Consumers' privacy concerns not backed by their actions

[Anonymous]

<https://betanews.com/2018/05/31/consumer-privacy-concerns/>

When it comes to android apps, just get a firewall and block the apps
wifi and cell access. I personally use NoRoot Firewall

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=app.greyshirts.firewall

You can easily block each app individually. The only thing is, you
have stop the firewall to download something from the google store or
use a browser. Then just restart it.

[tom]

I have been using AFWall+. It requires root and uses the Kernel's built
in IPtables. Their is an open source version. Also, shit's really SNAFU
when it comes to mobile phone operating systems. Maybe the LibRem5 will
fix this but till then, use a third party Android distro not Google's
variant. I am using LineageOS. It works pretty well but if my phone was
compatible with Replicant OS i would use that. Next upgrade maybe.

Don't use the Google Play Store. You don't even need it. Thanks to the
F-DROID project https://f-droid.org you can have an open source app
store. My fav apps on f-droid are OSMand+ which is a replacement for
Google's maps which even works offline via snapshots of the
OpenStreetMap database. OrBot is also pretty useful so your email
client or whatever else isn't leaking where to are all the time via IP
tracking. If you really need Google pLay store apps there's a app called
Yalp Store on f-droid. it's against Google's TOS but fuck Google
anyways. It finds the real link for the APK from the Play Store and
downloads it directly, however most apps on Google Play are proprietary
therefore can not be audited for shady shit and rely on something
called Google Play services. It's some kind of bot the constantly
maintains connections to google servers installed by default on
Google's variant of Android.

For music i really like Transistor. It's a really basic streaming app
that you simply give an IceCast stream URL and it plays it. There is
and Power Ampache which connects to a remote Ampache server. If you
don't know Apache is basically a self-hosted Spotify for your own
music. It integrates well within NextCloud.

andOTP is great if you need a 2FA app. It even integrates with Guardian
Project's Ripple app.

DavDroid is pretty good for syncing your contacts and calendar with
self-hosted solutions like NextCoud.


--
___________________________________
/ "... an experienced, industrious, \
| ambitious, and often quite often |
| picturesque liar." |
| |
\ -- Mark Twain /
-----------------------------------
\
\
/\ /\
//\\_//\\ ____
\_ _/ / /
/ * * \ /^^^]
\_\O/_/ [ ]
/ \_ [ /
\ \_ / /
[ [ / \/ _/
_[ [ \ /_/

[Nomen Nescio]

In article <pepeoq$evv$1...@news.mixmin.net>

Anonymous <anon...@anonymous.com> wrote:
>
> <https://betanews.com/2018/05/31/consumer-privacy-concerns/>
>
> When it comes to android apps, just get a firewall and block the apps
> wifi and cell access. I personally use NoRoot Firewall

Why not do it correctly and just remove the appropriate app
permissions...?

> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=app.greyshirts.firewall
>
> You can easily block each app individually. The only thing is, you
> have stop the firewall to download something from the google store or
> use a browser. Then just restart it.

Riiight. That's linux thinking right there. Don't fix it -
block it and screw up everything while wasting CPU cycles and
battery.

SMH.

[Anonymous]

tom explained on 5/31/2018 :

Most phones are not rooted.

[Doomsdrzej]

Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a monthly
basis.

[chrisv]

Doomsdrzej wrote:

>Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
>get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a monthly
>basis.

As regular as the moon changing phases, "Slimer" is back to anti-Linux
trolling.

--
"But I keep hearing how MS has the power to completely prevent OEMs
from sending out Linux." - some thing, lying shamelessly (but no one
can quote it lying)

[Anonymous]

Doomsdrzej explained :

Patently ridiculous statement. He obviously doesn't even have a
driver's license. You have to have a Class A driver's license anyway
to drive heavy wehicles over 10.5 tons. He has apparenyly at one time
tried to drive a Linux, but couldn't even get it into first gear. He
filled the fuel tanks with gasoline also, not knowing it runs on
diesel. This caused him to immediately give up on Linux and crawl
back to Windows.

[ooze]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 08:23:54 -0500, chrisv <chr...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>Doomsdrzej wrote:
>
>>Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
>>get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a monthly
>>basis.
>
>As regular as the moon changing phases, "Slimer" is back to anti-Linux
>trolling.

The only way that I could disregard Linux's constant need for
maintenance because of dependency issues or poorly-applied updates is
if I consumed the steady supply of delusion its developers have been
feeding you since 1991. Whether you like it or not, it's not perfect
and will likely never be perfect since many of its developers gain
nothing from optimizing, securing or cleaning its code. When they do,
it's mostly just a matter of personal pride.

I'll be honest with you though: I don't like any of the operating
systems on the market more than I do Linux. Windows and Mac OS' lack
of customization bother me as well as their insistence on essentially
slowing down the operating system to help manufacturers sell more
computers and processors. Linux is better in that respect despite the
many bugs but it's the attitude of the people using it that constantly
alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
person who speaks it.

[Snit]

Then they insist it is a lie to note how they attack people not of their
herd.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

<https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>

[Mike Easter]

ooze wrote:
> I'll be honest with you though: I don't like any of the operating
> systems on the market more than I do Linux. Windows and Mac OS' lack
> of customization bother me as well as their insistence on essentially
> slowing down the operating system to help manufacturers sell more
> computers and processors. Linux is better in that respect despite the
> many bugs but it's the attitude of the people using it that constantly
> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
> person who speaks it.

Some people obsess on 'my OS is better than your OS' wars. Personally I
got over that after the Atari ST vs Amiga wars.

Many many people use both Win and linux for one thing and another; and
Chrome OS and/or android for another thing or other.

There is more than one tool in the box.

--
Mike Easter

[nospam]

In article <smf2hdl0hc3k6ljvu...@4ax.com>, Doomsdrzej

<.m@nsn.s> wrote:

> Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
> get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a monthly
> basis.

and with parts not sold in stores, so you have to make them yourself or
try to retrofit something intended for another vehicle.

[Snit]

Exactly. I use macOS, Linux, and Windows. I use Android and iOS.

Use what you like.

[oOze]

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 08:16:07 -0700, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid>
wrote:

Exactly. As a teacher in a private school which decided to use
AppleTVs to stream content from an iPad in every classroom, I'm
obligated to use a platform which allows for that streaming to occur.
Since Apple created their own standard, Linux obviously doesn't have
anything available with which to stream my desktop or its documents to
the AppleTV since I choose not to use their iPad. Windows has one
called AirParrot which enables me to do my work so I'm using Windows.
It also has Blu-Ray playback software if I choose to play a movie and
decent applications for every other task. This doesn't mean that Linux
is bad, but it lacks in third-party software which enhances the
functionality of the operating system itself. Win for Windows there.

Of course, that doesn't make Windows better; it simply makes Windows
better for me in that one specific area. If I had to choose between
the three and my workplace were ready to adapt to my decisions, Linux
would likely be the first choice. However, I'm just an employee and as
such have to adapt myself to _them_. Windows allows me a degree of
freedom (not to use the iPad) all the while adapting to the context
(using the AppleTV). Linux offers me no freedom in that specific
respect.

However, I stand by what I said about Linux: it is my favourite
operating system but the great amount of delusion it seems to foster
in its users doesn't affect me. It is flawed, buggy and the flawed,
buggy personalities of its users don't help in advocating its use with
new users.

[oOze]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:21:04 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

Well said. Linux is definitely a programmer's paradise the same way
that an American car is perfect for anyone who likes to make
modifications to whatever they purchase. However, nobody is dumb
enough to claim that an American car is superior to something made in
Germany and it is fairly foolish to claim that the overall Linux
experience is superior to the one provided by Apple or Microsoft.
Linux undoubtedly has an advantage when it comes to filesystems,
standards compliance, openness and performance on modest hardware but
a lot of that doesn't matter a lick to the general user.

[Your Friendly Neighbourhood Puppy Whistle Holder Emeritus 🐶笛]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:21:04 -0400, LO AND BEHOLD; "nospam
<nos...@nospam.invalid>" determined that the following was of great
importance and subsequently decided to freely share it with us in
<010620181121044555%nos...@nospam.invalid>:

so go buy some apple products then.

--
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6B8jGSdLA

"Thanks to muzzies and their apologist-enablers like puppy whistle, this
seems to be the new norm in the world. It's spreading like a cancer,
and it's time we admit we're at war with pure evil. We need to put an
end to this muzzie plague, or life on Earth is going to become pure hell
everywhere. We need to get these people out of every civilized
country, and there's only one way to do it. IOW, we have to become
like them, with an emphasis on expediency over cruelty." - Checkmate (of alt.checkmate)

"Pussy Willow has just proven that Trump's crackdown on previously
unenforced immigration policies is working. We'll deal with the domestic
terrorists as needed, but we don't need to be letting the muzzie
terrorists get a foothold in our country too. One need only look at what
they're doing in Europe right now to know we're doing the right thing by
keeping them out, which is our right and our duty. - Checkmate (#1 pussy willow fan)

-

"You just made puppy whistle's sig line longer." - Janithor

-

"If I have a complaint about the (Southern Poverty) Law Center's description (of the alt-right movement), it is the phrase "heavy use of social media," which implies the alt-right is a real-world movement which uses a lot of social media. This is backwards: it is an online movement which occasionally appears in the real world. Where it gets punched." - Jason Rhode

-

"I think we should destroy every last fucking mosque in America." - "Checkmate, DoW #1" <Lunatic...@The.Edge> proves for us that white males are violent in Message-ID: <MPG.32c5bfef...@news.altopia.com>

-

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Order of the Holey Sockpuppet, September 2007
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, September 2006
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, April 2008
Tinfoil Sombrero, February 2007
AUK Mascot, September 2007
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[Your Friendly Neighbourhood Puppy Whistle Holder Emeritus 🐶笛]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:38:44 -0400, LO AND BEHOLD; "oOze <.m@nsn.s>"

determined that the following was of great importance and subsequently
decided to freely share it with us in

<v0q2hdlf1a0f51gen...@4ax.com>:

so what's the newest and best german operating system?

[Snit]

Excellent advocacy.

I tend to prefer macOS for my primary desktop use, BUT I use Linux in
many other ways. Right now, for example, I have an old TV hooked to a
"dead" iMac -- the hard drive dried and it is old enough where it is not
worth replacing (does not help that Apple is so focused on making their
DESKTOPS thin that they make it a pain to do... idiotic in my view).
Instead of tossing the system, or donating it, I have a USB drive with a
Linux distro on it. I can copy movies over to it or watch NetFlix or the
like with it. Works amazingly well, esp. considering it is an older
computer running from a USB Flash drive!

There is no way I could do that with macOS or Windows, of course.

[Snit]

Again, well stated. Good to see REAL advocacy.

[Anonymous]

ooze has brought this to us :

Name the bugs. I have not had a single problem with Debian Linux
for 5 years now.

[Your Friendly Neighbourhood Puppy Whistle Holder Emeritus 🐶笛]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:36:04 -0500, LO AND BEHOLD; "Anonymous
<anon...@anonymous.com>" determined that the following was of great

importance and subsequently decided to freely share it with us in

<persln$llf$1...@news.mixmin.net>:

can't you tell that he wants to talk about his delusions of teh muslim brotherhood hiding behind every lamppost with beheading swords and -not- debian linux?

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-01, ooze <> wrote:
> The only way that I could disregard Linux's constant need for
> maintenance because of dependency issues or poorly-applied updates is
> if I consumed the steady supply of delusion its developers have been
> feeding you since 1991.

I suppose it depends on the use case. I've been using Linux as my primary
desktop and server OS since the late 1990s. Early on there was a lot of
manual setup and maintenance needed but for a long time now it's pretty
much "just worked" for me.

Doesn't mean it will "just work" for you or anyone else of course. For
example, I have no need of any of the Microsoft Office programs. I've
been working in the computer industry for over 40 years and have yet
to use Word or Excel for anything. They're just not on my radar. (It
also depends on what you are accustomed to working with. For me Linux
is a natural because I've been working with various Unix and Unix-like
systems since the 1970s.)

The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
hardware and application support.

All current OSes suck, some just suck more or less at particular tasks.
If I had my way I'd prefer to be on TOPS-20.

> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
> person who speaks it.

Well, I do believe that I should be permitted to behead anyone who
annoys me but that is not tied to any particular OS. :)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Char Jackson]

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 08:16:07 -0700, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid>
wrote:

>Some people obsess on 'my OS is better than your OS' wars. Personally I
>got over that after the Atari ST vs Amiga wars.

Same here. Amiga won. Right? ;-)

[nospam]

In article <2018060...@news.eternal-september.org>, Roger Blake

<rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:

> The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
> hardware and application support.

no it definitely does not.

most hardware vendors don't bother writing linux drivers. the market is
much too small to be worth the resources needed.

most software developers don't bother writing a linux version. the
market much is too small to be worth the resources needed.

lately, the focus is ios and android. there may not even be a mac or
windows version, never mind linux.

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 11:02 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2018-06-01, ooze <> wrote:
>> The only way that I could disregard Linux's constant need for
>> maintenance because of dependency issues or poorly-applied updates is
>> if I consumed the steady supply of delusion its developers have been
>> feeding you since 1991.
>
> I suppose it depends on the use case. I've been using Linux as my primary
> desktop and server OS since the late 1990s. Early on there was a lot of
> manual setup and maintenance needed but for a long time now it's pretty
> much "just worked" for me.

Which is great -- and it does for many. Curious: what type work do you
do with it?

I might be more willing to move to Linux if I was, for example, a
programmer. I do a fair amount of work with images and videos (mostly
screencasting and other educational videos). For the work I do Linux is
not as good of a fit.

> Doesn't mean it will "just work" for you or anyone else of course. For
> example, I have no need of any of the Microsoft Office programs. I've
> been working in the computer industry for over 40 years and have yet
> to use Word or Excel for anything. They're just not on my radar. (It
> also depends on what you are accustomed to working with. For me Linux
> is a natural because I've been working with various Unix and Unix-like
> systems since the 1970s.)

Sure.

> The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
> hardware and application support.
>
> All current OSes suck, some just suck more or less at particular tasks.
> If I had my way I'd prefer to be on TOPS-20.
>
>> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
>> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
>> person who speaks it.
>
> Well, I do believe that I should be permitted to behead anyone who
> annoys me but that is not tied to any particular OS. :)
>


--

[oOze]

- Using Nouveau in Debian prevents wake from sleep or returns a screen
with corrupted graphics.

This is where you call me a liar because it works fine for you... blah
blah blah.

[oOze]

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 18:02:38 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake
<rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:

>On 2018-06-01, ooze <> wrote:
>> The only way that I could disregard Linux's constant need for
>> maintenance because of dependency issues or poorly-applied updates is
>> if I consumed the steady supply of delusion its developers have been
>> feeding you since 1991.
>
>I suppose it depends on the use case. I've been using Linux as my primary
>desktop and server OS since the late 1990s. Early on there was a lot of
>manual setup and maintenance needed but for a long time now it's pretty
>much "just worked" for me.
>
>Doesn't mean it will "just work" for you or anyone else of course. For
>example, I have no need of any of the Microsoft Office programs. I've
>been working in the computer industry for over 40 years and have yet
>to use Word or Excel for anything. They're just not on my radar. (It
>also depends on what you are accustomed to working with. For me Linux
>is a natural because I've been working with various Unix and Unix-like
>systems since the 1970s.)
>
>The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
>hardware and application support.
>
>All current OSes suck, some just suck more or less at particular tasks.
>If I had my way I'd prefer to be on TOPS-20.

Very reasonable answer. For sure, I can imagine why someone who is
already used to UNIX and likely developing software regularly would
find Linux appealing. Those people are comfortable with manual
configuration and don't let it affect their appreciation for the
system.

>> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
>> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
>> person who speaks it.
>
>Well, I do believe that I should be permitted to behead anyone who
>annoys me but that is not tied to any particular OS. :)

:)

[oOze]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 13:14:23 -0500, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid>
wrote:

It's a shame that they spent so much time trying to outdo one another
that they never noticed the PC improving and suddenly becoming a more
interesting purchase. Both companies also didn't seem to understand
the desire for upgradeability in continuing to produce mostly closed
packages.

[Snit]

I tend to focus on UI issues. I think Linux offers an amazing
environment for developers and users to play around with different
ideas. There are UI concepts on desktop Linux which you cannot really
get elsewhere: things like having a window with multiple tabs where each
tab can be a different program. With macOS most programs have multiple
tab support (where it makes sense at least) but you cannot mix and match.

Lots of other examples.

[Ant]

In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> On 6/1/18 8:16 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
> > ooze wrote:
> >> I'll be honest with you though: I don't like any of the operating
> >> systems on the market more than I do Linux. Windows and Mac OS' lack
> >> of customization bother me as well as their insistence on essentially
> >> slowing down the operating system to help manufacturers sell more
> >> computers and processors. Linux is better in that respect despite the
> >> many bugs but it's the attitude of the people using it that constantly
> >> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
> >> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
> >> person who speaks it.
> >
> > Some people obsess on 'my OS is better than your OS' wars.  Personally I
> > got over that after the Atari ST vs Amiga wars.
> >
> > Many many people use both Win and linux for one thing and another; and
> > Chrome OS and/or android for another thing or other.
> >
> > There is more than one tool in the box.
> >
> Exactly. I use macOS, Linux, and Windows. I use Android and iOS.

> Use what you like.

Ditto. I like having various because each one has their strong and weak areas.
:) However, I noticed the modern OSes aren't great so I use older ones like
64-bit W7, Debian's old and current stable, etc. since I want stability due to
privacy, bugs, design issues, etc. :(
--
Quote of the Week: "Really. And do these lions eat ants?" --John Cleese in Monty Python's Flying Circus
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
| |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link.
\ _ /
( )

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 2:59 PM, Ant wrote:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> On 6/1/18 8:16 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
>>> ooze wrote:
>>>> I'll be honest with you though: I don't like any of the operating
>>>> systems on the market more than I do Linux. Windows and Mac OS' lack
>>>> of customization bother me as well as their insistence on essentially
>>>> slowing down the operating system to help manufacturers sell more
>>>> computers and processors. Linux is better in that respect despite the
>>>> many bugs but it's the attitude of the people using it that constantly
>>>> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
>>>> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
>>>> person who speaks it.
>>>
>>> Some people obsess on 'my OS is better than your OS' wars.  Personally I
>>> got over that after the Atari ST vs Amiga wars.
>>>
>>> Many many people use both Win and linux for one thing and another; and
>>> Chrome OS and/or android for another thing or other.
>>>
>>> There is more than one tool in the box.
>>>
>> Exactly. I use macOS, Linux, and Windows. I use Android and iOS.
>
>> Use what you like.
>
> Ditto. I like having various because each one has their strong and weak areas.

Exactly. And people have different needs and tastes. I have a hard time
understanding the religious devotion many have to an OS or environment.

> :) However, I noticed the modern OSes aren't great so I use older ones like
> 64-bit W7, Debian's old and current stable, etc. since I want stability due to
> privacy, bugs, design issues, etc. :(

While I get the concern for privacy I tend to focus more on ease of use
and like using newer OSs. I suppose that is odd given how I tend to use
older hardware. :)

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-01, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> Which is great -- and it does for many. Curious: what type work do you
> do with it?

I do a lot of system and network management work, mainly with
internet-based servers (web servers, mail servers, etc.). Used to do
software development years ago, but transitioned to sysadmin type work.
In some cases I do build software from source (Makefiles are still
in use, and still look like bursts of line noise inside!), even make
modifications, but I don't get involved in major development projects
any more.

I'm very familiar with the tools available on Linux for doing system
administration and network management tasks, many of which are descendents
of ancient Unix programs. (I can actually use my circa 1981 Unix BSD
4.1 manual as a guide to many of the common programs still in use. In
a lot of cases all that has changed is adding new command-line options.
Scripts I wrote decades ago still work with minor tweaking to accomodate
new versions of utility programs.)

I do some work with Windows servers and workstations as well, which
is why I subscribe to some Windows newsgroups.

> I might be more willing to move to Linux if I was, for example, a
> programmer. I do a fair amount of work with images and videos (mostly
> screencasting and other educational videos). For the work I do Linux is
> not as good of a fit.

As far as I know there are no professional-quality video or photo/graphics
editing tools for Linux that you can buy. So Windows or OS-X are going
to be the best platforms for that. The GIMP is good enough for my own
minimal photo editing needs, the simple Openshot editor for video. On the
other hand, ffmpeg is like a Swiss army knife for doing media conversion,
and is even used under the hood by a lot of Windows-based conversion
software.

[Peter Köhlmann]

nospam wrote:

> In article <2018060...@news.eternal-september.org>, Roger Blake
> <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
>> hardware and application support.
>
> no it definitely does not.

Just don't bother to tell us that you can't read. Because that is way beyond
your capabilities

[Melzzzzz]

On 2018-06-01, Peter Köhlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>> In article <2018060...@news.eternal-september.org>, Roger Blake
>> <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
>>> hardware and application support.
>>
>> no it definitely does not.
>
> Just don't bother to tell us that you can't read. Because that is way beyond
> your capabilities

Good luck in booting BSDs on recent hardware ;)
>


--
press any key to continue or any other to quit...

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-01, oOze <> wrote:
> - Using Nouveau in Debian prevents wake from sleep or returns a screen
> with corrupted graphics.

Nouveau sucks, though graphics drivers are such complex beasts that I
give the developers their due for coming up with something that works at
all. (Unless you've worked in software development it's hard to appreciate
just how difficult it is to get these stoopid machines to do anything
useful.)

The proprietary binary Nvidia driver works quite well in most cases but
since it's out-of-tree with the rest of the Linux distriubution there is
always the potential for problems to develop. Best-supported open-source
video for Linux is Intel.

[Peter Köhlmann]

You are talking to "nospam"
In short, you are talking to heated dirt. Dumb beyond any imagination

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 3:18 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2018-06-01, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> Which is great -- and it does for many. Curious: what type work do you
>> do with it?
>
> I do a lot of system and network management work, mainly with
> internet-based servers (web servers, mail servers, etc.). Used to do
> software development years ago, but transitioned to sysadmin type work.
> In some cases I do build software from source (Makefiles are still
> in use, and still look like bursts of line noise inside!), even make
> modifications, but I don't get involved in major development projects
> any more.

Yeah, for that type of work Linux seems an excellent choice (as if I
thought it was not you would immediately jump to GS/OS to please me!)

> I'm very familiar with the tools available on Linux for doing system
> administration and network management tasks, many of which are descendents
> of ancient Unix programs. (I can actually use my circa 1981 Unix BSD
> 4.1 manual as a guide to many of the common programs still in use. In
> a lot of cases all that has changed is adding new command-line options.
> Scripts I wrote decades ago still work with minor tweaking to accomodate
> new versions of utility programs.)
>
> I do some work with Windows servers and workstations as well, which
> is why I subscribe to some Windows newsgroups.
>
>> I might be more willing to move to Linux if I was, for example, a
>> programmer. I do a fair amount of work with images and videos (mostly
>> screencasting and other educational videos). For the work I do Linux is
>> not as good of a fit.
>
> As far as I know there are no professional-quality video or photo/graphics
> editing tools for Linux that you can buy.

Correct. I do not do high end video editing, but the work I do is
benefited greatly by features that do not exist on any software I know
of for Linux (hiding / showing / replacing the mouse pointer, showing
hiding keystrokes, sometimes highlighting windows, etc. -- all in post
processing). Plenty of good screen recording software on Linux, but
because of this limit and my own familiarity with my tools of choice I
generally run Linux in a VM when I record it.

> So Windows or OS-X are going
> to be the best platforms for that. The GIMP is good enough for my own
> minimal photo editing needs, the simple Openshot editor for video.

GIMP would handle a fair amount of my image editing needs but there are
a number of things I do which are better handled by Photoshop.

> On the
> other hand, ffmpeg is like a Swiss army knife for doing media conversion,
> and is even used under the hood by a lot of Windows-based conversion
> software.

And a lot of macOS software, too. I have used multiple GUI wrappers for
it over the years and sometimes even run it in the command line (I am
not a big command line user but recognize it has advantages over the GUI
and use it when it fits my needs).

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-01, Melzzzzz <Melz...@zzzzz.com> wrote:
> Good luck in booting BSDs on recent hardware ;)

It tends to be especially problematical with laptops.

Companies like Intel, Broadcom, Nvidia, AMD, LSI/3Ware, and others
have released Linux drivers for at least some of their hardware; in
some cases providing source code, in other cases not. HP provides
Linux printer drivers, as does Brother and Samsung. In many cases
where no vendor-supplied driver exists, open-source developers have
reverse-engineered drivers with varying levels of success.

[Snit]

Well, a derivation of it does... macOS. :)

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 14:40:22 +0100, Anonymous <anon...@anonymous.com> wrote:

> Doomsdrzej explained :
>> On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 05:53:42 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
>> <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <pepeoq$evv$1...@news.mixmin.net>
>>> Anonymous <anon...@anonymous.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <https://betanews.com/2018/05/31/consumer-privacy-concerns/>
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to android apps, just get a firewall and block the
>>>> apps wifi and cell access. I personally use NoRoot Firewall
>>>
>>> Why not do it correctly and just remove the appropriate app
>>> permissions...?
>>>
>>>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=app.greyshirts.firewall
>>>>
>>>> You can easily block each app individually. The only thing is,
>>>> you have stop the firewall to download something from the google
>>>> store or use a browser. Then just restart it.
>>>
>>> Riiight. That's linux thinking right there. Don't fix it -
>>> block it and screw up everything while wasting CPU cycles and
>>> battery.
>>>
>>> SMH.

>>
>> Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
>> get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a
>> monthly basis.
>

> Patently ridiculous statement. He obviously doesn't even have a
> driver's license. You have to have a Class A driver's license anyway
> to drive heavy wehicles over 10.5 tons. He has apparenyly at one time
> tried to drive a Linux, but couldn't even get it into first gear. He
> filled the fuel tanks with gasoline also, not knowing it runs on
> diesel. This caused him to immediately give up on Linux and crawl
> back to Windows.

What a stupid analogy.

--
I go fishing; I catch nothing. I go to orgies; I catch everything.

[Melzzzzz]

On 2018-06-01, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> On 6/1/18 3:21 PM, Melzzzzz wrote:
>> On 2018-06-01, Peter Köhlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>> nospam wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <2018060...@news.eternal-september.org>, Roger Blake
>>>> <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
>>>>> hardware and application support.
>>>>
>>>> no it definitely does not.
>>>
>>> Just don't bother to tell us that you can't read. Because that is way beyond
>>> your capabilities
>>
>> Good luck in booting BSDs on recent hardware ;)
>
> Well, a derivation of it does... macOS. :)
>

macOS works only on Apple harwdware. No AMD.

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 16:16:07 +0100, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid> wrote:

> ooze wrote:
>> I'll be honest with you though: I don't like any of the operating
>> systems on the market more than I do Linux. Windows and Mac OS' lack
>> of customization bother me as well as their insistence on essentially
>> slowing down the operating system to help manufacturers sell more
>> computers and processors. Linux is better in that respect despite the
>> many bugs but it's the attitude of the people using it that constantly
>> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
>> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
>> person who speaks it.
>
> Some people obsess on 'my OS is better than your OS' wars. Personally I
> got over that after the Atari ST vs Amiga wars.
>
> Many many people use both Win and linux for one thing and another; and
> Chrome OS and/or android for another thing or other.
>
> There is more than one tool in the box.

I'll stick to the one 90% of the population uses. More programs available (no I won't say "apps", those are for phones), more help available, more compatibility with everyone, ....

--
Is it true that DNA stands for the National Dyslexia Association?

[nospam]

In article <c%jQC.273948$Z64.2...@fx36.am4>, Melzzzzz

<Melz...@zzzzz.com> wrote:

> >>
> >> Good luck in booting BSDs on recent hardware ;)
> >
> > Well, a derivation of it does... macOS. :)
>
> macOS works only on Apple harwdware. No AMD.

it works on non-apple hardware, including amd, although requires a
little tweaking.

[nospam]

In article <op.zjyb4...@red.lan>, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

<now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:

>
> I'll stick to the one 90% of the population uses. More programs available

yep

> (no I won't say "apps", those are for phones),

app is short for application, a term that dates back at least to the
80s, probably even earlier

> more help available, more
> compatibility with everyone, ....

yep

[Snit]

Use what you like.

I tend to look at quality of tool for the work I do over the popularity
of it... but sometimes those are the same.

[Snit]

Correct (well, at least in any licenses way!)

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 3:57 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <op.zjyb4...@red.lan>, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
> <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'll stick to the one 90% of the population uses. More programs available
>
> yep
>
>> (no I won't say "apps", those are for phones),
>
> app is short for application, a term that dates back at least to the
> 80s, probably even earlier

Right. It is the term Apple has used since AT LEAST the start of the Mac.

>> more help available, more
>> compatibility with everyone, ....
>
> yep
>

[nospam]

In article <fne1m8...@mid.individual.net>, Snit

<use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> >> I'll stick to the one 90% of the population uses. More programs available
> >
> > yep
> >
> >> (no I won't say "apps", those are for phones),
> >
> > app is short for application, a term that dates back at least to the
> > 80s, probably even earlier
>
> Right. It is the term Apple has used since AT LEAST the start of the Mac.

it wasn't just apple and it did predate the mac.

[Snit]

Fair enough.

[Ant]

In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> On 6/1/18 2:59 PM, Ant wrote:
> > In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> >> On 6/1/18 8:16 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
> >>> ooze wrote:
> >>>> I'll be honest with you though: I don't like any of the operating
> >>>> systems on the market more than I do Linux. Windows and Mac OS' lack
> >>>> of customization bother me as well as their insistence on essentially
> >>>> slowing down the operating system to help manufacturers sell more
> >>>> computers and processors. Linux is better in that respect despite the
> >>>> many bugs but it's the attitude of the people using it that constantly
> >>>> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
> >>>> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
> >>>> person who speaks it.
> >>>
> >>> Some people obsess on 'my OS is better than your OS' wars.  Personally I
> >>> got over that after the Atari ST vs Amiga wars.
> >>>
> >>> Many many people use both Win and linux for one thing and another; and
> >>> Chrome OS and/or android for another thing or other.
> >>>
> >>> There is more than one tool in the box.
> >>>
> >> Exactly. I use macOS, Linux, and Windows. I use Android and iOS.
> >
> >> Use what you like.
> >
> > Ditto. I like having various because each one has their strong and weak areas.

> Exactly. And people have different needs and tastes. I have a hard time
> understanding the religious devotion many have to an OS or environment.

I use Windows more than Mac OS and Linux, but I still use them almost daily.

> > :) However, I noticed the modern OSes aren't great so I use older ones like
> > 64-bit W7, Debian's old and current stable, etc. since I want stability due to
> > privacy, bugs, design issues, etc. :(

> While I get the concern for privacy I tend to focus more on ease of use
> and like using newer OSs. I suppose that is odd given how I tend to use
> older hardware. :)

I also use old hardwares that work fine like two decade old custom built
desktop PCs. It's not just computers too!

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 19:02:38 +0100, Roger Blake <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-06-01, ooze <> wrote:
>> The only way that I could disregard Linux's constant need for
>> maintenance because of dependency issues or poorly-applied updates is
>> if I consumed the steady supply of delusion its developers have been
>> feeding you since 1991.
>
> I suppose it depends on the use case. I've been using Linux as my primary
> desktop and server OS since the late 1990s. Early on there was a lot of
> manual setup and maintenance needed but for a long time now it's pretty
> much "just worked" for me.
>
> Doesn't mean it will "just work" for you or anyone else of course. For
> example, I have no need of any of the Microsoft Office programs. I've
> been working in the computer industry for over 40 years and have yet
> to use Word or Excel for anything. They're just not on my radar. (It
> also depends on what you are accustomed to working with. For me Linux
> is a natural because I've been working with various Unix and Unix-like
> systems since the 1970s.)
>

> The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
> hardware and application support.

Er no. Windows 10 installs on any computer with any hardware and just works.

> All current OSes suck, some just suck more or less at particular tasks.
> If I had my way I'd prefer to be on TOPS-20.

The only thing I can think of that pisses me off about Windows 10 is rebooting without my permission after installing an update, so I simply switched updates off. I install them once a month when I'm not in the middle of several things. Rebooting is not something to be done while I'm asleep!!!

>> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
>> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
>> person who speaks it.
>

> Well, I do believe that I should be permitted to behead anyone who
> annoys me but that is not tied to any particular OS. :)

I agree completely with that statement. If I could get away with it, I'd kill many many people. The day they invent the zat gun like in Stargate, loads of you are going to disappear.

--
What's the best part of sex with a transvestite? Reaching around and pretending it went all the way through.

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

Meanwhile normal people don't want to have to fuck about with stuff to make it work.

--
god said:

"The Divergence of the B Field = 0
The Curl of the E Field + the partial time derivative of the B field = 0
The Divergence of the D field = the charge density
The Curl of the H field - the partial time derivative of the D field = the current density"

and there was light, and he saw that it was good and of constant speed.

[tom]

> Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
> get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a monthly
> basis.

Sounds to me like a distro problem not a kernel problem. What are you
on? Ubuntu? Try a professional distro like Devuan. I personally really
like Gentoo, however you have to know what you are doing to use Gentoo.


--
_______________________________________
< Beam me up, Scotty! It ate my phaser! >
---------------------------------------
\
\
/\ /\
//\\_//\\ ____
\_ _/ / /
/ * * \ /^^^]
\_\O/_/ [ ]
/ \_ [ /
\ \_ / /
[ [ / \/ _/
_[ [ \ /_/

[tom]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 08:40:22 -0500

Anonymous <anon...@anonymous.com> wrote:

> Doomsdrzej explained :
> > On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 05:53:42 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
> > <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <pepeoq$evv$1...@news.mixmin.net>
> >> Anonymous <anon...@anonymous.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> <https://betanews.com/2018/05/31/consumer-privacy-concerns/>
> >>>
> >>> When it comes to android apps, just get a firewall and block
> >>> the apps wifi and cell access. I personally use NoRoot Firewall
> >>
> >> Why not do it correctly and just remove the appropriate app
> >> permissions...?
> >>
> >>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=app.greyshirts.firewall
> >>>
> >>> You can easily block each app individually. The only thing is,
> >>> you have stop the firewall to download something from the google
> >>> store or use a browser. Then just restart it.
> >>
> >> Riiight. That's linux thinking right there. Don't fix it -
> >> block it and screw up everything while wasting CPU cycles and
> >> battery.
> >>
> >> SMH.
> >

> > Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
> > get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a
> > monthly basis.
>

> Patently ridiculous statement. He obviously doesn't even have a
> driver's license. You have to have a Class A driver's license anyway
> to drive heavy wehicles over 10.5 tons. He has apparenyly at one
> time tried to drive a Linux, but couldn't even get it into first
> gear. He filled the fuel tanks with gasoline also, not knowing it
> runs on diesel. This caused him to immediately give up on Linux and
> crawl back to Windows.

Well said

[tom]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 10:12:33 -0400
ooze <.m@nsn.s> wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 08:23:54 -0500, chrisv <chr...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:

>
> >Doomsdrzej wrote:
> >
> >>Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
> >>get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a
> >>monthly basis.
> >

> >As regular as the moon changing phases, "Slimer" is back to
> >anti-Linux trolling.

>
> The only way that I could disregard Linux's constant need for
> maintenance because of dependency issues or poorly-applied updates is
> if I consumed the steady supply of delusion its developers have been

> feeding you since 1991. Whether you like it or not, it's not perfect
> and will likely never be perfect since many of its developers gain
> nothing from optimizing, securing or cleaning its code. When they do,
> it's mostly just a matter of personal pride.

>
> I'll be honest with you though: I don't like any of the operating
> systems on the market more than I do Linux. Windows and Mac OS' lack
> of customization bother me as well as their insistence on essentially
> slowing down the operating system to help manufacturers sell more
> computers and processors. Linux is better in that respect despite the
> many bugs but it's the attitude of the people using it that constantly

> alienates me. You people are like fanatical Muslims in that any word
> critical of your operating system is reason enough to behead the
> person who speaks it.

Ok yeah, those are definitely not Linux issues but distribution issues.
Linux does not have dependency issues because it does not have
dependencies. As well as updates as it does not have an automatic
updater. Those are things provided by the operating system not the
kernel. Switch distros to something like Devuan or Debian if you are
having those problems.

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-02, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
> Er no. Windows 10 installs on any computer with any hardware and just works.

I was comparing BSD driver support to Linux, not Windows - and I have seen
machines where Windows 10 does not have built in drivers for all the hardware.

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-02, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:

> Meanwhile normal people don't want to have to fuck about with stuff to make it work.

Given the number of support calls I get for all the OSes that I deal with
I'd say people who don't want to do that should stick with a typewriter.
(Ever there they keys may jam up sometimes.)

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 6:18 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2018-06-02, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> Meanwhile normal people don't want to have to fuck about with stuff to make it work.
>
> Given the number of support calls I get for all the OSes that I deal with
> I'd say people who don't want to do that should stick with a typewriter.
> (Ever there they keys may jam up sometimes.)
>

When tools are made for the common user they should be made to be as
easy to use as reasonably possible.

[oOze]

I'm surprised Apple hasn't tried to purchase AMD to use them as a
exclusive source of processors for their computers. The fact that they
rely on Intel when they can easily produce their own is kind of
laughable. Besides, it would allow them to bundle a decent GPU with
their offerings for once.

[nospam]

In article <flu3hd9qglgns2aan...@4ax.com>, oOze

<.m@nsn.s> wrote:

>
> I'm surprised Apple hasn't tried to purchase AMD to use them as a
> exclusive source of processors for their computers.

no point in that

> The fact that they
> rely on Intel when they can easily produce their own is kind of
> laughable.

not at all. intel is dominant and makes chips far more suitable for
macs than amd, namely for portables.

they design their own processors ios devices and it's *highly* expected
that they will do the same for macs at some point.

> Besides, it would allow them to bundle a decent GPU with
> their offerings for once.

they have used both amd and nvidia gpus.

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-02, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> When tools are made for the common user they should be made to be as
> easy to use as reasonably possible.

Indeed. Probably the easiest to use PC I've seen for a completely
non-technical end user is an elderly neighbor's senior-oriented system.
(I forget the brand name.) Extremely user-friendly. It runs a Linux
operating system with a user interface customized by the manufacturer.

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 8:14 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2018-06-02, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> When tools are made for the common user they should be made to be as
>> easy to use as reasonably possible.
>
> Indeed. Probably the easiest to use PC I've seen for a completely
> non-technical end user is an elderly neighbor's senior-oriented system.
> (I forget the brand name.) Extremely user-friendly. It runs a Linux
> operating system with a user interface customized by the manufacturer.
>

Would love to see it.

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-02, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> Would love to see it.

A web search on "senior computer" picked it up:

https://www.mywowcomputer.com/

The thing is very overpriced for the hardware you get, but it is
exceptionally simple to use. You're basically paying for the user
interface. Kind of what like Apple does with OS-X, another company
that managed to tame Unix and make it palatable to the average person,
but you need to buy overpriced hardware to run it. (Aside from hacked-up
versions that may run on commodity hardware.)

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 8:39 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2018-06-02, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> Would love to see it.
>
> A web search on "senior computer" picked it up:
>
> https://www.mywowcomputer.com/
>
> The thing is very overpriced for the hardware you get, but it is
> exceptionally simple to use. You're basically paying for the user
> interface. Kind of what like Apple does with OS-X, another company
> that managed to tame Unix and make it palatable to the average person,
> but you need to buy overpriced hardware to run it. (Aside from hacked-up
> versions that may run on commodity hardware.)
>

Would love to see that in action. I spent some time setting up newbies
and seniors with Ubuntu (and later Mint) and it did not go as well as I
had hoped.

Did a quick search for it and found a review:

<https://youtu.be/NWz-QuAhaII>

I can see some things which might be issues -- such as not being able to
install other program -- but overall I think this would be great for a
lot of the people I have worked with.

[nospam]

In article <fneipo...@mid.individual.net>, Snit

<use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

>
> I can see some things which might be issues -- such as not being able to
> install other program -- but overall I think this would be great for a
> lot of the people I have worked with.

get them a chromebook or an ipad.

[nospam]

In article <2018060...@news.eternal-september.org>, Roger Blake
<rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:

> A web search on "senior computer" picked it up:
>
> https://www.mywowcomputer.com/
>
> The thing is very overpriced for the hardware you get, but it is
> exceptionally simple to use. You're basically paying for the user
> interface.

it's also exceptionally dumbed down, however, the target market aren't
power users.

> Kind of what like Apple does with OS-X, another company
> that managed to tame Unix and make it palatable to the average person,
> but you need to buy overpriced hardware to run it.

it's nothing at all like os x, nor is the hardware overpriced.

[Snit]

Have suggested both to people (though I do not know Chrome Books well
and let them know that).

I know the ChromeBook reviews well, but most of the folks I know who
have used them do not like them. Not sure why... I have not worked with
them enough to really say.

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 9:01 PM, nospam wrote:

I was not going to focus on price here. If you look at price comparisons
the Mac usually compares quite well, too... the idea they are overpriced
for what you get (from an OEM) does not hold up well to evidence.

There are some caveats to that: most price comparisons are done shortly
after the Macs come out -- and that is when Apple gets the biggest
benefit in those comparisons. Also: you have less choice to leave things
OUT. If you do not want a IR sensor for a remote you are SOL. It comes
with it and you pay for it anyway (on an iMac).

[nospam]

In article <fnejpb...@mid.individual.net>, Snit

<use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> >>
> >> I can see some things which might be issues -- such as not being able to
> >> install other program -- but overall I think this would be great for a
> >> lot of the people I have worked with.
> >
> > get them a chromebook or an ipad.
> >
> Have suggested both to people (though I do not know Chrome Books well
> and let them know that).
>
> I know the ChromeBook reviews well, but most of the folks I know who
> have used them do not like them. Not sure why... I have not worked with
> them enough to really say.

probably because they aren't familiar with them.

for common tasks (email, word processing, web browsing, etc.), they're
a very good choice. some can even run android apps.

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 9:25 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <fnejpb...@mid.individual.net>, Snit
> <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> I can see some things which might be issues -- such as not being able to
>>>> install other program -- but overall I think this would be great for a
>>>> lot of the people I have worked with.
>>>
>>> get them a chromebook or an ipad.
>>>
>> Have suggested both to people (though I do not know Chrome Books well
>> and let them know that).
>>
>> I know the ChromeBook reviews well, but most of the folks I know who
>> have used them do not like them. Not sure why... I have not worked with
>> them enough to really say.
>
> probably because they aren't familiar with them.

Could be. I know my kids use them at a friend's house and hate them, but
they are used to Macs (and somewhat Windows). They have very little
exposure to Linux other than our "TV" system.

> for common tasks (email, word processing, web browsing, etc.), they're
> a very good choice. some can even run android apps.
>

I have heard that is coming...

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-02, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> I can see some things which might be issues -- such as not being able to
> install other program -- but overall I think this would be great for a
> lot of the people I have worked with.

Yes, the machine is limited, that's one of the ways they keep it simple
and reliable. It's aimed at people who have no concept of what installing
a program even means. Also, you can hook up any kind of printer you want
as long as it's an HP. :) (The machine comes pre-loaded with HP's HLIP
software for Linux.)

Cost is ridiculous when compared to similar-spec commodity hardware,
but as I said what you're paying for is the ease of use for people who
really have no knowledge of computers at all. I find it frustrating
to deal with since it is so locked down. However my elderly neighbor,
who is a WWII veteran to whom a computer seems like something out of
Buck Rogers, loves the thing.

[Snit]

On 6/1/18 9:40 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2018-06-02, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> I can see some things which might be issues -- such as not being able to
>> install other program -- but overall I think this would be great for a
>> lot of the people I have worked with.
>
> Yes, the machine is limited, that's one of the ways they keep it simple
> and reliable. It's aimed at people who have no concept of what installing
> a program even means. Also, you can hook up any kind of printer you want
> as long as it's an HP. :) (The machine comes pre-loaded with HP's HLIP
> software for Linux.)

I get that -- though I fear they may have gone too far for many. Really
want to play with one now though.

> Cost is ridiculous when compared to similar-spec commodity hardware,
> but as I said what you're paying for is the ease of use for people who
> really have no knowledge of computers at all. I find it frustrating
> to deal with since it is so locked down. However my elderly neighbor,
> who is a WWII veteran to whom a computer seems like something out of
> Buck Rogers, loves the thing.

That is the target market I am sure.

[Mike Easter]

Roger Blake wrote:
> Cost is ridiculous when compared to similar-spec commodity hardware,
> but as I said what you're paying for is the ease of use for people who
> really have no knowledge of computers at all. I find it frustrating
> to deal with since it is so locked down. However my elderly neighbor,
> who is a WWII veteran to whom a computer seems like something out of
> Buck Rogers, loves the thing.

Another feature of the WOW which is an all-in-one design 22" touchscreen
(2G ram, 32 G SSD, wireless kb/mouse) is their 'built-in' support
situation. Free lifetime basic support and VIP support at $10/mo, which
basic support is toll free phone, email, and claims to be US based (that
may be the VIP v.) as opposed to a language barrier phone center
somewhere in the world.

The VIP support includes extras and remote access support.

--
Mike Easter

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

I dunno about the US, but in the UK if I get an Indian I just say "I'd like to speak to an English person please" and they put me through to one.

--
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic -- Arthur C Clarke

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 02:18:40 +0100, Roger Blake <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-06-02, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> Meanwhile normal people don't want to have to fuck about with stuff to make it work.
>
> Given the number of support calls I get for all the OSes that I deal with
> I'd say people who don't want to do that should stick with a typewriter.
> (Ever there they keys may jam up sometimes.)

When I used a typewriter, I'd be unjamming it every 5 minutes. A computer tends to fuck up only every 5 weeks.

--
Having swallowed the most amount of semen ever officially recorded Michelle Monaghan had 1.7 pints (0.96 liter) of semen pumped out of her stomach in Los Angeles in July 1991.

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 02:15:44 +0100, Roger Blake <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-06-02, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> Er no. Windows 10 installs on any computer with any hardware and just works.
>
> I was comparing BSD driver support to Linux, not Windows - and I have seen
> machines where Windows 10 does not have built in drivers for all the hardware.

Very rarely does that happen. Even if it does, it's enough to get it working, if not at full speed. Then you just install a batch of motherboard drivers from the manufacturer's website.

--
Every day more money is printed for Monopoly than the US Treasury.

[oOze]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 00:25:52 +0200, Peter Köhlmann
<peter-k...@t-online.de> wrote:

>Melzzzzz wrote:
>
>> On 2018-06-01, Peter Köhlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> wrote:

>>> nospam wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <2018060...@news.eternal-september.org>, Roger Blake
>>>> <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:
>>>>

>>>>> The BSDs have much to recommend them but Linux tends to have better
>>>>> hardware and application support.
>>>>
>>>> no it definitely does not.
>>>
>>> Just don't bother to tell us that you can't read. Because that is way
>>> beyond your capabilities
>>
>> Good luck in booting BSDs on recent hardware ;)
>>>
>>
>

>You are talking to "nospam"
>In short, you are talking to heated dirt. Dumb beyond any imagination

Now that Peter the Klöwn has posted something in reference to "heated
dirt," we can say that alt.comp.os.windows-10 has received his seal of
approval.

[oOze]

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 17:54:26 -0700, tom <t...@0.0.0.0> wrote:

>> Linux, to me, is basically like a used Pontiac which might actually
>> get you from point A to point B, but requires to be fixed on a monthly
>> basis.
>
>Sounds to me like a distro problem not a kernel problem. What are you
>on? Ubuntu? Try a professional distro like Devuan. I personally really
>like Gentoo, however you have to know what you are doing to use Gentoo.

I've tried several distributions and while one might resolve a problem
that only exists in the other, it also comes with its own set of
problems. In the end, Linux is a very worthwhile operating system for
anyone who is looking to put some time into learning it but for anyone
who wants to just get going, chances are that Windows and Mac OS will
do a better job.

However, I have to say this. If a computer user had never used any of
the three operating systems, I'd say that they would find Linux a lot
easier to learn to maintain. It would also be a lot easier to find the
software that you need to do your work in Linux because of the fact
that most distributions come with a decent "store" to find
applications for every need. That's not to say that the software is as
good as what you would find on the Mac or in Windows, but at least a
person looking for a word processor or a PDF reader would be able to
quickly find one if either is not already bundled with the software.
In the case of Windows, a user would need to know to go on the web to
find one and then he'd have to learn to differentiate from malware and
the real deal. In the case of the Mac, chances are that he would find
what he needs in the store, but like in Windows he'd have to learn how
to differentiate between real software and software which is
essentially useless until you pay for it.

For actual maintenance, a new Windows user would have absolutely no
idea how to fix any issue unless it's with Metro apps that allow him
to reset the app. Registries. hidden folders and the like are probably
beyond the comprehension of a new user. Similarly, on the Mac, a user
would probably not have any idea what the heck permissions are and why
they would need to be fixed.

[nospam]

In article <4f65hdpfuncvvach6...@4ax.com>, oOze

<.m@nsn.s> wrote:

> For actual maintenance, a new Windows user would have absolutely no
> idea how to fix any issue unless it's with Metro apps that allow him
> to reset the app. Registries. hidden folders and the like are probably
> beyond the comprehension of a new user.

true.

> Similarly, on the Mac, a user
> would probably not have any idea what the heck permissions are and why
> they would need to be fixed.

not true. permissions don't need to be fixed which is why that can no
longer be done.

[Mike Easter]

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:

> Mike Easter wrote:
>> Roger Blake wrote:
>>> Cost is ridiculous when compared to similar-spec commodity hardware,
>>> but as I said what you're paying for is the ease of use for people who
>>> really have no knowledge of computers at all. I find it frustrating
>>> to deal with since it is so locked down. However my elderly neighbor,
>>> who is a WWII veteran to whom a computer seems like something out of
>>> Buck Rogers, loves the thing.
>>
>> Another feature of the WOW which is an all-in-one design 22" touchscreen
>> (2G ram, 32 G SSD, wireless kb/mouse) is their 'built-in' support
>> situation.  Free lifetime basic support and VIP support at $10/mo, which
>> basic support is toll free phone, email, and claims to be US based (that
>> may be the VIP v.)  as opposed to a language barrier phone center
>> somewhere in the world.
>>
>> The VIP support includes extras and remote access support.
>
> I dunno about the US, but in the UK if I get an Indian I just say "I'd
> like to speak to an English person please" and they put me through to one.
>

The business of being able to provide sufficient quality telephone
support is typically a very costly and difficult undertaking. The
typical scenario is that it is farmed out to call centers somewhere the
support hourly wage is more affordable, such as India or the Philippines.

This target marketed audience of seniors, particularly those who would
choose to buy such a WOW computer, would seem to me to be a particularly
difficult one. "I don't know anything about computers and my faculties
are somewhat impaired as I can't see very well (or hear very well, or
remember very well, or handle a mouse very well)."

It is interesting that the WOW people decided to build their interface
on the Tiny Core Linux base and other open source ware. It seems that
the hardware is very minimal except for what is spent on that 22"
touchscreen, so the dollar distribution would be hardware-wise
principally that monitor touchscreen and then the tech support.

I'm sure they would 'immediately' upgrade the users who needed more
support to the $10/mo VIP (1st 30 d. free VIP), but that is still pretty
cheap price. Being able to give remote support helps a lot, but that
requires functional connectivity and hardware performance. If one of
those weren't operating properly, I think the customer would need some
kind of outside support.

The reviews on Amazon were more negative than positive. There were
worthwhile comments there from IT people who made suggestions about
alternate ways to provide much better hardware, but I didn't find those
suggestions satisfactory about how to achieve a 'foolproof' interface.
There's the nut in this venture.


--
Mike Easter

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:18:45 +0100, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid> wrote:

> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>> Roger Blake wrote:
>>>> Cost is ridiculous when compared to similar-spec commodity hardware,
>>>> but as I said what you're paying for is the ease of use for people who
>>>> really have no knowledge of computers at all. I find it frustrating
>>>> to deal with since it is so locked down. However my elderly neighbor,
>>>> who is a WWII veteran to whom a computer seems like something out of
>>>> Buck Rogers, loves the thing.
>>>
>>> Another feature of the WOW which is an all-in-one design 22" touchscreen
>>> (2G ram, 32 G SSD, wireless kb/mouse) is their 'built-in' support
>>> situation. Free lifetime basic support and VIP support at $10/mo, which
>>> basic support is toll free phone, email, and claims to be US based (that
>>> may be the VIP v.) as opposed to a language barrier phone center
>>> somewhere in the world.
>>>
>>> The VIP support includes extras and remote access support.
>>
>> I dunno about the US, but in the UK if I get an Indian I just say "I'd
>> like to speak to an English person please" and they put me through to one.
>
> The business of being able to provide sufficient quality telephone
> support is typically a very costly and difficult undertaking. The
> typical scenario is that it is farmed out to call centers somewhere the
> support hourly wage is more affordable, such as India or the Philippines.

Which is why minimum wage is a stupid idea, it just means other countries get all our work.

> This target marketed audience of seniors, particularly those who would
> choose to buy such a WOW computer, would seem to me to be a particularly
> difficult one. "I don't know anything about computers and my faculties
> are somewhat impaired as I can't see very well (or hear very well, or
> remember very well, or handle a mouse very well)."
>
> It is interesting that the WOW people decided to build their interface
> on the Tiny Core Linux base and other open source ware. It seems that
> the hardware is very minimal except for what is spent on that 22"
> touchscreen, so the dollar distribution would be hardware-wise
> principally that monitor touchscreen and then the tech support.
>
> I'm sure they would 'immediately' upgrade the users who needed more
> support to the $10/mo VIP (1st 30 d. free VIP), but that is still pretty
> cheap price. Being able to give remote support helps a lot, but that
> requires functional connectivity and hardware performance. If one of
> those weren't operating properly, I think the customer would need some
> kind of outside support.

I was once asked to fax a copy of a receipt to a company when the fax/modem I bought from them wasn't working. He realised his mistake when I burst out laughing.

> The reviews on Amazon were more negative than positive.

You managed to find Amazon's review system? I hate Amazon, it's about 10 times harder to use than Ebay. First annoying thing, the postage ain't shown in the search results. So I can't see who's the cheapest. Amazon, you lose.

> There were
> worthwhile comments there from IT people who made suggestions about
> alternate ways to provide much better hardware, but I didn't find those
> suggestions satisfactory about how to achieve a 'foolproof' interface.
> There's the nut in this venture.

--

Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

[Snit]

While this is true, there are certainly times with ANY complex tool that
general users cannot figure out how to resolve the issue and generally
need to seek assistance from others. The Mac has this to a lesser extent
than Windows, but it does have them. Heck, had a call yesterday from
someone who could not figure out why SOME sounds were coming from their
headphones and other sounds out of the build in speakers. The answer was
a simple setting in their System Preferences. They spoke of having been
in that Preference Pane recently but did not recall setting that as it
was set.

Did it somehow set itself? Unlikely... but the user was completely
baffled and had no idea how to fix their system.

[Snit]

Do you have other ideas to reduce socializing the cost of labor? Right
now, for example, many if not most of Walmart and McDonald's workers get
part of their income from the government -- socializing the cost of
labor for these businesses.

The general reply to this is to respond with microeconomics thinking:
these people should get other work if they want more money, but this
ignores the reality that these are the two largest employers in the
country. Looking at the macroeconomic situation, these corporations and
many others get socialized support for their labor costs.

...

[Mike Easter]

Mike Easter wrote:
> Roger Blake wrote:
>> Cost is ridiculous when compared to similar-spec commodity hardware,
>> but as I said what you're paying for is the ease of use for people who
>> really have no knowledge of computers at all. I find it frustrating
>> to deal with since it is so locked down. However my elderly neighbor,
>> who is a WWII veteran to whom a computer seems like something out of
>> Buck Rogers, loves the thing.
>
> Another feature of the WOW which is an all-in-one design 22" touchscreen
> (2G ram, 32 G SSD, wireless kb/mouse) is their 'built-in' support
> situation.

A competing marketer is Telikin, which has more screen size options on
weak cpu/ram and a laptop which benefits from having 4G ram and is also
'less overpriced' at $800 for 15.6 touchscreen and spinning 500G hdd
instead of small SSD.

It seems that Telikin has been around in some way since 2010 Nov
according wp article.

I wonder exactly who is in charge of developing the interface, since it
seems to be being used by more than one outfit. I believe Venture 3's
Fred Allegrezza has been into this idea longer than WOW.


--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Mike Easter wrote:
> I wonder exactly who is in charge of developing the interface, since it
> seems to be being used by more than one outfit.  I believe Venture 3's
> Fred Allegrezza has been into this idea longer than WOW.

Here's Fred commenting in the Ub forum in 2012 Oct;


Hey Guys,

Telikin was developed on the TinyCore Linux. Our primary goal of using
Linux was to avoid viruses, spyware, and malware. We also chose TinyCore
to have an option of an embedded version in the future. I am not a Linux
expert. Tim, Megan, Adam, Cliff and Carl work on the OS and back office
systems. We also have an application team developing the apps on Java.

We also selected TinyCore to have a platform that was easy for us to
manage updates for the users. Our background was in cable where settop
boxes have a lot of software but it is managed for the end users.

We agree that there are many tech savvy seniors. We built the computer
for those that are not comfortable with computers. About 50% of our
users have never used a copmputer before. We were not targeting tech
savvy seniors. They have Windows and Mac as options.

We decided to include a number of applications so the end users would
not need to load and manage application. In addition we know the apps
and if when a customer calls in we know what they are using. I think of
this more as an application system.

A big part of the business is support. We built in a remote management
service for all computers so we can remotly show our users how to use
applications.

The specs are on the web site.

As a value proposition telikin serves a niche market, included software
applications and great support. We undertand it is not for everyone, but
there are a number of happy users.

Hope this helps.
Fred Allegrezza CEO Telikin.


--
Mike Easter

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

"Benefits from 4G RAM"? WTF? I would never consider building a computer with under 16GB RAM. Current max is 64GB.

--
Said the Duchess of Windsor at tea,
"Young man, do you fart when you pee?"
I replied with some wit
"Do you belch when you shit?"
I think that was one up to me.

[Mike Easter]

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:

>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>>
>>> Another feature of the WOW which is an all-in-one design 22" touchscreen
>>> (2G ram, 32 G SSD, wireless kb/mouse) is their 'built-in' support
>>> situation.

Notice that the WOW and most of the Telikins have 2G ram.

>> A competing marketer is Telikin, which has more screen size options on
>> weak cpu/ram and a laptop which benefits from having 4G ram and is also
>> 'less overpriced' at $800 for 15.6 touchscreen and spinning 500G hdd
>> instead of small SSD.
>

> "Benefits from 4G RAM"?  WTF?  I would never consider building a
> computer with under 16GB RAM. Current max is 64GB.
>

Compared to 2G, 4G is twice as much and a lot more 'elbow room' for a
low resource system.

We are talking about machines running Tiny Core Linux, which starts off
with a 16 meg OS. If one doesn't waste a lot of ram on the interface,
2G is adequate and 4G is 'roomy' :-)

Typically Core Linux interfaces with an efficient window manager such as
Fast Light wm, but it offers others.

16 G in a rig like this would be ridiculous. It would be better to
spend some money on a faster CPU. I have no idea how they are handling
the graphics.


--
Mike Easter

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

So are these things capable of more than what my scientific calculator can do? Because they don't sound like it. My neighbour's smartphone is probably more powerful.

--
Police cordoned off Liverpool City Centre this morning when a suspicious object was discovered in a car.
It later turned out to be a tax disc.

[Frank Slootweg]

Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> On 6/1/18 3:57 PM, nospam wrote:
> > In article <op.zjyb4...@red.lan>, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
> > <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> I'll stick to the one 90% of the population uses. More programs available
> >
> > yep
> >
> >> (no I won't say "apps", those are for phones),
> >
> > app is short for application, a term that dates back at least to the
> > 80s, probably even earlier
>
> Right. It is the term Apple has used since AT LEAST the start of the Mac.

Who cares!? We're talking about the *real* world! (Just kidding!)

FWIW, I only first encountered the term for mobile devices, yes
Apples'. OTOH, 'applet' was known (to me) well before that time.

[Snit]

You only encountered it with mobile devices so you think that means the
term was not used... and more than that want to restrict how others use
the term!

Why?

[Snit]

On 6/2/18 1:19 PM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>> Compared to 2G, 4G is twice as much and a lot more 'elbow room' for a
>> low resource system.
>>
>> We are talking about machines running Tiny Core Linux, which starts off
>> with a 16 meg OS.  If one doesn't waste a lot of ram on the interface,
>> 2G is adequate and 4G is 'roomy' :-)
>>
>> Typically Core Linux interfaces with an efficient window manager such as
>> Fast Light wm, but it offers others.
>>
>> 16 G in a rig like this would be ridiculous.  It would be better to
>> spend some money on a faster CPU.  I have no idea how they are handling
>> the graphics.
>
> So are these things capable of more than what my scientific calculator
> can do?  Because they don't sound like it.  My neighbour's smartphone is
> probably more powerful.

For their user base the may very well be extremely powerful machines,
allowing them to surf the web, play games, edit images, and MUCH more in
a way few other machines can.

The "power" of a system is impacted by its tech specs but there is a LOT
more to it than that. The power is in what the user can do.

These systems, of course, are not designed for those of us who know what
Usenet is, no less use it. :)

[nospam]

In article <fngcqi...@mid.individual.net>, Snit

<use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> >>>> I'll stick to the one 90% of the population uses. More programs
> >>>> available
> >>>
> >>> yep
> >>>
> >>>> (no I won't say "apps", those are for phones),
> >>>
> >>> app is short for application, a term that dates back at least to the
> >>> 80s, probably even earlier
> >>
> >> Right. It is the term Apple has used since AT LEAST the start of the Mac.
> >
> > Who cares!? We're talking about the *real* world! (Just kidding!)
> >
> > FWIW, I only first encountered the term for mobile devices, yes
> > Apples'. OTOH, 'applet' was known (to me) well before that time.
> >
>
> You only encountered it with mobile devices so you think that means the
> term was not used... and more than that want to restrict how others use
> the term!
>
> Why?

<https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/10/14/the-rise-of-the-app/>
But, unlike smartphones and tablets, app isnąt new. According to the
OEDŚs historical entry for the word, app as a shortening of
application (as in application program) first found its way into
print in the 1980s. Back then it was mainly a colloquial term used in
computing circles: the OEDŚs early quotations for it come from such
computing trade publications as Info World and Dr. Dobbąs Journal. It
often appeared not by itself but as part of the phrase killer app,
meaning a software application which makes a new computing platform
desirable or necessary. Later, it became part of webapp, meaning an
application made available as a website, but as a word used on its
own it remained relatively uncommon.

[Snit]

On 6/2/18 1:31 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <fngcqi...@mid.individual.net>, Snit
> <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> I'll stick to the one 90% of the population uses. More programs
>>>>>> available
>>>>>
>>>>> yep
>>>>>
>>>>>> (no I won't say "apps", those are for phones),
>>>>>
>>>>> app is short for application, a term that dates back at least to the
>>>>> 80s, probably even earlier
>>>>
>>>> Right. It is the term Apple has used since AT LEAST the start of the Mac.
>>>
>>> Who cares!? We're talking about the *real* world! (Just kidding!)
>>>
>>> FWIW, I only first encountered the term for mobile devices, yes
>>> Apples'. OTOH, 'applet' was known (to me) well before that time.
>>>
>>
>> You only encountered it with mobile devices so you think that means the
>> term was not used... and more than that want to restrict how others use
>> the term!
>>
>> Why?
>
> <https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/10/14/the-rise-of-the-app/>

> But, unlike smartphones and tablets, app isn¹t new. According to the
> OEDŒs historical entry for the word, app as a shortening of

> application (as in application program) first found its way into
> print in the 1980s. Back then it was mainly a colloquial term used in

> computing circles: the OEDŒs early quotations for it come from such
> computing trade publications as Info World and Dr. Dobb¹s Journal. It

> often appeared not by itself but as part of the phrase killer app,
> meaning a software application which makes a new computing platform
> desirable or necessary. Later, it became part of webapp, meaning an
> application made available as a website, but as a word used on its
> own it remained relatively uncommon.
>

Good to see you found where "application" has been in use for quite some
time in this context. Heck, if you go to 1984 with the Macintosh it was
the primary term used. Since then it has been often shortened to just
"app", much as "Macintosh" itself has been shortened to "Mac".

[nospam]

In article <fngdcv...@mid.individual.net>, Snit
<use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> >
> > <https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/10/14/the-rise-of-the-app/>
> > But, unlike smartphones and tablets, app isn1t new. According to the
> > OED‘s historical entry for the word, app as a shortening of

> > application (as in application program) first found its way into
> > print in the 1980s. Back then it was mainly a colloquial term used in

> > computing circles: the OED‘s early quotations for it come from such
> > computing trade publications as Info World and Dr. Dobb1s Journal. It

> > often appeared not by itself but as part of the phrase killer app,
> > meaning a software application which makes a new computing platform
> > desirable or necessary. Later, it became part of webapp, meaning an
> > application made available as a website, but as a word used on its
> > own it remained relatively uncommon.
> >
>
> Good to see you found where "application" has been in use for quite some
> time in this context. Heck, if you go to 1984 with the Macintosh it was
> the primary term used. Since then it has been often shortened to just
> "app", much as "Macintosh" itself has been shortened to "Mac".

yep. the term has been around for a long time.

well before the mac, in mainframe days, there was system or application
programming, a distinction that still applies today. some people write
kernel code, frameworks, drivers, etc., while others write end user
apps.

[Frank Slootweg]

Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> On 6/2/18 1:20 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> >> On 6/1/18 3:57 PM, nospam wrote:
> >>> In article <op.zjyb4...@red.lan>, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
> >>> <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'll stick to the one 90% of the population uses. More programs available
> >>>
> >>> yep
> >>>
> >>>> (no I won't say "apps", those are for phones),
> >>>
> >>> app is short for application, a term that dates back at least to the
> >>> 80s, probably even earlier
> >>
> >> Right. It is the term Apple has used since AT LEAST the start of the Mac.
> >
> > Who cares!? We're talking about the *real* world! (Just kidding!)
> >
> > FWIW, I only first encountered the term for mobile devices, yes
> > Apples'. OTOH, 'applet' was known (to me) well before that time.
>
> You only encountered it with mobile devices so you think that means the
> term was not used... and more than that want to restrict how others use
> the term!
>
> Why?

First of all, as I said, I was kidding, so easy does it.

Secondly, don't read between the lines and don't put words in my mouth
("you think", "want to restrict").

FWIW, I've been working in the computer industry since the late 60s
and I did not encounter the term 'app' before mobile devices. I think
it was probably mostly an Apple-thing. nospam says that it's not (an
Apple-thing), but as usual he doesn't back up his claims.

Current standing: Two versus two.

(AFAIC,) EOD (of this issue).

[nospam]

In article <pev707...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg

<th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> FWIW, I've been working in the computer industry since the late 60s
> and I did not encounter the term 'app' before mobile devices. I think
> it was probably mostly an Apple-thing. nospam says that it's not (an
> Apple-thing), but as usual he doesn't back up his claims.

as usual, i did.

here it is again:
<https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/10/14/the-rise-of-the-app/>

But, unlike smartphones and tablets, app isnąt new. According to the

OEDŚs historical entry for the word, app as a shortening of

application (as in application program) first found its way into
print in the 1980s. Back then it was mainly a colloquial term used in

computing circles: the OEDŚs early quotations for it come from such
computing trade publications as Info World and Dr. Dobbąs Journal. It

[simon singh]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 20:23:55 -0700, Snit wrote:

> On 6/1/18 8:14 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
>> On 2018-06-02, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

>>> When tools are made for the common user they should be made to be as
>>> easy to use as reasonably possible.
>>
>> Indeed. Probably the easiest to use PC I've seen for a completely
>> non-technical end user is an elderly neighbor's senior-oriented system.
>> (I forget the brand name.) Extremely user-friendly. It runs a Linux
>> operating system with a user interface customized by the manufacturer.
>>
> Would love to see it.

This is how snit fires up his snit circus.
Get ready for your newsgroup to be trashed.
Ask the people in comp.sys.mac.advocacy what happened when snit invaded
their group.

[oOze]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 09:55:18 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

Are you sure about that? It seemed to still be around the last time my
mom had a problem with her Mac.

It might have changed though, I don't really know since I don't use
Macs anymore.

[Snit]

There is no option to do so.

> It might have changed though, I don't really know since I don't use
> Macs anymore.

Fair enough.

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-02, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid> wrote:
> Here's Fred commenting in the Ub forum in 2012 Oct;
>

> ...

Interesting. It's a niche segment of the market I'm really not familiar
with since in general I don't work on home computers. (Though of course
I do get roped into doing so for people I know.) If it weren't for my
neighbor asking me to hook up a printer for him I would probably not
even know about those systems.

I do understand that a big chunk of the high price is for support. I found
the Wow computer support pretty good when I called to find out what kind
of printer could be used. I got through to a real person quickly whose
primary Language was English. As soon as he realized that I grokked Linux
he told me "any printer that works with HPLIP version x.x (whatever it
was)."

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
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Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Roger Blake]

On 2018-06-02, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid> wrote:

> 16 G in a rig like this would be ridiculous. It would be better to
> spend some money on a faster CPU. I have no idea how they are handling
> the graphics.

Since it's Celeron-based, probably low-end Intel graphics. (Most Intel
graphics are well supported in Linux.)

Overall performance seemed to be OK for its intended purpose. For that
matter I have a couple of old Celeron-based netbooks with 2GB memory
and those run OK for light use with Lubuntu. They probably would run even
better with something really lightweight like Tiny Core.