Sources for Finnish Names....
James R. Struthers
Does anyone out there have any information on sources for Finnish names
(personal). I am especially interested in names c. 900-1200. Any leads
on this greatly appreciated. Respond either here or e-mail
Kim Burkard
Might a geneaology group be a better place to ask? Or are you
looking for "mythic" names?
-kim
---
Kimberly Burkard | _ Everything I needed to know in life, I
Eastman Kodak Company| _____C .._. learned from my ferret:
Rochester, New York | ____/ \___/ Frolic and dance for joy often, have
bur...@kodak.com |<____/\_---\_\ no fear or worries, and enjoy life.
ser...@ouroboros.org
Has anyone mentioned the Kalevala yet?
A. K. Arsniva
Crossposted from alt.mythololy to sfnet.keskustelu.kieli in order to find
some new clues since I might be interested in answers as well :)
: In article 26079620...@ppp-h10.aracnet.com, shad...@aracnet.com
(James R. Struthers) writes:
: >Does anyone out there have any information on sources for Finnish names
: >(personal). I am especially interested in names c. 900-1200. Any leads
: >on this greatly appreciated. Respond either here or e-mail
<*><*><*><*><*>< "Hi! I'm Ed Winchester!" ><*><*><*><*><*>
<*><*><*><*><*><* akar...@cc.jyu.fi *><*><*><*><*><*>
Jarmo Ryyti
A. K. Arsniva (akar...@tukki.jyu.fi) wrote:
: Crossposted from alt.mythololy to sfnet.keskustelu.kieli in order to find
: : In article 26079620...@ppp-h10.aracnet.com, shad...@aracnet.com
: (James R. Struthers) writes:
: : >Does anyone out there have any information on sources for Finnish names
: : >(personal). I am especially interested in names c. 900-1200. Any leads
: : >on this greatly appreciated. Respond either here or e-mail
Muuta en osaa kertoa kuin,ett{ olen kerran n{hnyt listan vanhoista
suomalaisista nimist{,joita k{ytettiin ennen kuin kristinusko
tuotiin Suomeen. N{m{ vanhat nimet kirkko kielsi pakanallisina
ja siksi Suomessa on nyt n{it{ kristillisten nimien sallittuja
muotoja. David->Taavetti->Tahvo-tyyliin.
Vanhat aidot nimet olivat: Mielikki, Lemmitty...(naisia)
Liimatta,Tarvo,Laiti,Kerkko,Kokko,Kauppo,Hyv{ri,Kuisma (miehi{)
Luulisin,ett{ Suomalaisuuden liitolla on nimiarkisto my|s etunimist{.
jami
--
#In 1958,The Swedish School Administration repealed directives banning#
# the speaking of Finnish language in Sweden's schools.However,some #
# municipalities maintained restrictions until 1968 #
Jarmo Ryyti
A. K. Arsniva (akar...@tukki.jyu.fi) wrote:
: Crossposted from alt.mythololy to sfnet.keskustelu.kieli in order to find
: some new clues since I might be interested in answers as well :)
: : In article 26079620...@ppp-h10.aracnet.com, shad...@aracnet.com
: (James R. Struthers) writes:
: : >Does anyone out there have any information on sources for Finnish names
: : >(personal). I am especially interested in names c. 900-1200. Any leads
: : >on this greatly appreciated. Respond either here or e-mail
There is an organization which has archives of old (and new)
Finnish names:
Suomalaisuuden liitto
(Federation of Finnishness)
Mr. Jari Havia
Aurorankatu 7 A (katu = street)
00100 HELSINKI
phone: +358-0-446 587
The original Finnish names were banned by the Church of Sweden,
which arrived to Finland in order to "civilize" the Finns.
Actually old Finnish life was peaceful unlike the imported
religion or "civilization".
The ban was carried out by the violence and threaths.
The priests, Swedish speaking persons of the local Northern
Empire, who could not speak the language of the people gave
judeo-christian names for the kids when babtizing them.
In a style like: Jacob->Jaakoppi->Jaakko
Peter->Petteri->Petri
When the national-romantic movement rose in the end of
the previous century and in the beginning of this century
people started to give again original Finnish names for
themselves and their kids. Also family-names were changed.
Swedish colonial administration represented by the priesthood,
army and other administration had given Swedish family-
names for the Finns during centuries.
The latest larger name change movement took place in 1930's
when hundreds of thousands of Finns changed their names
and gave away former names given by the colonial administration.
Like in stead of slave names, own Finnish names, earlier
said to be "wrong names".
The next name change movement is about to be implemented
the year 2006 when the Federation of Finnishness celebrates
its centennial anniversary. The founders of Federation of
Finnishness were well known cultural personalities like
Jean Sibelius, Akseli Gallen-Kallela, Vihtori Peltonen etc.
An interestin anecdote in the history of the names is
following. The prists forbade "heathen" names. People
were forced to follow their directives, but they continued
to give "heathen" names for the cattle!
The priests could not ban using them in the names of cows:-^
Until these days these "heathen" names have lived in the Finnish
farm-houses in the names of cows for instance.
The farm-houses were small thus there was not problem
to give all the animals own names.
A very Finnish tradition and in ourdays when debating about
human food production very good tradition. The animals
are individuals,too.
Thus you can find the old names there like:
Mielikki, Mansikki, Mustikka, Lemmikki,Ulpukka....
Also you can find old "heathen" names, former first names
in Finnish family-names in ourdays.
Like: Liimatta -> Liimatainen
Kuisma -> Kuismin
Hyyti{ -> Hyyti{inen
Oitti -> Oittinen
Vana -> Vanhanen
People were smart, when the priest banned them to use
those names as first names they took them as family-
names.
In the cases they were taken into the Swedish
armies the officers gave to them artifical "army
names" like "Pigg,Flink,Glad,Friman,Grav,Frimodig,Frisk.."
All sort of "slave-names" because people were recruited
by force into Sweden's colonial army and Finns were used
as a sort of cannon-futter in it long times.
After the name change movement old names were thrown away.
The name change movement was possible first when
Finland was no more "an integrated part of Sweden" as
it is used to say,but Grand Duchy of Finland in the Russian
Empire.
These names date back to those times:
Ahti,Harri (not after Harry, but a name of a fish)
Tapio,Sampo,Orvo,Sulo,Pekka,Urpo,Veli...
Also old Finnish names prior the imported religion from
the near east you can find in Finnish national epic Kalevala
or in Kanteletar representing old Finnish poetry and
folk stories.
More:
It is in Finnish and gives a picture about Finland's
history from the Finnish point of view. Not from
Sweden's point of view or from the point of the
official establishment.
regards,
fleur-de-lis
>The original Finnish names were banned by the Church of Sweden,
>which arrived to Finland in order to "civilize" the Finns.
>Actually old Finnish life was peaceful unlike the imported
>religion or "civilization".
Utter bullshit. The old Finnish life was _not_ peaceful - it was blood
and snot as Karelians and Tavastians raided each other on a semi-annual
basis (check out the chronicles). (Sigh - another New Age myth which
doesn't endure historical inspection.) There was no "banning" of old
Finnish names - they just fell into disuse. Of course, church didn't
favor them either... There was no "colonization" or "conquest" of Finland
- the various parts of Finland were absorbed under the Swedish regime
during the centuries, unlike our southern cousins, who were converted
by sword by the Teutonic Order.
>The ban was carried out by the violence and threaths.
This person is a notorious Suecophobe, and his texts are to be taken
cum grano salis.
>The priests, Swedish speaking persons of the local Northern
>Empire, who could not speak the language of the people gave
>judeo-christian names for the kids when babtizing them.
Priests were of local stock since the very beginning and spoke the local
language. Bishops were at first imported, and later of Finnish families
since 1300s. The reason why children were given originally foreign names
was that Latin was the universal ecclestical language, and the usage of
Latin names was universal. The names, of course, transformed in the
vernacular into the modernish, familiar forms
>When the national-romantic movement rose in the end of
>the previous century and in the beginning of this century
>people started to give again original Finnish names
Correction: not original (I don't know too many men named "Wihattu" or
"Mieliwalta"), but original-sounding and emotion-filled names - and
direct translations of "international" names (Voitto pro Victor, Kallio
pro Petrus, Lilja pro Susanna etc).
>themselves and their kids. Also family-names were changed.
And today most those names are considered to have antiquated. Today the
trend is towards internationalish pan-European names.
>Swedish colonial administration represented by the priesthood,
>army and other administration had given Swedish family-
>names for the Finns during centuries.
Utter bullshit. Finland was NEVER a Swedish colony. Of the layers of
society, clergy and commoners were mainly Finnish, while nobility and
bourgeoisie were Swedish. The situation is not, though, as simple as it
seems, since the coastal regions were thoroughtly Swedish-speaking - and
in very few places inland could one find such poor people as those fishermen.
>The latest larger name change movement took place in 1930's
>when hundreds of thousands of Finns changed their names
>and gave away former names given by the colonial administration.
>Like in stead of slave names, own Finnish names, earlier
>said to be "wrong names".
Oh yeah. Most of those names had been adopted by the Finns in the course of
centuries themselves to ensure a better social status with a foreign-sounding
surname, such as "Alopaeus" pro "Kettunen" (alopex = fox in Greek, kettu = fox
in Finnish). The Fennophile movement seems to have restricted only on the petty
bourgeoisie and on the first generation intelligentsija. Needless to say,
there was a similar Suecophile movement before the WWII in the Swedish-speaking
layers of people.
>An interestin anecdote in the history of the names is
>following. The prists forbade "heathen" names. People
>were forced to follow their directives, but they continued
>to give "heathen" names for the cattle!
People do give Christian names to cattle and pets too.
>Also you can find old "heathen" names, former first names
>in Finnish family-names in ourdays.
Not all of those names are original pre-Christian names.
>Like: Liimatta -> Liimatainen
Of Germanic origin.
> Kuisma -> Kuismin
Of the patron saint of chemists. St. Kosmas.
> Vana -> Vanhanen
Which is, of course, of the adjective "vanha" (old). Most Finnish surnames
are far younger than some 300 years.
>People were smart, when the priest banned them to use
>those names as first names they took them as family-
>names.
A conspiracy theory without no real basis. Most of those names were taken
after a place of the same name or after the name of the estate.
>In the cases they were taken into the Swedish
>armies the officers gave to them artifical "army
>names" like "Pigg,Flink,Glad,Friman,Grav,Frimodig,Frisk.."
Which is actually a very smart thing to do, since the commands need
to be simple and ready, and people need to be recognized and addressed
quickly. Most of those names are positive-sounding descriptive adjectives,
such as Pigg (energetic), Glad (joyous), Friman (freeman), Frisk (healthy).
Needless to say, the same practise was used in mainland Sweden. For army
usage, such "military" names are far more better than patronymes.
>All sort of "slave-names" because people were recruited
>by force into Sweden's colonial army and Finns were used
>as a sort of cannon-futter in it long times.
Again a conspiracy theory held dear by the Fennophiles. Actually there
were no press gangs nor any recruitment by force (usually the most lax and
lazy servant was sent in the army with the worst nag available - and
volunteers were always abundant), and outside Finland, the Finnish troops
never made over 10% of the total strength. Sources can be checked in the
military books.
By the way, "Futter" is "fodder" in German.
>After the name change movement old names were thrown away.
And very many of those has been re-adopted in silence, sometimes due to the
integration of Europe and continuing internationalization. Finnish names
tend to be difficult to be pronounced in foreign mouths - certainly the
name of my family's maternal side from Swedish Ostrobotnia (Forsbacka) is
far more easier for an Englishman to read than that of my family's paternal
side from Eastern Tavastia (Viljanen).
>The name change movement was possible first when
>Finland was no more "an integrated part of Sweden" as
>it is used to say,but Grand Duchy of Finland in the Russian
>Empire.
Finland was a Grand Duchy since the end of the 16th century.
> Ahti
The Tavastian god of water.
> Harri (not after Harry, but a name of a fish)
Or vice versa. How come there are no other fish names in usage ?
Similarly in English, "Robin" and "Martin" are not originally the
names of the birds, but those adopted from given names. The fish
(/salmo trutta/) is, btw, "harjus"; "harri" is vernacular.
> Tapio,
The Tavastian god of forest.
> Sampo,
The machina divina in "Kalevala".
> Orvo
"Orphan". Direct translation of "Claudius".
> Sulo
Descriptive substantified adjective. Means "attractivity" or "sweetness".
> Pekka
The most popular Finnish variant of "Petrus".
> Urpo
From Latin "Urbanus".
> Veli...
Same as Swedish "Bror", meaning "brother".
>Also old Finnish names prior the imported religion from
>the near east you can find in Finnish national epic Kalevala
>or in Kanteletar representing old Finnish poetry and
>folk stories.
Both of those tomes were heavily "edited" by Elias Lönnrot, and I by
no means consider those as "authentic" nor "documents", and I would
certainly not trust on the names represented in those epi. Besides that,
at the conversion of Finland during the 12th-13th centuries, the old
Finnish faiths (the various Finnish tribes had different panthea) were
already heavily syncretized with the Catholic saint cult and mythi.
> http://www.sci.fi/~eiry
> It is in Finnish and gives a picture about Finland's
> history from the Finnish point of view. Not from
> Sweden's point of view or from the point of the
> official establishment.
So, it is a politically correct alternative history, not unlike those
written by the Feminist activists. Its academic value may, of course,
be dubious at best.
Jarmo Ryyti
fleur-de-lis (ha...@delta.hut.fi) wrote:
: In article <4tsbo4$1...@kanto.cc.jyu.fi> ry...@kanto.cc.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: >The original Finnish names were banned by the Church of Sweden,
: >which arrived to Finland in order to "civilize" the Finns.
: >Actually old Finnish life was peaceful unlike the imported
: >religion or "civilization".
: Utter bullshit. The old Finnish life was _not_ peaceful - it was blood
: and snot as Karelians and Tavastians raided each other on a semi-annual
: basis (check out the chronicles).
Karelians were not Finns. You should know that. They are a different
nation.
The Tavastians fought against the Swedish invaders (whose descendants
are present Swedish speaking population in Finland) for instance
in the year 1239 in Hakoinen Castle Hill.
Or the year 1438 so called the Rebellion of David. You name
them. The Finns fought all the time against Swedish colonizators.
(Sigh - another New Age myth which
: doesn't endure historical inspection.) There was no "banning" of old
: Finnish names - they just fell into disuse.
fell into disuse...sure because the Swedish priests declared
them pagan!
The Finnish names were considered heathen names. That is why they
were not given for the children by the priests (who were Swedes)
but instead when the children were babtized the kids were given
*Christian* (sic) names. That is judeo-christian names, Swedish
names...*international* names (sic).
You know that argumentation from the nearer historical events.
: Of course, church didn't
: favor them either... There was no "colonization" or "conquest" of Finland
: - the various parts of Finland were absorbed under the Swedish regime
: during the centuries, unlike our southern cousins, who were converted
: by sword by the Teutonic Order.
There you get a glimpse what is history from the point of
the objects of the colonization.
: >The ban was carried out by the violence and threaths.
: This person is a notorious Suecophobe, and his texts are to be taken
: cum grano salis.
????? That reminds me of the times -not so far away-when
all critical interpretation of the Soviet paradise was
considered anti-Soviet propaganda and sovietophobia
by the besser wissers in Finland.
: >The priests, Swedish speaking persons of the local Northern
: >Empire, who could not speak the language of the people gave
: >judeo-christian names for the kids when babtizing them.
: Priests were of local stock since the very beginning and spoke the local
: language. Bishops were at first imported, and later of Finnish families
: since 1300s. The reason why children were given originally foreign names
: was that Latin was the universal ecclestical language, and the usage of
: Latin names was universal. The names, of course, transformed in the
: vernacular into the modernish, familiar forms
First on the 19th century Lars-Levi Laestadius a Swedish Sami
started to preach in Finnish in Swedish realm!
He was the radical of his time. Remember Finland was part of Sweden
until 1809.The clergy was Swedish speaking, there was no priest education
where the language of instruction was Finnish in Sweden.
There is never been such education in Sweden. Not even today.
Tell me where is Finnish language priest education in Sweden!
The public announcements were given in Finnish.
Because the people had at least to let to know
what the King expects from them.
: >When the national-romantic movement rose in the end of
: >the previous century and in the beginning of this century
: >people started to give again original Finnish names
: Correction: not original (I don't know too many men named "Wihattu" or
: "Mieliwalta"),
Those were additional names. Not first names.
: but original-sounding and emotion-filled names - and
: direct translations of "international" names (Voitto pro Victor, Kallio
: pro Petrus, Lilja pro Susanna etc).
Voitto relates to the second WW.
: >themselves and their kids. Also family-names were changed.
: And today most those names are considered to have antiquated.
: Today the trend is towards internationalish pan-European names.
W{in|,W{in| miss{ on se W{ino...
It is no internationalism in its true meaning if all have
anglophone names. Only a complete fool believes so.
: >Swedish colonial administration represented by the priesthood,
: >army and other administration had given Swedish family-
: >names for the Finns during centuries.
: Utter bullshit. Finland was NEVER a Swedish colony.
It is so often heard how that and that was/is not a colony
but the part of the well-meaning realm.
Who says: "Chechenya was never a Russian colony" but an integral
part of Russia...
Everyone knows that argumentation about "integral part..."
: Of the layers of
: society, clergy and commoners were mainly Finnish, while nobility and
: bourgeoisie were Swedish.
Bullshit. Some Finns who speculated socially changed their names and
language in order to go upwards in the social ladders.
Similar social speculators are those who give "trendy" and
"modern" international names as you call "pan-european".
Similar pan-european trend was in SU (sic). It was socially
profitable to pretend being "international" Russian over
there. So everyone was Sergei or Tamara finally.
Back to the topic:
The church and state was one. Also its clergymen served the crown
in Swedish. Tax-collectors were Swedish speaking administrators.
The revenues were used for the center of the realm.
Read for instance Markku Peura and Tove Skutnabb-Kangas
"Sverigefinnarnas va"g fr}n tystnad till kamp"
: The situation is not, though, as simple as it
: seems, since the coastal regions were thoroughtly Swedish-speaking - and
: in very few places inland could one find such poor people as those fishermen.
They came to Finland to search better living as immigrants from Sweden.
Like the present Russians in Estonia.
: >The latest larger name change movement took place in 1930's
: >when hundreds of thousands of Finns changed their names
: >and gave away former names given by the colonial administration.
: >Like in stead of slave names, own Finnish names, earlier
: >said to be "wrong names".
: Oh yeah. Most of those names had been adopted by the Finns in the course of
: centuries themselves to ensure a better social status with
: a foreign-sounding surname, such as "Alopaeus" pro "Kettunen"
: (alopex = fox in Greek, kettu = fox in Finnish).
As the Swedish ruling class espressed it:
"Jokainen joka pyrkii talonpoikaisjoukkoa ylemm{ksi, ottaa
ruotsalaisen sukunimen, muukin vierasper{inen kelpaa:
suomalainen vain ei tule kyseeseen. Kun n{m{ herrat joutuvat
puhumaan omaa {idinkielt{{n he ruotsalaistuttavat suomalaisen
{{nt{misen hienojen korvien siedett{v{ksi. T{ll{iset herrat
ja naiset eiv{t mielell{{n tunnusta olevansa suomalaisia.2
Reminds about the present EU-fever:-^
cut some material
: Again a conspiracy theory held dear by the Fennophiles. Actually there
: were no press gangs nor any recruitment by force
From the history of Kyt{j{: "Vuonna 1707 Lopen nimismies Samuel
Dubbe oli hakenut Hirvel{n Hunsasta Kalle Yrj|npojan, joka oli
kirjoitettu nihdiksi. Poika oli viety Viipuriin ja sielt{
laivalla Liivinmaalle"
In brief: Swedish colonial administration recruited by force
Finns into their colonial army.
: (usually the most lax and
: lazy servant was sent in the army with the worst nag available - and
: volunteers were always abundant), and outside Finland, the Finnish troops
: never made over 10% of the total strength. Sources can be checked in the
: military books.
Heikki Ylikangas, a known historician: "Yli 350 vuotta Suomesta
vietiin asekuntoiset miehet sotiin, joita Ruotsi k{vi ymp{ri
Eurooppaa."
: >After the name change movement old names were thrown away.
: And very many of those has been re-adopted in silence, sometimes due to the
: integration of Europe and continuing internationalization. Finnish names
: tend to be difficult to be pronounced in foreign mouths - certainly the
: name of my family's maternal side from Swedish Ostrobotnia (Forsbacka) is
: far more easier for an Englishman to read than that of my family's paternal
: side from Eastern Tavastia (Viljanen).
A good argumentation to please mythical "foreigners":-^
Internationalization is not one-way route but it is expected
that "the mythical foreigners" also internationalized.
One may ask who is more international:
a. "an anglo" completely inproficient in any languages
b. a Finn who knows several languages
I can say that I have met in Finland persons from the anglo-
phone states who are monolingual persons, but teach
"internationalism" for their Finnish students who
are multilingual or even polyglotts.
This is only possible in Finland? Or are there other
as ridicul examples?
These fleur-de-flis-type of people attend on their courses
and feel lower if "the international" one cannot spell his/her name.
Ridiculous!
I am different indeed!
: >The name change movement was possible first when
: >Finland was no more "an integrated part of Sweden" as
: >it is used to say,but Grand Duchy of Finland in the Russian
: >Empire.
: Finland was a Grand Duchy since the end of the 16th century.
As a Swedish colony the Grand Duchy of Finland had not such
rights as Grand Duchy of Finland had in the Russian realm.
For instance: a separate citizenship
education where the language of instruction
was Finnish
own parliament
own currency
own flag and national anthem
language of administration Finnish instead
of Swedish
etc. etc.
For instance,those things never existed under Swedish rule.
fleur-de-lis
>Karelians were not Finns. You should know that. They are a different
>nation.
You really must be a die-hard Tavastian to announce something like that -
you might tell that to the nearest Karelian should you ever visit town
of Joensuu, for example. To imply only Tavastians (or Western Finns) are
Finns and Karelians not is about as correct as to mention only Roslagen
is Sweden and Gothians are not Swedes at all.
>The Tavastians fought against the Swedish invaders (whose descendants
>are present Swedish speaking population in Finland) for instance
>in the year 1239 in Hakoinen Castle Hill.
Oh sure they did. Such skirmishes were common everywhere around the
whole Europe. At the same time the whole Holy Roman Empire was in a
one great civil war, everyone fighting each other, everyone considering
each other as "invaders". Surprisingly such minor encounters, like
the Hakoinen incident, tend to disappear in the twilight of history.
Do you think there were no rebellions, civil wars or mutinies in
mainland Sweden in that date ? How much do you know of the very
nature of the Middle Ages and Feudalism ?
>Or the year 1438 so called the Rebellion of David. You name them.
At the same date the Dalarna province in "mainland" Sweden rebelled
under Engelbrekt Engelbrektsson. Did they rebel against the Danish
colonizators, since at that date all Nordic countries were united
under one sceptre held by the Danish kings ?
1438 incident was not a rebellion. It was a tax mutiny.
>The Finns fought all the time against Swedish colonizators.
Another myth held dear by Fennophiles but which does not endure
historical inspection. Even the very nature of the state structure
during the Middle Ages guaranteed there was no determined "colonization"
or "ethnic cleansing", and certainly the lords fought each other - and
there was an almost continuous guerrilla war going on against the
Russian - the Finnish territory quintupled from 1323 to 1595.
>fell into disuse...sure because the Swedish priests declared
>them pagan!
Swedish priests ? Even the bishops of Turku were no longer Swedes
since the 13th century. Almost all clergymen in Finland were Finns.
>The Finnish names were considered heathen names.
I can't name a single nation where pre-christian names (sans Lithuania)
had stayed in use after Christianization. Both because the discern
by clergy and both because people themselves tend to adopt "Christian"
names - just converted are usually the most zealous...
>*Christian* (sic) names. That is judeo-christian names, Swedish
>names...*international* names (sic).
So what is wrong with international names ? My first name is one of
an apostle and the second that of the supreme god of the Tavastians,
presented by Lönnrot as the heroic smith in "Kalevala". Why stuck in
just on the own backyard ?
>You know that argumentation from the nearer historical events.
And you know the argumentation for nationalism from even more nearer
historical events...
>There you get a glimpse what is history from the point of
>the objects of the colonization.
One half of my family is more or less Finnish and the other half is more or
less Swedish. I know damn well the both sides of the coin, and I know both
the Fennophile and the Suecophile truth. The objective truth - as usually -
lies somewhere in-between.
Comparing Finland under Swedish regime and Estonia under Teutonic regime
is just as bad a comparison as one could imagine. It is like comparing
a chair and an electric chair with each other.
>????? That reminds me of the times -not so far away-when
>all critical interpretation of the Soviet paradise was
>considered anti-Soviet propaganda and sovietophobia
>by the besser wissers in Finland.
Chauvinism and nationalism are as far from objective inspection of history
as anything can be. As I read the article behind the URL given some time ago,
a feeling "uhuh, the Forest Finns (I used the term "skogsfinnar") are now
inventing themselves a history they never had" rose in my mind.
>First on the 19th century Lars-Levi Laestadius a Swedish Sami
>started to preach in Finnish in Swedish realm!
Sermons were to be held with the language of the populace since the bishop
Magnus II Tavast of Turku in the mid-15th century. That meant that instead
of Latin, the sermons were to be held in Swedish or in Finnish, depending
of the language of the populace. That was *Roman Catholic* era, almost one
century before the Reformation.
>He was the radical of his time. Remember Finland was part of Sweden
>until 1809.The clergy was Swedish speaking
The clergymen - especially those below episcopal level - were mainly Finns.
The first translation of the New Testament was carried out by Mikael
Agricola, AD 1542 - about at the same time the Petri brothers translated
the Bible in Swedish. Both Agricola and Petri brothers are considered as
the founders of the literary languages of Finnish and Swedish, respectively.
>: Correction: not original (I don't know too many men named "Wihattu" or
>: "Mieliwalta"),
>Those were additional names. Not first names.
Those were first names indeed. You might ask Antti Leino in U. of
Helsinki for further information on the subject.
>: And today most those names are considered to have antiquated.
>: Today the trend is towards internationalish pan-European names.
>W{in|,W{in| miss{ on se W{ino...
Geeze, I really hate that song.
>It is no internationalism in its true meaning if all have
>anglophone names. Only a complete fool believes so.
Most international names are nearly the same in almost all European
languages - only their pronunciation vary slightly, and the variation
is at largest on non-phonetic languages, as French or English.
Since the Americans certainly won't go learning Finnish, and in order to
survive, Finns have to deal with the foreigners (like do trade), the Finns
just have to learn to deal with the foreigners and to speak their language.
I have seen my name (six letters) written in SIX different ways on a
MAILING LIST where everyone can see its ortography (it really gets
annoying) - and as I found useless to teach the Americans how to write my
name correctly, I instead adopted a pseudonyme.
>: Utter bullshit. Finland was NEVER a Swedish colony.
>It is so often heard how that and that was/is not a colony
>but the part of the well-meaning realm.
Finland was as much as Swedish colony as Flanders is a Belgian colony
or Ancalucia or Cataluña are Spanish colonies. I have so far heard nobody
saying the Swedish regime was "well-meaning" - I have heard the same been
repeated about the Czarist Russian regime of the 19th century ad nauseam...
>: Of the layers of
>: society, clergy and commoners were mainly Finnish, while nobility and
>: bourgeoisie were Swedish.
>Bullshit. Some Finns who speculated socially changed their names and
>language in order to go upwards in the social ladders.
Before you go releasing insults, you ought to check out the language
distribution amongst the layers of the society. Clergymen and commoners
were usually by their first language Finnish-speaking (the upper clergymen,
like bishops, officials etc who were in contact with the regime, were also
Swedis-speaking), while most of the town bourgeoisie, especially on coastal
towns - were Swedish-speaking, and all of the nobility were Swedish-speaking.
On social climbing, poor people usually go adopting the habits, customs
and trends of the upper layers of the society by imitating them. You really
cannot go blaming them for that.
>The church and state was one.
No they weren't since the age of Gustavus I Vasa. Certainly they were more
connected to each other than they are today, but equating church with the
crown is about as wrong as it can be. They, for instance, had different
jurisdictions.
>Read for instance Markku Peura and Tove Skutnabb-Kangas
>"Sverigefinnarnas va"g fr}n tystnad till kamp"
Sverigefinne = a Finn in mainland Sweden (= the western side of Baltic).
We were speaking about Finland, weren't we ?
>As the Swedish ruling class espressed it:
<chomp>
You really can't blame poor people from playing better than they were. The
era of Class Awareness and Social Democracy had not yet begun :-)
>From the history of Kyt{j{: "Vuonna 1707 Lopen nimismies Samuel
>Dubbe oli hakenut Hirvel{n Hunsasta Kalle Yrj|npojan, joka oli
>kirjoitettu nihdiksi. Poika oli viety Viipuriin ja sielt{
>laivalla Liivinmaalle"
Oh yeah. One single event is the whole history then. Ever heard about
deserting recruits who have joined the army in a state of drunkenness and
who run away as soon as they find out the harsh reality of the Army ?
The word "nihti" is usually translated as a "serving man-at-arms"; a
cavalry servant. Cavalrymen are not usually pressed into ranks; more often
they are more or less either volunteers or mercenaries, or "serving
cavalrymen" (rusthollari) who receive a small estate from the state
as exchange for their service.
>In brief: Swedish colonial administration recruited by force
>Finns into their colonial army.
In brief: the officials sought for deserters and brought them back to ranks.
Do you think such events did not happen in mainland Sweden ?
>: volunteers were always abundant), and outside Finland, the Finnish troops
>: never made over 10% of the total strength. Sources can be checked in the
>: military books.
>Heikki Ylikangas, a known historician: "Yli 350 vuotta Suomesta
>vietiin asekuntoiset miehet sotiin, joita Ruotsi k{vi ymp{ri Eurooppaa."
Separating single sentences - especially such extentizing as the one above -
is not considered as a good discussion technique. More than such expressions
I would be pleased of hard numbers. Such can be found, for example, in
Osprey Men-At-Arms series books "Armies of Gustavus II Adolphus 1 (infantry)"
and "Armies of Gustavus II Adolphus 2 (cavalry)". Those numbers and the
actual proportions of the nationalities of the troops are well represented.
I found them more credible as sentences like "For over 350 years the fit men
were taken from Finland to foreign wars, which Sweden waged all around Europe".
>: name of my family's maternal side from Swedish Ostrobotnia (Forsbacka) is
>: far more easier for an Englishman to read than that of my family's paternal
>: side from Eastern Tavastia (Viljanen).
>A good argumentation to please mythical "foreigners":-^
I use English on a daily basis, Swedish on bi-daily and German in bi-monthly
basis. I also speak Spanish and Japanese. Only for the Japanese the Finnish
names and words are easier to understand and pronounce than the Swedish. Now
talk about foreigners...
>Internationalization is not one-way route but it is expected
>that "the mythical foreigners" also internationalized.
You just can't expect the whole world to learn Finnish to get along with you.
Deal with that.
>One may ask who is more international:
>a. "an anglo" completely inproficient in any languages
>b. a Finn who knows several languages
Depends just and only on the circumstances. It is said that a Finn goes mute
with three languages. Finns usually don't tend to have a reputation of a
social and open-minded people. An "Anglo" usually doesn't *need*
to master any other languages than his/her native - everyone else is expected
to speak English as well.
>This is only possible in Finland? Or are there other
>as ridicul examples?
Just any other "European" countries. Or Far Eastern as well.
>These fleur-de-flis-type of people attend on their courses
Haven't so far attended to a single one such. All my language teachers
have known very well the first language of their students as well as the
language of what they are speaking. By the way, the last component of
the pseudonyme is not written with "f".
>and feel lower if "the international" one cannot spell his/her name.
>Ridiculous!
<sarcasm>
I just find it annoying. I am sick and tired of teaching the Yanks of how
to a) spell my name b) write their own language. I feel the foreigners are
the lower there and to get along with them, I have to lower myself on their
state.
</sarcasm>
>I am different indeed!
Sure you are. Can you spell "chauvinist" ?
>As a Swedish colony the Grand Duchy of Finland had not such
>rights as Grand Duchy of Finland had in the Russian realm.
Can you spell "Realpolitik" ? Do you really believe the Czar gave Finland
all those priviledges just because of our blue eyes and blonde hair ? No.
It was to ensure the Finns were obedient and loyal subjects of the Czar
who would not have any separatist ideas nor intentions of rebellion against
their benefactor. This was to ensure the Finns wouldn't go seeking for
revenge - Russia has in the course of the centuries been the hereditary
enemy of Finland - and joining back to Sweden - that would have been *very*
dangerous a thing, especially as the capital St. Petersburg was only some
hours' distance from the Finnish border.
Czar Nikolai II wasn't a Realpolitik master. He was a weakling who let the
Pan-Slavic politicians to rule his country and who broke his oath of retaining
the laws of his realms and his duties as Emperor of Russia, King of Poland
and Grand Duke of Finland. Not surprisingly, the Finns who had been amongst
the most loyal subjects of his grandfather and father, now turned against
him and fought off their independence under German support in WWII.
>For instance,those things never existed under Swedish rule.
Many other things which exist today didn't exist before the 19th century
even in the mainland Sweden.
Johan Alen
I'm only picking at a rather smallish detail and I shan't be
taking any part in your current discussion.
On 20 Aug 1996 08:50:24 GMT, fleur-de-lis <ha...@delta.hut.fi> wrote:
>It was to ensure the Finns were obedient and loyal subjects of the Czar
>who would not have any separatist ideas nor intentions of rebellion against
That's the way it always works. Do you think Sauli Niinistö offers
tax sale (so called) just because the people have blond hair and
nice blue eys? No, that is to ensure his further election as the
party leader, as a member of parliament and becoming a president.
Not to mention keeping the Kokoomus party members happy and to
prevent the Finns from rebelling against the government.
Please consult Niccolo Machiavelli. I'm sure you've read his
books.
There's nothing special in the way the Rex Russian now in
question ruled.
>Czar Nikolai II wasn't a Realpolitik master. He was a weakling who let the
>Pan-Slavic politicians to rule his country and who broke his oath of retaining
>the laws of his realms and his duties as Emperor of Russia, King of Poland
>and Grand Duke of Finland. Not surprisingly, the Finns who had been amongst
>the most loyal subjects of his grandfather and father, now turned against
>him and fought off their independence under German support in WWII.
Quite a jump, dear chap. From 1917-18 to 1939-45.
As we all well know, Finland became independent by simply asking
the at the time temporary and to-be-constant (more or less) rulers
of the newly born Soviet Union to allow Finland go independent.
Of course this, too, was influenced by Realpolitic, which I'd
rather call everyday politics.
The first year of independance was stained by a bloody civil
war and the scarves still effect in some parts of the country.
The Winter War (1939 - 40?) was a result of shitty politics of
the Finnish politicians: the Finns simply refused to negotiate
on real terms, they only told the Russian party hat they would
not give any land areas to the Soviets.
Rather oddly, the Kokoomus member Juho Kusti Paasikivi, a fine
politician and later president, was perhaps the only publicly
known man who disagreed with such politics. Sad enough, it was
he who had to negotiate with the Soviet party and always say no.
--
j.alen . literary criticism . university of helsinki
........................................................
ja...@cc.helsinki.fi . http://www.helsinki.fi/~jalen/
Tommi P Uschanov
In sfnet.keskustelu.kieli fleur-de-lis <ha...@delta.hut.fi> wrote:
: In article <4v9on4$1...@kanto.cc.jyu.fi> ry...@kanto.cc.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: >Karelians were not Finns. You should know that. They are a different
: >nation.
:
: You really must be a die-hard Tavastian to announce something like that -
: you might tell that to the nearest Karelian should you ever visit town
: of Joensuu, for example.
He didn't even have to do that -- as a Karelian and a Finn, I didn't
have to leave the capital area to be insulted by his post.
--
T P Uschanov, University of Helsinki, Finland, European Union
tusc...@cc.helsinki.fi ### http://www.helsinki.fi/~tuschano/
"Omnia praeclara tam difficilia, quam rara sunt."
(Baruch Spinoza, 1632-1677)
fleur-de-lis
>>Czar Nikolai II wasn't a Realpolitik master. He was a weakling who let the
>>Pan-Slavic politicians to rule his country and who broke his oath of retainin
>>the laws of his realms and his duties as Emperor of Russia, King of Poland
>>and Grand Duke of Finland. Not surprisingly, the Finns who had been amongst
>>the most loyal subjects of his grandfather and father, now turned against
>>him and fought off their independence under German support in WWII.
>Quite a jump, dear chap. From 1917-18 to 1939-45.
Woops, for some obscure reason I managed to insert one 'I' which really
didn't belong there. The war was, of course, WWI.
(we've moved quite far from the original topic - this discussion would
really belong in soc.history newsgroup...)
Johan Alen
On 21 Aug 1996 19:59:52 GMT, fleur-de-lis <ha...@delta.hut.fi> wrote:
>>>and Grand Duke of Finland. Not surprisingly, the Finns who had been amongst
>>>the most loyal subjects of his grandfather and father, now turned against
>>>him and fought off their independence under German support in WWII.
>Woops, for some obscure reason I managed to insert one 'I' which really
>didn't belong there. The war was, of course, WWI.
Nevertheless, the jump remains, it only changes from chronological into
logical: the Finns took no part in World War I. They only fought a
separate civil war with each other. The "jääkäri" movement (young Finnish
men went to Germany in order to receive military education), of course,
was established with the help of Germany and these chaps in fact did
fight on the German side against Russian troops. But they in no way
took part in the war as official Finnish representatives.
So the point still remains that the Finns did not fight off their
independence from Russia nor from the Soviet Union. It was granted
to us by the Red Revolutioners.
Any opposite claims are imaginary constructions called as myths.
Jarmo Ryyti
Vesa Jarva (ja...@cone.jyu.fi) wrote:
: Johan Alen wrote:
:
: >
: > The Winter War (1939 - 40?) was a result of shitty politics of
: > the Finnish politicians: the Finns simply refused to negotiate
: > on real terms, they only told the Russian party hat they would
: > not give any land areas to the Soviets.
Suosittelen Johan Alenille opintomatkaa Baltian maihin.
Laivalippu Viroon on edullinen.
Siell{ voi keskustella ja perehty{ mihin se toinen vaihtoehto
johti. Suomen kielell{ p{rj{{ Virossa ihan hyvin.
jr
Mark Blount
In article <4vjmju$k...@kanto.cc.jyu.fi>, ry...@kanto.cc.jyu.fi says...
>
>Vesa Jarva (ja...@cone.jyu.fi) wrote:
>: Johan Alen wrote:
>:
>: >
>: > The Winter War (1939 - 40?) was a result of shitty politics of
>: > the Finnish politicians: the Finns simply refused to negotiate
>: > on real terms, they only told the Russian party hat they would
>: > not give any land areas to the Soviets.
>
I'd say that the expansion lust and paranoia of Crazy Joe Stalin was the
culprit. Surely you don't believe that propaganda about Finland attacking
the Russians ?!? Or do you think that the Finns should have surrendered
land and a naval base just because it was demanded ???
Mark Blount
mbl...@texas.net
Vesa Jarva
Johan Alen wrote:
>
> The Winter War (1939 - 40?) was a result of shitty politics of
> the Finnish politicians: the Finns simply refused to negotiate
> on real terms, they only told the Russian party hat they would
> not give any land areas to the Soviets.
The Winter War (30.11.1939-13.3.1940) was a result of aggressive
politics of Stalin
(and of Hitler, too, because these two fellows had divided the Eastern
Europe few months earlier with the Ribbentrop-pact). If you are
interested of results of "negotiating on real terms" with Stalin please
study history of the Baltic countries during the WWII.
Jarva
Johan Alen
Johan Alen orginally wrote:
>> The Winter War (1939 - 40?) was a result of shitty politics of
>> the Finnish politicians: the Finns simply refused to negotiate
>> on real terms, they only told the Russian party hat they would
>> not give any land areas to the Soviets.
> The Winter War (30.11.1939-13.3.1940) was a result of aggressive
> politics of Stalin
> study history of the Baltic countries during the WWII.
Of course it all had to do with this bad guy, Josef Stalin. But
it is not all that simple. Finland was asked to negotiate by
the Soviets after all kinds of treaties and "alliances" were
made with the Baltic countries. The Soviet Union offered the
Finns land areas in Repola and Porajärvi in exchange for
renting Hanko naval base and SU getting the big islands in
the Bay of Finland (Suomenlahti, Finska viken). The point here
is that we were offered a deal (as far as I know it wasn't
quite like making deals and _exchanging_ areas in the history of
the Baltic countries). The Finnish representatives in the
meetings had given strict orders not to e.g. talk about
giving any land in Kannas (i.e. the land area between Laatokka
or Ladoga and the Bay of Finland) to the Soviet Union.
I quote Suomen historian pikkujättiläinen, WSOY 1995, 6th imprint
or edition: "Suomen neuvotteluvaltuuskunnan puheenjohtajaksi
nimitettiin valtioneus J.K. Paasikivi, jolle annetut valtuudet
eivät juuri sisältäneet myönnytysten mahdollisuutta, vaan niissä
korostettiin maiden välisiä sopimuksia ja Suomen puolueetto-
muutta. Varsinkaan alueluovutuksista esimerkiksi Kannaksella
ei ollut lupa keskustella."
The most important question was the safety of Leningrad (St.
Petersburg). At the time the Finnish border line was so close
to Leningrad that the Finns could have - had they been dumb
enough - shot at Leningrad with heavy artillery. So it is
understandable that the Soviet Union wished better safety.
Mark Blount replied as well:
> culprit. Surely you don't believe that propaganda about Finland attacking
> the Russians ?!? Or do you think that the Finns should have surrendered
> land and a naval base just because it was demanded ???
Not just because it was demanded as it was not simply demanded.
The Finns were offered a deal. It would have been reasonable to
at least DISCUSS the damn deal. But no, it was never done.
This is all why I said, "The Winter War resulted from the shitty
Finnish foreign politics." (I made slight corrections in the quote.)
We do not, of course, know what would have happened if the
deal offered by the Soviets had been discussed but still - the
reluctantness of the Finns to discuss does amase me.
Juho Kusti Paasikivi was a nice guy who knew the Russians and
spoke Russian himself. He is in no way to blame for those
shithead Finnish politicians.
J{rvinen Hannu-Matti
In article <4vq3ae$g...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>,
Markus Lang <ml...@cc.Helsinki.FI> wrote:
>Pekka Taipale kirjutas:
>» Finnish autonomous government declared independence late
>» 1917, then fought against the Finnish Reds [who] wanted to have their own
>» kind of administration and who joined forces with Russian soldiers
>» a.k.a. Red army.
>Really? I'd like to here some more. Did Finnish Reds
>really join forces with Russian soldiers?
Yes, they did. But: most of the Russians did not want to fight, and
many of the Russian troops left the country or were unarmed quite
easily by the Whites. But there were some Russian forces fighting
jointly the Finnish Reds.
Even the Finnish Reds did not think Russians to be dependable - there
were friction between Russians and Red forces.
(Source: Tie Tampereelle.)
--
-----
Hannu-Matti Järvinen, h...@cs.tut.fi