Asatru/Norse Paganism --------> messages on the Pagan Message Board

[Heimdall]

MOONPHAlZE wrote:

> To whom it may concern,
>
> I am contacting you for the reason that I am an AOL member and that I have
> read many message postings on the Pagan Message Board and that some of the
> folks not only have made claims that the Asatru/Norse Paganism was ancient but
> also that they have been publicly insulting the Wiccan religion which is a
> more modern form of witchcraft with various changes and also that Wicca is a
> feminine religion. Some of us choose the Wiccan path and that when I read
> message postings that tear down the Wiccan religion, I feel that they are not
> whole with themselves. Nobody is posting insulting messages about their path
> in any of the folders on the Pagan Message Board what-so-ever and yet that is
> what they are doing to those who seek out the Wiccan religion as their
> spiritual path. And then these same folks who are posting these messages about
> the Wiccans are whining about other folks not accepting them and their
> religion. I feel that there is alot of contradictory here and I would like to
> e mail you the various message postings that these people have posted as well
> if you may.
>
> Thank you very much
>
> MOONP...@aol.com

Frankly, it's rather poorly done to 'email' or post others messages from another
area without permission. It sounds like an invitation to trouble. We Asatruar
are pretty good at arguing with each other without getting a 'Wiccan' thing going.

Heimdall
AOR/AFA/Himinbjorg Kindred

[MOONPHAlZE]

[AsaBolverk]

Heimdall wrote: (concerning Moonphaize's posting)

>Frankly, it's rather poorly done to 'email' or post others messages from
>another
>area without permission. It sounds like an invitation to trouble. We
>Asatruar
>are pretty good at arguing with each other without getting a 'Wiccan' thing
>going.

Frankly my friend, you don't know the half of it, wait until she starts in
without the chance of her getting kicked off line like could happen in Aol.
She is not to be believed!

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Fear Not the Web of a Dead Spider!

Hail Odin!
Tony

[mek...@hotmail.com]

In article <199805070420...@ladder03.news.aol.com>#1/1,

moonp...@aol.com (MOONPHAlZE) wrote:
>
>
> To whom it may concern,
>
> I am contacting you for the reason that I am an AOL member and that I have
> read many message postings on the Pagan Message Board and that some of the
> folks not only have made claims that the Asatru/Norse Paganism was ancient
but
> also that they have been publicly insulting the Wiccan religion which is a
> more modern form of witchcraft with various changes and also that Wicca is a
> feminine religion.

With all due respect, I would like to make a few comments:

1. Those folk who may be posting things insulting to you are necessarily the
folk on this newsgroup. I understand you indignance, but if you have
something to tell them, tell them, not us. We are not responsible for, nor do
speak for eachother any more than one person is responsible for another even
if their religion is the same.

2. If you seek "backup" or vindication, you have come to the wrong place. I
don't know you, I don't know what was posted, and I can't speak for anyone
else but myself.

3. Their opinions are not mine, nor those of anyone else who does not say
so. If they want to say mean things, they're entitled to that. The
Constitution of the US and it Amendments ensure the right to free speech. You
can choose to listen to or to ignore them, your choice.

> I feel that there is alot of contradictory here and I would like to
> e mail you the various message postings that these people have posted as
well
> if you may.
>
> Thank you very much
>
> MOONP...@aol.com

Emailing or posting the e-mail or posts from any other forum other than the
forum of origination is extremely bad form. It's like talking to your
significant other on the phone, then regaling the contents of that
conversation with yout parents, all while discussing your sex life with them.
I advise against it. Not only are there copyright laws that may apply, but
also personal considerations for which you must account.

Furthermore, if you intent is to come to this group seeking support for your
cause, and this is your sole purpose for being, you may get the saem treatment
as a vacuum cleaner salesman showing up unannounced on a doorstep. I don't
think it's characteristic for Asatruar to hate Wiccans, so jumping to that
conclusion is probably a bad idea. If you think that person or persons are
wrong, correct them, not us.

Frith upon your house
Karl Donaldsson

==================================================================
mek...@hotmail.com | http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8798
------------------------------------------------------------------
Humanity i love you because | He who has imagination
when you're hard up you | without logic has wings,
pawn your intellignece to buy a drink | but no feet.
-- e. e. cummings -- | -- Heraclitus --
==================================================================
Copyright 1998 by Karl Donaldsson

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

[Vithar Herren]

MOONPHAlZE pipes in:

>
>
the
> folks not only have made claims that the Asatru/Norse Paganism was ancient but

WHAT!!?>??? Somebody said Asatru was ancient??? How dare they!!! I
mean, it CAN'T be older than 40,000 years or more recent than 3000 years
old so who gets off saying it's ancient??? ;-)

Moonphaize, why is it that you only stop by here to disparage people?

How come you never ask a question about Asatru, or post an informative
article about the religion, or even just say "hi".

Are you still attacking Alfather/Vidharr?

Do you have a job, or do you just sit around looking for ways to stir up
trouble? Can you make a living at that? Where can I join that
company!!? :-> hm.... well, how much $$ does that pay?

--
Vithar
http://www.flash.net/~vithar
Irmin's Way Asatru Kindred in Houston, TX

[hol...@hildisvin.pp.se]

Vithar Herren wrote:
>
>
> Moonphaize, why is it that you only stop by here to disparage people?
>
> How come you never ask a question about Asatru, or post an informative
> article about the religion, or even just say "hi".
>
> Are you still attacking Alfather/Vidharr?
>
> Do you have a job, or do you just sit around looking for ways to stir up
> trouble? Can you make a living at that? Where can I join that
> company!!? :-> hm.... well, how much $$ does that pay?
>
> --
> Vithar
> http://www.flash.net/~vithar
> Irmin's Way Asatru Kindred in Houston, TX

The Hildisvin answered:

Hmm..wait until there is more posts from Moonphaize...
Then we'll see... Perhaps there is more to the very word "trouble" than
meets the eye...

[Susan Granquist]

Heilsen,

Perhaps one of you would be good enough to forward to the appropriate
Message boards?

On Thu, 7 May 1998, MOONPHAlZE wrote:

> I am contacting you for the reason that I am an AOL member and that I
> have read many message postings on the Pagan Message Board and that some

> of the folks not only have made claims that the Asatru/Norse Paganism
> was ancient but also that they have been publicly insulting the Wiccan

> religion which is a more modern form of witchcraft with various changes

> and also that Wicca is a feminine religion. Some of us choose the Wiccan

> path and that when I read message postings that tear down the Wiccan
> religion, I feel that they are not whole with themselves. Nobody is

> posting insulting messages about their path in any of the folders on the

> Pagan Message Board what-so-ever and yet that is what they are doing to
> those who seek out the Wiccan religion as their spiritual path. And then
> these same folks who are posting these messages about the Wiccans are

> whining about other folks not accepting them and their religion. I feel

> that there is alot of contradictory here and I would like to e mail you
> the various message postings that these people have posted as well if
> you may.

I would have to agree that if one wishes respect for their own religion,
regardless of what it is, they should expect to have to extend that same
respect to others. It is not unreasonable to compare practices and
concepts but one would hope that that could be done with civility, if not
courtesy.

The intolerance exists on both sides. There are those who have recently
been asserting that Asatru is a Wiccan sect. It is not unusual for
someone who is Asatru to be told that their gods are the same as whatever
deity it is that the Wiccan worships as "All gods are one god." Asatru is
a modern term, one coined in the 1800s by Danish and Icelandic scholars to
refer to the beliefs of the Germanic and Norse people in Pre-Christian
times. The advent of Wicca as a religion is also documented. There are
distinct differences in cosmology and theology (the rites, view of the
cosmos and deity, congregation organization) although there are overlaps
in some rituals, perceptions of magic and so on depending on individuals
and groups. Neither group can make any claim as to being more "ancient"
then the other as they did not exist in "name" prior to the 1800s.

Asatru is based on the folkways, the cultural values and the societal
expressions become the basis for understanding and preserving the ways of
worship and the ethical and philosophical world view that the religious
beliefs and as such relinking to the past becomes much more important to
Asatruar than it does for many who follow Wicca. Asatru is not a magical
tradition, as in the past the majority of people do not practice magic,
they simply accept the interaction of the deities and spirits as part of
every day life. Asatru has those who follow magical traditions and
practice, but they are, like the shaman, "technicians of the sacred" and
do not define the community even though a necessary and respected part of
it. It seeks to continue these expressions of the past as living
traditions and as a whole we are determined not to simply "make things up"
but to seek out not only the rituals, but the reasons behind them and how
they served the needs of the gods and people rather than viewing them as a
as magical.

Asatru is no more or less "feminine" or "masculine" than Wicca. Wicca
itself can not be defined in those terms as there are those who follow
that religion and who believe in The Goddess, others who believe in a God
and Goddess. Those of us in Asatru believe in "the gods" as a
multiplicity, and that there are other gods besides our own, but we follow
those identified in the literature and folkways collectively as "the
aesir" or even "tivar." We also recognize that not everyone who worships
the gods of the Norse/Germanic people are Asatru. The term defines a
religious community, and one that one needs to make a decision to join.

As to the judgement of being whole with themselves it would seem to me
that you've stepped back into what you are condemning the others for in
speculating on motivations and values. I would likewise question the
wisdom and the motivations behind bringing this complaint to a newsgroup
such as alt.religion.asatru instead of working it out where the arguments
began. It would seem as though you are looking for people to "correct"
their thinking and actions or perhaps to support you against them.

While I have not seen the posts on AOL from the reactions and comments
that appeared in response to your post (and the one I am replying to was
sent to me via the information address on the Irminsul Aettir Asatru
pages) it would seem that there are some significant personal problems and
conflicts. If people do not agree with you, they do not agree with you.
There is no way to force them and you lose respect by attempting to call
others into your argument or making it an even larger problem. I will not
make the mistake of assuming it is because you are Wiccan, as I know too
many Wiccans who it would never occur to as they are capable of fighting
their own fights and more appropriately addressing conflicts.

Regards,
Susan Granquist
http://irminsul.org

[Susan Granquist]

On Sun, 10 May 1998, MOONPHAlZE wrote:

> To whom it may concern,

Since this addressed to all that it may concerned, even though sent
directly to me at my private address I am going to answer it publically as
it would seem likely that it was intended to be a public response to my
own reply to an unsolicited message sent to me through the
in...@irminsul.org address on our web-pages. It was also posted to
alt.religion.asatru (but not for some reaons to alt.religion.wicca or
alt.religion.pagan). I likewise understand that this message was sent to
other Asatru individuals who have had no previous contact with you, and
who are not on AOL and were unaware of the entire situation.

> I have received your e mail in response to my original e mail to you. As
> for the Asatru/Norse Paganism religion, I have never compared the
> religion to any other religion and to be honest was not aware of the

It would seem that you have some rather more extensive involvement with
the Asatru community then you are admitting here. While you may not have
been comparing it to other religions, perhaps you could and would explain
the comparisons and charges of Nazism, the relevance of concentration
camps and the apparent persecution of anyone on AOL that disagreed with
you? Perhaps you can explain the reason that at least one person who is
about as far from being anti-Semtic as I can think of was TOS' after some
rather strange assertations on your part about past life experience
as a concentration camp victim as being a reason to lay blame at the feet
of the Asatru community for the Nazi atrocities?

Perhaps you should look to history. Asatru is a folk religion, not a
political movement, regardless of the fact that some extremists can not
separate the two and have taken a leaf out of the propogandist machinery
and mistaken the dross for the gold of the gods. That one modern,
ultra-nationalistic political movement exploited the names of the gods,
the folk beliefs of the people and the holy symbols does not give anyone a
mandate for persecution of members of a religion. The Nazi movement
included Christians, Pagans, Jews, agnostics and so on. That is a fact.
It was a horrendous thing and to avoid it happening again truth and
tolerance must prevail.

Fingers are often pointed at the Asatru community over the acts of the
madman and "fuherer" of that pseudo-religious political regime. In many
cases our fathers and grandfathers, even our grandmothers and mothers
fought in World War II. Where is the recognition for the Danes, the
Norwegians and Scandianvian countries where the heart of Asatru beat the
longest and strongest in pre-Christian days? Those who *fought* against
Hitler even though occupied, not just with underground resistance
movements but with peaceful and determined opposition. When it was
declared law that the Jews in Denmark and Norway put on an armband to
identify themselves to the Nazis the kings of those countries stepped
forward and put the same armbands on themselves..as did their people.
They kept the law and protected those who would have been persecuted
through wit and wisdom. That is the real heritage of Asatru from those
war torn and dark days.

> existence of this path until I had unpleasant communications with
> AIfatherII aka Vidhar unfortunately. In my opinion, I saw the negative
> side of him and that he created profiles that were offensive as I
> recall and made offensive statements

The Jewish religion itself has its extremists, who exploit the ways and
religion of their people, just as there are Muslims, Christians, Native
Americans...the list is unfortunately endless. To condemn a religion, to
persecute individuals based on prejudice, especially when the excuse is
presented that the actions of one person justify it is appalling. It is
the height of bigotry and prejudice.

> about Wicca, etc. In regard to this person, I was really not focusing on
> this person's religious beliefs per say but rather the nature of his
> message postings, profiles that he created and the fact that he harassed
> me in the Pagan Chat room. When I made the mistake of mass e mailing his
> profile to other people and warning them, one of the recipients posted a
> message saying that I knew nothing about Asatru and then I looked up an
> article about Asatru

You *mass mailed* his profile to others? It must have included Asatru
according to what you have stated here. You put out *warnings* about a
religion that you admit you knew NOTHING about??? And then offer that as
a justification?

> and Race and came up with an article that singled out my ethnic heritage
> in which I felt supported the most recent offensive profile that he
> created under the screen name: "AIfatherII". I also posted that article
> in the Asatru/Norse Paganism folder along with my comments. I will admit

You looked up "an article." Did you look at the rest of the sites and the
varied and diverse attitudes that are clearly a part of that religion? To
find that one you must have gone through various sites. Did you look at
the other articles, FAQs or seek out anyone recognized as an Asatru
authority in the community? No. I understand that in fact you complained
about one of our members whose statement on what Asatru is and which
*clearly* contradicts the views you are using to justify spamming and
harrassing those who profess Asatru, as having been "anti-Semetic."

You are perhaps unaware that there are those who share that Jewish ethnic
heritage who are Asatru? I have several in my own organization, and have
been cc:ing the publicity officer of the Irminsul Aettir with these
replies and the request to forward them to the appropriate boards and now
to the appropriate channels at AOL as your own words make it clear that
you have been "spamming" the newsgroups as well as individuals outside of
that original forum with vindictive and harrassing messages.

I think it would be well to point out that Krei Steinberg, who is our
Publicity Officer, and who you also seem to be having a problem with on
that same message board, *also* shares that ethnic background. Likewise
one of our members who is not Jewish, but who has a picture of herself on
the web wearing a Star of David which was given to her as a very special
gift was targeted for hate mail by some of those extremist elements for
wearing it. She still wears it...and I fully support her in doing so.

> that I was not too clear on what my objective was at the time and I was
> also under alot of stress which was not totally related to the
> unpleasant situation that I was having with this person. I was also in
> the process of having to relocate and look for another apartment at the
> time. As for AIfatherII aka Vidhar, he blocked me off from communicating

Perhaps it would be a good thing, considering the stress and all, to take
some time off?

> with directly if there were any arguments or other type of disputes and
> continued to antagonize me publicly on the Pagan Message Board as well
> as in the Pagan Chat room. I will also add that I have made attempts to
> deal directly with other people who post in the Asatru/Norse Paganism
> folder and they have also blocked my off and then posted some very
> offensive messages about me in the folder. I don't see them as being
> very mature either. I personally don't consider AIfatherII aka Vidhar to
> be a very mature person either and especially when he tells somebody to
> punt me and other people he doesn't get along with off line including IM
> bombs, etc. There is always two sides to this story.

How does this justify the original mass-mailings, and the subsequent
mass-mailings?

> Like I have said, I have read message postings on the Pagan Message
> Board and I don't know of anybody who has insulted the Asatru/Norse
> Paganism religion. There is nothing wrong in difference of opinion but
> when I did post that article "Asatru and Race," the people who posted in
> that folder literally held me up for ridicule which is not just merely
> disagreeing with what I had posted. Would you like for me to e mail you
> those message postings??????

Please feel free to forward any of those messages. However posting an
article about Asatru and Race (the only one I know of along those lines is
one by Gundarson which would hardly justify your continuing harrassment).
Mr. Gundarsson, myself and others have been ridiculed by the same person,
and we have not resorted to mass-mailings and accusations to all and
sundry. We simply address any issues he raises and let the fact that he
has to ridicule in order to express his views speak for itself.

Your last message laid the charge that people in Asatru were condeming
Wicca. This reply doesn't even address that issue, but instead goes into
a lot of excuses and justifications for condemning those who disagreed
with you. You have been instrumental in getting a number of people TOS'd
from that group. Yet you admit to having sent mass e-mailings over
discussions on the AOL board to people who have had nothing to do with it,
and based your harrassment on a few individuals statements of an entire
religion. Beyond spamming this comes very close to hate mail and if it
does not cease immediately, and AOL does not take some appropriate action
(and I leave that to them) I will have our lawyer address the problem
directly.

Regards,
Susan Granquist
Drottning, and Presiding Gydhia
Irminsul Aettir
http://irminsul.org

[S. M. Hewitt]

On Sun, 10 May 1998 08:32:54 -0700, Susan Granquist
<valk...@eskimo.com> wrote:

(edited)

>I would have to agree that if one wishes respect for their own religion,
>regardless of what it is, they should expect to have to extend that same
>respect to others. It is not unreasonable to compare practices and
>concepts but one would hope that that could be done with civility, if not
>courtesy.
>
>The intolerance exists on both sides.

(snip)

>Asatru is based on the folkways, the cultural values and the societal
>expressions become the basis for understanding and preserving the ways of
>worship and the ethical and philosophical world view that the religious
>beliefs and as such relinking to the past becomes much more important to
>Asatruar than it does for many who follow Wicca. Asatru is not a magical
>tradition, as in the past the majority of people do not practice magic,
>they simply accept the interaction of the deities and spirits as part of
>every day life. Asatru has those who follow magical traditions and
>practice, but they are, like the shaman, "technicians of the sacred" and
>do not define the community even though a necessary and respected part of
>it.

> We also recognize that not everyone who worships

>the gods of the Norse/Germanic people are Asatru. The term defines a
>religious community, and one that one needs to make a decision to join.
>

> I will not
>make the mistake of assuming it is because you are Wiccan, as I know too
>many Wiccans who it would never occur to as they are capable of fighting
>their own fights and more appropriately addressing conflicts.
>
>Regards,
>Susan Granquist
>http://irminsul.org
>

...a reasoned response from the first to the last.

The off-chance of running into this sort of thing is why I hang out
'round here.

Thank you, Susan.

-- Steve

[S. M. Hewitt]

On Sun, 10 May 1998 12:36:03 -0700, Susan Granquist
<valk...@eskimo.com> wrote:

>Your last message laid the charge that people in Asatru were condeming
>Wicca. This reply doesn't even address that issue, but instead goes into
>a lot of excuses and justifications for condemning those who disagreed
>with you. You have been instrumental in getting a number of people TOS'd
>from that group. Yet you admit to having sent mass e-mailings over
>discussions on the AOL board to people who have had nothing to do with it,
>and based your harrassment on a few individuals statements of an entire
>religion. Beyond spamming this comes very close to hate mail and if it
>does not cease immediately, and AOL does not take some appropriate action
>(and I leave that to them) I will have our lawyer address the problem
>directly.
>
>Regards,
>Susan Granquist
>Drottning, and Presiding Gydhia
>Irminsul Aettir
>http://irminsul.org
>

Heilsa!

Sick 'em, Susan!

Ride, Valkyrie, Ride!

-- Steve

[S. M. Hewitt]

On 10 May 1998 14:45:20 -0600, rae...@moc.noissimx (No one you know)
wrote:

>Asatru as we know it today goes back no further than 1970 or so and can
>probably trace it's roots only back to the Volkisch/Romantic movement of
>19th/early 20th century Germany. No further.
>

...and Catholicism as we know it only dates from Vatican II. What's
your point?

>I really doubt that, other than the Blot and Sumbel, what passes for Norse
>religion today really has much resemblance to what they actually believed
>and did.
>

...I doubt it, too. We weren't allowed to video the rites back then.
But many good meaning people are giving it a darned good try. You
have a problem with people giving things a darned good try, bubba?

>For one thing, the people back then had _lives_. They didn't spend 24/7
>thinking about the gods, or about <snicker> "the endangered white race and
>why we must save it" (tm). Seasonal festivals were observed, but in
>between those festivals how many people really spent their spare time
>obssessed with doing runic magic, race (tm), or warrior values (tm)?
>Probably very few. Most had farms to attend to.
>

...quite right...many then had lives. Rather like now. Most of us
have lives. Obsessing about magic? 24/7? I'm too old to do anything
24/7...it takes me all night to do what I used to do all night....

>For another thing, much of Asatru appears to reflect the worst caricature
>possible of the Viking stereotype that was popularized in 1950's and
>1960's pulp novels, films, and oversized childrens' books of Norse
>mythology.
>--
>--No one you know--

...OK...you've insulted everyone I know. Now, my son...what do *you*
stand for? You've proven yourself pretty adept at running down what
others believe...what do *you* hold dear, hold sacred...?

Why have you suddenly decided to grace us with your august presence,
pissing on all you meet? Is it to promote fairness? A balance of
Left and Right, perhaps? If so, you would need to be fair
yourself...first. If it's balance you want, and as you're the one
making all the stink, kindly offer a reason why you side of the
equation should be listened to. There's been scant little said on
that score so far.

-- Steve

[Vithar Herren]

No one I wanna know wrote:

> Vithar Herren <vit...@flash.net> wrote:
> > MOONPHAlZE pipes in:

> > the
> > > folks not only have made claims that the Asatru/Norse Paganism was ancient
>

> > WHAT!!???? Somebody said Asatru was ancient??? How dare they!!! I

> > mean, it CAN'T be older than 40,000 years or more recent than 3000 years
> > old so who gets off saying it's ancient??? ;-)
>

> Asatru as we know it today goes back no further than 1970 or so and can
> probably trace it's roots only back to the Volkisch/Romantic movement of
> 19th/early 20th century Germany. No further.
>

Another semantic arguement heh? Forget it. We all know Asatru is ancient, you
must be Moonphaize with another pseudonym.

> I really doubt that, other than the Blot and Sumbel, what passes for Norse
> religion today really has much resemblance to what they actually believed
> and did.
>

and I should care what you doubt, because....

> For one thing, the people back then had _lives_. They didn't spend 24/7
> thinking about the gods, or about <snicker> "the endangered white race and
> why we must save it" (tm). Seasonal festivals were observed, but in
> between those festivals how many people really spent their spare time
> obssessed with doing runic magic, race (tm), or warrior values (tm)?
> Probably very few. Most had farms to attend to.
>

So, get off the internet and take up farming! I worked 66 hours last week, and
70 the week before, and spent 16 hours last week designing a corporate webpage. I
also crafted a new shield this weekend, and welded the head of my axe to a solid
steel shaft. I took my wife out and we saw some friends. Asatru wasn't mentioned
at all. Nevertheless, I AM Asatru 24/7 I'm not "religious" only when it suites
me. Maybe you're looking for alt.Xian.hypocrites? Where do you get off with
you're statements? you are stereotyping, and pre-judging, and labeling, and in
general acting like a prick.

If you're not Moonphaize, then do you know anything about what I was referring
to? Did you bother to hit Dejanews? I thought not.

[MOONPHAlZE]

To whom it may concern,

I have enclosed several message postings from the Asatru/Norse Paganism folder
for you to read so that you would have a better idea of the activity on the
Pagan Message Board.

The first person who I had any contact with was AIfatherII aka Vidhar and in
fact I did contact somebody who knew this person before the conflicts escalated
hoping that the conflict between me and him would resolve itself. It is not
just me and if you don't want to agree that is fine. The person who I can
contact with was Cat0610 who is an AOL member.

I have posted messages on the Pagan Message Board under other screen names
hoping that AIfather would not follow me around from folder to folder and that
wasn't successful either and I am convinced that this person knows how to hack
into other people's AOL accounts and get information about them too without
their knowing about it.

Are you and others trying to take me to court? I received an e mail from an
individual who's screen name shall not be mentioned who is very fearful of
AIfatherII aka Vidhar.

My problems with Vidhar did not begin in the Asatru/Norse Paganism folder with
AOL I assure you of that, they began in folders that had nothing to do with
that religious path and that AIfatherII was looking for a fight with me
whenever he could as well as with other people. So you can stop telling me that
I am a trouble maker.

I gather that Angriboda doesn't want to reveal her ancestry on the Pagan
Message Boards that is fine but I have alot of questions here about it. I have
read alot of message postings and I see alot of contradiction and I am very
wary. You folks are scaring off people who might otherwise would like to know
more about Asatru/Norse but when there are people who post messages that
discriminate against other religious paths and ethnic groups, I really become
concerned if they are the type of folks who I could trust.

The only section where I posted that message publically was in the Alt.Asatru
and nowhere else in the Usenet forum so I make that clear to you.

MOONP...@aol.com

In a message dated 5/10/98 12:36:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
valk...@eskimo.com writes:

<< Subj: Re: Asatru/Norse Paganism --------> messages on the Pagan
Message Board
Date: 5/10/98 12:36:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: valk...@eskimo.com (Susan Granquist)
To: MOONP...@aol.com (MOONPHAlZE)
CC: kreim...@nycnet.com (kreimhilde)

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Newsgroups: alt.religion.asatru
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Susan Granquist <valk...@eskimo.com>
To: MOONPHAlZE <MOONP...@aol.com>
cc: kreimhilde <kreim...@nycnet.com>
Subject: Re: Asatru/Norse Paganism --------> messages on the Pagan Message
Board
In-Reply-To: <c4a25c9d...@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980510...@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

>>

I am not going to be labeled as a trouble maker and that I was responding to
some more recently message postings in the Asatru/Norse Paganism folder on AOL

[MOONPHAlZE]

To whom it may concern,

I received your e mail and I would like to also include several AOL messages in
this e mail as well:

Subject: ATOYA on the Norse
Date: 9/19/97 7:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AIfatherII
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

From the Goddess Folder in Pagan Fellowship....

>>>Subj: Re:Loaki/ATOYA
Date: 97-09-19 19:57:43 EDT
From: ATOYA

Speed,
Loaki, is NOT a Goddess I have found. It is a name one of the other
posters(MissRie) asked about. I have never heard of Loaki, and so far I've
turned up nothing on this name. I do not know if someone just feminized Loki
by adding an "A"(which linguisticly makes no sense) or if it refers to a
predecessor of Loki in archaic Norse myth.
As to Norse mythology, I have studied it, but have less than NO INTEREST
in it. Norse mythology is a system whose brutality, female barbarism, male
dominance, violence and deeply disturbing beliefs is nothing I find value in,
nor do I feel it has anything positive to offer the future. Some cultures are
better left forgotten, IMHO, this is one of them. I know pagans who follow the
Norse path, although I can't imagine why. Diana Paxson is an expert in the
ways of the Norse, if you want to pursue
this, or whuy not try a web search.
BB,
Atoya<<<

**************************************************************************
******************************
Subject: Re:ATOYA on the Norse
Date: 9/19/97 10:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Vestik
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

This person obviously looks at things with a pre-determined attitude. That
is, she allready has her mind made up about something before she even
half-understands it. Likely anything that doesn't fit what apears to be her
very constrained criteria for what is "good" is simply labeled and discarded.
Her loss! It is better that such folk are often turned off by "the Norse", the
problem is when such folks are actually attracted by it, and these message
boards show that there are more than a few of
these.

**************************************************************************
******************************
Subject: Re:ATOYA on the Norse
Date: 9/19/97 11:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Speedquail
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

my take on why norse mythology can be pretty brutal: the peoples that
developed the beliefs had to fight to survive against nature, outsiders, and
occasionally each other. their world was not love and white light - how can
anyone expect their gods to be that way, much less the people? seems to be the
belief these days though, that the times of old had this rose colored hue about
them and that everyone lived in peace and harmony amidst a time of plenty.
YEAH SURE. this is fluffy. this is my cultural
heritage and your beliefs being attacked here.
heading off to kick some cottontail and inviting anyone else to come in
vesterveg,
aase

**************************************************************************
******************************

Subject: Re:ATOYA on the Norse
Date: 9/20/97 7:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Godhison
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Atoya, like many of the "Nutty Crunchy" New Agers, seems to have this "left
over from the Hippie" mentality. the reason that those types can exist is
because they were born into a society that had warriors to keep the Nazis and
Stalinists from putting them in a slave labor camp or something similar.

The Norse Gods are kind and gentle when the situation calls for it, and will
take on agitators and enemies when needed. Persons like Atoya usually sit
around and attack those who are not politically correct, only because WE keep
the real evil off their butts.

Also, these "nutty crunchy" types who preach that we suffer from a "Mail
Dominance Idiology" should read the Eddas, especially where Odin (in disguise)
tells King Gulfi "As for Goddesses there are also twelve in number, of no less
power and no less importance".

Hail Odin!

**************************************************************************
******************************
Subject: Norse Thuggery Update
Date: 10/31/97 1:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: ATOYA
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Pagan Chat Log ....Samhain Eve,

Crystalfyr: O.K Eve I don't know a lot of these people What is it
Profit does to IM's?
Sub SN: Dedaanan - shh your still not safe
Cwn Annwn: mm majikkkk and happy samhain to you
Majikkkkkk: BB NINJ
Wichfire: WHAT IS profit UNDER
Cwn Annwn: sub sn
Oceanmoon: Sub SN.
Sub SN: <--
Laustin042: Profit=SUB SN
AIfatherII: PROFIT, can you do me a favor? IM BOMB a fool named
ATOYA, she's on now.
Shabina456: MM {{{{{{{{{{{{{Majikkkkk}}}}}}}}}}} Blessed Samhain to you
Sub SN: I got a Profile you know
Henry1June: Profit second allfather's suggestion
SirRedWolf: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS ALF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kmangwoman: M All :)
Oceanmoon: OK, to make up for my prior running off at the mouth,
I'm gonna page a guide.
MamaPiglet: I'll have to give 'Profit' this - s/he can be clever at
times...
Majikkkkkk: UNI howja like th ritual tonight??
Ginnugagap: KMANG!! {{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}
Ginnugagap: Heilsa, Lady!!
Kmangwoman: {{{ginny}}}}
Mjolnir4: Sub im chalanging you #4 out
Panadero1: It's amazing how just one SUBhuman SNail can ruin a good
evening
Sarameir: mma all
Shabina456: MM {{{{{{{{{{{{{Kmang}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Kmangwoman: Merry meet :)
SirRedWolf: LOL
Wichfire: were didi ISIS go
Kmangwoman: {{{{{Shabina}}}} MM :)
Sub SN: #4 out
E NyGmA11: MM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!
Cwn Annwn: thank you Pan thoughts exactly
BebarSlayr: Well since im not getting any answers, ill be moving
on
Ginnugagap: {S catcall
AIfatherII: Shabina! :)
Mjolnir4: Yea stupid #4
Kmangwoman: LOL Ginn :)
Panadero1: MP all, B*B! Blessed Samhain!!!
E NyGmA11: Does anyone know where I can find more information on
Samhain?
Kmangwoman: {S flattery
Shabina456: Heilsa, Alfather...been in IM land, sorry I didnt greet
you earlier
Ginnugagap: {S wavbeg
Sub SN: what was that screen names
BebarSlayr: Blessed Be, friends cya to all other =-/
Majikkkkkk: {{{KMANG}}}}
AIfatherII: Shabina :)
Ginnugagap: Wassail, Bebar..
MGillis: MM BB All
Henry1June: :) he's back
Kmangwoman: Ginny youre all take and no give :::giggle::::
JSparks936: yes go to www and key in samhain
Sub SN: what was that screen names
Kmangwoman: {{{Majikkk}}}}}
Ninja99: There is some info on AOL and a lot on the internet on
samhain
Majikkkkkk: you WERE AWSOME IN THE RITUAL TONITE!!!
TarotStarz: mm all
Ginnugagap: Kmang.. you have everything I could offer in trade!! : )
Ndance1: May the Moon and Goddess bless you all with sweet
dreams.
Sub SN: what was that screen names
Sub SN: what was that screen names
Sub SN: ??
E NyGmA11: Ok, thanx, Blessed Be, and a very Belssed Samhain.
AIfatherII: ATOYA
Kmangwoman: Majikkkkk you sweetie :)
Cwn Annwn: mm leather
Sub SN: ok
Ndance1: Love and Light
Kmangwoman: thank you :)
Henry1June: MOONPHAZE
Ninja99: Got to go. MP & BB and Happy Samhain to all
Kmangwoman: ok ginn BRB
Dedaanan: anyhow
LeatherElf: {{{{{{{{{ALFATHER}}}}}}}
TarotStarz:

**************************************************************************
******************************

Subject: Norse Thuggery Update Cont'd
Date: 10/31/97 2:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: ATOYA
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Cont'd
>>>>>>>>
LeatherElf: {{{{{{{{{ALFATHER}}}}}}}
TarotStarz: MM all
LeatherElf: MM Annwn
Cwn Annwn: mp/bb nin
AIfatherII: ATOYA, & Moonphaze....I owe you Profit!
Ginnugagap: {{{{Leather}}}}}
AIfatherII: Leather! :)
Henry1June: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
SirRedWolf: You too ND!!!!!!!!!
LeatherElf: {{{{{{{{GINNUGAGAP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Cwn Annwn: leather just call me Cwn
Dedaanan: Like I was saying before I got INTERRUPTED by a certain
LOOSER
LeatherElf: okay Cwn
MamaPiglet: Ok - I'm lost! Someone come find me!
Shabina456: MM {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Leather}}}}}}}}}}}}}<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is this really how you honor the Ancestors on Samhain Eve ?????

**************************************************************************
******************************

Subject: Re:Norse Thuggery Update
Date: 10/31/97 4:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Salome1974
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

From: ATOYA

Pagan Chat Log ....Samhain Eve,

Atoya, please. We are not interested in your tattle-tales. Get over yourself.
Your quarrel is with Alfy, not the rest of us.

Sal

**************************************************************************
******************************

Subject: Heilsa kin!
Date: 11/18/97 8:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AIfatherII
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Heilsa kin!
I'm back online. I'm not done with all of my work, but I'm sure it will get
done.
From here on out, I will be limiting my postings to the Asatru related folders
as I have found that there is nothing to be gained when confronting a blind
herd intent on being in servitude to some mystical all powerful goddess or a
subserviant god, while at the same time bemoaning that all the world needs is
for everyone to accept everyone else and world peace will result.
I wash my hands of this deviant based ilk.
Wes Thu Hal!
Vidar Odinsson
Preist of Odin
:RtR: :TCtO:

**************************************************************************
******************************

Subject: ASATRU / RACISM web research
Date: 12/13/97 2:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaze
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

I went to the website and looked up ASATRU and saw this information listed
below. They seem to single out those whose ancestry is Jewish and calling them
racists. There are the twelve tribes in Judaism and they range from caucassion,
negro, asian, to hispanic as far as their race is concerned. Also the Arabs and
the Jews are also related through Abraham.

I will also note that it was Adolf Hitler who wanted to have a pure Aryan race
with blond hair and blue eyes and anybody not fitting into that category was
captured by the German soldiers and sent off to concentration camps and many
were killed.

Go to Israel and you will see some witches, pagans, and wiccans of Jewish
ancestry.

MoonPhaze

ASATRU/RACISM is listed below:

Asatru and Racism

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because it is the ancestral religion of the Aryan (White) peoples, the religion
of Asatru has been linked with "racism" by ignorant persons and by liars.

Asatru is the name of the religion based on the culture and lore of the Norse
Vikings and is related to Odinism and, more distantly, to other pagan European
religions. Archeological evidence (temple excavations and such) indicates that
Asatru, in some more or less identifiable form, goes back well into prehistory
and might be as old as 40,000 years.

If that is correct, then Asatru would be ten times older than Judaism.

Asatru is not a "racist" religion. It is the ancestral religion of the European
race. We get some of our ideal concepts of honor, truth and loyalty indirectly
from Asatru. The King Arthurian code of chivalry may have came from a Celtic
form of Asatru.

But that doesn't mean that individual Asatruar can't have race-related
opinions, such as the opinion that the races are different and the opinion that
prudent persons should bear these differences in mind when dealing with other
people. Asatruar don't have to be "liberals."

The same goes for most other religions, which are not racist of themselves
(with the exception of Talmudic Judaism, which is very racist of itself), but
whose practitioners are free to hold or to abstain from holding racial
prejudices, or having the opinions appropriate to someone knowledgeable of
racial matters.

There is no stronger connection than that between Asatru and "racism."

**************************************************************************
******************************

Subject: Re:ASATRU / RACISM web resea
Date: 12/14/97 12:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AIfatherII
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

I urge my brothers and sisters to police their comments...Such is the ease at
getting TOSed over the ploys of our attackers...There are other ways...
Vidar

**************************************************************************
******************************
Subject: Bindings.
Date: 12/14/97 1:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AIfatherII
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Subj: Read this before you get TOS
Date: 97-12-14 03:07:03 EST
From: AIfatherII

I don't anyone getting TOSed over my current plight of being harassed falsely.
Don't fall for the bait...I suggest ritual bindings...We all know that our
strength is greater than Wicca could ever produce, given that, our attackers
will surely fall. Of course, I'm not asking anyone to do anything they choose
not to. I'm a big boy and I am dealing with this by filing TOS reports as
needed.
Wes Thu Hal!
Vidar

**************************************************************************
******************************

Subject: Re:Asatru/Norse Heathenry
Date: 12/27/97 12:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: SONoHAR9
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Any postings accusing Norse of being nazis, racist, etc., are serious TOS
violations and could be dealt with by AOL's Community Action Team. <<<<<<

A vexing on those who would falsely accuse us of such!
Helse!
Har's son

**************************************************************************
******************************

[MOONPHAlZE]

Subject: To my kin!
Date: 12/14/97 10:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Vidhar
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Vidhar---Vidar Odinsson, a son of Har, our Godking.
Lords Loki, Odin and Thor, have decreed that a totally new account, free of any

history of conflict will strengthen their sons in battle. Thus, email sent to
this account by non-kin can constitue a TOS, false claims against this account
can be dealt with more effectively. There is strength in our faith, a strength
that some will never understand.

Wes Thu Hal!
Vidar Odinsson
Preist of Odin
:RtR: :TCtO:

All kin are invited to email me.

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re:Bindings.
Date: 12/14/97 6:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Salome1974
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

MoonPhaze screeched:

LEAVE THE JEWISH PEOPLE ALONE........INCLUDING THOSE WHO SEEK AND PRACTICE THE
WICCA, WITCHCRAFT AND THE PAGAN RELIGION>>

Holy cow. Moony, again, I implore of you to rent a clue. Vidar made no
racist remarks toward the Jewish People. He made mention of a "dead Jew" or
something like that. And those of us with intelligence knew he was implying
Jesus. You know, the son of the god we don't acknowledge?
Please, in case you've not noticed, we Asatru types are very protective of our
kinfolk, and its unwise to come to our folders blathering nonsense about one of
us. Go away, please. Unless you have something useful to share, which I doubt.

Sal

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re:Bindings.
Date: 12/14/97 8:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Ginnugagap
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Ps. You can still create a profile saying that you are into the Norse practice,
your member name, sex, age, etc. as long as you don't cross over the boundries.

So nice of Moonphaze to allow you to make a profile, eh, my brother? ; )

Firstly, I would like to adress this message...
LEAVE THE JEWISH PEOPLE ALONE........INCLUDING THOSE WHO SEEK AND PRACTICE THE
WICCA, WITCHCRAFT AND THE PAGAN RELIGION

I do not believe my brother made any pasrticular remark about the Jewish people
other than to point out a fact. Jesus, a Jew of ancient times... is indeed dead
by our standards. It is actually documented in Roman court records, that he
lived, was sentenced, and died. End of discussion.
And while Vidar is a bit abrasive to to those not Asatru, if you would leave
him alone, you would find that he is not nearly as bad.

IF YOU DON'T WANT ANY FURTHER PROBLEMS ON LINE, DON'T CREATE PROFILES THAT
SUGGEST IN ANY WAY THAT YOU ARE A RACIST OR OTHERWISE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE
JUDGED AS BEING BIGGOTED BY OTHERS WHO READ THE PAGAN MESSAGE BOARDS

May I ask one question? Who are you, or any of us, to judge someone? Do you
know Vidar? I think not, or else only what you have heard from certain folks
that mewl when their insults are sent back with a bit of accuracy. So, you can
tell that Im racist? I live in Nashville... Im a big guy, I am Asatru.. I drive
a truck. :) Come, please.. make a judgement on me, too...

...........AND I WANT TO FOCUS ON AN APARTMENT IN BOSTON MASS WHERE I DO MY
MODELING FOR ART SCHOOLS AND NOT ON DOING ANY BINDING RITUALS FOR YOU OR FOR
ANYBODY ELSE..........

LIVE AND LET LIVE AIFATHERII

My favorite line.... PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH, BEFORE YOU ATTEMPT TO TELL ME
HOW TO ACT!!

Thank you for your time.
::bowing::

Wassail,
Peter Cameron
Berserkpath Asatru
Odhinns man

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Manic MoonPhazes
Date: 12/14/97 11:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: HoddMimir
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Moonphaze, woman!

I am very offended by your profile. If you want to have no problems
online, you had better remove the references distinquishing men from boys from
your profile. We do not believe in making such distinctions in age unlike your
former religion, Judaism, which you so wantonly abandoned, yet so tonatously
defend. I feel that as a follower of the goddess you are impugning the rights
of men in your profile. You have no right to your own thoughts and opinions on
the matter, and anything in your profile
that anyone finds offensive will be used against you, and made an issue of
TOS. When we are done with our rightous battle against you, we will return to
tilting at wind-mills.
The "dead jew" Alfather was referring to was Jesus, which your former
religion does not even acknowledge as anything more than a prophet~ but
considering you are Wiccan, perhaps you see him as another aspect of the
Goddess. The ovens have been destroyed, the yellow stars are now museum pieces,
the good conquered the evil, Isreal is real~ all is right in the world. Your
people (which undoubtedly have performed a funeral for you, as you now worship
the golden calf) were not the only ones placed in
those ovens either~ Do you so adamantly defend the gypsies, the slavs, the
homosexuals, and other such sub-humans who were victims of the Nazis'
concentration camps, or are you so busy patting yourself on the back that you
fail to do this? The world does not need half-witted, and half-cocked defenders
such as yourself, and I highly doubt even such an enlightened religion as
Judaism would accept you, as a Wiccan, and defender of the faith. So, please,
get over yourself, won't you?

>Member Name: MoonPhaze
Location: United States
Birthdate: 1/24/56
Sex: Female
Marital Status: Prefer men to boys
Hobbies: creating soft sculptures, ethnic music, reading, food
Computers: compaq presario
Occupation: freelance
Personal Quote: I speak the truth regardless of the outcome

What are you doing with boys anyway? The mere insinuation of pedophelia
offends me and is a clear violation of TOS. Perhaps you should focus more on
actual truth, than what you perceive as truth, and think a bit more about the
outcomes, before you leap off the deep end. Get a grip, before the binding
spells get a grip on you! You give new meaning to the term Picka-Wicca.

Be Whole~HoddMimir

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Over zealous Nazi-Hunters
Date: 12/15/97 5:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Oskysk
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

It seems highly ironic that "witches" would be on a "witch-hunt" for Nazis in
these folders. Wasn't it just a few centuries ago that a few people, acting
from fear and narrowmindedness, hunted down anyone perceived in any way to be a
witch, and unfairly persecuted them?
Wasn't it just a few decades ago that a few people hunted down anyone they
perceived to be "non-Aryan" and persecuted them unfairly?
So what is the deal? Do we follow the example of Grand Inquisitors and
Gestapos and go after with extreme prejudace and "rightousness" those whom we
perceive to be a "threat"?
Irrational anti-racism is as bad as racism...in fact it is the other head of
the same snake.
It seems everyone is expected to be proud of their race but those of Germanic
descent. If we are proud we are evil, we are Nazis, and we are to be censored.
Asatru is to an extent, a religious pride in ones own heritage, ones
ancestors, ones genes, ones culture and ones language. This dos not mean "we"
are racists!
It is the under-confident, insecure and convoluted mind that perceives pride
in ones self (or race) as a hatred of others or other races. It is the mind
that turns stregnth into weakness and pride into shame. Let go of your shame!
Accept your self and your race, be confident in these things and you will have
no need to either feel superior or to perceive that others are persecuting you.

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re:Manic MoonPhazes
Date: 12/16/97 5:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaze
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

HoddMimir,

In response to your posting and my profile, you have nothing to use against me
as far as my profile is concerned and it is just that: I prefer men to
boys-------------> I am a woman so therefore I want a man "PERIOD" nothing more
and nothing less than that.

I know that you are angry because I went to the WWW and researched Asatru and
posted the literature and posted my comments in regards to the literature. That
must have made your blood boil.

My ethnic roots will always be Jewish regardless of what religious or spiritual
path I follow. And yes, I was offened by AIfatherII--------->Vidhar's profile
in which he did delete.

Yes, Jesus was a Jew and he was a teacher and wise man.

>>>>You have no right to your own thoughts and opinions on the matter, and
anything in your profile that anyone finds offensive will be used against you,
and made an issue of TOS.<<<<

Yes, I do have rights and I forward your posting to TOS

I also still have contact with my family and it really would be narrowmined to
disown a family member just because they choose to follow a different spiritual
path other than the one they were brought up on. So what spiritual path were
you brought up on, HoddMimir?????

>>>>~ Do you so adamantly defend the gypsies, the slavs, the homosexuals, and
other such sub-humans who were victims of the Nazis' concentration camps, or
are you so busy patting yourself on the back that you fail to do this? <<<<

They were also victimized by the Nazis and frankly this paragraph of your's is
very antagonistic for and comming from somebody who's race has never been at
stake by the Nazi's.

And again, there is nothing in my profile that is a TOS violation and it was
"I" who created that profile and that if it is changed or deleted it is because
somebody has signed on to my account illegally. In fact I forward your posting
in which you posted my profile in this folder to TOS.

As far as my beliefs are concerned, that is really none of your business. And I
choose not to add it to my profile.

Now what are you waiting for????? Go tend to the Wind-mills and never mind the
battle against me. You may win but you lose in the end..........

MoonPhaze

Ps. You must have really eye balled the marital status portion of my profile to
make it so significant to post about it in the folder. There must be something
missing in your life that you
have to focus so much on that part of my profile.

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Subject: Re:Manic MoonPhazes
Date: 12/16/97 10:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Laeradhr
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

To Oskysk,
Well-said, couldn't have shouted that better myself.

Moonphaze,
Thank you for the laughs....I happen to KNOW Hodd a bit and your comments set
me to laughing so hard I crushed two Cds falling back on the floor. Thank you,
and as for your Goddess, I begin to suspect you truly serve Eris.:)

Frith and Raw Green Mead (Yum!!!)
Chris

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Subject: Hello HoddMimir
Date: 12/16/97 5:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AnnaMinsky
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Hello HoddMimir,

I don't know of any other way to greet you. I hope that you don't object to my
replying to your posting in this folder.

I would like to share with you and others that there have been many changes in
the Jewish culture especially over 5 decades since WWII in that the Jewish
culture in modern times is not valued the same way as it has been in the past.
Alot of it has to do with blending into the main stream and having the material
possessions that other people have.

The tradtion of keeping a Kosher home is no longer kept by the majority of the
Jewish population for the exception of the Chasidic and Orthodox Jews. The
reason the Jews kept a Kosher home was because there was no refrigeration and
that food would spoil easily to the point of food poisoning. But because of
refrigeration, a majority of the Jews have become very modernized and they eat
what ever they want.

Also, a majority of the Jewish families don't feel that it is important for
their children to go to temple on Friday nights and Saturday mornings and so
are not religious in their beliefs. There is also the lack to teaching the
Jewish culture to their young and that being a yuppie like other people is far
more important so they devote much more time to making money than the
spirituality of the Jewish path.

As far as the Arayan people are concerned, many Jews also were very fair
complected with blond hair and blue eyes. They also had the most chance of
surviving the holocost because they blend in to what Hitler expected the human
population to be.

Also there were Arayan people who were very good to the Jews in that they
protected many of the Jews from being captured by the Nazis by hiding them in
their homes. If I must add, if it wasn't for the true Arayan people protecting
the Jews, many of them would have perished.

I also see many of the Arayan folks as being very strong willed especially the
men. They are very strong physically as they have traveled by sea as Vikings. I
will also add that they are very attractive and handsome people. That should be
a compliment to your people.

As for your friend on line, I would say that you are much more mature than he
is in that you don't have the need to impress people who read the folder with
using titles. I feel that there should be some kind truce to this problem on
the message board as well as the profile that your friend created. It would
give me great joy to see two people make up and be friends.

Be A Good Soul

AnnaMinsky

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Subject: Re:Manic MoonPhazes
Date: 12/16/97 8:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Ginnugagap
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Heilsa, all... a few points to make here.

1. I prefer men to boys-------------> I am a woman so therefore I want a man
"PERIOD" nothing more and nothing less than that.

This is the same thing, exactl;y, as saying that you are Asatru, and therefore
desire to speak only to Asatru. PERIOD. If one comment invites no ridicule, how
does the other? Besides the fact that it seems to be the fad to jump on
Norsemen these days. Discrimination of religion goes both ways on this
particular highway to Hel, Lady Moonphaze.

2. I know that you are angry because I went to the WWW and researched Asatru
and posted the literature and posted my comments in regards to the literature.
That must have made your blood boil.

Most likely as much as it makes the blood of you and your fellow Wiccans boil
for us to denounce your claim that " Your Goddess gave birth to our God(s). "
And for us to point out that while our religious lineage goes back well into
recorded history, mainstream Wicca started in the late 60's with one mans
interpretation.

3. >>>>You have no right to your own thoughts and opinions on the matter, and
anything in your profile that anyone finds offensive will be used against you,
and made an issue of TOS.<<<<

Yes, I do have rights and I forward your posting to TOS

Have you considered a job, perhaps as our noble Presidents spin doctor? Your
talent for taking things out of the context in which they were written and
meant is something that would be a legendary defense for any politician.

4. Ps. You must have really eye balled the marital status portion of my profile
to make it so significant to post about it in the folder. There must be
something missing in your life that you
have to focus so much on that part of my profile.

??????? We thought perhaps, as you stated earlier... that since it WAS in your
profile, it was therefor our buisness. You seemed very set in making sure that
it was put there.. making sure that anyone who was intelligent enough to read
it was sure to see it. If you can use our profiles against us, we can surely
use yours against you.

Thanks.....
Wassail, vas tu hael... may the Gods heal your flawed and damaged sense of what
we are, and what our name, Asa - Tru, means.

Ginnungagap
Berserk-path Asatru

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Subject: Re:Manic MoonPhazes/MM
Date: 12/16/97 9:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Oskysk
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Manic Moon,
I am curious as to your research methods. I'm sure they are quite objective
considering that you went into your research with predetermined ideas
oncerning Asatru.
I am also curious as to what web-page you are refering to. There are many
Asatru WWWpages. You make it sound as if there is only one by saying "The
Asatru Web Page", and that this represents the attitude of all Asatruar. To be
honest I think you made it up because you are a person suffering from a severe
persecution complex.
It is a shame that you need to censor others. Your attitude and actions are
much more like those of Nazis than any others that I've seen on this board.
I hope you find in yourself to throw your troll off your back or it sounds as
if it will consume you.

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Subject: Greetings Oskysk
Date: 12/16/97 10:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaze
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Greetings Oskysk,

I would like to respond to your comment listed below:

>>>> To be honest I think you made it up because you are a person suffering
from a severe persecution complex. <<<<

I went to the WWW and looked up this information that you had claimed that I
made up.

MoonPhaze

1 go to AOL net FIND Results

2 type in Asatru

3 click on find

4 click on Asatru and Racism

68% Asatru and Racism   more like this...
URL:http://pw1.netcom.com/~jna/facts/asatru.html
Summary: But that doesn't mean that individual Asatruar can't have race-related

opinions, such as the opinion that the races are different and the opinion that
prudent persons should bear these differences in mind when dealing with other

people. The same goes for most other religions, which are not racist of

themselves (with the exception of Talmudic Judaism, which is very racist of

itself), but.

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Subject: Re:Bindings.
Date: 12/17/97 12:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: HoddMimir
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

MoonCrazed~

LEAVE THE ASATRUR FOLK ALONE........INCLUDING THOSE WHO SEEK AND PRACTICE THE
GALDER SEIDHR AND THE HEATHEN RELIGION

IF YOU DON'T WANT ANY FURTHER PROBLEMS ON LINE, DON'T CREATE POSTS THAT SUGGEST
IN ANY WAY THAT YOU ARE SMALL-MINDED OR OTHERWISE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE
JUDGED AS BEING IGNORANT BY OTHERS WHO READ THE PAGAN MESSAGE BOARDS

LEAVE ME OUT OF YOUR BINDING RITUALS AND I WILL DO THE SAME------------>MUTUAL
RESPECT FOR ONE ANOTHER AND THEIR RACE, ETHNIC ROOTS, RELIGIOUS AND SPIRITUAL
BELIEFS

>I WILL NOT BE PUSHED OVER THE EDGE

(Sorry Hon, you're on your own here~Seems to me you are a bit over the edge
now.)

...........AND I WANT TO FOCUS ON AN APARTMENT IN BOSTON MASS WHERE I DO MY
MODELING FOR ART SCHOOLS (now I see where the boys, come in) AND NOT ON DOING
ANY BINDING RITUALS FOR YOU OR FOR ANYBODY ELSE..........

You mean instead of searching Asatru sites for evidence of Nazism? By the way,
which site did you get that off? I for one do not recognize it. There are many
Asatru sites out there and I think you would find as many views on them as
there are people in this room. But then we didn't bother to engage in
discussion, before we jumped over the edge, did we? I'm sure all jews are just
the same, as are all Asatruarfolk, isn't that right? Perhaps your lessons in
art taught you the techinque of painting with a
broad brush~can't whitewash us, babe.

LIVE AND LET LIVE MOONPHAZE

>Ps. You can still create a profile saying that you are into the Norse
practice, your member name, sex, age, etc. as long as you don't cross over the
boundries.

Who died and made you the goddess? Your FASCISM is showing little one. Next,
you'll be shaving your moustache! HEIL MOONPHAZE!!!

CAN WE HAVE OUR FOLDER BACK OR DO YOU NEED ANOTHER TOS VIOLATION ON YOUR
ACCOUNT? AS I RECALL THIS IS NOT THE JEWISH WITCH WITH AN AXE TO GRIND FOLDER.

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Subject: Re:Greetings Oskysk
Date: 12/17/97 12:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Oskysk
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Moon,
None the less you suffer from "persecution complex"! You poor confused
women, of course you are going to get such results when the only page you are
researching is "Jerrys Aryan Battle Page" LOL. Come on allready! There are SO
MANY other Asatru pages, and you just happened to pick this one for your
"objective" research. You might as well have made it up!
You are obviously not one to be taken seriously and I think even the ever
vigilant Aol TOS Police must realize this by now.
Away with you, silly woman!

LOL

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Subject: Re:Hello HoddMimir
Date: 12/17/97 2:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: HoddMimir
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Hail Anna,

I have no ill will toward Moon. As you may have noticed my post was
written tongue in cheek. Your friend has made many assumptions about Asatru and
Asatruarfolk which simply are not so (a big wink to you, Laeradhr). She
continues to show her ignorance, by her continued assumptions in her further
posts. Far from making my blood boil, I for one have gotten a big laugh out of
it as I'm sure most of us have~ Go back a ways to the postings of ATOYA and
you'll see what I mean.

>I know that you are angry because I went to the WWW and researched Asatru and
posted the literature and posted my comments in regards to the literature. That
must have made your blood boil.

There are many sizes and shapes of Asatru. One size does not fit all~ you can
find it all from UFOs, to Nazis, to Nature worshippers, to people who see
visions--but the majority of us are tolerant, scholarly, spirititual people.
I'm sure Judiasm has as many flavors. Do not judge a book by its
title~especially if its a short one like "Judaism" or "Asatru."

>My ethnic roots will always be Jewish regardless of what religious or
spiritual path I follow. And yes, I was offended by
AIfatherII--------->Vidhar's profile in which he did delete.

Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Why should he have? It is you who misunderstood it, rather than he who miswrote
it. Shame on you, Alfather for changing it because a rabid dog found it
offensive. ;)

>Yes, Jesus was a Jew and he was a teacher and wise man.

And he's dead, so what's your point? What is offensive?

>You have no right to your own thoughts and opinions on the matter, and
anything in your profile that anyone finds offensive will be used against you,
and made an issue of TOS.<

I have read TOS and find nothing in my post which any rational human being
would construe as a violation. However disrupting message boards is a
violation. Ring any bells there, Moonie? You came here specifically to harass
a board-member and bash our faith.

> Yes, I do have rights and I forward your posting to TOS

You wouldn't know a little humour if it jumped up and bit you on the
funny-bone! I was holding a mirror up to your own FASCIST post. You are not the
Thought Police. Perhaps a Keystone Thought-Cop, but it is YOU who have no right
to decide where the line is, who crossed it, and what the penalty is. Get a
grip. I will gladly fight you in a court of TOS. Try me.

>I also still have contact with my family and it really would be narrowminded
to disown a family member just because they choose to follow a different
spiritual path other than the one they were brought up on.

Orthodox Jews do hold funerals for their children who marry gentiles. That was
my reference. I don't recall any mention of the goddess in the Old Testament
and specifically "Thou shalt have no other Gods (or Goddesses, hun) before Me!"
But then you are speaking of Jews as a race rather than a religion, so touché.

>So what spiritual path were you brought up on, HoddMimir?

Christianity. I forgive you.

> Do you so adamantly defend the gypsies, the slavs, the homosexuals, and other
such sub-humans who were victims of the Nazis' concentration camps, or are you
so busy patting yourself on the back that you fail to do this? <

>They were also victimized by the Nazis and frankly this paragraph of your's is
very antagonistic for and coming from somebody who's race has never been at
stake by the Nazi's.

How little you know about me and Alfather! Keep showing your ignorance. It is
amusing to no end.

>As far as my beliefs are concerned, that is really none of your business.

Ditto! So go back to the "Irrational Jewish Witches With An Axe to Grind"
folder.
Now "Begone, before someone drops a house on you!"

>Ps. You must have really eye balled the marital status portion of my profile
to make it so significant to post about it in the folder.

It was the little boy in me! >:-) Besides, you're kinda cute when your nostrils
flare like that.

Hodd-Imp

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Subject: Re:Manic MoonPhazes
Date: 12/17/97 8:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: OsricThyl
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Excuse me, MoonPhaze, but do you know what race Hoddmimir is a part of? What
if he's half black? What is he's polish. The Polish are European. Some of them
are even Saxons. And yet, they were persecuted by the Nazis.

You have rights? Of course you have. You just don't have the brains the Gods
gave a brass doorknob. THAT WAS IRONY. He was making remarks much like yours
and YOU DIDNT EVEN GET IT!! Why don't you put your victim's credentials away.
We're not impressed. You've never been in a prison camp. Youve probably never
been to Germany. Go heal the whales with good vibrations or something.

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Subject: Re:Hello HoddMimir
Date: 12/17/97 8:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: OsricThyl
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Vidar, I am not sure this fair-spoken maiden is that other creature. Beware
lest you crush a civilian in the fray...

Osric

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Subject: Brazen Osric ThyI
Date: 12/17/97 8:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaze
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

>>>>You've never been in a prison camp. Youve probably never been to
Germany.<<<<

Then you are not familiar with reincarnation, OsricThyl

Don't be so sure of yourself in what you say about me

MoonPhaze

Ps. physical markings carry over from a previous life to the next life as well
as certain fears

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Subject: Re:Brazen Osric ThyI
Date: 12/17/97 9:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Vidhar
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

>>>Then you are not familiar with reincarnation, OsricThyl<<<

ROFLOL please, stop ROFLOL the madness ROFLOL this is a norse folder ROFLOL not
a wiccan reincarnation folder ROFLOL for the spirits of the murdered ROFLOL to
be maligned by unsane postings ROFLOL ::::tears, tears:::: if you continue, we
will all TOS you. Go away and be at peace among your own kind. If you stay, you
are disrupting this folder and will be TOSed.
Vidar
Preist of Odin
ROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOL I mean it, one more post and I TOS away your
disruption. If you do not want to discuss Asatru in a reasonable light, then
you should not be disrupting this folder. This is a support folder, not a
folder for you to disrupt those of a like mind.

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[MOONPHAlZE]

Subject: Phazed Former Lives
Date: 12/17/97 10:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Laeradhr
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Moonphaze,
Indeed! I myself was both Caesar Augustus and several of his lovers in a
former incarnation. Such things tend to carry over into one's present body,
tis true...perhaps you and Vidhar are in fact the reicarnations of a messy
divorce in the Middle Ages, it would explain so much...(sorry Vidhar).
NO! I have it....you formerly lived in Rome, and the lead poisoning of the
brain from the Baths is still with you..!!!
ROFLMVAO!!
Hail Eris, Sister!
Chris

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Subject: Re:Brazen Hussy
Date: 12/17/97 10:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: HoddMimir
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

>>Then you are not familiar with reincarnation, OsricThyl

This explains why you switched religions in this life, OK now I get it. You
were burned as a Jew in the last life, so you became a witch to avoid the same
fate. Wait, don't they burn witches too? Well, better luck next time around.

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Subject: Screaming Mimi
Date: 12/17/97 11:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: HoddMimir
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

<<Ps. physical markings carry over from a previous life to the next life as
well as certain fears>>

This reminds me of an old FarSide cartoon. In it, a Deer has a big red target
on his chest. Another Deer standing nearby says:

"Bummer of a birthmark, Hal!"

I hear you can get tattooes removed these days. Its amazing the progress we
have made in the last 50 years. Now the fear, you'll have to see a shrink for
that. They can be pretty expensive, but then I hear the Swiss government may be
handing out checks soon~ I'm sure they will have one with Anna Minsky's name on
it. Proof may be another matter.

Please take it to the Reincarnated-former-Jew-now-Irrational-Witch folder under
Pagan Chatter, won't you?

Where is Argus when you need him? The disruption in this folder is getting
old.

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Subject: Re:Phazed Former Lives
Date: 12/18/97 3:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Ginnugagap
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

Indeed! I myself was both Caesar Augustus and several of his lovers in a former
incarnation. Such things tend to carry over into one's present body, tis
true...perhaps you and Vidhar are in fact the reicarnations of a messy divorce
in the Middle Ages, it would explain so much...(sorry Vidhar).

Chris!!
You were Ceasar?!? I though I got to be Caesar this life time around!!! Fine,
fine... but I get to be both Irwin Rommel and Napoleon this time! ; )

RtR,
Peter

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Subject: Re:Brazen Osric ThyI

Date: 12/18/97 4:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Shaksway
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

I remember my past life so well now. I remember it was MoonPhaze who was the
S.S. officer in charge of the medical experiments....:-)

get a life Moonphaze!

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[MOONPHAlZE]

Subject: Conspiracy theory
Date: 4/22/98 5:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Aelfric19
Message-id: <199804230034...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

We all know that Norse Pagan boards must take a secondary priority on AOL to
much more PC pagan topics. the Klingon Wicca board from several months ago
comes to mind. Wicca is the REAL form of Paganism, and our folders will be
cancelled at the first opportunity.
To prevent this, I say we do the typically Germanic thing about it. Fight for
our territory. I would like to encourage all Norse Pagans on this board to post
as much as possible in each of the Germanic Related topics. The two Norse
paganism folders on this board do not have a problem with getting people to
post. But there is also the Theodish folder, the Eddas Folder in Pagan chatter,
and the Germanic Mysticism folder which are all important for us
to keep. Lets post as much as possible on them to keep them from being lost. I
am sure that the people who run these boards are just itching to replace our
folders with much better topics like "Wiccan Coloring Books" and "Feminist Zen
Crystal Astrology".
So lets keep the boards I mentioned full. We all read the Eddas, so lets post
on what we read in the edda folder. Many of us are into other forms of germanic
mysticism, so questions comments and rants are needed there. We cannot give the
others an inch of ground! Lets defend our cyber territory from being replaced
with folders like "Wiccan men who know how to cry"
I plan on posting as much as possible in these areas as soon as i have time. I
hope my brethren will follow my example.
A Message from The Church of Thunderer Thor of Later day Visigoths

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Subject: human cloning and religion
Date: 4/22/98 8:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Shaksway
Message-id: <199804230354...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

Seeking info on pagan views concerning human cloning for a website on Human
Cloning and World Religions. Would appeciate individual comments or pointers to
all ready existing articles.

thanks

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Subject: Re: human cloning and religion
Date: 4/30/98 8:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaize
Message-id: <199804301524...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

Date: 4/22/98 11:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Shaksway
Message-id: <199804230354...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

Seeking info on pagan views concerning human cloning for a website on Human
Cloning and World Religions. Would appeciate individual comments or pointers to
all ready existing articles.

thanks

I don't know about other people in the Pagan community welcoming the idea of
human cloning because just like test tube babies, they are not natural and
considered a violation of nature in itself.

This issue regarding human cloning would also stem from the Nazi regime in
which medical experiments were done on human beings and I will include links to
those webpages too:

Auschwitz: Medical experimentation - Mengele

Auschwitz: Medical experimentation - Clauberg...

A shrunken head of a prisoner, discovered at ...

High-Altitude medical experiments in Dachau

I ALSO URGE YOU TO LOOK AT YOUR MESSAGE POSTING TO ME FROM LAST YEAR

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

MoonPhaze

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

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Subject: Re: Conspiracy theory
Date: 4/30/98 9:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaize
Message-id: <199804301601...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

>>>>We all know that Norse Pagan boards must take a secondary priority on AOL
to much more PC pagan topics. the Klingon Wicca board from several months ago
comes to mind.<<<<<
well that all depends on how you view your position on the Pagan Message Board
and only you have control in your thought process. If you think that you will
be secondary, then you will continue to be, just plain and simple.
>>>>>Wicca is the REAL form of Paganism, and our folders will be cancelled at
the first opportunity. <<<<<
so a good suggestion would be to e mail others of like mind and ask them to
contribute to the various folders that you mention in your message posting by
posting messages. But what does Wicca have anything to do with it??????
>>>>>To prevent this, I say we do the typically Germanic thing about it. Fight
for our territory.<<<<<
talking about territory, I have seen many Norse folk chat in the Pagan Chat
room as well as the Ask A Witch (special interests and life) chat rooms and I
don't see that as a problem, however there was one person who stepped over the
boundaries by harassing others both in the Pagan chat room as well as the AAW
chat room, and I will also add that this person has over stepped boundaries by
postingsoffensive messages in other folders such as the Afro American folder as
well as folders on feminism and "Wicca" I know because I have read some of the
message postings myself.
>>>>>I would like to encourage all Norse Pagans on this board to post as much
as possible in each of the Germanic Related topics. The two Norse paganism
folders on this board do not have a problem with getting people to post.<<<<<
well that is good to know that at least two of the folders are having good luck
>>>>>But there is also the Theodish folder, the Eddas Folder in Pagan chatter,
and the Germanic Mysticism folder which are all important for us to keep.<<<<<
there is nothing wrong with the folders and they are very educational and I
have also looked up some of the links to the Asatru/Norse websites. There is
alot to offer as long as there is no infringement on other religious paths.
>>>>>Lets post as much as possible on them to keep them from being lost. I am
sure that the people who run these boards are just itching to replace our
folders with much better topics like "Wiccan Coloring Books" and "Feminist Zen
Crystal Astrology". <<<<<
well I am sure that the folks who are in charge of the boards are also reading
messages in this folder which make attacks to other religious paths too in
which I see alot of it in this folder lately. And what do you have against
feminism anyway? This statement sounds very sexist in my opinion. If you look
in the other folders on the Pagan Message Board, you will never see any message
posting that tearsdown Asatru/Norse Paganism and I guarantee you that.
>>>>>So lets keep the boards I mentioned full. We all read the Eddas, so lets
post on what we read in the edda folder. Many of us are into other forms of
germanic mysticism, so questions comments and rants are needed there.<<<<<
that's fine, there is nothing wrong with posting messages pertaining to
material that you have read so long as it is just that.
>>>>>>We cannot give the others an inch of ground! Lets defend our cyber
territory from being replaced with folders like "Wiccan men who know how to
cry" <<<<<<
so what if a man knows how to cry!!!!!!! that should not mean that he is weak
in any sense of the word just that when a man releases his emotions, he runs
less risk of getting a heart attack. There is too much of the stereo type
between the men and women in my opinion. But what does Wicca have to do with a
man crying???????
I plan on posting as much as possible in these areas as soon as i have time. I
hope my brethren will follow my example.

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

MoonPhaze

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

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Subject: Re: Conspiracy theory
Date: 4/30/98 9:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AsaBolverk
Message-id: <199804301616...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

Moonphaise wrote:
talking about territory, I have seen many Norse folk chat in the Pagan Chat
room as well as the Ask A Witch (special interests and life) chat rooms and I
don't see that as a problem, however there was one person who stepped over the
boundaries by harassing others both in the Pagan chat room as well as the AAW
chat room, and I will also add that this person has over stepped boundaries by
postings
offensive messages in other folders such as the Afro American folder as well as
folders on feminism and "Wicca" I know because I have read some of the message
postings myself.

Actually there were TWO who may have stepped over the line, but only the
Asatruar was messed with by Aol for it. I know because I reposted the other
one myself on more than one occation. The fact remains that Aol only sees
Wiccans as the "real Pagans". I believe that it is because of numbers of
subscribers and the $ is the final determining factor as to who Aol will mess
with. Its like when you think of "Fast Food" you think of MacDonalds, when
you think of "Pagan" you think of Wicca. That retired English Postal worker,
or Railroad worker or whatever he was really started a big business.
*************************************************
Fear not the web of a dead spider!

Hail Odin!

Tony

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re: human cloning and religion
Date: 4/30/98 3:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Runewight
Message-id: <199804302225...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

I would say go clone yourself but you already post too much asininae on all the
pagan message boards. Here is your pointer anyway: YOUR EGO>your soul, shrink
your ego, grow your soul or barring that change your screen name to PMS, BB MP
Snippy Wench
Rune...@aol.com

Anglo-Saxon
Heathen

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re: human cloning and religion
Date: 4/30/98 4:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaize
Message-id: <199804302356...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

>>>>>I would say go clone yourself but you already post too much asininae on
all the pagan message boards. Here is your pointer anyway: YOUR EGO>your soul,
shrink your ego, grow your soul or barring that change your screen name to PMS,
BB MP Snippy Wench<<<<<

Lets get something straight here, the Pagan Message Board is open to anybody
who chooses to post to them and including this folder. Furthermore, I was
replying to this subject of my own choosing and that the Germans were the first
to do experiments on human beings and I added the links to the webpage to prove
that fact whether you like it or not.

If I must correct you, there is only one Pagan Message Board but many folders
dealing with various subjects to various paths in Wicca, Witchcraft and
Paganism.

As for my screen name, I have no intensions of changing my screen name thank
you and if you dislike my message postings, you need not read them.

Thank you very much

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

MoonPhaze

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Moonphaize Wants Me Bad
Date: 4/30/98 8:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Runewight
Message-id: <199805010315...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

But she cant have me and neither can her clone. Stop with the IMs Moon Im
married for "Gods" sake. I know you hate to love me (and vice versa), I hate it
that you love me too but you must get on with your life. You'll find another in
time, it might help if you lose a little weight by the way, If it'll help you
get over me i wont reply to any more of your messages. So please, please leave
me alone. This means: dont EM me, dont IM me, dont
stalk me, dont make me get a protective order. Posting to Board
Rune...@aol.com

Anglo-Saxon
Heathen

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: OPEN TO ALL
Date: 5/1/98 3:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AsaBolverk
Message-id: <199805011016...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

Someone recently posted that the pagan boards were open to all so the would
post on the Norse folders whenever they wanted. Simply ignor outsiders who are
just posting to cause trouble, especially those who seem to single out one
member to attack. Aol doesn't seem to care about tose violations of
individuals some groups, but will mess with the Norse. This has been proven in
the past, so be wary of your own postings. Also, contrary to
statements made in some folders, this type individual has a history several
screen names so you are never sure of who you are responding to. TOSEMAIL1
violations of the rules, (even the boaderline cases) even though some seem to
have immunity to the reporting. If no one breaks the rules, they shouldn't
have anything to complain about, nor problems in OUR folders,..... right? And
anyone taking this as an attack, must have a guilty feelings
somewhere in their sorded past.

*************************************************
Fear not the web of a dead spider!

Hail Odin!

Tony

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re: OPEN TO ALL
Date: 5/1/98 2:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaize
Message-id: <199805012151...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

Subject: OPEN TO ALL
Date: 5/1/98 3:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AsaBolverk
Message-id: <199805011016...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

Someone recently posted that the pagan boards were open to all so the would
post on the Norse folders whenever they wanted. Simply ignor outsiders who are
just posting to cause trouble, especially those who seem to single out one
member to attack. Aol doesn't seem to care about tose violations of
individuals some groups, but will mess with the Norse. This has been proven in
the past, so be wary of your own postings. Also, contrary to
statements made in some folders, this type individual has a history several
screen names so you are never sure of who you are responding to. TOSEMAIL1
violations of the rules, (even the boaderline cases) even though some seem to
have immunity to the reporting. If no one breaks the rules, they shouldn't
have anything to complain about, nor problems in OUR folders,..... right? And
anyone taking this as an attack, must have a guilty feelings
somewhere in their sorded past.

*************************************************
Fear not the web of a dead spider!

Hail Odin!

Tony

To whom it may concern,

I just read this message posting and furthermore, I have every right to reply
to a message posting and contribute my point of view whether you like it or
not.

I have read many message postings in this folder in which the people posting
the messages were constantly insulting the Wiccan religion. There must be some
subconscious reason why the majority of you have such bitter feelings towards
the Wiccan religion that none of you have truly addressed the issue other than
the fact that many of you see the Wiccan religion as being a religion that had
been fabricated only 30 to 40 years ago. I personally feelthat your bitter
feelings towards the Wiccan religion run alot deeper than any of you will admit
or reveal here on the Pagan Message Board.

There is also that concern in regard to sexual discrimination when making
degrading remarks about the feminist movement as well as feminine based
religions. Do any of you care to explain why you feel such resentment towards
religions that are matriarchal? Those who do read the Pagan Message Boards
would like some kind of explanation on how you and your comrades feel towards
matriarchal type religions so that we call can get a clearer sense of whereall
of you are coming from.

Speaking of outsiders, technically speaking this folder is part of the Pagan
Message Board and that this folder is also open to the public and to those who
have AOL service. When you or any of your comrades post messages of any nature,
including posting insulting messages about another religious path in the Pagan
religion, all of you leave yourselves wide open for all types of replies. This
is not aprivate message board or a private folder.

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

MoonPhaze

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re: human cloning and religion
Date: 5/1/98 2:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaize
Message-id: <199805012155...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

Look below for your reply:
Subject: Re: human cloning and religion
Date: 5/1/98 1:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Wolf2Celt
Message-id: <199805012034...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

<<I was replying to this subject of my own choosing and that the Germans were
the first to do experiments on human beings and I added the links to the
webpage to prove that fact whether you like it or not.>>

I hate to spoil your fun, Moonie, but the Germans weren't the FIRST to
experiments on human beings. There are reports of "scientists" and "doctors"
doing corpses for centuries before it was stopped at the turn of THIS century,
there were experiments on "deformed" or "mental retarded" people by scientists
all over in Europe and Asia. It probably started in anicent Rome, when they
experimented on persons after "mysterious" deaths. Let usnot
forget there was human torture by some tribes in South America and Africa and
Asia. Beside, don't forget the U.S.A's hand in it, the project where they
injected black men with syphilla in late 40's and 50's, and not telling
military seamen about radiation when they exploded nuclear bombs at Bikinis,
when they were there to inspect the results afterward(as in finding how many
animals survived). Beside..... we'd not be surprised if there were
actually experiments on accursed prisoners/witches during the Inquistion, after
all there were a high number of doctors at that time. So Everywhere you look,
every country has its secrets and its guilts. It's VERY low of you to imply
that being Norse, the person should carry the guilt of being a German, who
wasn't even THERE at the years of the Nazi. No one is perfect, and the son
shouldn't carry the sins of his father.

And.....what you had said, it is VERY TOSable.

Merry Part.

Wolfers

I had just read your message posting and since you have mentioned that there
were other civilizations that performed experiments on human beings even before
the Germans did, I would suggest that you include the links to those websites
in your posting so that other folks can read the information. Since you made
those statements publicly, I would suggest that you include the links in your
message postingthe next time.

Thank you

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

Mo

[MOONPHAlZE]

Subject: Re: OPEN TO ALL

Date: 5/2/98 5:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaize
Message-id: <199805021203...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

Ahem... Moon Phaize,

[dusting the chip off of your shoulder]

>>>>>First of all I don't see why some people's dislike of Wicca is a slight
against you.
I like to think that you are atypical of Wiccans (most of the Wiccans I know
are
kind people and generally respectful of others). [Are you a Third Degree High
Priestess btw? Just curious].<<<<<
Yes, I am atypical and don't need to fit into a mold, but that certainly
doesn't make me disrespectful in any manner, however, I do see these message
postings as being disrespectful:

Frey Re: Frey

Norse Fellowship Conspiracy theory

Moonphaize Wants Me Bad Re: Conspiracy theory

What does being a third degree have to do with replying to messages in this
folder? It seems as though you are more focused on degrees and credentials
rather than the content of a message posting.

>>>>> I may have serious theological problems with the Muslim Koran, but I am
not going to blame Mohammed Muslim on the street for that or judge him solely
on the basis of his religion. Asatru stresses that we judge people on their
merits (check out the Havamal, its a good idea to read up and educate yourself
before bashing a faith).<<<<<

Talking about bashing a faith, your kin has recently posted messages here in
this folder that clearly bash a faith. Just click on the links just above you
paragraph. For a group of folks who don't want to be bashed, it is quite
obvious that that is what you and your kin are doing. You and your kin are
getting defensive because I read the messages and posted my replies to them.

>>>>> It is really rude to go trolling the way you are and I would feel the
same way if this was a message board about copiers then one about religion.
Please remember that one catches more flies with honey then with self
aggrandizing mental masturbation.<<<<<

This above statement is a very vulgar statement, it seems to me that all you
think about is vulgarity and coming from somebody who is still a child. When I
was your age I had the responsibility of running a house and didn't have the
luxury of having a computer much less on line service and antagonizing others
on line.

>>>>>I agree people should be respectful of other people's religions and that
being a member of a minority religion such as Asatru or Wicca should further
demonstrate our need for unity. But as you touted, free speech will prevail.
In all fairness, how many "1600 year old" wiccan shadow books could really
stand up to
archaeological and historical scrutiny? I'd venture to guess, not many. We
Asatruar do not claim an unbroken line millenia old and freely admit we are
practicing a 20th century resurgance of the old ways.<<<<<

Who said anything about Wicca being 1600 years old? As I recall, Gerald B.
Gardner was the founder of Wicca which was during the 1950s. I suppose that you
have not even read so much as one chapter of the few books that he has written.

>>>>>On your ignorant abuse of feminism and missing why the movement exists and
complete misunderstanding about both the essence and the lore of Asatru: ever
hear of a tribe of Goddesses and Gods Called The Vanir , a nice group of ladies
called the Disir, and the all powerful Norns (three sisters)? <<<<<
You are the one who is ignorant, who don't you click on the link:
Conspiracy theory to me you are still a child. Nobody is posting anything
offensive about Asatru/Norse Paganism in any other folders here on the Pagan
Message Board and that includes me. There is some contradiction here in your
statement.
>>>>> Ever read the Snorre Edda about how the Goddesses and Gods were of equal
power? Tacitus (a Roman Historian) remarks on the power of women in the
Germanic
Tribes, and the Medieval Sagas of Iceland continue to back that up.<<<<<

I was going to ask you the same question, have you read any books on Wicca or
any other religious path???????
>>>>>If you are planning on crying "patriarchy", cry to somewhere that could
use it like
Wall Street or Hasidm.I resent your 1970's separatist feminist CRAP and your
ignorant insistence that Asatru is a patriarchal faith.<<<<<
Why don't you read this link again, it is not the Asatru/Norse path that is
patriarchal it is people like you who post messages that are sexist: Conspiracy
theory

>>>>> Save your "oppressed womb-in" whining for the next Andrea
Dworkyn/Catherine Mc Kinnon book signing. Read up a little bit before making
these ugly accusations. I could sit and give you hundreds of examples on why
women are powerful both historically and in modern day Asatru (and the Asatru
org I belong to is headed by
a woman and has several female officers and godhar, there are several women in
power in modern Asatru) but its obvious you were sent by the trolls.<<<<<

As I have mentioned, you are still very much like a child and nobody ordered me
to post here in this folder, I am posting here on my own accord. And talking
about Trolls, they are also part of an ancient Pagan custom. Look up Trolls on
the World Wide Web. They go way back in history.

>>>>>(And If I remember your posts correctly on the Blessed Be in DC folder
before the demonstration, its not just the Asatru boards they sent you to -
that unity schtick of yours just does not come across as sincere).<<<<<

That "Blessed Be" was a piece of art work that I have created and I suggest
that you look at yourself before you make any negative comments on my "Blessed
Be" design, etc.

>>>>>The funniest part about your post is that it comes just one day after the
ULTIMATE feminist holiday in Asatru, Walpurgisnact, a celebration of the
feminine mysteries and magic, sacred to the War Goddess Freya and the death
Goddess Hel.<<<<<
That message posting what ever you are referring to must have been several
months ago and that I don't go back and read all of the folders. So what are
you referring to and why don't you e mail me that message posting so that I
know that you are talking about.

>>>>>Sometimes asking polite questions and doing homework can strengthen an
attack.<<<<<

Your message posting was impolite and furthermore there is alot more than all
the books that you can read on a religion, not that all of the books that you
read are totally accurate, there are always different versions. I personally
like stories told by bards better as they have alot more flavor.

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

MoonPhaze

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re: Feminist religions, matriarchal, etc.
Date: 5/2/98 5:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaize
Message-id: <199805021215...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

Germanic tribes, that worshipped the norse gods, respected their women very
highly. Here's some examples to illustrate;

Although the classic idea of the Lady or princess of the Drighten pouring
mead into the horns of heros and guests is true, the idea isn't exactly as you
may think. Actually, the Lady CHOSE HERSELF whom she would serve mead to. It
was a great honor for her to do this. Meaning the guest would be highly
honored that the drighten's wife thought of him as important or honorable
enough. The Lady of the hall was ALWAYS included in all the major
decisions. And her opinion was asked of regardless of the decision to be
made.(war, peace, planting, diplomacy, etc.) The Mistress of the Hall was in
charge of all the goings on the drighten's land and owned a section of it
herself personally. She was also in complete charge of everything while he was
away raiding or at war. And no one challenged her orders, not even the
drighten's highest general or right-hand-man.
When they were married, the future wife's father gave a dowlery as did the
husband to be. In the event of a break-up (of which the wife could divorce at
anytime by merely stating her desire to leave and state her reason why in
public..and it was automatically done, could not be contested) the Ex-wife
would retain and keep all of the dowlery given by BOTH her family and the
dowlery given by her former husband. (In addition to her recieving a
small section of land also.)
We hold to the traditions of our ancestors and the nordic ways. That would
include respect for women. The sub-serviant attitude towards women did not
occur until the induction and coming of Christianity. Period.
The reasons why many do not like wiccans....I've told you before personally
and no-holds-barred frankly through the time you IMed me and asked.
Sometimes there are no boogymen under your bed, just your shoes and a couple
of dust-bunnies.

In Troth,
--Mike
P.S. all of the information concerning how the germanic tribes treated their
women etc,can be easily found in any book by H.R. Ellis-Davidson

I read your message posting and was very impressed with the content of your
posting, however, when I do read a message posting be another person, they do
reflect who they are virtually by the type of message that they post, etc., and
that I thoroughly enjoyed reading your message posting because not only did you
give me a background history on your path but also, you didn't post anything
offensive as I saw in this link I hate to say:

Conspiracy theory

I would go as far as to say that your message postings are more informative
than many of the other message postings that I have read in this folder.

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

MoonPhaze

))O(( ))O(( ))O(( ))O((

**************************************************************************
************************

Subject: Re: Conspiracy theory
Date: 4/30/98 6:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Ingvi
Message-id: <199805010123...@ladder01.news.aol.com>

Phazie,looks like your back to start trouble,i'm sorry but your not offering
anything to these boards but stuff to start flames,I think you should truely
stay away with your sick bigiotry accusing people or a group of people of
conspiroring to get you or the jewish people,you wrote>>>that's fine, there is

nothing wrong with posting messages pertaining to material that you have read
so long as it is just
that.

WHO ARE YOU TO TELL PEOPLE TO CONTAIN THEIR POSTS ACCORDING TO YOUR WAY OR NO
WAY.
You must stop this nonsense immediatly,take your prozack and get a life,that
has nothing to do with the good people who post hereIN THE ASATRU NORSE
FOLDERS,and stop trying to censer people cause of your paranioa.

**************************************************************************
************************

[Shaksway]

yawn...........................
Thunorwine/Shakudion
A.A.A.R.F.

[Agnarb]

Put your best foot forward because everything you say will be copied and saved
by a lunar fungus that is spreading........
Gives new meaning to "HAIL DAY, HAIL THE SONS OF DAY"

[Heimdall]

 

MOONPHAlZE wrote:

To whom it may concern,

I have enclosed several message postings from the Asatru/Norse Paganism folder

for you to read so that you would have a better idea of the activity on the
Pagan Message Board.
 

Why?  If we cared we'd go 'there' and see it for ourselves.
 

Fare far away
 

Heimdall
AOR/AFA/Himinbjorg Kindred

[AsaBolverk]

>From: moonp...@aol.com (MOONPHAlZE)

>Subj: Re:Loaki/ATOYA

Atoya is Moonphaize, or at least was, along with a dozen other names.

[Vithar Herren]

> MOONPHAlZE wrote:
>
>> To whom it may concern,
>>

>> I have enclosed several message postings from the Asatru/Norse
>> Paganism folder
>> for you to read so that you would have a better idea of the activity
>> on the
>> Pagan Message Board.
>>
>

Date: 12/13/97 2:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: MoonPhaze
Message-id: <board-m-folder-0020473b-...@aol.com>

I went to the website and looked up ASATRU and saw this information
listed
below. They seem to single out those whose ancestry is Jewish and
calling them
racists. There are the twelve tribes in Judaism and they range from
caucassion,
negro, asian, to hispanic as far as their race is concerned. Also the
Arabs and
the Jews are also related through Abraham.

I will also note that it was Adolf Hitler who wanted to have a pure
Aryan race
with blond hair and blue eyes and anybody not fitting into that category
was
captured by the German soldiers and sent off to concentration camps and
many
were killed.

Go to Israel and you will see some witches, pagans, and wiccans of
Jewish
ancestry.

MoonPhaze

MoonPhaze, yours are the only racist comments on the entire message
board. You are the racist. You are the one bringing up racism and
Hitler. And you are the one clearly spewing lies. YOU are a bigot and
a racist. You are bigotted against Asatruar at the very least, and from
your material above, I'd say you're bigotted against Jews also. You
filthy anti-semite you! I'm tired of your racist and anti-semite
comments. Why don't you stop picking on the Jews?

Are you off your medication again? Why would you so openly spew racism
all over the internet... Don't you know that all people are equal in
YAHWEH's eyes. Why don't you go to Church and talk to your preacher
about this bigotry you have... Then maybe he intercede for you with
YAHWEH and ask him to save you from the sin of racism. Don't be a
Jew-hater Moonphaze. Open your eyes to the love of YHWH for you.

--
bite my ass,

[MOONPHAlZE]

I doesn't matter what screen name I posted messages under, I still was followed
from folder to folder by AIfatherII aka Vidhar. I posted under different screen
names hoping to get rid of this person. My problems with this person began long
before I got involved with any of the message postings in the Asatru/Norse
Paganism folder. This person followed other people from folder to folder and
some he had intimidated so that they were even afraid to post to the Pagan
Message Board which is really very sad because they had just as much right to
post messages as he did and that they would also have alot to offer as well.

MOONPHAlZE

Subject: Only But The Truth
Date: 10/19/97 3:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: RedKiev
Message-id: <board-m-folder-00390646-...@aol.com>

This folder is created for the purpose of making everybody aware in the
Wiccan/Pagan community of how they treat one another in the mundane, magickal,
and online world. None of these planes are separated.

There has been so much back stabbing and the issue really needs to be address
here on the internet. When somebody sends another person an e mail containing
information that would be considered very personal such as incest, rape, being
victimized, coven and or circle involvement, dissagreements with other people
in the Wiccan/Pagan community, the e mail gets circulated to others who also
have on line accounts besides just AOL. That is considered a breach of trust
and those type of e mails should never be
circulated without the person's permission.

Also on line, if there is a dissagreement between two people, usually the other
person wants to keep it going.............most likely for months if not years.
And if there is a dissagreement, both people should settle it in a more
discrete manner rather than posting them for months on the message board which
only perpetuates the arguement.

There is this pettiness about fighting about somebody's tradition and training
in the craft here on the message boards instead of them being settled via e
mail or IM's or better yet in person if the two people live in close
geographically. Then there is the pettiness over how much or how little
training a person has in the craft........and needless to say, it is very
difficult to find a reputable teacher in the craft who is interested in "only"
teaching the craft without involving themselves in the
student's personal life, etc.

One damaging factor is the spreading lists of people to others on line with the
intension of causing emotional and psychological damage as a result of the list
mailings. It seems as though when a person speaks the truth, others will
(without a doubt) do what ever they can to spread slander about them on line.

Also many of the people in the Wiccan/Pagan community are lacking maturity in
the craft in that they need to spend their time spreading malicious gossip
either, in person, by snail mail, by phone, or on line. They have not learned
to better themselves by doing more reading in the craft, working on projects in
their community, etc.

The Pagan chat rooms are meant for discussion on the craft and not on other
topics such as demon worship, Christianity, or any other religion. They really
should have more discussions on the the practice of the craft. The saddest
issue is that other people get into the chat room for the sole purpose of
creating a chat log so that the unsuspecting person with whom they want to
spread gossip about has their messages recorded and then the chat log gets e
mailed to others without the person being aware that
it is happening.

There should be no reason why a folder with meaningful intensions should be
shredded up by people who post messages that have nothing to do with the
purpose of the folder and all of the other nonsence message postings that get
posted.

Another thing that is very interesting:
Many Wiccans and Pagans want to keep such a low profile to the point that they
don't want other people to know that they practice the craft in any way or
fashion, and yet they scream their heads off that other's don't accept them.
They want to pretend to others that they don't practice the craft and I don't
see that happening with other religions. In fact they are very open for the
most part about what they believe in virtually by the way they dress, the
jewlery that they wear, etc. Why do people in the
Wiccan/Pagan community have to hide their penticles, crystals, dieties, etc.?
That really doesn't make any sence at all. What do we have to be ashamed of?
What are we trying to hide?

When the Born Again Christians come around, you people just run and
hide..............

This is just something for all of us to think about

BB

***RedKiev***

**************************************************************************
***************************

Subject: Re:Only But The Truth
Date: 10/19/97 6:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AIfatherII
Message-id: <board-m-folder-00390646-...@aol.com>

RedKiev:>>>This folder is created for the purpose of making everybody aware in
the Wiccan/Pagan community of how they treat one another in the mundane,
magickal, and online world. None of these planes are separated.<<<

Heilsa Kiev!
Great folder! You know, there are a group of individuals online called The
Harassers of Doom. These individuals specialize in creating new account names
and harassing people whom they disagree with.
These individuals should realize that the so called planes are just
illusions...Anyone can be reached if one has the know how and knowledge. I do.
Vidar Odinsson
Priest of Odin
:RtR:

[Runewight]

>From: moonp...@aol.com (MOONPHAlZE)
>Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 18:27 EDT
>Message-id: <199805112227...@ladder03.news.aol.com>

I find all of your writngs to be ponderous to no good end, replete with
gibberish, tiresome boring tripe and moreover
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzz

[vid...@hotmail.com]

In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980510...@eskimo.com>,

Susan Granquist <valk...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>Mr. Gundarsson, myself and others have been
>ridiculed by the same person,
>and we have not resorted to mass-mailings
> and accusations to all and
>sundry. We simply address any issues
> he raises and let the fact that he
>has to ridicule in order to express
>his views speak for itself.

Heilsa Susan!
May can I join the club?
I need ridicule...=) I certainly don't get enough
these days since I'm not online much. Best wishes
to the gang on your list!

Wassial and Health!

Vidar Odinsson
Priest of Odin
:RtR:

"Odin isn't nazi or christian...and neither am I!"
Reyn til Runa!

[Susan Granquist]

On 10 May 1998, No one you know wrote:

> Vithar Herren <vit...@flash.net> wrote:
> > MOONPHAlZE pipes in:
> > the
> > > folks not only have made claims that the Asatru/Norse Paganism was ancient
>
> > WHAT!!???? Somebody said Asatru was ancient??? How dare they!!! I
> > mean, it CAN'T be older than 40,000 years or more recent than 3000 years
> > old so who gets off saying it's ancient??? ;-)
>
> Asatru as we know it today goes back no further than 1970 or so and can
> probably trace it's roots only back to the Volkisch/Romantic movement of
> 19th/early 20th century Germany. No further.

Asatru goes back a good deal farther then that. Some forms of Odinism, on
the other hand, shows some very distinct roots in the Volkishc/Romantic
movement and the material put forward about Wotanism which is presented in
monotheistic form, and highly catholic. I have a small sixth grade
grammar book in Icelandic that discusses the godhar and "old ways" as part
of the history of that land. Odinism, or at least some rather highly
placed Odinists, reject the necessity of referring to the older material
as it is "tainted with Christianity."

> I really doubt that, other than the Blot and Sumbel, what passes for Norse
> religion today really has much resemblance to what they actually believed
> and did.

The blot and sumble are still important rites in the religion, and there
are plenty of others outlined in the lore and historical sources. We
believe in the same deities and spirits. For some of us the beliefs came
before finding anyone else who shared them..but that were very similar
even when they are compared to others who were likewise isolated. Small
seemingly insignificant details like how one uses a staff in a seidh
session..when no one in the "published" Asatru/Heathen community has ever
mentioned it for instance. Old Norse terms that are spelled out in
dreams..in runes, and which are later found to be real words, to have
included a word play and pun that works only because the runes spelling it
are old Danish.

The toast and ceremonies held by Scandinavian families for guests when
entertaining are the old ways held fast in family and in "custom." The
dairy farmer who still smears a pat of butter on the wall of the dairy is
not so far removed from the one ten centuries ago who did the same thing.

> For one thing, the people back then had _lives_. They didn't spend 24/7
> thinking about the gods, or about <snicker> "the endangered white race and
> why we must save it" (tm). Seasonal festivals were observed, but in

some probably did spend 24/7 thinking about them..while others were
probably largely agnostic..but as an ethnic religion the things that wove
up those lives are as important as the belief in the gods. Understanding
the expression of faith that shaped the laws and customs, looking to the
crafts and work that informed the metaphors of the literature..the oral
traditions that were kept alive sitting together and singing and listening
to tales that had been told many times over.. That's where the religion
is.

> between those festivals how many people really spent their spare time
> obssessed with doing runic magic, race (tm), or warrior values (tm)?
> Probably very few. Most had farms to attend to.

Probably not many were focused on runic magic, or warrior values..but
they did very much care about custom and community. To think ill of
someone was to curse and to curse meant a liability that had to be
discharged. There was no grace and forgiveness in that world view, every
action shaped the orlog. The past was not wiped away in the living waters
of a gospel of a divine king, it *was* the water and the flow of events
and men's actions. The farmer was no less spiritual, in fact more so as
they live close to that land and the spirits that dwell in it.

> For another thing, much of Asatru appears to reflect the worst caricature
> possible of the Viking stereotype that was popularized in 1950's and
> 1960's pulp novels, films, and oversized childrens' books of Norse
> mythology.

Perhaps much of it does...largely because those are the popular myths..and
they make "news." The quiet, honest and moderate members of the religion
go unnoticed, or unremarked. They are not out to convert the world, nor
concerned about the future of the "white" race. We don't have to dress up
like "vikings" to worship.. often a blot is a gathering in a quiet grove
and done in sober silence, the mead poured out gratefully to those who
went before and who are by our way of thinking part of "all that is,"
"was" ad "will be."

[AYoung8972]

>> Asatru as we know it today goes back no further than 1970 or so and can
>> probably trace it's roots only back to the Volkisch/Romantic movement of
>> 19th/early 20th century Germany. No further.

I do not know how far back the rites I practise go back to. Its not important.
I follow the Gods and I know they are real and are part of me and my families
life. They know how true we are in our hearts. I believe this is enough for
them. The rituals are only tools inwhich we convay or feelings and thoughts and
needs to our Gods. I know they answer and they walk in my life as they do with
all those who are true to our faith. I am American by birth, a Asatru by troth.
I welcome all of all nations to my heart. We are all Asatru. IT IS ENOUGH.

Jack Young
972-496-6855

[Eule]

On 5/13/98 17:03, in message
<199805132303...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, AYoung8972
<ayoun...@aol.com> wrote:

Wassail Jack

It is enough for me too. All else, while interesting, is insignificant.

Be Proud, Be Brave, Be True

Eule

[Hnikar]

Susan wrote, "Odinism, or at least some rather highly placed Odinists,

reject the necessity of referring to the older material as it is

'tainted with Christianity'". This is a more plausible statement than
your earlier claims that there are those among us who believe the Eddas
ought to be "discarded", simply because of the ambiguity in the phrase
"necessity of referring to". Without knowing what is meant in this case
by "necessity" or "referring to"- that is, a specific context- it floats
there.

I wouldn't think that it means some "highly placed Odinists" have
claimed, for instance, that the Eddas are without value as a means of
understanding the faith. I certainly know of none. What criticism I
have seen of possible Christian influence in the Eddas has been very
balanced, and has come from those who have referred to the Eddas
extensively.

I don't think "necessity" means that they are to be referred to in a
Biblical sense either. Even those who have been called
"fundamentalists" reject such a notion.

Everything I have heard falls well within these two extremes. All value
the Eddas, but simply disagree on the precise value to the living faith.
All refer to them, and there is a certain necessity to refer to them in
some context at least. They are essential texts. I don't think,
however, that anyone believes it is necessary to refer to them to solve
all questions of the modern faith- we just aren't that fossilized or
narrow in our focus, I hope- and they give only a partial glimpse at the
whole of the ancestral faith, as anyone who would try to construct a
revived worship of the sea gods from its pages can attest. Other
sources, historical and archaeological data, and the living faith itself
must be used to fill in or give clearer meaning to the Eddas.

It would be helpful to know who you refer to here, and when you
mentioned that someone has advocated the discarding of the Eddas.
Without mentioning names you give the individuals no opportunity to
clarify their actual position and the assertion stands because none
recognize themselves in it.

Whose position are you attempting to relate, Susan? Are you trying to
do so fairly and accurately?

FFF

Hnikar
AOR/AFA/Raven Kindred AA (Honorary)

Hnikar's Folkish Asatru Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5056/ (including Odin's Nation
News)

[AsaBolverk]

>Susan wrote, "Odinism, or at least some rather highly placed Odinists,
>reject the necessity of referring to the older material as it is
>'tainted with Christianity'".

Well, someone confused the hel out of me. Most Odinist that I know, and those
who call themselves Asatru don't really consider many,... if anyone "highly
placed" (no "Asa-Pope" or Pope of Odin). Don't get me wrong now, I am only
asking, but is the sudden use of the term "Odinist" in this board instead of
"Asatru" another division such as "Universalist" and "Folkish"?

Since I don't FULLY agree with most who call themselves "Asatru", I do, (and
have for MANY years) call myself an Odinist, and My Relgion Odinism. I was
under the impression though, that the majority of the Asatru used the term
Odinist ALMOST as a synonym for Asatru, and inteld it to include the Vanatru.

Children!....douse the flames before they start however and allow the ADULTS to
just give me facts and comments.

[Jim Bowery]

A problem with theocrats that infect all folk traditions is their tendency
toward over-reliance on 'the word' and under-reliance on 'the folk'.

The reason they do this should be obvious, as they are not usually
serving the folk at all -- but rather some foreign urban authority with
its literati.
--
The promotion of politics exterminates apolitical genes in the population.
The promotion of frontiers gives apolitical genes a route to survival.
Change the tools and you change the rules.

[S. M. Hewitt]

On 16 May 1998 19:31:20 GMT, asabo...@aol.com (AsaBolverk) wrote:

...interesting new direction...let's see where this one leads....

>>Susan wrote, "Odinism, or at least some rather highly placed Odinists,
>>reject the necessity of referring to the older material as it is
>>'tainted with Christianity'".
>

...I believe that she is referring to "Odinists" in the context of
Odinic Rite/OR Vinland, which is a folkish construction, and thus has
drawn much of her comment of late. Still, you'd have to ask her...she
is fully capable of answering this for herself.

...as to the Eddas...I'll stay out of any controversy. Let those who
like taking positions do that. I consider the Eddas...especially the
Elder...as a legacy, but not an "untouched" one. We have the
Eddas...and the sagas, the snippets of history, and also the work of
later scholars and goði and gyðia to help us in our search for the
Gods. We need them all. We shouldn't trust another's views on the
subject...we each of us are obliged to read and interpret them
ourselves, discuss them, and make our own decisions.

Face it, guys...our grandfathers and grandmothers didn't leave much of
a blueprint, or at least little really explicit has survived. We have
to build with what we're left.

...as to "highly placed Odinists"...well...that's a generalization,
isn't it....

>Well, someone confused the hel out of me. Most Odinist that I know, and those
>who call themselves Asatru don't really consider many,... if anyone "highly
>placed" (no "Asa-Pope" or Pope of Odin). Don't get me wrong now, I am only
>asking, but is the sudden use of the term "Odinist" in this board instead of
>"Asatru" another division such as "Universalist" and "Folkish"?
>

...well...I profess Ásatrú...which, I guess, makes me an
ásatrúar...and I am an Óðinnist, inasmuch as I proudly claim Old Har
as my guide. I honor the folkish, but do not count myself among their
number. I honor and place myself closer to those called
"universalist"...although Ásatrú is hardly a "universal" religious
legacy.

As to the use of the term suddenly appearing, some would say that
they're interchangable, and there's my theory of Susan's usage
mentioned above.

This throws in a new wrinkle...we've got folkish ásatrúar, someone
used the term "generic" ásatrúar, someone else piped in with tribal
ásatrúar (which I like, but don't use), a few have stood up and
declared themselves "just plain ásatrúar"...can't tell the players
without a program.

Me...I'm a folkiversalist ásatrúar of the Óðinnic tribe...with
oakleaves, swords and diamonds....

>Since I don't FULLY agree with most who call themselves "Asatru", I do, (and
>have for MANY years) call myself an Odinist, and My Relgion Odinism. I was
>under the impression though, that the majority of the Asatru used the term
>Odinist ALMOST as a synonym for Asatru, and inteld it to include the Vanatru.
>

...do any of us agree? We all come from different places to roughly
the same place religiously, but arrive with different things being
important to us. Some value Ásatrú as a cultural expression...some as
a birthright...some as a mystical construction...and some aren't sure
yet...and each view has it's merits.

>Children!....douse the flames before they start however and allow the ADULTS to
>just give me facts and comments.
>

...bingo! Nail on the head, brother!

>
>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>
>Fear Not the Web of a Dead Spider!
>
>Hail Odin!
>Tony

...as to an Ásatrú Pope...I nominate Paal-Eirik Filsunnu...not because
of any merit on his part...but, as he'd then be a Pope, and as the
office of Pope (office?) is a catholic construction, we could take it
one step further and require him to remain celibate.

That'd fix his wagon!

-- Steve

Gleefully imagining a celibate Paal-Eirik...what's the word for "ain't
gettin' any" in that language of yours, bud....

[S. M. Hewitt]

On Sat, 16 May 1998 20:49:54 GMT, jabo...@netcom.com (Jim Bowery)
wrote:

>A problem with theocrats that infect all folk traditions is their tendency
>toward over-reliance on 'the word' and under-reliance on 'the folk'.
>

...Great Sleipnir´s Nosebag! I'm agreeing with Bowery again! Where
will this stop!!

Many scholars, theologians, priests and poobahs of many faiths...and
not just folk religions...rely too heavily on "holy writ"...or
sanctify common sense and take it out of the hands of the common
Joe...while discounting the plain good sense and decency and
understanding of the people the faith is serving.... This stems,
probably, from the misbelief that the Old Joe Sixpack couldn't have
thought up something as profound as Eddic poetry or the cosmology of
the Nine Worlds. It had to be, I reckon that they surmise, divinely
revealed.

Win the religion back: re-read the Hávamál, stanza by stanza...apply
it to your life and life experience. Read a saga and (I challenge
you) try not to see yourself, your relations, people in this newsgroup
and others you know in it.

>The reason they do this should be obvious, as they are not usually
>serving the folk at all -- but rather some foreign urban authority with
>its literati.
>--

...I'm not sure if it's a "foreign" or "urban" authority, but some
seem to think that you have to have some qualifications -- or at least
a learner's permit -- to discuss the faith.

...there...I've disagreed with Jim...I feel more myself again....

But, then...

When a stupid man comes into company
he'd better be silent;
on one will notice that he knows nothing
unless he talks a lot.

A clever man will ask questions
and answer as well;
no one can hope to keep anything concealed
once it is heard in a hall.

...and, after running my mouth among those more learned than I, I
ruefully read this and mope.

...I guess that it isn't position or qualification...but commitment
and depth of understanding and facility of expression that carries
arguments...literati, foreign, or no....

>The promotion of politics exterminates apolitical genes in the population.
> The promotion of frontiers gives apolitical genes a route to survival.
> Change the tools and you change the rules.

...you´re getting interesting, Jim. If I wasn't still in your "kill
file", you'd be as surprised as I am (if you gave a shit what I think)
that I'm agreeing with ya.

Jim advocates racism, which I take to be "the notion that one's own
ethnic stock is superior"...and discrimination, which I can be taken
to mean "act on the basis of a prejudice", but can also mean "to make
a clear distinction; distinguish; differentiate"...I'd prefer to think
that the latter of the two definitions fits Jim.

Jim's posts are never moderate, and he caters to no man...so far as
I've seen. I disagree with him from the depths of my heart as regards
race and ethnicity...I see people differently.

Jim, if I may continue to speak about him, is proof that every man has
something to contribute, and therefore no man's opinion should be
dismissed.

I disagree with Mr. Bowery...and raise a horn to him. Heilsa!

-- Steve

[Hnikar]

I've found, as you have, Tony, that most use the terms Odinist and
Asatruar synonymously. The title of the International Asatru/Odinic
Alliance is testimony to this. The Asatru Free Assembly published,
many years ago, "An Odinist Anthology" as well. I certainly use them
so. Each encompasses much more than simple etymology might indicate,
with self-proclaimed Odinists honoring not only Odin, and with Asatruar
honoring not only the Aesir.

There have in the past, as I recall, been some who drew distinctions
between the terms, as Kaplan noted I think, but on the whole I have to
agree with you.

[Paal-Eirik Filssunu]

S. M. Hewitt wrote:

> ...as to an Ásatrú Pope...I nominate Paal-Eirik Filsunnu...not because
> of any merit on his part...but, as he'd then be a Pope, and as the
> office of Pope (office?) is a catholic construction, we could take it
> one step further and require him to remain celibate.

***HA! 'Priestly Functions'<g> require a generous spreading of the Faith
unto all those 'unchurched' womenfolk out there....Now there's a
'Mission' for this Papist :))***

>
> That'd fix his wagon!
>
> -- Steve
>
> Gleefully imagining a celibate Paal-Eirik...what's the word for "ain't
> gettin' any" in that language of yours, bud....

***I hereby nominate myself as Pope Bud I...I'm sure the Vatican will
just love it. Now, kneel....***

Paal-Eirik Filssunu
AEF/ER

http://members.tripod.com/~aernfolk/index-2.html

[lae...@my-dejanews.com]

In article <355dfc47...@news.demon.co.uk>,
em...@email.co.uk (S. M. Hewitt) wrote:

> ...Great Sleipnir愀 Nosebag! I'm agreeing with Bowery again! Where
> will this stop!!

Now *that*'s funny!

Laeknir Eirarson

[Paal-Eirik Filssunu]

S. M. Hewitt wrote:
[canonically disavowed]

> >***I hereby nominate myself as Pope Bud I...I'm sure the Vatican will
> >just love it. Now, kneel....***
> >
> >Paal-Eirik Filssunu
> >AEF/ER
>

> OOOOOOO, grand poobah! In nomine patri, et fili, et congresse
> horizontali, amen!
>
> -- Steve
> Genuflecting to the new High Pontiff

**Now Steve- is that being 'high' as on something 'illegal'....? <g>**

[Join the World Conclave of Pontificators Today!]

[S. M. Hewitt]

On Sun, 17 May 1998 17:08:58 -0700, Paal-Eirik Filssunu
<erh...@gte.net> wrote:

>S. M. Hewitt wrote:
>
>> ...as to an Ásatrú Pope...I nominate Paal-Eirik Filsunnu...not because
>> of any merit on his part...but, as he'd then be a Pope, and as the
>> office of Pope (office?) is a catholic construction, we could take it
>> one step further and require him to remain celibate.
>
>***HA! 'Priestly Functions'<g> require a generous spreading of the Faith
>unto all those 'unchurched' womenfolk out there....Now there's a
>'Mission' for this Papist :))***

...generous "spreading" of the faith...for shame, sir....

>>
>> That'd fix his wagon!
>>
>> -- Steve
>>
>> Gleefully imagining a celibate Paal-Eirik...what's the word for "ain't
>> gettin' any" in that language of yours, bud....
>

[Heimdall]

AsaBolverk wrote:

> >Susan wrote, "Odinism, or at least some rather highly placed Odinists,
> >reject the necessity of referring to the older material as it is
> >'tainted with Christianity'".
>

> Well, someone confused the hel out of me. Most Odinist that I know, and those
> who call themselves Asatru don't really consider many,... if anyone "highly
> placed" (no "Asa-Pope" or Pope of Odin). Don't get me wrong now, I am only
> asking, but is the sudden use of the term "Odinist" in this board instead of
> "Asatru" another division such as "Universalist" and "Folkish"?
>

> Since I don't FULLY agree with most who call themselves "Asatru", I do, (and
> have for MANY years) call myself an Odinist, and My Relgion Odinism. I was
> under the impression though, that the majority of the Asatru used the term
> Odinist ALMOST as a synonym for Asatru, and inteld it to include the Vanatru.
>

> Children!....douse the flames before they start however and allow the ADULTS to
> just give me facts and comments.
>

> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>
> Fear Not the Web of a Dead Spider!
>
> Hail Odin!
> Tony

When I use the term Odinist I'm not speaking of anything different than what I
consider Asatru to be. Attempts to brand Odinism as somehow a more sinister form
of Asatru are silly. It's more of a personal definition from what I've seen. To
try and place a label on it would be like to looking behind the curtain to see the
difference between Odin, Wotan, Odhinn, etc. Faith in the Gods is Faith in the
Gods by whatever name it's called.

Fare with the Gods

Heimdall
AFA/AOR/Himinbjorg Kindred

[LurchLaVey]

This may seem like an awfully silly question, but, if you discarded the
Eddas... exactly what would you have left to go by???

You rang?
LurchLaVey

[Hnikar]

The point of the original post being, of course, that no one has urged
that the Eddas be discarded, as Susan claimed. Each Asatruar values
them, regardless of the degree of critical assessment.

[ro...@yolo.com]

In article <199805270614...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,

It depends on what religion you follow. If your path is the ancient
Norse creed (Oðinn, Thór, Yggdrasill, and all that), then discarding the
Eddas leaves you with your imagination and an occult shop full of junk
paperbacks based on other people's imaginations. If you're trying to follow
some non-Norse "Germanic" folk religion, then you're left with your
imagination, the occult shop, and a handful of disconnected snippets of
evidence of an indeterminate number of local cults and beliefs over an
indeterminate time and area (see books by H. Ellis Davidson). If you're
trying to reconstruct a hypothetical folk religion based on modern folk
beliefs and practices, then you're left with your imagination, the occult
shop, Grimm, the Golden Bough, and eighty years of scholarship demonstrating
that it can't be done.

I'll take the Eddas.

fmg,
rorik

[S. M. Hewitt]

On Fri, 29 May 1998 01:25:08 GMT, ro...@yolo.com wrote:

>It depends on what religion you follow. If your path is the ancient
>Norse creed (Oðinn, Thór, Yggdrasill, and all that), then discarding the
>Eddas leaves you with your imagination and an occult shop full of junk
>paperbacks based on other people's imaginations. If you're trying to follow
>some non-Norse "Germanic" folk religion, then you're left with your
>imagination, the occult shop, and a handful of disconnected snippets of
>evidence of an indeterminate number of local cults and beliefs over an
>indeterminate time and area (see books by H. Ellis Davidson). If you're
>trying to reconstruct a hypothetical folk religion based on modern folk
>beliefs and practices, then you're left with your imagination, the occult
>shop, Grimm, the Golden Bough, and eighty years of scholarship demonstrating
>that it can't be done.
>
>I'll take the Eddas.
>
>fmg,
>rorik
>

...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing!

The Eddas take a lot of reading...and some of it is hard to grasp.
Look at the many and varied interpretations the Völuspá has been
getting in this NG lately. We can't discard them...we each of us have
to value them in our own way, as we work our way through them.

The good thing is...we can read and interpret and disagree with them.
Try doing that with a christian and a parable!

-- Steve

[Susan Granquist]

On Thu, 28 May 1998, Hnikar wrote:

> The point of the original post being, of course, that no one has urged
> that the Eddas be discarded, as Susan claimed. Each Asatruar values
> them, regardless of the degree of critical assessment.
>
> Hnikar
> AOR/AFA/Raven Kindred AA (Honorary)

The original statements that I replied to were condemning the Eddas as
being "Christian biased." Usually the comment that comes up when
something there doesn't agree with one's cherished beliefs, and which
rarely has any relationship to the actual Christian influences that
scholars have identified.

I have a long standing habit of keeping personal correspondence, as well
as postings to lists and newsgroups. I have several from leaders in the
OR that specifically state that the Eddas are Christian tainted and are
not used. I don't remember who specifically, other than I accepted them
as authoritive as they were from leaders and not individuals speaking only
for themselves. If you would like I will go back through the archives I
have kept for the last five years and see if I can't locate them for you.
As I'm working on a project that the material might be necessary for
anyway it'd probably be a good idea to do so even if you don't want to see
it.

I remember them largely becuase at least one went on to discuss the purity
of Anglo-Saxon literature which is laughable...unless one is buying into
A.R. Mill's fantasy. Anglo-Saxon literature ws the literature of the
converted heathen. When the Norse of that period converted they took up
Anglo-Saxon as the liturgical language. H.R. Loyn in _Vikings in Britain_
makes that particularly clear.

Perhaps if more of the Odinists and Folkish were to display a knowledge of
the Eddas it'd be more convincing. For instance I still find it puzzling
that Mr. McNallen in putting together a viking age ceremony missed the
section about cattle and kinsmen dying or the advice in the Sigdrifumal.

[Hnikar]

At no time has the leadership of the Odinic Rite said the Eddas were not
used, Susan, nor, as you have claimed, that they should be "discarded".
Very perceptive commentary, quite scholarly and in depth, has been made
by people from across the spectrum that one must read any source
critically and not as a Christian reads the Bible or a Moslem reads the
Koran.

I suggest people have a look at the Odinic Rite website to see for
themselves.
http://www.lrbcg.com/heathen/

Susan, you have lied here just as you lied when you say I have
differentiated Folkish Asatru from Asatru. You know that in truth I
have differentiated two different faiths claiming the title of Asatru,
Folkish and universalist, all the while acknowledging the full range of
opinion. I am an Asatruar and have been since the days of the Asatru
Free Assembly, of which I was a member.

I'm tempted to be drawn into your "I'm Asatru, and you're not" game,
because I think Folkish Asatruar have a strong case, but what is the
purpose? I think your need to lie and snipe at the efforts of others
speaks for itself, and I would not wish to unintentionally insult those
Asatruar who disagree with my beliefs honorably and intelligently in the
midst of quarreling with you.

Get a life.

Hnikar
AOR/AFA/Raven Kindred AA (Honorary)

Hnikar's Folkish Asatru Page:

[Hnikar]

I hasten to add to my last post that the wonderful recent Eddic threads
here, analyzing stanza by stanza, were imported from the Odinic Rite
list. This stands in stark constrast to Susan's claims of the OR's
disinterest in the Eddas.

[D B Graphics]

Howdy Susan...

Susan Granquist wrote:

>>The original statements that I replied to were condemning the Eddas as
being "Christian biased." Usually the comment that comes up when
something there doesn't agree with one's cherished beliefs, and which
rarely has any relationship to the actual Christian influences that
scholars have identified.<<

This is not all that true, you are making generalizations here.

As for the lore, I have just as much of a chance to backtrack into
english translations (I only read english) as anyone and I don't
"discard" any of it - I just reserve the right to view any or all of
the lore as "guidelines" or allegory. (I can't see myself taking
the story of the giant suckeling the teet of a cow, or Thor riding
accross the sky in a chariot pulled by goats as literal)

As far as "Christian biased." if comment that comes up and
doesn't agree with my cherished beliefs is silly or just false.

Even Roric would not say that of me, or for that matter S.Hewit
Steelfoot, Vidhar, or Vithar, and I have many items I do not agree
with in ref. to the above folks. (some more than others)

>>I have a long standing habit of keeping personal correspondence,
as well as postings to lists and newsgroups. <<

We all know about the J. Edgar Granquist files or is that the "G" files?
(It would make a great TV show, but a bit too off for even Moulder)

I also save all my e-mail and my own posts but I let some other archives
such as dejanews and others do the rest (trolls blocking Dejanews not
withstanding)

>>I have several from leaders in the OR that specifically state that
the Eddas are Christian tainted and are not used.<<

Funny I have not seen that - I am not part of the OR nor do I agree
with the leadership structure, but I look at them as brothers and
sisters in the faith, In fact it is even more strange in that some
issues about the Lore posted here started first on the OR list!

>>If you would like I will go back through the archives I
have kept for the last five years and see if I can't locate them for
you. <<

How many Gigs of info are you holding onto?

>>As I'm working on a project that the material might be necessary for
anyway it'd probably be a good idea to do so even if you don't want to
see
it. <<

Who could it be for?

>>Perhaps if more of the Odinists and Folkish were to display a knowledge
of the Eddas it'd be more convincing.<<

If I remember right you never wanted to work me "up" on the lore...
for the most part that ends up as "who has the best resourse library"
rather than a real conversation on the faith.

>>For instance I still find it puzzling that Mr. McNallen in putting
together a viking age ceremony missed the section about cattle
and kinsmen dying or the advice in the Sigdrifumal.<<

I dont think you find anything "puzzling" about McNallen - I think
you are out to nitpick him and his work in a sad try at hurting the
AFA or Steve as a person - what gives with this?

To Wotan and your health

Doug

[Vithar Herren]

D B Graphics wrote:

> Susan Granquist wrote:
>
>
> >>I have several from leaders in the OR that specifically state that
> the Eddas are Christian tainted and are not used.<<
>
> Funny I have not seen that - I am not part of the OR nor do I agree
> with the leadership structure, but I look at them as brothers and
> sisters in the faith, In fact it is even more strange in that some
> issues about the Lore posted here started first on the OR list!
>
> >>If you would like I will go back through the archives I
> have kept for the last five years and see if I can't locate them for
> you. <<
>

Actually, as I don't know alot about the OR, I'd like to see those, if they
were public messages to start with, or you can get the okay to post them, I'd
be interested to hear their views on the Eddas... If for no other reason,
than so I'll know what they think.

--
Thanks,
Vithar
http://www.flash.net/~vithar
Irmin's Way Asatru Kindred in Houston, TX

[Hnikar]

I'm guessing that Susan is distorting the views expressed by Wulgaest in
the thread "Eddic Fundamentalism" some months back. The thread is well
worth a re-read on Dejanews as the commentary was stimulating and astute
from many posters. Essentially Wulfgaest was saying that we must read
the Eddas as useful and revealing, but not in the sense of a Norse Bible
or Asatru Koran (I'm being humorous- his points were subtler and
deeper).

The Odinic Rite Vinland is about to release "Odinic Mythology", by the
way, which should give an idea of the OR's interest in the sources of
the mythology.

And the OR website is always worth a look at
http://www.lrbcg.com/heathen/ . There is much on the site about ritual
practice, the conception of the deities, etc.

[Susan Granquist]

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Hnikar wrote:

> At no time has the leadership of the Odinic Rite said the Eddas were not
> used, Susan, nor, as you have claimed, that they should be "discarded".
> Very perceptive commentary, quite scholarly and in depth, has been made
> by people from across the spectrum that one must read any source
> critically and not as a Christian reads the Bible or a Moslem reads the
> Koran.

Speaking for yourself again, Hnikr?

> I suggest people have a look at the Odinic Rite website to see for
> themselves.
> http://www.lrbcg.com/heathen/
>
> Susan, you have lied here just as you lied when you say I have
> differentiated Folkish Asatru from Asatru. You know that in truth I

Do go back and read that post again. I said nothing about the web-site.

You have often differentiated Folkish Asatru from Asatru. Anyone who goes
thought he archives of this newsgroup can see it and find dozens of posts
that state that exact thing..not that it makes you any kind of authority
on it, but truth is truth.

> have differentiated two different faiths claiming the title of Asatru,
> Folkish and universalist, all the while acknowledging the full range of
> opinion. I am an Asatruar and have been since the days of the Asatru
> Free Assembly, of which I was a member.

Nice try. I did think the sudden re-emergence of the "universalist"
pretty funny when you'd all been carrying on about two different religions
using the term Asatru and how they were NOT the same, nor the same
community.

> I'm tempted to be drawn into your "I'm Asatru, and you're not" game,
> because I think Folkish Asatruar have a strong case, but what is the
> purpose? I think your need to lie and snipe at the efforts of others
> speaks for itself, and I would not wish to unintentionally insult those
> Asatruar who disagree with my beliefs honorably and intelligently in the
> midst of quarreling with you.

I have not once said that you were not asatru and I was. I have agreed
with you that they are two different religions is all. I believe in
self-determination, but I also believe that anyone with honor will make a
statement and stick to it and not try to redefine things to suit
themselves every few months or who call others liars when it is ointed
out.

I am Asatru. I have said that as long as you're using Asatru you're part;
of the same community. I am not Odinist. I don't consider that to be the
same thing as Asatru and have presented logical arguemnts and reasons for
that opinion, as well as having heard it expressed by some Odinists.
I have stated over and over that had the Kennewick Man been claimed by
Odinists I'd have totally ignored them.

[Susan Granquist]

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Hnikar wrote:

> I hasten to add to my last post that the wonderful recent Eddic threads
> here, analyzing stanza by stanza, were imported from the Odinic Rite
> list. This stands in stark constrast to Susan's claims of the OR's
> disinterest in the Eddas.

I claimed that some of the OR leaders said the Eddas were "tainted"
and so on. I said nothing about the *recent* Eddic threads from an Odinic
Rite list.

It's quite clear why you never quote anything in order to dispute it.

[Susan Granquist]

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Hnikar wrote:

> I'm guessing that Susan is distorting the views expressed by Wulgaest in
> the thread "Eddic Fundamentalism" some months back. The thread is well
> worth a re-read on Dejanews as the commentary was stimulating and astute
> from many posters. Essentially Wulfgaest was saying that we must read
> the Eddas as useful and revealing, but not in the sense of a Norse Bible
> or Asatru Koran (I'm being humorous- his points were subtler and
> deeper).

Nope, I wasn't. I'd forgotten all about that actually.

> And the OR website is always worth a look at
> http://www.lrbcg.com/heathen/ . There is much on the site about ritual
> practice, the conception of the deities, etc.

I agree, its definitely worth looking at.

[Hnikar]

Um, I always speak for myself, Susan, as I've indeed had to remind you
on occasion when you ask if I'm speaking for someone else. My words, my
post, speaking for myself...of course. I have no need or wish to speak
for others, they are all quite capable of forming and expressing their
opinions.

"Nice try" is your response when someone tells you what they believe?
"Sudden reemergence of universalist"? What on Earth are you talking
about?

I repeat, I have never differentiated my beliefs from Asatru. I have
said there are two faiths, each calling themselves Asatru, and which I
and many others refer to as Folkish and universalist. I have further
acknowleged that like "evolutionist" and "creationist" or like
"conservative" and "liberal" there are many shadings which defy the
labels, which are nonetheless descriptive of a truth. My position
hasn't changed and Dejanews will reflect that.

Kindly stop misrepresenting my views. Honest disagreement is great, but
to continually insist that you know better than I do what I think is
absurd. Surely you have something more to offer than the garbled and
regurgitated thoughts of others?

[Hnikar]

Just got to this. You weren't talking about the Eddic Fundamentalism
thread? What were you referring to with your "discarding the Eddas"
claim? Who among the leaders of the OR were you referring to? In what
context? These vague accusations, out of the side of your mouth, serve
no constructive purpose.

[Hnikar]

Yes, Susan, it is quite clear why I don't post anything to refute your
assertion that the leadership of the OR doesn't "accept" the Eddas or
wishes to "discard" them.

1. With my server I must laboriously type each word of others' posts
in, so I referred folks to the website, because it refutes your slur of
the OR, and to the "Eddic Fundamentalism" thread in Dejanews which I
have guessed is the source you are distorting. While this is not
posting a refutation, it is steering them to the source itself, which
demonstrates your willful misrepresentation.

2. You made the accusation. I have to prove a false accusation false,
when you have not proven it true? As I said, you were vague about
certain Odinist leaders blah blah blah, without references, quotes (not
even out of context!), nothing. If you accuse me of killing Kennedy, do
I have to provide evidence of my innocence? Can you just misrepresent
anyone's position as serves your self-interest and leave it to them to
prove you wrong? The burden of proof is on you, not on me.

Instead, why don't you try hearing what people present as their
position, and repeating it just like that?

[Susan Granquist]

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, D B Graphics wrote:

> being "Christian biased." Usually the comment that comes up when
> something there doesn't agree with one's cherished beliefs, and which
> rarely has any relationship to the actual Christian influences that
> scholars have identified.<<
>
> This is not all that true, you are making generalizations here.

It's a genralized statement yes, but supportable. Just recently there was
some complaints about Snorri making up Christain material and a particular
incident was cited. Only in that case, and in others, it can be shown in
a study of Indo-European lore to be fairly common and per-christian. Yet
in otherarea where it is *definitely* Christian and no scholar would say
otherwise there are some really strongly cherished beliefs that are
"accepted" as "heathen" and never questions particularly.

Odin or others as mortals being considered "gods" after their death, or
even before. Heathen, and "pre-Christian" and in fact one of the beliefs
that gave Christianity such a strong foothold to start with.

Hel and her table of famine and illness filled halls.

Just two "for examples."

> As for the lore, I have just as much of a chance to backtrack into
> english translations (I only read english) as anyone and I don't
> "discard" any of it - I just reserve the right to view any or all of
> the lore as "guidelines" or allegory. (I can't see myself taking
> the story of the giant suckeling the teet of a cow, or Thor riding
> accross the sky in a chariot pulled by goats as literal)

How would you justify political or social change/action based on those
Eddas? The Norse/Germanic peole were "conservative" when it came to some
things...and "custom" was hallowed...and in fact a form of hallowing. It
was discussing the conditions of social change and the moral imperatives
of the ethical systems that the discussion I've mentioned came up. What
makes this whole thread rather ridiculous is that I accepted the
statements as fairly astute and well thought out and accepted the
difference in religious/theological terms. It's really too bad that those
kind of discussions don't happen more often rather than this rather
superficial stuff.

> As far as "Christian biased." if comment that comes up and
> doesn't agree with my cherished beliefs is silly or just false.

Judging everyone by your own views or reactions isn't particulary
wise...or fair.

> Even Roric would not say that of me, or for that matter S.Hewit
> Steelfoot, Vidhar, or Vithar, and I have many items I do not agree
> with in ref. to the above folks. (some more than others)

So? I'm not disagreeing with that either, or saying that you don't. I am
saying that there are some rather cherished beliefs that are definitely
Christian "bias" and which are accepted as "heathen" without complaint,
while the "heathen" gets put down as "Christain" because someone doesn't
like it or doesn't see the background to it.

> >>I have a long standing habit of keeping personal correspondence,
> as well as postings to lists and newsgroups. <<
>
> We all know about the J. Edgar Granquist files or is that the "G" files?
> (It would make a great TV show, but a bit too off for even Moulder)

I thought more of it being a matter of research and being fair minded
enough to respect other viewpoints besides my own. Keeping them aslo
helped me review how I developed some of my own views and conclusions.
Most of them are from the years i the "clergy evaluation" period and just
after. They're records of my journey in this faith. I doubt they're
going to make much of any kind of a TV show though.

> >>I have several from leaders in the OR that specifically state that
> the Eddas are Christian tainted and are not used.<<
>
> Funny I have not seen that - I am not part of the OR nor do I agree
> with the leadership structure, but I look at them as brothers and
> sisters in the faith, In fact it is even more strange in that some
> issues about the Lore posted here started first on the OR list!

Funny, but I'm not surprised that it starts there and ends up here. Even
funnier is that I don't have any problem with their leadership structure,
nor many of the members, at least the ones that I know of. I'm not too
impressed with the members that hide their membership and ay they're
independent or represent themselves in any other than a truthful manner,
but that's probably not of any concern to them anyway.

> If I remember right you never wanted to work me "up" on the lore...
> for the most part that ends up as "who has the best resourse library"
> rather than a real conversation on the faith.

I view it as who has the most interest and is willing to sacrifice time,
money and even ideas to continue to learn and better understand the lore
and literature of the Norse/Germanic poeple. Written down by Christians
or not.

>
> >>For instance I still find it puzzling that Mr. McNallen in putting
> together a viking age ceremony missed the section about cattle
> and kinsmen dying or the advice in the Sigdrifumal.<<
>
> I dont think you find anything "puzzling" about McNallen - I think
> you are out to nitpick him and his work in a sad try at hurting the
> AFA or Steve as a person - what gives with this?

Jus tone of those questions that people keep coming up with that I have no
answer for...and am curious about myself. You know that's the real
problem. Hatred and such..those are easily deflected. Curiosity..and
especially a woman's.. :) Much more motivating.

[Hnikar]

In response to a reasonable comment about the OR by Doug, Susan wrote,

"I'm not too impressed with the members that hide their membership and

say they're independent...." Which OR members are hiding their
membership? To whom precisely does this comment refer?

I am the only person if late that you've asked whether I represent
others with my posts, and I replied that I do not. My words are mine.
I surrender my independence of thought to no one as it is the birthright
of each. My signature and my website clearly define me, however, as an
OR member.

It would be a better policy to clearly state whose ideas or actions you
are representing, or misrepresenting, and to provide some justification
for your comments.

[Susan Granquist]

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Hnikar wrote:

> In response to a reasonable comment about the OR by Doug, Susan wrote,

> "I'm not too impressed with the members that hide their membership and

> say they're independent...." Which OR members are hiding their
> membership? To whom precisely does this comment refer?
>
> I am the only person if late that you've asked whether I represent
> others with my posts, and I replied that I do not. My words are mine.
> I surrender my independence of thought to no one as it is the birthright
> of each. My signature and my website clearly define me, however, as an
> OR member.
>
> It would be a better policy to clearly state whose ideas or actions you
> are representing, or misrepresenting, and to provide some justification
> for your comments.

I wasn't talking about you or to you.

[Perchten93]

S. Granquist, I wish there was a way to tell which posts are yours before I
open them. My you're an arrogant boor!

Seriously disgusted,
Kirin
Heilsa!
~Kirin

[Susan Granquist]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of reader are you using? I can't think
of a single one that wouldn't show the name or address of the poster.
Perhaps if you try sorting by name instead of subject in your reader you
could tell.

[Hnikar]

It is interesting and revealing, I think, that statements which note the
possibility of Christian influence in the Eddas, and that regardless we
should not view them as a Holy Writ but as valuable source documents
filled with wisdom and insight, have been distorted into claims that
some unnamed individuals wish to "discard the Eddas". And that
meantime, far more critical assessment of the work of Guido von List has
been recast as evidence that Folkish Asatru is derived from his thought.

Such distortions are merely clumsy propaganda, very evident when the
opposite ways each is twisted are revealed side-by-side.

[ro...@yolo.com]

In article <6lp92l$k0h$1...@newsd-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,

Cr...@webtv.net (Hnikar) wrote:
>
> It is interesting and revealing, I think, that statements which note the

> possibility of Christian influence in the Eddas . . . have been distorted

> into claims that some unnamed individuals wish to "discard the Eddas". And
> that meantime, far more critical assessment of the work of Guido von List has
> been recast as evidence that Folkish Asatru is derived from his thought.
> Such distortions are merely clumsy propaganda, very evident when the
> opposite ways each is twisted are revealed side-by-side.
>
> Hnikar
> AOR/AFA/Raven Kindred AA (Honorary)

Hnikar, who do you think is responsible for this "propaganda," and what is
its purpose? Leaving aside Susan's (so far) unsubstantiated claims, isn't it
true that a new Asatruar recently posted a request for sources of information
on the faith, indicating that he had not (and presumably would not) read the
Eddas because he had been told of their "Christian influence?" Who do you
think told him that, and why? Do you dispute that there are plenty of
Asatruar out there who can spout List at the drop of a rune, who couldn't
tell Þrymskviða from Vafþrúðnismál?

[Hnikar]

A number of people have made the claims I noted, Rorik, among them the
unsubstantiated claims of Susan concerning the Eddic critiques of
unnamed individuals (that they advocated "discarding" them), and
commentary of, if I recall correctly, No One and Grant concerning von
List. The purpose in some cases has been to discredit and dismiss those
at whom the comments are directed, hence my terming it "propaganda".

I know of no one who has been steered, as you indicate, away from the
Eddas by Asatruar/Odinists. To the contrary, all Asatruar/Odinists of
whom I am aware steer folks to the Eddas as valuable sources. World
Tree provides them in its catalog. The AFA was key in getting the U of
Texas to reprint them in '87. The OR's "Odinic Mythology" looks to
them. This is the reason that when Susan made her vague comments about
unnamed OR officials not "accepting" the Eddas, I posted the URL for the
OR website to demonstrate the value the OR places on the Eddas. I would
be most interested if you know of anyone who has steered folks away from
the Eddas, because that is the only way we could begin to find out why
anyone would do such a thing.

As for people being more familiar with von List than the Eddas, no one I
know fits the bill. I would guess, however, that folks with a primary
interest in the runes might tend to study von List more closely. I see
nothing wrong with any number of approaches, whether an intensive look
at the Eddas like Wm Reaves, whether an appreciation of the Eddas with a
focus on much else besides (such as philosophy or music), whether a look
into arcane matters surrounding the runes. In all cases, these Asatruar
have shown an appreciation for the source documents, however they may
judge external influences on them, however they place them in the whole
scheme of knowledge. No one has turned a blind eye on them, or steered
others away from them. To the contrary.

The whole point of my post was that in their representation of the
beliefs of Folkish Asatruar, some have resorted to contradictory
approaches on given questions, as serves their negative interests. If
one makes a critical appraisal of the Eddas, while acknowledging them to
be of value, they twist it one way into a wish to "discard the Eddas".
If one makes a critical appraisal of von List, while acknowledging him
to be of value, they twist it the other way into one's religion arising
from the works of von List.

I do not consider the Eddas to be Holy Writ akin to the Bible or the
Koran among their Believers. Appraising them with open eyes should not,
therefore, be misinterpreted in Biblical terms, as rejection. I know of
absolutely no Asatruar who does not understand the value of the Eddas to
the rebirth of the faith. They are not, however, the faith itself. The
faith is the living gods, and those who gather to honor them. The Eddas
are a pathway, and we must not follow it blindly, nor may we disregard
it.

Hnikar
AOR/AFA/Raven Kindred AA (Honorary)

Hnikar's Folkish Asatru Page:

[Heimdall]

ro...@yolo.com wrote:

> Hei, Hnikar: I think the phenomenon of "discarding the Eddas" is a very
> real and widespread problem in American Asatru. Go back and reread the April
> 23 post from Fred Yoder. Here's somebody with little or no information about
> our religion, coming in with a clean slate, seeking knowledge, and what's he
> told? "Whatever ya do, boy, DON'T READ THEM EDDAS! They be ‘on the Christian
> side,' you stay clear of them, hear?"

Right, someone said that did they? No, nobody said that or anything like it.
Some stated reasons they believed that the Eddas might have a christian
influence. So what? Opinions are important parts of our Faith as it lives and
grows. It didn't die with the Edda's or Saga's.

> He had no idea what he SHOULD be
> reading, but he'd already been warned away from the Eddas as his first step
> toward enlightenment. Put yourself in the position of a newbie who is
> lurking on a.r.a. to see what this religion is all about. You see one
> long-time participant denigrate Völuspà as having no more value than the Book
> of Revelations, while another states without contradiction that most a.r.a.
> subscribers "understand" that the Eddic poems are indistinguishable from
> made-up stories any one of us might concoct over a cold beer.

Which posts were these? It's possible I missed them but I think those words
would have stuck out to me.

> What is the
> predictable effect of this sort of thing on people who don't have the
> experience or knowledge base to judge for themselves?

I imagine that what they seek is knowledge and part of that are the opinions of
living breathing followers of the Faith. It's highly unlikely that the Edda's
will ever be turned into an Asatru Bible. All parts of our faith are important
and that includes the thoughts and visions of Asatruar today. The Edda's are
extremely important and are treated as such by most Asatruar. They aren't placed
on a shrine however.

<snipped >

> I don't have a
> solution for this problem, but I think it's one we should all recognize. It
> can't be dismissed as merely propaganda.
>
> fmg,
> rorik
>

No, not a conspiracy. It's more a dispute between the faith as a whole, growing,
entity and it being a scholarly work to be studied and never progress. I'd be
fascinated to hear how you view the Gods and Goddesses today and if they even
exist for you outside the date of the Edda's.

Heimdall
AFA/AOR/Himinbjorg Kindred

[ro...@yolo.com]

Hei, Hnikar: I think the phenomenon of "discarding the Eddas" is a very
real and widespread problem in American Asatru. Go back and reread the April
23 post from Fred Yoder. Here's somebody with little or no information about
our religion, coming in with a clean slate, seeking knowledge, and what's he
told? "Whatever ya do, boy, DON'T READ THEM EDDAS! They be ‘on the Christian

side,' you stay clear of them, hear?" He had no idea what he SHOULD be

reading, but he'd already been warned away from the Eddas as his first step
toward enlightenment. Put yourself in the position of a newbie who is
lurking on a.r.a. to see what this religion is all about. You see one
long-time participant denigrate Völuspà as having no more value than the Book
of Revelations, while another states without contradiction that most a.r.a.
subscribers "understand" that the Eddic poems are indistinguishable from

made-up stories any one of us might concoct over a cold beer. What is the

predictable effect of this sort of thing on people who don't have the

experience or knowledge base to judge for themselves? Where are they
going to turn, once they've been guided away from the Eddas? Some will pick
up the Thorsson/Gundarson/Aswyn stuff. Some will find the path of
pan-germanic paganism. Others will wind up being drawn into the orbit of the
Nazis and racists. Chasing people away from the Eddas isn't going to turn
them into Nazis, but giving them a basic grounding in our lore can help them
understand why Naziism has nothing to offer them. I don't have a

solution for this problem, but I think it's one we should all recognize. It
can't be dismissed as merely propaganda.

fmg,
rorik

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

[ro...@yolo.com]

In article <35820FD1...@geocities.com>,
Heimdall <heim...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
> ro...@yolo.com wrote:
> > . . .

> > Here's somebody with little or no information about our religion, coming in
> > with a clean slate, seeking knowledge, and what's he told? "Whatever ya do,

> > boy, DON'T READ THEM EDDAS! They be 双n the Christian side,' you stay
> > clear of them, hear?"
>

> Right, someone said that did they? No, nobody said that or anything like it.

Okay, let's hear YOUR explanation of how somebody who's never read the Eddas
forms the opinion that they should not be consulted because they're "on the
Christian side." Do you think the gods appeared in a dream and cautioned him
against these degenerate texts?

> Which posts were these? It's possible I missed them but I think those words
> would have stuck out to me.

The specific posts I was referring to were Paal-Eirik's of 5/17 and Asa
Bolverk's of 6/5 and 6/6. However, these are just examples of what I see as a
common theme on a.r.a.

> I'd be fascinated to hear how you view the Gods and Goddesses today and if
> they even exist for you outside the date of the Edda's.

Actually, my views are virtually identical to your "Sources of Faith" post of
6/12, especially the part about "discard nothing but question all." Among the
things we should question closely are claims of Christian influence in the
Eddas, which almost always originate from Christian scholars or people with
insufficient knowledge of linguistics and comparative religion to recognize
genuine Christian influence in Old Norse texts if it bit them on the codpiece.

[S. M. Hewitt]

On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:03:51 GMT, ro...@yolo.com wrote:

>Hei, Hnikar: I think the phenomenon of "discarding the Eddas" is a very
>real and widespread problem in American Asatru.
>

>fmg,
>rorik

The Eddas are crucial. You show me a man who says that the Havamal is
tainted, you'll have just shown me both a fool and -- quite possibly
an etin, as well.

...discard the Eddas? Then what would we have?

We know more about our cosmology than many other native peoples. The
Maya had activist priests burning hundreds of codices...priceless
treasures of Mayan culture...and mathematics, astronomy and history,
as well. Even those of the Sagas which were mutilated were more
complete than we may have a right to expect.

...but is there some significant (or even slight) christian "taint"?

The Sagas say as much: Grettir was born after the conversion, Snorri
goði built a church...and every word on every page on every Saga and
every lay in the Elder Edda was put there *by* a christian! Of course
there may have been some influence...but, give the Icelanders some
credit...they did a pretty good job, despite this handicap.

We are also fortunate to have had some pretty savvy scholars down
through the years...and still have some kicking about (if this current
Völuspá thread is any indication...it is to me!). We owe a debt to
Thorsson, Gundarson...and to R.I. Page, Ellis Davidson, this guy
Rydberg Bill Reaves is so hot about, Grueber, and others (excuse me if
I spelled any names wrong). I personally put a the name Ásatrú to the
faith I'd held for years when I first found the Nine Noble Virtues...I
burst out laughing, saying "My, my...they seem to have put it all in
*one* place!" It took one of our more recent heathens...living in the
christian West...to extract these gems from the Eddas.

I said all that to be able to say this: we're all damned lucky to
have what we have, and we should give thanks for it. But, this is
still a religion of the believer...not of the All-Knowing, All-Seeing
Great and Flawless Cosmic Bully. We honor and worship...and read and
learn...for ourselves and our friends and families. We have no "holy
books" to beat eachother over the head with...we have no bible. The
Æsir wouldn't make it *that* easy!

In fact, rereading this posting before sending it (and, yes, I
sometimes to that), it occurs to me that we on this flame-ridden
newsgroup will fight about just about everything...but be very
complimentary and polite when we actually discuss lore...who wrote,
did, was the patron of what, etc. This is not hard and fast *rule*,
but it seems to be a pattern. Isn't *that* amazing.

As far as neophytes go, I would recommend:

* read and think about the Noble Virtues first, define each, and
relate them to their lives.

* read and reread...and then reread...at least two different
translations of the Havamal (three, if one of them is Auden's...and
one of them should be), and think about it in relation to their lives.

* read the Gylfaginning, realizing that Snorri's yarn about the Æsir
coming from Troy is crap.

* read a couple of general histories...Magnusson's is excellent...and
one of ol' Hilda's religious histories...learn the culture.

* read the Sagas...again, learn the people, the culture...how would
the Old Ones have reacted to the world we live in (takes some
imagination, this)

* read some of the other lays in the Eddas...as you see references to
them, or the mood strikes you, or you feel the need.

* THEN begin to analyze any christian taint...become critical or
jaded...decide to take up seiðr...or spout off to any other newbie
about how "Snorri is useless" or that "the Eddas are all full of
christian stuff". Then begin to have an opinion.

...I'm not the best read guy in this newsgroup (by far), nor am I the
smartest...but I am smart enough to know that any success at new field
of endeavor requires an open mind, advice from *several* sources, and
luck. The pattern detailed above is the pattern I ended up using, and
it worked for me!

I was reading Beowulf online the other day...and found it an easy
matter to overlook the christian references peppered throughout what
should be *our* story. The English, it would seem, weren't as
circumspect as the Icelanders when it came to religious editorial
comment and pre-christian material. The christian stuff was pretty
obvious, rather rudely inserted and ham-handed...surprise,
surprise...and as easily picked out as are anchovies.

...and Heimdall is quite correct in emphasizing the importance of
individual experience...life and religious experience...in our travels
with the Æsir. I read and I read, and that little voice in my ear
doesn't get any louder or softer...my reading doesn't help me
understand my Gods any better, really, beyond the outlines. What
*does* help me understand them...and with a vengence...is their
personal and intimate contact with me. My reading of the Eddas and
the Sagas and the Histories has led me to a greater understanding of
the Old Ones...of Egill, of Snorri goði, Arnkel goði, of Ragnar and
Ivarr, of the young men gone a'viking...and a greater intimacy and
understanding of all of you.

Christians put so much emphasis on a detailed knowledge of their holy
book. I honestly believe that you could know and apply the Noble
Virtues and understand the Havamal...and no other lore...apply their
wisdom to life, and be one crackingly good ásatrúar. But, that would
be a waste, when the lore is so rich...why not have it all, even with
the questions.

Have christian rites found their way into our religion through
infiltration of our Eddas and Sagas? Perhaps...but I prefer to think
of it as our getting our own back for them ripping Christmas and
Easter off of us...without so much as a footnote attribution.

-- Steve

[Hnikar]

I've been slow to respond because my schedule has been hectic, and
because we were without a keyboard for awhile after Suzanne graced it
with a large quantity of an exceptionally good stout. In the interim,
much that I would have said has been said, and well, on this and the
sibling thread.

I have understood the earlier posts differently than you have, Rorik. I
don't draw nearly as sweeping conclusions as you have as to their
meaning. I have found no one really saying anything all that radical
(including on the issue of personal revelation and experience), though
personal opinions do vary greatly. It is that which I referred to in my
unanswered call to Susan that she justify her claims against the unnamed
"OR leader". As you've noted, and others (and I agree with you that
Heimdall's "discard nothing, but question all" is valuable advice), our
texts are not above criticism. Since, however, many come to our faith
from faiths in which the texts are the "Word of God", we doubtless get
some who will take our ability to look closely at our texts as an
indication that they are not up to snuff. If they do so, we must make
clear- as I think we have- that to criticise elements of our texts is
not to devalue them. Those who've made the deepest criticisms are often
scholars who've taken the time to read them in Old Norse, and who value
them greatly.

The issues you have raised are surely not propaganda, and I would not
characterise them as such, although I have seen events differently than
you have. However, propaganda has been created and posted on this
issue, efforts to distort the positions of others into absurdities in an
attempt to discredit. The "discarding the Eddas" comments, and the
statement that OR leaders had said they "do not accept" the Eddas are
clearly of that sort. Since the same methods of distorting my position
on many issues were repeatedly used, the intent is clear.

I've yet to meet any Asatruar who doesn't place value on the Eddas,
whether I agree or disagree with particular critiques or lack thereof. I
do not believe that anyone among us would steer people away from the
Eddas, though there are those who caution us not to transform them into
divine texts such as many have been raised to consider the appropriate
place of religious texts. It is an important warning, even if the
occasional newcomer, with his preconceptions, mistakes it for something
more.

I agree with the point you made recently about the organic origin of the
Eddas, derived across generations. They are indispensible to the
revival of the practice of the faith.

[Ngilcach]

Hnikar wrote <<.. the Eddas, <snip> .. are indispensible to the

revival of the practice of the faith.>>

** I couldnt have said it better myself.

In Service ...
Yngona Tyrsvardh