How did it happen?

[Etznab]

How did it happen that much of what seemed to come from Eck Masters and included in Eckankar books (most especially from Rebazar Tarzs) also turned out to resemble sections of other non-Eckankar books, written by non-Eckankar authors?

It's a question. People are free to read into it what they want. Free to project their own personal phobias and fears, etc. onto what I asked ... but it's really a simple question that - no matter how I word it - can tend to appear negative and like a criticism.

Why appear to be a negative criticism? Because it appears to question the vital truths about so many Eck Masters? And the vital truth about Eckankar dogma itself?

Plagiarism (today) looks more like a proven fact than an allegation; so far as Eckankar books and foundational writings are concerned, IMO. (Again, this sentence can appear negative and critical, but there are not many other ways to state it; I think it was stated quite fairly.)

So I thought of this question: "How did it happen?" It was a sincere question and is now a topic for discussion.

It seems the effects are quite evident, but not the causes. For all I know someone advised Paul Twitchell to veil the plagiarisms behind pseudonyms and literary devices; but even that does not appear accurate. The names of Eck Masters were not described as pseudonyms and / or literary devises. The names were described as belonging to once living, or now living real people!

The scheme about real living masters was also a part of the Sant Mat teachings and spinoff paths. Paul Twitchell, someone, evidently used the same language found in The Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson, when illustrating certain characteristics of an authentic master. And the lineage scheme of real living masters requires just that. Real living people!

I just wonder why Paul Twitchell had to plagiarize and paraphrase and borrow so many writings from elsewhere and then tack on the name of an Eck Master without citing the name of the book, or the book's author.

I think it could really become an educational moment to learn exactly how did this kind of thing happen and who was involved? if anybody, besides Paul Twitchell?

I'm just trying to imagine what Paul was thinking and what other people (who did similar things) in the 1960s were thinking. Did it not matter if the literary characters (Example: Eck Masters) were real? Or, was there a time in Paul's notes and writings when citations were included (and later changed)? It seems that there were times when people's names were cited. People like Swami Premananda, Sawan & Kirpal Singh, and L.Ron Hubbard, etc. And I remember being told about the various stereotypes attached to other paths and teachings. About why Eckankar had to (so to speak) define things in its own way as if to "stand on its own feet", what have you. At the same time though, What gives Eckankar (or any other religion) liberty to sacrifice, or even cover-up and occlude the accurate historical truth, that it's own corporate self can survive? It seems like an exchange of one thing for another. A replacing of history with pseudo-history; whereas ancient masters are concerned. (I kinda doubt that money is not involved.)

It just seems (to me) essential, necessary ... and the kind and loving thing to do - when taking into account consideration for future generations - to record the actual source of certain wordings used to document, chronicle, and record a legacy for something like spiritual teachings claimed to be ancient and having come from masters connected and belonging to the "same" path. Because, How to determine and authenticate actual historical truths from personal (but off the mark) imaginings by people wanting to "fill in the blanks" (and appear in the know) of historical truths? Many times, IMHO, people's imaginings are outright wrong and undeserving to stand on par with real happenings. To the contrary, off-the-mark personal imaginings can be dangerous and not always benign. Such things can develop and lead to wars and all the consequences of wars. I think this is beyond tragic, but instead is something as hideous as (and deserving to stand on par with) descriptions of a living Hell. Where creations of pseudo-history and religion are evident, and / or suspect I believe investigation and clarification is the loving thing to do. And something to reinvigorate religion with new and younger people instead of the reverse; the reverse where majority opinion abhors anything to do with religion; or masters and leaders who claim to know the truth about it, but are revealed to be outright liars.

How did it happen? Would anybody like to suggest a sincere (not playing for kudos, or wanting to act like a circus clown) explanation based on provable facts and supporting evidence? Would anybody on the inside of Eckankar during the formative years (when it did happen) like to come forward and put the record straight (don't forget to supplement with verifiable facts and empirical evidence).

[Henosis Sage]

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ETZNAB said:

"Many times, IMHO, people's imaginings are outright wrong and undeserving to
stand on par with real happenings. To the contrary, off-the-mark personal
imaginings can be dangerous and not always benign. Such things can develop and
lead to wars and all the consequences of wars. I think this is beyond tragic,
but instead is something as hideous as (and deserving to stand on par with)
descriptions of a living Hell. Where creations of pseudo-history and religion
are evident, and / or suspect I believe investigation and clarification is the
loving thing to do. And something to reinvigorate religion with new and
younger people instead of the reverse; the reverse where majority opinion
abhors anything to do with religion; or masters and leaders who claim to know
the truth about it, but are revealed to be outright liars.
How did it happen?"

Great question Etznab, excellent question, a poignant question for ECKANKAR in
2015. 50 years on from Gail and Paul Twitchell's thought bubbles.

I for one am waiting patient for the answers to this question that are true,
accurate, real, and verifiable because they are based on GENUINE FACTUAL EVIDENCE and not beliefs or fantasies or personal psychotic styled delusions
of the Mind.

Could be asking too much here. Will wait and see what gets tossed up.
Without expectation. 8^)

[Kinpa]

Let's start with YOU! Have you ANY factual evidence OTHER THAN plagiarisms? If not, then kindly go into the corner and shut it! You have nothing of value or sense to add!

[Kinpa]

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 10:55:48 PM UTC-5, Henosis Sage wrote:

>----------------------------------------------------------------
The ASSUMPTION, that the Masters are fictional, has absolutely NO evidence to support it, furthermore, plagiarisms do NOT prove that, that is a fine example of a person making a mental assumption, and then going quite overboard with it, being that there is NO factual evidence to support it, end of story! When you find Paul Twitchell stating clearly and specifically that he created these Masters out of nothing more than his imagination, THAT is when i will consider the idea...until you provide that evidence, you have nothing more than a suspicion, which is utterly meaningless and without worth! SHOW YOUR EVIDENCE, but do NOT let it be PLAGIARISM, which happens to not even remotely address the subject at hand! Assumption is worthless, and you can insist it is not, but by doing so sean, you prove that YOUR are delusional (as if is wasn't already completely obvious!) You simply have NO proof, so, until you find some, keep your opinions of me to yourself, and don't speculate on anyone's karma, worry only about your own! ;D if you cannot handle being disagreed with because you have NO proof, TOUGH LUCK! Deal with it!-----How did it happen that PT plagiarized and claimed all of those words to have come from ECK Masters? a great question, however, UNTIL YOU HAVE SPECIFIC AND DEFINITIVE PROOF, you have NOTHING to support that claim, and it will remain nothing more than a claim, a suspicion that cannot be proven! THAT is REALITY! You don't get to have a choice in it, go find the evidence to support your claims, and stop acting like a grade school child calling names because everyone doesn't agree with you! You're starting to sound like quite the crybaby down under, and it's OLD! If THAT is the best you have, then you had better go crawl back under your rock sean! Let me know when you find actual evidence...

[Henosis Sage]

Matthew "the Deluded Fool" Sharpe enquired:

"Have you ANY factual evidence OTHER THAN plagiarisms?"

That's an interesting question. Why are you asking me?

Why are you so DELUDED and STUPID that you'd would BELIEVE
for one moment I would tell you (or a.r.e.) what that was?

Are you really that insane or only an IDIOT who is having a nervous breakdown Matthew?

[Henosis Sage]

--


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KINPA -- I'm going to ignore now - buh-bye!

WHEN???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Can't the Mahanta, or Peddar Zaske, or Rebazar tarzs, or Fubbi Quantz, or Gobal Das, or Kata Daki, or Rumi, or Shams Tabriz, or Socrates, or pythagorus, help you with that Matthew Sharpe?

Are you doing your spiritual exercises Matthew, and are not these great VAIRAGI
(ie Detachment) ECK masters guiding and helping you deal with this terrible
psychic attack by the evil Kal Power and showing to how to be DETACHED and LET IT GO ?

Where are they Matthew? Where is Shin Shoo? Where is Wah Zzzzzzzzzzz?

Where is Doug Marman's new MAHANTA who he says replaced Harold Klemp YEARS AGO now?

Where is your support from Sat Nam Matthew you DISGUSTING LYING FRAUD?

[Kinpa]

So, in other words, you have NOTHING?? just like to pretend legal action you have threatened about all day? No law-enforcement agency has called me yet regarding your CLAIM! As i said, i will be sure to let you know when that happens, and until then, its ALL talk. I haven't broken a law, therefore NO law-enforcement agency can be bothered to waste time on your complaints, that is how things work in the justice systems in the REAL world, although i DO understand that you are in "Drunken Seanworld" and in that realm reality doesn't necessarily apply....

[Kinpa]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:20:08 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> Prove what you say! ;) prove that no such entities exist....while you're at it, prove that there are no lords of karma...what evidence have you? oh, that's right, as [per usual, you have NOTHING! Hilarious...

Sean always does this when he has been drinking...it's sort of funny that he can't handle his drink, and allows it to drive him all over! You might consider drying out, for your own health, seriously!

[Henosis Sage]

On Wednesday, 25 February 2015 12:20:08 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:

> Prove what you say! ;) prove that no such entities exist....while you're at it, prove that there are no lords of karma...what evidence have you? oh, that's right, as [per usual, you have NOTHING! Hilarious...

Prove what YOU say to those you seek to CONVERT to ECKANKAR! ;)

Prove that the Eckankar ECK masters exist.... as described by Paul Twitchell.

Prove that Twitchell's claims about his life and meeting these ECK masters and
his "teaching" is true.

Prove that the hundreds of thousands who left all left because they were failures, and NOT in fact Twitchell and Gross and Klemp.

If one believes what Twitchell said in 1970/71 there was over a MILLION ECKists then.

Where did they all go Matthew "the liar" Sharpe; why did they leave and keep
leaving now?

Eckankar the stock market investors of spirituality. They only count the "winners" and Eckankar only ever QUOTE the SUCKERS and not those who leave.

Ha! Like let's pretend that nobody knows this??? But then there is always the DEAD Quoc isn't there ...

Rationalizing Apologist Naive Gullible Faithful Loyal Dedicated 4th Initiate Quoc in 1997 SYDNEY Australia
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/T0H6wADp-Ww/HEzk2LVsq8gJ

Protection Failure from the MAHANTA in ECKANKAR (by Quoc Quy Hoang on 3/1/2005, Internet Search Code: QQH891955-1) 6th Initiate SYDNEY Australia
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/CRCwR2NcAyA/Jql7z2tiVwIJ

Quoc Quy Hoang by Easter 2005 - OSTRACIZED ABANDONED Sydney Australia

Dead Quoc ................... Please don't end up like Quoc
ECKANKAR is not worth it.

--- ---

Go on, PROVE it Matthew "30 year ECK expert" Sharpe .. should be as easy as a
baby playing in it's own soiled nappy.

That's Sharpe by name, not sharp by nature!

[Kinpa]

[Henosis Sage]

Added to the list ... seriously!

[Kinpa]

Pay attention to what you said here seanie! When you pass I will bring your obit here and speak about you also, since you created that, it IS your karma to have it happen! I look forward to it!

[Henosis Sage]

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WOW totally loopy today .. he's morphed into the Lords of Karma.

Far out .. what a nutcase.

Do you think he will ever prove to anyone that I bought another's "obit" here?

And even if I did, then so f****** what?

Jot Niranjan inside Kinpoop's head has told him it's a major issue requiring
severe punishment AFTER I am dead?

Gosh, I am shaking in my bones ..... NOT!

Big call to even "think" you will out live me, but whatever, your caravan
of karams are like that.

Like WTF is wrong in this picture being played out live on a.r.e.?

It's called "madness" and "possessed by evil spirits" in the bible by Jesus.

Is there a spiritual healer in the house to "cast out the demons" into the "swine"?

A catholic Priest with the authority to do Exorcisms maybe?

An FBI agent perhaps?

[Etznab]

"One of the questions that naturally arises is whether, or not, people have liberty to not only rewrite history, but to also deny how fictions were created in the process; as if to cover-up what was done."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1m66RUn1fgM/Dva8G-GCCAAJ