My poly slumber party
serene poetserene at yahoo.com
he didn't like that name, and suggested "Public Enemy #432"--maybe I'll just
call him G) came over last night for a slumber party. This is
cute-poet-chick's gay boyfriend--the one we used as an example during our talks
about poly of how it feels to love two people at once. They're not sexually
involved, but they make out sometimes and feel very romantically about each
other. He and I love each other, too, but in a non-romantic (but still
familial) way.
Anyway, we had such a blast. They have the exact same taste in music (which I
don't share, but I have fun being exposed to new stuff) and completely click on
an artistic level. G just went vegan last week, so I cooked up a mess of
veggie food after we took a fun trip to the grocery store--wine and ice cream
and doritos and pickles and god-knows-what-else--and the three of us listened
to music for a while and then went out to coffee with our couple-friends. We
drove home, and while it was a huge drag getting pulled over because the
taillight was shorted out, we still had a fabulous evening. They got
blissfully drunk and painted each other's toenails; every so often someone
would say "who has the cutest girlfriend?" and we'd all say "we do!" Or, "who
has the cutest boyfriend?" and cute-poet-chick and I would say "we do!"
Then this morning, we sat around eating breakfast and drinking coffee and
talking about how we're a family.
It was great.
serene
--
"They say goldfish have no memory; I guess their lives are much like mine. And
the little plastic castle is a surprise every time." Ani
barbara trumpinski-roberts
>
> -- Sue --
> (now with a side order of compersion to go with my NRE)
^^^^^^^^^^
huh??????
hugs,
kitten
welcome home!
/\ /\ 'your heart is pure, and your mind clear,
{=.=} and your soul devout' fortune cookie 3/6/00
~ kit...@uiuc.edu smotu
http://members.tripod.com/~barbarakitten
Stef Maruch
>Compersion: that happy little glow that you get at seeing one of
>your sweeties being happy in another relationship.
Or some kind of flu that makes your nose all stuffed up.
(Not trying to pick on you, Sue, but I hate the word. I'd love to come
up with a less technical sounding word for the feeling. Something like
"warm fuzzies" only specific to watching OSOs with their loves.)
>That's assuming that you're happy about the other relationship,
>of course, and not having moments of jealousy. Another way to
>put it would be that compersion is sort of anti-jealousy....
I dunno. I've definitely felt the "glow" and the "jealousy" at the same
time.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want. -- Bill Watterson
Josh Jasper
Stef Maruch wrote:
>
> Susan Davis <s...@secant.com> wrote:
>
> >Compersion: that happy little glow that you get at seeing one of
> >your sweeties being happy in another relationship.
>
> Or some kind of flu that makes your nose all stuffed up.
>
Oh, that's what I've got. Along with the sweats/chills at alternate
times, and a body ache that won't quit.
--
If we shadows have offended, think but this, and all is mended, That
you have but slumber'd here while these visions did appear. And
this weak and idle theme, No more yielding but a dream, Gentles, do
not reprehend: if you pardon, we will mend.
astral alice
>
> Susan Davis <s...@secant.com> wrote:
>
> >Compersion: that happy little glow that you get at seeing one of
> >your sweeties being happy in another relationship.
>
> Or some kind of flu that makes your nose all stuffed up.
>
> up with a less technical sounding word for the feeling. Something like
> "warm fuzzies" only specific to watching OSOs with their loves.)
How about 'metamory', derived from a love of loving? Peter Rowan on
uk-poly came up with this word and a few of us from uk-poly rather like
it. It works well because it also has the form metamour, which means
instead of saying your partner's partner or sweetie's sweetie, you can
say 'my metamour', as in "I'd like you to meet my partner, my paramour
and my metamour".
However, those of us who like metamory are in competition with the
people on u.p.p. who've come up with 'frubbly' as another word for the
same feeling.
Are either of these words more acceptable than 'compersion'? :)
alice.
--
* astral alice: bi, poly, goth | http://www.death.org.uk *
* alice on Surfers | telnet://surfers.org 4242 *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* What's the name of the word for things not being the same always? You *
* know... the thing that lets you know time is happening? - The Sandman *
songbird
"astral alice" <al...@death.org.uk> wrote:
...metamory, frubbly...
> Are either of these words more acceptable than 'compersion'? :)
yes, anything but _that_ word!
i'd like to bat around some other words tho too.
something in the warm and fuzzy category. like radiance, smuzzy,
brown (or to be more PC cocoa), ashmoozed, beshmuzzled, ziezotted,
zirzotten, teluv, boomerad, moobedar, reflect, blastradius, etcetera.
songbird (silly was hours ago. i've mellowed since then.
boomerad o. blastradius iv
Stef Maruch
>beshmuzzled
I vote for this one. The noun can be schmuzz.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
No back-seat surfing!
Janma
"Stef Maruch" <st...@baygate.bayarea.net> wrote in message
news:8h518...@news2.newsguy.com...
> songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>
> >beshmuzzled
>
> I vote for this one. The noun can be schmuzz.
>
> --
> Stef
I have just realized why I personally don't like the word compersion....it's
because it somehow brings to mind the two words...compelled and
cohersion...so I for one am all in favor of such a snuggly word as
schmuzz.....
I have yet to feel it though....
Janma.
*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
Andrea Merrell
> On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Janma wrote:
> }*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
>
On a system that really requires multi-tasking.
Andi
--
Andrea Merrell, the fluffKitten.
RJ
}"Stef Maruch" <st...@baygate.bayarea.net> wrote in message
}news:8h518...@news2.newsguy.com...
}> songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
}>
}> >beshmuzzled
}>
}> I vote for this one. The noun can be schmuzz.
}
}I have just realized why I personally don't like the word compersion....it's
}because it somehow brings to mind the two words...compelled and
}cohersion...so I for one am all in favor of such a snuggly word as
}schmuzz.....
It's up there with "snogging" for me. I vote "yay."
}Janma.
}*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
Just think of it as love with a multi-user license.
RJ
Aahz Maruch
>Andrea Merrell wrote:
>> RJ wrote in alt.polyamory:
>>> On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Janma wrote:
>>>}
>>>}*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
>>>
>>> Just think of it as love with a multi-user license.
>>
>
And lots of I/O channels.
--
--- Aahz (Copyright 2000 by aa...@netcom.com)
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
Have you coined a word today? --Aahz
Andrea Merrell
> In article <393678EB...@secant.com>, Susan Davis <s...@secant.com> wrote:
> >Andrea Merrell wrote:
> >> RJ wrote in alt.polyamory:
> >>> On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Janma wrote:
> >>>}
> >>>}*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
> >>>
> >>> Just think of it as love with a multi-user license.
> >>
> >> On a system that really requires multi-tasking.
> >
> >With a massively parallel architecture.
>
> And lots of I/O channels.
Good memory protectio is also a major advantage.
Liana Olear
: songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
: >beshmuzzled
: I vote for this one. The noun can be schmuzz.
Schmuzz? I don't like the way it associates for me. For some reason the
mental picture I get from the word is greenish fuzz on moldy food. "This
has been in the fridge for too long, it's gone all schmuzzy."
Liana
bearpaw
>
>Andrea Merrell wrote:
>> RJ wrote in alt.polyamory:
>> > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Janma wrote:
>> > }*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
>> >
>> > Just think of it as love with a multi-user license.
>>
>> On a system that really requires multi-tasking.
>
>With a massively parallel architecture.
[Insert joke about testbeds here]
Bearpaw
--
~~~~~~~~~~~ bea...@aq.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~
The United States trails only Russia in the share of its citizens
behind bars. The total U.S. incarceration rate ... is six to 10 times
higher than most industrial nations. -- The Sentencing Project
piranha
astral alice <al...@death.org.uk> wrote:
>
>How about 'metamory', derived from a love of loving? Peter Rowan on
>uk-poly came up with this word and a few of us from uk-poly rather like
>it. It works well because it also has the form metamour, which means
>instead of saying your partner's partner or sweetie's sweetie, you can
>say 'my metamour', as in "I'd like you to meet my partner, my paramour
>and my metamour".
yeah, that's not bad. i can see using it that way.
but it sounds sorta stuffy to say "i am feeling metamory
for my partner and zir partner" when i am all bouncy about
it.
>However, those of us who like metamory are in competition with the
>people on u.p.p. who've come up with 'frubbly' as another word for the
>same feeling.
yup, "frubbly" works better because it expresses the posi-
tive feeling rather than sound like a stuffy rendition of
the feeling.
heck, we can always use both. metamory can be the academic
version of frubbly.
>Are either of these words more acceptable than 'compersion'? :)
i can't think of many words that would be worse than that one.
:-)
-piranha
serene
>Andrea Merrell wrote:
>> RJ wrote in alt.polyamory:
>> > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Janma wrote:
>> > }*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
>> >
>> > Just think of it as love with a multi-user license.
>>
>> On a system that really requires multi-tasking.
>
>With a massively parallel architecture.
>
> -- Sue --
>(...at least mine is getting pretty massively parallel)
That's 'cause you're easy. *grin*
serene, ducking
--
"I am deliberate and afraid of nothing." -- Audre Lorde
serene
Maruch) writes:
>songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>
>>beshmuzzled
>
>I vote for this one. The noun can be schmuzz.
But it's so hard to sayyyyy</whine>
serene
kim
with that... ( as opposed to shmatta, meaning 'rag' in several languages.)
:> Kim
Aahz Maruch
serene <serene...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <393678EB...@secant.com>, Susan Davis <s...@secant.com> writes:
>>
>> -- Sue --
>>(...at least mine is getting pretty massively parallel)
>
>That's 'cause you're easy. *grin*
....but not cheap.
Aahz Maruch
Stef Maruch <st...@cat-and-dragon.com> wrote:
>songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>>
>>beshmuzzled
>
>I vote for this one. The noun can be schmuzz.
Unfortunately, schmuz pronounced Germanically is schmutz, and that
already has a slightly different meaning....
songbird
"Susan Davis" <s...@secant.com> wrote in message
news:3936922E...@secant.com...
> Andrea Merrell wrote:
> >
> > Good memory protection is also a major advantage.
>
> I'm sorry, what were we talking about?
avoiding parroty errors (or a cupid poly version, parroty arrows)
songbird *twang* (knowing someone has this in zir .sig,
but it never hurts to befuzz a point further
(wondering if someone will actually post this
before i do :)
songbird
snogging is a wonderful word! i love it, but don't
use it enough.
songbird *eep*
songbird
"Liana Olear" <li...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:8h62e2$7c$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> Stef Maruch <st...@cat-and-dragon.com> writes:
> : songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>
> : >beshmuzzled
>
> : I vote for this one. The noun can be schmuzz.
>
> mental picture I get from the word is greenish fuzz on moldy food. "This
> has been in the fridge for too long, it's gone all schmuzzy."
compersion reminds me too much of computers. :) and even if
computers give me a warm fuzzy feeling when i see them happily
networking i'm quite sure many others don't see them as the living
beans they are.
schmuzz isn't my favorite, but i'll be happy using almost any
word than compersion.
what words in Russian are used for warm and fuzzy and happy
and such other emotions you might feel if you see someone happy
in love with someone else?
songbird *peep*
songbird
"Aahz Maruch" <aa...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8h6dco$ol9$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> >>
> >>beshmuzzled
> >
> >I vote for this one. The noun can be schmuzz.
>
> already has a slightly different meaning....
the word has bad parents/genes, it _must_ be weeded out!
meaning of schmutz is?
Obsilly: (we only want meaningless fun warm fuzzy words with
no parents mucking up the works! fie! out! out! bad word!
<beshmuzzled hangs zir head and exudes warm fuzzy's all the
way out the door>
)
ObConstructive: if people will list warm and fuzzy words in
their various languages we could all have fun smooshing words.
songbird (moosh i like too, it reminds me of standing hip deep
in an emotional swamp eating all the fine emotical greenery
*crunch* *crunch*
RJ
}In article <20000601145038...@nso-bd.aol.com>,
}serene <serene...@aol.com> wrote:
}>In article <393678EB...@secant.com>, Susan Davis <s...@secant.com> writes:
}>>
}>> -- Sue --
}>>(...at least mine is getting pretty massively parallel)
}>
}>That's 'cause you're easy. *grin*
}
}....but not cheap.
Ah. Early version Macintosh. :)
iPoly, anyone?
RJ
RJ
}In article <8h6d9n$b9b$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, aa...@netcom.com (Aahz
}Maruch) writes:
}
}>In article <20000601145038...@nso-bd.aol.com>,
}>serene <serene...@aol.com> wrote:
}>>In article <393678EB...@secant.com>, Susan Davis <s...@secant.com>
}>writes:
}>>>
}>>> -- Sue --
}>>>(...at least mine is getting pretty massively parallel)
}>>
}>>That's 'cause you're easy. *grin*
}>
}>....but not cheap.
}
}I just got the goofiest image of a special aisle at the store with "Poly Family
}ValuPaks."
Or the economy flats of Polys at Sam's Club.
Scary.
RJ
RJ
Just put yourself in more situations where it is necessary to use
the term.
Easy enough. ;-)
RJ
RJ
} what words in Russian are used for warm and fuzzy and happy
}and such other emotions you might feel if you see someone happy
}in love with someone else?
"Leaving for USA?"
RJ
Josh Jasper
piranha wrote:
>
> In article <4ZDZ4.1193$AW3....@nntp3.onemain.com>,
> songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> >
> > meaning of schmutz is?
>
> dirt.
>
> -piranha
Specifically, the kind a Jewish Grandmother will exclaim about,
then, with previously unknown speed, she'll lick the end of a
hanky, and wipe your face with the moistened end to get the
"Schmutz" off of her adorable Grandson/Granddaughter.
piranha
Andrea Merrell
> Andrea Merrell wrote:
> > Good memory protection is also a major advantage.
>
> I'm sorry, what were we talking about?
SMP - symetrical multi partners
David Matthewman
> >However, those of us who like metamory are in competition with the
> >people on u.p.p. who've come up with 'frubbly' as another word for the
> >same feeling.
>
> yup, "frubbly" works better because it expresses the posi-
> tive feeling rather than sound like a stuffy rendition of
> the feeling.
Purely for the record if this gains wide acceptance, this word was
invented by 'Baby' Simon MacMullen on 1 May 2000, at a picnic attended
by numerous poly people to celebrate Liz W's birthday, while he was
under the influence of whisky, Trish and Sasha.
That's a good enough pedigree for me, frankly.
--
David Matthewman
Aahz Maruch
I believe it has a slightly different meaning in Yiddish.
Liana Olear
: what words in Russian are used for warm and fuzzy and happy
: and such other emotions you might feel if you see someone happy
: in love with someone else?
I have no idea. I am not even certain I could _feel_ those things in
Russian, let alone express them. (Yes, I do feel things in languages.
Love and related feelings are almost exclusively in English, annoyance is
about 50-50, anger is 95% in Russian, as is appreciation of well
done/attractive/clever things, frustration is in a mix of all the
languages I know plus a couple I don't. For feelings that I experience
in a particular language, substituting languages feels completely
unnatural. Love in Russian feels a bit corny, anger in English seems
inadequately emphatic, etc.)
Liana
LK
>In article <20000601145038...@nso-bd.aol.com>,
>serene <serene...@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <393678EB...@secant.com>, Susan Davis <s...@secant.com> writes:
>>>
>>> -- Sue --
>>>(...at least mine is getting pretty massively parallel)
>>
>>That's 'cause you're easy. *grin*
>
>....but not cheap.
NOW I know the source of my problems: I'm not easy, but I am cheap.
LK
piranha
Aahz Maruch <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <8h7g3q$q32$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>piranha <pir...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>In article <4ZDZ4.1193$AW3....@nntp3.onemain.com>,
>>songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> meaning of schmutz is?
>>
>> dirt.
>
>I believe it has a slightly different meaning in Yiddish.
"dirt" doesn't have just one meaning in german
either. it can either be literal dirt, or per-
ceptional dirt. eg. porn is called "schmutz"
by some people.
so what is the slightly different meaning in yid-
dish?
-piranha
Aahz Maruch
piranha <pir...@pobox.com> wrote:
>In article <8h8geb$63k$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>,
>Aahz Maruch <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <8h7g3q$q32$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>>piranha <pir...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>In article <4ZDZ4.1193$AW3....@nntp3.onemain.com>,
>>>songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> meaning of schmutz is?
>>>
>>> dirt.
>>
>>I believe it has a slightly different meaning in Yiddish.
>
> "dirt" doesn't have just one meaning in german
> either. it can either be literal dirt, or per-
> ceptional dirt. eg. porn is called "schmutz"
> by some people.
>
> so what is the slightly different meaning in yid-
> dish?
That's pretty close to the Yiddish meaning, then.
songbird
"Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote:
...
> > songbird (moosh i like too, it reminds me of standing hip deep
> > in an emotional swamp eating all the fine emotical greenery
> > *crunch* *crunch*
>
> big way.....
>
> Janma....
> *in emotional quicksand*
aw, *hugs* (if wanted). i'm confused though because i
thought you were the person who had this feeling already
and the issue to be resolved is between you and your
established partner? (who is monogamous)
we are talking about a feeling of being happy at
seeing a partner's joy when they are involved with
someone else right? (pluralise where needed)
songbird *peep*
songbird
"piranha" <pir...@gooroos.com> wrote in message
news:8h7g3q$q32$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com...
> In article <4ZDZ4.1193$AW3....@nntp3.onemain.com>,
> songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> >
> > meaning of schmutz is?
>
> dirt.
good dirt, freshly tilled, half worms on the spade.
makes me feel good and warm.
songbird (and hungry too *slurp*
songbird
"Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote in message news:393748D6...@jps.net...
...dirt...
> Specifically, the kind a Jewish Grandmother will exclaim about,
> then, with previously unknown speed, she'll lick the end of a
> hanky, and wipe your face with the moistened end to get the
> "Schmutz" off of her adorable Grandson/Granddaughter.
the rich folk always used hankies. we got the wet thumb.
songbird (ok, i'm just funnin' here ;)
at least about the rich folks part
PapaBear
>On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Janma wrote:
>}Janma.
>}*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
>
>Just think of it as love with a multi-user license.
>
LOL! I love it! NOW all of a sudden I understand!
Sheesh RJ - all these emails trying to explain - all you had to do was
put it in /geek/ and We could have avoided all the wasted bandwidth!
PapaBear
--
email: ze...@shadofax.gen.nz
web: www.shadofax.gen.nz
Get paid to Surf!
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=ICS837
songbird
> songbird <ant...@usit.net> writes:
> : what words in Russian are used for warm and fuzzy and happy
> : and such other emotions you might feel if you see someone happy
> : in love with someone else?
>
> I have no idea. I am not even certain I could _feel_ those things in
> Russian, let alone express them. (Yes, I do feel things in languages.
wow. to me language is layered on top of emotions (with influences
in both directions and significant overlap at the boundaries), but i
can't say i feel things in languages as much as i feel some things because
of language and express some feelings via language. it's almost definitional
that i would classify feelings as those things that i cannot access
directly lingoistically (so i must get at them indirectly via these fixed
symbols called words). (the soup can be stirred and eaten (encapsulating
it and transporting) but that doesn't bring complete understanding of
what it is to be soup). (i'm feeling a little like mushroom soup lately)
> Love and related feelings are almost exclusively in English, annoyance is
> about 50-50, anger is 95% in Russian, as is appreciation of well
> done/attractive/clever things, frustration is in a mix of all the
> languages I know plus a couple I don't. For feelings that I experience
> in a particular language, substituting languages feels completely
> unnatural. Love in Russian feels a bit corny, anger in English seems
> inadequately emphatic, etc.)
there is something glutterally satisfying about German that English
doesn't have enough of. maybe it's proportional to the calories
burned speaking it? (waxing puritainical "wax on" -- "wax off!" *ouch*)
do fluent German speakers feel a tension between getting
things said and the stops that the language has built into it
(like when you are trying to explain something rapidly?) or do
you smooth them over as you pick up the pace of speaking?)
> Liana
songbird *eep* (to say nothing of the clickers
Janma
feelings and situation yet in a legible one go form on the newsgroup because
I'm so confused about it myself. I have been trying to understand polyamory
and what it means to me and the way I want to live.
Love is a universal thing and it is ridiculous to think that we can hang on
to some one with conditions and emotional manipulations that we didn't even
formulate ourselves, but were handed down to us from hundreds of thousands
of years of societies that were quite obviously dealing with a different set
of paradigms and world environment than we are dealing with today. How can
loving someone make it impossible for us to love others at the same time? It
makes absolutely no sense! I really would like to be free from jealousy and
from relationships that have exclusive, possessive slants to them.
Basically to me polyamory represents freedom. Not just sexual freedom, but
freedom from reacting on a certain level to old emotional habits and
manipulations. To be polyamourous to me is the real test of being able to
love yourself....and I want to be able to do that. To be able to accept and
enjoy my loved one loving someone else means that I will be on such a level
of personal growth and emotional freedom that I imagine it will feel
extraordinary....and I want that feeling!
I am in a monogamous relationship that I am trying to extricate myself from
in a friendly and loving manner. To complicate this process however I have
very intense feelings towards a very close friend of mine, and he is also a
long time friend of my husband and my husbands brother....this man shares
those feelings with me and we have probably let them go too far for anyone
to be comfortable. A sort of cannot live but cannot die situation. It became
so intense for us that we have decided to 'put them away' for the time being
in the interests of everyone involved. He has moved to Jakarta and I am in
Bali. We don't even really contact each other now, because there is so much
heat on him with us being friends and me breaking up the relationship with
my husband.
He has/had a girlfriend for 7 years in Germany but he moved to Indonesia
two years ago to play music and she stayed in Germany, and their
relationship although not over, is estranged. She has come to Indonesia a
few times to visit him and I like her alot. I also hung out with her in
Hamburg when I went to visit my brother in law earlier this year. She is
still in love with him. She knows that we are very close friends but she
doesn't know about how deeply those feelings run. And she doesn't know about
the cliff incident. *a true fingernail biting incident*
They had some trouble a while back where she telephoned and wanted to end
their relationship because she had met another man. He was upset but also
sure that she would change her mind and he'd have her 'back' after not too
long. This did indeed happen and she visited Indonesia to try to patch
things up between them and re-establish what footing their relationship
should be on now that they obviously lived in different countries and there
was no end to that in sight. He was very cold and indifferent to her
although he wouldn't break off with her in any concrete clear way and he
insists though he still loves her in many ways, his body language was saying
at the same time that he was not available for communication and wasn't
interested in resolving any of their issues. She left for Germany feeling
resentment and frustration, and he felt pretty much the same too.
In the meantime he had a relationship with a French girl who he met in Java.
It was pretty much a rebound lick my wounds type response but this girl has
fallen madly in love with him and is moving to Indonesia to be with him. He
is ambivalent about this, but he in many ways wants to continue the
relationship. I find it really hard to see him and this girl in their NRE
Bali Hai mode. I mean I'm thirty five and have four kids and she's 24 and
has breasts, which kind of helps negative thoughts take root as well.
Although in the logical part of my mind I know that this isn't anything to
do with anything, my brain seems to giving the idea a fair bit of air-time
in spite of my continuous efforts at censorship.
He loves me but we are just a wrong place, wrong time, write-off. We can't
be seen together too much and when together we can't be seen to be more than
casual acquaintances, and at the moment we aren't really even able to be in
contact. He has to continue his life right? And of course I want him to be
happy and I don't really want to be back in a full on exclusive relationship
anyway, because my whole focus is on getting out of that and being with
myself. And also it would create the biggest waves in our circle. We are
all in the same circle of friends and once she moves here I will just have
to deal with them being together and me and him being nothing.
It hurts. I try not to feel hurt, but it's really difficult....like a
constant and exhausting war inside myself. I feel that if I could have a
less restricting relationship with him....or at least I could spend time
alone with him and just hang out, it wouldn't hurt so much to see them being
able to freely enjoy their feelings for each other. I wish I could just turn
off all these feelings like a tap and not feel anything for a while.....but
she is on her way here and so is he, no doubt and I'll just have to grab the
bull by the horns and do the work, I guess....
At the same time I have my husband threatening to take away my house and
land that I have just moved into after working for 12 years to get. My
business that I started with fly piss in the wind and a wish, has grown and
prospered, is now also in jeopardy. In alot of ways I know that he's just
bringing out the low blows to try to hang on to me....but it is a stressful
situation. I've dreamed of having my own home all my life....my first
husband managed to take my first home after just 6 weeks of me buying it.
And that was in my name and in Australia!....he's just such a nutter that I
let him have it. I had no fight left in me. Now I2 years later I have just
moved into the second house and whammo! Back to "You leave me and you lose
everything" scenario... GHOD! And I have four kids to support to top it off.
Finally I last week just got fed up and called his bluff. "Have it then!
Take the lot.....include the karma with that! I'm out of here! I don't want
it anyway. I spit on your name!!!!" Why would you want to use a house and
not your heart to hold on to someone? I am beyond understanding. Since then
he hasn't said a bad word to me and has been more than respectful and
courteous, he apologized for saying what he said and tried to reassure me
that he was simply acting from anger and confusion he even referred to the
house as 'your house' once!
This is probably so long and boring that I'll probably get booted of the
NG.....Or.......Jimbat might spit the dummy, so I better leave it all like
that and hit send.
Janma
*somehow feeling clearer now, about her confusion*
Janma.
*feeling overwhelmed*
"songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote in message
news:L80_4.1237$v_.5...@nntp2.onemain.com...
Stef Maruch
>piranha <pir...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>Aahz Maruch <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>piranha <pir...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> meaning of schmutz is?
>>>>
>>>> dirt.
>>>
>>
>> "dirt" doesn't have just one meaning in german
>> either. it can either be literal dirt, or per-
>> ceptional dirt. eg. porn is called "schmutz"
>> by some people.
>>
>> so what is the slightly different meaning in yid-
>> dish?
>
>That's pretty close to the Yiddish meaning, then.
Oh, Yiddish "schmutz" = English "smut"?
I still really like "beschmuzzled," but I guess we can do without a
noun form.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In the force if Yoda's so strong, construct a sentence with words in the
proper order then why can't he? -- /fortune
songbird
"Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote:
...negative thoughts...
> Although in the logical part of my mind I know that this isn't anything to
> do with anything, my brain seems to giving the idea a fair bit of air-time
> in spite of my continuous efforts at censorship.
keep up the good fight. :) i dunno why but it seems that
many people's worst enemies are themselves.
...
> It hurts. I try not to feel hurt, but it's really difficult....like a
> constant and exhausting war inside myself. I feel that if I could have a
> less restricting relationship with him....or at least I could spend time
> alone with him and just hang out, it wouldn't hurt so much to see them being
> able to freely enjoy their feelings for each other.
yeah, i've been in a similar situation like that. the having to hide
feelings and actions really bothered me.
> I wish I could just turn
> off all these feelings like a tap and not feel anything for a while.....but
> she is on her way here and so is he, no doubt and I'll just have to grab the
> bull by the horns and do the work, I guess....
there is nothing wrong with taking a break from such feelings if they
get to be too much. as long as it's not a permanent one. as you seem to
say it's not too much so you're going to do the work i applaud you. facing
down fears is not easy and in this case it might just be to come to face
the facts. that this man isn't really someone who's working with you.
at least in my opinion he's not very engaged with helping you work out
things at all. instead of working with a loved one to help them along
he just goes out and finds others and then you are forced to deal with
them or not. i guess i don't know what your specific arrangement is,
but this would bug me. :) if someone is going to be coming to my house
to meet a love and that love happens to be a partner of mine then i sure
would want to have some control over how fast things move and how much
stuff i have to be in my face at one time. i dunno. he just doesn't
sound all that concerned about what his actual impact is on you.
...
> Finally I last week just got fed up and called his bluff. "Have it then!
> Take the lot.....include the karma with that! I'm out of here! I don't want
> it anyway. I spit on your name!!!!"
> Why would you want to use a house and
> not your heart to hold on to someone? I am beyond understanding. Since then
> he hasn't said a bad word to me and has been more than respectful and
> courteous, he apologized for saying what he said and tried to reassure me
> that he was simply acting from anger and confusion he even referred to the
> house as 'your house' once!
i would hope so. :) if i remember right he doesn't do much of
anything to support himself so if you left he probably wouldn't
keep the house for long. does he help in looking after the kids?
(is he a stay at home dad?) if he is then he has been doing something
all these years that is important to keeping a family together. or
am i just confused here and he's just been a lump all these years?
(a lump that you've been loving for some reasons? :) i guess i
doubt those reasons have changed that much have they?) if he has
been contributing to the childcare i think it's important to recognise
that.
what i don't understand is if you still love him and want to be
married to him why things must be so strife ridden. that he wants
to live there with you but you want your own space? howabout building
another small place out back for him that is his place? better yet
give him some incentive to work for it and help out so he feels some
ownership and pride. :) i'm just kicking around ideas, i am missing
a lot of facts as to how you feel about him and if you really want
to be around him anymore or what?
is there some way to put a time-line on things too? maybe your
husband would feel better if things weren't moving so fast all
of a sudden? would he accept this if it were more gradual and
if he had some control over the pace of things changing? if he's
just been there and helping out a little all these years i can see
where he's threatened by the changes and why he might be angry. not
that i agree he should have a free ride or anything, but i think you
need to acknowledge that that is part of the bed you have made over
these years. i wouldn't consider it right to abandon i'd made marriage
vows with.
he's not in any position of equality to negotiate from. that alone
is a clear sign to me that he has some specific needs to go after,
but he may be lost as to how to do that. so i empathise with him
too.
so i'm just kicking up ideas as they come to mind. if some makes
sense and helps you then good. otherwise file in the circular file
and keep on thinking about your specific situation.
> *somehow feeling clearer now, about her confusion*
*chuckle* a small victory.
songbird *peep*
Janma
> get to be too much. as long as it's not a permanent one. as you seem to
> say it's not too much so you're going to do the work i applaud you.
facing
> down fears is not easy and in this case it might just be to come to face
> the facts. that this man isn't really someone who's working with you.
> at least in my opinion he's not very engaged with helping you work out
> things at all. instead of working with a loved one to help them along
> he just goes out and finds others and then you are forced to deal with
> them or not. i guess i don't know what your specific arrangement is,
> but this would bug me. :)
You are right in a way.....he isn't helping all that much, in that he's not
really compromising and it is in my face. though he has spent alot of his
time to try to make me feel ok with this girl, it doesn't include
'stopping'. We are friends really so by rights I should just be sure of our
friendship and let the rest ride. He stayed at our house on and off for
months and dealt with me being married and going to bed with my husband in
the very next room. Actually the whole thing is so convoluted and that's
because we are feeling what are deemed 'unacceptable feeelings' inside and
on the outside we are having to carry on like we are not. In the end I start
to mix up what is real and what isn't. I don't know how he did it,
sometimes after a few days when he'd look like his head was about to blow
off he'd go home for a day or two. For me, I'd rather not have it so in my
face, but he is the arch-typical inscrutable oriental and managed to control
his feelings admirably (at least it appears that way to ones on the
outside.) He told me that I should try wearing my sleeve over my heart
once, instead of my heart on my sleeve!
if someone is going to be coming to my house
> to meet a love and that love happens to be a partner of mine then i sure
> would want to have some control over how fast things move and how much
> stuff i have to be in my face at one time. i dunno. he just doesn't
> sound all that concerned about what his actual impact is on you.
>
>
> ...
> > Finally I last week just got fed up and called his bluff. "Have it then!
> > Take the lot.....include the karma with that! I'm out of here! I don't
want
> > it anyway. I spit on your name!!!!"
>
>
> > Why would you want to use a house and
> > not your heart to hold on to someone? I am beyond understanding. Since
then
> > he hasn't said a bad word to me and has been more than respectful and
> > courteous, he apologized for saying what he said and tried to reassure
me
> > that he was simply acting from anger and confusion he even referred to
the
> > house as 'your house' once!
>
> i would hope so. :) if i remember right he doesn't do much of
> anything to support himself so if you left he probably wouldn't
> keep the house for long. does he help in looking after the kids?
Seven years ago my daughter had to write at school about what her parents
do. She drew a picture of Barok sitting at at table drinking a coffee and he
had a caged bird over his head. (He spends hours each day taking care of his
caged birds...) Now seven years later, his son has had the same type of work
to do and funnily enough drew a very similar picture and wrote 'My dad
doesn't do anything.' at the bottom of it....We all rubbed that one in
Baroks face, I can tell you!
> (is he a stay at home dad?)
Yes, he stays home and drives me crazy, because my business is run from
home. So for ten years I worked and watched him do what he wanted to do and
if asked to help out, he would just respond in anger and refuse.
if he is then he has been doing something
> all these years that is important to keeping a family together. or
> am i just confused here and he's just been a lump all these years?
> (a lump that you've been loving for some reasons? :)
I have something to work out inside me about why I have let this situation
develop and why I loved him or convinced myself to love him. And I think
alot of it was just trauma from my first marriage. My first husband makes
the guy from the movie 'Sleeping with the Enemy' look like Santa Claus. I am
in Bali because I had to run off in the middle of the night with three kids
and disappear really. I grabbed the first guy that I could call a friend and
installed him as 'boyfriend' so that I would have some measure of
protection if he turned up. Luckily he (my ex) ended up in Tihar Jail in New
Delhi for half a year before he escaped and turned up again, and that space
enabled me to strengthen my position a little so that when he did turn up he
couldn't get his foot in the door so easily. I had to get married because I
couldn't stay in Indonesia unless I was married. I do love him because he
has in his own special way of being apart from all the neg stuff, we play
music together and it's been somehow a language for us. Also because I held
the reins financially and in decsisions, it was sort of like building up my
own powerbase again. I had ten years to build up my life again without any
interference. He didn't interfere and he kept everyone else at bay by just
being there. That's really too nutshelly....I'm starting to think I have no
idea if I loved him or just convinced my self I did, or whether I could love
anyone if I tried hard enough because I didn't want the boat to be rocked.
i guess i
> doubt those reasons have changed that much have they?) if he has
> been contributing to the childcare i think it's important to recognise
> that.
>
> what i don't understand is if you still love him and want to be
> married to him why things must be so strife ridden. that he wants
> to live there with you but you want your own space?
He is incapable of living on his own. He gets all his money from me and
enjoys the whole set up that I have built around our lives. A house in town,
and now a house in the hills, a motor bike, a car, a handphone, millions of
rupiah worth of music equipment, drivers, maids, gophers.....I don't know
how he would live without it now as he's been thoroughly spoilt. .
howabout building
> another small place out back for him that is his place? better yet
> give him some incentive to work for it and help out so he feels some
> ownership and pride. :) i'm just kicking around ideas, i am missing
> a lot of facts as to how you feel about him and if you really want
> to be around him anymore or what?
>
He has just swapped one of my motorbikes for a deposit on a piece of land
right below me on the hill here. Now he's hitting me up for the balance. I
don't want him out of my life because we are family too, but in a way I know
that he's obsessing about losing me and alot of his fears are that he can't
accept that I might one day be with someone else. He is very poetic about
what he will do to me if this ever happens
> is there some way to put a time-line on things too? maybe your
> husband would feel better if things weren't moving so fast all
> of a sudden? would he accept this if it were more gradual and
> if he had some control over the pace of things changing? if he's
> just been there and helping out a little all these years i can see
> where he's threatened by the changes and why he might be angry.
You are right, he feels that it is too fast....but in a way he's also been
ignoring what I have been trying to tell him for years. I am trying to go
slow, but every time I am lovey, comfy, friendly with him, he thinks it's
all off and I've changed my mind!
not
> that i agree he should have a free ride or anything, but i think you
> need to acknowledge that that is part of the bed you have made over
> these years.
That's true and I do wish the best for him.
i wouldn't consider it right to abandon i'd made marriage
> vows with.
If I considered it right, then I would be finding it a bit easier to deal
with I guess.
>
> he's not in any position of equality to negotiate from. that alone
> is a clear sign to me that he has some specific needs to go after,
> but he may be lost as to how to do that. so i empathise with him
> too.
I feel like crying every morning when I think about it.....but I know deeply
that in the end, this could be the best thing that ever happened to him. He
has to get out and make a living....make a life! He hasn't got a choice. So
that's going to be a real empowerment for him if he can do it.
>
> so i'm just kicking up ideas as they come to mind. if some makes
> sense and helps you then good. otherwise file in the circular file
> and keep on thinking about your specific situation.
I guess I had rose colored glasses on for years because I didn't want to see
anything that might mean I'd have to go through another break up and
subsequent runaway and hide scenario. Why can't they just let go? Be a
gentleman? Why is it such a struggle?
Egal....
I thank you so much for your input....sometimes if I am only consulting in
my own mind i wonder if my perception is flawed and it's good to have
another who has nothing to gain or lose bring in their perceptions.
Janma...
*sound of rose colored glass breaking underfoot*
Josh Jasper
Janma wrote:
>
[snip]
A few questions. Are you in Ubud? And do you know an American
photographer named Leonard Lureas? He lives in Sanur. He does
travel photography and lives in this incredibly dreamy villa type
set up with a few other artists and such. At least, he lived
there 5 years ago. I haven't heard from him in a long while.
I'm not asking you to contact him, mind you, just checking if we
have friends / acquaintances in common.
Janma
Yes, I live in Ubud. I don't know Leonard but I have heard of him. Recently
when I was in London I stayed with my friend Jane and her brother who is a
business consultant there was saying he worked with Leonard on a book about
surfing in Bali. He consequently made a bunch of money and was able to build
this dreamy villa in Bali.
Janma....
*who built a dreamy villa and is now wondering if she could write a book
that could fill the money gap left behind..*
Josh Jasper
Janma wrote:
>
> "Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote in message
> news:393A19B3...@jps.net...
> >
> >
> > A few questions. Are you in Ubud? And do you know an American
> > photographer named Leonard Lureas? He lives in Sanur. He does
> > travel photography and lives in this incredibly dreamy villa type
> > set up with a few other artists and such. At least, he lived
> > there 5 years ago. I haven't heard from him in a long while.
> > I'm not asking you to contact him, mind you, just checking if we
> > have friends / acquaintances in common.
>
> Yes, I live in Ubud.
Ubud, from what I remember of it, was quite beautiful. The museum
was a wonderful sight as well.
> I don't know Leonard but I have heard of him. Recently
> when I was in London I stayed with my friend Jane and her brother who is a
> business consultant there was saying he worked with Leonard on a book about
> surfing in Bali. He consequently made a bunch of money and was able to build
> this dreamy villa in Bali.
>
I think he may be somewhat of a local fixture. I've only been
to his place once, for my (and my wife's, of course) honeymoon.
That was 5 years ago, however.
> Janma....
> *who built a dreamy villa and is now wondering if she could write a book
> that could fill the money gap left behind..*
Heh. I ain't got no money, I ain't got no dreamy villa. Seriously,
though, money is often a reasonable solution to allot of life's
problems.
songbird
"Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote in message news:Cpu_4.1964$K8.13908@news...
> "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote in message
> news:kEf_4.6115$bH5.2...@nntp1.onemain.com...
> > "Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote:
> > ...negative thoughts...
hmm, well my intuition is that this followup will be late.
i just hope it's a happier late rather than an unhappier late.
...
> > howabout building
> > another small place out back for him that is his place? better yet
> > give him some incentive to work for it and help out so he feels some
> > ownership and pride. :) i'm just kicking around ideas, i am missing
> > a lot of facts as to how you feel about him and if you really want
> > to be around him anymore or what?
>
> He has just swapped one of my motorbikes for a deposit on a piece of land
> right below me on the hill here. Now he's hitting me up for the balance. I
> don't want him out of my life because we are family too, but in a way I know
> that he's obsessing about losing me and alot of his fears are that he can't
> accept that I might one day be with someone else. He is very poetic about
> what he will do to me if this ever happens
buying the land down the hill may be his beginning to
acknowledge that his life is changing. it may work out in time.
i have no clear idea of what you mean by poetic, but if you feel
actually threatened then you know what to do. i sure hope it
doesn't come to that though.
if you can get him to talk about his fears and if you can listen
beyond financial worrys from a spot of loving and caring then it
might work out. however, someone driven into a corner and feeling
threatened isn't going to feel any agreement is positive. i think
you're both feeling like that since there is little speaking of
"ours" but it is all about "mine" and "his." so i can see why he's
getting obsessive about losing you. psychologically it's already
happening. short of working on together things again i don't
see how he'd have reason to change those fears into something
where instead of losing you he is sharing you. (the "my house"
comment really drove that home to me and probably to him too.)
...
> > he's not in any position of equality to negotiate from. that alone
> > is a clear sign to me that he has some specific needs to go after,
> > but he may be lost as to how to do that. so i empathise with him
> > too.
>
> I feel like crying every morning when I think about it.....but I know deeply
> that in the end, this could be the best thing that ever happened to him. He
> has to get out and make a living....make a life! He hasn't got a choice. So
> that's going to be a real empowerment for him if he can do it.
well he does have choices, but since he's in such a spot he's
got few good choices in terms of keeping things as they are. so
how much do you want to help him make the transition? can you really
be there for him during this as he was for you? it's not going to
be instant. but i wonder that if he sees you trying to help him
and not just pushing him aside with no help at all that he'll at
least see that as a way to be happy compared to the alternatives.
personally i think he's got it made. and i think you could help
him bloom here if he'd be willing to actually make a little effort
to get things started. so i agree with you that it will be empowering,
but _he_ has to be the one to choose that. forcing it just verifies
whatever feelings of abandonment he might be feeling and drives him
further into a corner.
> > so i'm just kicking up ideas as they come to mind. if some makes
> > sense and helps you then good. otherwise file in the circular file
> > and keep on thinking about your specific situation.
>
> I guess I had rose colored glasses on for years because I didn't want to see
> anything that might mean I'd have to go through another break up and
> subsequent runaway and hide scenario. Why can't they just let go? Be a
> gentleman? Why is it such a struggle?
he still loves you? i hope you don't have to run and hide,
but i sure am not going to encourage you to stay if he's got
a violence prone streak to him either.
> Egal....
> I thank you so much for your input....sometimes if I am only consulting in
> my own mind i wonder if my perception is flawed and it's good to have
> another who has nothing to gain or lose bring in their perceptions.
yeah, but i can only speak from what you have said here. i'm sure
not seeing the whole story and his side of things. i can't guage much
of his personality or abilities and i sure have no idea what it feels
like when you two are in the same room together.
all i know is that i see you wanting change and quick and i
feel some regret that he hasn't been nudged towards being his
own person in a stronger way.
i don't know that anything i've written is good because of
that lack of culture and situation. i just hate to see all of
you hurting and confused. i see him having potential for
making his own life and giving him some backbone for a change
and some loving and caring support from you might be a help
you can offer him.
i dunno. i suspect he's made some decision already now
that he's going after the other chunk of land. i wish all of
you some kind of happy arrangement. i'm sure i don't know what
that arrangement will be. work on the good stuff and the
things that make it happy and right between you two. make
music and laugh sometime. going on and on in serious mode and
trying to force something along quickly without a break for
being together and loving each other isn't going to give
anyone any breaks so things can get pretty explosive
emotionally.
take care and try to help him along as much as you can.
songbird
Jim Roberts
Eastern Economic Review. Others might sink money into a villa in such a place,
but not me. I can't see rewarding people who run amok every generation or so,
hacking their neighbors to bits with machetes.
One of my savored moments was putting a German astronomer on the spot when a bunch
of us went out to a local brewery after he had come back from a conference on
Bali. I told him of the 1966 genocide there, and he drew himself up to full
German height and said, "Such nice people could never do that." I can't remember
exactly what I foamed after that, but he got a very red face. He wasn't into
history, can't think why. We never collaborated.
And then there was the older German astronomer from CWRU who referred at dinner to
"eastern territories under temporary administration" (ie, Silesia, in Poland). I
was outraged. But other astronomers at the table respected his work, so it was
not a good time for anyone after I bearded him.
Our German wife used to get physically sick over things like this. There is hope
for Germany in the next generation; hers hasn't quite made it.
Sometimes the truth requires unpleasantness.
Josh Jasper wrote:
> Janma wrote:
> >
> > "Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote in message
> > news:393A19B3...@jps.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > A few questions. Are you in Ubud? And do you know an American
> > > photographer named Leonard Lureas? He lives in Sanur. He does
> > > travel photography and lives in this incredibly dreamy villa type
> > > set up with a few other artists and such. At least, he lived
> > > there 5 years ago. I haven't heard from him in a long while.
> > > I'm not asking you to contact him, mind you, just checking if we
> > > have friends / acquaintances in common.
> >
> > Yes, I live in Ubud.
[...]
jimbat
Josh Jasper
Jim Roberts wrote:
>
> Yes, Ubud. Back when I was in grad school I used to read about it in the Far
> Eastern Economic Review. Others might sink money into a villa in such a place,
> but not me. I can't see rewarding people who run amok every generation or so,
> hacking their neighbors to bits with machetes.
>
Says the man who lives in America, where that sort of thing never
happens.
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
>Oh, Yiddish "schmutz" = English "smut"?
>I still really like "beschmuzzled," but I guess we can do without a
>noun form.
Why deprive ourselves? Beschmuzzlement. English at its finest.
--
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pd...@demesne.com)
"I will open my heart to a blank page
and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World"
Jim Roberts
Josh Jasper wrote:
> Jim Roberts wrote:
> >
> > Yes, Ubud. Back when I was in grad school I used to read about it in the Far
> > Eastern Economic Review. Others might sink money into a villa in such a place,
> > but not me. I can't see rewarding people who run amok every generation or so,
> > hacking their neighbors to bits with machetes.
> >
>
> Says the man who lives in America, where that sort of thing never
> happens.
No, indeed, it does not. I suggest that the gentleman read some eyewitness accounts
of the slaughter that has taken place there, the families hacked to bits on the
roadside, whole neighborhoods emptied out. And he should recognize the denial that he
fosters.
We have had some bad actions in America, but they were opposed by significant elements
of society, documented, and have been the subject of considerable self-examination.
Open a history text used in school here, and you can read about strange fruit. Open a
history text in Bali, and the Chinese have simply vanished. The Balinese are not much
given to self-examination, nor, indeed, have been the very murderous, even genocidal,
American Indian societies. It is so nice to admire the noble savage.
I'm not at all proud of my Iroquois heritage, because despite their democracy they
were a very organized and murderous lot. My wife's tribe, the Cherokee, were driven
out of the Iroquois Confederation, down into Carolina, in part because they weren't
into genocide, such as annihilating the Huron, man woman and child.
jimbat
Josh Jasper
Jim Roberts wrote:
>
> Josh Jasper wrote:
>
> > Jim Roberts wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, Ubud. Back when I was in grad school I used to read about it in the Far
> > > Eastern Economic Review. Others might sink money into a villa in such a place,
> > > but not me. I can't see rewarding people who run amok every generation or so,
> > > hacking their neighbors to bits with machetes.
0> > >
> >
> > Says the man who lives in America, where that sort of thing never
> > happens.
>
> No, indeed, it does not.
Heh. Oh, you really are a kidder.
> I suggest that the gentleman read some eyewitness accounts
> of the slaughter that has taken place there, the families hacked to bits on the
> roadside, whole neighborhoods emptied out.
I have. I just don't care to put my "race" or "culture" above them.
> And he should recognize the denial that he
> fosters.
>
Why have it here when we can export it wholesale, or hire outside
contractors in Southamerica?
> We have had some bad actions in America, but they were opposed by significant elements
> of society, documented, and have been the subject of considerable self-examination.
Then, we do it again.
> Open a history text used in school here, and you can read about strange fruit. Open a
> history text in Bali, and the Chinese have simply vanished. The Balinese are not much
> given to self-examination, nor, indeed, have been the very murderous, even genocidal,
> American Indian societies. It is so nice to admire the noble savage.
>
I lived out there, you didn't. I never said I admired anyone.
> I'm not at all proud of my Iroquois heritage, because despite their democracy they
> were a very organized and murderous lot.
So, you're proud of the white heritage? Hah.
> My wife's tribe, the Cherokee, were driven
> out of the Iroquois Confederation, down into Carolina, in part because they weren't
> into genocide, such as annihilating the Huron, man woman and child.
>
> jimbat
Whoop-de-doo. White people kill each other with just as much abandon,
and cry crocodile tears.
umar
>And then there was the older German astronomer from CWRU who referred at
>dinner to "eastern territories under temporary administration" (ie,
>Silesia, in Poland). I was outraged.
That was the legal status of Silesia until the West German-Polish treaty
was signed (I think around 1974); while Silesia is now indisputably
Polish, it was German for a thousand years ultil 1945.
umar
umar
>Josh Jasper wrote:
>> Says the man who lives in America, where that sort of thing never
>> happens.
>No, indeed, it does not.
It has happened right here in New England. King Philip's War in the 1670's
saw many such incidents.
umar
Josh Jasper
Janma wrote:
>
> Guys it's all just a matter of who can do it and get away with it I
> think.....
That was sort of my point.
> there are hardly any races or cultures in the world that would
> pass up a bit of oppression or food chain climbing given the chance.....it's
> a human condition....actually I think it's got allot to do with the Y
> chromosone....but I probably shouldn't go there....
>
Who knows, you may be right. Humanity certainly has stopped
surprising me in it's capacity for mass insanity. To be honest,
I don't care if it's a Y chromosome thing. That doesn't change
things. I've got serious doubts they ever will change.
> Janma.
>
> *Ducking*
piranha
songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>
> do fluent German speakers feel a tension between getting
>things said and the stops that the language has built into it
>(like when you are trying to explain something rapidly?) or do
>you smooth them over as you pick up the pace of speaking?)
not i. i can speak german just as rapidly as i can
speak dutch and english. and, as you suggested, it
does smooth out. i suspect your main german exposure
has been in movies, and possibly in language class.
well, nobody in everyday speech talks like that, except
maybe u-boat commanders giving orders. :-)
i find some thing harder to say in german than in dutch,
for example, but that's because the "feel" isn't quite
right in them, and the "feel" has a lot to do with what
associations i bring to things. certainly people can
express affection in german; millions of germans speak
no other language :-). but to me it sounds stilted or
overly sappy. while dutch, to me, really lends itself
to affectionate talk.
it's not quite like liana described; i don't feel through
or in a particular language (i don't think in any parti-
cular one either), but if i am trying to express certain
things, some languages are better at it than others, for
me. german is real good for loud, aggressive anger. :-)
-piranha
Josh Jasper
Jim Roberts wrote:
>
> A thoughtful and partially informed reply.
>
> Janma wrote:
>
> > "Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote
[snip]
> > >
> > > I have. I just don't care to put my "race" or "culture" above them.
> > >
>
> They have to earn our respect.
I've been telling you that for a while. You seem not to care.
>
> [...]
[...]
>
> It is very wrong to idealize American Indians. They were a brutal lot, and only
> turned peaceful and Great Spirity when they were whupped, and divined that white
> suckers liked that. Glorifying them is quite an industry. European/Mideast
> culture *is* superior, except for the suckers and the PC amongst us.
Western culture glorifies it's self even more than it glorifies American
Indians. Shakespeare glorified war and anti-Semitism.
>
> > The Balinese are not much
> > > > given to self-examination, nor, indeed, have been the very murderous,
> > even genocidal,
> > > > American Indian societies. It is so nice to admire the noble savage.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I lived out there, you didn't. I never said I admired anyone.
> >
>
> Cop out. You don't know where I have lived, or are you tracking my marked
> bills? Such very silly arrogance.
>
So, you did? Your previous histories don't seem to recount it.
You've been remarkably honest about your life history. Did I
miss you living anywhere near Southeast Asia?
> > >
> > > > I'm not at all proud of my Iroquois heritage, because despite their
> > democracy they
> > > > were a very organized and murderous lot.
> > >
> > > So, you're proud of the white heritage? Hah.
> > >
>
> Yes. How many times can you read Black Elk Speaks, or the fancies of Balinese
> animist-muslims? And how many times can you read Shakespeare and George
> Eliot? Pushkin, Moliere, Homer, Plato, Newton, Einstein, Maimonides, Ibn
> Khaldun - do I need to go on? I'm not saying that American Indians were fools.
> They were very clever, but their society was extremely corrupt by what we would
> call moral standards. It has led to nothing. It is bankrupt, ruptured and
> empty.
>
As is ours. Perhaps differently, but you've never been much of an
influence on my way of thinking.
> What we must fight against is organized violence and the prejudices and naivete
> that make that possible. This is something that Josh has yet to learn.
>
You still don't know much about what I do in my spare time. I
don't know what you do in yours. I just don't make any
assumptions, as you do about me. From what you've said, you
contribute time and effort to what I think are worthy causes.
Do you know one way or the other that I do or don't? Just what
the hell DO you know about me, and my efforts fighting against
organized violence and prejudice? Do you just get off on feeling
superior to me without checking first?
Janma
>
> "Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote in message
news:Cpu_4.1964$K8.13908@news...
> > "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote in message
> > news:kEf_4.6115$bH5.2...@nntp1.onemain.com...
> > > "Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote:
> > > ...negative thoughts...
>
> hmm, well my intuition is that this followup will be late.
> i just hope it's a happier late rather than an unhappier late.
It's a happier late.
> > He has just swapped one of my motorbikes for a deposit on a piece of
land
> > right below me on the hill here. Now he's hitting me up for the balance.
I
> > don't want him out of my life because we are family too, but in a way I
know
> > that he's obsessing about losing me and alot of his fears are that he
can't
> > accept that I might one day be with someone else. He is very poetic
about
> > what he will do to me if this ever happens
>
> buying the land down the hill may be his beginning to
> acknowledge that his life is changing. it may work out in time.
> i have no clear idea of what you mean by poetic, but if you feel
> actually threatened then you know what to do. i sure hope it
> doesn't come to that though.
He is trying to get to a comfortable place on all this, and as long as he
can imagine that we are still 'together' and still a family..he is willing
to consider living separately.
>
> if you can get him to talk about his fears and if you can listen
> beyond financial worrys from a spot of loving and caring then it
> might work out.
It's not really just financial worries as much as a feeling of 'it's not
fair.' I know that sounds childish....but when I really needed him to be
there for us when our financial worries were really severe, he wasn't
interested, and finally I have made a business that runs and supports us and
saved to buy this land and then used an inheritence from my mother to build
the house and he starts using it as a means to control me....I get mad
because it's not fair....not because I'm so scared to lose the house, though
I wouldn't be happy, it's a given in this world that there is a risk of
losing things....it's something I thought of when I built it to begin with,
it's just rebelling against the attitude.
however, someone driven into a corner and feeling
> threatened isn't going to feel any agreement is positive. i think
> you're both feeling like that since there is little speaking of
> "ours" but it is all about "mine" and "his." so i can see why he's
> getting obsessive about losing you. psychologically it's already
> happening. short of working on together things again i don't
> see how he'd have reason to change those fears into something
> where instead of losing you he is sharing you. (the "my house"
> comment really drove that home to me and probably to him too.)
Yeah, I know that being aggressive and getting into the mine and yours thing
is just making it worse....sometimes however when I am being loving to him
he just crashes back in past my newly erected boundaries like time to
myself, my body to myself, because he thinks that it's all gone back to
normal. It's hard to talk to him too, because he is not much of a talker and
worse still not much of a listener.
>
>
> ...
> > > he's not in any position of equality to negotiate from.
On the contrary he has quite a position to negotiate from, it's just what
he's doing too.
that alone
> > > is a clear sign to me that he has some specific needs to go after,
> > > but he may be lost as to how to do that. so i empathise with him
> > > too.
> >
> > I feel like crying every morning when I think about it.....but I know
deeply
> > that in the end, this could be the best thing that ever happened to him.
He
> > has to get out and make a living....make a life! He hasn't got a choice.
So
> > that's going to be a real empowerment for him if he can do it.
>
> well he does have choices, but since he's in such a spot he's
> got few good choices in terms of keeping things as they are. so
> how much do you want to help him make the transition?
I am helping him to make the transisition by doing this, if I do more
besides being hard on him when he becomes aggressive and being positive when
he's not then I am doing what I have been doing for the last 10
years....over functioning for him and I don't want to keep that pattern
going....He has to want to do it for himself, and then actually do it. For
ten years he's been saying "soon I'll get it together, just after this is
finished or that's happened, or don't rush me, I like to go at my own
pace...etc." And I would say, (as one not having had the luxury of 'going at
my own pace' because I had to feed us and pay school fee's and send his
father money every month etc), that I'm hearing you say this year after year
and I'm not happy, but I don't like to nag and I don't like to talk to a
wall, so just know that one day, I will get to the point where I've had
enough, and then don't act surprised....." So now he is surprised....
can you really
> be there for him during this as he was for you?
I need to think of the times when he was there for me.....because at the
moment I am boiling with resentment that he wasn't there for me, in my view,
until I wanted to separate. Now, he is very diligent in helping out
finishing the house off and taking the kids to school etc....It makes me so
mad that he spent 10 years putting zero energy into this relationship and
then turning around when I've had enough and saying...."You are tearing our
family apart." If he can acknowledge how I feel and see his part in all
that's happened that will go a long way to making me feel loving and
supportive again. At present I'm really at the point where I am
saying....."you give me a reason to want to work on this..."
it's not going to
> be instant. but i wonder that if he sees you trying to help him
> and not just pushing him aside with no help at all that he'll at
> least see that as a way to be happy compared to the alternatives.
I know that I have to come from a loving perspective, this is hard because I
feel such a panic about the whole process. My first husband was a maniac
when I tried to leave him, it took years and it was very, very
traumatic...so I have to watch getting that wild panic feeling that I can't
extricate myself from this situation and it's never going to happen and also
being able to confront him when he tries to heavy me, instead of retreating
and resenting him.
>
> personally i think he's got it made. and i think you could help
> him bloom here if he'd be willing to actually make a little effort
> to get things started. so i agree with you that it will be empowering,
> but _he_ has to be the one to choose that. forcing it just verifies
> whatever feelings of abandonment he might be feeling and drives him
> further into a corner.
>
>
> > > so i'm just kicking up ideas as they come to mind. if some makes
> > > sense and helps you then good. otherwise file in the circular file
> > > and keep on thinking about your specific situation.
> >
> > I guess I had rose colored glasses on for years because I didn't want to
see
> > anything that might mean I'd have to go through another break up and
> > subsequent runaway and hide scenario. Why can't they just let go? Be a
> > gentleman? Why is it such a struggle?
>
> he still loves you? i hope you don't have to run and hide,
> but i sure am not going to encourage you to stay if he's got
> a violence prone streak to him either.
He loves me apparently to the distraction of all else, but it just feels
like ownership to me.
>
>
> > Egal....
> > I thank you so much for your input....sometimes if I am only consulting
in
> > my own mind i wonder if my perception is flawed and it's good to have
> > another who has nothing to gain or lose bring in their perceptions.
>
> yeah, but i can only speak from what you have said here. i'm sure
> not seeing the whole story and his side of things. i can't guage much
> of his personality or abilities and i sure have no idea what it feels
> like when you two are in the same room together.
Funnily enough we get on ok and we don't fight...it's the Indonesian
speciality, to act like everything is fine while boiling away inside.....but
also, it takes a fair bit to keep me angry too, as long as he's not in my
face and he's respecting my right to some space, I feel easy with him
>
> all i know is that i see you wanting change and quick and i
> feel some regret that he hasn't been nudged towards being his
> own person in a stronger way.
Yes, I regret it too....I am reading the thread on boundaries and I have a
strong feeling that I have painted myself into this corner simply because I
have never been clear about where my boundaries were or indeed what they
were and then put them up suddenly with barbed wire on top and freaking him
out.
>
> i don't know that anything i've written is good because of
> that lack of culture and situation. i just hate to see all of
> you hurting and confused. i see him having potential for
> making his own life and giving him some backbone for a change
> and some loving and caring support from you might be a help
> you can offer him.
>
> i dunno. i suspect he's made some decision already now
> that he's going after the other chunk of land.
He's not interested in the chunk of land per se. He's just hoping that it
may keep me with him that's all....it's kind of a last ditch resort and I
don't think he is particularly proud of doing that. I have reasons that make
me think he could go for it though, because he hasn't always been totally
honest with money in the past but my main feeling is that it is a stress
reaction of trying to keep things the way they were.
i wish all of
> you some kind of happy arrangement.
Thank you....
i'm sure i don't know what
> that arrangement will be. work on the good stuff and the
> things that make it happy and right between you two. make
> music and laugh sometime. going on and on in serious mode and
> trying to force something along quickly without a break for
> being together and loving each other isn't going to give
> anyone any breaks so things can get pretty explosive
> emotionally.
>
> take care and try to help him along as much as you can.
>
>
> songbird
We still play lots of music and laugh in between bouts so I'm sure we can
be friends if like you say I try to be patient and communicate as best I can
so that I don't let things build up inside and I am ready to listen when he
wants to communicate...
Janma.....
*just given up smoking to top it off.*
>
Janma
>
>
> Jim Roberts wrote:
> >
> > Josh Jasper wrote:
> >
> > > Jim Roberts wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes, Ubud. Back when I was in grad school I used to read about it
in the Far
> > > > Eastern Economic Review. Others might sink money into a villa in
such a place,
> > > > but not me. I can't see rewarding people who run amok every
generation or so,
> > > > hacking their neighbors to bits with machetes.
> 0> > >
> > >
> > > happens.
> >
> > No, indeed, it does not.
>
>
> > I suggest that the gentleman read some eyewitness accounts
> > of the slaughter that has taken place there, the families hacked to bits
on the
> > roadside, whole neighborhoods emptied out.
It's true what Jim says, it was wholesale murder and quite unbelievable if
you see the balinese in day to day life....but there you go. But the fact
also remains that those riots were to rout out the Indonesian Communist
party from Indonesia and it was a paranoia reaction which in a big part was
fostered by the US who was in absolute cold war paranoia fit at the time had
handed the list of the leaders of this party to Soeharto and his mates so
starting one of the biggest murdering rampages seen in our time. (The USA
had quite allot to do with this whole event actually, but still there hands
were clean looking in the end...)
>
> I have. I just don't care to put my "race" or "culture" above them.
>
> > And he should recognize the denial that he
> > fosters.
> >
>
> Why have it here when we can export it wholesale, or hire outside
> contractors in Southamerica?
>
> > We have had some bad actions in America, but they were opposed by
significant elements
> > of society, documented, and have been the subject of considerable
self-examination.
>
> Then, we do it again.
>
> > Open a history text used in school here, and you can read about strange
fruit. Open a
> > history text in Bali, and the Chinese have simply vanished.
The Chinese have not vanished.....they have had a hard time, but nothing as
noteworthy as what the aboriginals and the American Indians have had to
face.
The Balinese are not much
> > given to self-examination, nor, indeed, have been the very murderous,
even genocidal,
> > American Indian societies. It is so nice to admire the noble savage.
> >
>
> I lived out there, you didn't. I never said I admired anyone.
>
> > I'm not at all proud of my Iroquois heritage, because despite their
democracy they
> > were a very organized and murderous lot.
>
> So, you're proud of the white heritage? Hah.
>
> > My wife's tribe, the Cherokee, were driven
> > out of the Iroquois Confederation, down into Carolina, in part because
they weren't
> > into genocide, such as annihilating the Huron, man woman and child.
> >
> > jimbat
>
> Whoop-de-doo. White people kill each other with just as much abandon,
> and cry crocodile tears.
Guys it's all just a matter of who can do it and get away with it I
think.....there are hardly any races or cultures in the world that would
pass up a bit of oppression or food chain climbing given the chance.....it's
a human condition....actually I think it's got allot to do with the Y
chromosone....but I probably shouldn't go there....
Janma.
*Ducking*
Jim Roberts
Janma wrote:
> "Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote in message
> news:393AD8C9...@jps.net...
[...]
>
> > > > Says the man who lives in America, where that sort of thing never
> > > > happens.
> > >
> > > No, indeed, it does not.
> >
> > Heh. Oh, you really are a kidder.
> >
> > > I suggest that the gentleman read some eyewitness accounts
> > > of the slaughter that has taken place there, the families hacked to bits
> on the
> > > roadside, whole neighborhoods emptied out.
>
> It's true what Jim says, it was wholesale murder and quite unbelievable if
> you see the balinese in day to day life....but there you go. But the fact
> also remains that those riots were to rout out the Indonesian Communist
> party from Indonesia and it was a paranoia reaction which in a big part was
> fostered by the US who was in absolute cold war paranoia fit at the time had
> handed the list of the leaders of this party to Soeharto and his mates so
> starting one of the biggest murdering rampages seen in our time. (The USA
> had quite allot to do with this whole event actually, but still there hands
> were clean looking in the end...)
>
The US gets a lot of blame for these things, unfairly. But in fact this
genocide wasn't really about communists. Sukarno could handle communists.
Hell, he could handle Jackie Kennedy. Yum. The genocide occurred in part from
hysteria, as the lady says - that's what amok means, loosely, in Malay - but
also out of sheer envy for the economic success of the rather closed society of
the Chinese. What is it that convinces people like the Indonesians, Russians,
Indians, Africans, and Germans that if they whack hundreds of thousands of
people whom they hardly know - handing them off to death, face to face - that
they will be better off?
I say that they learn it on their mothers' knees. You only need to see films of
German frauen (read "Frauen"!) chasing abused Jews through tiny streets, and to
see film of Bosnian Serb babushkas drawing their fingers across their throats as
bedraggled Muslim families trudge past to know where it all comes from.
Mothers are the root of all evil.
> >
> > I have. I just don't care to put my "race" or "culture" above them.
> >
They have to earn our respect. On the other hand, one can hand out peace prizes
to mass murderers, since all cultures and actions are equal once you abdicate
your moral standards. That way madness lies, and great evil.
[...]
> >
> > > Open a history text used in school here, and you can read about strange
> fruit. Open a
> > > history text in Bali, and the Chinese have simply vanished.
>
> The Chinese have not vanished.....they have had a hard time, but nothing as
> noteworthy as what the aboriginals and the American Indians have had to
> face.
In the books, in the books.
The abos and the Amerinds mostly died from disease, and, in the case of the
Indians, internecine warfare. Amerind culture was one of raiding and warfare.
The original colonists tried to get along with them peacefully, since they were
religious folk, mostly pacifist, but the Indians could not stop the raiding and
warfare of their hot young braves. This was the downfall of the Quakers in
Pennsylvania and the rise of Benjamin Franklin. The Quakers refused to defend
themselves and many thousands of peaceful settlers died in Indian massacres.
Finally, other whites like Franklin had enough and overthrew the Quaker
government and society.
White culture in America gradually went downhill as Britain and Germany shipped
out the poor and malcontents, not the religiously persecuted, plying them with
false promises of the wonders of the New World. We succumbed to the corruptions
of slavery and indentured servants. We perhaps reached our nadir at the time of
the rebellion against England, a completely misbegotten and unfair adventure.
Jimbat senses a rant coming on. Wife has retreated to the upper floors, perhaps
onto the roof. We drove out a large percentage of our most talented and
educated citizenry in the rebellion. They escaped to Ontario, Nova Scotia, and
New Brunswick, or back to England like Benedict Arnold, whom the incompetent
Washington cheated.
Aaaand, the Civil War was also a total waste. First, had we stayed British,
slavery would already have been abolished. Second, it would have died in short
order anyway, and the blacks would have been much better off without the
reaction against Reconstruction (Jim Crow). There is one, just one, thing that
AA has right: Easy Does It. It is so hard to stop a rant, once started. Whew!
It is very wrong to idealize American Indians. They were a brutal lot, and only
turned peaceful and Great Spirity when they were whupped, and divined that white
suckers liked that. Glorifying them is quite an industry. European/Mideast
culture *is* superior, except for the suckers and the PC amongst us.
I once did a huge amount of research for a screenplay about Lozen, the sister of
the chief Lucero/Victorio, the only known Apache woman to have full pride of
place with male warriors. There is much to admire in the heroic struggle of the
Chiricahua/Warm Springs to survive and much to hate in what we did to them. But
their fate was not completely undeserved. Even the pueblos called them "enemy",
the origin of the term "Apache". They called themselves Indeh = the people.
Actually, Americans were far kinder to them than Mexicans were. Victorio and
his whole band were slaughtered by Terrazas and his mob of Mexican lunatics
while we were looking for them to try to work something out. Lozen survived
because she stayed behind to help a mother with her birth in a cave.
>
>
> The Balinese are not much
> > > given to self-examination, nor, indeed, have been the very murderous,
> even genocidal,
> > > American Indian societies. It is so nice to admire the noble savage.
> > >
> >
> > I lived out there, you didn't. I never said I admired anyone.
>
Cop out. You don't know where I have lived, or are you tracking my marked
bills? Such very silly arrogance.
> >
> > > I'm not at all proud of my Iroquois heritage, because despite their
> democracy they
> > > were a very organized and murderous lot.
> >
> > So, you're proud of the white heritage? Hah.
> >
Yes. How many times can you read Black Elk Speaks, or the fancies of Balinese
animist-muslims? And how many times can you read Shakespeare and George
Eliot? Pushkin, Moliere, Homer, Plato, Newton, Einstein, Maimonides, Ibn
Khaldun - do I need to go on? I'm not saying that American Indians were fools.
They were very clever, but their society was extremely corrupt by what we would
call moral standards. It has led to nothing. It is bankrupt, ruptured and
empty.
>
> > > My wife's tribe, the Cherokee, were driven
> > > out of the Iroquois Confederation, down into Carolina, in part because
> they weren't
> > > into genocide, such as annihilating the Huron, man woman and child.
> > >
> > > jimbat
> >
> > Whoop-de-doo. White people kill each other with just as much abandon,
> > and cry crocodile tears.
>
What nonsense. What crocodile tears we have a Yad Vashem! You wouldn't know a
crocodile tear if you saw one. But you might know Lou's Lunch Room. Lou had a
place in the Everglades where he took people who had cheated him. The gators
knew the sound of his car and came running. On the other hand, you wouldn't
know, or you wouldn't be posting nonsense, Josh. Gators, not crocodiles, and
not gaiters either.
>
> Guys it's all just a matter of who can do it and get away with it I
> think.....there are hardly any races or cultures in the world that would
> pass up a bit of oppression or food chain climbing given the chance.....it's
> a human condition....actually I think it's got allot to do with the Y
> chromosone....but I probably shouldn't go there....
>
> Janma.
>
> *Ducking*
Quaaaaaccck. Good one, Janma.
There is always evil in the world. We have much in common with the lions and
hyenas that used to eat us, and do still eat a few, not to speak of the hippos.
We know that innocent people will succumb to violence, disease, and stupidity.
Most conceptions do not result in births. We must always struggle toward the
light. Titanics and Bismarcks go down (odd spelling for German), Hiroshimas
vaporize. Wise people will commit war crimes.
What we must fight against is organized violence and the prejudices and naivete
that make that possible. This is something that Josh has yet to learn.
jimbat
Jim Roberts
you think might desert you, or that you might desert, if what you say is to be
believed.
Janma wrote:
> "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote in message
> news:G5y_4.8480$AW3.3...@nntp3.onemain.com...
> >
> > "Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote in message
> news:Cpu_4.1964$K8.13908@news...
> > > "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote in message
> > > news:kEf_4.6115$bH5.2...@nntp1.onemain.com...
> > > > "Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote:
> > > > ...negative thoughts...
> >
Very negative, but are they real?
[...]
>
> He is trying to get to a comfortable place on all this, and as long as he
> can imagine that we are still 'together' and still a family..he is willing
> to consider living separately.
Who is fooling whom here? I could not imagine living like that, but I have,
without knowing it. Ignorance does hurt you.
>
> >
> > if you can get him to talk about his fears and if you can listen
> > beyond financial worrys from a spot of loving and caring then it
> > might work out.
>
> It's not really just financial worries as much as a feeling of 'it's not
> fair.' I know that sounds childish....but when I really needed him to be
> there for us when our financial worries were really severe, he wasn't
> interested, and finally I have made a business that runs and supports us and
> saved to buy this land and then used an inheritence from my mother to build
> the house and he starts using it as a means to control me....I get mad
> because it's not fair....not because I'm so scared to lose the house, though
> I wouldn't be happy, it's a given in this world that there is a risk of
> losing things....it's something I thought of when I built it to begin with,
> it's just rebelling against the attitude.
>
You have to keep your fat little grubbies on your own money, even if you are
sewn together at the shorthairs. I invest our money, but my wife doesn't always
take my advice on hers - or rather she is slow to take it - and I don't always
take mine, to my deep regret. I have no idea what her password is, but she
knows mine, since she has to give me computer help. Yes, the jimbat has little
shit fits when software does not do what he wants. She always knows exactly
where we are week by week.
>
> however, someone driven into a corner and feeling
> > threatened isn't going to feel any agreement is positive. i think
> > you're both feeling like that since there is little speaking of
> > "ours" but it is all about "mine" and "his." so i can see why he's
> > getting obsessive about losing you. psychologically it's already
> > happening. short of working on together things again i don't
> > see how he'd have reason to change those fears into something
> > where instead of losing you he is sharing you. (the "my house"
> > comment really drove that home to me and probably to him too.)
>
That's correct. A moral person can do alarming things when feeling threatened.
Which reminds me. Goering was asked at Nuremberg how he was so successful at
mobilizing the Germans. He said, simple, you might wonder why a mother or
father would want to send their eldest son into battle when the best you can
hope for is for him to be wounded: you just have to tell them that they are
being attacked; then they'll do anything. (I paraphrase)
>
> Yeah, I know that being aggressive and getting into the mine and yours thing
> is just making it worse....sometimes however when I am being loving to him
> he just crashes back in past my newly erected boundaries like time to
> myself, my body to myself, because he thinks that it's all gone back to
> normal. It's hard to talk to him too, because he is not much of a talker and
> worse still not much of a listener.
>
Well, there you have it, don't you? What's the future in that?
[...]
> am helping him to make the transisition by doing this, if I do more
> besides being hard on him when he becomes aggressive and being positive when
> he's not then I am doing what I have been doing for the last 10
> years....over functioning for him and I don't want to keep that pattern
> going....
10 years, 10 years!!? I carried a wife on my back emotionally for 9 years, but
had no way out, since we had kids. She in the end had no such scruples. It is
not good to be a victim, nor is it to be an abuser.
> He has to want to do it for himself, and then actually do it. For
> ten years he's been saying "soon I'll get it together, just after this is
> finished or that's happened, or don't rush me, I like to go at my own
> pace...etc." And I would say, (as one not having had the luxury of 'going at
> my own pace' because I had to feed us and pay school fee's and send his
> father money every month etc), that I'm hearing you say this year after year
> and I'm not happy, but I don't like to nag and I don't like to talk to a
> wall, so just know that one day, I will get to the point where I've had
> enough, and then don't act surprised....." So now he is surprised....
>
This doesn't work. In ten years you can live a lifetime. So if is booted away,
the life is booted away. No excuses.
>
> can you really
> > be there for him during this as he was for you?
> I need to think of the times when he was there for me.....because at the
> moment I am boiling with resentment that he wasn't there for me, in my view,
> until I wanted to separate. Now, he is very diligent in helping out
> finishing the house off and taking the kids to school etc....It makes me so
> mad that he spent 10 years putting zero energy into this relationship and
> then turning around when I've had enough and saying...."You are tearing our
> family apart." If he can acknowledge how I feel and see his part in all
> that's happened that will go a long way to making me feel loving and
> supportive again. At present I'm really at the point where I am
> saying....."you give me a reason to want to work on this..."
>
When someone is there for you through a crisis, you owe them a couple of years,
in my accounting, but not more. Every bit that they suck out of you subtracts
from that time.
[...]
>
> I know that I have to come from a loving perspective, this is hard because I
> feel such a panic about the whole process. My first husband was a maniac
> when I tried to leave him, it took years and it was very, very
> traumatic...so I have to watch getting that wild panic feeling that I can't
> extricate myself from this situation and it's never going to happen and also
> being able to confront him when he tries to heavy me, instead of retreating
> and resenting him.
>
We may have a pattern here? You may attract men who have a fear of abandonment,
since you are caring. Is this the panic to which you respond? I have this
fear, because od the chaos in my early childhood. It took me a while to
recognize this syndrome, and the havoc it created, but my wife sees it now.
> >
> > personally i think he's got it made. and i think you could help
> > him bloom here if he'd be willing to actually make a little effort
> > to get things started. so i agree with you that it will be empowering,
> > but _he_ has to be the one to choose that. forcing it just verifies
> > whatever feelings of abandonment he might be feeling and drives him
> > further into a corner.
> >
> >
I don't agree, but what do I know?
[...]
jimbat
Jim Roberts
attributions.
Josh Jasper wrote:
[duh]
jimbat
Stef Maruch
>st...@baygate.bayarea.net (Stef Maruch) writes:
>
>>Oh, Yiddish "schmutz" = English "smut"?
>
>>I still really like "beschmuzzled," but I guess we can do without a
>>noun form.
>
>Why deprive ourselves? Beschmuzzlement. English at its finest.
*Stef sighs with profound happiness*
So, where should we start seeding it next?
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three"
-- Mark Statzer (via Eric C. Weaver)
Jim Roberts
too tasty to pass up.
Josh Jasper wrote:
> Jim Roberts wrote:
> >
> > A thoughtful and partially informed reply. (by Janma)
> >
> > Janma wrote:
> >
> > > "Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote
> [snip]
>
> > > >
> > > > I have. I just don't care to put my "race" or "culture" above them.
> > > >
> >
> > They have to earn our respect.
>
> I've been telling you that for a while. You seem not to care.
>
No, they haven't earned my respect. Pay attention.
> [...]
>
> >
> > It is very wrong to idealize American Indians. They were a brutal lot, and only
> > turned peaceful and Great Spirity when they were whupped, and divined that white
> > suckers liked that. Glorifying them is quite an industry. European/Mideast
> > culture *is* superior, except for the suckers and the PC amongst us.
>
> Western culture glorifies it's self even more than it glorifies American
> Indians. Shakespeare glorified war and anti-Semitism.
>
"it's self" for sure, you ignoramus. Whatever delusional impulse brought you to the
idea that you could stand toe to toe with me? Have you no sense of self-preservation?
Shakespeare did not glorify anti-Semitism. Your reading of the Merchant of Venice is
mistaken. *No one* else in England at that time, as far as I know, was writing about
Jews, since they had been expelled. He took a chance, as did George Eliot with Daniel
Deronda. I suggest that you do your research.
As for War, consider Falstaff. Don't forget that Will had to sell his plays at court,
and it wasn't a pacific time.
[...]
> >
> >
> > Cop out. You don't know where I have lived, or are you tracking my marked
> > bills? Such very silly arrogance.
> >
>
> So, you did? Your previous histories don't seem to recount it.
Do I tell every idiot everything? So, you are now are an expert on my history. Where
all did I live before the age of 7? If you do well with that, we can go on.
>
> You've been remarkably honest about your life history. Did I
> miss you living anywhere near Southeast Asia?
>
your - the gerund needs the possessive, as it is a noun phrase
Perhaps.
[...]
>
> As is ours. Perhaps differently, but you've never been much of an
> influence on my way of thinking.
We might call that "thinking".
>
>
> > What we must fight against is organized violence and the prejudices and naivete
> > that make that possible. This is something that Josh has yet to learn.
> >
>
> You still don't know much about what I do in my spare time. I
> don't know what you do in yours. I just don't make any
> assumptions, as you do about me. From what you've said, you
> contribute time and effort to what I think are worthy causes.
> Do you know one way or the other that I do or don't? Just what
> the hell DO you know about me, and my efforts fighting against
> organized violence and prejudice? Do you just get off on feeling
> superior to me without checking first?
>
Try me. I do know that you don't know English. Do I need to know anything else? You
betray much more than you know when you post. It's not true that on the Internet no
one knows you're a dog, not that you are - it's a cartoon.
My wife and I give only a couple thou a year to charities, since we are hoarding our
money for retirement, and I do well with it. Then, we will give.
"Do you just get off on feeling superior to me without checking first?" Yes and no. I
get off on being superior to you, but I don't need to check. Was that honest enough?
jimbat
Liz W
In article <3931BB4B...@death.org.uk>, astral alice <
al...@death.org.uk> wrote:
>How about 'metamory', derived from a love of loving?
>It works well because it also has the form metamour, which means
>instead of saying your partner's partner or sweetie's sweetie,
you can
>say 'my metamour', as in "I'd like you to meet my partner, my
paramour
>and my metamour".
I like metamour - I've been looking for a good word to describe
people I'm related to in that way. Metamory doesn't work quite
as
well for me, but I'd go along with piranha's suggestion of using
"frubbliness/frubbly" for everyday speech and "meatamory/
metamourous" for academic contexts.
Liz W (who's expecting one of her metamours to turn up for lunch
any minute now)
ehw at gouldens dot com
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Janma
"Jim Roberts" <jim...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:393B422C...@bellatlantic.net...
> Well, there was some deletion, but maybe not fatal - my mistake. But this
was just
> too tasty to pass up.
>
> Josh Jasper wrote:
>
> > Jim Roberts wrote:
> > >
It was also only partially thoughtful.....
> > >
> > > Janma wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have. I just don't care to put my "race" or "culture" above
them.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > They have to earn our respect.
> >
> > I've been telling you that for a while. You seem not to care.
> >
>
> No, they haven't earned my respect. Pay attention.
>
> > [...]
> >
> > >
> > > It is very wrong to idealize American Indians. They were a brutal
lot, and only
> > > turned peaceful and Great Spirity when they were whupped, and divined
that white
> > > suckers liked that. Glorifying them is quite an industry.
I said something like that at a talking circle in Bali which a leader of a
tribe from Vancouver Island Canadian natives started at a gathering here. I
was really unpopular with everyone there. (surprisingly more with the white
people.) The circle was a funny combination of toe licking and righteous
indignation and I just didn't see why there must be such a guilt complex
handed down to generations of the white people of Canada and a victim
complex handed down to generations of native people because 200 years ago
Europeans decided they liked bread made from the wheat grown in Canada. A
lot of things happened and most people didn't understand the impact of their
actions on the future, or on all parties involved. Not like us today who
have access to copious amounts of information on what we are doing to this
planet and the impact we are having on everyone who is in it..... And
doesn't this tribal chief use paper? And hasn't he watched the film Emerald
Forest? And doesn't his use of paper somewhere along the line affect the
life of another native person elsewhere, even to this day and with all the
information available to us?
snippping all that bit.....
> your - the gerund needs the possessive, as it is a noun phrase
>
> Perhaps.
>
> [...]
I haven't worked out what those brackety things mean yet....
>
> >
>
> Try me. I do know that you don't know English. Do I need to know
anything else? You
> betray much more than you know when you post. It's not true that on the
Internet no
> one knows you're a dog, not that you are - it's a cartoon.
>
> My wife and I give only a couple thou a year to charities, since we are
hoarding our
> money for retirement, and I do well with it. Then, we will give.
>
> "Do you just get off on feeling superior to me without checking first?"
Yes and no. I
> get off on being superior to you, but I don't need to check. Was that
honest enough?
Aw....and here I am waiting with baited breath to get told off by Jimbat for
my 'there hands were looking clean in the end' transgression.....
Janma.
*disappointed...*
Jim Roberts
Glad that you were far enough from the quake and in the land shadow for any
tsunami. Bali is red on my Global Seismic Hazard Map. May your stocks rise,
but not your water.
Janma wrote:
> "Jim Roberts" <jim...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> news:393B422C...@bellatlantic.net...
>
[...] this is called an ellipsis, which means that stuff has been deleted
> > Well, there was some deletion, but maybe not fatal - my mistake. But this
> was just
> > too tasty to pass up.
> >
> > Josh Jasper wrote:
> >
> > > Jim Roberts wrote:
> > > >
> > > > A thoughtful and partially informed reply. (by Janma)
>
> It was also only partially thoughtful.....
The lady is far too modest... oh, I hoooope not... (old astronaut joke from the
60s - Jose Jimenez, the reluctant astronaut)
[...]
>
> I said something like that at a talking circle in Bali which a leader of a
> tribe from Vancouver Island Canadian natives started at a gathering here. I
> was really unpopular with everyone there. (surprisingly more with the white
> people.)
There has been a serious rise in moronity among whites.
> The circle was a funny combination of toe licking and righteous
> indignation and I just didn't see why there must be such a guilt complex
> handed down to generations of the white people of Canada and a victim
> complex handed down to generations of native people because 200 years ago
> Europeans decided they liked bread made from the wheat grown in Canada.
Yes, the Tlingit or the Haida. Their art and their legends are very moving.
This is priceless. You are a very funny lady. I went through a brief period of
guilt about what happened to the American Indians, the Jews, and black slaves
many years ago. But I went back through my family history to find out what our
responsibility was. On one side (Kaufmann) were were German pig farmers from
Preussen-Sachsen who came up the Mississippi to Iowa in 1847, on another
Scottish indentured servants (Robertson) who worked the plantations in North
Carolina and Alabama, and on yet another (Mann) were those who formed an
idealistic commune in Alabama in the 1800s. No one rode against the Indians,
held slaves, nor persecuted Jews. There's no record even of participation in
the Civil War. I even have a relative who went to Germany to find if we had any
SS relatives, and came up with nothing. (The US archives were closed to him.)
I've paid my taxes (almost always), supported worthy causes, and always voted
Democratic, except for some excursions into the Socialist Workers Party in their
heyday (they now seem to have been taken over by Japanese). So, where's my
guilt? I've even had the obligatory horrifying experience in Hattiesburg,
Mississippi.
Not that everyone in the families is enlightened. The Kaufmanns just got their
second PhD in recorded history, after me. So we are celebrating that.
> A lot of things happened and most people didn't understand the impact of their
>
> actions on the future, or on all parties involved.
Yes, most were just trying to survive. Times were hard, and the future not
guaranteed. It is easy now in hindsight to judge, especially when we
selectively forget a lot of things that were foremost in everyone's minds back
then.
How do you understand all this? What is your background?
> Not like us today who
> have access to copious amounts of information on what we are doing to this
> planet and the impact we are having on everyone who is in it..... And
> doesn't this tribal chief use paper? And hasn't he watched the film Emerald
> Forest? And doesn't his use of paper somewhere along the line affect the
> life of another native person elsewhere, even to this day and with all the
> information available to us?
>
That's nothing. These tribes used to be so rich that they had potlatch to
destroy all their belongings in a show of wealth, something that white settlers
would never have done. Their ancestors also caused mass extinctions on the
North American continent. The more you learn, the more you have to say, folks
just get your act together, and stop blaming everyone else for your problems.
> > [...]
>
> I haven't worked out what those brackety things mean yet....
ellipses
[...]
>
> Aw....and here I am waiting with baited breath to get told off by Jimbat for
> my 'there hands were looking clean in the end' transgression.....
> Janma.
> *disappointed...*
If you want a spanking, I can give it. It's bated breath, not baited
(homonyms). A woman with baited breath only catches the shark, but a woman with
bated breath might catch a real man, or a very corrupt hobbit. Yessss,
preciousssss.
jimbat
barbara trumpinski-roberts
> }Janma.
> }*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
>
> Just think of it as love with a multi-user license.
>
> RJ
polyamory(def): love with a multi-user license.
thank you RJ....that's going in my journal and on my wall.
hugs,
kitten
/\ /\ 'a good marriage is one of the most worthwhile
{=.=} things a human can make.' spider robinson
~ kit...@uiuc.edu
http://members.tripod.com/~barbarakitten smotu
Sean
> > > Jim Roberts wrote:
> > > > It is very wrong to idealize American Indians. They were a brutal
> lot, and only
> > > > turned peaceful and Great Spirity when they were whupped, and divined
> that white
> > > > suckers liked that. Glorifying them is quite an industry.
But wasp people do it because they themselves got whupped by he Normans
back around the 11th centurey (or close to it). All of a sudden they
came up with this idea that all races should have their rights. People
are getting the idea again, now, and even boworring Indian ideas to
suppliment the Arthurian ones. I'll blame neither the Indian nor the
wasp who honestly does that. I'll participate in glorifying any one
human that does it.
> I said something like that at a talking circle in Bali which a leader of a
> tribe from Vancouver Island Canadian natives started at a gathering here. I
> was really unpopular with everyone there. (surprisingly more with the white
> people.) The circle was a funny combination of toe licking and righteous
> indignation and I just didn't see why there must be such a guilt complex
> handed down to generations of the white people of Canada and a victim
> complex handed down to generations of native people because 200 years ago
> Europeans decided they liked bread made from the wheat grown in Canada. A
> lot of things happened and most people didn't understand the impact of their
> actions on the future, or on all parties involved. Not like us today who
> have access to copious amounts of information on what we are doing to this
> planet and the impact we are having on everyone who is in it..... And
The rational mind still can't understand the force of life that creates
it and gives it it's impetous to live. Even with copious amounts of
information. The feelings can though... ;)
> doesn't this tribal chief use paper? And hasn't he watched the film Emerald
> Forest? And doesn't his use of paper somewhere along the line affect the
What's "Emerald Forrest"? Is it Indonesian? What year did it come out?
> life of another native person elsewhere, even to this day and with all the
> information available to us?
[snip]
> > Perhaps.
> >
> > [...]
>
> I haven't worked out what those brackety things mean yet....
Well, let's see. ... is an elipsis which stands for a pause in the
thought-train of a sentence, or that some words have been deleted. ....
means sentences have been deleteled and ..... means paragraphs have
been. You can use a dash - for a dramatic pause, too.
Brackets are enclosed around a rewording of something, and people
sometimes use them on here like this:
[much good stuff from Janma snipped]
To indicate that material from the post has been deleted.
(You can also use brackets as an additional layer of parenthesis [but
I'm the only one I've seen actually *do* it])
I try to do my own snipping when I write a post. The whole thing can be
really long as my feelings come out of me, then I'll condense whole
paragraphs into sentences and rearrange the order in an attempt to say
what I want to say in exactly the right amount of words, neither too
many nor too few. Then it can be snipped even further if I get a reply,
since it's then only being used as a memory-jog. I think any really
long post should have it's premise in the first paragraph and a little
summary in the last, but I don't seem to follow the rule, myself :)
So I think Jim The Bat might be saying that he's snipped some of Josh's
post, re-worded it into a one-sentence description, then substituted the
breif description with ...
Yeah, that seems like the way Jim would do something :)
*Oh*, and you can use asterisks to place stress on a whole word and
underlines to stretch it _oouutt_. Like *this*: _stretch_, or like
this too: streyeach. :)
And if you ever should feel the need to be excessively dramatic, you can
start talking. Like. This. Un. til. You. Feel. You've. made your point.
Maybe you'll come up with a new way of emphasizing words?
[snip Jim's arrogant stuff]
Can't have everything.
> Janma.
Sean, hoping this post is optimized
Josh Jasper
Jim Roberts wrote:
>
> Well, there was some deletion, but maybe not fatal - my mistake. But this was just
> too tasty to pass up.
>
> Josh Jasper wrote:
>
> > Jim Roberts wrote:
> > >
> > > A thoughtful and partially informed reply. (by Janma)
> > >
> > > Janma wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote
> > [snip]
> >
[snip]
This is the important part to me. The rest is too silly for me to
concern myself about.
> >
> >
> > > What we must fight against is organized violence and the prejudices and naivete
> > > that make that possible. This is something that Josh has yet to learn.
> > >
> >
> > You still don't know much about what I do in my spare time. I
> > don't know what you do in yours. I just don't make any
> > assumptions, as you do about me. From what you've said, you
> > contribute time and effort to what I think are worthy causes.
> > Do you know one way or the other that I do or don't? Just what
> > the hell DO you know about me, and my efforts fighting against
> > organized violence and prejudice? Do you just get off on feeling
> > superior to me without checking first?
> >
>
> Try me. I do know that you don't know English. Do I need to know anything else? You
> betray much more than you know when you post. It's not true that on the Internet no
> one knows you're a dog, not that you are - it's a cartoon.
>
> My wife and I give only a couple thou a year to charities, since we are hoarding our
> money for retirement, and I do well with it. Then, we will give.
I know. For that, I might respect you.
>
> "Do you just get off on feeling superior to me without checking first?" Yes and no. I
> get off on being superior to you, but I don't need to check. Was that honest enough?
>
And for that, you loose any respect I might have had for you.
I suspect most people here feel much the same way. Now that I
know that you have decided that you are superior to me, that it
makes you feel good, and that you feel you didn't have to check
first, I can say for sure that you are unworthy of my respect.
At least I bothered to check. I shan't be replying to you any
more.
Jim Roberts
Josh Jasper wrote:
> Jim Roberts wrote:
[...]
> >
> > Josh Jasper wrote:
> >
> > > Jim Roberts wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> This is the important part to me. The rest is too silly for me to
> concern myself about.
>
Not enough sin in it, sinboy? How you choose what is important to you says a lot, not just
what else you write.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > What we must fight against is organized violence and the prejudices and naivete
> > > > that make that possible. This is something that Josh has yet to learn.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You still don't know much about what I do in my spare time. I
> > > don't know what you do in yours. I just don't make any
> > > assumptions, as you do about me.
What I see is your ignorance, your determination to hold onto that, and the emptiness of
your posts. What else do I need to know?
>
> And for that, you loose any respect I might have had for you.
lose. When you lose respect for a gentleman, spell it correctly.
>
> I suspect most people here feel much the same way. Now that I
> know that you have decided that you are superior to me, that it
> makes you feel good, and that you feel you didn't have to check
> first, I can say for sure that you are unworthy of my respect.
>
Oh, my. You are the one who brought the whole subject up. I had confined myself to factual
matters, which you determined were too silly for your attention. Instead you chose personal
attacks. You got what you deserved.
I rarely whack someone for their English unless they have said a lot of stupid things.
jimbat
Jim Roberts
Janma wrote:
[...]
> Janma.
> *disappointed...* <no more, I hope>
Since I was accused in this thread, by the Josh, not by Janma, of complicity in
genocide for the misfortunes of Australian Aborigines and American Indians, I
thought the following bit of info might be useful.
I've been interested in Abo art and culture for a while, and wanted to go to the
outback last month to buy some art before the Olympics made it all frightfully
expensive, but bad stock market behavior led to a change of plans. I think that
Abo art may be the only really original art on the planet right now, with the
possible exception of Inuit sculpture, which is in decline.
So, anyways, a gallery for Abo art that I like a lot, Gallery Songlines in SF,
has recently upgraded its web site, www.aboriginal-art.com. Anyone interested
in Abo art and culture will like it very much. The curator, David Betz, is
quite a scholar of the art.
jimbat
RJ
}> }Janma.
}> }*still struggling for an understanding of polyamoury*
}>
}> Just think of it as love with a multi-user license.
}>
}> RJ
}
}polyamory(def): love with a multi-user license.
}
}thank you RJ....that's going in my journal and on my wall.
I should compile all of these in my own book and print them as
samplers and make a ortune as "Hallmark for poly people." ;-)
You are welcome, Kitten.
RJ
umar
>Now that I know that you have decided that you are superior to me...
His statement to that effect is not credible. He doesn't know you; he
can only judge the person he imagines you to be.
You need not worry that anyone with any sense will put much stock in such
assertions.
umar
Heather Anne Nicoll
> Most of the political, military, and business leaders remembered in our
> histories are male. Whenever one class of people dominates another, it is
> tempting to imagine that members of the downtrodden class would do less
> violence if they had power. On gaining it, however, they almost invariably
> turn out to be just as ugly as their former masters. Are women as a class
> any different? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Women as a class scare me more than men as a class.
I prefer dealing with the standard ways males mangle other people to the
standard ways females mangle other people. I've found that women, when
they break out the knives in social situations, use serrated ones and go
for the back.
I tend to be wary of any situation where the <fill in group here> is in
charge, dominant, or otherwise running things at the expense of <those
who aren't in the group>.
--
Heather Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.dslonramp.net/~darkhawk/
Love is an act of blood
And I'm bleeding - Dream Theater, "Space Dye Vest"
A pool in the shape of a heart
Josh Jasper
Oh, I don't. I never did. Don't fret yourself about that. Thanks
for the advice.
umar
>Who knows, you may be right. Humanity certainly has stopped
>surprising me in it's capacity for mass insanity. To be honest,
>I don't care if it's a Y chromosome thing. That doesn't change
>things. I've got serious doubts they ever will change.
I don't think it has anything to do with Y chromosomes.
Most of the political, military, and business leaders remembered in our
histories are male. Whenever one class of people dominates another, it is
tempting to imagine that members of the downtrodden class would do less
violence if they had power. On gaining it, however, they almost invariably
turn out to be just as ugly as their former masters. Are women as a class
any different? Maybe, but I doubt it.
umar
Karl Ross Greenley
compersi.. by Liz W...@gouldens.com.inval
No no no... that's an expression of how much you like sirloin steak :)
songbird
"Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote in message news:DhP_4.1994$K8.14341@news...
> "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
... <- i use ...'s to mark places where i've deleted stuff
> > > > he's not in any position of equality to negotiate from.
>
> On the contrary he has quite a position to negotiate from, it's just what
> he's doing too.
you actually think that he could keep everything he has if you
left without looking back? you have enough wealth and he has
enough brains to keep it? my guess is no, that he'd eventually
piddle it away. (unless he's got some smart and honest friends
who won't take advantage of his lack of financial acumen) think
about it the way it would be for him if you left and if he'd
survive in such a fine standard of living as he has now? would
your business last long without you there?
...
> > he still loves you? i hope you don't have to run and hide,
> > but i sure am not going to encourage you to stay if he's got
> > a violence prone streak to him either.
>
> He loves me apparently to the distraction of all else, but it just feels
> like ownership to me.
i think i could argue that he's the one being owned here. that
however doesn't change the imbalance between you two. hopefully
in time that will change.
...
> > yeah, but i can only speak from what you have said here. i'm sure
> > not seeing the whole story and his side of things. i can't guage much
> > of his personality or abilities and i sure have no idea what it feels
> > like when you two are in the same room together.
>
> Funnily enough we get on ok and we don't fight...it's the Indonesian
> speciality, to act like everything is fine while boiling away inside.....but
> also, it takes a fair bit to keep me angry too, as long as he's not in my
> face and he's respecting my right to some space, I feel easy with him
well that is good then. so you don't fear violence from him, that
is what i was worried about. then again i'm not quite sure what
you mean by "to heavy me" other than perhaps trying to guilt trip
you.
> > all i know is that i see you wanting change and quick and i
> > feel some regret that he hasn't been nudged towards being his
> > own person in a stronger way.
>
> Yes, I regret it too....I am reading the thread on boundaries and I have a
> strong feeling that I have painted myself into this corner simply because I
> have never been clear about where my boundaries were or indeed what they
> were and then put them up suddenly with barbed wire on top and freaking him
> out.
yeah.
...
> > i dunno. i suspect he's made some decision already now
> > that he's going after the other chunk of land.
> He's not interested in the chunk of land per se. He's just hoping that it
> may keep me with him that's all....it's kind of a last ditch resort and I
> don't think he is particularly proud of doing that. I have reasons that make
> me think he could go for it though, because he hasn't always been totally
> honest with money in the past but my main feeling is that it is a stress
> reaction of trying to keep things the way they were.
well that is what you want right (him living nearby, but not with)?
...
> We still play lots of music and laugh in between bouts so I'm sure we can
> be friends if like you say I try to be patient and communicate as best I can
> so that I don't let things build up inside and I am ready to listen when he
> wants to communicate...
that is a plan. :)
> Janma.....
> *just given up smoking to top it off.*
good luck with that too,
songbird
astral alice
>
> it's not quite like liana described; i don't feel through
> or in a particular language (i don't think in any parti-
> cular one either), but if i am trying to express certain
> things, some languages are better at it than others, for
> me. german is real good for loud, aggressive anger. :-)
Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native language,
the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
Sorry, completely irrelevant question: just something I was wondering.
alice.
--
* astral alice: bi, poly, goth | http://www.death.org.uk *
* alice on Surfers | telnet://surfers.org 4242 *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* What's the name of the word for things not being the same always? You *
* know... the thing that lets you know time is happening? - The Sandman *
Ryk
wrote:
>Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
>speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native language,
>the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
I was never really fluent, but I knew I was in trouble when I started
dreaming in German.....
Ryk
Freyja
astral alice <al...@death.org.uk> wrote in message
news:393D8C5C...@death.org.uk...
|
| Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
| speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native
language,
| the language of the country you live in, or a language you've
learned?
It depends on the dream. If I am traveling out of the country, I
don't dream in English. The same phenomenon holds if I have had to do
a translating job that day; that language will be the one I dream in.
More than one job will mess me up; I had trouble with speaking in
Spanish one day because I talked with a Norwegian friend of mine
earlier that day. I apologized and explained that my brain was
speaking Norwegian when I wanted it to speak Spanish.
(norsk->engelsk->spansk) (messy and slow thought process!)
--
Freyja
(de-spam e-mail addy)
Liana Olear
: piranha wrote:
: >
: > it's not quite like liana described; i don't feel through
: > or in a particular language (i don't think in any parti-
: > cular one either), but if i am trying to express certain
: > things, some languages are better at it than others, for
: > me. german is real good for loud, aggressive anger. :-)
: Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
: speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native language,
: the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
Any. I think mostly in English. I have dreamt in Russian, in English, in
French a few times (at least one of them before I actually knew French,
but I understood everything) and at least once in a language I didn't know
at all but with subtitles in a language I _knew_ but couldn't tell you
which one. I've also had bilingual, trilingual and poorly dubbed dreams
on occasion.
Liana
Aahz Maruch
astral alice <al...@death.org.uk> wrote:
>
>Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
>speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native language,
>the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
What about those of us with silent dreams?
--
--- Aahz (Copyright 2000 by aa...@netcom.com)
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
"You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing --
at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of
snow." -- PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f
Kathleen Wishart
I am new here, but I was interested in posting my .02 on this one. I asked
my stepmother once about something like this (she has been deaf since
birth). I was curious if she was ever able to "hear" in her dreams. To my
amazement, she said that she has had a few dreams in which she has been able
to hear.
A bit about myself. I am a 30 year old woman, with 2 children (ages 10 and
8). At the moment I do not have a romantic relationship at all, however I
left a triad last year. The breakup of the triad relationship was one of
the hardest things that I ever had to do, but was necessary. My co-wife was
having some severe mental problems, and refused to get help. The last straw
came, when I got pregnant, and she accused me of "stealing her child from
her womb" (she wanted desperatly to have a baby). I truly miss the dynamics
of the poly family, and I hope one day to find the right person/people to
share my life with once again.
Best wishes,
Kathleen
"Liana Olear" <li...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:8hlrba$4e8$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> astral alice <al...@death.org.uk> writes:
> : piranha wrote:
> : >
> : > it's not quite like liana described; i don't feel through
> : > or in a particular language (i don't think in any parti-
> : > cular one either), but if i am trying to express certain
> : > things, some languages are better at it than others, for
> : > me. german is real good for loud, aggressive anger. :-)
>
> : Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
> : speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native
language,
> : the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
>
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
>On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:42:20 +0100, astral alice <al...@death.org.uk>
>wrote:
>>Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
>>speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native language,
>>the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
>I was never really fluent, but I knew I was in trouble when I started
>dreaming in German.....
Why trouble? I couldn't have been fluent, because there was nobody to
talk to, but I used to dream in classical Greek. In Homeric
hexameters, even, complete with the epic boilerplate slotted in
repeatedly. This structure actually fits dream logic pretty well.
I dreamt in Euripidean verse a couple of times, too, but Aeschylus's
verse was way beyond me and my unconscious mind together.
--
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pd...@demesne.com)
"I will open my heart to a blank page
and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World"
bearpaw
>
>astral alice <al...@death.org.uk> wrote:
>>Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
>>speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native language,
>>the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
>
Dream on, buddy.
Bearpaw
--
~~~~~~~~~~~ bea...@aq.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I think that I shall never see, A billboard lovely as a tree.
Indeed, unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all."
- Ogden Nash
Josh Jasper
Janma wrote:
>
> "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote in message
> news:5Fj%4.10604$AW3.5...@nntp3.onemain.com...
> >
> > "Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote in message
> news:DhP_4.1994$K8.14341@news...
> > > "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > ... <- i use ...'s to mark places where i've deleted stuff
> >
> > > > > > he's not in any position of equality to negotiate from.
> > >
> > > On the contrary he has quite a position to negotiate from, it's just
> what
> > > he's doing too.
> >
> > you actually think that he could keep everything he has if you
> > left without looking back? you have enough wealth and he has
> > enough brains to keep it? my guess is no, that he'd eventually
> > piddle it away. (unless he's got some smart and honest friends
> > who won't take advantage of his lack of financial acumen) think
> > about it the way it would be for him if you left and if he'd
> > survive in such a fine standard of living as he has now? would
> > your business last long without you there?
>
> If I didn't know better, I would look for you on the wall! Where are you?
> *looking under desk*
Have you considered trying to find him a few smart, honest
friends? Ones who also have a sympathetic ear to your
problems? I know Balinese culture is pretty much stacked
in his favor, but is it possible there's someone out there
who'd listen to you, listen to him, and tell him what he
needs to hear in order for him to let you be free from him?
Perhaps it's asking for too much, and it sounds like "Now
wave a magic wand and fix things", but there might be someone
who'd agree with you AND who he'd listen to. I dunno.
Louise
>A bit about myself. I am a 30 year old woman, with 2 children (ages 10 and
>8). At the moment I do not have a romantic relationship at all, however I
>left a triad last year. The breakup of the triad relationship was one of
>the hardest things that I ever had to do, but was necessary. My co-wife was
>having some severe mental problems, and refused to get help. The last straw
>came, when I got pregnant, and she accused me of "stealing her child from
>her womb" (she wanted desperatly to have a baby). I truly miss the dynamics
>of the poly family, and I hope one day to find the right person/people to
>share my life with once again.
Welcome to alt.polyamory, Kathleen! That sounds like a tough one.
Louise
Josh Jasper
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> Ryk <r...@home.com> writes:
>
> >On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:42:20 +0100, astral alice <al...@death.org.uk>
> >wrote:
>
> >>Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
> >>speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native language,
> >>the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
>
> >I was never really fluent, but I knew I was in trouble when I started
> >dreaming in German.....
>
> Why trouble? I couldn't have been fluent, because there was nobody to
> talk to, but I used to dream in classical Greek. In Homeric
> hexameters, even, complete with the epic boilerplate slotted in
> repeatedly. This structure actually fits dream logic pretty well.
>
Got a translation of those dreams handy?
> I dreamt in Euripidean verse a couple of times, too, but Aeschylus's
> verse was way beyond me and my unconscious mind together.
--
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
>Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>> Why trouble? I couldn't have been fluent, because there was nobody to
>> talk to, but I used to dream in classical Greek. In Homeric
>> hexameters, even, complete with the epic boilerplate slotted in
>> repeatedly. This structure actually fits dream logic pretty well.
>Got a translation of those dreams handy?
No; I can't even recall very much about most of them. A lot would
start with my dreaming I was translating the 100 lines of Homer I had
just finished with for my next class, and then drift into translating
stuff Homer never wrote and then gradually drift from there into the
action of the poem. Luckily for me I was more likely to get stuck in
the extended metaphors than on the battlefield before the walls of
Ilium.
The really cool one was a weird combination of the ILIAD and Spenser's
FAERIE QUEEN.
Josh Jasper
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> Josh Jasper <sin...@jps.net> writes:
>
> >Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >> Why trouble? I couldn't have been fluent, because there was nobody to
> >> talk to, but I used to dream in classical Greek. In Homeric
> >> hexameters, even, complete with the epic boilerplate slotted in
> >> repeatedly. This structure actually fits dream logic pretty well.
>
> >Got a translation of those dreams handy?
>
> No; I can't even recall very much about most of them. A lot would
> start with my dreaming I was translating the 100 lines of Homer I had
> just finished with for my next class, and then drift into translating
> stuff Homer never wrote and then gradually drift from there into the
> action of the poem. Luckily for me I was more likely to get stuck in
> the extended metaphors than on the battlefield before the walls of
> Ilium.
>
> The really cool one was a weird combination of the ILIAD and Spenser's
> FAERIE QUEEN.
When's the novelization due out? :-)
Janma
"songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote in message
news:5Fj%4.10604$AW3.5...@nntp3.onemain.com...
>
> "Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote in message
news:DhP_4.1994$K8.14341@news...
> > "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>
>
> ... <- i use ...'s to mark places where i've deleted stuff
>
> > > > > he's not in any position of equality to negotiate from.
> >
> > On the contrary he has quite a position to negotiate from, it's just
what
> > he's doing too.
>
> you actually think that he could keep everything he has if you
> left without looking back? you have enough wealth and he has
> enough brains to keep it? my guess is no, that he'd eventually
> piddle it away. (unless he's got some smart and honest friends
> who won't take advantage of his lack of financial acumen) think
> about it the way it would be for him if you left and if he'd
> survive in such a fine standard of living as he has now? would
> your business last long without you there?
If I didn't know better, I would look for you on the wall! Where are you?
*looking under desk*
>
>
> ...
> > > he still loves you? i hope you don't have to run and hide,
> > > but i sure am not going to encourage you to stay if he's got
> > > a violence prone streak to him either.
> >
> > He loves me apparently to the distraction of all else, but it just feels
> > like ownership to me.
>
> i think i could argue that he's the one being owned here. that
> however doesn't change the imbalance between you two. hopefully
> in time that will change.
Sorry if I have misunderstood this one....but if you mean that he is the
one being owned ie:by me....then I could also argue that one....because I
have thought so too for the longest time....I felt like I was somehow taking
his power or self confidence away, simply by being myself. Many things
appear effortless for me and I have a much higher energy level than him. But
there are many things that he is way ahead of me but they aren't things that
translate well to real life situations and scenario's, so I, seeing mainly
the things I wondered about in him, wasn't really tuned in to the way he was
seeing me. But now he is often saying, "Yes, you have all the power, you
have all the money...everybody loves you..." and as if he should go eat
worms...
At first I felt really guilty about this and went into a sort of creative
slump where I didn't do hardly anything...(except lurk on this newsgroup and
write poetry.) Then I thought....."This is not right! He chooses what he
wants to do! I never stopped him from doing his own thing...on the contrary
I tried to help him on numerous occasions, only to wind up with a major
headache and a fight!!" And if it's true I have all the power and I'm
wearing the pants, how come I'm the one works, takes care of the kids,
delivers babies, attends the PTA etc etc etc....while he pleases himself?"
I have to preach to myself constantly like this because it is so easy for me
to feel wrong and 'I don't have the right...' and 'I should have or could
have done better...." ....' and "poor him" etc etc... And I'm trying to sort
out what is ok for me in living my own life....it's hard because I haven't
lived in a western culture since I was a kid and that was an Australian
culture, not exactly enlightened in the relationships field.
>
>
> ...
> > > yeah, but i can only speak from what you have said here. i'm sure
> > > not seeing the whole story and his side of things. i can't guage much
> > > of his personality or abilities and i sure have no idea what it feels
> > > like when you two are in the same room together.
> >
> > Funnily enough we get on ok and we don't fight...it's the Indonesian
> > speciality, to act like everything is fine while boiling away
inside.....but
> > also, it takes a fair bit to keep me angry too, as long as he's not in
my
> > face and he's respecting my right to some space, I feel easy with him
>
> well that is good then. so you don't fear violence from him, that
> is what i was worried about. then again i'm not quite sure what
> you mean by "to heavy me" other than perhaps trying to guilt trip
> you.
He has anger fits. He just totally freaks out and goes beserk and you just
have to get out of the way fast. He's not very big however, and they subside
fast. He has only ever really hit me twice....once he banged his own head on
the wall ! But he hit the kids and that was what made me break out of my
somnabulisim , otherwise if he was charming and easy enough to get along
with I could have ignored everything for a while longer. I was busy getting
back on my feet after a disasterous first marriage and divorce. I wanted
everything to go away for awhile. But there isn't a way for me to ignore him
if he's scaring everyone in the house.
Yeah, I do, if he can be relaxed and be friends. I don't feel like being
enemies, that's for sure. But he's obsessing with the idea that I will
'fall in love with someone else" and has repeatedly stated that no one is
allowed to stay over the night....(Meaning any male friends...of which I
have plenty...) That's ok. Rome wasn't built in a day, I don't mind to take
it slow but I don't like being focused on.
Some things are hard to explain too, because of cultural differences and I'm
only just processing a lot of this myself. With, I might add, invaluable
help from this newsgroup!
Janma....
*going ok with the smoking.....-sort of- *
>
>
> ...
Janma
"Josh Jasper" <sin...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:393E8F00...@jps.net...
>
>
> Janma wrote:
> >
> > "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote in message
> > news:5Fj%4.10604$AW3.5...@nntp3.onemain.com...
> > >
> > > "Janma" <janm...@indo.net.id> wrote in message
> > news:DhP_4.1994$K8.14341@news...
> > > > "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > ... <- i use ...'s to mark places where i've deleted stuff
> > >
> Have you considered trying to find him a few smart, honest
> friends? Ones who also have a sympathetic ear to your
> problems? I know Balinese culture is pretty much stacked
> in his favor, but is it possible there's someone out there
> who'd listen to you, listen to him, and tell him what he
> needs to hear in order for him to let you be free from him?
>
> Perhaps it's asking for too much, and it sounds like "Now
> wave a magic wand and fix things", but there might be someone
> who'd agree with you AND who he'd listen to. I dunno.
You are right, there is someone. His brother Safril, whom I am very close
to, and because he's an older brother and they are very close, he listens to
him. Trouble is that he lives in Germany. I am hoping he'll head over this
way soon. When Barok (who is Javanese, btw, not Balinese) asks me "Why?" and
I'm already sick of repeating myself, I tell him to just go ask your
brother....he knows. Because he does, he's been telling Barok to 'pull his
head out' (OzTran)for years and years.
Janma....
*considering coughing up for a plane ticket*
Janma
"Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:idjsjssvlu29g0jf3...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:42:20 +0100, astral alice
>
> >Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
> >speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native
language,
> >the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
>
>
> --
> Doug Wickstrom
My kids have told me recently that I talked in Indonesian while I was
asleep, so I guess I must have been dreaming in Indonesian....which is
weird, because I always thought that I dreamed in English.
Janma
*trying to remember even a single dream she's had recently*
barbara trumpinski-roberts
> Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> > The really cool one was a weird combination of the ILIAD and Spenser's
> > FAERIE QUEEN.
>
> When's the novelization due out? :-)
oh, YES....
pamela, that is a wonderful idea!!!!! (i bet the ladies on the other
newsgroup we both frequent would agree.)
hugs,
kitten
/\ /\ 'a good marriage is one of the most worthwhile
{=.=} things a human can make.' spider robinson
~ kit...@uiuc.edu
http://members.tripod.com/~barbarakitten smotu
astral alice
>
> On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:42:20 +0100, astral alice
> <al...@death.org.uk> excited the ether to say:
>
> >Out of interest, for piranha and any other fluent multiple language-
> >speakers: what language(s) do you dream in? Your original native language,
> >the language of the country you live in, or a language you've learned?
>
> Yes.
Does that mean "all of the above"?