"Eckankar Sources". Review & Discussion.

[Etznab]

"And, as I mentioned before, Harold also spoke with me about his discoveries with Paul's early life while he was uncovering them, and the many books Paul had used as sources for his own writing. Harold also shared the difficulties that arose between himself and Darwin during those times."

http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Twelve.htm

"For the reader who is interested in looking at how wide-ranging Paul's use of other materials really is, outside of the Radha Soami references that David has offered, here are a few of the books I have run across that turned out to be more than just a little bit familiar sounding:

"In The Way of the White Clouds, by Lama Govinda, a book about Tibetan Buddhist teachers, you will find the exact description Paul used when approaching Lai Tsi's cave in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. In Walter Russell's book, The Secret of Light, you can hear the words of Brahm speaking to you, just like the words Brahm spoke in The Tiger's Fang. Read Darkness and the Deep, by Vardis Fisher, and you will see the origin of creation as Paul wrote about it in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. A book by Edouard Schure, called The Great Initiates contains some of the same sweeping historical overview as The Spiritual Notebook. Manly Palmer Hall's Karma and Reincarnation covers the whole subject of nidanas that you will find in The ECK Vidya. Besides these, there are a few pages in The Varieties of Religious Experience, by William James, some sections from Ouspensky's The Fourth Way and In Search of the Miraculous, passages from Neville Goddard's The Power of Awareness and Awakened Imagination, and even The Bible has been a source for Paul. Lai Tsi's contemplation seed in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad looks very similar to one of the Psalms."

http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

"[...] Running across words from Paul's writings in other books surprised me at first, but I now find it an enjoyable discovery. [... .]"

http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

This is so enjoyable that even others are adding to the growing list!

Doug does not necessarily mention the sources discovered by Harold. But that he later mentioned the name Darwin, and "difficulties that arose", is something interesting to me.

***

Many things were made to look as if having come from Rebazar Tarzs and other of the Eck Masters. Even from Lords and beings on other planes of existence. And yet, now it is enjoyable and fun to discover real sources for Paul's writings. Even if the sources were not real living "Eckankar" masters, but passages from books written by OTHER real live living people!

How similar are books with inanimate masters speaking as if animate? Compared with inanimate puppets moved by animate puppeteers?

[Etznab]

* Some plagiarism sources noted as 'from'


The Drums of ECK 1970 (Novel)
Talons of Time 1974 (Novel)


The ECK-Vidya, Ancient Science of Prophecy 1968/1972
from F Homer Curtiss
Manly Palmer Hall (Mystic Astrologer Mason)
Julian Johnson
Tibetan chakras - Bhachacarya Wheel
and Symbols the potter etc


ECKANKAR--The Key to Secret Worlds 1969
from Julian Johnson
Shiv Dayal Singh


The Flute of God 1969
from Thomas Troward
Julian Johnson
Hazrat Inayat Khan
Hazur Maharaj, Rai Saligram 2nd SSG RS Agra
Swami Abhedananda
Bible KJB


Herbs: The Magic Healers 1971
from H.P. Blavatsky
and others

The Key to ECKANKAR 1968
from Neville Goddard (NTM)
Talbot Mundy (Novelist/Occult)
L. Ron Hubbard (NTM/Occult)
Joel S. Goldsmith (NTM)
WT Stace (Philosophy of Mysticism)
Seng Ts'an (Buddhist)
Christmas Humphreys (Buddhist)
EA Burtt' (Buddhist)


The Spiritual Notebook 1971
from Edourd (Edward) Schure
and many others


Stranger by the River 1970
from Hazur Maharaj, Rai Saligram 2nd SSG RS Agra
The Christian Bible
Shiv Dayal Singh (Soamiji)
Kirpal Singh
Charles F. Haanel


The Tiger's Fang 1967
from Julian Johnson
Talbot Mundy
Walter Russell
Ali Nomad (alias of Dr. Alexander J. McIvor-Tyndall)
Thomas Merton
Kirpal Singh
Shiv Dayal Singh
Robert Graves
Christmas Humphreys or EA Burtt


SKS 1 & 2 1970/1971
from Col. James Churchward (Mason)
Julian Johnson
Carl Gustav Jung
Vardis Fisher
Julian Johnson
W. Y. Evans-Wentz
Lama Anagarika Govinda
P. D. Ospensky
The Bible
Vera Stanley Adler


MAJOR BOOKS OUT OF PRINT - not for sale
Letters to Gail Vol. 1, 2 & 3
Eckankar Dictionary, 1973
Eckankar : Compiled Writings, Volume I, 1975
The ECK-YNARI The Secret Knowledge of Dreams, 1980 (PT/DG)
Letters to a Chela, 1980 (PT/DG)
DOBTLEM, 1980 by Eckankar DG
The Three Masks of Gaba, 1983 (novel)
East of Danger, 1978 (Novel)
The Way of Dharma, 1970 (novel)
The Far Country, 1971
Anitya, 1969 (with Helen Baird)
Dialogues with the Master, 1970
All About ECK, 1968 (107 pages)
In My Soul I Am Free, 1968 by Brad Steiger & Lancer Books

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/brad$20steiger|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/uPknEzb_5Co/LjpwMsHBmJMJ

[Henosis Sage]

-------

RE Marman, "[...] Running across words from Paul's writings in other books surprised me at first, but I now find it an enjoyable discovery. [... .]"

Well that's a lie. "Now" he simply ignores it. Can't face it. :-)
Marman has a lot to answer for (one day).

eg an extract: 2002 HOOKWINKED Doug Marman's Classic BS on a.r.e.

DL: Now, Doug, go review your allegations against me.
They don't hold up.
---------
You make a big deal about this Tiger's Fang incident, but when you
look at what I actually wrote you can tell it comes from two sources
whom I DIRECTLY quote:
Paul Twitchell and Reno Sirrine.
And they are properly cited and quoted.
thanks
--- --- --- --- --- ---
[ TEHA Note: Here's the KICKER FOLKS
MARMAN NEVER REPLIES TO DAVID LANE
Instead he RUNS and HIDES and AVOIDS CONFRONTING:
- HIS UNTRUTHS
- HIS DISTORTIONS
- HIS FALSE ACCUSATIONS
- HIS FALSE ALLEGATIONS
- HIS ERRORS
- HIS MAKE BELIEVE BS
- HIS COWARDICE
- HIS LACK OF INTEGITY
- HIS STUPIDITY
- HIS LONG TERM MISREPRESTATIONS
- HIS INABILITY TO ADMIT HE WAS WRONG
- HIS REFUSAL TO APOLOGIZE
THE MAN IS A FOOL - That is the gist of it.

I believe that Marman has every right to believe what stupid thing he wants to believe.
I also believe that Marman has every right to act and behave in any way he chooses to.
I do respect his human rights to be like that. I do not have a problem there.
There is no reason on earth that I have to then respect his beliefs, his actions or his ethics.
I do not. I totally reject his long term behaviour, his mythical thinking, his foolishness, his
laziness, his insulting words, his egregiously flawed judgements and I have called them out
for what they are here. And will continue to be critical of them and him as being 100%
responsible for them.
For the readers benefit though, I will explain why it is that he is so flawed here.
Marman still holds to a sincere belief that less than 1% of Twitchell's writings were verbatim
plagiarisms. He is wrong.
Marman believes that there was no Plagiarism in Dialogues with the Master. That it was a
true and reasonably accurate accounting of Rebazar Tarzs and other the Eck masters
speaking to and dictating to Twitchell the teachings of Eckankar. He is wrong.
Marman believes that the "examples of plagiarism" provided by Lane and hundreds of
others were only "isolated one off cases" of Twitchell drawing on the writings of others
"word for word". That the rest of those books were genuine accounts just like DWTM. He is
wrong.
Marman believes that Twitchell's Eck masters are real spiritual beings that do belong to a
spiritual hierarchy that teaches a thing called Eckankar, an enlightened and superior path to
God etc. He is wrong.
Marman still believes that the essential elements of Twitchell's accounting of his life in
regard to being guided by a Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs his entire life, that others in his
life like Hubbard and Kirpal Singh and Premananda were mere incidentals in his life, that
RT guided him to go to those "teachers" for a special spiritual Eckankar purpose, and that
Twitchell was destined to be the head of the order as the Mahanta, the Living ECK master is
true and valid. He is wrong. And on and on it goes.
Another permanent issue that causes serious conflict in Marman's thinking processes is that
he has an inability to read and comprehend what other people say to him. He can see this in
others, but never in himself. He cannot seem to help himself from misinterpreting it or not
even seeing what is being said. As such he goes off on wrong assumptions and deluded
thinking, endlessly tilting at windmills that were never there. He is wrong, but simply cannot
help himself. It's not always intentional, iow.
On the subject of plagiarism Marman has one singular problem - laziness. He has never
been willing to do the work required himself. Unless something was dropped in his lap, he
was never interested in looking or doing the research for HIMSELF.
Marman believes that an absence of evidence amounts to the evidence of absence - but
refuses to ever look for that evidence, or to see it when stuck right in front of his face.
Marman cannot tell the difference (or speak about it properly) between genuine verbatim
plagiarism that can and does amount to a serious Copyright Infringement; and the
"borrowing of ideas and concepts" from other writers.
He repeatedly CONFLATES these two very different things. He is wrong.
Therefore when Lane and others speak about "plagiarism" being word for word obvious
copying, Marman automatically DEFAULTS to discussing that AS IF the other people are
merely speaking about the similarity in CONCEPTS and IDEAS and occasional WORDS
being the same. He is wrong. And it has screwed up Marman head space since the 1970s to
today.
Lastly, the reader should be mindful that, like everyone else, Marman is just another
VICTIM of the deceptions of Twitchell as the first cause. The disingenuous manipulations of
Harold Klemp, Brad Steiger, Patti Simpson, Gail Twitchell and all the rest who have filled
Marman's mind with garbage, untruths, half truths and fraudulent rationalisations.
That is no justification and nor is it a compelling excuse for his own unconscionable
behaviour for nigh on 30 years now.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPbElNbGViQXMycnc/view?usp=sharing


---


2002-01-24 on alt.religion.eckankar Thread title - HOOKWINKED!!!
by JOE
The entire foundation of ECKANKAR was built on Paulji's plagiarism of
Julian Johnson and other writers.
Paulji's testament, THE TIGER'S FANG, contains plagiarized passages
from Walter Russell's THE SECRET OF LIGHT and Sant Mat books.
Where Paulji is telling us about his "inner experiences," he's actually just
giving us page after page of stuff he copied from books.
Paulji's other early testament to his alleged training with the Eck Master
On a.r.e. - https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/F1STMRaz6lQ/wkprB1U-3gEJ
"Rebezar Tarzs," THE FAR COUNTRY, is absolutely riddled with
hundreds of paragraphs plagiarized from the writings of Dr. Julian
Johnson.
THE SHARIYAT KI SUGMAD, Eckankar's "Bible," contains plagiarized passages.
ILLUMINATED WAY LETTERS, a compilation of a series of monthly letters
sent to the Eck membership, also contains plagiarized passages.
THE KEY TO ECKANKAR, an early Twitchell book, contains plagiarism.
ECKANKAR: COMPILED WRITINGS contains plagiarism.
THE FLUTE OF GOD contains plagiarized passages.
STRANGER BY THE RIVER contains plagiarized passages.
THE SPIRITUAL NOTEBOOK contains plagiarized passages.
ECKANKAR: THE KEY TO SECRET WORLDS contains plagiarized passages.
THE ECK VIDYA contains plagiarized passages.
LETTERS TO GAIL contains plagiarized passages.
THE ECK DISCOURSES contain plagiarized passages.
HERBS THE MAGIC HEALERS contains plagiarized passages.
[TEHA note: add to this list - Dialogues With The Master, Introduction to Eckankar, In My
Soul I Am Free, and every single Discourse Series ever written by Twitchell. It's not 1% or
2% of the text which is Plagiarised, it is closer to 90% ]
Those all are Paul Twitchell Eck books.
In each case, evidence of plagiarism is clear. All plagiarized
passages are from copyright protected texts, and Paulji is not on
record for ever asking permission, from any of the copyright
holders, for the use of their literary property.
All the major concepts of ECKANKAR: Uses of the Imagination, Ancient
Masters, Soul Travel, Inner plane experiences, inner Light and Sound,
Beingness... these can all be traced to Paulji's literary sources.
The fact is,
Most every book Paulji wrote on Eckankar contains documented evidence of plagiarism.

--- --- ---


TEHA Note: Jan, and Cher and others stated clearly NO, Twitchell did not plagiarise.
Their reference for that was Doug Marman's book "Dialogues" and his many posts to a.r.e.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/XyI2kmHvHxA/U-975HnpdRAJ

JAN (Jan4litsnd) replies to Joe
Is there plagiarism? --
The figure is relatively small compared to the enormous output of Paul
Twitchell. The current documented amount of known plagiarism by Paul Twitchell
has been counted paragraph by paragraph, and it is about .4%, which is less
than 1%.
Marman's research has shown that in Paul's time as well as earlier throughout
history, reworking some principles or words from other works was accepted
practice, especially in religious texts --- until a change in the early 80s.
Paul Twitchell died in 1971. For more details about the change in attitudes and
practice and laws, refer to Doug Marman's Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
http://members.aol.com/LKPublictn/DialogIntro.htm

(JOE) wrote:
>Watch this everyone.
> >

Question Jan:
Was Paul Twitchell a plagiarist? Yes or no?

JAN replies:

Paul doesn't live in present time, he didn't write his books in present time.
In 1971 and before, especially in the 1950s when he wrote several of his books,
journalistic standards were different. Check Dialogue in the Age of Criticism,
I think it's Chapter Six, to understand the standards of journalism of the day.

....so my answer is....no.

<smile>

Not a lot has changed, really. Except that things are now more "little known"
than when marman met lane online at a.r.e. in 1996 ongoing ...

[Henosis Sage]

RE: DM

"[...] Running across words from Paul's writings in other books surprised me at
first, but I now find it an enjoyable discovery. [... .]"
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

One of my more favourite DM quotes:

SHARON:
> I forget in which book Twitch says something to Reb like slow
> down so he could get the words written down right. And isn't it "Dialogues
> With the Master" that has the picture of Twitch actually sitting there
> taking dictation?

DM: Dialogues With The Master is not the same as The Far Country. In Dialogues,
Paul is actually recording, from what I can see, his inner experiences with
his Master. He is trying to translate the inner teachings he is getting into
written words. That's what he seems to mean by dictation. I've not heard of
any plagiarism put into Rebazar's mouth in that book. Have you?

Comments:
So what DM is saying here is that in the book DWTM:
"Paul is actually recording" and "That's what he seems to mean by dictation"
and that "I've not heard of any plagiarism put into Rebazar's mouth in [DWTM]"

DM should go have a look at this document and educate himself about 'the facts': Dialogues-with-the-Master-Plagiarism-by-Paul-Twitchell
or check out the many examples of plagiarism posted to a.r.e. Some are listed below.

Sharon:
> His intro says Reb went through a complete series of dialogues with him.
> Isn't it odd - he couldn't remember these dialogues, and had to look at
> previously published books to find the right words?

DM:
That complete series of dialogues was what Paul "recorded" in his book
Dialogues With The Master.

FROM:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPaE5PZzliZ1dVOWM/view?usp=sharing

---------------



PS some of MARMAN's self-delusions (inaccuracies) about TFC & DWTM books .....

DM re:
".... in the Introduction Paul talks about only how he has tried to capture the
message"

The TFC Introduction actually says:
"He (RT) went through a complete series of dialogues
with me, about the whole works of ECKANKAR, the
ancient science of Soul Travel. He also included in
these discourses the planes beyond the physical senses."

and
"This manuscript (via RSSBs doctrine in PotM especially)
gives the ways of reaching God, the various planes and what
are on them, the philosophy and doctrine of ECKANKAR."

DM is suggesting PT is referring to the DWTM 'dialogues' but
the problem there is that it is as heavily plagiarised as TFC was.

Whereas DM still believes DWTM really is a "record" of RT
communicating and dictating important things about Eckankar
to Paul, and wasn't plagiarised from already published books
like all the others.

But yes, PT does say:
".... an inspired person for the relationship between the ECK chela and the MAHANTA,
and the theme of God-Realization is developed, too."

PT then concludes, 'with authority':

".... he will come to know that ECK is the highest of all paths to
God. That there is no other way to gain spiritual enlightenment."

............. all while copying verbatim ~90% of the information from other books
like the Path of the Masters by Johnson and The Master Key System by Haanel?

[Etznab]

I think it not easy to tell what Doug believes today. His writings are not sure proof of what he himself actually believes. Doug may not want to go against the grain of perceived official Eckankar dogma. Not too far, at least. Not if he wants to carry the torch of Eckankar leader, or ride for the Eckankar brand.

However, I could argue no Eckankar member (including Doug) need necessarily fear the actual truth no matter how much it cuts against the grain of orthodox official dogma. IMHO, Truth should be the orthodox official dogma and truth is what the courts care about, not unfounded and / or incredible imaginations with fictions / deceptions that don't add up to reality.

I think there is a reason Church and State are separated in United States. Not only to give freedom for Religions, but also to protect the individual citizen against groups of religious "fanatics" and "zealots".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealots_%28Judea%29

David Lane didn't fear certain truths that he uncovered and Ford Johnson went and expanded on many things by providing accompanying documents for proof and verity. It didn't really matter in the end all the detraction and spins both here and other groups and various books, because the truth prevails in the end and this is what I realized many years ago. I knew it was only a matter of time before the plagiarism topics (and all their ramifications), etc., started to get a lot more attention; and thus it would be necessary to be well-read about the topics and necessary to isolate truth from fiction. Iow, these topics would come to the surface and be talked about more than ever before.

I think there are huge repercussions for religion in general when the creation of "Eckankar" dogma and beliefs are thoroughly explored and compared against the actual truth. I think one of the questions that come up is "What is being done to assure that it doesn't happen again?" Or to ensure that nobody tries to impersonate a spiritual being, or master using plagiarized words and text amounting to far more than a few sentences.

[Henosis Sage]

-----------------

RE: "I think it not easy to tell what Doug believes today."

I Totally Agree.

[Etznab]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 10:03:45 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> so, absolutely nothing new being said here lol, y'all keep carrying that torch for your plagiarism thing, i mean despite the fact that the man responsible has left this earth, as has his successor, so, who really cares? No one is as uncomfortable as you folks seem to like to believe they are, this taken from people who are completely NEW to Eckankar, or its writings, you can call that propaganda if you wish, but it isn't, and the proofs are quite abundant, try looking...whatever gets y'all through the night as it were LOL...

Torch carried by Marman.

[Kinpa]

[Kinpa]

Will I be graced by your swearing and name-calling now? Is that the best you are able to come up with? Seriously? That is a thing a person does when they had run out of steam, as you claimed before that I had done, but we both know that was never true!

[Etznab]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 10:03:45 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

People care because it is enjoyable to find and discuss the appropriations.

"Running across words from Paul's writings in other books surprised me at first, but I now find it an enjoyable discovery." - D.M.

Etznab also finds it enjoyable and to share these gifts with his friends J.R., Kinpa and the 1400, etc.

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 17 October 2015 10:30:28 UTC+11, Etznab wrote:

> People care because it is enjoyable to find and discuss the appropriations.
>
> "Running across words from Paul's writings in other books surprised me at first, but I now find it an enjoyable discovery." - D.M.
>
> Etznab also finds it enjoyable and to share these gifts with his friends J.R., Kinpa and the 1400, etc.

On Reason and Passion
Kahlil Gibran

Your soul is oftentimes a battlefield, upon which your reason and your judgment wage war against your passion and your appetite.
Would that I could be the peacemaker in your soul, that I might turn the discord and the rivalry of your elements into oneness and melody.
But how shall I, unless you yourselves be also the peacemakers, nay, the lovers of all your elements?


Your reason and your passion are the rudder and the sails of your seafaring soul. If either your sails or your rudder be broken, you can but toss and drift, or else be held at a standstill in mid-seas.
For reason, ruling alone, is a force confining; and passion, unattended, is a flame that burns to its own destruction.
Therefore let your soul exalt your reason to the height of passion, that it may sing;
And let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes.


I would have you consider your judgment and your appetite even as you would two loved guests in your house.
Surely you would not honour one guest above the other; for he who is more mindful of one loses the love and the faith of both.


Among the hills, when you sit in the cool shade of the white poplars, sharing the peace and serenity of distant fields and meadows -- then let your heart say in silence, "God rests in reason."
And when the storm comes, and the mighty wind shakes the forest, and thunder and lightning proclaim the majesty of the sky -- then let your heart say in awe, "God moves in passion."
And since you are a breath in God's sphere, and a leaf in God's forest, you too should rest in reason and move in passion.

[Etznab]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 5:07:09 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:

"Many things were made to look as if having come from Rebazar Tarzs and other of the Eck Masters. Even from Lords and beings on other planes of existence. And yet, now it is enjoyable and fun to discover real sources for Paul's writings. ... ."

"Running across words from Paul's writings in other books surprised me at first, but I now find it an enjoyable discovery." - D.M.

Etznab also finds it enjoyable and to share these gifts with his friends J.R., Kinpa and the 1400, etc. (And with Rob.)

Obviously not enjoyable to all. Not enjoyable to J.R.. Not enjoyable to Kinpa. Not enjoyable to Rob. All have chosen to apologize, minimize and replace the words of others in a futile attempt to detract away from, or censure the truth. This much can be clearly confirmed via a.r.e. archives.

It might not matter to everybody in Eckankar, or even to Harold, but it does matter nonetheless ... and faking the sources for Eckankar writings is not the enjoyable experience that so many have come to love. Exposing the sources is much more enjoyable!!! Even in spite of vile attacks from religious fanatics, fundamentalists, extremists and terrorists; because the mean and disrespectful actions will only lead to a quicker downfall for all who engage in such worn out propaganda practices feeding pseudo history and religion.

[Henosis Sage]

==================

Being confronted with TRUTH is rarely an enjoyable experience for the deluded nor especially for the LIAR.

[Kinpa]

On Monday, November 9, 2015 at 6:07:36 PM UTC, Etznab wrote:
> On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 5:07:09 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> > "And, as I mentioned before, Harold also spoke with me about his discoveries with Paul's early life while he was uncovering them, and the many books Paul had used as sources for his own writing. Harold also shared the difficulties that arose between himself and Darwin during those times."
> >
> > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Twelve.htm
> >
> > "For the reader who is interested in looking at how wide-ranging Paul's use of other materials really is, outside of the Radha Soami references that David has offered, here are a few of the books I have run across that turned out to be more than just a little bit familiar sounding:
> >
> > "In The Way of the White Clouds, by Lama Govinda, a book about Tibetan Buddhist teachers, you will find the exact description Paul used when approaching Lai Tsi's cave in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. In Walter Russell's book, The Secret of Light, you can hear the words of Brahm speaking to you, just like the words Brahm spoke in The Tiger's Fang. Read Darkness and the Deep, by Vardis Fisher, and you will see the origin of creation as Paul wrote about it in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. A book by Edouard Schure, called The Great Initiates contains some of the same sweeping historical overview as The Spiritual Notebook. Manly Palmer Hall's Karma and Reincarnation covers the whole subject of nidanas that you will find in The ECK Vidya. Besides these, there are a few pages in The Varieties of Religious Experience, by William James, some sections from Ouspensky's The Fourth Way and In Search of the Miraculous, passages from Neville Goddard's The Power of Awareness and Awakened Imagination, and even The Bible has been a source for Paul. Lai Tsi's contemplation seed in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad looks very similar to one of the Psalms."
> >
> > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm
> >
> > "[...] Running across words from Paul's writings in other books surprised me at first, but I now find it an enjoyable discovery. [... .]"
> >
> > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm
> >
> > This is so enjoyable that even others are adding to the growing list!
> >
> > Doug does not necessarily mention the sources discovered by Harold. But that he later mentioned the name Darwin, and "difficulties that arose", is something interesting to me.
> >
> > ***
> >
> > Many things were made to look as if having come from Rebazar Tarzs and other of the Eck Masters. Even from Lords and beings on other planes of existence. And yet, now it is enjoyable and fun to discover real sources for Paul's writings. Even if the sources were not real living "Eckankar" masters, but passages from books written by OTHER real live living people!
> >
> > How similar are books with inanimate masters speaking as if animate? Compared with inanimate puppets moved by animate puppeteers?
>
>
> "Many things were made to look as if having come from Rebazar Tarzs and other of the Eck Masters. Even from Lords and beings on other planes of existence. And yet, now it is enjoyable and fun to discover real sources for Paul's writings. ... ."
>
> "Running across words from Paul's writings in other books surprised me at first, but I now find it an enjoyable discovery." - D.M.
>
> Etznab also finds it enjoyable and to share these gifts with his friends J.R., Kinpa and the 1400, etc. (And with Rob.)
>
> Obviously not enjoyable to all. Not enjoyable to J.R.. Not enjoyable to Kinpa. Not enjoyable to Rob. All have chosen to apologize, minimize and replace the words of others in a futile attempt to detract away from, or censure the truth. This much can be clearly confirmed via a.r.e. archives.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You assume much....you ought to stop doing that, especially if you intend to remain stuck in the past by reviewing things said years ago...not making yourself look terribly bright that way. By the way it is now well over 1500 and heading towards 1600....get the facts true and accurate, otherwise this is simply yet another of the great many double standards that you love to use but are never willing to abide by yourself.....




~~

> It might not matter to everybody in Eckankar, or even to Harold, but it does matter nonetheless ... and faking the sources for Eckankar writings is not the enjoyable experience that so many have come to love. Exposing the sources is much more enjoyable!!! Even in spite of vile attacks from religious fanatics, fundamentalists, extremists and terrorists; because the mean and disrespectful actions will only lead to a quicker downfall for all who engage in such worn out propaganda practices feeding pseudo history and religion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It doesn't matter as much as you assume it does....you are, of course, welcomed to have your own opinion, regardless of how fictional it might be. Speaking about religious fanatics can only count if you are willing to include yourself among those....no one cares about the plagiarism, deal with that reality. Those books are no longer sold by the Org. and the members know all about it. No religion on the face of the planet has ever been any different, each one borrowing precepts from previous religions, and plagiarizing or even stealing other stories that predate the religion in question. It is a very common trait. What of it?

You yourself are trapped by your own propaganda, as well as your mistaken opinion that plagiarism proves anything other than simple plagiarism. It simply does not. You choose to make the assumption that it proves your conclusions, and that is what it actually is...good luck with it partner...

[Etznab]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 6:43:21 PM UTC-5, Henosis Sage wrote:

Doug writes: "I've not heard of any plagiarism put into Rebazar's mouth in that book. Have you?"

IMO (and I think according to others too) this is a BIG PART of the problem.

For someone like Doug Marman, who was close to Harold and saw manuscripts from the "Paul Twitchell library" - and before that, tapes from the Darwin Gross era (one audiotape with Paul Twitchell impersonating the voice of Rebazar Tarzs) - it is a blight on the credibility of researchers and those who write books with the title "The Whole Truth", IMHO.

Also was a BIG PROBLEM in the early days of a.r.e. with so many people giving Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp and Eckankar the benefit of the doubt with regard to percentage of plagiarism, of borrowing and redactions, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redaction

In other words, if it couldn't be proven by evidence then the apologists were loath to accept it. And critics faced insult after insult (including personal attacks and publishing of personal information online) even if they were correct with the facts they were stating. (Maybe they just weren't riding for the "Eckankar brand", or towing the "party line" as most of them had renounced their Eckankar memberships. Some which amounted to decades and included leadership positions only available to clergy and quit the organization.)

Doug didn't know of plagiarism in Dialogues With The Master? Doug didn't know Sudar Singh was (according to Paul Twitchell) a married man and had a son that went to Oxford? During all of the dialogues here at a.r.e. and people making claims about plagiarism amounting to 1 and 2 percent only (Doug Marman saying something about not three consecutive words in a row)

"I can't see a string of identical words any longer than 3 words long."

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/%22obviously$20common$20twists$20of$20words%22/alt.religion.eckankar/6Q447ti-UJg/99gyjJFv1vMJ

(Look at some of the responses to what Doug wrote then. Including the post by Tom Leafeater on 7/2/03)

... IMHO this is all a BIG PART of the problem.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/%22three$20words$20in$20a$20row%22|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/SQxr8279FuE/Y7OcMDtuUz0J

[Etznab]

Quoting ...

"Second, Doug admits that it is clear Twitchell "rewrote" Johnson's material, and asserts that Twitchell followed the order of Johnson's work. This is an
interesting admission from a person who has already admitted that Twitchell
plagiarized. So what is Doug's point? It isn't that Twitchell never
plagiarized, for he has already conceded that fact. So it is yet again the
constant attempt to minimize Twitchell's misdeeds. And the need to minimize
reveals Doug's discomfort, to put it mildly, with Twitchell's behavior. Now,
rather than defend Twitchell's behavior, he has resorted to minimizing it. This
implies strongly that Doug finds the behavior indefensible to at least some
degree. If plagiarism is fine and dandy, then why minimize it? Why not boast
about the plagiarism?"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/%22obviously$20common$20twists$20of$20words%22/alt.religion.eckankar/6Q447ti-UJg/99gyjJFv1vMJ

[Etznab]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 6:43:21 PM UTC-5, Henosis Sage wrote:

[...] DM: Dialogues With The Master is not the same as The Far Country. In Dialogues, Paul is actually recording, from what I can see, his inner experiences with his Master. He is trying to translate the inner teachings he is getting into written words. That's what he seems to mean by dictation. I've not heard of any plagiarism put into Rebazar's mouth in that book. Have you? [... .]

People have written a lot of critical things about Doug Marman, and I can partly understand why, but IMO Doug has done something more than any other Eckist I know. Doug (IMHO), like it or not, has shared more about the actual truth concerning plagiarisms and name replacements than has Gail, Patti, or Harold!

This is not to say that I saw Doug steadfastly taking one side in the matter and standing on the side of truth at all times. No. Rather I saw Doug trying to play both sides and having acted like a "middle man".

What was that about trying to "fill the void"?

"As for Eckankar not addressing these issues and not coming out with more real facts to help clarify the picture - well, that's of course exactly why I published my book, to help fill that void."

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.religion.eckankar/RE5XRpHP0Wg/WZg23y3oCfIJ

"More real facts to help clarify the picture" sounds good to me, but again, I didn't see Doug standing on the side of "more real facts" at all times. IMHO his book was a counterpoint to David Lane's research, findings and facts and was Doug's own "SPIN" in the form of what he asked people to see as "POETRY"!

Yea, I think Doug was caught in the middle between presenting the unbridled truth, on the one side, and "riding for the Eck brand", on the other side. It is this position that the most devoted followers of religion seem to take, IMO. A position that leans on the side of popular dogma and saving the popular forms of dogma imbibed by thousands as the meat and bones of their respective faiths.

What would devotees be if they cast man-made elements of organized religion to the side? in order to more firmly stand on the side of truth alone? Would they still be following the truth of their religion? Perhaps they would be following the truth of their religion.

How about this question then. Where does it say that religious persons need to subordinate themselves to fabricated fictions and lies in order to be real good spiritual persons? At least, is anything like this spelled out for people who choose to become members of Eckankar? And after having become members, is there any official document or requirement telling them to subordinate themselves to lies?

I am not under the impression there is such a document, or requirement. Maybe there be some "unspoken truths" that not everybody like to talk about, but so many truths are increasingly spoken about none the less. Besides, I don't think a religion wculd qualify for tax exempt status if it knowing broke the laws of the state(s) in which it resides. Therefore, in conclusion, Harold Klemp, Doug Marman and others have been able to share certain things about Paul Twitchell and his writings. I think they have (understandably) tried to compensate both sides to some extent; the side of truth and the side of organized church dogma.

Next we have members of Eckankar who come to openly dialogue on this modern contraption called the Internet; something not so active when Paul Twitchell was forming Eckankar, and something that Harold Klemp, the current leader of Eckankar, allegedly doesn't like to frequent very often on account of the EMF radiation. We have people holding open discussions, asking questions, quoting Eckankar books (including words reportedly come Eckankar masters) alongside of text from books in Paul Twitchell's library, books that he had checked out of the library, or books and writings he had read about at one time. People on this newsgroup have presented forms of writings having changed over time. The ones that existed before and after Eckankar became an official religion, or became even a company by that name. We, myself and others, saw years ago how Paul Twitchell submitted articles for Orion Magazine and the owners discovered plagiarism and refused to accept more of his articles. (Some of those articles were later edited for Eckankar books.) We, myself and others, read about this "growing list" and hints about what Harold Klemp and Doug Marman had found. The times have changed because now the Internet has captured and recorded copies of letters and "formal complaints" to Eckankar headquarters about controversial and contradictory information written into Eckankar dogma. Copies of documents and depositions have been submitted and all of them were once available and in the public domain.

In spite of all what has come so far, there have been the online "discussions" and the online personal attacks. In the middle of this has been a "double-edged sword of truth". The idea gets illustrated in many different ways. Here is one from a long list of examples.

https://thirdeyeindigo.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/the-double-edged-sword-of-truth/

So it was about ten years ago I saw what was coming. I had the sense to know what had not yet happened, but that would happen eventually. This news group has proven my suspicions correct and recorded some "echoes" from other places about what has now become more popular and public.

The author of "The Whole Truth", Doug Marman, shared with us so many years ago already:

"Harold told me that one day the files would be made open to researchers who wanted to go in and study them."

Doug also shared: "... Corporations and organizations rarely were open in the past. It was considered a risk to share information unless is was necessary. But the Internet has changed the world, and more openness is now the much wiser course. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mblcCo6jAuU/uVC0UQk8BgAJ

Something about the word refrain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrain
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=refrain

Now see if you can hear the refrain in each of these examples :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC5iXPAXXKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVW9sOsXAjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DUqplxIcNk

[Henosis Sage]

---

good article ref. especially appreciated this part:

"Individually, truth is important because it directly translates into the quality and meaningfulness of our lives. It directly impacts our happiness. It directly impacts personal reputation. It directly impacts trustworthiness. It directly impacts our success. Most importantly, it directly impacts our spiritual integrity. It impacts so many aspects that if most people really understood just how important it was, they too would be "truth seekers." Truth cuts to the chase. It makes things easier, harmonious, joyful, balanced and healthier. Living the lie has a high cost - lack of flow, personal stagnation, problems with others, lack of healing, etc."

Nice CSN too!