Me A vampire? That's new? Fax
10604...@compuserve.com
To answer all those who believe that i am a Vamp :
1: A ShapeStealer is really different than a vamp.
2: no need to make a war here.
3:This kind of Creatures are Weres too , even if some dislike this , it's not my fault.
i hope this time , you will understand that i am not a Vamp.
I just sayd on IRC , that i am a shapestealer , just this.
nothing else , if i remember well. Oh , i know , a different Were can be scary sometimes ,
i never ate someone , you know.
So , now i have really fed up with this rumor.
I don't wanna more war. NO one need me for that.
If really someone tell me what's wrong , maybe i'll answer , all this makes me tired.
It's my last post at this subject.
That's all.
Have a nice week.
Fax.
James Harrion III
10604...@compuserve.com wrote:
:
: To answer all those who believe that i am a Vamp :
:
: 1: A ShapeStealer is really different than a vamp.
How so?
I'll concede that perhaps I misinterpreted you, but a shapestealer, at least
in this language, means someone who finds the shapes of others and steals
them, with the theft being nonconsensual.
I personally do not consider that to be that much different from taking
somebody's energy nonconsensually.
: 2: no need to make a war here.
: 3:This kind of Creatures are Weres too , even if some dislike this , it's not my fault.
Why is a shapestealer a were?
--
***********************************************************************
Winterdreamer ez04...@ucdavis.edu
AHWW pack member
Kyra Marie Glore
In <4qmree$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu> ez04...@boris.ucdavis.edu (James
Harrion III) writes:
>
>10604...@compuserve.com wrote:
>:
>: To answer all those who believe that i am a Vamp :
>:
>: 1: A ShapeStealer is really different than a vamp.
>
>How so?
>
>I'll concede that perhaps I misinterpreted you, but a shapestealer, at
least
>in this language, means someone who finds the shapes of others and
steals
>them, with the theft being nonconsensual.
>
>I personally do not consider that to be that much different from
taking
>somebody's energy nonconsensually.
>
a Vampire means to be of a different race. Just because one "steals"
enegry from someone doesn't make them a Vamp... There's a lot of
complex stuff that goes along with being a vamp. It just isn't blood
drinking or enegry sucking. What I am drinks blood and enegry but it
not a vampire...and (accosionally) eats human flesh but is no Witiko.
Any of you could howl...but does that make you a wolf if you're a Cat?
There's more to being something than meets the eye...
>: 2: no need to make a war here.
>: 3:This kind of Creatures are Weres too , even if some dislike
this , it's not my fault.
>
>Why is a shapestealer a were?
That depends on you're definition of "were". If it means one who
can mentally shift, then yes.(I'm guessing) If It means one who has an
animal totem, then it depends...
I am no shapestealer.....So I cannot speak for those who truly
are... but I thought I'd put my two cents worth in because the topic
was intresting to me.
------------------------
~~~The Dark Knight
"Have you ever felt the soul slip away from a fresh kill???
There is no sweeter feeling for a true preador to experience..."
-The Hunter of Legend
Jacques Mc Donough
>I'll concede that perhaps I misinterpreted you, but a shapestealer, at
least
>in this language, means someone who finds the shapes of others and
steals
>them, with the theft being nonconsensual.
>
>I personally do not consider that to be that much different from
taking
>somebody's energy nonconsensually.
<Heartsong groans and covers his eyes with his paws>.
Do we have to go over this whole Were vs. vamp thing again. Please, it
does nothing but create animosity. I have talked with Fax since his
first introduction to ahww, and the guy has been flamed quite often
since that time. I do not know why? This is not aimed at you,
Winterdreamer, by the way. I just need to get this off of my chest.
Too many are too eager to want to fight lately. Even I have fallen
victim to heightened aggressiveness. Many will jump on someone's case
in a heartbeat. Why? Why are we attacking other Weres? What does it
serve us? Does it make us better? No. It does not. Does it
strengthen our position in the pack? No. It only serves to create
further animosity. It accomplishes nothing. Let's end this thread
here and now. Please.
Howls,
Heartsong
"Are we wolves or rabid dogs?"
James Harrion III
: In <4qmree$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu> ez04...@boris.ucdavis.edu (James
: Harrion III) writes:
: One who can soul-siphon isn't a Vamp.... A Vamp is different. To be
: a Vampire means to be of a different race.
Why so?
Just because one "steals"
: enegry from someone doesn't make them a Vamp... There's a lot of
: complex stuff that goes along with being a vamp. It just isn't blood
: drinking or enegry sucking. What I am drinks blood and enegry but it
: not a vampire...and (accosionally) eats human flesh but is no Witiko.
So by this logic, even assuming that Fax could assume the form of a wolf
or were, why would that make him a were?
: That depends on you're definition of "were". If it means one who
: can mentally shift, then yes.(I'm guessing) If It means one who has an
: animal totem, then it depends...
My intellectual definition of "were" means an individual who has a more or
less permanent spiritual connection with either an extant animal species
or mythological creature: my emotional definition (and I'd definitely say
I have one) is a bit more intangible. By my standard, some weres mentally
shift, and some don't.
Thrasher
(HeartSong) wrote:
> "Are we wolves or rabid dogs?"
I dunno about you, but I'm a dog.
-- Thrasher
Kyra Marie Glore
Harrion III) writes:
>
>Kyra Marie Glore (dkni...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: In <4qmree$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu> ez04...@boris.ucdavis.edu (James
>: Harrion III) writes:
>
>: One who can soul-siphon isn't a Vamp.... A Vamp is different. To
be
>: a Vampire means to be of a different race.
>
>Why so?
I don't know why. It just...is.:)
>
> Just because one "steals"
>: enegry from someone doesn't make them a Vamp... There's a lot of
>: complex stuff that goes along with being a vamp. It just isn't blood
>: drinking or enegry sucking. What I am drinks blood and enegry but it
>: not a vampire...and (accosionally) eats human flesh but is no
Witiko.
>
>So by this logic, even assuming that Fax could assume the form of a
wolf
>or were, why would that make him a were?
I'm getting to that...hold on.:)
>
>: That depends on you're definition of "were". If it means one who
>: can mentally shift, then yes.(I'm guessing) If It means one who has
an
>: animal totem, then it depends...
>
>My intellectual definition of "were" means an individual who has a
more or
>less permanent spiritual connection with either an extant animal
species
>or mythological creature: my emotional definition (and I'd definitely
say
>I have one) is a bit more intangible. By my standard, some weres
mentally
>shift, and some don't.
I was pondering over this topic the other night and finally
concluded that perhaps the word "stealing" should be changed to "clone"
or "borrow". For a second let's forget this is even looked at on a
physical level. If its totally spirtual perhaps he doesn't "steal" as
much as "clone" a victims were-creature. All our were personallities
are different in some way.... correct? Including their appearence.
Perhaps Fax is somewhat spirtually cloning other peoples fimilars,
totems, (call them what you will). But when he does so he retains a
perment connection to the creature he "borrowed". Thus permintally
inheriting their traits. That then, by definition, would make him a
were. Or, at least, a psudo-were.
I'm playing "devil's advocate" here.....so you all know.:)
Just another thought...
Pondering...
--------------------
~~~The Dark Knight
"I think, therefore I am..."
Parrhesia
(James Harrion III) writes:
>: 1: A ShapeStealer is really different than a vamp.
>How so?
>I'll concede that perhaps I misinterpreted you, but a shapestealer, at
least
>in this language, means someone who finds the shapes of others and steals
>them, with the theft being nonconsensual.
>I personally do not consider that to be that much different from taking
>somebody's energy nonconsensually.
It seems fairly clear, Winterdreamer, from the IRC log you yourself posted
that 'shapestealer' to Fax means 'changeling' or the equivient in english.
She/he (sorry, can't remember which you are, Fax) clearly stated that
they simply needed to see a subject to replicate their form. A
doppelganger, if you will. Absolulty nothing vampiric about it, as
nothing is being 'taken' (and since when were vamps the only ones who take
things from others?)
As for being a were...I admit I don't see how being a changeling would
make one a were, as being a were is having another side to yourself, where
as a changeling could perhaps become a wolf, but wouldn't feel that they
were one. Perhaps I am wrong, and being a changeling would mean mastery
and one-ness with all forms (wow!) or perhaps Fax's wereness has nothing
to do with their changeling side.
Fax, can I suggest using another term for 'shape-stealer' such as
changeling? It would perhaps clear things up and prevent mistakes in the
future.
-parr
"where have I hidden my heart--
under stone and far apart..."
James Harrion III
: In article <4qprq1$d...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, di...@ix.netcom.com
: (HeartSong) wrote:
:
: > "Are we wolves or rabid dogs?"
:
: I dunno about you, but I'm a dog.
I'm c) none of the above.
Coyote Osborne
(James Harrion III) wrote:
> Thrasher (be...@scn.org) wrote:
> : In article <4qprq1$d...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, di...@ix.netcom.com
> : (HeartSong) wrote:
> :
> : > "Are we wolves or rabid dogs?"
> :
> : I dunno about you, but I'm a dog.
>
> I'm c) none of the above.
I happen to be a Coyote... and no... that's not rabies... just been
browsing the roadkill again.
: )=
Coyote
--
---
Coyote Osborne;1085 NE 179 Terrace;North Miami Beach, FL 33162
Visit the Heart's Dream Web Pages:
http://www.shadow.net/~stygianv/hdream/index.html
Visit My Own webpage (Not much there yet, but some of my art)
http://www.shadow.net/~stygianv/Coyote/index.html
James Harrion III
: In article <4qmree$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez04...@boris.ucdavis.edu
: (James Harrion III) writes:
:
: It seems fairly clear, Winterdreamer, from the IRC log you yourself posted
: that 'shapestealer' to Fax means 'changeling' or the equivient in english.
Agreed: perhaps polymorph would be a better word for it though since it
also doesn't have quite the connotation it's acquired through DS9.
JRuppel685
I've got something important to tell you!
When I first started lurking about the NG, I did notice this big to-do
about Fax. I was curious about this, so I waited and watched what
knowledge about Fax would be unearthed. So far, all that has really been
uncovered is this:
1) Fax was a Shapestealer, and is now a Werewolf.
2) Fax has used dark magick to become a Shapestealer.
The questions that haven't been answered (but truly need to be) are these:
1) What is a Shapestealer? One rumor is that a Shapestealer is a
mistranslation, and he is a Changeling. Frankly, I don't know what a
Changeling really is, either.
2) Is interacting with Fax dangerous? This is the $64,000 question.
Obviously, if this is true, wisdom dictates that one should avoid Fax.
Even though these questions need to be answered, none of us here really
had any answers to these questions.
...Until now.
This weekend, I went to a local convention, where I met an old
acquaintance of mine. He is most definitely a werewolf (he's only had
Mental Shifts, though). He has also done EXTENSIVE historical research on
Shifterism. I mean, he's checked out Native American Shamanism back and
front. He's acquired texts from 16th century Europe. He's even read oldest
known written copy of Beowulf. When I've talked to him, he was about to
learn Norse runes, so he research Werewolves in the times before
Christianity existed in Europe!
Anyway, I started talking to him about werewolves and shapeshifting in
general, which turned out to be the most entertaining thing at the con. I
got around to asking him if he's heard about Shapestealers. To my
surprise, he had. The two pieces of information I got out of him were:
1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
2) They are big trouble and I should avoid them at ALL costs.
Based on all of this I've drawn my own opinions about Fax:
1) Fax used Black Magick to become a Shapestealer (hey, he admitted it).
2) If he is still a Shapestealer, I'm going to assume that my friend is
right, and that there is no mistranslation.
3) Even if he is no longer a Shapestealer, even if he no longer uses Black
Magick, there is this:
The trouble with Black Magick is that even after you stop using it, it
does not necessarily stop using you. I believe that because of his
practices, he has become tainted. He may mean well, and not wish to harm
anyone, but he'll end up corrupting anyone he comes in contact with,
becuase of the nasties that are still attracted to him.
In short, I'm not touching him with a ten foot pole. My advice to you is
to use the same amount of caution.
I know that I'm new here, and I'm effectively baring my throat to you
(*rolls over*). And you may end up tearing it out, and no longer speak to
me. But I don't care if you do! I just don't want to see any of you get
hurt. Please, for your sakes, take care!
Jeff
Howling Heart
>
> Jeff, the newly awakened werewolf, whimpers in dismay.
>
Hi Jeff and welcome to the fires.
I have only one question, out of curiosity. This is since I've studied
mythologies since I was a young cub.Mainly pre-Christian Europe and
especially Scandinavian. (Living in Sweden).
) ) ) rrripped for brevity
> got around to asking him if he's heard about Shapestealers. To my
> surprise, he had. The two pieces of information I got out of him were:
>
> 1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
>
I had only heard of Shapestealers a few times before this (a Malaysian
spirit, some Pacific legends) and never of Flesh Dancers. Did he tell you
from what culture/mythology the concept stems?
"Please do not confuse mythology with myths."
Care & Take Care,
-=HOWLING=-
-=HEART=-
>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<
a.k.a.
Sinclair Andersen,
physically residing in Stockholm, Sweden
but you are always welcome to my
Cyber L@ir at http://www.algonet.se/~edge/wolf
or mail me: ed...@algonet.se
=+= My opponent knew me so well, =+=
=+= I had to make a move that surprised us both =+=
>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<
Howling Heart
The Steel Wolf wrote:
> ) ) ) RRIP
>
> I've heard shapestealers referred to as doppelgangers before as well.
> I'm not sure about the origin, but from the etymology of
> "doppelganger", I'd be inclined to look for German mythological roots.
>
> THE STEEL WOLF
>
Yes, SW. The word Doppelgaenger is German. But the DG, as the Scottish
Waff is not a shapestealer (except in some RPGs), but a man's
co-walker, a shadow or wraith, sometimes seen by those with second sight
or a friend when someone is about to die.
Robert Kirk (Secret Commonwealth of Elves, Fauns and Faeires) thinks they
are a kind of faeire though, albeit with much the same function;
participating at funeral banquets, carrying the beer or coffin along with
mortal men and so forth.
And the Malaysian shapestealers (can't remember the name. I'll check it
up) steal normal villagers spirits and forms, not powers from medicine
men, abilities from weres, etc.
Care & Take Care,
Howling Heart (supposed to be working)
JRuppel685
In article <31D6C0...@algonet.se>, Howling Heart <ed...@algonet.se>
writes:
>I have only one question, out of curiosity. This is since I've studied
>mythologies since I was a young cub.Mainly pre-Christian Europe and
>especially Scandinavian. (Living in Sweden).
>
>) ) ) rrripped for brevity
>
>> got around to asking him if he's heard about Shapestealers. To my
>> surprise, he had. The two pieces of information I got out of him were:
>>
>> 1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
>>
>
>I had only heard of Shapestealers a few times before this (a Malaysian
>spirit, some Pacific legends) and never of Flesh Dancers. Did he tell you
>from what culture/mythology the concept stems?
>
>"Please do not confuse mythology with myths."
>
Yes, I will acknowledge the possbility that what my friend read about
Shapestealers is just a myth. Part of my conviction is just a gut feeling.
I believe the information he gathered, in this case at least, is from some
moldy Renaissance text from Britain. I'm trying to get Jeff (yes, another
Jeff) to find the reference so I can get more details. I'm also trying to
get him to read this newsgroup. Actually, he would probably love talking
to you in particular.
Y'all come back, y'hear! :)
Jeff
JRuppel685
Okay, I've gotten just a little more info from by friend about
Shapestealers. First, a slight correction: they are known as Skin Dancers,
not Flesh Dancers. More importantly, I found out why they are supposed to
be bad news.
The book he has read made associations between necromancy and certain
kinds of shapeshifting, such as Shapestealing.
Of note, my friend made a distinction between black magick and necromancy,
namely that black magick is bad news, but necromancy is film-at-eleven bad
news.
He also warned me that Fax could possibly take advantage of the communal
Shifting that's about to be attempted, effectively Shapestealing from the
whole group. If you're trying to participate in this group Shift, stop
immediately if anything goes wrong (which is good advice anyway).
Good luck with the group Shift,
Jeff
"Don't worry about the lions you can see, worry about the lions you can't
see."
- quote of unknown origin
Coyote Osborne
In article <4r0d36$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, parr...@aol.com
(Parrhesia) wrote:
> Fax, can I suggest using another term for 'shape-stealer' such as
> changeling? It would perhaps clear things up and prevent mistakes in the
> future.
For what it is worth... I am not personally for the "PC-ing" of what
someone wants to call themselves.
Perhaps Fax knows more perfectly what he is than the rest of us. Fax
should choose what to call himself. (I am assuming he here... I had the
impression that Fax is a guy).
For what it is worth... here is my 2 cents worth on what a shapestealer is...
A being taht is able to observe another being, and copy somethign of it's
appearance or nature. They can make themselves look ro feel, (in short
"Seem") like that other type of being.
It is called shapestealing because it is not done by the person having the
altered nature "for real" but by learning it from observing another.
It's not necessarily a "bad" thing to do in and of itself. It's what you
make of it. Fax has apparently done some thigns he regrets and is not
proud of and feels were wrong. These were mistakes... not a sign that
"Shapestealing is evil".
There could be made an argument that "stealing" a shape is not good
because it is done by capitalizing on teh learning and sacrifices of
others... i.e. they do all the work and one "steals" the trick without
having to go through the same ordeals/journeys/trials.
And certainly it can be used to gain a power that one would not have
access to normally, without having to have the wisdom that goes with
learning it or the inherent nature that is part of it... but that can be
used for good or evil.
Now.. on the other hand... an argument COULD be made that one who changes
their form benignly in this manner is a changeling, and one who uses this
ability for "ill" is a shapestealer... but it's all, IMHO, semantics.
Now... I think the original issue that was of concern to some people is
whether Fax is (or was) an evil, bad person or not.
I can't say that this is of tremendous concern to me at the moment, so
I'll shut up now. : )
Rowsby T-Wolf
JRuppel685 wrote:
*ROWSBY SAVAGES TEXT!*
> 2) Is interacting with Fax dangerous? This is the $64,000 question.
> Obviously, if this is true, wisdom dictates that one should avoid Fax.
Please don't add to this situation by making things more volitile than they
need to
be. Fax is fine. He lives in FRANCE. HOW on earth could he hurt you? Put a
HEX on
you? *rolls eyes in head* Please...
> Even though these questions need to be answered, none of us here really
> had any answers to these questions.
I take it you never spoke to the source of it all: Fax himself. The answers
can only
be found in one place and I can tell you didn't look there... :(
> ...Until now.
*growl*
*Met Self Professed WereWolf Scholar at a CON*
>
> Anyway, I started talking to him about werewolves and shapeshifting in
> general, which turned out to be the most entertaining thing at the con. I
> got around to asking him if he's heard about Shapestealers. To my
> surprise, he had. The two pieces of information I got out of him were:
>
> 1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
Yes, read DUNE, and you'll see the word there too. It has to do with physical
shifting, a learned way to mimic the shapes of other beings. There is nothing
specifically evil about it any more than being a WEREWOLF! Sheesh...
> 2) They are big trouble and I should avoid them at ALL costs.
Why? Lets get some details, since you're ruining somone's Internet life
here...
> Based on all of this I've drawn my own opinions about Fax:
OPINION is the key word here... You have not spoken to FAX yourself, and just
because
you talked to someone who had NOTHING to do with the misunderstandings on IRC
in the
first place, you decide to take off on a mission to sway fellow weres here to
shun
him. *low growl*
IMHO, this is VERY is very whelpish and irrisponsible thing to have done...
Especially for a newcommer... I understand you loyalty to the pack, but
you've
created more problems than solved by not thinking about the effects of your
post.
> 1) Fax used Black Magick to become a Shapestealer (hey, he admitted it).
So? As long as he does not harm anyone or anything, I really don't care. His
belief
system is his realm, not ours. Many AHWWers do rituals, and some people would
call it
black magic, simply because it differs from THEIR belief system.
I don't know about you, but I'm here to learn more about being were, and try
to make
some friends as I go thru life as best I can, at the time I do it--not to
attack,
defame or cause harm to those who are suspected of being somehow "different".
Isn't that why *WE* are all here now? Our differences should be the GLUE that
holds
us together, not used as an excuse to use the crutches of fear and ignorance!
This whole things smells utterly HUMAN to me! :(
> 2) If he is still a Shapestealer, I'm going to assume that my friend is
> right, and that there is no mistranslation.
You make friends quickly. And seem willing to make enemies of somone you've
not
spoken with even quicker... :( How tragically sad.
> 3) Even if he is no longer a Shapestealer, even if he no longer uses Black
> Magick, there is this:
>
> The trouble with Black Magick is that even after you stop using it, it
> does not necessarily stop using you. I believe that because of his
> practices, he has become tainted.
What you BELIEVE is based on a lot of superstition, no hard facts, and a guy
you just
met who wasn't involved and answered your (most likely) biased questions as
best he
could.
*Rowsby twitches an ear as he hears the other wolf's credibility crash to the
ground*
> He may mean well, and not wish to harm
> anyone, but he'll end up corrupting anyone he comes in contact with,
> becuase of the nasties that are still attracted to him.
So your saying that he can never again gain the good graces our presence,
simply
because his purported past actions will always linger with him? Even if he
dosen't
practice the arcane arts anymore?
Can you sit there, reading this--not feel some remorse within you for posting
such a
heartlessly cruel, totally destructive and unfeeling statement? And not even
consider
the impact of your words on FAX or his friends?
*GNASH! SNARL!*
> In short, I'm not touching him with a ten foot pole. My advice to you is
> to use the same amount of caution.
I smell fear. I smell ignorance. I smell youthful, unthinking folly.
Combined, the
stink is quite unbearable... *SNORT!*
> I know that I'm new here, and I'm effectively baring my throat to you
> (*rolls over*). And you may end up tearing it out, and no longer speak to
> me.
*Rowsby sniffs the funny smelling wolf and then trots off a short distance
away*
If you can see the path you've taken, and have the courage to seek
enlightenment, then
I can one day call you friend. :)
> But I don't care if you do! I just don't want to see any of you get
> hurt. Please, for your sakes, take care!
I understand your protective instincts, but they are misguided. Open your
heart to
the truth you hiding inside you--that this post of yours has quite probably
caused
more pain than FAX could ever do to any packemember. :(
And when you tire from being so foul-smelling, come talk to me.
Take care,
Rowsby
--
/\ _
/ \\ /| ___________________________________ . .
|__|\_/_| | ~ ROWSBY T-WOLF ~ | .(|_|).
/ ((._.)\____ | AHWW Packmember/3D Animation & | (|/ \|)
/ / __ . .\/\ __| M U L T I M E D I A Student @ | (___)
/ ` \_._/\/ _/ The Art Institute of Pittsburgh |
\(\ \___V_/V \__ BFA in 2D Media. Dec 1992, BGSU | A Wolf
\_ \( /) |___________________________________| Within
\ / csri...@city-net.com
Jeffrey Reynolds
Parrhesia (parr...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <4qmree$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez04...@boris.ucdavis.edu
: (James Harrion III) writes:
:
:
: >How so?
:
: >I'll concede that perhaps I misinterpreted you, but a shapestealer, at
: least
: >in this language, means someone who finds the shapes of others and steals
: >them, with the theft being nonconsensual.
:
: >I personally do not consider that to be that much different from taking
: >somebody's energy nonconsensually.
: It seems fairly clear, Winterdreamer, from the IRC log you yourself posted
: that 'shapestealer' to Fax means 'changeling' or the equivient in english.
: they simply needed to see a subject to replicate their form. A
: doppelganger, if you will. Absolulty nothing vampiric about it, as
: nothing is being 'taken' (and since when were vamps the only ones who take
: things from others?)
I do not see how it could. I've always seen a changeling as one
who can other forms(within limits). I wouldn't expect a changeling to
need to take the form of a specific person or were. Taking the form of
another person is as much vampiric as taking their energies, whether the
'victim' consents to it or not.
I think that 'doppelganger' is more appropriate than changeling
in the resepct that a doppelganger take another's shape. That I would
still consider to have a vampiric aspect. In as it takes something that
is supposedly unique to the individual being taken from.
As to vamps not being the only to take from others, I agree they
don't. We all take from others, in one form or another. I do no see that
as the same as taking anothers energy or shape.
I do not agree with the idea of a 'shape-stealer'. To me one's
appearance is an integral part of the whole. To copy it, to me, is no
better than taking another's energy. It is as much an affront as any
other manner of personal harm.
: Perhaps I am wrong, and being a changeling would mean mastery
: and one-ness with all forms (wow!) or perhaps Fax's wereness has nothing
: to do with their changeling side.
No, I don't think being a changeling would mean a mastery AND
one-ness. It is a method of duplication of a form and not necessarily
a one-ness with the original. A mastery of forms yes, but I don't see a
spiritual or similar connection between the changeling and what it is
copying.
As to Fax's wereness. I don't hold a belief either way, as I
do not know Fax I cannot say one way or another.
: Fax, can I suggest using another term for 'shape-stealer' such as
: changeling? It would perhaps clear things up and prevent mistakes in the
: future.
I would suggest otherwise. Why dicker around. If it is a manner
of taking another's shape then call it what it is. Changelings, to my
limited knowledge, don't have to take a specific being's shape, by touch
or any other means. From what I've read, which is limited by my newsfeed,
it is taking another being's shape...shape-stealing.
And personally, if that's what Fax is, I would think there are
those that would like to know. I know I would.
If I'm mistaken in what I've read, please let me know.
--
Logan Hawkwing | I hunt, for it is what I have always done. It is to
<je...@nacs.net> | take the weak so that the strong survive. To take
I, as always | the sick, that the race prospers in health. It is
speak for, myself | nature's way, the truth, can I ignore the truth.
--
Safari Denvarion Whitelion
Rowsby T-Wolf (csri...@city-net.com) wrote:
(a lot of really good stuff clawed)
A-friggen-men
Safari
--
Safari Denvarion Whitelion
People are like a box of chocholates,
you need to stick your finger in the bottom of each one
to find the cherry cordial.
James Harrion III
Rowsby T-Wolf (csri...@city-net.com) wrote:
: JRuppel685 wrote:
:
: *ROWSBY SAVAGES TEXT!*
Probably the closest you're ever going to get.
:
: > 2) Is interacting with Fax dangerous? This is the $64,000 question.
: > Obviously, if this is true, wisdom dictates that one should avoid Fax.
:
: Please don't add to this situation by making things more volitile than they
: need to
: be.
Translation: Please ignore the sharp object being inserted between buttocks.
Fax is fine.
That's your opinion.
He lives in FRANCE. HOW on earth could he hurt you? Put a
: HEX on
: you? *rolls eyes in head* Please...
Well, we are talking about magick, aren't we?
Unless, of course, you believe yourself to be an authority on the subject.
:
: > Even though these questions need to be answered, none of us here really
: > had any answers to these questions.
:
: I take it you never spoke to the source of it all: Fax himself. The answers
: can only
: be found in one place and I can tell you didn't look there... :(
It's patently obvious to me that he read what Fax actually said himself
without the slightest amount of prompting and drew a conclusion in the log
that I posted at the beginning of this thread.
: > Anyway, I started talking to him about werewolves and shapeshifting in
: > general, which turned out to be the most entertaining thing at the con. I
: > got around to asking him if he's heard about Shapestealers. To my
: > surprise, he had. The two pieces of information I got out of him were:
: >
: > 1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
:
: Yes, read DUNE, and you'll see the word there too.
Your point being?
It has to do with physical
: shifting, a learned way to mimic the shapes of other beings. There is nothing
: specifically evil about it any more than being a WEREWOLF! Sheesh...
Did Fax or did Fax not say that he learned it through "black magick" though?
: > 2) They are big trouble and I should avoid them at ALL costs.
:
: Why? Lets get some details, since you're ruining somone's Internet life
: here...
Let's try thinking this through using our brains, instead of large steaming
chunks of tolerance.
If Fax actually was a shapestealer, would you want someone running around
looking just like you potentially using your form. Yes, I know he's in France
(or so he's said so far) but if he is capable of magick, isn't it possible
he could also 'shapesteal' in other places too?
If Fax wasn't a shapestealer, why would you want a liar here?
:
: > Based on all of this I've drawn my own opinions about Fax:
:
: OPINION is the key word here... You have not spoken to FAX yourself, and just
: because
: you talked to someone who had NOTHING to do with the misunderstandings on IRC
: in the
: first place, you decide to take off on a mission to sway fellow weres here to
: shun
: him. *low growl*
Fuck off. He SAID he had an opinion, and he drew them himself.
Is there some reason why this is such a crime to you?
: IMHO, this is VERY is very whelpish and irrisponsible thing to have done...
: Especially for a newcommer... I understand you loyalty to the pack, but
: you've
: created more problems than solved by not thinking about the effects of your
: post.
HOW DARE YOU INSULT HIM FOR BEING A NEWCOMER!!!
Pup, I've been here far longer than you. And as far as I'm concerned,
he's far more welcome here right now than you ever will be.
: > 1) Fax used Black Magick to become a Shapestealer (hey, he admitted it).
:
: So? As long as he does not harm anyone or anything, I really don't care. His
: belief
: system is his realm, not ours. Many AHWWers do rituals, and some people would
: call it
: black magic, simply because it differs from THEIR belief system.
Your last statement is very true. There are several problems with this
however:
1) Typically 'black magick' is used as a pejorative label by other groups,
such as fundamentalist Christians, certain groups of neopagans, so on, to
refer to magick that they think is harmful. In other words, it's a label
applied to someone else's deeds by an external agency to defame them.
Fax is using this label to apply to what he did. Again without any prompting.
Nobody asked him "Did you learn to shapesteal through black magick", which
would have been a loaded question.
Fax volunteered to say "I was given everything through black magick."
2) Does anyone besides me feel _just a little bit_ like all of this is being
dumped on our laps as far as the issue of "forgiving Fax" is concerned?
As if just by that simple act, everything that Fax said that he did (again
without prompting) can just be erased? And of course, if he slips
occasionally, hey-we'll just forgive him again. And again.
Right?
I'm sorry, but if I wanted that kind of abuse I would've remained a
Christian. After all, that is where this kind of idea comes from, isn't it?
3) Part of the definition of black magick, as I believe Fax was using it
and was implied through his own statements, is that it in fact hurts people
and has done so in the past.
Is there some reason why I should trust someone who has done this?
:
: I don't know about you, but I'm here to learn more about being were, and try
: to make
: some friends as I go thru life as best I can, at the time I do it--not to
: attack,
: defame or cause harm to those who are suspected of being somehow "different".
:
: Isn't that why *WE* are all here now? Our differences should be the GLUE that
: holds
: us together, not used as an excuse to use the crutches of fear and ignorance!
So, in effect, if he doesn't like Fax he is just expected to remain silent.
I always thought that the glue that held us together was mutual respect
(something that I see none of in your post btw as opposed to condescension
and pontification), and an understanding that we, ultimately, have choice
in who we choose associate with or otherwise. As opposed to a romaticized,
transcendent "love" or "peace", implying that certain individuals should
just hold their tongues while others run roughshod over what and who they
care about. So if he decides to be wary of Fax, and explains why, that's
his call.
Just as I'll understand if you never speak to me again after this post.
: This whole things smells utterly HUMAN to me! :(
You would know about that, wouldn't you?
I always thought that forcing individuals to pretend they like each other and
agree was a trait of human societies, not animal ones.
:
: > 2) If he is still a Shapestealer, I'm going to assume that my friend is
: > right, and that there is no mistranslation.
:
: You make friends quickly. And seem willing to make enemies of somone you've
: not
: spoken with even quicker... :( How tragically sad.
Please sign here for your Reality Check:
Some individuals can be pretty easy to assess at times. I'm not saying that
Fax is one of them, just that this is true.
:
: > 3) Even if he is no longer a Shapestealer, even if he no longer uses Black
: > Magick, there is this:
: >
: > The trouble with Black Magick is that even after you stop using it, it
: > does not necessarily stop using you. I believe that because of his
: > practices, he has become tainted.
:
: What you BELIEVE is based on a lot of superstition, no hard facts, and a guy
: you just
: met who wasn't involved and answered your (most likely) biased questions as
: best he
: could.
What he believes actually doesn't sound that different from the three-fold
law, or other, similar doctrines. Personally, I'm not sure if I believe it
myself, but he certainly has the right to say it.
You mean to tell me that you've never gotten an opinions from people outside
of a situation? After all, sometimes that's the only way to get a reasonably
objective opinion since people on both sides (such as right now) may be
quite subjective.
And just what are you considering superstitions, and have you examined your
own beliefs so carefully that you can say that they are without superstitions
themselves?
: *Rowsby twitches an ear as he hears the other wolf's credibility crash to the
: ground*
Do you intend to flame everyone who dislikes Fax, out of curiosity?
: > He may mean well, and not wish to harm
: > anyone, but he'll end up corrupting anyone he comes in contact with,
: > becuase of the nasties that are still attracted to him.
:
: So your saying that he can never again gain the good graces our presence,
: simply
: because his purported past actions will always linger with him? Even if he
: dosen't
: practice the arcane arts anymore?
Did you actually read the log I posted of what Fax actually said?
Why _should_ I take his word?
I won't speak for the were who you are slandering.
:
: Can you sit there, reading this--not feel some remorse within you for posting
: such a
: heartlessly cruel, totally destructive and unfeeling statement? And not even
: consider
: the impact of your words on FAX or his friends?
Cut the guilt crap. It has nothing to do with being an animal.
:
: *GNASH! SNARL!*
:
: > In short, I'm not touching him with a ten foot pole. My advice to you is
: > to use the same amount of caution.
:
: I smell fear.
You really can't handle the concept that one were might not like whatever
or whoever crawls most recently into the clearing and clamors for
acceptance, can you?
It just makes your mind shut down.
I smell ignorance. I smell youthful, unthinking folly.
: Combined, the
: stink is quite unbearable... *SNORT!*
I smell pure, unadulterated bullshit.
I believe it's yours...
:
: > I know that I'm new here, and I'm effectively baring my throat to you
: > (*rolls over*). And you may end up tearing it out, and no longer speak to
: > me.
:
: *Rowsby sniffs the funny smelling wolf and then trots off a short distance
: away*
I think he smells fine. Are you sure you haven't been rolling around in
something?
: If you can see the path you've taken, and have the courage to seek
: enlightenment, then
: I can one day call you friend. :)
If enlightenment would turn me into as much of a snot as you've behaved in
this post, then I want no part of it.
I'd rather be what I am than enlightened any day, thank you.
: > But I don't care if you do! I just don't want to see any of you get
: > hurt. Please, for your sakes, take care!
:
: I understand your protective instincts, but they are misguided. Open your
: heart to
: the truth you hiding inside you--that this post of yours has quite probably
: caused
: more pain than FAX could ever do to any packemember. :(
And yet again, thanks to responses like yours, Rowsby, the lowest common
denominator on alt.horror.werewolves shrinks...
:
: And when you tire from being so foul-smelling, come talk to me.
A wolf within? I doubt it.
Julie Heckman
Rowsby T-Wolf (csri...@city-net.com) wrote:
<slash>
>: > 1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
>:
>: Yes, read DUNE, and you'll see the word there too.
So? Werewolves are portrayed in the X-Files, does that mean they're
not real?
>: OPINION is the key word here... You have not spoken to FAX yourself, and just
>: because
>: you talked to someone who had NOTHING to do with the misunderstandings on IRC
>: in the
>: first place, you decide to take off on a mission to sway fellow weres here to
>: shun
>: him. *low growl*
And what you posted is just OPINION. It's no more valuable than what
he posted, so I don't know where you get off telling him what he's
thinking/feeling is wrong. He's not flaming Fax, he's just trying to
get others to think about what he said, and offering a few opinions of
his own. So get the hell off of his back, and stop making him feel
like an idiot.
>: IMHO, this is VERY is very whelpish and irrisponsible thing to have done...
>: Especially for a newcommer... I understand you loyalty to the pack, but
>: you've
>: created more problems than solved by not thinking about the effects of your
>: post.
And in MY opinion what he posted was perfectly fine. He had what he
felt was good information that he wanted to share with the group, and
using Fax's own words (as posted here), told us what conclusions he
drew. If you're so insecure that you can't bear any dissenting
opinion, maybe you shouldn't read.
>: Isn't that why *WE* are all here now? Our differences should be the GLUE that
>: holds
>: us together, not used as an excuse to use the crutches of fear and ignorance!
What you see as fear and ignorance some of us see as concern and an
honest attempt to learn more. Can it be that you're projecting,
perhaps? If he's got an honest concern about Fax (and he's not the
only one, apparently), then he should be able to voice it, not open
himself up to be flamed by a wolf who (as you may have the best of
intentions) treats him like a piece of cowardly, immature,
irresponsible shit.
>: This whole things smells utterly HUMAN to me! :(
So the hell WHAT? We're all human here, let's face it. 90% of the
time our human side predominates over the were side or we wouldn't be
on the computer, now, would we? And if you're trying to insult humans
by saying they're cowardly and ignorant, then you insult yourself.
>: What you BELIEVE is based on a lot of superstition, no hard facts, and a guy
>: you just
>: met who wasn't involved and answered your (most likely) biased questions as
>: best he
>: could.
So, now he can't post what he believes without being flamed?
>: So your saying that he can never again gain the good graces our presence,
>: simply
>: because his purported past actions will always linger with him? Even if he
>: dosen't
>: practice the arcane arts anymore?
Trusting Fax is your conscious decision. Some of the pack are making
a different decision. That is their perogative.
>: I smell fear.
Well, *I* smell cruelty, the savaging of a pup who, perhaps, has not
yet learned to defend himself. Fear is, at least, an *honest*
emotion.
>: I smell ignorance. I smell youthful, unthinking folly.
>: Combined, the
>: stink is quite unbearable... *SNORT!*
Addressed above. Make sure you stay downwind.
>: > I know that I'm new here, and I'm effectively baring my throat to you
>: > (*rolls over*). And you may end up tearing it out, and no longer speak to
>: > me.
>:
>: *Rowsby sniffs the funny smelling wolf and then trots off a short distance
>: away*
That is both cruel and hypocritical. You would roll for someone like
Fax, but an honest, concerned pup comes into the clearing, and he gets
savaged. There's nothing wrong with *his* scent.
>: If you can see the path you've taken, and have the courage to seek
>: enlightenment, then
>: I can one day call you friend. :)
Let's all be condescending here, shall we? Okay, I'm so sorry that you
don't seem enlightened enough to tell when someone is concerned, or
wise enough to help them along a right path without tearing their
throat out in the process. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it
eventually.
If you're going to flame nice, well-meaning wolves, then you'd better
expect to receive some in turn. What you posted was the height of
insult and cruelty toward someone who is new to the group and new to
being a were. There was nothing wrong with his post and the concern
and information that he put forth. If you're so afraid that weres
might read his post and, without thinking for themselves, form an
opinion against Fax, then you must think that we're all WereSheep.
(My apologies to all weresheep.) Some of us can think for ourselves,
and appreciate the information and concern that he displayed for the
pack. He opened himself up to try to help, and you savaged him for
it.
Erin Darknight
-----
"If anything I wrote offended you, I'm sorry. It was not
my intent, merely an added bonus."
*email: er...@cts.com
*Web: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/e/erin
*Copyright Julie Heckman, 1996. Reproduction or redistribution
of the above on the Microsoft Network is strictly prohibited.
Wyvern Enterprises
Enough is enough!!!
I don't want to hear anymore petty arguments.
The fact that it's gone on so long, over such lame stuff is more than a
little worrisome.
There are far more important things to be concerned about - rumor and
offhand remarks on IRC don't tell us a thing about someone, other than
maybe some are more gulliable than others.
I'm constantly shaking my head in wonder at the irony of werefolks being
afraid of others.
Flenser
Reemul
Rowsby T-Wolf (csri...@city-net.com) wrote:
>JRuppel685 wrote:
>*ROWSBY SAVAGES TEXT!*
>> 2) Is interacting with Fax dangerous? This is the $64,000 question.
>> Obviously, if this is true, wisdom dictates that one should avoid Fax.
>Please don't add to this situation by making things more volitile than
>they
>need to
>be. Fax is fine. He lives in FRANCE. HOW on earth could he hurt you?
>Put a
>HEX on
>you? *rolls eyes in head* Please...
first off, jsut cause you dont believe in the possible powers of the mind,
dont come down on others fo rtheir belief in these powers. you talk later
of tolerance, but i see very little here on your part. perhaps those who
belive in these possible powers, have good reason to fear him?
>> Even though these questions need to be answered, none of us here
really
>> had any answers to these questions.
>I take it you never spoke to the source of it all: Fax himself. The
>answers
>can only
>be found in one place and I can tell you didn't look there... :(
>> ...Until now.
>*growl*
oh, and you have spoken to FAx yourself? you have decided based on
speaking to him that everything that Jeff has said is false?
>*Met Self Professed WereWolf Scholar at a CON*
>>
>>
>> 1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
>Yes, read DUNE, and you'll see the word there too. It has to do with
>physical
>shifting, a learned way to mimic the shapes of other beings. There is
>nothing
>specifically evil about it any more than being a WEREWOLF! Sheesh...
ok, have you ever read Dune? it's Face Dancers. and it has to do with
taking the appearance of others in their duty as assasins, and spies.
>> 2) They are big trouble and I should avoid them at ALL costs.
>Why? Lets get some details, since you're ruining somone's Internet life
>here...
> Based on all of this I've drawn my own opinions about Fax:
>OPINION is the key word here... You have not spoken to FAX yourself, and
>just >because
>you talked to someone who had NOTHING to do with the misunderstandings on
>IRC >in the
>first place, you decide to take off on a mission to sway fellow weres
>here to >shun>him. *low growl*
have you spoken to Fax? you are basing your opinions on the whole deal on
hearsay, jsut as Jeff is basing his fears on myths and legends. yet, in
this little flame of yours, you are right, and Jeff is wrong? who are you
that you know more abotu shapestealers tahn this person that Jeff talked
to? who are you to try to sway Jeff from holdign his own opinions on a
subject? is this alt.horror.werewolf.rowsby?
>> 1) Fax used Black Magick to become a Shapestealer (hey, he admitted
>it).
>So? As long as he does not harm anyone or anything, I really don't care.
>His >belief
>system is his realm, not ours. Many AHWWers do rituals, and some people
>would >call it
>black magic, simply because it differs from THEIR belief system.
Fax himself said taht he had practice Black Magick, (i was on irc to hear
this), and that he became a shapestealer through black magick, and that he
had done evil.
>I don't know about you, but I'm here to learn more about being were, and
>try >to make
>some friends as I go thru life as best I can, at the time I do it--not to
>attack,
>defame or cause harm to those who are suspected of being somehow
>"different".
>Isn't that why *WE* are all here now? Our differences should be the GLUE
>that >holds
>us together, not used as an excuse to use the crutches of fear and
>ignorance!
>This whole things smells utterly HUMAN to me! :(
so you are the font of knowledge and experience about why we are all here,
and how we should all conduct ourselves as we pursue whatever we are here
to find or accomplish?
>> 2) If he is still a Shapestealer, I'm going to assume that my friend is
>> right, and that there is no mistranslation.
>You make friends quickly. And seem willing to make enemies of somone
>you've >not
>spoken with even quicker... :( How tragically sad.
>> 3) Even if he is no longer a Shapestealer, even if he no longer uses
>>Black
>> Magick, there is this:
>>
>> The trouble with Black Magick is that even after you stop using it, it
>> does not necessarily stop using you. I believe that because of his
>> practices, he has become tainted.
>What you BELIEVE is based on a lot of superstition, no hard facts, and a
>guy >you just
>met who wasn't involved and answered your (most likely) biased questions
>as >best he>could.
>*Rowsby twitches an ear as he hears the other wolf's credibility crash to
>the >ground*
what you say about this whole thread is based on hearsay. you assume that
Fax poses no threat cause he hasn't threatened you, or you have no
knowledge about myths about shapestealers. i have heard Fax speak on this
subject. Jeff has spoken to one who claims knowledge about these things.
what have you done to enlighten yourself in this matter? there is no
manual on these matters. any who say they know all is a liar, imho. all we
have to go on is experience and belief. but i guess everyone elses belief
doesnt count unless it is Rowsby's belief.
>> He may mean well, and not wish to harm
>> anyone, but he'll end up corrupting anyone he comes in contact with,
>> becuase of the nasties that are still attracted to him.
>So your saying that he can never again gain the good graces our presence,
>simply
>because his purported past actions will always linger with him? Even if
>he >dosen't
>practice the arcane arts anymore?
>Can you sit there, reading this--not feel some remorse within you for
>posting >such a
>heartlessly cruel, totally destructive and unfeeling statement? And not
>even >consider
>the impact of your words on FAX or his friends?
oh, so we're supposed to be fluffybunnies? no bad feels around here? i see
a lot of feeling in Jeffs post. he is worried, and in my mind, for good
reason. what is the impact of his words? have you spoken to Fax, or asked
his freinds? or are you just assuming taht Jeffs post will totally
destroy Fax?
>> In short, I'm not touching him with a ten foot pole. My advice to you
>>is
>> to use the same amount of caution.
>I smell fear. I smell ignorance. I smell youthful, unthinking folly.
>Combined, the
>stink is quite unbearable... *SNORT!*
>> I know that I'm new here, and I'm effectively baring my throat to you
>> (*rolls over*). And you may end up tearing it out, and no longer speak
>> to
>> me.
>*Rowsby sniffs the funny smelling wolf and then trots off a short
>distance
>away*
>If you can see the path you've taken, and have the courage to seek
>enlightenment, then
>I can one day call you friend. :)
aha, so now you are the font of knowledge on the path to enlightenment?
you personally know all there is about shapestealers, and how best to
guidethose here on the path to Enlightnment?
>I understand your protective instincts, but they are misguided. Open
>your >heart to
>the truth you hiding inside you--that this post of yours has quite
>probably >caused
>more pain than FAX could ever do to any packemember. :(
>And when you tire from being so foul-smelling, come talk to me.
>Take care,
>Rowsby
are you here to fight Fax's battle for him? he can post, he has done it
before. are we not able to have opinions about him without clearing them
through you first? can we not seek enlightenment via some other means than
one that is acceptable to you?
you attack Jeff for holding an opinion based on legends and a friends
opinion. you assume Fax is harmless. you assume Jeff is wrong in his
opinion.
your attack shows me that we walk 2 different paths. and let me tell you,
i dont care if you think i smell. i'm not here for some popularity
contest.i'm not going to hold back cause i -might- hurt someones feelings.
THAT to me smacks of skin thinking. i am Were, and if i see a problem, i
say so.
--Reemul
Rowsby T-Wolf
Julie Heckman wrote:
Lots of overly negative stuff that just isn't worth responding to... *big sigh*
I do however, admire your strong motherly instinct to protect a newcommer. :)
I'm sorry you think I went too far in trying to get some sense into Jeff/Unity, so he
could see the path he was taking. Sometimes you need a firm but helping paw...
But I think Unity can stand on his own four feet, thank you. :) And I think he has
done a lot of growing very quickly. :)
I'm quite proud of him.
I hope you understand that my sincere intentions were to help put an end to this Fax
nonsense. I fear that Fax may be alone now, afraid how he'll be treated or viewed by
us, since some of you have been less than kind to him. :( And over what? Gossip.
There are not that many weres in France. Can't you imagine his dispair?
I think thats a terrible way to treat new weres. I think its terrible that you
support this witch hunt, because its clear that you're not interested in stopping it.
What bothers me the most is, you TOLD ME IN E-MAIL that AFTER reading Jeff's wonderful
apology letter, you went ahead and posted this rant of yours ANYWAYS! :(
Why? Just to satisfy yourself? I'm afraid I don't understand your intentions.
Apparently, you DIDN'T GET IT that things were resolved between he and I.
It was his decision to change, just as its your decision to remain unchanged.
He displayed more courage, more heartfelt insight and introspection in that post of
his, than I've ever seen ANYONE do for years. It was breathtaking! And you wish to
demean it, tear it down, devalue, and destroy his personal triumph over darkenss?
Why? Let him have his enlightement, I say.
Thanks for recklessly and purposely making things worse. (Rowsby claps)
I hope you feel better now that you got that out of your system, and will hopefully
come to your senses soon. :)
Julie Heckman
jrupp...@aol.com (JRuppel685) wrote:
>2) Is interacting with Fax dangerous? This is the $64,000 question.
>Obviously, if this is true, wisdom dictates that one should avoid Fax.
You're right, IF Fax is dangerous, then perhaps he SHOULD be avoided.
I've read this thread, and I haven't seen anything yet to say that Fax
is dangerous. Some people think he's annoying, but not dangerous.
Having never spoken to Fax on IRC or here, I can't judge one way or
the other, and probably never will.
>Anyway, I started talking to him about werewolves and shapeshifting in
>general, which turned out to be the most entertaining thing at the con. I
>got around to asking him if he's heard about Shapestealers. To my
>surprise, he had. The two pieces of information I got out of him were:
>
>1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
>
>2) They are big trouble and I should avoid them at ALL costs.
Where did he get this information? I'm not saying that he's right or
wrong; I don't know enough about Shapestealers to say one way or the
other. I'm just wondering where he got this information, to see if
it's valid or not.
>The trouble with Black Magick is that even after you stop using it, it
>does not necessarily stop using you. I believe that because of his
>practices, he has become tainted. He may mean well, and not wish to harm
>anyone, but he'll end up corrupting anyone he comes in contact with,
>becuase of the nasties that are still attracted to him.
(Disclaimer: All this is MY belief, my opinion.)
That might be true, but don't confuse Black Magick with evil magick.
evil magick harms, Black Magick is negative, and sometimes negative
magick can be used to good effect. Is this the case with Fax? I don't
know. I'd have to have a lot more questions answered before I assume
that Fax is tainted. If he has done bad things in the past (as people
have said he has said he has--how's that for heresay? :) ) then he
might have some bad karma coming around. But maybe he's already dealt
with it, or has reconciled with it somehow. If he hasn't done
anything bad in the past, then no one has anything to worry about.
>In short, I'm not touching him with a ten foot pole. My advice to you is
>to use the same amount of caution.
Who you choose to be friends with is your own choice, and no one can
make it for you. Before you judge Fax, though, make sure that all
your information is correct. Don't depend on third-hand rumor, I
would suggest that if you want to make a decision about Fax, to find
out for yourself. Ask him about the rumors, and decide for yourself
whether he should be trusted.
>I know that I'm new here, and I'm effectively baring my throat to you
>(*rolls over*). And you may end up tearing it out, and no longer speak to
>me. But I don't care if you do! I just don't want to see any of you get
>hurt. Please, for your sakes, take care!
<nuzzle> You've done well by bringing your fears before the pack, and
by trying to protect the pack. Sometimes it takes a newcomer to show
some of the packmembers what loyalty is.
Julie Heckman
Rowsby T-Wolf <csri...@city-net.com> wrote:
>I'm sorry you think I went too far in trying to get some sense into Jeff/Unity, so he
>could see the path he was taking. Sometimes you need a firm but helping paw...
Firm is one thing, insulting and condescending is quite another. And
in a forum where all our ideas and beliefs should be shared
respectfully, your post was quite distasteful. I'm sorry that you
think that my post was overly negative; but the insult you showed to a
newcomer was the height of negativity. You must expect the same in
return.
>I hope you understand that my sincere intentions were to help put an end to this Fax
>nonsense. I fear that Fax may be alone now, afraid how he'll be treated or viewed by
>us, since some of you have been less than kind to him. :( And over what? Gossip.
I've said nothing in this whole thread about judging Fax. In fact, my
first post about the subject was in encouraging Jeff to make up his
own mind about Fax WITHOUT the use of gossip or heresay. To talk to
Fax and decide for himself. A lot of weres here have spoken to Fax,
and they've posted their disagreements. Jeff should have the same
opportunity to decide for himself, whether or not he's a newcomer.
>I think thats a terrible way to treat new weres. I think its terrible that you
>support this witch hunt, because its clear that you're not interested in stopping it.
What I'm interested in stopping is the terrible treatment some weres
seem to give to newcomers who are only interested in making a space
for themselves by the fire, and having their opinions and beliefs
heard.
As far as the "Fax Witch Hunt" goes, I'm not so arrogant as to believe
that I can tell grown adults who they may and may not be friends with.
If some people here have taken exception to what Fax has told them in
IRC, I'm not going to try to force them to kiss and make up. This is
a public forum, and you're not the moderator. By posting your flame,
you just ensured the continuance of the thread. And for someone so
interested in pack unity, that's surprising.
>What bothers me the most is, you TOLD ME IN E-MAIL that AFTER reading Jeff's wonderful
>apology letter, you went ahead and posted this rant of yours ANYWAYS! :(
>Why? Just to satisfy yourself? I'm afraid I don't understand your intentions.
My intentions were to let Jeff feel welcome, not thought of as the
"funny-smelling wolf" as you called him, because you disagreed with
some of his opinions and conclusions. I thought your treatment of him
was reprehensible, and your flame would only beget more problems.
>Why? Let him have his enlightement, I say.
Enlightenment should come on its own, not as the result of browbeating
and insulting a newcomer. I have total trust in Jeff as far as making
the right decision for himself. I don't have to insult him into
choosing my way of thinking.
Jeff, if you made your decision about Fax despite the beating you
took, then I applaud you. I don't think you needed to be exposed to
the beating in the first place.
>Thanks for recklessly and purposely making things worse. (Rowsby claps)
And I thank you for the same. If your insults have good intentions
behind them, then I have no more right to flame you for them than you
did to flame Jeff, who was filled with good intentions as well.
>I hope you feel better now that you got that out of your system, and will hopefully
>come to your senses soon. :)
What makes you think I haven't come to my senses? Just because I don't
agree with you? Oh, then I must be insane.
For someone who waves "Pack Unity" around like a flag, you certainly
don't seem mature enough to nurture that unity, rather than turning
people off by insults and arrogance. You get back the respect that
you show others, and by showing none to Jeff you've proven that you
deserve none yourself.
KatmanDu
ez04...@chip.ucdavis.edu (James Harrion III) wrote:
>Rowsby T-Wolf (csri...@city-net.com) wrote:
>: JRuppel685 wrote:
...and many others wrote things ad nauseum...
Jeezus fucking kee-rist. How many times do we go through this? When
does a thread go beyond usefulness and value and denigrate into whiny
name-calling? What's the FUCKING point?
In 15 days I have the distinct joy of dealing with the petty bickering
and hate of near 100 different schools of thought, upbringing, and
culture (*snorts* at that concept). I had hoped AHWW would provide me
some respite from the rest of the world as a clear pool where I could
rest, secure that hey, maybe there are folks who can treat each other
with respect and, yes, TOLERANCE (how did that get to be such a dirty
word? When did it suddenly go from respect for others' and their views
without being steamrollered by same to somehow meaning rolling over
for fear of offending?)... a group with the maturity to know what's
self-serving and what's necessary, but still young enough to have fun.
Instead, it looks like all I'll get to read is the same bickering and
silly backstabbing that I get to see in real life each and every
fucking day. Wonderful.
What, am I saying we should all be sweetness and light and this should
be a big tea party where we paste insincere smiles on our faces while
we pour another cup for the person we can't stand? Shit no. I'm not
like that and neither is anyone here. That, hopefully, is reserved for
the realm of office politics, another game I have to play all to often
in real life. Neither, though, should we be throwing the goddamn tea
pot at him just before we disembowel and then piss on the remains.
Do I have a point with all this? Of course not.
>HOW DARE YOU INSULT HIM FOR BEING A NEWCOMER!!!
>Pup, I've been here far longer than you. And as far as I'm concerned,
>he's far more welcome here right now than you ever will be.
Let's not get into the "my dick's bigger than yours" catagory either.
What's the fucking point? There's always someone who's been here
longer who may not be worth a pint of piss and someone who's been here
one day and has more to offer than everyone else combined.
Really fucking annoyed and checking out until after the
olympics...................
--
katm...@uga.cc.uga.edu * katm...@negia.net * ewi...@access.cosmic.uga.edu
Theriomorph at large * http://www.negia.net/~katmandu * Certified annoying git
"Just say a word and the boys will be right there, with claws at your
back to send a chill through the night air. Is it so frightening to have
me at your shoulder? Thunder and lightning couldn't be bolder. I'll
write on your tombstone 'I thank you for dinner'. This game that we
animals play is a winner." -Ian Anderson / Jethro Tull
Karl Gallagher
In article <4r54l6$g...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, JRuppel685
<jrupp...@aol.com> writes
>Jeff, the newly awakened werewolf, whimpers in dismay.
>
>
>When I first started lurking about the NG, I did notice this big to-do
>about Fax. I was curious about this, so I waited and watched what
>knowledge about Fax would be unearthed. So far, all that has really been
>uncovered is this:
>
>1) Fax was a Shapestealer, and is now a Werewolf.
>
>2) Fax has used dark magick to become a Shapestealer.
>
>The questions that haven't been answered (but truly need to be) are these:
>
>1) What is a Shapestealer? One rumor is that a Shapestealer is a
>mistranslation, and he is a Changeling. Frankly, I don't know what a
>Changeling really is, either.
A changeling is a fairy baby that is secretly swapped for a mortal baby.
It has nothing to do with changing shape.
>
>2) Is interacting with Fax dangerous? This is the $64,000 question.
>Obviously, if this is true, wisdom dictates that one should avoid Fax.
>
>Even though these questions need to be answered, none of us here really
>had any answers to these questions.
>
>...Until now.
>
>This weekend, I went to a local convention, where I met an old
>acquaintance of mine. He is most definitely a werewolf (he's only had
>Mental Shifts, though). He has also done EXTENSIVE historical research on
>Shifterism. I mean, he's checked out Native American Shamanism back and
>front. He's acquired texts from 16th century Europe. He's even read oldest
>known written copy of Beowulf. When I've talked to him, he was about to
>learn Norse runes, so he research Werewolves in the times before
>Christianity existed in Europe!
>
>Anyway, I started talking to him about werewolves and shapeshifting in
>general, which turned out to be the most entertaining thing at the con. I
>got around to asking him if he's heard about Shapestealers. To my
>surprise, he had. The two pieces of information I got out of him were:
>
>1) Shapestealers are also known as Flesh Dancers.
>
>2) They are big trouble and I should avoid them at ALL costs.
>
>
>Based on all of this I've drawn my own opinions about Fax:
>
>1) Fax used Black Magick to become a Shapestealer (hey, he admitted it).
>
>2) If he is still a Shapestealer, I'm going to assume that my friend is
>right, and that there is no mistranslation.
>
>3) Even if he is no longer a Shapestealer, even if he no longer uses Black
>Magick, there is this:
>
>The trouble with Black Magick is that even after you stop using it, it
>does not necessarily stop using you. I believe that because of his
>practices, he has become tainted. He may mean well, and not wish to harm
>anyone, but he'll end up corrupting anyone he comes in contact with,
>becuase of the nasties that are still attracted to him.
>
>In short, I'm not touching him with a ten foot pole. My advice to you is
>to use the same amount of caution.
>
>I know that I'm new here, and I'm effectively baring my throat to you
>(*rolls over*). And you may end up tearing it out, and no longer speak to
>me. But I don't care if you do! I just don't want to see any of you get
>hurt. Please, for your sakes, take care!
>
>Jeff
--
Karl Gallagher
Coyote Osborne
In article <4r5pg2$9...@ionews.ionet.net>, nn...@ionet.net (The Steel Wolf)
wrote:
> I've heard shapestealers referred to as doppelgangers before as well.
> I'm not sure about the origin, but from the etymology of
> "doppelganger", I'd be inclined to look for German mythological roots.
Actually, I've heard the term "shapestealer" used in native american
stuff, but infrequently. About as often as I have heard the term "Raven
Mocker" or "Big Head".
Also, I seem to vaguely recall (I could be wrong) the term also being used
in conjunction with faery stuff.
Coyote
--
---
Coyote Osborne;1085 NE 179 Terrace;North Miami Beach, FL 33162
New ISP... new addresses forthcoming...
Coyote Osborne
> I do not see how it could. I've always seen a changeling as one
> who can other forms(within limits). I wouldn't expect a changeling to
> need to take the form of a specific person or were. Taking the form of
> another person is as much vampiric as taking their energies, whether the
> 'victim' consents to it or not.
Ummm... I kind of think that if you copy something, that is not "vampiric".
Taking something from someone, so that they do not have it anymore is.
And frankly, what do you think you do when you eat? You take the life from
soemthing else to feed your own. Everything does. Though you could make
the argument that plants are merely converting solar energy...
> : Fax, can I suggest using another term for 'shape-stealer' such as
> : changeling? It would perhaps clear things up and prevent mistakes in the
> : future.
>
>
> I would suggest otherwise. Why dicker around. If it is a manner
> of taking another's shape then call it what it is. Changelings, to my
> limited knowledge, don't have to take a specific being's shape, by touch
> or any other means
Unless the fairies tell you themselves what a changeliong is, I'd doubt
the story. Hell if they DID tell you themselves you;d have to doubt it.
Actually, forgive me here, but the only time I've ever seen changeling
used to mean someone or somethign that can take any form they choose is in
modern fantasy fiction.
The old meaning of the word as little a ways back as the last century for
changeling was this:
According to legend, sometimes teh fairies would steal a baby from humans.
They would leave somethign in place of the child they had stolen that
looked like the baby but was not. usually this false child was a nuisance
of some kind. I recall a couple stories where the changeling child would
never grow up... so the hapless parents would be stuck with taking care of
an infant indefinitely. Other times teh kid would just eat to much, or
simply be weird and frightening.
It bears note here that even EARLIER than the changelings in these stories
being referred to as changelings, the term meant ANY child that was put in
place of a lost, stolen or deceased infant. Mostly a changeling was a
child that was reared by the parents that was not the child of the mother,
but without the mother realizing it was not her child.
From what I've read, which is limited by my newsfeed,
> it is taking another being's shape...shape-stealing.
> And personally, if that's what Fax is, I would think there are
> those that would like to know. I know I would.
Ya know what? I think I've just realized why I'm getting in on this....
Ever read any stories about Coyote the Trickster?
Coyote is ALWAYS taking other people's shapes. He makes himself look like
all sorts of things in the stories. It isn't stealing. It's copying. It's
a trick It may be fun to think of as stealing, but isn't stealing when you
take something AWAY from someone, as opposed to merely imitating them?
Coyote Osborne
> Of note, my friend made a distinction between black magick and necromancy,
> namely that black magick is bad news, but necromancy is film-at-eleven bad
> news.
Uh oh... here we go about necromancy again... : )
Actually, the confusion about the two terms is commonly thought to stem
from the confusion between the term "Necromancy" which is divination (or
other magicks) associated with the dead, and "Nigromancy" which is a later
term (corrupted latin, improperly used, I think) implying "Black Magick".
I'd say that black magic is the "bad news". Black magick generally means
magick done for the purpose of bringing about harm. Necromancy is merely
magick or divination having to to with death or the dead. My grandfather
is dead and he certainly isn't evil or bad news <grin>
Necromancy is not lighting candles on skulls so that people will drop
dead. That's black magick. Necromancy can likely take forms that could
conceivably be harmful, but black magick by definition is magick intended
for the purpose of doing harm.
Talking to dead people isn't necessarily bad. Protecting a grave isn't either.
> He also warned me that Fax could possibly take advantage of the communal
> Shifting that's about to be attempted, effectively Shapestealing from the
> whole group. If you're trying to participate in this group Shift, stop
> immediately if anything goes wrong (which is good advice anyway).
How? What's he going to do? Shift too? Good for him!
There are some things that simply cannot be stolen. If someone attains a
goal without doing the things that make it worthwhile, that's their
problem, IMHO.
> "Don't worry about the lions you can see, worry about the lions you can't
> see."
I'd rather worry about the lions I can see thanks. I have good eyesight,
and the ones I can see are trouble enough, thanks! <grin>
Follower of the Clawed Albino
Thus spake Coyote Osborne (sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com) to the ether bunnies:
> In article <4r5pg2$9...@ionews.ionet.net>, nn...@ionet.net (The Steel Wolf)
> wrote:
>
> > I've heard shapestealers referred to as doppelgangers before as well.
> > I'm not sure about the origin, but from the etymology of
> > "doppelganger", I'd be inclined to look for German mythological roots.
>
> Actually, I've heard the term "shapestealer" used in native american
> stuff, but infrequently. About as often as I have heard the term "Raven
> Mocker" or "Big Head".
Not heard of shapestealers per se, but I get the general idea. (I've
read a minor shitload of Raven Mocker stories, but then again, I am part
Cherokee and reading mythology whilst researching one's family's roots
could be considered mildly cheating :)
> Also, I seem to vaguely recall (I could be wrong) the term also being used
> in conjunction with faery stuff.
Hadn't heard the term "shapestealer" with faery stuff, but had hard the
term "changeling" (as a faery kid switched with a mundane kid)...hence my
initial confusion of the word "changeling" (I take it the term means
generally "shapeshifter" or "polywere" in other cultures?).
> Coyote
--
-Windigo The Feral (NYAR!) |bleu|
Jihaddi, AHWW Cyberpack Member, Spam-Hunter and unrepentant fan of | () |
2000AD, Poison Elves and Lizzy Borden. ;) PGP Key upon request. | /\ |
Tie on a Blue Ribbon for Net.freedom--learn more at http://www.eff.org.
*Notice: Unsolicited commercial email is subject to archival fee of $200 US
per message--mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.* Rip the system.
Wanderer
> sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote in article
<stygian-1007...@news.miami.mindspring.com>...
(snip)
> The old meaning of the word as little a ways back as the last century
for
> changeling was this:
>
> According to legend, sometimes teh fairies would steal a baby from
humans.
> They would leave somethign in place of the child they had stolen that
> looked like the baby but was not. usually this false child was a
nuisance
> of some kind. I recall a couple stories where the changeling child would
> never grow up... so the hapless parents would be stuck with taking care
of
> an infant indefinitely. Other times teh kid would just eat to much, or
> simply be weird and frightening.
>
> It bears note here that even EARLIER than the changelings in these
stories
> being referred to as changelings, the term meant ANY child that was put
in
> place of a lost, stolen or deceased infant. Mostly a changeling was a
> child that was reared by the parents that was not the child of the
mother,
> but without the mother realizing it was not her child.
(snip)
Well, if you go to the etymology, "changeling" means "small exchange".
(From the anglo-saxon,change coming from the latin (cambien, to exchange
or barter) and ling (-le + -ing, small + small (diminutive form of -ing)))
Basically, a small exchange. (Of course, it also meant someone who was
undecided or feeble-minded, but those definitions died out)
Similarly, there used to be a word, "wolfling", which just meant a small
wolf. (Trust me to know that.:>)
Yours with a howl of triumph,
The literary-challenge-accepting,
Wanderer
wand...@why.net
wand...@whytel.com
Howling Heart
Wanderer wrote:
>
> > sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote in article
> <stygian-1007...@news.miami.mindspring.com>...
> (snip)
> > The old meaning of the word as little a ways back as the last century
> for
> > changeling was this:
> >
> > According to legend, sometimes teh fairies would steal a baby from
> humans.
> > They would leave somethign in place of the child they had stolen that
> > looked like the baby but was not. usually this false child was a
> nuisance
> > of some kind.
> (snip)
> Well, if you go to the etymology, "changeling" means "small exchange".
> (From the anglo-saxon,change coming from the latin (cambien, to exchange
> or barter) and ling (-le + -ing, small + small (diminutive form of -ing)))
> Basically, a small exchange. (Of course, it also meant someone who was
> undecided or feeble-minded, but those definitions died out)
>
> Similarly, there used to be a word, "wolfling", which just meant a small
> wolf. (Trust me to know that.:>)
> Wanderer
Yes, Wanderer, the -ling is a diminutive like wolfling etc.
And change is exchange, barter etc. But the word Changeling in
itself does not mean a small exchange of things, tokens or something like that.
Two roots don't seldom form a new concept or meaning when joined together.
Thus changeling today means a waverer, turncoat or esp. an infant,
substituted for another. And in old times, the switch was usually made by
faeries, vittror, alfars, and other seelie folk, as portrayed by Coyote above.
BTW, though I'm not a great fan of fantasy-literature, if you wan't to read
about a changeling in the Scandinavian style, I can recommend Paul Anderson's
the Broken Sword. For being fantasy both the style and mood is quite "accurate".
(If you see this message posted more than once, it's because I got an error message all the time)
Care & Take Care,
-=HOWLING=-
-=HEART=-
>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<
a.k.a.
Sinclair Andersen,
physically residing in Stockholm, Sweden
but you are always welcome to my
Cyber L@ir at http://www.algonet.se/~edge/wolf
or mail me: ed...@algonet.se
My WERECARD can be found at
http://www.algonet.se/~edge/wolf/werewolf/howl.htm
James Harrion III
Coyote Osborne (sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com) wrote:
: > I do not see how it could. I've always seen a changeling as one
: > who can other forms(within limits). I wouldn't expect a changeling to
: > need to take the form of a specific person or were. Taking the form of
: > another person is as much vampiric as taking their energies, whether the
: > 'victim' consents to it or not.
:
: Ummm... I kind of think that if you copy something, that is not "vampiric".
:
: Taking something from someone, so that they do not have it anymore is.
Is using a forgery to acquire something that should be rightfully someone
else's theft though?
And couldn't this be a somewhat analogous situation?
: Ever read any stories about Coyote the Trickster?
:
: Coyote is ALWAYS taking other people's shapes. He makes himself look like
: all sorts of things in the stories. It isn't stealing. It's copying. It's
: a trick It may be fun to think of as stealing, but isn't stealing when you
: take something AWAY from someone, as opposed to merely imitating them?
Yes, you're right, and in those circumstances I suppose it would depend
to what uses the copy was being put to.
Skeezix88
Far be it from me to offer a literary (or etymological) challenge to one
I've not formally met or delurked to, but by your dissection of
"changeling", would it not then follow that "earthling" derives from
"small earth" as opposed to "one of the earth", the latter of which more
or less supports the idea of "changeling" meaning "one of change"? That's
how I've always perceived it, anyway, though my perception is always
subject to adjustment. I'll have to dig up my own Webster's and go
a-hunting.
Excelsior!
AloneWoof
In article <31E6BD...@algonet.se>, Howling Heart <ed...@algonet.se>
writes:
>Two roots don't seldom form a new concept or meaning when joined
together.
>Thus changeling today means a waverer, turncoat or esp. an infant,
>substituted for another. And in old times, the switch was usually made by
>faeries, vittror, alfars, and other seelie folk, as portrayed by Coyote
>above.
>
>BTW, though I'm not a great fan of fantasy-literature, if you wan't to
read
>about a changeling in the Scandinavian style, I can recommend Paul
Anderson's
>
>the Broken Sword. For being fantasy both the style and mood is quite
>"accurate".
I hate mentioning the GREAT EVIL, but White Wolf does offer a
story-telling module (yeah, read role playing) along the lines of WW:tA or
M:tA called Changling:The Dreaming. (Don't all run out to your favorite
role playing shop at once now!) It deals with the world if Faery in the
Gothic Earth setting. Haven't gotten into it at all, only know that it's
there, if you're at all interested.
Howling down the concrete canyons,
Alone Wolf
//the dream isn't coming through//
//i can't feel for you.....// --Heather Nova
CongRATulations Florida Panthers!
NHL's 1996 Eastern Conference Champions!