R408A and mineral oil?
Joseph
lot of retrofitting in refrigeration units. I was checking up on the
drop-ins for R502. I am getting conflicting info on wether mineral oil is
compatible with R408A. Genetron says change to AB and National lists
mineral oil as compatible with R408A. My next step is to go to equipment
manufacturer but any insight would be appreciated.
Joseph
bill
"Joseph" <jrpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
You're supposed to have a 50-50 mix of AB and mineral minimum. Doesn't
have to be all AB.
That clear it up? 408 is an excellent replacement for 502. The PT chart
is practically identical.
Joseph
"TURTLE" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:348dgjF...@individual.net...
>
> "Joseph" <jrpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:10tttbj...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> We down here have just dropped it in and use the minerial oil and let her
go. I
> have not seen any problems later now on 5 to 8 years.
>
> Now the thing you better watch out for here is moisture in the system for
when
> you blow a charge somewhere in this action your getting moisture in it and
deal
> with it as a burn out with vacuum and driers. This maybe over doing it but
> hindsight is better than forsight. 408-A + Minural oil + Moisture = some
good
> stuff.
>
> TURTLE
>
Thanks Turtle, it's a slow leak and still has a few pounds of pressure
in it. I always do a pump down and new driers when I go into a system.
Copper rubbed against case and started to leak after many years of friction.
I am going to replace a section of the line rather than just patch it up
with silver solder.
Joseph
Joseph
"bill" <tsu...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:tsurber-F163A4...@news-server-fe-02.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <10tttbj...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Joseph" <jrpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I just had a walk-in freezer blow its charge of R502. I haven't
done a
> > lot of retrofitting in refrigeration units. I was checking up on the
> > drop-ins for R502. I am getting conflicting info on wether mineral oil
is
> > compatible with R408A. Genetron says change to AB and National lists
> > mineral oil as compatible with R408A. My next step is to go to
equipment
> > manufacturer but any insight would be appreciated.
> >
> > Joseph
>
> You're supposed to have a 50-50 mix of AB and mineral minimum. Doesn't
> have to be all AB.
> That clear it up?
Oh great, now it's AB, mineral or both. Yes I'd say that clears it up
nicely, thanks... :)
> 408 is an excellent replacement for 502. The PT chart
> is practically identical.
It was interesting reading, it appears it wont work well with cap tube
systems.
Joseph
bill
"Joseph" <jrpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "bill" <tsu...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:tsurber-F163A4...@news-server-fe-02.columbus.rr.com...
> > In article <10tttbj...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > "Joseph" <jrpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I just had a walk-in freezer blow its charge of R502. I haven't
> done a
> > > lot of retrofitting in refrigeration units. I was checking up on the
> > > drop-ins for R502. I am getting conflicting info on wether mineral oil
> is
> > > compatible with R408A. Genetron says change to AB and National lists
> > > mineral oil as compatible with R408A. My next step is to go to
> equipment
> > > manufacturer but any insight would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Joseph
> >
> > You're supposed to have a 50-50 mix of AB and mineral minimum. Doesn't
> > have to be all AB.
> > That clear it up?
>
> Oh great, now it's AB, mineral or both. Yes I'd say that clears it up
> nicely, thanks... :)
No. it's a 50% AB oil requirement to ensure adequate oil return.
It can be 60-40, 90-10 AB/ mineral, but a minimum of 50% AB.
> It was interesting reading, it appears it wont work well with cap tube
> systems.
>
> Joseph
R-404A doesn't work in cap tube systems either. Delfields reach-in shit
with it plug up.
bill
"Joseph" <jrpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Turtle could have gotten away with it because Copeland ships all
compressors with AB even if made for mineral like an R-12 compressor.
(PO excepted)
Just because it's working doesn't mean it's right.
lp13-30
it. Bill is right-- the PT charts are almost identical. I vaguely recall
reading about the AB vs mineral oil. I think the deciding factors were
length of lines and the evaporator temperature. Longer line runs and/or
very low evap temps require AB oil, whereas you can get by with MO on
shorter runs. I could be dead wrong here about this, and will try to
look into it more when I get home this evening. Larry
bill
LP1...@webtv.net (lp13-30) wrote:
Supposedly if the evaporator and condenser is within arms reach you can
get away without AB oil. This was in relation to R-409 and MP-39.
R-408 in a walk-in freezer I don't know. With the low temps I'd say they
would say add the AB. Remote- not a question.
Joseph
"lp13-30" <LP1...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20880-41...@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net...
Units are an arms length apart. Temps are 0 to -10.
Thanks, Joseph
Joseph
Thanks, Bill. I need to check up on mixing the oils but it sounds
reasonable to mix them for better oil return as LP said,
Joseph
TURTLE
This is Turtle.
You might try moving away from 408-A in the future if possible for 408-A is to
do away with someday and maybe move to R-507 / AZ-50 for it will be here for
ever.
Hey Bill What's wrong with that statement ?
TURTLE
Joseph
Actually if this repair is costly at all we'll replace it, as it is an
older unit. I think the trend here now is to go with R404a for the freezers
and 22 for the coolers. The 404a is a long term replacement and R22 will be
here long after I quit the trade.
Joseph
bill
"TURTLE" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Poe oil. If you are going to go to POE oil you might as well go R-404A.
As a retrofit, the 5% or less mineral oil requirement in a POE system
makes R-408A a better choice.
bill
"TURTLE" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> This is Turtle.
>
> Yes I can tell you about 408-A in walk-in freezers. If you have the old
> system
> just replace the 502 with 408-A and if you every change the compressor or the
> condenser out converte it over to 404-A and change the expanion valve to
> match
> it like Copland says to do. Also you will have a fresh load of that ABC oil
> in
> it.
You mean POE oil for R-404A. Right?
> Now Copland don't like R-409-A or Mp-39 in Copland freezer compressors.
I didn't mean for freezers I meant for oil return. R-409 and MP-39 as
you point out is medium temp R-12 replacements.
I guess I shouldn't have taken for granted you knew what I meant.
Also
> Dupont will tell you not to use MP-39 in walk-in freezers for your back
> pressure
> will be in a vacuum at times to get to the temp.s you want. Now you can use
> MP-66 / 404-A if you like.
Mp-66 as a R-12 replacement.
> Also Bill if you don't have a 7/8" swedge to straighten out 7/8" pipe with
> before you fit it. Egg shape the 7/8" collar to match the pipe and slip it on
> there. Don't worry about the restriction of the flow of the freon by being
> egg
> shaped pipe for you will save some money by not having a swedge and also get
> to
> work on it again by giving you trouble later down the road.
I can't ever remember having too many problems with 7/8 being egg shaped.
Guess I just cut it off and moved on. Come to think of it. I don't run
much soft 7/8.
> I love getting Stupit with you Bill !
>
> TURTLE
You can be as stupit as you like. I'm happy you have 7/8 swages to run
on about.
American Mechanical
Or it could be that if oil return isn't an issue the MO will work fine. I
doubt Turtle's gotten away with anything other than acceptable practices
according to National. I've used 408a in many walk-in freezers with no
problems. I have, however, used a 50-50 mix of AB/MO for HP-80.
- Robert
American Mechanical
> In article <34aia0F...@individual.net>,
> "TURTLE" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> This is Turtle.
>>
>> Yes I can tell you about 408-A in walk-in freezers. If you have the old
>> system
>> just replace the 502 with 408-A and if you every change the compressor or
>> the
>> condenser out converte it over to 404-A and change the expanion valve to
>> match
>> it like Copland says to do. Also you will have a fresh load of that ABC
>> oil
>> in
>> it.
>
> You mean POE oil for R-404A. Right?
>
>> Now Copland don't like R-409-A or Mp-39 in Copland freezer compressors.
>
> I didn't mean for freezers I meant for oil return. R-409 and MP-39 as
> you point out is medium temp R-12 replacements.
> I guess I shouldn't have taken for granted you knew what I meant.
I would assume he was speaking of those refrigerant's being unacceptable in
low temp R-12 retrofits.
- Robert
bill
"American Mechanical" <in...@aNmOeSrPiAcManmech.net> wrote:
> "bill" <tsu...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:tsurber-DCC7C1...@news.slurp.net...
> > In article <34aia0F...@individual.net>,
> > "TURTLE" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> >> This is Turtle.
> >>
> >> Yes I can tell you about 408-A in walk-in freezers. If you have the old
> >> system
> >> just replace the 502 with 408-A and if you every change the compressor or
> >> the
> >> condenser out converte it over to 404-A and change the expanion valve to
> >> match
> >> it like Copland says to do. Also you will have a fresh load of that ABC
> >> oil
> >> in
> >> it.
> >
> > You mean POE oil for R-404A. Right?
> >
> >> Now Copland don't like R-409-A or Mp-39 in Copland freezer compressors.
> >
> > I didn't mean for freezers I meant for oil return. R-409 and MP-39 as
> > you point out is medium temp R-12 replacements.
> > I guess I shouldn't have taken for granted you knew what I meant.
>
> I would assume he was speaking of those refrigerant's being unacceptable in
> low temp R-12 retrofits.
>
> - Robert
I quit making assumptions concerning Turtle.
bill
"Weasel" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> This is Weasel.
>
> I was not in your mine at the time and was not telling you what to think.
> Also
> we was talking about a walk-in freezer. I was never good at mine reading.
>
> Now to mine reading here. The part of me saying ABC oil to use with 404-A .
> If
> you could read my mine like usely done here you would have know I was talking
> about the ABC oil that they sell at the warehouse POE RL-68 . We refer to it
> as
> ABC earl or Aut-to Bee Close earl because you can put it in anything Copland
> makes. The [ POE RL-68 ] [ ABC earl ] [ Anything earl ] = Fits All . Now if
> you
> just don't know what to use on a certain application and can't call Bill to
> tell
> you what to use. Just pull out the jug of ABC oil or in your case for
> non-mine
> readers POE RL-68.
>
> Do some checking up and you will find it will go with R-12 , R-22 , 404-A,
> 408-A
> , 409-A , 134-A , 401-A , 507 , and you name it other freons. When in dought
> Whip out your jug of ABC earl / POE RL-68 . You know the ABC oil is a local
> thing but hey I thought you could read my mine and you should have known
> this.
>
Weasel
bill
"TURTLE" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> "bill" <tsu...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:tsurber-4EDCD5...@news.slurp.net...
> > In article <34bdrsF...@individual.net>,
> > "Weasel" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> This is Weasel.
> >>
> >> I was not in your mine at the time and was not telling you what to think.
> >> Also
> >> we was talking about a walk-in freezer. I was never good at mine reading.
> >>
> >> Now to mine reading here. The part of me saying ABC oil to use with 404-A
> >> .
> >> If
> >> you could read my mine like usely done here you would have know I was
> >> talking
> >> about the ABC oil that they sell at the warehouse POE RL-68 . We refer to
> >> it
> >> as
> >> ABC earl or Aut-to Bee Close earl because you can put it in anything
> >> Copland
> >> makes.
Oh?
What about this from AE-1248.
Polyol Ester Lubricants
Copeland has tested and approved the following polyol ester lubricants
for use in our compressors: Copeland Ultra 22CC Mobil EAL Arctic 22CC
ICI Emkarate RL 32CF Thermal Zone 22CC These lubricants have been
specifically formulated to meet our stringent demands and have been
found to be equivalent in performance. These POEs must be used if HFC
refrigerants are used in the system. They are also acceptable for use
with any of the traditional refrigerants or interim blends and are
compatible with mineral oils. They can therefore be mixed with mineral
oils when used in systems with CFC or HCFC refrigerants. These
lubricants are compatible with one another and can be mixed.
And this from 93-05 the 502 to 408 retrofit guide?
WARNING: Use only Copeland approved refrigerants and lubricants in the
manner prescribed by Copeland. In some circumstances, other refrigerants
and lubricants may be dangerous and could cause fires. explosions or
electrical shorting. Contact Copeland Corp., Sidney, Ohio.
No Rl-68 listed. Just which RL-68 do you mean? The S? H?
The [ POE RL-68 ] [ ABC earl ] [ Anything earl ] = Fits All . Now
> >> if
> >> you
> >> just don't know what to use on a certain application and can't call Bill
> >> to
> >> tell
> >> you what to use. Just pull out the jug of ABC oil or in your case for
> >> non-mine
> >> readers POE RL-68.
> >>
> >> Do some checking up and you will find it will go with R-12 , R-22 , 404-A,
> >> 408-A
> >> , 409-A , 134-A , 401-A , 507 , and you name it other freons. When in
> >> dought
> >> Whip out your jug of ABC earl / POE RL-68 . You know the ABC oil is a
> >> local
> >> thing but hey I thought you could read my mine and you should have known
> >> this.
> >>
> >
> > Weasel
In article <34c0fgF...@individual.net>,
"TURTLE" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> This is Turtle.
>
> Is that your Final Answer -- about all the data posted above?
I think it covered it just fine. I checked since you sorta insisted. And
added the above Copeland papers.
> Well I guess if
> you don't do it every day in your type of work. I would not have too much to
> say
> either.
Keep guessing.
> Also you could learn something from a Old Country Boy and that would
> be
> terrrrrrriable.
You mean college boy playing at country boy. Country boys tell it
straight. They don't post twisted shit like you have.
> I guess you knew POE RL-68 will fit anything , hummmm ?
I guess you thought you did.
> Your going to have to stop using the tag line of Weasel for some people may
> take
> it the wrong way.
>
> TURTLE
I'm sure you could twist it around for them.
bill
"TURTLE" <turtl...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> This is Turtle.
>
> The Blue Can Man -- The Blue Can man.
>
> TURTLE
Downs syndrome?
American Mechanical
>
> "American Mechanical" <in...@aNmOeSrPiAcManmech.net> wrote in message
> news:sq%Dd.12389$wi2....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Hey is that stuff HP-80 any good , any problems, any draw backs ? I've
> never tried it and was just a looking at it. Is it worth my time ?
>
> TURTLE
Nah, stick with the 408a and 404a for most applications. IMHO
- Robert
Dave Morrison
<snip>
>>
>>Hey is that stuff HP-80 any good , any problems, any draw backs ? I've
>>never tried it and was just a looking at it. Is it worth my time ?
>>
>>TURTLE
>
>
> Nah, stick with the 408a and 404a for most applications. IMHO
>
> - Robert
>
>
I use a lot of HP-80/402a and in hot climates it sucks. High side psi
goes through the roof. I expect high sides of 475psi in 110F ambient on
Thermo Kings and you can't make it work at all in Carriers. On the other
hand the high head takes out a lot of compressors and makes me a lot of
money :-). When it's allowed I use 408a, almost as good performance and
lower head psi.
Dave, In Tucson
American Mechanical
"Dave Morrison" <moonlig...@nospamqwest.net> wrote in message
news:41E193DD...@nospamqwest.net...
I haven't done an HP-80 retro in years. It just isn't that great compared
to the alternatives. The 'newer' replacement that I've come to like over
the last couple of years is R-416a for R-12 replacements. Lower head, great
stuff.
- Robert
TURTLE
"American Mechanical" <in...@aNmOeSrPiAcManmech.net> wrote in message
This is Turtle.
Hey What is the 406-A ? I remember the Whirlpool replacement that they accept
for replacement on freezers and refrigerator but I think it as 406-B or
something like that. Gentitles or Honeywell now don't list it and I have not
checked Dupont yet. 406 something rings a bell but I just can't picture it.
TURTLE
@starband.net ~KJPRO~
R-406A is a drop in replacment for R-12
(the original maker of hot shot, invented this after the original 'hot shot'
got taken due to lack of patent)
Works good, a little higher head pressure.
~kjpro~
TURTLE
"~KJPRO~" <KJPRO @ STARBAND.NET> wrote in message
news:ONpEd.510$CC3...@fe25.usenetserver.com...
This is Turtle.
Why thank you there for keeping that snake from bitting me on the ass. Hot Shot
, Yea, I bought a jug one time and the school board bought it off me and I never
got to try it out. OH Lord, I think a snake just bit me again. I can remember
using the cans of it for cars years back and it worked on cars pretty good.
You say works good but do you really see using it rather than something else ?
TURTLE
@starband.net ~KJPRO~
For what little R-12 work I do, I use the R-406A EVERYTIME!
~kjpro~
BTW, I'm a HVAC tech and don't go into the /R part much.
American Mechanical
416a is my choice.
- Robert
Joseph
snip
> >
> > For what little R-12 work I do, I use the R-406A EVERYTIME!
> >
> > ~kjpro~
> > BTW, I'm a HVAC tech and don't go into the /R part much.
>
> 416a is my choice.
>
> - Robert
Goes to show you that, you can't let yourself stagnate, hadn't heard of
or bothered checking on these two R406A or R416A. Will do now as I haven't
liked using the R414B (hotshot) much, thanks for the post.
Joseph
chillermfg
"American Mechanical" <in...@aNmOeSrPiAcManmech.net> wrote in message
- Robert
This is ReRe
That R-416a isn't too bad at all as Robert says. Problem is the compressor
MFGs don't like it and will void the warranty if they find out you are using
it. I know for sure of Copeland's policy on it. The bonus side is if you
have to send a comp back for warranty, the only refer they can detect is
134a, as it is the predominant Refrigerant in the 416a Blend. It has low
glide, low fractionization, (still not a good idea to top it off though).
The capacity really isn't there, but still better enthalpy than 134a. I'd
say, just from experience, it is right in the middle of 12 and 134a. You do
get lower head and lower amp draw, compressor runs a little cooler, but an
occasional flash as the condenser cycles.
ReRe
chillermfg
In article <10tuvqk...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Joseph" <jrpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "bill" <tsu...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:tsurber-F163A4...@news-server-fe-02.columbus.rr.com...
> > In article <10tttbj...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > "Joseph" <jrpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I just had a walk-in freezer blow its charge of R502. I haven't
> done a
> > > lot of retrofitting in refrigeration units. I was checking up on the
> > > drop-ins for R502. I am getting conflicting info on wether mineral
> > > oil
> is
> > > compatible with R408A. Genetron says change to AB and National lists
> > > mineral oil as compatible with R408A. My next step is to go to
> equipment
> > > manufacturer but any insight would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Joseph
> >
> > You're supposed to have a 50-50 mix of AB and mineral minimum. Doesn't
> > have to be all AB.
> > That clear it up?
>
> Oh great, now it's AB, mineral or both. Yes I'd say that clears it up
> nicely, thanks... :)
No. it's a 50% AB oil requirement to ensure adequate oil return.
It can be 60-40, 90-10 AB/ mineral, but a minimum of 50% AB.
> It was interesting reading, it appears it wont work well with cap
> tube
> systems.
>
> Joseph
R-404A doesn't work in cap tube systems either. Delfields reach-in shit
with it plug up.
Pardon me for interjecting, but we are using 404a on a multi-evap cap tube
system. Three evaps, one 1/3 HP Danfoss unit (LCHB0033), three equal cap
tube assy (supco #5) running 3 evaps at -10 to - 15 deg F. One hgbp
(sporlan) to prevent freezeup and allow the unit to run 24/7. Can't tell you
the process just yet, but you will be seeing them very soon. Marketing gurus
have the ball now. Let them play with that and then we will be building
these puppies all day everyday. Already have 4 protos that have been running
and have been displayed for about 8 mths straight now.
I must say though, for you guys who play with the cap tube all the time,
"God bless you", I tried for weeks to get someone to give me a ballpark on
how much and what size cap tube I needed (I had never used, sized, or done
anything with cap tube). Cap MFGs told me it's trial and error. Well some
500 feet of tube later, I had it down to Supco #5, 14' per circuit. Let me
tell you there is a lot of silphos in that 3/8" evap tube to fill that
gap... LOL. (I am kidding, Turtle)
ReRe
Jabs
>
> R-404A doesn't work in cap tube systems either. Delfields reach-in shit
> with it plug up.
I have seen Delfield 404A refrigerators with plugged cap tubes too. Even
after replacing the cap tubes, I've seen them plug up again. But I think we
came up with the solution. Now, after replacing the cap tubes, we install
an HH type liquid line filter and changed the charge from R404A to R408A.
Since then, we haven't seen any of them plug up. And besides, BY LAW,
Delfield *must* use a "non-ozone depleting refrigerant" when they
manufacture a refrigerator because they are an "OEM". However, I'm not an
"OEM". I'm a technician/contractor and therefore, the law doesn't restrict
me to *ONLY* using non-ozone depleting refrigerants when servicing
refrigeration equipment.
Jabs
bill
"Jabs" <NoS...@NoSpam.Com> wrote:
Thanks Jabs! That's good info.
AUSTIN1880
>the process just yet, but you will be seeing them very soon.
Is this the machine that makes water from air ?
Ed
chillermfg
"AUSTIN1880" <austi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20050111072612...@mb-m07.aol.com...
Ed
No, not at all. The only reason I cannot give out the process yet, according
to our lawyers, is because of patent, trademark... you get the idea.
But to answer you, no it is not the water / air thing.
ReRe
Jabs
Pardon me for interjecting. I know that the #2 thing that everybody wants
is "to save money". Therefore, I've always wanted to ask a refrigeration
manufacture these questions: How come manufactures use a cap-tube instead
of a TXV? Is it because The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) allows cap
tubes? How much more efficient is a TXV over a cap-tube? How much
manufacturing money does the manufacture save for using a cap-tube instead
of a TXV. How many more dollars does it cost the consumer in electricity
dollars for having a cap-tube instead of a TXV.
Jabs
chillermfg
"Jabs" <NoS...@NoSpam.Com> wrote in message
news:XrTEd.52581$Ew6....@twister.socal.rr.com...
ReRe,
Pardon me for interjecting. I know that the #2 thing that everybody wants
is "to save money". Therefore, I've always wanted to ask a refrigeration
manufacture these questions: How come manufactures use a cap-tube instead
of a TXV? Is it because The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) allows cap
tubes? How much more efficient is a TXV over a cap-tube? How much
manufacturing money does the manufacture save for using a cap-tube instead
of a TXV. How many more dollars does it cost the consumer in electricity
dollars for having a cap-tube instead of a TXV.
Jabs
Jabs,
I prefer 100% to use a TXV over cap tubes. As far as money savings, let me
just say, for that 1/3HP application that I cannot say too much about, we
are spending about the same for the cap tube as what we would spend for the
TXV. The problem with this one is Sporlan, Alco, Parker, Danfoss... could
not provide us with an expansion that coule regulate the 1/9 ton heat
exchangers efficiently. To my disbelief, the cap tube did. The problem arose
with the possibility of varied loads in each HE... one TXV could not support
3 different loads at the sime time. To use it would have required numerous
other valves and regulators which would have taken to weight, size, and
especially cost well beyond the range allowed by our customer.
Efficiency.. that is a double sided issue. If the cap-tube system is run
within the design parameters (all of the time), no fouling within heat
exchangers, filters changed and coils cleaned etc etc, the the cap tube
could be a very economical and efficient metering device. It will typically
maintain a more stable evap temp and pressure even when loads vary. If
chilling water, this can be a little more of a problem than a bonus. Heat
load diminishes yet the full load of refrigerant is still being passed
through the heat exchanger. without having the freeze stats and flow
switches and differential pressure circuits tied into the system, you may be
looking at a burst evap.
The TXVs are more forgiving of total system charge and you can control your
outlet superheat. You can almost always prevent liquid slugging your
compressor (within reason. TXVs are designed to operate in a range of
capacity. 50 to 130% capacity for example) If you have a 100 ton system and
your heat load drops to 20 tons, your TXV will not close off enough to keep
from slugging your compressor. Of course this is where the HGBP and
frequency drives and valve unloading all come into play.
Does it cost a customer more money if he / she has cap-tube instead of TXV
on their 3 Ton Trane system? Sometimes. When it is 90 degrees outside 20%
Humidity and you want to cool the house to 70... probably no reduction in
efficiency. 70 outside and you want to cool to 60.. whole different ball
game. That cap-tube was sized for a specific pressure drop. The pressure
drop requirement for the first scenario is quite a bit higher than the
second. The first one will also be fairly close to the ARI standard. This
would be a time that your cap-tube system is running as efficient as having
the fireplace on while trying to cool the house.
Cap-tube $$ as expected is less in qty. For the 404 system I keep
mentioning, we are ordering in 500' rolls and 3-5 rolls a pop. That will
know a few cents off an order over buying one 12' roll.
Same is true for expansion valves though, qty gets you the better deal.
That's all there is to it. Since we are a fairly small company, we as the
OEM do not get much better a deal than you guys. What does get me though, is
when a customer screws up his chiller system and calls us to get it fixed.
As the OEM we really don't have an on the road service dept. Our
distributors are "supposed" to provide that. They are as ignorant to the
chiller as the customer. So they call in Stor... er uh some HVAC tech that
has never seen a chiller. 60% of the time, the guy is pretty good. He at
least knows enough to call instead of just change parts. Well, this guy
charges me $27 / # R22, a vacuum charge $25, a recovery charge $125, trip in
and trip out $?, a brazing charge $25, a materials charge and then some
labor on that. What burns my ass more than any of it is the recovery charge.
It would be somewhat acceptable if the system wasn't flat. He was there to
fix the liquid line that got forked from a forklift. All gas was gone.
Recovery charge for what? Of course $27 a pound I thought was a bit
excessive. Go to Refron and get your gas. I pay with the new increase, $1.82
/ # for 22. Sad thing he spent 11 hours repairing this unit. Hell I still
have the pics somewhere, but the damage was a hole in a bend of a 12" piece
of 3/8" soft copper. Stay Brited into the liquid line drier, and flared to
the King valve on the receiver. Any one of you could have removed the 4
screws that hold the louver in place, loosened the rotolock on the king
valve and removed the flare from the seat. Then fired up your oxy acetylene,
or hell butane, torch and unsweated the staybrite. Take approx 5 minutes to
make a new bend, add flare nut and flare, clean paste and resweat to
drier.... well go ahead and replace the drier, so add 5 more minutes, 3/8"
ODF both sides, (Sporlan C-164S). Total time 30 minutes max. Nitro, evac,
then vacuum for another hour. Micron gauge looks good, charge it with 7 # of
22 flick the switch and run it.
What I am getting at here is was my company burned, or is this normal field
time and $$? I am just asking because like I said we aren't in the field.
Well I let this one go way too far. Sorry guys!
Summary,
Cap tube = OK ($$.5)
TXV = Better ( my choice) ($$$)
Consumer dollars more because conditions change. In a lab, cap tube just as
good.
Again, sorry so long. I am sure there will be some "snips"
RERE
Jabs
Thank you very much for your informative reply to my question. It was very
interesting and helpful to me. As for the invoice you received, I believe
you probably received a good repair job from the technician/contractor.
However, I must say that there are many more technician/contractors that
would have made just as good of a repair - more of them than not. I have
found that OEM's can throw a lot service work at a technician/contractor
than most other customers can.....especially if the technician/contractor
discounts their service rates for an OEM. I may be wrong but I always
thought service rates were always discounted for an OEM......because my
company does warranty work for several OEM's an they all get a discounted
service rate. The main reason is; they throw a lot of work our way.
Unfortunately, the warranty work they give us is usually more trouble than
it's *initially" worth. However, it opens a lot of doors for us to meet new
people & acquire more customers that can eventually become much more
profitable at a later date in the future...........and we definitely plan on
being around at a later date in the future. As a result, the
technician/contractor that you dealt with to repair the liquid line you
mentioned, whether he's aware of it or not, if he fails to discount his
rates for an OEM he may not be around too much longer - in the future.
Jabs
"chillermfg" <chill...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:qoUEd.1409$yY6.620@attbi_s02...
chillermfg
"Jabs" <NoS...@NoSpam.Com> wrote in message
ReRe,
Thank you very much for your informative reply to my question. It was very
interesting and helpful to me. As for the invoice you received, I believe
you probably received a good repair job from the technician/contractor.
However, I must say that there are many more technician/contractors that
would have made just as good of a repair - more of them than not. I have
found that OEM's can throw a lot service work at a technician/contractor
than most other customers can.....especially if the technician/contractor
discounts their service rates for an OEM. I may be wrong but I always
thought service rates were always discounted for an OEM......because my
company does warranty work for several OEM's an they all get a discounted
service rate. The main reason is; they throw a lot of work our way.
Unfortunately, the warranty work they give us is usually more trouble than
it's *initially" worth. However, it opens a lot of doors for us to meet new
people & acquire more customers that can eventually become much more
profitable at a later date in the future...........and we definitely plan on
being around at a later date in the future. As a result, the
technician/contractor that you dealt with to repair the liquid line you
mentioned, whether he's aware of it or not, if he fails to discount his
rates for an OEM he may not be around too much longer - in the future.
Jabs
Jabs,
Fortunately (knock on wood) for us, we have very little as far as service
calls and repairs. Most of the time it is because of the so called
maintenance dept not doing maintenance. When the air filter has more hair
than Woodstock, it may be time to clean it. When that big steel I-Beam fell
off the trolly crane and landed on the chiller, it may have been a good idea
to take a look at it to see if anything was damaged. When the 2nd shift
sleeper crew comes in and closes all the valves and then jumps out the flow
switch and freeze stat, again I don't feel that it should be our problem, or
an outside tech for that matter. Now I am not saying we should turn away, I
am just saying when the customer is going up our butt about junk equipment
and so on, when was the last time he ran his car without oil in the
crankcase or disconnected his radiator hose and let his car run all day? For
some reason, even very intelligent people get really stupid around chiller
and HVAC-R equipment in general. I guess it is what keeps us in business
sometimes..
ReRe
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
<chill...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>Fortunately (knock on wood) for us, we have very little as far as service
>calls and repairs. Most of the time it is because of the so called
>maintenance dept not doing maintenance. When the air filter has more hair
>than Woodstock, it may be time to clean it.
Or start a really cool rain-dance in the mud and warn people
about the brown acid !
( sorry - had a 'moment' there ... )
> When that big steel I-Beam fell
>off the trolly crane and landed on the chiller, it may have been a good idea
>to take a look at it to see if anything was damaged.
And change my shorts.
> When the 2nd shift
>sleeper crew comes in and closes all the valves and then jumps out the flow
>switch and freeze stat,
Kee-rist - had a boss do that once - froze the barrel on a 150
ton 6 compressor chiller, froze that bitch right solid he did, blew
the end manifold gasket out ( lucky him, he didn't corrupt the bundle
). That's EXACTLY what he did. He shut the fucking 12" manual CHW
valves, then he jumped each and every safety out when it tripped, one
at a time ...... what a fucking maroon.
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
@starband.net ~KJPRO~
> ReRe,
> Thank you very much for your informative reply to my question. It was
very
> interesting and helpful to me. As for the invoice you received, I believe
> you probably received a good repair job from the technician/contractor.
> However, I must say that there are many more technician/contractors that
> would have made just as good of a repair - more of them than not. I have
> found that OEM's can throw a lot service work at a technician/contractor
> than most other customers can.....especially if the technician/contractor
> discounts their service rates for an OEM. I may be wrong but I always
> thought service rates were always discounted for an OEM......because my
> company does warranty work for several OEM's an they all get a discounted
> service rate. The main reason is; they throw a lot of work our way.
> Unfortunately, the warranty work they give us is usually more trouble than
> it's *initially" worth. However, it opens a lot of doors for us to meet
new
> people & acquire more customers that can eventually become much more
> profitable at a later date in the future...........and we definitely plan
on
> being around at a later date in the future. As a result, the
> technician/contractor that you dealt with to repair the liquid line you
> mentioned, whether he's aware of it or not, if he fails to discount his
> rates for an OEM he may not be around too much longer - in the future.
>
> Jabs
Being in business in the future for that service company may or may not be
an issue for not discounting his/her rates to an OEM.
It all is going to depend on the amount of OEM work that he does and rather
they can find another quality company in his area to complete the work load.
After all, we can't help it he charges all his clients equally! :-)
(as giving discounts to one client CAN get you into more trouble)
~kjpro~
Jabs
it's *initially" worth. However, it opens a lot of doors for us to meet new
people & acquire more customers that can eventually become much more
profitable at a later date in the future..........
I call it "Marketing"!
Jabs
AUSTIN1880
>>the process just yet, but you will be seeing them very soon.
>
>Is this the machine that makes water from air ?
>
>Ed
>
>No, not at all. The only reason I cannot give out the process yet, according
>to our lawyers, is because of patent, trademark... you get the idea.
>But to answer you, no it is not the water / air thing.
>
>ReRe
>
I saw these machines on HGTV this past weekend. Now that everyone it seems is
buying bottled water, it might just take off. At 50 % RH, it makes about 1
liter/hr.
Ed