank you, I choose not to...deal with it

>
>
>
> >
> > I just love the daily delusional postings ....
> >
> > "like the one that makes you drinking from your waking moment EVERY day until you pass out drunk..."
> >
> > wow that's creative and imaginative .. got any more?

> ------------------------------------------------------------
> You mean to say that you love your own delusional postings? Because you know that you drink every single day of the week! I don't need to prove it to anyone, hell a LOT of people come here to read and laugh at your rantings on a daily basis, and each pf them ask if you are drunk!

>
>
>
> >
> > Like I bleach my asshole regularly too?

> -----------------------------------------------------------
> To be honest, that wouldn't surprise me one bit!

>
>
> >
> > Or spit on the side walk? dig it all up Matt, all the horrible truths about seanella .... oh fuck make up whatever shit you willing to try on .... let the little entities natter away and pay good heed to those voices there. email patrciia ask her for her input oo ... more the merrier during a psychotic flip out ya' hear

> ------------------------------------------------------------
> I am having no psychotic anything, and this is quite far from a flip out, keep drama-queening things up! Typical!



"via the technology of screen shots" .. wow but of course you don't care at all what I have to say.

"I am having no psychotic anything," LMAO! ha ha whatever you say Matt, can you prove that? Keep ranting


" I don't need to prove it to anyone, hell a LOT of people come here to read and laugh at your rantings on a daily basis, and each pf them ask if you are drunk! "

WOW, lot's pof people Matt? are you really that popular? Then PROVE IT, oh you can;t LMAO!

Each of them ask you if i'm drunk? Really well prove it. Go on.

Oh that;s right you can;t because your talking more endless delusional shit. LMAO! oh well keep ranting, no one cares about what you do or think or believe or claim or lie about. no one. it's al your wild imagination and voices telling you long winded stories about patricia and mice and stuff like that.

yes all very sane, NOT! LMAO!

[Henosis Sage]

come on prove it .. why are you not answering my questions?
too scared huh? can't answer them huh LMAO! LMAO!

[Kinpa]

Those posts keep on disappearing! I guess it's a good thing I already got screen shots of all of it! HILARIOUS! seanella running in fear!

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 May 2015 05:06:05 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> All of your questions were answered, and I am not deleting my posts..the ones you ARE deleting however, were already screen shot and saved, nice try, but major fail seanella! And I have already pproven that Neville's words already existed elsewhere before him, google about Abdullah, the Ethiopian Jew that was his teacher! SLAM!

RE "And I have already pproven that Neville's words already existed elsewhere before him, google about Abdullah, the Ethiopian Jew that was his teacher! SLAM!"

BULLSHIT, you proved nothing .. all you did was waffle on about some THEORY of yours, and that ain;t proof, you have proved nothing except you are a LYING dick head.


OH and you;re still calling me seanella, now aint you just so sweet and cute as a button.

RE: All of your questions were answered,

NOT ONE ANSWER HAS BEEN ANSWERED SO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, PROVIDE THE PROOF

LMAO! OF YOU CAN'T, POOR DIDDHAMS THEN.


RE: "and I am not deleting my posts..the ones you ARE deleting however,"

OH THE LIES AND DELUSIONS CONTINUE UNABATED

I AM NOT DELETING ANY POSTS - UR CLEARLY FULL OF SHIT. AGAIN! LMAO!

RE: were already screen shot and saved, nice try, but major fail seanella!

WHAT WAS?

WHAT FAIL?

WHAT A LYING DICK WIT OF A FOOL THAT YOU ARE.

EVERY POST YOU MAKE UP LIES AND SPIN AND TALK CHILDISH CRAP

YOU PUT WORDS IN OTHERS MOUTHS - MAKE UP LIES YOU SAY OTHER PEOPLE BELIEVE OR THINK OR HAVE SAID - WHEN THEY HAVE NOT

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I THINK OR CARE OR GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANYONE OR ANYTHING BUT YOURSELF AND COVERING UP FOR YOUR OWN STUPIDITY AND INCOMPETENCE

The Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why The Incompetent Don't Know They're Incompetent
http://www.spring.org.uk/2012/06/the-dunning-kruger-effect-why-the-incompetent-dont-know-theyre-incompetent.php

The Dunning-Kruger effect is the finding that the poorest performers are the least aware of their own incompetence.

"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision."

The quote above comes from the philosopher Bertrand Russell.

Psychological research has now shown he was right.

The effect has been:
"...replicated among undergraduates completing a classroom exam (Dunning, Johnson, Ehrlinger, & Kruger, 2003), medical students assessing their interviewing skills (Hodges, Regehr, & Martin, 2001) clerks evaluating their performance (Edwards, Kellner, Sistrom, & Magyari, 2003), and medical lab technicians evaluating their on-the-job expertise (Haun, Zeringue, Leach, & Foley, 2000)." (From Ehrlinger et al., 2008)

Why People Fail to Recognize Their Own Incompetence David Dunning
http://cdp.sagepub.com/content/12/3/83


The reason for the Dunning-Kruger effect seems to be that poor performers fail to learn from their mistakes.

The proposed solution is that the incompetent should be directly told they are incompetent.

Unfortunately the problem with the Dunning-Kruger effect is that incompetent people have probably been getting this type of feedback for years and failed to take much notice.

Despite failing exams, messing up at work and irritating other people, the incompetent still don't believe they're incompetent.

all this rubbish claims about Neville, ... no you go PROVE IT, you can't, just your opinion, worthless. Making it up. Talking shit! (shrug)

LMAO! you're incompetent, an idiot iow.

[Kinpa]

On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 9:46:11 PM UTC, Kinpa wrote:

> No, you are incompetent and unwilling to go and look...Read Neville's writings fool! He states these things HIMSELF idiot! In his own words fool! Making shit up? Not at all! You are simply too damned incompetent and lazy to do the reading...not just a fool, but a lazy one! One that has several people watching and reading his nonsense and watching him delete his posts! It IS funny however!

are you calling Neville Goddard a liar???

[Kinpa]

It would seem that you are, HE says HE got these things from the Torah, from the Kabbalah, and from the Bible..is HE wrong about himself then??

[Kinpa]

On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 2:21:58 AM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:
> On Saturday, 23 May 2015 08:05:28 UTC+10, Etznab wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 10:45:49 PM UTC-6, Kinpa wrote:

> > > On Feb 22, 11:05 pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > On Feb 22, 4:33 pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > "[...] Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-
> > > > > Vidya whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to
> > > > > take all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way.
> > > > > It's more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why
> > > > > the ECK initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh
> > > > > themselves.
> > > > >   "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
> > > > > just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
> > > > > report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
> > > > > Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real.
> > > >
> > > > > [Based on: Excerpt from article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual
> > > > > Lessons) by Harold Klemp]
> > > >
> > > > >http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html
> > > > > *********
> > > >
> > > > > It seems there has been a lot of talk about Eck Masters being real.
> > > > > Based on other people's experiences. However, those experiences - of
> > > > > other people - are often less than tangible when another person wants
> > > > > to look at them for substance. A lot of times another person just has
> > > > > to take it on faith, or take them for their word. This is part of the
> > > > > problem though, IMO. At least, it can be this. Part of the reason is
> > > > > that one person is trying to imagine what another person said, meant,
> > > > > experienced.
> > > >
> > > > > OK. I have an experience about Eck Masters. One that I can illustrate
> > > > > by giving the words recorded by various Eck Masters alongside of very
> > > > > similar, if not identical words written by other authors.
> > > >
> > > > > What about this? Has Harold Klemp (who doesn't use the Internet, or
> > > > > computers very much, on account of EMR sensitivity) researched the
> > > > > veritable trove of examples by Rebazar Tarzs that mirror words of
> > > > > other authors? Many who wrote their books years and decades before
> > > > > Eckankar was founded?
> > > >
> > > > > I hear a lot about Eck Masters being real based on unsubstantial
> > > > > information, or that which cannot be verified. At the same time, when
> > > > > substantial information is given and I am asked why do I focus on the
> > > > > form? ... I have to counter with: Why isn't it OK to look at the form?
> > > > > Why isn't it important to look at the recorded history and what the
> > > > > Eck Masters reportedly said?
> > > >
> > > > > Hey. I have gone and found out material about Sudar Singh ... and
> > > > > Rebazar Tarzs too!
> > > >
> > > > > *********
> > > >
> > > > > Here's a thought. Imagine that someone created a fictional story, and
> > > > > then ask: How can this story be substantiated? Put on your thinking
> > > > > cap now. Umm ... How about looking at the FORM that was used to CREATE
> > > > > it?
> > > >
> > > > > See what I'm saying? If a story is fiction and does not contain real
> > > > > living characters, with real living histories, then how can you ever
> > > > > substantiate them except by giving the literal text, or words, used to
> > > > > describe them in the first place?
> > > >
> > > > > The answer I keep seeing requires the use of imagination. And yes, I
> > > > > admit that with the use of imagination even fictional stories and
> > > > > characters can come alive - in the imagination!
> > > >
> > > > > I'm not looking for a fiction lineage of Eck Masters though. I'm
> > > > > looking for the real live living people who wrote / said much of the
> > > > > words contained in Eckankar dogma and teachings. The keyword here is
> > > > > real, and living people.
> > > >
> > > > > Now I will not default to fictional pseudo history / religion if (and
> > > > > when) that means overlooking the actual real living authors for much
> > > > > of the teachings I was taught in Eckankar for decades. And I will not
> > > > > do this for the sake of some pseudo man-made religious facade instead,
> > > > > or in order not to hasten the death of an ideal. Why should I?
> > > >
> > > > > Harold Klemp once wrote (see quote at top of this post):
> > > >
> > > > > "Yet people report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever
> > > > > heard of Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
> > > >
> > > > > Ahem ... I have something to report too. People read many of the same
> > > > > words that Eck Masters reportedly gave. And guess what? They did it
> > > > > years before there ever was an Eckankar organization! Moreover, they
> > > > > read the words written by real live living people who had substantial
> > > > > and verifiable histories. Not simply some artist's drawing, or what
> > > > > people imagined.
> > > >
> > > > > For the record :)
> > > >
> > > > Some more examples of Rebazar Tarzs sounding like pages from out of a
> > > > book.
> > > >
> > > > "When you know that consciousness is the one and only reality -
> > > > conceiving itself to be something good, bad, or indifferent, and
> > > > becoming that which It conceived itself to be - you are free from the
> > > > tyranny of second causes, free from the belief that there are causes
> > > > outside of your own mind that can affect your life.
> > > >
> > > > "In the state of consciousness of the individual is found the
> > > > explanation of the phenomena of life. If man's concept of himself were
> > > > different, everything in his world would be different. His concept of
> > > > himself being what it is, everything in his world must be as it is."
> > > >
> > > > Neville Goddard, The Power of Awareness - 1952
> > > >
> > > > "When you know that consciousness is the one and only reality -
> > > > perceiving Itself to be something good, bad, or indifferent and
> > > > becoming that which It conceived Itself to be - you are free from the
> > > > tyranny of second causes, free from the belief that there are causes
> > > > outside of your own mind that can affect your life.
> > > >
> > > > "Within the state of consciousness of the individual is found the
> > > > explanation of the phenomena of life. If man's concept of himself were
> > > > different, everything in his world would be different. His concept of
> > > > himself being what it is, everything in his world must be as it is.
> > > >
> > > > "This is the doctrine of ECKANKAR. Is it clear?"
> > > >
> > > > Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell in, The Key to Eckankar (p.6) - 1968
> > > >
> > > > In both books - in Neville's and Paul's - is the concept of creation
> > > > being finished. Use this next page to search for the phrase creation
> > > > is finished.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfA...
> > > >
> > > > One example is Neville's Chapter 10 entitled Creation.
> > > >
> > > > CREATION IS finished. Creativeness is only a deeper receptiveness, for
> > > > the entire contents of all time and all space, while experienced in a
> > > > time sequence, actually coexist in an infinite and eternal now. In
> > > > other words, all that you ever have been or ever will be - in fact,
> > > > all that mankind ever was or ever will be - exists now. This is what
> > > > is meant by creation, and the statement that creation is finished
> > > > means nothing is ever to be created, it is only to be manifested. What
> > > > is called creativeness is only becoming aware of what already is. You
> > > > simply become aware of increasing portions of that which already
> > > > exists. The fact that you can never be anything that you are not
> > > > already or experience anything not already existing explains the
> > > > experience of having an acute feeling of having heard before what is
> > > > being said, or having met before the person being met for the first
> > > > time, or having seen before a place or thing being seen for the first
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > The whole of creation exists in you, and it is your destiny to become
> > > > increasingly aware of its infinite wonders and to experience ever
> > > > greater and grander portions of it. [....]
> > > >
> > > > Compare with Rebazar Tarzs on p. 10 of Paul Twitchell's The Key to
> > > > Eckankar.
> > > >
> > > > "One must come to realize that all creation is finished in the lower
> > > > universes. Creativeness is only a deeper receptiveness. The entire
> > > > contents of all time and all space, while experienced in a time
> > > > sequence, actually coexist in an infinite and eternal now. In fact,
> > > > all that mankind ever was or ever shall be in these lower worlds
> > > > exists now! This is what is meant by the statement that creation is
> > > > finished. Nothing is ever created, only manifested. What is called
> > > > creativeness is only becoming aware of what already is. You simply
> > > > become  increasingly aware of portions of that which already exists.
> > > > In fact, you can never be anything that you are not already, or
> > > > experience anything not already existing. The whole of creation exists
> > > > in you, and it is your destiny to become increasingly aware of its
> > > > infinite wonders and to experience even greater and greater portions
> > > > of it. [....]
> > > >
> > > > *********
> > > >
> > > > It looks to me like (in these examples at least) somebody copied and
> > > > paraphrased Neville Goddard. Is there another explanation why this
> > > > Rebazar Tarzs (via Paul Twitchell) would use such similar words in
> > > > such similar order as Neville? If Paul compiled from "remote writings,
> > > > little-known truths, and the most accurate parts of what had been
> > > > given in the past" then I suggest he - an ex pulp fiction writer and
> > > > newspaper reporter, etc. - could have done this using a card catalog
> > > > in the public library.
> > > >
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/7zxfqxq
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > >
> > > > Tag Mystique - Quote comparisons between Neville Goddard & Rebazar
> > > > Tarzs
> > >
> > > its all good and fine, both ways, either looking at the forms and
> > > plagiarisms, or relying solely on one's own inner experience, but imo,
> > > the most important and overlooked thing seems to be that the EK uses
> > > ANY image or form, to express ITSELF to a student, whether physically
> > > or inwardly, and even if that form was claimed to have lived, and
> > > never actually did because it is fiction, that doesnt at all imo deter
> > > from the spiritual value of the experience, and ill further point out
> > > that Neville Goddard got every single word from elsewhere himself,
> > > whether by imagination, copying in any way, or just plain personal
> > > experimentation and experience, he literally cant claim to own the

> > > words or concepts contained in his books, they simply are NOT
> > > his....and any spiritual discovery made by him (just for example) is
> > > not a new one in the general sense, it may be new to him, but he

> > > wouldnt be the first to realize it, so he doesnt own it.....so, what
> > > im saying is, that these experiences and realizations are there for
> > > the taking by literally anyone, and Spirit might well choose to use a
> > > "form" that is believed in, while being completely unproven to
> > > physically exist, simply because that form has an access point in that
> > > individual's consciousness which can be used for spiritual
> > > development.....i was at one time married to a person who had an
> > > experience with Rebezar without having ever read ANY Eck material (or
> > > even knowing it existed at all), and without reading ANY of the
> > > materials found to have been used by PT to write Eck books, and in
> > > this case the general mis-identification of an eastern or central
> > > asian figure doesnt work. This person was psychic, and so could see
> > > and hear inner figures, regardless of who or what they were, and in
> > > this case a middle aged figure, with black hair , mustache and beard,
> > > wearing a maroon robe was described, and the "name" Rebezeer Tarz
> > > said, from the experience....not quite "right" but close enough to
> > > make me wonder, and a good description...at a later point both of us
> > > were visited by this figure, we BOTH could see and hear him, and he
> > > wore Rebezar's "form", told us strange and seemingly unlikely
> > > predictions, which did come true, despite our skepticism, so, imo,
> > > regardless of whether or not he was a made up figure, he IS, now, a
> > > "form" that the EK uses in it's functions among souls......this isnt
> > > meant to disagree with you Etz, or anything like that, just to throw
> > > in another factor in the mix, one which cant be resolved by claims of
> > > pictures being seen, or books read, or words spoken or over heard,
> > > while those things CAN happen and be the case at times, they are not
> > > ALWAYS the case....so, IF Rebezar wants to come and speak to me, ill
> > > listen, as long as its the real deal and not an imposter, as i have
> > > yet to get any info from this soul that has lead me astray....this of
> > > course has nothing to do with your own search for verifiable facts
> > > about any Masters or in looking through the plagiarisms, it only adds
> > > one more potential explanation of such events...
> >
> > "its all good and fine, both ways, either looking at the forms and
> > plagiarisms, or relying solely on one's own inner experience, but imo,
> > the most important and overlooked thing seems to be that the EK uses
> > ANY image or form, to express ITSELF to a student, whether physically
> > or inwardly, and even if that form was claimed to have lived, and
> > never actually did because it is fiction, that doesnt at all imo deter
> > from the spiritual value of the experience [...] so, what im saying is, that these experiences and realizations are there for the taking by literally anyone, and Spirit might well choose to use a "form" that is believed in, while being completely unproven to physically exist, simply because that form has an access point in that individual's consciousness which can be used for spiritual development [... .]"
>
> --------------
>
>
> AND OF COURSE .....
>
> ....i was at one time married to a person who had an
> > experience with Rebezar without having ever read ANY Eck material (or
> > even knowing it existed at all), and without reading ANY of the
> > materials found to have been used by PT to write Eck books, and in
> > this case the general mis-identification of an eastern or central
> > asian figure doesnt work. This person was psychic, and so could see
> > and hear inner figures, regardless of who or what they were, and in
> > this case a middle aged figure, with black hair , mustache and beard,
> > wearing a maroon robe was described, and the "name" Rebezeer Tarz
> > said, from the experience....not quite "right" but close enough to
> > make me wonder, and a good description...at a later point both of us
> > were visited by this figure, we BOTH could see and hear him, and he
> > wore Rebezar's "form", told us strange and seemingly unlikely
> > predictions, which did come true, despite our skepticism, so, imo,
> > regardless of whether or not he was a made up figure, he IS, now, a
> > "form" that the EK uses in it's functions among souls......this isnt
> > meant to disagree with you Etz, or anything like that, just to throw
> > in another factor in the mix, one which cant be resolved by claims of
> > pictures being seen, or books read, or words spoken or over heard,
> > while those things CAN happen and be the case at times, they are not
> > ALWAYS the case....so, IF Rebezar wants to come and speak to me, ill
> > listen, as long as its the real deal and not an imposter, as i have
> > yet to get any info from this soul that has lead me astray....this of
> > course has nothing to do with your own search for verifiable facts
> > about any Masters or in looking through the plagiarisms, it only adds
> > one more potential explanation of such events...
>
>
> ENDLESS RATIONALIZATIONSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
>
> NO PROOF

This is particularly funny, especially because YOU make endless rationalizations and that is fine for you, but if anyone else makes any that disagree with YOU, it is suddenly trash....and yet you have NEVER shown ANY proof that any ECK Masters do NOT exist! Paul Twitchell plagiarising and putting words into the mouth of Rebazar or anyone else is simply NOT proof! It is nothing more than an assumption on your part, and you KNOW this LOL! Neither of you have EVER shown ANY proof concerning the existence of ANY ECK Master without the necessity of plagiarised words....your "case" falls completely apart being that its evidence is PURELY circumstancial! NO getting around that one! Forget the ex wife! That is pure desperation seanella! And you might consider watching what you say about others, your words tend to come immediately back to you and slap you on the face!

[Kinpa]

Proof? There is NOTHING that could prove the existence of any ECK Master to you or Richie...you have both already decided what you see as being the truth, and if you were to ever see or experience anything that disagreed with your opinions, you would refuse to reconize it, and then would rationalize it away, as you both do with everything else! DOUBLE STANDARD once again! Furthermore, what makes you believe that you deserve any proof? Did you fail to comprehend that I simply don't care what either of you think? No one WANTS to prove anything to you, however, that does NOT in any way mean that proof does not exist.

Once again you seem to flatter yourself to think that I or anyone wants to prove anything to you! And you will always take THAT as proof that no such persons exist, but that clearly displays that you have no logic to work with! So you then comment on my ex wife? That is desperation...why did you both refuse to answer any of the other posts? Scared? Have you noticed yet that there are still only 3 of you...no one else is coming here with any evidence of any sort to back you up....ever wonder why that is? No, of course not LOL...t thank you for once again showing that you consider any/all inner experiences as being fraudulent and mere creations of the mind....that is an extreme prejudice....I won't deny that you have the right to go with that one if you wish, however, I see no one jumping ship due to your rantings....I also see a LOT of ECKists that still do NOT care in any way about plagiarism....I know that is hard for you to believe, and even harder to stand the existence of, but you get no other choice in it.....thanks for the comedy routine seanella!

[Kinpa]