It's not your fault
JB
am. I believe that these thoughts resulted from my pride/ego having
been hurt because I didn't get the responses to some recent posts that
I thought I ought to have had. At first, I did not realise that this
might be so. Now that I do, I feel no shame in admitting it to you
because in doing so I'm facing up to the fact that I sometimes still
prefer to blame others for making me want to self-harm rather than
accept that it's my choice and therefore entirely my responsibility.
When I joined this NG last June, I had no problem laying the blame for
my alcoholism, anorexia and the other things I've done to harm myself
on others. If they hadn't done to me what they did, I would have been
OK. Yeah, right :^)
The point I am trying to make is this: I know in my head and heart
that the only person who makes me drink is me. Being an alcoholic
who knows that it's best for her not to drink again, I must never
forget this. I must also never forget the benefits I've gained from
working the recovery programme I've chosen to follow and believe in
the possibility of gaining further benefit from it if I keep working
it.
Even if I'm the only person who gains benefit from this post, I think
writing it has been worth while.
All the best
JB
neuro equipoise
> As some of you know, I've again been thinking
> about drinking. I still am.
I wish you well, JB. I wish you success claiming this day as another
forward step in your sobriety.
> I believe that these thoughts resulted from my
> pride/ego having been hurt because I didn't get
> the responses to some recent posts that I thought
> I ought to have had.
Pride and ego actually belong to the lower brain which is in charge of
cravings. When our serotonin plunges during anger, resentment, stress,
the lower brain takes command. The lower brain does not *think*. It
acts on impulses. If serotonin is *too* low, the lower brain starts a
craving cycle for sugar. It doesn't *think* beyond that, because it
doesn't think.
A non-alcoholic has a stronger network of positive chemistry in the
higher brain to over-ride impulses, but an alcoholic is more fragile.
JB, raise your serotonin in other ways today. You are a valued member
of this newsgroup, and I send you my best wishes for success this day.
Stay well.
JB
"neuro equipoise" <NeuroEq...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21402-405...@storefull-3278.bay.webtv.net...
> As some of you know, I've again been thinking
> about drinking. I still am.
I wish you well, JB. I wish you success claiming this day as another
forward step in your sobriety.
<snip>
I send you my best wishes for success this day.
Stay well.
Thank you NE.
JB
Blue Moon
>As some of you know, I've again been thinking about drinking. I still
>am. I believe that these thoughts resulted from my pride/ego having
>been hurt because I didn't get the responses to some recent posts that
>I thought I ought to have had.
Ah, the old "expectations" are coming out for a sun-tan :) I thought
that t-shirt was hidden away in a drawer at my own home.
If you really feel the need to be vomitingly drunk beyond the point of
mental insanity, be my guest. Though, or course, there is the risk
that the opportunity for recovery may not arise again. Sometimes I
think AA is perceived as too successful - the REAL stories about
alcoholism are not heard in any AA meeting, because most do not
recover.
When I caught myself entertaining thoughts that "just the one wouldn't
hurt", I found it helpful to consider the thinking...
"Does it matter if I drink?"
If the answer is "yes", then surely I'd be insane to drink. That's a
given, right?
But what if the answer is "no"? That was my dilemma.
However, thinking that through to its logical conclusion, if the
answer really IS "no" then ... Why drink? In fact, why even spend
time THINKING about drinking?
I took a decision to not drink that day. The moment I did so, sanity
was restored. I could then reflect on how insane my thinking had been
just moments before.
Seems you have too much time to think. Suggest you get busy with
something, like attending a newcomers meeting to see where drinking
can take you, or working whatever Step you need to be working on.
--
Blue Moon
JB
news:3c343124e7a21ab3...@news.teranews.com...
> something, like attending a newcomers meeting to see where drinking
> can take you, or working whatever Step you need to be working on.
Hi Blue,
When I started this thread, it was after I had read Aspitwo's
comments:
"The only people here with brains and compassion are Blue Moon and
Julie. The rest of you are AA robots with no brain cells left and a
head full of trite phrases from a crap Big Book written in the 1930s
by pseudo spiritual morons. Goodnight all."
I found them extremely hurtful. While I held onto this hurt, I
recalled memories of other times when I've shown someone my
compassionate side, tried to help them and been "kicked in the teeth"
for it.
Coming so soon after what happened in the thread "
Warning............." and at a time when life at home has been
disrupted for several weeks by incidents caused by my husband's
condition, I feel sure that at the time I thought about drinking I'd
temporarily reached the end of my tether.
While wondering what chance I might have of ever being able to cope
with life sober if I couldn't learn to deal with both the real world
and this cyber one, I made an effort to think about some things my
Sponsor had very recently told me and read some of the BB. (ie I took
positive action).
I believe that my Sponsor's view that alcoholism will kick someone's
arse far harder than any human can and also the BB's arguments that
with alcoholics:
" .. there was always the curious mental phenomenon that parallel
with our sound reasoning there inevitably ran some insanely trivial
excuse for taking the first drink"
and:
"when we begin to drink deliberately ................ there was little
serious or effective thought during the period of premeditation of
what the terrific consequences might be" (Refs: Alcoholics Anonymous,
(3rd ed) page 37).
to be true. IMO, this puts me in a better position than in the past
to not act on any thoughts I have about drinking at least for today.
Best regards.
JB
I
Blue Moon
>I found them extremely hurtful. While I held onto this hurt, I
>recalled memories of other times when I've shown someone my
>compassionate side, tried to help them and been "kicked in the teeth"
>for it.
So resentment can breed resentment.
It is enough to show the compassionate side. If others have a problem
with it, that's their problem. You do the things you do for you, not
for them.
This is why people who try to recover for others (to save a
relationship, for example) generally don't succeed. They may arrive
in recovery mode with that motive, but in order to recover the motive
needs to change. Why? Because the other person will always
eventually do or say something that produces a resentment, and then a
"f*** it" reaction. Recover for self, and the resentment can still
happen but the thinking can stop at the resentment rather than move
beyond the "f*** it".
--
Blue Moon
JB
I understand what you're saying. Thank you.
JB
neuro equipoise
> I found them extremely hurtful. While I held onto
> this hurt, I recalled memories of other times when
> I've shown someone my compassionate side, tried
> to help them and been "kicked in the teeth" for it.
"BUDDHA AND COW DUNG - a Zen Buddhism Koan"
"The famous Chinese poet Su Tung-po (1036-1100) in the Song Dynasty
wrote very simple Chinese Poems based on Buddhist Philosophy, he himself
being a very religious person.
One day he visited a Buddhist Temple and meditated with the Monk
Buddhastamp. After a little while, Su asked the Monk: "Look at me. I am
sitting here meditating. What do I look like?"
Buddhastamp examined Su closely for a while and said, "Officer, you are
very solemn, healthy and gentle. You look like a Buddha Statue." Su was
very pleased with the answer.
After a while, Buddhastamp asked Su this time, "Officer, I am sitting
here meditating also. What do I look like?"
Mr. Su thought, this Monk always got the upperhand whenever we debated
on any subject matters. Now, I got the opportunity to win this time. So,
he said, "You look like a pile of cow dung." This time, the Monk just
smiled and did not argue with him at all.
Thinking that he had won the debate, Mr. Su went about telling everybody
in town how he did it, until his younger sister heard of his story. "My
dear brother," said Miss Su, "you had lost the debate completely."
"What!? I am sure the Monk was dumbfound. How come I lost the debate?"
"Dear brother," said Miss Su, "the Monk's heart was filled with Buddha
nature, therefore he saw you as a Buddha. But your heart was filled with
cow dung, and therefore you saw him as a pile of cow dung."
*
JB, don't let the dung-offs get you down : )
Bobby L.
"JB" <JBC...@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c36q8a$cc9$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Keep it green JB -- that's how we try to make sure we don't forget. But
whether you do this or that, it's still just one day at a time.
Good on ya'
Bobby L
Bethe Blasienz
>When I joined this NG last June, I had no problem laying the blame for
>my alcoholism, anorexia and the other things I've done to harm myself
>on others. If they hadn't done to me what they did, I would have been
>OK. Yeah, right :^)
Remember, this disease is a very selfish disease. My sister is in stage 3 of
renal failure as a result of her drinking, her wounded pride, her lack of self
worth.......and she did it all by herself to herself with no outside help
because it:
1. suited her personal agenda
2. it pleased her to do so
3. because she could
Now she is paying the price of her selfishness. To top it off, she has no
medical insurance because she cannot hold down a job. She is living with my
parents and attempting to get her life back on track under extremely close
supervision......and this is a gal with a brilliant mind, a professional, but
one who could not handle, for whatever reason, the ups and downs of living day
to day. Now she is on my watch and until she accepts the fact that she is sick
because of herself, she will stay on my watch......which includes AA which I
shall be attending with her whether she likes it or not. When she learns that
her friends are not her friends in the true sense and when she figures out that
friends are not to be purchased and when she learns that people like her for
who she is and not what she can do for them, then we will be starting down the
long road to recovery.
Best of luck..........and find a passion in life that will consume you to the
point where drinking would sabatage your passion rather than enhance it and
believe me, life will look a whole lot better. And when you attempt to blame
others for your predicament, go look in the mirror first and then try to blame
others.....not quite so easy to do when you are looking at yourself. Stay
sober and enjoy life.........it is worth living to the fullest.
Bethe Blasienz
Long Living Fat Horse Farms
Bryan, Texas
http://www.geocities.com/equinemaids/stall_cleaning.html
Kai2
Bethe,
How do I tell you this, gently. You cannot save her through sheer force
of will.
And, further, if you keep it up at this pace, you will kill yourself in
the process.
-IF- and I do mean -if- SHE decides that recovery is what she wants, she
will
recover. If she does not, nothing you or your family does will make a
difference
in the end. You must come to grips with this. I know it is hard, and
you can't
believe that your love is not strong enough, and your total commitment
will be
enough, but it is not. And that is a very very hard thing to accept,
but accept it you
must, for your own sake. You did not create this situation, and you
cannot change it.
You can love her, and I am sure you do, but that is all. From the tone
of your message,
I can see you starting down the long hard road, with no happy end. I
have been on this
road myself, and I know what I am talking about. Watching someone kill
themselves one day
at a time, throw away all their gifts and talents, ignore all offers of
love and help....
well, there are just no words that do justice to the anguish. Please
take a step back,
listen to what the people here are trying to tell you. We have been
where you are going.
It doesn't work.
You are in my thoughts.
Kai2
Kirk S.
Hi JB,
I understand where you are coming from and at times, want to tie one on to
escape from reality. Alas, I already know the outcome and I can't get away
from myself. There is no escape for me. As Blue Moon stated, doing
something "in order to" results in nothing except frustration and
resentment. I work to look at times when my feelings were hurt or I felt
used by others and realize that I had some part in the hurt. Being open and
extending myself is a good quality however some people don't really
understand it and will use it as an opportunity to cause pain. Or, I would
use the hurt as an excuse to use. Not always possible however I try to
understand why these people are so angry and hurtful, to not make it about
me. To understand how helpless they must feel to cause pain in someone else
to justify their own feelings. Of course, other times, I want to turn them
into a punching bag!
Hang in there, baby! <gawd, that is an old one...> Your input is important
to me.
Kirk S.
>
>
Kai2
A couple of other thoughts I forgot the first time.
I know that keeping her home, and isolated seems
the perfect solution, but she knows you all as
well as you think you know her. She will say
what you want to hear, but will not really think
it applies to her. She will lead you down a
merry road, bs'ing you all the way until she
gets her first chance to break out, and break
out she will.
I know that finances are a consideration here,
but please consider looking into some sort of
treatment center options to present to her.
You cannot make her go, but you can present
her options to her in a clear manner. She
most probably will not recover without any
professional intervention. I am saying
"probably" as of course, there are always
exceptions. But, in my experiences, both
good and bad, with treatment centers - at
least there is a shot at facing up to reality.
Sometimes hearing the facts from strangers
has more impact that those same facts from
the mouths of our loved ones. And, strangers
who have been there are less likely to
accept bs and excuses. They really have
seen/heard it all.
Also, you cannot "go" to AA meetings with
her...you can drive her there, but most
meetings are closed, for good reason.
I don't know how honest my husband would be
if I were sitting there next to him at all
times. I know I wouldn't be.
Kai2
JB
news:20040317085838...@mb-m19.news.cs.com...
> >From: "JB" JBC...@coldman.com
>
> >When I joined this NG last June, I had no problem laying the blame
for
> >my alcoholism, anorexia and the other things I've done to harm
myself
> >on others. If they hadn't done to me what they did, I would have
been
> >OK. Yeah, right :^)
>
> Remember, this disease is a very selfish disease. My sister is in
stage 3 of
> renal failure as a result of her drinking, her wounded pride, her
lack of self
> worth.......and she did it all by herself to herself with no outside
help
<snip>
> Now she is paying the price of her selfishness. To top it off, she
has no
> medical insurance because she cannot hold down a job. She is living
with my
> parents and attempting to get her life back on track under extremely
close
> supervision......
<snip>
Dear Bethe,
Firstly, I am very sorry to hear how ill your sister has become on
account of her drinking.
I read your post after returning from a lunchtime AA meeting at which
I chose to share part of my life story. One of things I said was that
although I sometimes thought that I had a drinking problem, I never
thought it necessary to change my ways until I decided I not longer
wanted the kind of life alcohol gave me. On more than one occasion,
alcohol has brought me to the point of thinking about committing
suicide by either overdosing on ad's, crashing my car or slashing my
wrists for example. At this time, I'm thinking that I'm glad to be
alive even though I feel sure that I'm never gong to be able to make
life always perfect for me :^)
I hope that your sister will soon be at the place where all alcoholics
must be before they can start to recover from their alcoholism. That
place is where they decide that they no longer want the kind of life
that alcohol gives them and still want to go on living. From there,
it is possible to learn how to "live life to the full" (as you've
said).
I wish all you all well and hope you will all find the courage,
strength and support you'll need to cope with whatever lies ahead.
JB
Alana Morgan
truth I've found in my own journey :)
I'm coming up on three years sobriety and my disease is still alive and
kicking - when I least expect it I find myself thinking that I could keep it
under control now that I have a much better life. Thankfully, I have not
forgotten what it felt like when I was out there, and that keeps me from
falling prey to the idea that I can drink like a "normal" person. A few
simple checks help me keep it real - the most basic is that a "normal"
drinker doesn't think about whether or not they can or should have a drink.
They don't plan drinks like I did and they don't spend the energy I did on
keeping alcohol in my life and now, keeping it out. My higher power,
thankfully, understands that I don't always get the subtle messages in life
and makes sure I see strong reminders - in meetings, in some of my friends
who are still out there, and in my own crazy thinking. I love what I have
for a life now, and I believe in the definition of insanity - doing the same
thing over and over and expecting different results - that's what keeps me
in line and remembering that to drink again and expect a different result
from what I got for 15 years is the craziest thing I could do.
I wish I could say that I never have those thoughts but to say that would be
to lie, and thankfully, the meetings in my area are full of people willing
to be rigorously honest and talk about when those thoughts start to come for
them, even at 15 years sobriety or more. For me to think that I will never
consider taking another drink is to deny the reality of myself--the natural
thing for me to do is drink, this new life is not natural, it takes work and
willingness, and as long as I keep it in terms of a day at a time, I believe
I'll be ok. The same goes for my resentments. If I pretend I don't resent
something, no matter if its justified or not (and rarely is it justified, if
ever) I begin to fall back into my old patterns. BUT - if I get it out
there, share it with another alcoholic, even I can see my character defects
in their full light, and its impossible (at least for me right now) to
continue to stew and breed the resentment - it always shows me that I am
actively trying to go back to believing that I don't have any
accountability, and that's a big step for me to the nearest pint. Some
words of wisdom from my dad (who is 29 years sober) keeps a smile on my face
and reality in view: what other people think of me is none of my business as
long as I keep putting one foot in front of the other on the road to the
next right thing.
Thanks so much for your honesty and putting your real stuff out there (here)
- that's going to any lengths!
Love and light
Alana
----------
In article <c36q8a$cc9$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "JB" <JBC...@coldman.com>
wrote:
JB
"Kirk S." <kspra...@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3yZ5c.16673$4B1....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>Hi JB
<snip>
Being open and
> extending myself is a good quality however some people don't really
> understand it and will use it as an opportunity to cause pain. Or,
I would
> use the hurt as an excuse to use. Not always possible however I try
to
> understand why these people are so angry and hurtful, to not make it
about
> me. To understand how helpless they must feel to cause pain in
someone else
> to justify their own feelings.
Kirk,
In my case, it isn't always someone's anger that causes me to think
about drinking. It can be what some might consider to be innocent
remarks :^) For example:
At the end of my AA meeting today, there was a group conscience
meeting. One of the issues discussed was the serving of tea and
coffee at meetings. The lady responsible for ensuring that these are
available is emigrating in two weeks time and I've been voted as her
replacement. I've been her assistant for several weeks.
This lady who's been in post for two years, has chosen not to take
responsibility for ensuring that every latecomer has a drink or that
extra kettles of boiled water are available for second drinks. I
chose to and have done so. I've never heard any complaints.
(smiling)
From things that were said today, I decided that attempts were being
made to get me, the "new" tea lady, to do the job according to how
others thought it should be done rather than in a way which felt
comfortable to me. I got defensive and before too long I felt such
disgust for everyone in the room including myself, for my anger and
frustration caused me to become tearful, that I had to escape from it.
I started to clear away the tea and coffee things.
As I retained from the kitchen to the meeting room where I'd left my
purse, coat and car keys one of the (grin) "enemy" saw me and invited
me over for a hug. My reply was curt:: "No".
A few minutes later I saw her outside talking to another of my "
enemies". Stoneyfaced, I walked straight past them.
(smiling)
Dear Kirk,
Writing this has been very good for me. It's helped me see how
ridiculous my behaviour was and also reminded me of something my
Sponsor very recently told me:
"It's human nature to make a big deal out of virtually nothing"
:^)
Thank you.
All the best
JB
JB
"Alana Morgan" <cosm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:hI06c.6964$CJ5....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hey JB - anything shared always helps someone else, no matter what-
a simple
> truth I've found in my own journey :)
<snip>
Dear Alana,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. FWIW, I get more benefit from
posts like yours than from those which suggest that life without booze
either is or can be perfect :^)
Best regards.
JB
Kirk S.
Hmmm...
I can relate at my last job. Some people were too important to start
another pot of coffee. It seemed that everytime I went for a cup, one of
the managers had just left with a full cup and there was very little left in
the bottom of the pot. I started to resent having to make coffee all the
time. I found myself upset about it and pissed off at everyone afterwards.
One day, there was someone else in making coffee after this manager had
left. She said something about feeling sorry for the guy; that he wasn't
smart enough to figure out how to make coffee. I got a good laugh out of it
and started thinking about it differently. Suddenly, I wasn't mad any more.
It was sorta funny.
Besides, since when does one of the members get voted as anothers servant?
Everyone should be willing to get up and get a newcomer a cup of coffee, tea
or whatever. Since this is a group, why not have it handled as a group.
Whoever is near the newcomer takes on the responsibility.
Unreasonable expectations and obligations. I know it cause me a lot of
resentments over the years. I disagree with having one person responsible
for it. This is just my opinion however.
>
> (smiling)
>
> From things that were said today, I decided that attempts were being
> made to get me, the "new" tea lady, to do the job according to how
> others thought it should be done rather than in a way which felt
> comfortable to me. I got defensive and before too long I felt such
> disgust for everyone in the room including myself, for my anger and
> frustration caused me to become tearful, that I had to escape from it.
> I started to clear away the tea and coffee things.
>
> As I retained from the kitchen to the meeting room where I'd left my
> purse, coat and car keys one of the (grin) "enemy" saw me and invited
> me over for a hug. My reply was curt:: "No".
>
> A few minutes later I saw her outside talking to another of my "
> enemies". Stoneyfaced, I walked straight past them.
>
> (smiling)
>
> Dear Kirk,
>
> Writing this has been very good for me. It's helped me see how
> ridiculous my behaviour was and also reminded me of something my
> Sponsor very recently told me:
Yes... It helps me as well. If I'm feeling upset about something or that
I've been wronged, writing it down really helps. It directs the energy into
something positive and by looking at what I've written, it helps diffuse the
situation. Ridiculous is, IMHO, a critical term and I choose to look at
such behaviors as a poor choice. This is how I break down self-defeating
behaviors, analyze my feelings and the behavior I chose to deal with those
feelings. If I don't like the outcome, I endeavor to stop and think next
time instead of simply reacting and work at choosing a more appropriate
behavior that deals with my feelings. Eventually, it become a new behavior
to deal with the feelings and happens automatically. Or at least, that is
my theory. I don't expect perfection, simply progress...
>
> "It's human nature to make a big deal out of virtually nothing"
Yep, and we also tend to make ourselves very important...
>
> :^)
>
> Thank you.
>
> All the best
>
> JB
Right back at you! I think you are doing good. Many people would simply
stay in the upset mood and not look at what they can do to avoid repeating
it.
Kirk S.
>
>
>
>
>
Julie
to anyone in the program who makes negitive comments (or helpful
suggestions, barf!) about how someone was doing service work has always been
to nominate "them to do it" (or share in the duty). I have yet to see even
one of these "helpful members" accept the challenge to be a "trusted
servant" and do what they recomend others to do.
Hugs,
Julie
JB
"Julie" <Juli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:OF36c.7138$CJ5....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > At the end of my AA meeting today, there was a group conscience
> > meeting. One of the issues discussed was the serving of tea and
> > coffee at meetings. The lady responsible for ensuring that these
are
> > available is emigrating in two weeks time and I've been voted as
her
> > replacement. I've been her assistant for several weeks.
> > This lady who's been in post for two years, has chosen not to
take
> > responsibility for ensuring that every latecomer has a drink or
that
> > extra kettles of boiled water are available for second drinks. I
> > chose to and have done so. I've never heard any complaints.
> >
> > (smiling)
> >
> > From things that were said today, I decided that attempts were
being
> > made to get me, the "new" tea lady, to do the job according to
how
> > others thought it should be done rather than in a way which felt
> > comfortable to me.
<snip> >
> Good for you! Sounds to me like your one excellent "tea lady." My
answer
> to anyone in the program who makes negitive comments (or helpful
> suggestions, barf!) about how someone was doing service work has
always been
> to nominate "them to do it" (or share in the duty).
(grin)
Julie,
You've reminded me that when one of those at the meeting spoke about
how he had "done the teas", I immediately offered to resign and
suggested that we vote in favour of him taking my place. He declined
to stand for election on the grounds that he'd already "done his time"
:^)
In my original post, I forget to say that the meeting also agreed that
I should have an assistant. This issue is to be raised at next week's
meeting. If no-one volunteers to help me, will someone be press ganged
into service ? :^)
All the best
JB
rosie
>................... I have yet to see even
> one of these "helpful members" accept the challenge to be a
"trusted
> servant" and do what they recomend others to do.
> Hugs,
> Julie
> >
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, service!
a good reason NOT to miss a home group meeting.................a
person could get "volunteered" real quick!
;)
Bethe Blasienz
>How do I tell you this, gently. You cannot save her through sheer force
>of will.
Alas, I know this only too well! But I refuse to sit idly by and do nothing; I
cannot go to her funeral and sit there knowing I didn't try.
>And, further, if you keep it up at this pace, you will kill yourself in
>the process.
Nah........I am too well aware of the pitfalls......plus for me, life is worth
living.....got horses, a family of my own to tend to.
>-IF- and I do mean -if- SHE decides that recovery is what she wants, she
>will
>recover.
Right, it is her choice to make, not mine. I, though, feel I must provide the
avenues for her to recover. I must at least show her the roads and leave it up
to her to travel down them.
>If she does not, nothing you or your family does will make a
>difference
>in the end. You must come to grips with this.
If she chooses not to recover, then that will be her decision to make and there
is nothing I or anyone else can do. Have I come to grips with
this......yes.......but I still must try because the guilt of not trying would
consume me.
I have never dealt with anyone who had an addiction. And I am no shrink or
professional when it comes to the brain and how it works. She had a passion in
life at one time, her horses, which are now mine. And I must help her find
that passion once again. I must show her by my own actions that life is worth
living. Life looks a whole lot better from the back of a horse. I may be
naieve but I am determined that I must give this my best shot, even if it means
she will hate me for it.'
She hasn't had a drink since she came home; with no vehicle and no money and no
access to alcohol she cannot drink. Granted, this is temporary, but the real
test will come if she ever moves out on her own again. First she must get
better physically and then we can start the mental recovery and the physical
part is going to take many months. She is manipulative and attempts to lie and
make excuses but she forgets I am the mother of a teenager and I know ALL the
tricks!
Two hard steps have been taken, getting her home and getting her moved (all her
stuff) from where she lived.
I thank you for your words, have printed out your post and shall keep it to
remind me that I am not God and that I cannot run her life and I cannot decide
for her which road to take!
Bethe Blasienz
>I know that keeping her home, and isolated seems
>the perfect solution, but she knows you all as
>well as you think you know her. She will say
>what you want to hear, but will not really think
>it applies to her. She will lead you down a
>merry road, bs'ing you all the way until she
>gets her first chance to break out, and break
>out she will.
Oh yes, this has been widely discussed and she always says what she thinks we
want to hear; very typical behavior from her ever since she was a child. The
BS comes out in spades, but what she doesn't realize is just how on to her I
am. She tries really hard to make me believe her, but I have no trust for her.
She lies just as well as my teenager does.
>I know that finances are a consideration here,
>but please consider looking into some sort of
>treatment center options to present to her.
We already have and they all require voluntary committement, which is something
she is not willing to do right now. Finances are not an issue.
>You cannot make her go, but you can present
>her options to her in a clear manner.
We have.
>She
>most probably will not recover without any
>professional intervention.
Exactly.
>But, in my experiences, both
>good and bad, with treatment centers - at
>least there is a shot at facing up to reality.
I am all for inpatient rehab.......she isn't. At least not yet.
>Also, you cannot "go" to AA meetings with
>her...you can drive her there, but most
>meetings are closed, for good reason.
There are some in our area that are not closed. Those are the ones we will be
attending. I cannot trust her to remain inside even if I watch the doors.
>Sometimes hearing the facts from strangers
>has more impact that those same facts from
>the mouths of our loved ones. And, strangers
>who have been there are less likely to
>accept bs and excuses. They really have
>seen/heard it all.
She has been seeing a shrink where she lived, he did NOTHING for her.....in
fact, he enabled her to do what she was doing. She was his cash cow. He
allowed her to counsel his other clients, grief counseling for those who had
lost their pets......how unethical and unprofessional, but he told her what she
wanted to hear.
Bethe Blasienz
>On more than one occasion,
>alcohol has brought me to the point of thinking about committing
>suicide by either overdosing on ad's, crashing my car or slashing my
>wrists for example.
And she has done this, twice......slit her wrists.
>I hope that your sister will soon be at the place where all alcoholics
>must be before they can start to recover from their alcoholism.
We do too, we have hope and remain faithful somehow this will all work out.
>That
>place is where they decide that they no longer want the kind of life
>that alcohol gives them and still want to go on living. From there,
>it is possible to learn how to "live life to the full" (as you've
>said).
All I can do is provide the avenues with which to live life to the fullest, if
she chooses to accept those avenues, so be it, if she doesn't, then that will
be her choice and I will live with that choice.
I believe everyone should have a passion in life........biking, drawing,
whatever.........something that keeps them sane and on the straight and narrow,
for me it is my farm and my horses......I find my own self worth without
insisting others provide it for me by ego stroking. I find my own happiness
without others giving it to me. It was a long hard road for me to get to this
place where I am in my own life. I blamed everything and everyone else for my
failures........I found excuses for my behaviours, but once I figured out I was
the only person who could fix me.......well, the burdens lifted and life is so
much better! :-)
Kai2
>
> Alas, I know this only too well! But I refuse to sit idly by and do nothing; I
> cannot go to her funeral and sit there knowing I didn't try.
>
I hear you.
>
> Right, it is her choice to make, not mine. I, though, feel I must provide the
> avenues for her to recover. I must at least show her the roads and leave it up
> to her to travel down them.
Exactly, but what you say next is always the crux of the problem for
me.
I had to learn that surrender is not the same as giving up.
> If she chooses not to recover, then that will be her decision to make and there
> is nothing I or anyone else can do. Have I come to grips with
> this......yes.......but I still must try because the guilt of not trying would
> consume me.
Good for you. This was a very difficult lesson for me to learn,
probably the
hardest. As much as I realize in my head that there is actually no
guilt
that I should bear, my heart always said otherwise. The battle was
ongoing.
> I have never dealt with anyone who had an addiction. And I am no shrink or
> professional when it comes to the brain and how it works. She had a passion in
> life at one time, her horses, which are now mine. And I must help her find
> that passion once again. I must show her by my own actions that life is worth
> living. Life looks a whole lot better from the back of a horse. I may be
> naieve but I am determined that I must give this my best shot, even if it means
> she will hate me for it.'
>
Neither had I. I know far more about it now than I ever wanted or
imagined
that I would. I did finally arrive at living by example, but discovered
to
my surprise that the life I was saving was really my own. My situation
is a
little different than yours, as my alcoholic is my husband, but love and
family are the same, basically. My husband refused to acknowledge his
passion
for his career, and the sheer numbers of people who loved and respected
him
not only personally, but professionally as well. The outpouring of love
in the
form of cards and letters, gifts, phone calls etc. I received on his
behalf was
overwhelming to me. I am talking grocery sacks full. I actually cried
when I
was packing them up to take to him. Cried for the love that he couldn't
see
or accept. This continued for the entire 4 months he was away. Not a
week
passed without at least 3 cards arriving.
> The
> BS comes out in spades, but what she doesn't realize is just how on to her I
> am. She tries really hard to make me believe her, but I have no trust for her.
> She lies just as well as my teenager does.
I think they call this magical thinking, lying in the face of actual
physical
evidence. It never failed to astonish me. I could set the bottle on
the dining
room table and it "never" existed. I refused to play along and pretend
that
it belonged to someone else, was from long ago and forgotten about,
where did
that come from ??? etc etc etc. For awhile it was important to my
sanity that
he realize (maybe/maybe not) that all the tricks and lying were not
fooling
me any longer, and I was actually not the idiot he seemed to think I
was. It
was a phase I went through. He was very good, and of course, I wanted
to
believe him in the beginning. But, that would be my "magical" thinking
at work.
> She has been seeing a shrink where she lived, he did NOTHING for her.
I hope that you will have better luck with this in the future. As in
any field
there are good and bad, caring and indifferent. I have met some really
excellent
counselors over the years, some that my husband really clicked with and
made a
difference. Their effect seems to have been cumulative, and
fortunately, the
words of the good ones seem to have stuck with him over the years.
After his
relapse, he told me that his current counselor reminded him of his
first, the
man who helped him stay sober for over 16 years. I took that as a very
good
sign.
Good luck to you, feel free to email if you wish.
Kai2
Julie
honor as far as I'm concerned. AA has given me a life and i'm grateful for
it. I have made coffee, cleaned toilets, mopped the meeting place floor,
paint walls, been nominated to be my home groups Intergroup and GSR rep, and
I have never had an attitude of "I've done my time."
Just try to enjoy what you are doing and do it the best *you* can.
Julie
>
> In my original post, I forget to say that the meeting also agreed that
> I should have an assistant. This issue is to be raised at next week's
> meeting. If no-one volunteers to help me, will someone be press ganged
> into service ? :^)
>
>
If you get an assistant it will be because someone whats to help.
Julie
> All the best
>
> JB
>
>
>
>
Blue Moon
>In my original post, I forget to say that the meeting also agreed that
>I should have an assistant. This issue is to be raised at next week's
>meeting. If no-one volunteers to help me, will someone be press ganged
>into service ? :^)
That depends on the group. However, someone pushed into doing service
they don't want to do can turn out to be more a hindrance than a help.
How big is the group? And in what way is assistance needed? The GSR
is responsible for ensuring jobs get done, so you could get him/her to
do the job until a replacement can be found.
The tea commitment is one of those things where there always seems to
be someone available, should the regular person be ill or go on
holiday, for example.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
>>How do I tell you this, gently. You cannot save her through sheer force
>>of will.
>
>Alas, I know this only too well! But I refuse to sit idly by and do nothing; I
>cannot go to her funeral and sit there knowing I didn't try.
You are trying to force your will on another human being. That fact
that you are doing it for YOUR conscience is no excuse. This bears
remarkable resemblance to the mentality of Catholics in the
not-too-distant past who tried to force their will on weaker others
(such as children) to salve their consciences.
My dad took this approach with my mother. After having the booze
removed, she tried other stuff instead - stuff that landed her up in
the back of an ambulance, and then in a locked ward where she's been
ever since. And, quite frankly, she's better off there than at home.
>I know ALL the tricks!
Hardly.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
>>From: "JB" JBC...@coldman.com
>
>>On more than one occasion,
>>alcohol has brought me to the point of thinking about committing
>>suicide by either overdosing on ad's, crashing my car or slashing my
>>wrists for example.
>
>And she has done this, twice......slit her wrists.
Hardly surprising, if she's alcoholic and you insist on locking her
away in the hell of having no booze and nothing to replace the effect.
>>That
>>place is where they decide that they no longer want the kind of life
>>that alcohol gives them and still want to go on living. From there,
>>it is possible to learn how to "live life to the full" (as you've
>>said).
>
>All I can do is provide the avenues with which to live life to the fullest, if
>she chooses to accept those avenues, so be it, if she doesn't, then that will
>be her choice and I will live with that choice.
So when do you propose to even start accepting her choices, let alone
living with them?
--
Blue Moon
JB
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:12:45 -0000, "JB" <JBC...@coldman.com>
wrote:
>
> >In my original post, I forget to say that the meeting also agreed
that
> >I should have an assistant. This issue is to be raised at next
week's
> >meeting. If no-one volunteers to help me, will someone be press
ganged
> >into service ? :^)
>
> That depends on the group. However, someone pushed into doing
service
> they don't want to do can turn out to be more a hindrance than a
help.
>
> How big is the group? And in what way is assistance needed? The
GSR
> is responsible for ensuring jobs get done, so you could get him/her
to
> do the job until a replacement can be found.
Blue,
FWIW, I don't think that I'm going to benefit from spending time this
week fretting about any discussion about the teas that might take
place at next week's AA meeting.
(smiling)
I'm thinking that what I've said suggests that I've handed over this
situation to my HP to deal with.as he/she/it sees fit. I know this to
be true :^)
All the best.
JB.
Ron
> I think they call this magical thinking, lying in the face of actual
> physical evidence. It never failed to astonish me. I could set the
> bottle on the dining room table and it "never" existed.
My wife took all the wine and beer and gin bottles out of the recycle
bins and lined them up on my workbench before I went to the dump one
day. She made some silly arithmetic error about how much it amounted
to each day, and I turned that into "See, you're always exaggerating!
You just like being a drama queen!" yada yada yada... This, of course,
despite the fact that the whole workbench was covered with empties..
Truth is, it didn't look like a problem to me. It looked like I had a
lot of fun that week, and I was mad she was ruining it.
After that I started hiding it so I wouldn't have to deal with the
dramatic confrontations. My MO was to not hide *all* of it. I'd put a
six pack in the fridge upstairs, and some wine (for my wife of course
because I'm so nice *cough*), and squirrel away more beer and a couple
of hip flasks downstairs.
After the six pack was gone, my wife would sometimes start saying I had
a drinking problem, because drinking six beers in one night was
excessive...
"Magical thinking" is right.
Glad you're here.
--
AB5DB9CC
Alana Morgan
never be ups and downs, that, to a point, that life will be "smooth sailing"
I'll be on my way to get a pint with the first difficulty - I'd rather take
the honesty and the reality in hand so that when those difficulties do come
they don't pull the rug out from under me like they used to -
Keep sharing, JB!
Alana
----------
In article <c3a9b9$tl6$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "JB" <JBC...@coldman.com>
wrote:
Kai2
>
> My wife took all the wine and beer and gin bottles out of the recycle
> bins and lined them up on my workbench before I went to the dump one
> day. She made some silly arithmetic error about how much it amounted
> to each day, and I turned that into "See, you're always exaggerating!
> You just like being a drama queen!" yada yada yada... This, of course,
> despite the fact that the whole workbench was covered with empties..
>
> Truth is, it didn't look like a problem to me. It looked like I had a
> lot of fun that week, and I was mad she was ruining it.
>
> After that I started hiding it so I wouldn't have to deal with the
> dramatic confrontations. My MO was to not hide *all* of it. I'd put a
> six pack in the fridge upstairs, and some wine (for my wife of course
> because I'm so nice *cough*), and squirrel away more beer and a couple
> of hip flasks downstairs.
>
> After the six pack was gone, my wife would sometimes start saying I had
> a drinking problem, because drinking six beers in one night was
> excessive...
>
> "Magical thinking" is right.
>
> Glad you're here.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC
Man, the things we'll do to play the game. I used to actually spend
time thinking of the possible hiding places, and if I was in the mood,
actually checking them out. My husband has told me that I actually
found some of them even before he thought of them.
The picture of your workbench made me laugh out loud. Perhaps your
wife and I were separated at birth. My husband also never thought
of it as a problem, after all who was he hurting? According to
him, only himself, and it was nobody else's problem.
The last time I checked a bottle, my evil twin took over and I moved
it. It was still out of sight, but 2 feet away from its original
location. Actually, that was the trigger event that set everything
in motion, and led to our first real confrontation. I never said
I didn't "know" where it was, I kept repeating that I didn't "care"
where it was, and "if" I knew, I wouldn't help him look for it
anyways. Ah, semantics.
I'm glad I'm here too, thanks.
Kai2
neuro equipoise
>> bg...@ccm.tdsnet.com (Kai2) wrote:
>> I think they call this magical thinking, lying in the
>> face of actual physical evidence. It never failed
>> to astonish me.
> On - Sat, Mar 20, 2004, 4:23am (EST+5)
> c...@the.spam (Ron) wrote:
> "Magical thinking" is right.
This 'magical' thinking belongs to the oldest part of the brain, - the
ritualistic, hoarding, impulsive, territorial, preverbal "reptilian
brain", the one in charge of addiction and cravings and dominance.
"Emotional Intelligence And Addiction: Ten Key Points"
By Susan Dunn
Article Date: 2003-07-23
"Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space lies our
freedom and power to choose our response. In our response lies our
growth and freedom." -- Victor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning
Emotional Intelligence creates or extends that space between stimulus
and response, which ultimately disappears for the addict. No one has
less freedom than an addict.
According the leading addiction researcher at Harvard, George Vaillant,
M.D., the reptilian brain is the seat of addiction. Anything going on in
this brain is uber-powerful because it pertains to survival. It is also
automatic, outside our control, and sometimes said to be unconscious.
"The best intentions in the world don't help you with addiction" says
Vaillant.
"Will power is not a prognostic factor in recovery. Addiction resides in
what is often referred to as our reptilian brain, and-well, alligators
don't come when they're called."
http://www.activepro.com/activepro-38-20030723EmotionalIntelligenceandAddictionTenKeyPoints.html
rosie
> If I start thinking that life will be perfect without booze-that
there will
> never be ups and downs, that, to a point, that life will be
"smooth sailing"
another wise thing i learned in early sobriety, and RE-LEARN
regularly, is that life is just that LIFE.
i needed recovery, because of MY REACTIONS to my life.
i was a very insecure women, and after much hurt, self pity, and
fear, i became a HATEFUL, SARCASTIC excuse for a human, relieved
ONLY by drinking/drugging.
what needed to change was ME and MY responses to life!
rosie
> Ron wrote:
> >
>
> > My wife took all the wine and beer and gin bottles out of the
recycle
> > bins and lined them up on my workbench before I went to the dump
one
> > day. She made some silly arithmetic error about how much it
amounted
> > to each day, and I turned that into "See, you're always
exaggerating!
> > You just like being a drama queen!" yada yada yada...
oy vey!
we truly ARE all made from a similar mold, and every time an alkie
shares stuff like that , the fact is reinforced for me!
thanks for sharing that ron!
have a wonderful saturday!
Robert McGregor
" rosie" <readandpo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UKY6c.61192$QP.2...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.4...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,
>but i don't expect
>everyone to do so, just because i did!
From: "rosie@readandpost" <reada...@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <l%Rl5.19132$E05.3...@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net>
>actually, i would have to say that i have had GOOD long term
experience with
>the treatment of my depression over the past 13yrs.
>i have however had to take several different meds as each once
finally
>"wears out" and i need to change.
"rosie@readandpost" wrote in Message
<uoCc6.24059$Af.6...@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>
>if there is a "better" antidepressant out there, i sure would like to
read
>about it!
rosie
"Kai2" <bg...@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:405C46EE...@ccm.tdsnet.com...
> Man, the things we'll do to play the game. I used to actually
spend
> time thinking of the possible hiding places, and if I was in the
mood,
> actually checking them out. My husband has told me that I
actually
> found some of them even before he thought of them.
>
>
kai,
are you an alcoholic?
Kai2
>
>
> kai,
> are you an alcoholic?
No. But I have lived with them my whole
life. Why do you ask?
Just curious,
Kai2
rosie
i have confused you with the other KAI, and it was only this post
that indicated to me that you were not an alkie, and you were not a
man!
:)
do you attend ALANON?
Kai2
>
>
> i have confused you with the other KAI, and it was only this post
> that indicated to me that you were not an alkie, and you were not a
> man!
> :)
>
> do you attend ALANON?
Zikes. That's why I added the "2" after my first initial posts, in
deference to the original. I thought I was pretty clear about who
I am when I first began posting.
I have attended, in the past. I have found individual counseling
to be more helpful to me at the current time.
Kai2
Kai R
> rosie wrote:
>
>>
>>i have confused you with the other KAI, and it was only this post
>>that indicated to me that you were not an alkie, and you were not a
>>man!
>>:)
>>
>>do you attend ALANON?
>
>
>
> Zikes. That's why I added the "2" after my first initial posts, in
> deference to the original. I thought I was pretty clear about who
> I am when I first began posting.
>
You were very clear about it, Kai. I've had no trouble following which
one you are.
Kai
rosie
early senility?
"Kai2" <bg...@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:405C605F...@ccm.tdsnet.com...
JB
"Kai R" <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com> wrote in message
news:c3hnl3$5l8$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
(vbg) Me neither. It seems to me that Rosie has done to Kai 2 what
she often does when she makes a mistake, ie: claim it's not her fault
:^)
JB
Kai2
I've had no trouble following which
> one you are.
>
> Kai
Good one!
Kai2
rosie
>>It seems to me that Rosie has done to Kai 2 what
> >she often does when she makes a mistake, ie: claim it's not her
fault
> >:^)
>
>
>
ROTFLMAO!
i missed it..........did i blame my senility of someone else?
ROTFLMAO!
rosie
<Bob W.> wrote in message
news:14e73838ca7f86dd...@news.teranews.com...
>
> Why don't you and Robert get a room and stop obsessing over Rosie.
>
>
that's not going to happen LOL!
it seems that being BITCHY, GROUCHY and OBSESSED is a step in their
programs!
:)
JB
If I've made a mistake, (grin), it's on account of me being human :^)
JB
God don't make no mistakes. That's how He got to be God."
-- Archie Bunker