help needed ! i am new at the demo scene !
Melissa
hi everyone.
my name is melissa i am 20 years old and a new coder in the demo scene
.
i just start to get into it . i allways like those demos and choose to
get part of it.
now i am a pascal/c++/asm coder and i have a lot of stuff to ask you
how to and where to.
if someone can PLEASE try to help me and not to sent me to
ftp.cdrom.com or x2ftp . because i allready visit those places and i
need more help then that.
ok , here is my questions ;)
1. how can i make a texure mapping (the fast way) on a polygon (not
the old 256x256 trick) also if someone can sent me a source ;)
2. how can i make a hidden polygon vector ?
3. there is a good way to learn how to build a mod player ?
those all my questions !
please help , i hope to finish my demo till assembler 97 and you all
see me there ! ;)
thanks,
Melissa <WonderGirl>
Nicholas Vinen
Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
: hi everyone.
: my name is melissa i am 20 years old and a new coder in the demo scene
: .
...
: please help , i hope to finish my demo till assembler 97 and you all
: see me there ! ;)
: thanks,
: Melissa <WonderGirl>
Hmm...well I think I just figured out a reason why so few women seem to
be into demos properly...having a mentor really helps :) it's a
catch 22...no women to teach women...so what I suggest you do is hop onto
IRC on AnotherNet (sunrise.ca.us.another.net, together.vt.us.another.net,
neato.ca.us.another.net) and join #coders or, if it's empty, #trax. Then
feel free to ask questions and get realtime feedback :) it's so much
easier learning when you have someone who is helping you properly, not
just answering your posts...
See if you can find someone (like me) who is willing to help teach you
to an extent, and every now and then come back for assistance. With a few
years of experience you'll be going along great :)
HB
Mikko E. Mononen
Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
: ok , here is my questions ;)
: 1. how can i make a texure mapping (the fast way) on a polygon (not
: the old 256x256 trick) also if someone can sent me a source ;)
See fatmap.txt by Mats Byggmastar. You can find it at x2ftp or
ftp.cdrom.com. Actually it does not matter how big your texture is. It is
just easy to use 256x256 textures. No second shifting needed. But if you
want for example 64x64 textures your inner loop might look something
like this:
/* inner loop from fatmap.txt */
do
{
*dest++ = bitmap[ ((v & 0x3f00) >> 2 ) + ((u & 0x3f00) >> 8) ];
u += du;
v += dv;
}
while(--width);
/* I hope this is right.. */
Also, check Mats' homepage for working source (for watcom c/c++)
: 2. how can i make a hidden polygon vector ?
Do you mean back face culling? If you mean then check:
http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/people/van/courses/csc418/cull.html
I'm not going to explain because I'm such a poor explainer.
: 3. there is a good way to learn how to build a mod player ?
I think coding good isn't so easy so I reccomend to use for example
MikMod or Midas. They both support many file formats and soundcards.
: those all my questions !
: please help , i hope to finish my demo till assembler 97 and you all
: see me there ! ;)
I hope this helps even a little bit.
Good luck and happy coding.
: thanks,
: Melissa <WonderGirl>
--mikko
___________________________________________________________________________
! Mikko E. Mononen ! me...@edu.lahti.fi ! memon / iNSiDE !
Paul Hsieh
Nicholas Vinen wrote:
> Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
> Hmm...well I think I just figured out a reason why so few women
> seem to be into demos properly...having a mentor really helps :) it's
> a catch 22...no women to teach women...so what I suggest you do is hop
> onto IRC on AnotherNet (sunrise.ca.us.another.net,
> together.vt.us.another.net, neato.ca.us.another.net) and join #coders
> or, if it's empty, #trax.
Perhaps the reason why few women seem to be into demos properly is
because society always feels they have to take exception to women
entering male dominated fields, or that they have to be treated special
in some way. Why don't you just answer the questions?
> > ok , here is my questions ;)
> >
> > 1. how can i make a texure mapping (the fast way) on a polygon (not
> > the old 256x256 trick) also if someone can sent me a source ;)
This is discussed in rec.games.programmer and comp.graphics.algorithm
quite often. Chris Heckbert's article from "Game Developer Magazine"
is a good place to start.
> > 2. how can i make a hidden polygon vector ?
Well, I am not familliar with the terminology "polygon vector", but
other important polygon rendering considerations are clipping to the
visible region and backface culling. The clipping algorithm is beyond
me at the moment but can be looked up in the comp.graphics.algorithm
FAQ, I'm sure. Backface culling is a matter of calculation the sign
of the "Z" component of the surface normal. Again, the comp.graphics.
algorithm FAQ ought to explain this.
> > 3. there is a good way to learn how to build a mod player ?
I haven't a clue. But the wotsit.uk site gives a description of the
MOD file format (as well as other places.)
--
Paul Hsieh
qed "at" chromatic "dot" com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/9498
Graphics Programmer
Chromatic Research
What I say and what my company says are not always the same thing
Nicholas Vinen
Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
: h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:
: >Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
: >: hi everyone.
: >: my name is melissa i am 20 years old and a new coder in the demo scene
: >: .
: > ...
: >: please help , i hope to finish my demo till assembler 97 and you all
: >: see me there ! ;)
: >: thanks,
: >: Melissa <WonderGirl>
: >: eu...@netvision.net
: > Hmm...well I think I just figured out a reason why so few women seem to
: >be into demos properly...having a mentor really helps :) it's a
: >catch 22...no women to teach women...so what I suggest you do is hop onto
: >IRC on AnotherNet (sunrise.ca.us.another.net, together.vt.us.another.net,
: >neato.ca.us.another.net) and join #coders or, if it's empty, #trax. Then
: >feel free to ask questions and get realtime feedback :) it's so much
: >easier learning when you have someone who is helping you properly, not
: >just answering your posts...
: > See if you can find someone (like me) who is willing to help teach you
: >to an extent, and every now and then come back for assistance. With a few
: >years of experience you'll be going along great :)
: > HB
: well , first i must say somthing about the WOMEN that not in the
: demoscene .
: i know about 5 girls that LOVE the demo scene , and also like to join
: the demo scene . our little problem , is that we still dont know how
: to find all the stuff . my main task is to put some more females
: there.
I know people who are trying to do the same thing with tracking...good
luck
: even that you the boys are a great coders , i must say ;)
BTW how do you explain your account being billed to a man? (as a
previous poster's finger revealed)...mighty suspicious :)
: thanks , i will go there..
: maybe i will catch you there ?
With any luck...just try /whois hb and if I'm not asleep I should be
there :)
: thanks,
: Melissa <WonderGirl>
HB
Melissa
h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:
> ...
>: thanks,
>: Melissa <WonderGirl>
> HB
even that you the boys are a great coders , i must say ;)
thanks , i will go there..
maybe i will catch you there ?
thanks,
Melissa <WonderGirl>
Nicholas Vinen
Paul Hsieh (nob...@chromatic.com) wrote:: > Hmm...well I think I just figured out a reason why so few women
...
: > or, if it's empty, #trax.
: Perhaps the reason why few women seem to be into demos properly is
: because society always feels they have to take exception to women
: entering male dominated fields, or that they have to be treated special
: in some way. Why don't you just answer the questions?
Because it's something that I feel is important, as do many people. I
don't like to see people avoiding something they may potentially be
interested in just because of the way it's seen. I know more women are
using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
I just think we should try and make things a little more fair.
Mark Feldman
Nicholas Vinen wrote:
>
> Paul Hsieh (nob...@chromatic.com) wrote:
> : Perhaps the reason why few women seem to be into demos properly is
> : because society always feels they have to take exception to women
> : entering male dominated fields, or that they have to be treated special
> : in some way. Why don't you just answer the questions?
>
> Because it's something that I feel is important, as do many people. I
> don't like to see people avoiding something they may potentially be
> interested in just because of the way it's seen. I know more women are
> using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
> is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
> I just think we should try and make things a little more fair.
It's all about ego, plain and simple! Whether guys spend all their spare
time working on their cars or putting together a demo, it's for the same
common goal of gaining respect and admiration to feed that ego. Frankly
I think most women just don't crave that kind of attention to the same
extent men do.
Just my 2 cents...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Feldman mailto:pc...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~pcgpe
Activision Studios.....but I speak for myself.
Nicholas Vinen
Mark Feldman (pc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Nicholas Vinen wrote:
: >
: > Paul Hsieh (nob...@chromatic.com) wrote:
: > : Perhaps the reason why few women seem to be into demos properly is
: > : because society always feels they have to take exception to women
: > : entering male dominated fields, or that they have to be treated special
: > : in some way. Why don't you just answer the questions?
: >
: > Because it's something that I feel is important, as do many people. I
: > don't like to see people avoiding something they may potentially be
: > interested in just because of the way it's seen. I know more women are
: > using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
: > is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
: > I just think we should try and make things a little more fair.
: It's all about ego, plain and simple! Whether guys spend all their spare
: time working on their cars or putting together a demo, it's for the same
: common goal of gaining respect and admiration to feed that ego. Frankly
: I think most women just don't crave that kind of attention to the same
: extent men do.
Well that's not why I do it :)
Then again I'm not your typical "man"...I have some very female
qualities about me (don't jump to any conclusions though :) )
I do it because it's art, I want to give people something they can
enjoy. Looking at the modern demoscene I think people will enjoy my next
production which I am halfway through or so :) Hopefully a non-boring
demo.
Anyway, I think that certain qualties seen as being "female" are
important to making demos. If you don't put emotion and care into your
demo it will turn out like so many seem to be recently, boring vector
shows...
: Just my 2 cents...
Well I'll throw in $2 :)
: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Mark Feldman mailto:pc...@ix.netcom.com
: http://www.netcom.com/~pcgpe
: Activision Studios.....but I speak for myself.
--
HB
_mage_
Nicholas Macsi wrote:
>
> Can I be really ignorant and curiously facinated at the same time and ask
> what on earth is a demo and whats the big deal with women doing it????
>
> Nick Macsi
> Programmer(Games) wanna be
> If I could I would but I cant so I will try anyway!PC DEMOS FAQ, Version 1.82
The official FAQ of the Usenet Newsgroup comp.sys.ibm.pc.demos
This FAQ was last modified on: 5/11/96
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+DEMOS+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
1.0 What is a Demo?
A Demo is a program that displays a sound, music, and light show,
usually in 3D. Demos are very fun to watch, because they seemingly do
things that aren't possible on the machine they were programmed on.
Essentially, demos "show off". They do so in usually one, two, or all
three of three following methods:
* They show off the computer's hardware abilities (3D objects,
multi-channel sound, etc.)
* They show off the creative abilities of the demo group
(artists, musicians)
* They show off the programmer's abilities (fast 3D shaded
polygons, complex motion, etc.)
Demos are an art form. They blend mathematics, programming skill, and
creativity into something incredible to watch and listen to.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
1.0.1 Where did/do demos come from?
Demos started as loaders for cracked games (a loader is a small
program that was used to identify who had cracked the game you were
currently (illegally) playing.) This gradually expanded into being
programmed just for fun, or as a way for the programmer to show
off.
You can find more expanded information on the history of demos at:
http://www.cdrom.com/pub/demos/hornet/html/demo_history.html
Also See FAQ 5.1.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
1.1 How/Where do I get a demo?
Many demos can be found on local BBSes, but if you have Internet access,
you can easily get them off Internet sites. You need to have ftp access
to a couple of ftp sites. Here are some listings:
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/demos A huge site in the U.S; carries diverse
programs related to music, graphics,
magazines, programming info/source code.
Some other sites are: (Some of these are mirrors of ftp.cdrom.com)
ftp.luth.se
ftp.sun.ac.za
ftp.uwp.edu
wuarchive.wustl.edu
ftp.arosnet.se
hagar.arts.kuleuven.ac.be
ftp.uni-paderborn.de
Demos are usually in a subdirectory similar to /demo, /demos,
/pub/demos or /pub/msdos/demos.
Here's some more examples: /pub/demos/groups or /pub/demos/alpha
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>_mage_
>leg...@inreach.com
Javier Arevalo
h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:
>using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
>is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
or female friends usually do only practical things.
Seeyanara
Jare/Iguana
Nicholas Macsi
Nicholas Vinen
Nicholas Macsi (ma...@spirit.com.au) wrote:
: Can I be really ignorant and curiously facinated at the same time and ask
: what on earth is a demo and whats the big deal with women doing it????
An answer to what a demo is has already been posted...as to women,
well, for some reason few women seem to be interested in actively
participating in making demos or anything related...most people would like
to see that change. There's no reason why it has to be male dominated.
weikel
Javier Arevalo (ja...@jet.es) wrote:
: h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:
I can't think of anything more practical than learning to program.
I agree that fewer women will program for "fun" without hoping to
make a career of it. I've known men who work at $5/hr jobs and
write assembly code as a hobby. Actually...I was in that boat
myself... In any event, I think that women enjoy programming, but
think of it as serious stuff.
Chris Hecker
ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
>I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
>Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
>are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
>or female friends usually do only practical things.
I think this is true, but it's a learned thing, not an inherent one.
When I was a kid I took everything apart (and usually didn't put it
back together quite right, but that's another story), and I was
actually encouraged to do this by my parents and society. This
intellectual curiosity is the main reason I play around with computers
and math and whatnot. Most women are not raised that way, and so they
don't do it when they're older. I think [hope] this is changing, and
things will even out.
Chris
Nicholas Vinen
weikel (wei...@rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote:
: : >using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
: : >is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
: : I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
: : Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
: : are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
: : or female friends usually do only practical things.
: I can't think of anything more practical than learning to program.
: I agree that fewer women will program for "fun" without hoping to
: make a career of it. I've known men who work at $5/hr jobs and
: write assembly code as a hobby. Actually...I was in that boat
: myself... In any event, I think that women enjoy programming, but
: think of it as serious stuff.
Well the sad thing is that the few good programmers there are around
mostly started out doing it for fun, that's how you learn many of the
important things. Very sadly, most people who are taught to program never
actually understand it properly because they are taught wrong. Imagine
what's going to happen in a few years when most CS graduates are going to
know Java but nothing medium or low level *sigh* ... so much for p6, p7s
etc...they will be no faster than our 486s were with real software.
Random lamer (feel free to flame)
sha...@nlc.net.au
This is an interesting topic, out of 7 people I know who can code
(BASIC doesn't count), only one is female. ( mailto:da...@nlc.net.au ) I
think the situation is similar to the one seen in engineering courses,
where as much as 95% of the students are male in some classes.
Also, on the note of Java and other abstract languages, I think that no
matter how good hardware gets, some twit will always manage to write a
program that is slow, and not because it does an very complex
mathematical task. On the other hand, there will always be some freak
who spends four months hand-optimising half the program in assembler,
and uses every clock to the max. It's up to the user to buy the better
program.
--
. . . the Lord Shaman
------------------------------------------------------------------
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
http://www.nlc.net.au/~shaman or mailto:sha...@nlc.net.au
------------------------------------------------------------------
Petri Kuittinen
ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
> I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
> Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever.
This is an important thing to notice. My observations support your
statement. I don't know if this is caused by our society or by a real
difference between male and female thinking. Probably both.
/eye
--
<(O)> Petri Kuittinen, alias The Eye of Brainwash Company <(O)>
<(O)> ADDRESS: Timpurinkuja 1 C 39, SF-02600 Espoo, Finland <(O)>
<(O)> EMAIL: e...@niksula.cs.hut.fi, PHONE: 90-5472380 <(O)>
~I like work; it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours.
Joshua Boyd
My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
most things pertaining to logic.
Chris Hecker <che...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<checkerE...@netcom.com>...
> ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
> >I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
> >Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
> >are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
> >or female friends usually do only practical things.
>
Tonya Pope
From a female perspective, I have to agree with all of your
observations. I have been the ONLY female in a room of over 40 males in
one particular electrical engineering course. There were only three
(including myself) out of 33 graduating the semester I did in EE/ECE.
The workplace was the same way: 10 women in my department of over 100
at Lockheed.
But I have to agree with Chris--I believe it has a lot more to do with
the way you're raised than anything inherit.
I had a matchbox racetrack at 4, a HO model trainset at 9, built model
airplanes all during elementary/jr.high; got my first computer in 8th
grade--a TRS80 with 4K of memory! I taught myself how to program on it
and was tutoring the 'guys' all during high school.
Not to say that I was a tomboy--I also was trained in classical ballet
and have played piano all my life (things which, I believe, help make my
programming more creative.)
Nevertheless, I was raised with the belief that I could do ANYTHING I
wanted (despite some male chauvinist teachers).
And to the credit of all you guys out there--I have not met a male
chauvinist yet amongst any of my colleagues in the programming world!
Obviously, your heads and shoulders above many other industries I've had
the displeasure to work in.
Tonya Pope
Matt Pritchard
If I may thow in another factor:
I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
exposure to legal action over said issues.
At the last company I was at (350 employyes, had offices in California),
the Boss's secretary was classified as "Programming" to increase the
ratios.
(Hmm, this message supposedly is trying to post to three invalid newsgroups)
--
-Matt P
_______________________________________________________________________________
Matt Pritchard | Antique Computer & Game System Collector
matt...@netcom.com | Assembly Language Programming Guru
via Dallas, Tx dialup | Article Writer/Game Programmer/Developer
Chris Hecker
"Joshua Boyd" <bud...@aol.com> writes:
>My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
>abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
>new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
>most things pertaining to logic.
Sure, my [male] friend Dan was the same way. I'm not saying everyone
who takes apart a clock when they're younger will be a computer genius,
but I am saying that those who are discouraged from doing that sort of
thing _won't_ be computer geniuses.
Chris
Nicholas Vinen
Tonya Pope (ga...@premier.net) wrote:
: From a female perspective, I have to agree with all of your
: Tonya Pope
--
A lot of this reminds me of the testimony of Miss Saigon :) She
probably isn't reading csipd right now so I guess I can speak a bit from
what she has told me...she likes ballet, theatre etc. but likes all sorts
of other things. I really like well-rounded people...people that stray out
of their "gender limitations"...I'm kind of a little like that too.
In her own words, she enjoyed wearing pretty dresses, but insisted on
climing trees in them to catch frogs :) Her mother was interested in
computers and so she was welcome to play with dolls or computers, guess
which she picked :)
Anyway enough of me speaking for someone else...I guess enough of this
whole topic. As long as we can try and even things out a bit...
HB
Kerry
It's soooo hard to find a female coder...
or musician...
Take my sister(and other females I know) for example:
Just workin', drinkin', f*kin', smokin',
watchin' stupid tv, and so...
And yeah, she thinks I'm sicko coz using
pc whole day-night...
Yes, I hear - this doesn't belongs here...
Fabio Bizzetti
You shouldn't care a f*ck about what others do, just do what you like to do.
---------------------------------------
Fabio Bizzetti - bizz...@mbox.vol.it
Tenie Remmel
matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
>If I may thow in another factor:
>
>I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
>underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
>and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
>are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
>with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
>exposure to legal action over said issues.
I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
also, except physical strength.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tenie Remmel, Author of FREELIB E-mail: tj...@mail.nwlink.com
FREELIB: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/freeli22.zip
Snippets: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/asnip11.zip
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Matiskella
Self selection. Females that aren't overly good tend to drop out of the
engineering. At least thats the impression I got from school. So you get
left with only the best. You are also have to decide what makes a good
programmer which varies depending on who you ask and what you are trying
to do. There is a slightly different set of skills in organizing a million
line program compared with optimizing a 100 line rasterization routine.
The rest of the message is just flame bait.
David Matiskella
mati...@aa.washington.edu
Mike McCarty
In article <01bbcc00$b4171ae0$a5b946c6@default>,
Joshua Boyd <bud...@aol.com> wrote:
)My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
)abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
)new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
)most things pertaining to logic.
)
)Chris Hecker <che...@netcom.com> wrote in article
)<checkerE...@netcom.com>...
)> ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
)> >I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
)> >Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
)> >are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
)> >or female friends usually do only practical things.
)>
)> I think this is true, but it's a learned thing, not an inherent one.
)> When I was a kid I took everything apart (and usually didn't put it
)> back together quite right, but that's another story), and I was
)> actually encouraged to do this by my parents and society. This
)> intellectual curiosity is the main reason I play around with computers
)> and math and whatnot. Most women are not raised that way, and so they
)> don't do it when they're older. I think [hope] this is changing, and
)> things will even out.
)>
)> Chris
I'll go beyond this. There have been experiments performed which pretty
conclusively show that boys are more active, and more attracted to
playing alone or competitively
disasembling/designing machinery
whereas girls are more attracted to
playing together or cooperatively
playing with other children
This has been done in more than one culture, and in more than one place.
One woman has written a book "Genderlects" which pretty conclusively
shows that women and men have different outlooks on life, not culturally
induced, reflected in the strategies they use to parse sentences and
meanings they give to words.
It seems to be something connected to the way our brains are wired
differently.
Mike
--
----
char *p="char *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
I don't speak for DSC. <- They make me say that.
Nicholas Vinen
Tenie Remmel (tj...@mail.nwlink.com) wrote:
: matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
: >If I may thow in another factor:
: >
: >I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
: >underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
: >and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
: >are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
: >with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
: >exposure to legal action over said issues.
: I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
: The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
: all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
: also, except physical strength.
*sniff* I'm hurt...
Are you saying that I can never be as good as the best female
programmers? :( so much for all that practice and dedicating my life to
it. Oh well, now for something completely different.
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Tenie Remmel, Author of FREELIB E-mail: tj...@mail.nwlink.com
: FREELIB: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/freeli22.zip
: Snippets: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/asnip11.zip
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
HB
Andrea Marchini
Fabio Bizzetti wrote:
>
> Kerry (ke...@fhpv.umb.sk) wrote:
> >It's soooo hard to find a female coder...
> >or musician...
> >Take my sister(and other females I know) for example:
> >Just workin', drinkin', f*kin', smokin',
> >watchin' stupid tv, and so...
> >And yeah, she thinks I'm sicko coz using
> >pc whole day-night...
> >Yes, I hear - this doesn't belongs here...
>
> You shouldn't care a f*ck about what others do, just do what you like to do.
About italian programmer... Andrea in Italy is male name!! :-)))))))
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Fabio Bizzetti - bizz...@mbox.vol.it
Andrea ;-) Marchini
Kerry
Fabio Bizzetti wrote:
>
> Kerry (ke...@fhpv.umb.sk) wrote:
> >It's soooo hard to find a female coder...
> >or musician...
> >Take my sister(and other females I know) for example:
> >Just workin', drinkin', f*kin', smokin',
> >watchin' stupid tv, and so...
> >And yeah, she thinks I'm sicko coz using
> >pc whole day-night...
> >Yes, I hear - this doesn't belongs here...
>
> You shouldn't care a f*ck about what others do, just do what you like to do.
>
> Fabio Bizzetti - bizz...@mbox.vol.it
Yeah, you're right...I'm sorry if it sounded as I wanna to tell
the others what they must and what not to do.
I just don't like smokin' and drinkin`... Kerry
Java G
In article <01bbcc00$b4171ae0$a5b946c6@default>, "Joshua Boyd"
<bud...@aol.com> writes:
|>My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
|>abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
|>new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
|>most things pertaining to logic.
aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts and
is now studying photography. I dunno whether it's because she was naturally
inclined towards these things or was simply doing the opposite of what our
parents wanted :0) My younger brother is a classical pianist and NT guru,
so I guess it all went wrong there too....
--
/** Java G <hamm...@meng.ucl.ac.uk>
* Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
* http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
* "it's not about money... it's about pasta..." */
Yamaha / XYZZ
Joshua Boyd wrote:
>
> My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
> abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
> new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
> most things pertaining to logic.
My best friend (female) grew up almost exclusively around other females,
but she surely isn't interested in typical "feminine" things.
She's now a programmer and is also extremely interested in math,
physics, electrical engineering, etc... However, she's also very
artistic and creative; easily combining logic and creativity.
My own opinion is that a person's interests and personality are almost
exclusively influenced by environment (instead of genetics); but I don't
wish to argue about it (at least, not in this newsgroup).
-- Yamaha / XYZZ
mailto:scr...@CS.ColoState.edu
mailto:scr...@VIS.ColoState.edu
http://www.vis.colostate.edu/~scriven/
Steve McAndrewSmith
Java G wrote:
> aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
> technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts
That sort of implies that coding isn't an art :-) I'm both a hacker, drummer, and bass
player, and they're not all that different, from my point of view.
******************************************************************************
Steve McAndrewSmith EMAIL: ste...@turbonet.com
Drummer - Hacker - Minor Deity HTTP: //www.eecs.wsu.edu/~smcandre
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True multitasking is being able to type and pet the cat on your lap, at
the same time.
-- S. M.
******************************************************************************
Steve McAndrewSmith
Tonya Pope (ga...@premier.net) wrote:
: And to the credit of all you guys out there--I have not met a male
: chauvinist yet amongst any of my colleagues in the programming world!
: Obviously, your heads and shoulders above many other industries I've had
: the displeasure to work in.
: Tonya Pope
I've noticed there seems to be a disproportionate amount of racists, sexists or
homophobic hackers. I guess it just because it's so hard to find others with the same
intelligence that, if you do, who *care's* about that stuff? CAN THEY CODE??!!
I'm more biased towards what platfrom someone codes on (Those Mac and Newton hackers are
just an inferior species! Heil Hitler! :-) )
Gil Colgate
David Roberts wrote:
>
> matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
>
> >If I may thow in another factor:
>
> >I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
> >underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
> >and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
> >are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
> >with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
> >exposure to legal action over said issues.
I once knew a woman who said that she preferred to work at big
companies, since
the environments were "safer". Especially with regard to annoying bosses
and
harrassing co-workers.
David Sharp
weikel wrote:
>
> Javier Arevalo (ja...@jet.es) wrote:
> : h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:
>
> : >using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
> : >is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
>
> : Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
> : are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
> : or female friends usually do only practical things.
>
> I can't think of anything more practical than learning to program.
> I agree that fewer women will program for "fun" without hoping to
> make a career of it. I've known men who work at $5/hr jobs and
> write assembly code as a hobby. Actually...I was in that boat
> myself... In any event, I think that women enjoy programming, but
> think of it as serious stuff.
Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
Brandon Van Every
Mike McCarty <jmcc...@sun1307.spd.dsccc.com> wrote in article
<55u01s$v...@sun001.spd.dsccc.com>...
>
> I'll go beyond this. There have been experiments performed which pretty
> conclusively show that boys are more active, and more attracted to
>
> playing alone or competitively
> disasembling/designing machinery
>
> whereas girls are more attracted to
>
> playing together or cooperatively
> playing with other children
>
> This has been done in more than one culture, and in more than one place.
> One woman has written a book "Genderlects" which pretty conclusively
> shows that women and men have different outlooks on life, not culturally
> induced, reflected in the strategies they use to parse sentences and
> meanings they give to words.
I'll buy that "studies were done," and that they may even be representative
of particular cultures (USA, for instance.) But as a guy who came a hair
away from being a Sociocultural Anthropologist, I will not buy your
cross-cultural conclusions. Very little if anything has ever been "proven"
in a cross-cultural context. Cross-posted to sci.anthropology to see what
folks think....
> It seems to be something connected to the way our brains are wired
> differently.
That's what the "nature" school would have you believe.
Cheers,
--
Brandon J. Van Every | Free3d: old code never dies! :-)
| Starter code for GNU Copyleft projects.
DEC Graphics & Multimedia |
Windows NT Alpha OpenGL | vane...@blarg.net www.blarg.net/~vanevery
Fabio Bizzetti
I never smoke either, and practically dont drink either (besides when I am
drunk =;^D ).. my comment was general, and true also towards who blames
you for your hobby (computer freak).
Just go ahead, no need to care about what others (ignorants on the matter)
say, get advice only from who really knows the matter he/she is talking about.
So I'll shut up now. ;^)
A smile/laugh is more healty than a worry.. and in my very personal opinion
if you dont smoke you are much smarter than who smokes, if you dont drink too
much then you're much smarter of who can't live without drinkink to go on, if
you are a skilled programmer you've more possibilities in life than who looks
for the "Any" key on the keyboard and doesn't find it, when the message "press
any key" appears on the screen.. :)
Believe in yourself.
cynthia gage
I'm just wondering how any of these studies were done in order to avoid
culturally induced gender characteristics and differences. The
experiments studied the strategies used by "boys" and "girls" to "parse
sentenses and meanings they give to words"?...I was alwasys under the
impression that language and grammer and speech WERE culturally induced?
:)
Cynthia
In article <01bbcde6$bd1d3240$1690...@hammurabi.blarg.net>, "Brandon Van
Mr.P
On 7 Nov 1996 23:36:12 GMT, Tenie Remmel <tj...@mail.nwlink.com>
wrote:
>matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
>>If I may thow in another factor:
>>I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
>>underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
>>and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
>>are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
>>with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
>>exposure to legal action over said issues.
>The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
>all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
>also, except physical strength.
Even then, I do recall hearing in some old physical education class
about men being more adept towards "gross muscle movement" [i.e.
lifting a few hundred pounds] while women were more adept towards
"fine muscle movement" [i.e. piano playing].
Oh well. Inferior as we are, we're still essential to the survival of
the species, so we aren't going anytime soon. :)
-----------
Mr.P, m...@spartan.pei.edu
Coder, master procrastinator, and loudmouth.
"In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has."
- Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens), "That Awful German Language"
Java G
In article <32831FFD...@turbonet.com>, Steve McAndrewSmith
<ste...@turbonet.com> writes:
|>Java G wrote:
|>
|>> aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
|>> technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts
|>
|>That sort of implies that coding isn't an art :-) I'm both a hacker,
|>drummer, and bass
|>player, and they're not all that different, from my point of view.
yeah, but you know what I meant :0) personally, I find many similarities
between jiu-jitsu and coding.
Fabio Bizzetti
Java G (hamm...@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk) wrote:
>In article <32831FFD...@turbonet.com>, Steve McAndrewSmith
><ste...@turbonet.com> writes:
>|>Java G wrote:
>|>
>|>> aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
>|>> technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts
>|>
>|>That sort of implies that coding isn't an art :-) I'm both a hacker,
>|>drummer, and bass
>|>player, and they're not all that different, from my point of view.
>yeah, but you know what I meant :0) personally, I find many similarities
>between jiu-jitsu and coding.
Expecially when kicking out of the hard disk a virus. :D
>--
>/** Java G <hamm...@meng.ucl.ac.uk>
> * Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
> * http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
> * "it's not about money... it's about pasta..." */
Amit Moskovich
Wow, a woman that codes demos.. :)
And even from israel, calling the internet through the same ISP I
use.. :))
Wow again.
Say, will you be attending Movement96 in about a month?
Amit Moskovich aka Drool / Cyborg, coder and ansi maker.
ami...@netvision.net.il.
s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca
Yeah, and I know guys who shave their legs and wear dresses.
Infact, I think they greatly outnumber your cracking/warez group, and
I wouldn't be surprised if they outnumbered female coders altogther.
Just because a group exists, it doesn't mean its any reflection of
the population. The very fact that they would have to be named in
an arguement IS an indication of social trends.
I'll side with the notion that the low numbers of female coders is more
an effect induced by social pressures, not capability or "natural" tendencies
This, and I think female coders that are around keep a lower profile,
I hate to say it, but where ever female coders go they will not be taken
as seriously as their male counterparts, especially in male social circles.
The lifeless geek who spends all his time working at home and at the
workplace is a stererotype that for the mostpart accurately depicts
(or exaggerates) the strongest people in the computer industry.
(flame war!... please flame me back by email!)
This is precisely the reason I am not pursuing a carreer in computers...
it is a lifestyle, to be truely successful, you have to be socialized
into the group, I don't like the group.
I think these tendencies (male dominance in computers) will diminish greatly
over the years, I already notice it on the internet (as opposed to the BBS
community 5 or 10 years ago)
I think it will accelerate as the number of female-only groups increase.
If you disagree, take it up with my 90% male comp-sci classes,
or if you feel women don't get to university, discuss it with the
90% female nursing classes or 99% female women's studies classes.
Please, let's not get into an uproar, these are my opinions. I realise
there are many exceptions, and I'm very open minded about the issue...
only my personal experices dictate that this is where the industry stands,
I'm sure it varies greatly from culture to culture.
What does this have to do with dos programming?
it's the philosophical side of dos.
Please, if you're flamimng my opinions, save the group
and reply by email.
John
On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Java G wrote:
>
> In article <32831FFD...@turbonet.com>, Steve McAndrewSmith
> <ste...@turbonet.com> writes:
> |>Java G wrote:
> |>
> |>> aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
> |>> technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts
> |>
> |>That sort of implies that coding isn't an art :-) I'm both a hacker,
> |>drummer, and bass
> |>player, and they're not all that different, from my point of view.
>
> yeah, but you know what I meant :0) personally, I find many similarities
> between jiu-jitsu and coding.
Know what you mean. Every so often I feel like throwing my computer
around too....
( And a dialog box popped up saying SANE error!
I say "WHAT??"
And it still says 'SANE Error!'
Well, I SNAP!
I headfake to the left and deliver a double fisted strike to the upper
monitor, Drop kick to the power unit and karate chop to the CPU. Then I
do an Ikeo, Nikeo, and Koti-Mati-Gashi. I pick it up, spin it around for
a bit, and preform a flawless Koshi nagi on it, finishing off with a
backfisted strike to the mic!
Ever since I've been the Champ!)
John
(and if you don't get it, I don't care!)
P.S. On the topic of female coders, I'm a frosh leader dude at U of W
Math, and I've noticed we've been getting a lot more female frosh than in
past years. (but guys still outnumber girls by about two to one)
Sam Butler
WHO CARES if the coders are male or female? Just as long as they get the
job done. I admit that most programmers are male, but if a female wants to
program too, no big deal!!!!
Sorry for leaving over 80% of this as the original message, but I felt to
reproduce it to illustrate my point.
Sam Butler (a male, in case you're wondering)
(and not even out of High School; only 16 yrs old. But should ANY
of the above make a difference if I can program as good
as a 33-yr-old male? Not that I can, but you get my point!)
sbu...@magiclink.com
http://www.magiclink.com/Twin/
PS: Check out
s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca wrote in article
<1996Nov1...@nickel.laurentian.ca>...
Stephen Kawamoto
jo...@curved-logic.com (John Harries) writes:
>On Fri, 08 Nov 1996 15:01:12 -0800, David Sharp
><David...@wmc.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
>>
>Women can be parasites too. Way to go.
yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
to jump, eh, Johnny?
>Johnny.
>jo...@curved-logic.com Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum
--
Address E-mail to: sa...@vanbc.wimsey.com | sa...@rainbow.descon.com
<a href="http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~sage/">Sage_B's Web Site</a>
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox Saya rindu awak, sayangku xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
Stephen H. Kawamoto <finger sa...@vanbc.wimsey.com for PGP Public Key>
Stephen Kawamoto
I know of 2 woman programmers who've been shafted by the male computer
industry:
Joan L Grove Brewer (see http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~sage/snn/microsoft.html)
and
Susan Headley aka Suzie Thunder , formerly of the Roscoe Gang (c 1985) --
ok Suzie is actually a subversive psychological engineer. I have no
verification that she is a competent programmer, especially not someone
who spent most of her time online playing Tradewars 2000.
Michal Czupryn
>
> I tend to think of myself as somewhat of a programmer. And my desire
> to learn about computers came at an early age. Granted I was a bit of
> an abnormality and for people in my age bracket I still am. But with
I would think most people in this news group were as well :)
> the big push towards higher education I think that you will see more
> women in the field. How can you get away from learning how to use a
> computer these days. You may have to wait a few years but it will
> happen.
I disagree. There's a huge difference between "using" a computer and
"programming" a computer. My mother "uses" a computer, although I'm not
sure I would call it that. Many women use computes, some maybe even
quite proficiently, but there is only a tiny fraction that can (maybe I
should say do) program a computer. The same applies to males. Even
though many have bought computers with this "Internet" craze, how many
do you think will actually program them? Many will never need to with
software being pumped out 24/7 to fill the market gap with crap.
-Mike.
--
-------------------------------------------
/ Michal Czupryn / Rensselaer Polytechnic \
[-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-]
| mailto:czu...@rpi.edu |
| WWW: http://www.rpi.edu/~czuprm |
| PGP: Key available by request or at |
\ http://www.rpi.edu/~czuprm/pgp.htm /
-------------------------------------------
Nicholas Vinen
Stephen Kawamoto (sa...@wimsey.com) wrote:
: jo...@curved-logic.com (John Harries) writes:
: >On Fri, 08 Nov 1996 15:01:12 -0800, David Sharp
: ><David...@wmc.ac.uk> wrote:
: >>Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
: >>
: >Women can be parasites too. Way to go.
: yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
: to jump, eh, Johnny?
Speak for yourself. Some people are in this to give, not receive.
Joyce Osagie
che...@netcom.com (Chris Hecker) wrote:
>ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
>>I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
>>Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
>>are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
>>or female friends usually do only practical things.
>I think this is true, but it's a learned thing, not an inherent one.
>When I was a kid I took everything apart (and usually didn't put it
>back together quite right, but that's another story), and I was
>actually encouraged to do this by my parents and society. This
>intellectual curiosity is the main reason I play around with computers
>and math and whatnot. Most women are not raised that way, and so they
>don't do it when they're older. I think [hope] this is changing, and
>things will even out.
>Chris
I tend to think of myself as somewhat of a programmer. And my desire
to learn about computers came at an early age. Granted I was a bit of
an abnormality and for people in my age bracket I still am. But with
the big push towards higher education I think that you will see more
women in the field. How can you get away from learning how to use a
computer these days. You may have to wait a few years but it will
happen.
Joyce
David Ma
Does it really matter what sex the coder is? I don't care who you are
or where you came from talent it talent, period.
David Ma
Does it really matter what sex the coder is? I don't care who you are
or where you came from talent it talent, period.
"We are Pentium of Borg. Motorola is futile. Cyrix is Irrelevant.
You will be estimated."
Joel Hardy
>WHO CARES if the coders are male or female? Just as long as they get >the
>job done. I admit that most programmers are male, but if a female wants >to
>program too, no big deal!!!!
Exactly my point of view. Generalizations either way are useless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
|Joel Hardy (yes, my return address is fake so I won't get spammed |
| as hard), my real address is de...@fiestanet.com |
| |
|Visit my ugly homepage (with the first version of the sound |
|programming FAQ at http://www.fiestanet.com/~www/deeng/start.htm) |
| |
|I still need a better sig... |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahti Eric Rovainen
s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca wrote:
[snip]
[some others wrote]
: >> I agree that fewer women will program for "fun" without hoping to
: >> make a career of it. I've known men who work at $5/hr jobs and
: >> write assembly code as a hobby. Actually...I was in that boat
: >> myself... In any event, I think that women enjoy programming, but
: >> think of it as serious stuff.
: >
: > Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and
women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more likely
to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the crime
and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better). Thus
no surprise that many women trade warez (dunno if many disable copy
protection though). AOL has the highest female percentage and the highest
rate of problem users (hackers, warez traders, sex perverts, etc) - that
is probably not just a coincidence!
: I'll side with the notion that the low numbers of female coders is more
: an effect induced by social pressures, not capability or "natural" tendencies
:
: This, and I think female coders that are around keep a lower profile,
: I hate to say it, but where ever female coders go they will not be taken
: as seriously as their male counterparts, especially in male social circles.
: The lifeless geek who spends all his time working at home and at the
: workplace is a stererotype that for the mostpart accurately depicts
: (or exaggerates) the strongest people in the computer industry.
:
: (flame war!... please flame me back by email!)
I'm posting this because this kind of post shows up all the time in
male-oriented newsgroups (sports, programming, etc) - some troll or
PC liberal whines about females being under-represented. If this
traumatizes some PC non-programmers into not posting as much, the net
effect is positive. (PC = Politically Correct, not Personal Computer).
: This is precisely the reason I am not pursuing a carreer in computers...
: it is a lifestyle, to be truely successful, you have to be socialized
: into the group, I don't like the group.
Computer people are often antisocial; it's a contradiction to be
"socialized" into a group of computer people!
: I think these tendencies (male dominance in computers) will diminish greatly
: over the years, I already notice it on the internet (as opposed to the BBS
: community 5 or 10 years ago)
That's because the barriers to entry (high intelligence, logic, hard
working, etc) are diminishing. In the days of 2nd and 3rd generation
language development, you had to be smart, logical, and clever. Now
with the allegedly "intuitive" tools available, you don't necessarily
need a computer-like analytic mind, increasing the pool of potential
employees of both genders, especially gals. Female engineers already
get paid more for doing less work (well, maybe they're sleeping with
suits to get the extra $), women are exempt from the draft and combat,
and they receive the vast majority of SS and Medicare even though men
pay the most FICA and Medicare tax. Furthermore, office politics are
sexist in that men are usually fired for false charges of "sexual
harrassment" while women keep their jobs after actual harrasment of men.
As to computer users, kids are equally interested until teenage years
set in, then it's mostly male with a few tomboys and cyber-sluts thrown
in. At adult age, working women often work reluctantly, wanting some
man to sweep her off her feet and craving to get pregnant. Men are
usually goal-oriented and focused on our careers, so tough careers such
as computer jobs are more suited to us. A lot of unproductive middle
management positions are given to women, so they're probably given
preferential treatment despite their smaller percentage in the industry.
: I think it will accelerate as the number of female-only groups increase.
:
: If you disagree, take it up with my 90% male comp-sci classes,
CS is very hard and only a small fraction of either gender can
succeed. Maybe 9% of males and 1% of females could make it (numbers
are just a guess). The few female CS types are usually decent and
together, and are often from classy Eastern cultures (Muslim, Buddhist,
etc) where women don't do sleazy Western stuff. Female programmers are
usually OK to work with because they're frigid and don't try to flirt
the way airhead corporate women do (the male computer consultants know
what I'm talking about).
Often when some PC whiner/troll invades a masculine newsgroup demanding
the industry hire more women, an amusing appropriate answer is this:
"Most if not all women are unsuitable for that kind of position. The
only position I want to see women in is on their backs!"
weikel
Ahti Eric Rovainen (ah...@mail1.i1.net) wrote:
: s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca wrote:
: Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and
: women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
: majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
: they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
: scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more likely
: to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the crime
: and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
: men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better). Thus
<lots of flame bait snipped>
Excuse me, but what planet are you from?
And what do you do for a living because you CAN'T be a real
programmer.
Tonya Pope
This snivelling whining sexist drivel has obviously been made by someone
"mentally challenged". And, no offense to most of you out there, but
computer science is NOT a hard degree to earn. Unfortunately, it is
quite easy for anyone, educated enough to go to college, to obtain a
degree in CS. For you to say that it is hard, further proves your
'mentally challenged' status.
Now before the rest of you jump on me, it takes a lot of intelligence to
be a GOOD programmer. Apparently, the 'mentally challenged' individual
has been introduced to the real world where there are plenty of
intelligent programmers that he just can't compete with. And to make
matters worse, some are women.
Heaven forbid!
Wake up and deal with your inefficiencies.
Scott Dudley
> playing together or cooperatively
> playing with other children
Isn't that the same thing?
Chris Gerber
On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, John Harries wrote:
> >>Women can be parasites too. Way to go.
> >
> >yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
> >to jump, eh, Johnny?
>
> What are you talking about? I don't understand your comment in
> relation to mine.
True enough, [s]he makes no sense.
> As far as I'm concerned WareZ DudeZ do nothing positive for the games
> industry (and lets not have that 'evaluation' crap, you KNOW its just
> an excuse). Its theft.
And what makes you think that theft is "wrong"?
-chris
Chris Gerber
On 14 Nov 1996, Ahti Eric Rovainen wrote:
> : > Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
>
> Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and
> women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
> majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
> they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
> scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more likely
> to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the crime
> and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
> men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better). Thus
Oh my god are you ever a pathetic, narcissitic, persecution-riddled,
paranoid, un-intelligent redneck. It makes me very sick indeed that you
are able to post your biased, bullshit "opinions" to millions of people
all around the world. On the other hand, I'm impressed by your
ingenuity: how does someone with so little cranial capacity figure out
how to plug in a computer, let alone turn on the power and run internet
software? For starters, it would be nice if you could let us know the
source of your "information".
> no surprise that many women trade warez (dunno if many disable copy
> protection though). AOL has the highest female percentage and the highest
> rate of problem users (hackers, warez traders, sex perverts, etc) - that
> is probably not just a coincidence!
You know what, you seem to be the biggest "problem user" that I've ever
heard of.
> Computer people are often antisocial; it's a contradiction to be
> "socialized" into a group of computer people!
You are the most perfect example of your own hypothesis that I have ever
talked to/heard of. Perhaps *your* perspective or world-view is the one
that is f*cked up, rather than the rest of us conforming to your own
narcissistic vision.
> That's because the barriers to entry (high intelligence, logic, hard
> working, etc) are diminishing. In the days of 2nd and 3rd generation
> language development, you had to be smart, logical, and clever. Now
> with the allegedly "intuitive" tools available, you don't necessarily
> need a computer-like analytic mind, increasing the pool of potential
> employees of both genders, especially gals.
Ohhhhhh, especially "gals" are the stupid ones in your bloated opinion?
Why don't you state things the way they are. This should have read as:
"In my own personal, sexist, racist, holier-than-thou,
oh-so-intelligent-and-persecuted-for-it opinion, think that women are as
dumb as bricks (well, dumber than me, bricks might be smarter than me,
though)"
Where *do* you get off saying that men are smarter then women, period?
> Female engineers already
> get paid more for doing less work (well, maybe they're sleeping with
> suits to get the extra $), women are exempt from the draft and combat,
> and they receive the vast majority of SS and Medicare even though men
> pay the most FICA and Medicare tax. Furthermore, office politics are
> sexist in that men are usually fired for false charges of "sexual
> harrassment" while women keep their jobs after actual harrasment of men.
You seem to be the one who's all wrapped up the PC notion that men are
the ones being persecuted big time. And it may be in your own fantasy
that some day you won't be an insignificant smudge, you'll be an
insignificant smudge in management, and that you'll have sex for the
very first time with someone who wants a raise. Yes, you are dreaming
of some kind of sexual power, boy-o. Try posting to alt.sex.bondage,
instead of here.. especially with your ego that ate manhattan.
> As to computer users, kids are equally interested until teenage years
> set in, then it's mostly male with a few tomboys and cyber-sluts thrown
> in. At adult age, working women often work reluctantly, wanting some
Holy f*ck are you ever rude! You just finished letting us all know that
you crave free sex from someone you have power over, and now you're
calling people sluts! I think you have never left your basement bedroom
where you masturbate all day and think of girls. I'm sorry, but
opinions like yours could not have been formed with any contact from the
outside world.
> man to sweep her off her feet and craving to get pregnant. Men are
> usually goal-oriented and focused on our careers, so tough careers such
> as computer jobs are more suited to us. A lot of unproductive middle
> management positions are given to women, so they're probably given
> preferential treatment despite their smaller percentage in the industry.
You *really* never have talked to a woman before, have you? What do you
base your bullshit about pregnancy on?
> CS is very hard and only a small fraction of either gender can
> succeed. Maybe 9% of males and 1% of females could make it (numbers
> are just a guess). The few female CS types are usually decent and
> together, and are often from classy Eastern cultures (Muslim, Buddhist,
> etc) where women don't do sleazy Western stuff. Female programmers are
> usually OK to work with because they're frigid and don't try to flirt
> the way airhead corporate women do (the male computer consultants know
> what I'm talking about).
I had guessed that you were racist as well, thank you for confirming
it. Why didn't you put the "just a guess" after every single "fact"
that you put in your message? It would have clarified things a lot.
Better yet, why not "just in my little world"?
> Often when some PC whiner/troll invades a masculine newsgroup demanding
> the industry hire more women, an amusing appropriate answer is this:
> "Most if not all women are unsuitable for that kind of position. The
> only position I want to see women in is on their backs!"
Oh, they are unsuitable just because they are currently in the
minority? I really doubt that whoever started the thread was some
random hand-wringer. And to you programming is masculine. Yes, go you
manly, muscular typer you! Rowr! Tell you what, the next time (I'm
betting the first time) you see a woman on her back, you can post and
tell us if you got her there by force, or because she loved your great
ideas and intelligence. I'll bet you'll never know, because she'll run
the second you open your bigotted mouth. Have a terrible day, bro.
Keep fightin' the fight for the poor, abused, trampled rich or
upper-middle-classed WASP who calls most of the shots in our society.
I know, I know, you're soooo persecuted.
-chris
Java G
|>>I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
|>>The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
|>>all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
|>>also, except physical strength.
like what, pray tell?
why does every discussion like this get hijacked by hysterical feminists?
Java G
In article <32872c83...@snews2.zippo.com>, jo...@curved-logic.com (John
Harries) writes:
|>On Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:13:11 GMT, hamm...@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk
|>(Java G) wrote:
|>
|>>
|>>yeah, but you know what I meant :0) personally, I find many similarities
|>>between jiu-jitsu and coding.
|>
|>You hit the computer a lot? Or does your code keep tripping up other
|>programs? :-)
When fighting, you study your opponent, try various moves, get a feel for
how they behave and react - an analog of object-oriented analysis & design
once this is complete, you move in for the attack, stripping away the opponents
defences and disabling them - 40 hour coding sessions
Then finally victory, which actually feels the same whether in battle or
development. Then you bow/ship your code.
I M
I'm a woman programmer who used to be a Chinese translator/traveler. Since
I started programming, I have found myself intrigued with the programs I
can create and the creative outlet I have with programming (when I have the
opportunity). Before entering the world of programming, I was interested
moreso in learning about the long, awesome history and culture of the
Chinese as well as their beautiful language. I miss that, but now I'm back
in America and have found that there is an abundance of opportunity for
women in the computer industry. More and more "left-brained" women are
getting into programming, but I do believe it depends on the city and the
company. Some people (women and men alike) seem a bit hostile towards women
in male dominated industries. I'm just glad I've had the positive
influences and opportunities to enable me to change careers. :->
Joyce Osagie <jo...@webgate.net> wrote in article
<56bgee$r...@news.bconnex.net>...
Fabio Bizzetti
Java G (hamm...@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk) wrote:
>|>>I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
>|>>The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
>|>>all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
>|>>also, except physical strength.
>like what, pray tell?
>why does every discussion like this get hijacked by hysterical feminists?
Inferiority complexes of the femminists, Not of the women in general.
You know, this being sick is common also among males.
>--
>/** Java G <hamm...@meng.ucl.ac.uk>
> * Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
> * http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
> * "it's not about money... it's about pasta..." */
R. Auge
> |>>I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
> |>>The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
> |>>all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
> |>>also, except physical strength.
When will people accept the fact that saying one gender is better then
another at anything is abolutely idiotic. There are excpetional women
and exceptional men. There are also women and men who are complete
dolts. I'd also like to point out that some people always try to bring
up topics that are irrelevant in this debate. Men cannot give birth to
a child, so saying that women are better at bearing children is
absolutely irrelivant, as well as anything else that follows along this
line.(I haven't seen this anywhere in this thread, but I have it heard
it the past)
R. Auge
Tenie Remmel
ah...@mail1.i1.net (Ahti Eric Rovainen) wrote:
>That's because the barriers to entry (high intelligence, logic, hard
>working, etc) are diminishing. In the days of 2nd and 3rd generation
>language development, you had to be smart, logical, and clever. Now
>with the allegedly "intuitive" tools available, you don't necessarily
>need a computer-like analytic mind, increasing the pool of potential
>employees of both genders, especially gals. Female engineers already
If you think women are stupid, you must realize that you are stupider.
I can say with certainty that you have less intelligence than a microbe.
>As to computer users, kids are equally interested until teenage years
>set in, then it's mostly male with a few tomboys and cyber-sluts thrown
>in. At adult age, working women often work reluctantly, wanting some
>man to sweep her off her feet and craving to get pregnant. Men are
Oh, you're not just sexist, but sexual too? This blasted garbage ought
to be illegal. If you spouted such bigoted drivel at work you would
probably get fired.
>CS is very hard and only a small fraction of either gender can
>succeed. Maybe 9% of males and 1% of females could make it (numbers
It is not hard. And the 3 best programmers I know are women. Also,
why should we believe anything coming from you, a deluded bigot?
>are just a guess). The few female CS types are usually decent and
>together, and are often from classy Eastern cultures (Muslim, Buddhist,
>etc) where women don't do sleazy Western stuff. Female programmers are
>usually OK to work with because they're frigid and don't try to flirt
>the way airhead corporate women do (the male computer consultants know
>what I'm talking about).
So you're racist, too? No surprise. You probably have a negative IQ.
>Often when some PC whiner/troll invades a masculine newsgroup demanding
>the industry hire more women, an amusing appropriate answer is this:
>"Most if not all women are unsuitable for that kind of position. The
>only position I want to see women in is on their backs!"
This is blatant sexual harassment and I wish there were some police on
the Internet so I could report this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tenie Remmel, Author of FREELIB E-mail: tj...@mail.idt.net
FREELIB: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/freeli22.zip
Snippets: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/asnip11.zip
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lance Hoskins
Chris Gerber <ger...@Meena.CC.URegina.CA> wrote in article
<Pine.PMDF.3.91.9611141...@Meena.CC.URegina.CA>...
Do you think it's NOT? If so I take it you've never had anything important
to you stolen. You'd be singing a different song if you had ;)
--
-Lance Hoskins, Global Village Communication
Lance Hoskins
weikel <wei...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote in article
<56e84f$m...@gondor.sdsu.edu>...
> Ahti Eric Rovainen (ah...@mail1.i1.net) wrote:
> : s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca wrote:
>
> : Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and
> : women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
> : majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
> : they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
> : scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more
likely
> : to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the
crime
> : and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
> : men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better).
Thus
> <lots of flame bait snipped>
Laugh... looks like somebody just got out of a bad relationship...
charlie wallace
>When will people accept the fact that saying one gender is better then
>another at anything is abolutely idiotic. There are excpetional women
>and exceptional men. There are also women and men who are complete
When will you read something on the differences between men and women
at a scientific level, men and women are different, phsycially and
psychologically ( and possibly better at spelling too ). We see it all the
time in the *real* world, advertisements use it, for instance the video rental
advert the girsl gets a weepy the guy gets a horror film,.. If two things are
different to such an extent, one must be better at some things than the other.
If there weren`t so many differences there wouldn`t be such a discussion going
on..
Equality sucks, common sense is whats required..
Nobody is equal, we`re individuals.
Charlie
charlie wallace
Mesa MSDOS port
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7992/
John Daugherty
Chris Gerber wrote:
>
> On 14 Nov 1996, Ahti Eric Rovainen wrote:
>
> > : > Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
> >
> > Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and
> > women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
> > majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
> > they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
> > scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more likely
> > to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the crime
> > and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
> > men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better). Thus
>
> Oh my god are you ever a pathetic, narcissitic, persecution-riddled,
> paranoid, un-intelligent redneck.
First of all, I HAVE to say that last sentence was a work of art.
Second of all, is this "Dotty Primrose" (of Weekly World News fame)?
Please do not get mad that I kept the whole message (I usually don't),
but this was too good of a flame to snip.
I absolutely agree 100% with Chris that that guy was an IDIOT.
One of two things...
1. That guy is truly an idiot and is only good for target practice,
or
2. That guy was looking for a flame (gave a good one, too)
that is all...
--
John Daugherty
Product Manager
CMX Company
John Daugherty
> >Women can be parasites too. Way to go.
>
> yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
> to jump, eh, Johnny?
John Daugherty
> : And to the credit of all you guys out there--I have not met a male
> : chauvinist yet amongst any of my colleagues in the programming world!
> : Obviously, your heads and shoulders above many other industries I've had
> : the displeasure to work in.
Thank you!
I think one reason that women think male programmers are chauvinist is
that (at least with most of the programmers I work with) they tell jokes
that are on the borderline. Not to be harmful, mind you, but when some
(man/woman) hears these jokes they are WAY too oversensitive, and blow
the joke unjustifiably out of proportion.
The people I work with (this include me) tell these jokes; but when
dealing with women (or men for that matter) we give them the complete
amount of respect they deserve.
John Daugherty
> >Women can be parasites too. Way to go.
>
> yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
> to jump, eh, Johnny?
John Daugherty
> Exactly my point of view. Generalizations either way are useless.
I keep on saying this exact thing : "ALL GENERALIZATIONS ARE BAD!"
Timo Salmi
In article <01bbd323$6a2ef900$d7ca...@atleng215.globalvillag.com>,
Lance Hoskins <lance_...@globalvillage.com> wrote:
:Chris Gerber <ger...@Meena.CC.URegina.CA> wrote in article
:> > As far as I'm concerned WareZ DudeZ do nothing positive for the games
:> > industry (and lets not have that 'evaluation' crap, you KNOW its just
:> > an excuse). Its theft.
:>
:> And what makes you think that theft is "wrong"?
:> -chris
:
:Do you think it's NOT? If so I take it you've never had anything important
:to you stolen. You'd be singing a different song if you had ;)
I agree, with you Lance, but just debating moralities does not help
much. An edited extract from a FAQ:
"Software Publishers Association's anti-piracy department
pir...@spa.org is interested in knowing about the major piracy
originators and sites on Internet. Please also be aware of
http://www.bsa.org/piracy/piracy.html Business Software Alliance
against software piracy."
All the best, Timo
....................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi Co-moderator of news:comp.archives.msdos.announce
Moderating at ftp:// & http://garbo.uwasa.fi archives 193.166.120.5
Department of Accounting and Business Finance ; University of Vaasa
mailto:t...@uwasa.fi <URL:http://uwasa.fi/~ts> ; FIN-65101, Finland
Storm
weikel (wei...@rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote:
: : Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and
: : women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
: : majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
: : they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
: : scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more likely
: : to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the crime
: : and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
: : men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better). Thus
: <lots of flame bait snipped>
: Excuse me, but what planet are you from?
: And what do you do for a living because you CAN'T be a real
: programmer.
And what does he do on Friday night, 'cos he surely doesn't have a
girlfriend to hang out with!! :-)
-- ______________________________
\_/ "\/\/\__"\/ "\/ "\/\__"\_/
Storm / Cydonia / / / / / / / / / / / / ' / Packing class
/ /\/> / / / / / / / / / /__ & kicking arse!
(coder) \__/ \_/\__/\__/\/\/\/\/\/ \/
John Daugherty
Chris Gerber wrote:
>
>On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, John Harries wrote:
>
>>>
>>>yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
>>>to jump, eh, Johnny?
This is REALLY pissing me off! Would the person who said this about the
high fleas please eplain yourself.
John Daugherty
Chris Gerber wrote:
>
>On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, John Harries wrote:
>
>>>>Women can be parasites too. Way to go.
>>>
>>>yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
>>>to jump, eh, Johnny?
This is REALLY pissing me off! Would the person who said this about the
high fleas please explain yourself.
John Daugherty
I'm glad somebody brought that up....very good point
Joel Hardy
>|>>I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than >males.
>|>>The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) >are
>|>>all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other >things
>|>>also, except physical strength.
>
>
>why does every discussion like this get hijacked by hysterical >feminists?
Saying that either sex (or when you throw race or age into the
picture, and both have happened in this idiotic thread) is generally
better is wrong. Also, this thread was hijacked when it started. Think
about it: humanity is supposed to be so advanced that we're beyond petty
arguments about differences that don't matter, but here we are tearing
eachother up with words.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
|Joel Hardy (yes, my return address is fake so I won't get spammed |
| as hard), my real address is de...@fiestanet.com |
| |
|Visit my ugly homepage (with the first version of the sound |
|programming FAQ at http://www.fiestanet.com/~www/deeng/start.htm) |
| |
|I still need a better sig... |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
R. Auge
charlie wallace wrote:
> When will you read something on the differences between men and women
> at a scientific level, men and women are different, phsycially and
> psychologically ( and possibly better at spelling too ). We see it all the
> time in the *real* world, advertisements use it, for instance the video rental
> advert the girsl gets a weepy the guy gets a horror film,.. If two things are
> different to such an extent, one must be better at some things than the other.
>
> If there weren`t so many differences there wouldn`t be such a discussion going
> on..
>
> Equality sucks, common sense is whats required..
>
> Nobody is equal, we`re individuals.
there are a wide range of types of people in both genders, which would
mean that nobody is equal. Some people are so busy trying to prove
others wrong they neglect to pay attention to what others are saying.
As for being different at a physiological level, an autistic person is
different from a 'normal' (or should I say the average) person, but does
that mean that mean that every autistic person is say better at math or
spelling then the average 'normal' person, no. You can't say that
everyone in a catagory as broad as gender is better then everyone in
every other catagory. As for my spelling(if that is what that one
comment was towards), being able to spell correctly, and being able to
spell correctly when typing while your tired are two different things.
You should be able to second that statement, being how you made the same
amount, if not more grammatical/spelling mistakes then I did.
Chris Gerber
On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Janus wrote:
> >Ohhhhhh, especially "gals" are the stupid ones in your bloated opinion?
>
> He didn't say that, he said men are more analytical, not more
> intelligent.
You seem to have missed the last line in his message stating that women
were not qualified. And he implied that they were less intelligent in
that sentence, the one quoted above, and all throughout his post. Maybe
he didn't actually say "Women are stupid", but I tried to read into the
spirit of his post (as you asked me to below... you seemed to have
missed my understanding of his), and that is what I feel it was.
> >Where *do* you get off saying that men are smarter then women, period?
> >
> He didn't.
Actually, he did. He also said that they're lazy, immoral, slutty, and
a host of other things that are obviously just his paranoid projections
on the world as a means of hiding from the fact that he is a moron awash
in a world of intelligent people. Including women. He has an obvious
problem with accepting the fact that other people are smarter, quicker,
more insightful and basically better people than he is. He is an
afraid, sorry little man, sitting in a cave somewhere thinking that the
world (especially women in management) are out to get him. Classic
paranoid personality. But don't just trust me, read some case studies
of this particular mental illness.
> >instead of here.. especially with your ego that ate manhattan.
> >
> Do you know what ego means ? Can you quote any single passage from his
> post that shows inflation of ego ?
How about everything that puts down women? How about everything that
tries to portray himself as some victim? Paranoia stems from Narcissism
(you'll note the use of this term at least twice in my original response
to him) which is a basic belief that one's self is much more important
than all other people, and therefore everyone must be jealous and out to
get us. The whole thing is his reversal of the situation (his own
deficiencies) being inverted and projected out onto others.
> Sexism maybe, but you lose your argument by your insults and
> especially by missing the point, by a mile.
I don't lose my argument by my insults. He lost his somewhere up his
deluded ass, along with any rational, unbiased thought. And I don't
think I did miss his point. You seem to think (from what you wrote
above) that it was that men are more analytical. Now whether or not
this is true is a very heated debate in modern psychology, but
what I do know is, that if he wanted to make this point, he needn't have
added all of his BS about the role women should play in our society, our
the loads of crap deriding their abilities to think and act as well as
men, about how they are all pathetic freeloaders just waiting to get
knocked-up, etc... I think you (and he) would do well to read
Euripides' Medea. There's a brilliant line in there, made by Medea, a
women repressed and put down by the patriarchal society (sorry, don't
mean to get all wishy-washy, but it's true):
"Fools! I would rather die a thousand deaths in the front lines
than bear one child."
This gets the essential point, even though it's paraphrased. I don't
think that mister what-ever-his-angst has any right whatsoever to make
sweeping, categorical statements about "what women want". If he thinks
he is right, then he has obviously never spoken with many.
> >Holy f*ck are you ever rude!
>
> Go ask the Pope - ain't nothing holy about fucking ! :-)
Ahh, and the Pope is God and judge of all things sacred. I think you
have your morals wound tightly up your butt. Is there anything base,
vile or dirty about sex and sexuality? Why should there be? Well,
because society seems to think there is. At least, part of it does.
Shouldn't you think of sex as it's foremost evolutionary function
dictates: as the sole means of continuing our species (yeah, yeah, now
we can make clones, but there's moral and ethical issues there too -
it's all about how "sacred" we view sex to be). Isn't that the most
perfect thing, that is clearly quantitative and measurable that we can
do? Even non-"procreational" sex is a symbol of our humanity. So why
do we think of sex as "bad", "dirty", or "evil"? Well, because in the
Middle Ages, sexist men who were in religious power decided that children
were a curse from God, and that without women, there would be no
children, therefore women, and sex, was bad, evil, of the flesh, and
meritless. The view that some of us hold of it today is still affected
by those irrelevant teachings from back in the Dark Ages. Perhaps it's
time to let old, useless preachings and teachings go now. Sexism,
racism, and of course, the taboo of sexuality need to be abolished. The
ancients (Greece,Rome) had no problem with their sexuality... they
realized that it was holy, and sacred, and didn't get all upset about
silly things, or believe everything some guy in a stupid hat says.
> > I'll bet you'll never know, because she'll run
> >the second you open your bigotted mouth.
>
> But only if she hasn't fled from your bigotry first.
My bigotry? Elaborate, my obscure compadre.
-chris
Brett Mahon
If female programmers are so good then why why do most females SUCK at
computers. Maby they can program really well with a language like VB
but I want to see a female program better ASM than a male!
Nir Soffer
Brett Mahon (zta...@mail.global.co.za) wrote:
: If female programmers are so good then why why do most females SUCK at
: computers. Maby they can program really well with a language like VB
: but I want to see a female program better ASM than a male!
BULL-SHIT - simply put. It is simply _not_ true. Female programmers are
often a heck of a lot better then men - I've seen female programmers
teach their whole class in university and help them in excersises, have
an amazingly fast learning throughput when it comes to computing, etc.
You are pretty much stuck in the concept that programming has to be
analytical which is wrong - programming nowadays is becoming more and
more creative, just check out how many women there are in the develpoment
groups of recent games. Why is CS defined and known as a male profession
you ask? I think it's because (don't laugh) women were repressed and
trodden down in those proffessions from the same wrong reasons you have
stated. Nowadays the women are building their confidence and they'll soon
be just as dominant then males, if not more. Christ- open your mind a bit
and see what's happening - Coding is not only a matter of analytic
thinking which (arguably, VERY arguably, and supposedly too) male are
better in but rather creative and intuitive which (Again, arguably and
supposedly) women are better in. Go to the college near you and see how
many females are taking CS classes and doing well in them, boy are you in
for a shock.
N.
--
Nir Soffer AKA ScorpioS. scor...@cs.huji.ac.il
"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat"
-- John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy 1981-1987
Simon Hosie
> the industry hire more women, an amusing appropriate answer is this:
> "Most if not all women are unsuitable for that kind of position. The
> only position I want to see women in is on their backs!"
Tenie Remmel:
> This is blatant sexual harassment and I wish there were some police on
> the Internet so I could report this.
Try mailing the postmaster at his site. But I have to ask, why did you
bother reading past his first page?
Fabio Bizzetti
Brett Mahon (zta...@mail.global.co.za) wrote:
>If female programmers are so good then why why do most females SUCK at
>computers.
Probably they're better suckers in many fields, but what does this have to
do with computers anyway?
> Maby they can program really well with a language like VB
>but I want to see a female program better ASM than a male!
Next time you'll please us telling that black people program worse than whites?
Get a break..
Women have better things to do than become a nerd for profession, and then
maybe get anyway discriminated by people like you.
That's only a cultural matter IMHO.
Enough off topic for today..
Chris Gerber
On 15 Nov 1996, Lance Hoskins wrote:
> > > As far as I'm concerned WareZ DudeZ do nothing positive for the games
> > > industry (and lets not have that 'evaluation' crap, you KNOW its just
> > > an excuse). Its theft.
> >
> > And what makes you think that theft is "wrong"?
>
> Do you think it's NOT? If so I take it you've never had anything important
> to you stolen. You'd be singing a different song if you had ;)
I think that people haven't sat down and thought about why they think
it's wrong. It's based on judeo-christian ethics and the laws derived
from them. Our society is purely materialistic, placing no value
whatsoever on sharing and community. In days before Christianity spread
like the plague, cultures shared all of their property, and there was no
need for "theft" as we view it, because individuals, people, had more
value than all the wealth in the world. I have been robbed, and it's
frustrating, but let's face it, there's nothing about it that's
inherently "wrong" (outside of conditioned, unquestioned values). So no,
I don't think that it's wrong. I do know that it's illegal, and that
it's against many religious beliefs, but then again, the religious
beliefs sprung up around a need to consumate greed as acceptable, and are
therefore immensely skewed.
-chris
Chris Gerber
On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Brett Mahon wrote:
> If female programmers are so good then why why do most females SUCK at
> computers. Maby they can program really well with a language like VB
> but I want to see a female program better ASM than a male!
Hmm, is this a generalization, or is it based on your interviews and
careful observations of every woman who currently resides on planet
Earth? Remember, not all women are identical, just as not all men are.
I was wondering if you really think that ASM programming is the pinnacle
of masculinity and the complete embodiment of testosterone? If so, I
would like to call your attention to the fact that you have no brain
cells. Have a dipsy-doosy-dozy day in funny-ha-ha-sunshine land, where
all the patients are drugged into a mindless stupour.
-chris
Unknown
Chris Gerber <ger...@Meena.CC.URegina.CA> wrote:
>On 15 Nov 1996, Lance Hoskins wrote:
>
>> > > As far as I'm concerned WareZ DudeZ do nothing positive for the games
>> > > industry (and lets not have that 'evaluation' crap, you KNOW its just
>> > > an excuse). Its theft.
>> >
>> > And what makes you think that theft is "wrong"?
>>
>> Do you think it's NOT? If so I take it you've never had anything important
>> to you stolen. You'd be singing a different song if you had ;)
>
>I think that people haven't sat down and thought about why they think
>it's wrong. It's based on judeo-christian ethics and the laws derived
snip
I am and always have been (as far a I remember) an atheist. My feelings on
software piracy are no different from alot of my freinds. Theft has been
considered wrong in all cultures that I know off (perhaps you can prove me wrong
here). The only society that had no copyright law was the old USSR (I don't
know about PR China). In the interests of commerece, copyright laws were
drafted. This allowed the very talented Russian programmers to make some money.
Previously, any work produced had common ownership.
Would any Russian programmer like to elaborate?
Mike
--
Mike Morgan
mi...@mjmorgan.demon.co.uk
CRYER
Hi, I am looking for the above original dos game...you know, the one
played in Apple //e?
Anyway, if you have, do you think you can email me a .zip file?
thanks in advance
Chris Gerber
On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, it was written:
> >> > And what makes you think that theft is "wrong"?
> >>
> >> Do you think it's NOT? If so I take it you've never had anything important
> >> to you stolen. You'd be singing a different song if you had ;)
> >
> >I think that people haven't sat down and thought about why they think
> >it's wrong. It's based on judeo-christian ethics and the laws derived
> snip
>
> I am and always have been (as far a I remember) an atheist. My feelings on
> software piracy are no different from alot of my freinds. Theft has been
> considered wrong in all cultures that I know off (perhaps you can prove me wrong
> here). The only society that had no copyright law was the old USSR (I don't
> know about PR China). In the interests of commerece, copyright laws were
> drafted. This allowed the very talented Russian programmers to make some money.
> Previously, any work produced had common ownership.
And the old USSR didn't have them, because it wasn't (supposed to have
been) based on greed and capitalism. I was referring to *ancient*
societies that didn't view theft as wrong. My whole point was that the
modern-day ethics are (probably) irrevocably steeped in the values of our
christian ancestors back in the middle-ages. You don't have to be
religious to be conditioned by the whole freaking world's morality;
you've seen nothing but them since the day you were born. What I was
saying is that no-one realizes where their "conscience" or sense of
morality comes from. Most of it comes from the ten commandments, almost
word-for-word. And your "in the interests of commerce" point... I said
that myself in my post. Did you actually read anything beyond the part
that you quoted, or did you just, right off the bat, respond?
-chris
Frank R. Szofran
> And the old USSR didn't have them, because it wasn't (supposed to have
> been) based on greed and capitalism. I was referring to *ancient*
> societies that didn't view theft as wrong.
You have a verry _warped_ view of history. If stealing was not
considered wrong in societies outside of chriristianity, why would the
ancient Chineese need a judicial system to deal with such matters.
After all they were isolated from christianity. Or if you are refirring
to even older societies such as CroMagnon man or the primitive Mayans
and Incas, I would like to know where you got your information, since
even the archaeologists and physical/cultral anthropologists don't even
know, because it was before written and verbal history.
Dave Glue
Chris Gerber <ger...@Meena.CC.URegina.CA> wrote in article
<Pine.PMDF.3.91.9611171...@Meena.CC.URegina.CA>...
> morality comes from. Most of it comes from the ten commandments, almost
> word-for-word. And your "in the interests of commerce" point... I said
> that myself in my post. Did you actually read anything beyond the part
> that you quoted, or did you just, right off the bat, respond?
How about logic?
A programmer works hard, and usually has spent a good deal on education to
learn their craft. He/she produces a product, he/she needs that money to
produce more- and frivolous things, like food/shelter. So instead of
taking it and using it without reimbursing the developer, and therefore
discouraging them from continuing to produce products, I would purchase it.
Something about paying people for their work I find well...logical.
Perhaps if we were in a different political system you could find fault
with this, but based on the current system where people need funds to
survive, paying them for that valuable skill doesn't seem based on
subconscious religious issues to me.
I find it just amazing how far some people will go in their arguments on
this subject to ease their own conscience from theft. You argue that our
"morality" comes from a pre-programmed Judeo-Christian ethic, from my point
of view since I don't believe in a God, then the Ten Commandments came from
a human brain as well, with the threat of a "higher power" to enforce them.
So I guess we've had these basic "morals" all along, right? :)
Yes, I know- you just brought up "Ancient Cultures" for conversations sake,
in the middle of this piracy thread? It looks like desperation to me,
searching for any excuse. What the Myans did regarding personal
possessions hundreds of years ago is completely irrelevant now, our morals
adapt with the times. I have reason to protect my food and belongings now
when they're not growing on trees- you can it brainwashing, I call in
adapting my lifestyle to the environment.
Peter Willis
cynthia gage wrote:
>
> I'm just wondering how any of these studies were done in order to avoid
> culturally induced gender characteristics and differences. The
> experiments studied the strategies used by "boys" and "girls" to "parse
> sentenses and meanings they give to words"?...I was alwasys under the
> impression that language and grammer and speech WERE culturally induced?
> :)
> Cynthia
>
Now that you are here, you had better stay and keep us in line.
Your written contributions are greatly appreciated by all.
Feel free to supply code at will, and of course, Welcome aboard.
Peter
Peter Willis
Tenie Remmel wrote:
>
> matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
> >If I may thow in another factor:
> >
> >I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
> >underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
> >and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
> >are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
> >with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
> >exposure to legal action over said issues.
>
> I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
> The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
> all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
> also, except physical strength.
>
>
Women programmers tend to be more arrogant too....Apparently.;)
Peter
Unknown
Chris Gerber <ger...@Meena.CC.URegina.CA> wrote:
>And the old USSR didn't have them, because it wasn't (supposed to have
>been) based on greed and capitalism. I was referring to *ancient*
>societies that didn't view theft as wrong. My whole point was that the
>modern-day ethics are (probably) irrevocably steeped in the values of our
>christian ancestors back in the middle-ages. You don't have to be
>religious to be conditioned by the whole freaking world's morality;
>you've seen nothing but them since the day you were born. What I was
>saying is that no-one realizes where their "conscience" or sense of
>morality comes from. Most of it comes from the ten commandments, almost
>word-for-word. And your "in the interests of commerce" point... I said
>that myself in my post. Did you actually read anything beyond the part
>that you quoted, or did you just, right off the bat, respond?
>-chris
So which of these ancient societies allowed theft? There do exist small
'communities' that have common ownership, e.g. the kibbutz - but of course thats
jewish - part of the judeo-christian ethics. The point is that small
communities can work as you suggest but not large ones. It has nothing to do
with religion, judeo-christian or otherwise. I suggest you consider living on a
kibbutz.
cdgaefke@my_computer@sgi.net
>You have a verry _warped_ view of history. If stealing was not
>considered wrong in societies outside of chriristianity, why would the
>ancient Chineese need a judicial system to deal with such matters.
>After all they were isolated from christianity. Or if you are refirring
>to even older societies such as CroMagnon man or the primitive Mayans
>and Incas, I would like to know where you got your information, since
>even the archaeologists and physical/cultral anthropologists don't even
>know, because it was before written and verbal history.
In some countries thieves had their hand cut off. That strongly
discouraged theft. Hence where the expression "caught red handed" came from.
----------------
cdga...@sgi.net
[CDRMAIL Author]
[Team OS/2]
----------------
Darryl L. Pierce
R. Auge wrote:
> When will people accept the fact that saying one gender is better then
> another at anything is abolutely idiotic. There are excpetional women
> and exceptional men. There are also women and men who are complete
> dolts. I'd also like to point out that some people always try to bring
> up topics that are irrelevant in this debate. Men cannot give birth to
> a child, so saying that women are better at bearing children is
> absolutely irrelivant, as well as anything else that follows along this
> line.(I haven't seen this anywhere in this thread, but I have it heard
> it the past)
Perhaps it's the ones who bring it up at all who are feeling inferior
and need to "prove" otherwise? Why else would they need to mention it at
all if they didn't feel inferior themselves?
--
+------------------------------------------+------------------------+
| Darryl L. Pierce (kee...@sol.traken.com) | "Those not shocked by |
| Website: http://www.traken.com/~keeper/ | quantum theory have |
| Co. Website: http://www.traken.com/ | not understood it." |
+------------------------------------------+ Neils Bohr |
+------------------------+
Frank R. Szofran
cdgaefke@my_computer@sgi.net wrote:
> In some countries thieves had their hand cut off. That strongly
> discouraged theft. Hence where the expression "caught red handed" came from.
>
> ----------------
> cdga...@sgi.net
> [CDRMAIL Author]
> [Team OS/2]
> ----------------
Yah, from King Hrabbi(not sure about the name) who initiated the "eye
for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" laws, the muslem countries used to
though I do not know if any current countries still use this. Please
correct me if I am wrong.