Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder

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Jul 22, 2018, 4:10:13 AM7/22/18

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Which is best for dropping the transmission?

Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount?
* Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg
* Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg
* Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg

Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg

Wade Garrett

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Jul 22, 2018, 9:59:25 AM7/22/18

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If you have to ask those questions, the job is above your pay grade...

--
The fastest way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

trader_4

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Jul 22, 2018, 10:27:15 AM7/22/18

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Might also help to specify the make, model, year. When you know that,
there are plenty of resources from Bentley and similar manuals that are
typically available for purchase or at the library, to Youtube vidoes
showing it being done. I'd bet "removing XXXX model YYYY transmission"
would produce a lot of hits from people who have the vehicle and have
done it.

Oren

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Jul 22, 2018, 12:18:12 PM7/22/18

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On Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:10:10 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Which is best for dropping the transmission?
>
>Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount?
>* Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg
>* Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg
>* Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg
>

What is the risk off the tranny falling on you?

>Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
>http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg

The bolts have a torque range. Torque 'em and forget it.

Arlen Holder

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Jul 22, 2018, 2:37:34 PM7/22/18

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On 22 Jul 2018 09:18:06 GMT, Oren wrote:

> What is the risk off the tranny falling on you?
>
>>Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
>>http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg
>
> The bolts have a torque range. Torque 'em and forget it.

I found out that almost nobody uses locktite on transmission bolts.
Flywheel yes. Transmission no.

I still might locktite it though, just because it's hard to get to the
upper 17mm transmission bolts on the bell housing (I had to use a series of
half-inch extensions 30" long with a swivel as the 3/8" extensions just
twisted more than a quarter turn and were useless).

The blue is the locktite I'll buy (I generally never use the stuff but I've
never done a transmission before - but I've done everything else that
people do as I don't think I've been to a mechanic in two decades and my
cars are all that old).
http://www.wdarc.org/Loctite%20Guide.pdf

I was hoping for more advice here than "if you don't know, then you should"
though. Sigh.

Anyway, as for the colors,
Blue is just help it from coming loose where proper torquing does the work.
Red is for permanent install, hard to come off
Green is for use on nuts and bolts that are already installed

This guide to locktite seems useful.
http://www.loctite.com.au/aue/content_data/354580_7128_Do_It_Right_Guide_v5_Approved.pdf

rbowman

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Jul 22, 2018, 5:07:05 PM7/22/18

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On 07/22/2018 12:37 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> Anyway, as for the colors,
> Blue is just help it from coming loose where proper torquing does the work.
> Red is for permanent install, hard to come off
> Green is for use on nuts and bolts that are already installed

If you're going to use any, blue is the way to go or the next time you
remove the transmission you'll be in there with a torch heating up the
bolts to soften the red.

I have never used LocTite on transmission, bellhousing, or pressure
plate fasteners.

Terry Coombs

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Jul 22, 2018, 5:20:10 PM7/22/18

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But damn sure on the nut that holds the compensator sprocket to the
crankshaft on your Harley ...

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety .
Get off my lawn !

Arlen Holder

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Jul 22, 2018, 7:01:21 PM7/22/18

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On 22 Jul 2018 14:20:55 GMT, Terry Coombs wrote:

>> I have never used LocTite on transmission, bellhousing, or pressure
>> plate fasteners.
>
> But damn sure on the nut that holds the compensator sprocket to the
> crankshaft on your Harley ...

Thanks for the locktite advice, where I never use it and I've done a decent
amount of work (cooling systems, alternators, belts, tensioners, etc.)
where I never before ran into bolts that needed 30 inches of extension to
get to, so I'll locktite blue them sparingly.

I always buy the tools I need, where right now, I can't think of the tool
that I need, but whatever it is, I need it.

How on earth do you get the transmission to back away from the engine?
I can't budge the thing! It's in neutral. I'm positive all the bolts are
off. I'm only somewhat positive that it's level because you can't really
easily tell, but it's close enough as I can wiggle it back and forth. If
it's hanging up on something, I don't see what. I just can't get any
rearward force on that transmission. What tool does that?

Here are some pictures showing that it seems to be hanging up on the upper
dowel pin, where the lower dowel pin is already out.

This is the driver side lower dowel pin, which is already out:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7254379bellhousing01.jpg>
This is the same view showing that the tranmission "appears" level:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6205540bellhousing02.jpg>
This is the passenger side where the dowel pin can be seen up high:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5277197bellhousing03.jpg>
I'm not sure where to place the jack but it's at the transmission waist:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1315488bellhousing04.jpg>

The tool I need is a tool to back the transmission away from the engine.
What tool is that?

rbowman

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Jul 22, 2018, 7:09:17 PM7/22/18

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On 07/22/2018 03:20 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
>
> But damn sure on the nut that holds the compensator sprocket to the
> crankshaft on your Harley ...

Luckily I haven't had to go there yet. I didn't replace the clutch
throwout bearing a few years ago but that's no big deal.

Grant me the knowledge to put LocTite on the things shouldn't come
apart, Never-Seez on the things that should, and the wisdom to know the
difference.

unread,

Jul 23, 2018, 1:29:06 AM7/23/18

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Oh my.

You _must_ support the engine. Either via a block of wood under the oil
pan, a trans lift under the pan, or a bar with chain across the shock towers
or hood opening. If you dont, the engine will tilt. Bad things can happen
like something goes through the radiator or the exhaust manifold breaks,
wires get ripped off, etc.
The cross member - remove it. It will make life a lot easier.
You did not say what specific engine, vehicle, trans, etc, but without
removing it it is doubtful that that there will be enough room to back off
the trans and then tilt forward to drop it with out breaking off the tail shaft.
So why are you removing the trans? To R&R the clutch?
If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.
You will need a clutch plate centering tool.
Thread lock- I tend to use blue thread lock on small bolts and nuts
that get torqued to inch pounds but not on large bolts that get
torqued to 100+ foot pounds. A suggestion: replace any lock washers.

rbowman

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Jul 23, 2018, 2:09:03 AM7/23/18

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You took out the cross member under the transmission, right? Do the
engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts
play a part? In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate
downward and binding the transmission?

I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does
the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the
support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove.

rbowman

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Jul 23, 2018, 2:12:27 AM7/23/18

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On 07/22/2018 11:29 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.

Good advice. I've replaced two throwout bearings on my F150. I did the
clutch and pressure plate too the second time around even though both
were serviceable. The latest throwout bearing is composite, not cast
iron, and hopefully will last. For the record, it wasn't the bearing
itself but the body binding on the transmission.

Tekkie®

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Jul 23, 2018, 2:40:15 PM7/23/18

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Wade Garrett posted for all of us...

>
> On 7/22/18 4:10 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> > Which is best for dropping the transmission?
> >
> > Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount?
> > * Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg
> > * Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg
> > * Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg
> >
> > Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
> > http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg
> >
> If you have to ask those questions, the job is above your pay grade...

I believe this guy is the valve stem thread, harbor freight bead breaker,
tire spec, brake lining spec Ultrec nym shifter. If he would just post under
one name then I and more people would help him. Since I posted this the
insults and diversions will now start.

--
Tekkie

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Jul 23, 2018, 5:59:19 PM7/23/18

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On 22 Jul 2018 23:09:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> You took out the cross member under the transmission, right?

Yup. And I'm glad I did as you need all the room you can get the first time
you do this job, especially since the transmission jack is kind of big.

> Do the
> engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts
> play a part?

The engine is fully supported with the transmission out. Even so, I now
have a jack under it, just in case I want to move it upward to align things
on the replacement.

Not true. When the flywheel is off the rear main seal replacement is
a 10 minute job.

>
>Always replace the pressure plate and disc and the throwout bearing.
>Often, if the friction plate hasn't worn down to where the rivets have
>badly eaten up the flywheel, you don't need a new or regrind on the
>flywheel. If the scoring or grooves are small, the new clutch plate will
>wear in and work fine, although it will have slightly less lifetime
>since the grooving takes up a tiny bit of it's thickness during break in.

From the picture supplied, a new clutch will chatter like an angry
chipmunk. ANd NEVER take a chance on the pilot bearing - particularly
if it is a "rolling element" bearing. - which virtually EVERY Toyota
pilot bearing is.

>
>A clutch is exactly the same type mechanism as a brake disk and rotor,
>or brake shoes and drums. Use your experience there to guide you.

He has none

>
>Judging when something must be replaced or reground is largely a matter
>of experience, so you'll just have to go from there and learn from any
>mistakes. There are no magic solutions.
>

No, but there is "generally accepted practice"
>Good luck.
>
If he follows your instructions he'll need it.
>
>
>

Terry Coombs

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Jul 23, 2018, 9:59:21 PM7/23/18

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Pilot bushings are most easily removed by filling them with grease ,
then using a round bar that fits snugly to apply hydraulic pressure -
put one end of that round bar in the bushing and smack the other end
with a hammer . A big one works better ... the bushing will pop right out .

Arlen Holder

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Jul 23, 2018, 11:47:22 PM7/23/18

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On 23 Jul 2018 18:48:58 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> Man, that is an OBVIOUS case of an overheated and hard spotted
> flywheel. Someone needs to learn to drive a standard transmission!!!.
> The flywheel absolutely needs to be machined, at the very least.

Thanks Clare, as I appreciate your help given this is my first clutch
repair where I have nobody to help me here who knows anything about
transmissions.

I'll snap before-and-after photos for you since you've been so helpful.

I saw those hard spots and will take your advice (I'm not the driver).
Had I thought ahead, I would have bought an OEM flywheel from Camelback
Toyota in Arizona (who generally has the best dealer price).

Machining is $60 at a local shop (I could only find one shop that does it).

A new flywheel at the Toyota dealer is $375.27 (PN 13405-75040).
<https://partsfactory.camelbacktoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-flywheel-1340575040/>

O'Reillys can get them for me at $81.74 out the door for their
"PowerTorque" brand. I generally buy dealer online, but I don't have the
time for that now. Do you have any info on the O'Reilly brand? (The counter
guy says he thinks it's actually a Sachs because he said the clutch is
Sachs.)

Autozone has a "BrutePower" brand for $82 out the door.
A local shop has a "LUK" brand flywheel for $95 out the door.

Would you resurface or buy new?
I'm inclined to buy new, but the generally I'd get the Toyota OEM brand.
But the price above is a *discount* Internet price, so it's gonna be $500
at the local dealer and they generally the local Toyota dealer almost never
has anything in stock I've ever needed from them.

You used to work at Toyota I think.
Do you have experience with any of the non-OEM brands above?

Thanks for your help.

Arlen Holder

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Jul 24, 2018, 12:09:30 AM7/24/18

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On 23 Jul 2018 18:55:42 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> Not true. When the flywheel is off the rear main seal replacement is
> a 10 minute job.

I'll take your advice Clare. A new rear main seal is $20 at the local
Toyota dealer, who has it in stock, so I'll pick one up tomorrow.

I think people recommend Toyota FIPG instead of the paper gaskets for it
too. It's not leaking, but, it's old so I'll take your advice since you
know this stuff best on this ng.

> From the picture supplied, a new clutch will chatter like an angry
> chipmunk. ANd NEVER take a chance on the pilot bearing - particularly
> if it is a "rolling element" bearing. - which virtually EVERY Toyota
> pilot bearing is.

Thanks for that information Clare as I have the Rockauto Aisin Kit CKT-051:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7696401clitchkit01.jpg>
. Aisin disc stamped DTX-137L & 6H26
. Aisin diaphragm stamped Aisin 17.01.20 & CTX-106
. Koyo pilot molded 6201 RS ROM 017 & Koyo 6201 RS ROM 057
. Koyo pilot box printed 6201RSC3 & PBT-002
. Koyo release stamped Koyo Japan 49H & RCT356SA9
. Koyo release box printed RBT-004 & RCT356SA9 & FG Gen M1412
. Plastic alignment tool stamped USA 11

>> Use your experience there to guide you.
>
> He has none

Tekkie®

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Jul 24, 2018, 3:17:00 PM7/24/18

to

Arlen Holder posted for all of us...

>

You may need a puller to get the old pilot bushing out.

--
Tekkie

Arlen Holder

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Jul 24, 2018, 5:14:08 PM7/24/18

to

On 23 Jul 2018 18:59:38 GMT, Terry Coombs wrote:

> Pilot bushings are most easily removed by filling them with grease ,
> then using a round bar that fits snugly to apply hydraulic pressure -
> put one end of that round bar in the bushing and smack the other end
> with a hammer . A big one works better ... the bushing will pop right out .

Thanks for that helpful advice Terry.

Since I've never done this, I need advice on even the simplest things if
I've never encountered them before.

For bearings, I have plenty of harmonic balancer pullers and gear pullers
but all of them latch to the OUTSIDE of a gear, hence they won't work on
this bearing because there's nothing to hold on to on the outside.

I didn't try the packed grease trick yet, but since I have to pick up the
new flywheel and rear engine seal anyway, I may as well pick up a bearing
puller at Home Depot or the auto parts store to get this pilot bearing out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4808619transmission01.jpg>

The main question I have is for Clare, which is how does that rear main
seal come out, and would he use the paper gasket that supposedly comes with
it or Toyota FIPG instead (or both)?

Arlen Holder

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Jul 24, 2018, 5:16:12 PM7/24/18

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On 24 Jul 2018 12:08:15 GMT, TekkieŽ wrote:

> You want to buy 6 point impact sockets...

The problem with that is that the flywheel bolts are 12 point.

> IF you hold the flywheel you MAY be able to get it of with a cheater.

The flywheel is off. I used a lock stop and a normal 1/2 inch breaker bar.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1744336transmission02.jpg>

> Electric impacts have improved. Your present air impact may be weak because
> your setup cannot deliver enough air at sufficient pressure.

I first tried the hand impact tool, and it failed.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1244980flywheel04.jpg>

Then I tried the air-impact gun, and it failed even worse.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4748611flywheel02.jpg>

The air pressure is 120psi and the hose is 50 feet of 1/2 inch line, and
the setting was set to 4 (smallest hole and to 1 biggest hole - as I'm not
sure which is high pressure and which is low pressure) and it didn't do a
thing (it never does, which is why I never use it).

It's a Universal Tool UT 2210:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5614055flywheel03.jpg>

Later, not today, I'll post a thread asking for a specific gun that I can
buy on the net that actually works that isn't too expensive (because I
almost never use a gun so it has to pay for itself with very few uses).

What worked is the old school method, which only took a little more effort:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1291741flywheel01.jpg>

What I need to ask Clare is how to get to that rear engine seal.
Do I take out all those bolts around the pilot bearing area?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4808619transmission01.jpg>

Arlen Holder

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Jul 24, 2018, 5:19:28 PM7/24/18

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On 24 Jul 2018 12:00:31 GMT, TekkieŽ wrote:

> +500 on that! I don't know if machining will take all that out with any life
> left in it. He stated he was down to the rivets so who knows what else...

The rivets were worn only on the side facing the transmission, not the side
facing the flywheel.

Resurfacing the flywheel doesn't seem worth it since it's $60 to resurface
today and you never know how deeply the guy has to go (it was resurfaced
once before about 10 years ago) and you don't know if he does a good job or
not (but he probably does a great job as he's recommended by others).

So I'm buying a new flywheel, and, in fact, the old one is already off.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4808619transmission01.jpg>

I was hoping Clare could recommend a flywheel given the information I
provided (Toyota is as high as $700 while the parts stores are all below
$100).

rbowman

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Jul 24, 2018, 6:54:25 PM7/24/18

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On 07/23/2018 03:59 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> The problem was stupid. Really stupid. I am embarrassed. I removed the
> exhaust bracket bolts (two of them) but I didnt' realize that the bracket,
> even when not connected to the bell housing, was in the way of the bell
> housing moving backward. I'm an idiot. It was all my fault.

That's not as bad as suddenly realizing the transmission is hanging from
the speedometer cable... I doubt they exist anymore so make that some
sort of sensor wiring.

Clare Snyder

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Jul 24, 2018, 10:08:12 PM7/24/18

to

No experience with aftermarket flywheels or O-Reillys. Sachs or LUK
should bothbe good. Both are OEM manufacturers for many european
makers.

The flywheel looks bad enough that for the difference between $60 to
machine and $95 for a new LUK there shouldn't be any question.

Clare Snyder

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Jul 24, 2018, 10:15:01 PM7/24/18

to

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 21:16:09 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
out, and carefully drive it in. and DEFINITELY replace that pilot
bearing!!!!!!! You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 1:47:39 AM7/25/18

to

On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
> sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
> out, and carefully drive it in.

Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.

This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
<https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg>

It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
<https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003>

Even though it's in the back of the engine:
<https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html>

It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
<https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012>

The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).

They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg>

Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).

I'd really like to replace that seal even though it isn't leaking, because
if it does ever leak, you have to remove the transmission to get to it.

I'll try another dealer tomorrow (there are two within 30 miles of me).

> and DEFINITELY replace that pilot bearing!!!!!!!

Yup. I'm taking all your advice. The kit comes with a pilot bearing:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg>

> You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
> most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
> like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -

The amazing thing is that I went to two parts stores today, both of which
rent out the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer (separately), where the
amazing thing is that the bearing pullers are all TOO BIG to fit inside
this pilot bearing!

The people at both stores tried to fit it inside the new bearing, which,
luckily, I had in my pocket, where they're too fat even though you can
slide the teeth forward one at a time.

It's pretty amazing since this looks like a pretty standard engine and so
it has a pretty standard pilot bearing, right? The pilot bearing is a "6201
RS" which is a very common bearing for lots of shafts.

The tool is two pieces, as you noted.
1. A slide hammer that screws into the back end of the tool
2. The tool itself, which has both sliding and expanding jaws

Yet, both bearing pullers I tested at those two parts stores were too big.

I could rent one, and then grind it down to fit, but that would be abuse.
If I could have found a tool that fit, I would have bought it already.

I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 1:47:41 AM7/25/18

to

On 24 Jul 2018 19:08:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> No experience with aftermarket flywheels or O-Reillys. Sachs or LUK
> should bothbe good. Both are OEM manufacturers for many european
> makers.
>
> The flywheel looks bad enough that for the difference between $60 to
> machine and $95 for a new LUK there shouldn't be any question.

Thanks Clare,

You have, by far, the most experience here and I have, by far, the least,
hence I appreciate the advice.

I was worried about getting the flywheel off, but it came out easily once I
put a 1/2-inch-socket breaker bar to the ten 14-mm 12-point bolts:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1179779flywheel07.jpg>

I had to wait all day for the new flywheel to arrive, which it did late in
the day. So I'm sorry for the lousy before-and-after picture below but it
was taken at night when I got home.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2793357flywheel05.jpg>

Looking at the flywheel, I can't visually see or feel anything that is any
lesser quality, where the box for the new flywheel has OE all over it, and
inside stickers saying it meets OEM specs.

I was surprised the new flywheel is almost the same thickness as the
original, the difference being almost imperceptible ... which I can measure
tomorrow, but you can barely feel it.

I had expected the new flywheel to be a lot thicker than the old one since
I know the original has about 180K miles on it and it was supposedly turned
once at somewhere around 80K miles sometime around 2005.

Going to the dealer for the rear oil seal was an experience in futility.

Uncle Monster

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Jul 25, 2018, 2:26:55 AM7/25/18

to

You have quite a project there. I used to spend all night fixing my old car so I could make it to work the next day. I miss being able to do a little old transmission swap. Good luck with your repairs and may the clutch be with you. Yoda mechanic. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Clutch Monster

Clare Snyder

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Jul 25, 2018, 8:54:47 AM7/25/18

to

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 05:47:36 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
>> sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
>> out, and carefully drive it in.
>
>Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
>I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
>really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.
>
>This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
> <https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg>
>
>It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
><https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003>

The timing cover seal is the FRONT seal

>
>Even though it's in the back of the engine:
><https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html>
>
>It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
><https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012>
>
>The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
>had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
>seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
>this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
>phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
>different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
>about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
>for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).
>

The first 2 links show the correct part

>They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg>
>
>Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).

The 88003should bethe right part

I've done it with a long 6mm bolt and nut, Put the nut on the bolt.
Stick the end withthe nut through the hole in the bearing. Inset a
small screwdriver to keep the nut from turning and thread the bolt in
untill the nut pushes the bearing out.

>
>I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
>might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
>small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.

Works a lot better on "bushings" than "bearings" but could work. Use
THICK grease!!

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 4:44:02 PM7/25/18

to

Clutches have gotten much better in the last few decades. Some of the
old cars from the 40's and 50's had to have the clutch routinely
serviced/replaced about every 50K miles. The durn brakes had to be
adjusted every few thousand miles, and tuneups with new points.

I drove a small 1990 ford FWD car for 250,000 miles and never replaced
the clutch, though lots of other things needed minor repairs. But I
never abused the clutch ... There were no teenage drivers.

The point is to not overdo this. The car may up and die from some
unrelated cause after you have gone the full 9 yards and spent a small
fortune.

If it wasn't Elvis Presley's car, or a priceless antique, your
investment is wiped out when it dies.

Good luck, and hoping you fix that buggy soon!

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 5:23:12 PM7/25/18

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On 25 Jul 2018 05:54:45 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> The first 2 links show the correct part

> The 88003should bethe right part

Thanks Clare,
This morning I confirmed with a local Toyota dealer that the right parts
are:
1. Rear engine seal 90311-88003 (confirmed) $47.59 (not in stock)
2. Rear transmission seal 90311-30014 (confirmed) $15.4 (not in stock)

Almost always, the dealer doesn't have parts in stock, which kind of
negates the whole function of the parts guy at a dealership.

> Works a lot better on "bushings" than "bearings" but could work. Use
> THICK grease!!

What worked fine was your suggestion and that of others to use grease, only
my grease gun is from the 1940s (AFAIK) and I left it in the hot sun today
to snap pictures for you, so the grease was too runny to be effective.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9892867pilot01.jpg>

What worked on top of the grease was chewed up pizza, which the wife made
for me, where the bolt is a M12x1.25 that I bought yesterday to make dowel
pins out of.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4393046alignmentpin03.jpg>

I checked the M12x12 bolts in the engine block as alignment pins:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5138741alignmentpin01.jpg>

I cut the hex head off and sliced a slot for a large screwdriver to fit:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1163525alignmentpin02.jpg>

I tested that they fit in the holes in the transmission bell housing:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4393046alignmentpin03.jpg>

And then I screwed them into the engine block to act as 2 more dowel pins:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7157145alignmentpin04.jpg>

Other than the fact the clutch fork and throwout bearing fell out before I
could mark which way they do, I think I'm ready to begin reassembly.'

Any reassembly advice would be useful as most DIYs say "reassembly is the
reverse of removal", which is never the case.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 5:23:14 PM7/25/18

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On 25 Jul 2018 13:19:54 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

> That can work great. But the biggest problem is finding a drift or bar
> stock that EXACTLY fits the pilot bearing ... especially if the latter
> is badly worn and possibly distorted. It is definitely worth a try
> though, if you can't find a tool that fits.

Thanks to the suggestions from Terry & Clare and others, the pilot bearing
is out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg>

I first tried the grease gun with an M12x1.25 bolt but my gun is old (it's
from the 1940's AFAIK) and it wasn't working well and the grease was too
thin (but I left it in the hot sun to take pictures and that didn't help).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9892867pilot01.jpg>

I used the wife's home made pizza, chewed up, and placed in the pilot hole.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1163525alignmentpin02.jpg>

An M12x1.25 bolt that I bought to make dowel pins out of worked fine with
parafilm wrapped on the threads to snug it up a bit.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4879341pilot03.jpg>

It only took about 10 minutes but it took am amazing number of refills.

Thanks everyone for that idea. Since the clutch fork fell out while I was
tipping the transmission on its end to look at the rear seal, everything is
out now (I just have to figure out how it all goes back together!).

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 5:28:58 PM7/25/18

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On 25 Jul 2018 05:57:38 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> For gasket maker I never use anything but "the right stuff" from
> Permatex

Thanks Clare.
I'm pretty much ready for reassembly.

I'm not sure if I pack the pilot bearing area with grease or not:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg>

But here's that promised before & after flywheel photo with part numbers
stamped "Engineerd in USA PHT50-136-033118" on the new flywheel:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6217915flywheel001.jpg>
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4020392flywheel002.jpg>

One screwup is that the clutch fork and throwout bearing fell out when I
tipped the transmission vertical on the bell housing to look at the rear
seal where I'm not sure what the proper technique is to get it out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5004047rearseal01.jpg>

So I'm looking up how they went back together where I should have marked
the position when I first took the transmission off the engine.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9205011fork01.jpg>

Most of my mistakes and questions are because I've never done this before.
Thanks for your patience and advice.

Clare Snyder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 9:17:08 PM7/25/18

to

There is only one way it will go together and go in. Sit down and
look at it for a while.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 9:38:25 PM7/25/18

to

On 25 Jul 2018 18:17:05 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> There is only one way it will go together and go in. Sit down and
> look at it for a while.

Thanks Clare,
You were right yet again, where the fork went back on the only way it can,
so I'm good (I'll post pictures later as I'm trying to use the daylight).

There are two spring clips, one for attaching the fork to the divot ball,
and the other for attaching the throwout bearing to the fork. Both slipped
in perfectly.

I torqued down the flywheel where the torque figures seemed kind of low to
me, so I upped them a bit.

Toyota says 20 foot pounds plus 1/4 turn for the 3RZFE engine, which seems
right, but 65 foot pounds for the 6-cylinder 5RZ, where 65 seems too low.
Most people seem to equate the two methods, but the first method definitely
gets an extra 10 foot pounds or so, IMHO. Anyway, I torqued to 75 because
65 didn't seem right. A drop of loctite blue (I won't use the red after I
read up on it).

Since I had never used loctite before, I didn't really it's as runny as
water. I had expected it to be more pasty.

It seems these are the torque figures I'll be using:
. Starter bolts 30ft#
. Bellhousing bolts 54ft#
. Pressure plate bolts 14ft#
. Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ & 5VZ)
(65 foot pounds feels kind of loose to me)

At this point, the only major worry is lining up the transmission for that
last inch, and then backing out the two bolts I made as dowel pins and then
getting the 30 inches of extension to torque the thing down.

Clare Snyder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 10:54:03 PM7/25/18

to

You are NOT a mechanical engineer..FOLLOW THE TORQUE SPECSs!!!!!!!
You do NOT want a flywheel bolt fracturing after you have it all back
together and running!!!!!!!!!!!
The torque spec is correct, and was arrived at for a good reason
The difference is the 3RZ uses torque to yield, or "stretch" bolts
(which SHOULD be replaced every time they are removed)
You do NOT want to over-stretch a bolt that is not designed for
"torque to yield" - or strip the threads out of the crankshaft
either!!!!!!!!

Uncle Monster

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 5:57:39 AM7/26/18

to

I seem to recall torque specs being different for dry threads and lubed threads. I could be wrong because It's been a while since I was a young man spending all night under my old car fixing it so I could make it to work the next morning. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Mechanical Monster

Arlen Holder

unread,

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 9:51:07 PM7/26/18

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On 26 Jul 2018 17:50:07 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

>>I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
>>How do you rotate it?
>
> Stick the driveshaft in.

Hi Clare,
I didn't think of that!

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

Anyway, yet again, your answer came too late, but it's good to know as I
would have asked why on earth people said to put the transmission in the
high (fifth) gear, since that's the *only* step where it's needed (any gear
works fine for the rest of the transmission job).

I tried to use pliers on the shaft on the back of the transmission but
there's absolutely zero chance you'll spin it that way.

What I ended up doing was loosening the straps on the transmission jack and
then putting my head way back at the differential, and my feet on the back
of the transmission and I jiggled the transmission like it was a bowl of
jello.

When I went forward to look at the effect, voila, the bolts were lined up
and slid onto my two 17mm diameter threaded 3-inch dowels (which were a
Godsend, where I'm super happy that I machined them!).

I didn't use any loctite because I want to put all the bolts in first, and
then snug them up, and then remove one by one, to loctite blue when I'm
actually ready to torque them.

At this point, I don't have any questions as I'm just at the stage of
putting back the myriad bolts and sensors and fluid.

I have two now-old questions that I would love more detail on, both of
which are about "alignment" of the transmission shaft.

1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)

2. When I got stuck in the last inch or two on the transmission, I didn't
know why it wouldn't go that last inch. I thought of what it could be and
the most likely was that I was off center with the flywheel but it could
also have been maybe that the splines weren't lined up? If the splines
weren't lined up, would that stop the clutch from going in, or, would they
just line themselves up while I jiggled (something in that jiggling worked,
but what)?

I must repeat that neither of those two questions is critical because I'm
past that stage, but I'm curious about what exactly is aligned by the
plastic tool, and whether the splines in the end will line up on their own
with just jiggling or if the drive shaft is needed.

If the drive shaft is needed, it must only twist a teeny tiny amount,
because how much twisting could it take to align those splines (1/16th
inch?).

Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

rbowman

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 11:17:37 PM7/26/18

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On 07/26/2018 07:51 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> 1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
> alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
> transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
> notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
> what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)

If the clutch plate was aligned with the pilot bushing when you bolted
down the pressure plate you would know what the tool was for. How would
you align it without the tool?

Clare Snyder

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 11:26:58 PM7/26/18

to

The splines DO need to line up - don't you think? One way or another
something needs to make them not hit tooth to tooth.

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 8:14:01 PM7/27/18

to

On 22 Jul 2018 08:10:10 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

> Which is best for dropping the transmission?

SOLVED!

It's done. I am gonna take it for a smoke test.

The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),
and the alignment tool that came with the clutch kit, and the assortment of
extension bars, and the two M12x1.25 3-inch threaded dowels.

In the end, I removed more than is necessary, but I'm glad I did remove the
front wheels (particularly the driver side), the front sway bar, the entire
harness (every bolt and every sensor), and the cross member.

The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
back in, which is the only job that really required two people. I did
everything else alone. The second hardest task was lining up the
transmission to go in because you're staring at a hunk of aluminum not
knowing why it won't move forward.

The top two 17mm bell housing bolts were not easy, but not all that
difficult with 30 inches of extensions and swivels.

Pouring the new Redline MT-90 into the conning tower turns out to be the
*easiest* way to refill a transmission, bar none.

Having four 15-inch jack stands was instrumental, as I needed at least 23
inches of clearance from the frame to get the transmission in and out.

The actual transmission work was easy, including the diaphragm, the pilot
bearing, the throwout bearing, and the fork, but I would have liked thicker
grease on the fork (but I only had Mobil 1 bearing grease).

I wrote up a detailed DIY so that others could benefit from all the work,
and I took hundreds of pictures. I don't know if I'll ever associate the
pictures with each task, but I'll try to help others.

Thanks for all your advice and help. If there is a bedding procedure, now
is the time to let me know! Pictures later.

I very much appreciate you help, because it's my first clutch job ever and
I have nobody around me who knows anything about cars - so your advice was
instrumental!

Hank Rogers

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 8:20:48 PM7/27/18

to

Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
for a while before you lean hard on it.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 9:07:35 PM7/27/18

to

On 07/27/2018 06:13 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),

I've done it without a jack when I was young and poor. Then I found you
could rent them from most rental places. I saw the light right after I
pulled the cast iron 4 speed primitive automatic from a '49 Chrysler. I
got it our without crushing any vital body parts but I knew it wasn't
going back in that way.

> The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
> back in, which is the only job that really required two people.

https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Servicegard-Starter-Wrench-JDE80.html

Yeah, I know that's for a John Deere but it was the first link with a
photo I came to. Trust me, that's not even the weirdest starter motor
wrench I've seen. I'm sure when they're bolting the assembly together on
the production line it's a piece of cake but then they grease it up and
shove it into the body.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 9:08:11 PM7/27/18

to

On 27 Jul 2018 17:20:42 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

> Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
> for a while before you lean hard on it.

Thanks for that advice. I took it on a flat road and up a hill but not yet
on the highway as it's kind of far so I'll let the driver do that.

I did stall it a couple of times when I was doing a first and reverse K
turn, which is strange but that's because it used to grab almost at the top
of the clutch pedal return, and even then, it had grabbed smoothly (since
it was super worn).

Now it grabs much earlier and very firmly on the pedal uplift. Much earlier
than it did before. But that old clutch had something like 90K miles on it,
and about 10 years of driving, so a difference in feel is to be expected.

It's a self-adjusting (so to speak, but really that just means it's
hydraulic) so there's nothing to adjust but pedal play to the master
cylinder.

I'll deal with that adjustment later, as I've done it before and it's
really not a hard science it seems, as there's nothing but a bit of free
play to measure (you can't really measure it ... you just feel for it).

BTW, it's a stock 1:1 replacement for the 900 foot pound original clutch,
where the Marlin Crawler outfit sells a 1200 pound clutch that they 'say'
is better but I can't imagine what more foot pounds will do for a clutch
since the engine only develops something like 250 foot pounds (which may
not be the same type since one is angular and the other maybe not).

Anyway, everything is working - where I appreciate the help because it was
my first clutch, which took more than twice as long as I had thought it
would take and where, with your help, I did everything alone except for the
starter motor replacement - where a friend helped me.

It feels good to finally know what a pilot bearing is, and where it goes,
and how it goes in, and how it comes out. Likewise with the throwout
bearing.

I did test Clare's suggestion on the old clutch plate and diaphragm where I
can see now that gravity will pull it down off center which will then be
bolted off center if I don't use the alignment tool. With the alignment
tool, there was no alignment problem (other than having to jiggle the
bejesus out of the transmission to get the splines to line up).

Another thing Clare and others suggested was to spin the transmission
through the driveshaft, which turned out to be very easy when I tried it.

Overall, I'm glad I did it, as there are some jobs that are too big to do
at home, where lots of people consider this one of them. I feel like I
graduated, a bit, into an elite group, who has done a clutch at least once.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 9:10:05 PM7/27/18

to

On 07/27/2018 06:20 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
> Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
> for a while before you lean hard on it.

Reading between the lines he is not the principal driver. Maybe take it
for a long, gentle road trip before handing it over...

Or there is the other school of break-in -- drive it like you stole it.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 9:23:19 PM7/27/18

to

On 27 Jul 2018 18:08:20 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I've done it without a jack when I was young and poor.

I have heard of that, and, truth be told, this transmission was light
enough for me to move around in my hands, but, I'd *never* do the job
without that transmission jack. Too much chance of getting tired and
getting hurt if it doesn't go in or out on schedule.

I admire anyone who has removed a transmission without a jack!

> Then I found you
> could rent them from most rental places. I saw the light right after I
> pulled the cast iron 4 speed primitive automatic from a '49 Chrysler. I
> got it our without crushing any vital body parts but I knew it wasn't
> going back in that way.

Cast iron. OMG. This one is aluminum, thank God. And 2WD. And I had taken
all the fluid out. So it was a light as it was going to get, and still, I
wouldn't do that job without a transmission jack.

I don't like the jack I got, but it did the job. It could adjust side to
side and up and down, but not much on the down because the handle hit the
bottom of the transmission (poor design). I had to bolt on a piece of 3/4
inch scrap to raise the transmission away from the knob.

>
>> The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
>> back in, which is the only job that really required two people.
>
> https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Servicegard-Starter-Wrench-JDE80.html

Something like that wrench might have worked. I tried every 14mm tool in my
repertoire, and finally I got it. There's no way I was gonna get a torque
wrench on it though, so, at 30 pounds, I just guessed.

> Yeah, I know that's for a John Deere but it was the first link with a
> photo I came to. Trust me, that's not even the weirdest starter motor
> wrench I've seen. I'm sure when they're bolting the assembly together on
> the production line it's a piece of cake but then they grease it up and
> shove it into the body.

The problem was that the two bolts were blocked by almost everything no
matte rwhat direction you came at them.

If you tried from above, you could barely put a fingertip on the upper
bolt. If you tried from the wheel well, you could get only one hand. And
if you tried from below, you couldn't see what you're doing.

It was horrid.
But that part is over thank God.

Really - the hardest part, in hindsight, other than not knowing what to do,
was that starter motor. I'm glad it's over with. (It's my first starter
motor too.)

If I do it again, I'd pick up all the shapes of 14mm wrenches that God has
designed, hoping that one of them would be the perfect shape!

Clare Snyder

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 10:16:26 PM7/27/18

to

yes

Clare Snyder

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Jul 27, 2018, 10:17:46 PM7/27/18

to

not really - - -

unread,

Jul 28, 2018, 1:18:39 PM7/28/18

to

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 06:32:15 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 27 Jul 2018 19:16:22 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>>>If it's a 1:1 ratio, then it would seem only the teenies tinyies twist of
>>>the driveshaft is what's needed.
>>>
>>>Is that assumption correct?
>>
>> yes
>
>Thanks again for all your help.
>I am happy to have finally, after many decades of being afraid of doing a
>transmission, gotten my "boy scout badge" for doing one.
>
>It's probably my first and last transmission ever, but I have already
>forgotten about the "thousand situps" I did, in effect, by getting up and
>down to get tools and parts over the past five days.
>
>I'm told sometimes even transmission shops take as long (elapsed time) as I
>did to replace a clutch, although I would think, in actual shop hours, the
>job would be less than six or seven hours (I'm guessing though).

On a rwd car or light truck anything over 3 hours means the mechanic
is slacking oir something went wrong.

I did a Loadstar school bus clutch with the shop foreman (an idiot
dutchman) barking over my shoulder when I was about 19 in less than 4
hours - and that included pulling the trans, dropping the clutch,
installing the clutch (having the disk slip out of place and hastilly
re-installing it) totally re-assembling then finding I had, in haste,
installed the disk backwards - dissassembling it again. puttingthe
disk back in the right way, knocking the release bearing off the fork,
reinstalling it in haste, checking the clutch BEFORE reistalling the
floor this time, and having the pedal drop to the floor because I had
put the release bearing in backwards, dis-assembling, reinstalling the
release bearing, retesting (got it right this time) and buttoning it
back up.

Nasty 400 lb? transmission, and working INSIDE the bell housing as the
bell housing served as the rear mounting for the engine.

I was a few minutes over flat rate time - even with all the screw-ups
- and I gave the shop foreman a good piece of my mind when it was all
over.

"push me and all you'll do is slow mw down - or get run over in the
process"

Same fool who couldn't diagnose a headlight problem on a 510 Datsun -
all 4 sealed beams were burned out. He kept asking me questions while
I was working on another job. After his second or third question I
knew what was wrong - but he kept asking the wrong questions for 2
hours - while trying to tell me how to fix a dome light that would not
shut oiff on a brand new Ambassador (found a screw through the wiring
harness)

When I finished the Ambassador I said "you still working on that
datsun?"

He said "you so F'n smart - YOU fix it"
I hollered tothe parts department "2 5001s and 2 5006s please", then
proceded to replace the sealed beams , without checking ANYTHING
first.

He was MAD that I hadn't told him what was wrong - bet the silly ass
had never asked me. He's managed to ask just about every other
question it was possible to come up with (something like you do on
accaision, Arlen) - but never asked me what I thought the problem was.

>
>It took me longer because I documented every single step down to the detail
>of the thread pitch, and I took many pictures, and I cleaned up the parts,
>and I had to learn each time how to do the steps I had never done (like
>aligning the transmission splines).
>
>Most of the time the answers came too late, as I had figured them out by
>then, but it's very nice to know that the solution I came up with (except
>on torque) was the right one in the end.
>
>I don't know what I'll do with that transmission jack. It will probably
>take up space in my garage forever though. :)

Clean it up, paint it gold, and keep it as a trophy - - - -

Clare Snyder

unread,

Jul 28, 2018, 1:21:53 PM7/28/18

to

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:32:40 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 27 Jul 2018 19:17:43 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>>>Then I'll take her for a test drive. Is there a bedding procedure for
>>>clutches like there is for brakes?
>> not really - - -
>
>Thanks yet again Clare,
>You give me the confidence to move forward on these tough-for-me jobs!
>
>The test went supremely.
>The clutch grabbed well, and low on the pedal uplift cycle.
>Previously it grabbed too softly and super high (last half inch).
>Now it grabs in the first few inches and grabs well.
>I even stalled it a couple of times during a K turn.
>I warned the driver to slip the clutch when doing slow speed K turns.
>

Guaranteeing you'll get to do the job again??

No need to EVER "slip" a clutch.(unless you have a severely
under-powerd vehicle) - with the exception possibly of pulling away on
a STEEP hill. Just learn to co-ordinate the throttle and the clutch.

Uncle Monster

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Jul 28, 2018, 1:33:36 PM7/28/18

to

Funny how things work out. I wound up 4F when I tried to join up but my older brother did two tours in Nam as a Green Beret and he wound up in places/countries he wasn't officially supposed to be. O_o

[8~{} Uncle Old Monster

Clare Snyder

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Jul 28, 2018, 1:52:37 PM7/28/18

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On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:44:06 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

>On 07/27/2018 07:23 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
>> Cast iron. OMG. This one is aluminum, thank God. And 2WD. And I had taken
>> all the fluid out. So it was a light as it was going to get, and still, I
>> wouldn't do that job without a transmission jack.
>
>The 3 and 4 speed transmissions with aluminum housings don't weigh that
>much. Particularly when you're twenty.
>
>The Chrysler otoh was a piece of work. It was very early in the
>development of automatics so it had both a clutch and a fluid coupling.

Not an automatic at all - the infamous "fluid drive" or "Hy-Drive"
transmissin.

Put it in high, floor it, and 0 to 30 in about 65 seconds - - - Shift
it like a "normal" standard and it was significantly quicker, but
still slow compared to a standard.

>
>https://www.allpar.com/mopar/m6.html
>
>The moment of truth was when I took the whole weight and realized I
>might be going for a personal best bench press.

You want to do it with a cast iron powergglide in a '60 Biscayne - -
DON'T try it with a Dynaglyde!!!!! - -

>
>The rest of the car followed suit. It was a straight 8, cast iron block
>of course. No power steering. It was pleasant on the highway but my wife
>used words I didn't think she knew trying to parallel park the beast.
>
>They don't make cars like that anymore. Thank the Gods. At about 4500
>pounds 0 to 60 took a while.

Thne heaviest flathead 8 Chrysler ( not Imperial or Town and Country)
was the 47 Saratoga 4 door - at a sprightly3972 lbs with the TC New
Yorker coming in at 4344.

The '49 Crown Imperial limo tipped the scakes at almost 5300.

>. My '62 Continental weighed in over 5000

4927 for the sedan, 5215 for the ragtop

Arlen Holder

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Jul 28, 2018, 2:50:06 PM7/28/18

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On 28 Jul 2018 10:21:51 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> Guaranteeing you'll get to do the job again??
>
> No need to EVER "slip" a clutch.(unless you have a severely
> under-powerd vehicle) - with the exception possibly of pulling away on
> a STEEP hill. Just learn to co-ordinate the throttle and the clutch.

This OP learned how to shift from someone else, where I've told her so many
times to "be gentle" on that clutch pedal that I gave up long ago.

She's not my biological kid. :)
When she does a K turn, it's like 20 points.

I thank you for all your help becuase without that help, I wouldn;t have
the courage to continue.

I did figure out on my own to use "parafilm" to follow your grease trick:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2648766seal_tools.jpg>

And, I used that same parafilm to lock the 17mm upper bolts to the socket:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9271104parafilm.jpg>

This was instrumental because they were on 30 inch long extensions:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5298750extension_bar.jpg>

Which had to reach the bolts head on from the back of the transmission:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1020097jack_stand.jpg>

And I had to modify the transmission stand to allow it to angle forward:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4353722jack_mod.jpg>

Overall, I learned a lot, where I could do it again in half the time, I
think, since I know now how to do what I didnt' know before I asked!

Arlen Holder

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Jul 28, 2018, 3:18:08 PM7/28/18

to

On 28 Jul 2018 10:52:32 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> You want to do it with a cast iron powergglide in a '60 Biscayne - -
> DON'T try it with a Dynaglyde!!!!! - -

I'm super glad my first transmission is aluminum, where it needed onlytwo
feet of height to clear the frame rails:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9934173minimum_height.jpg>

Where it was a Godsend to have this clutch disk alignment tool:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9651345clutch_disc.jpg>

For some reason, the fork kept knocking the throwout bearing off the
spindle so I had to tie it down with tire tube ties:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5303450clutch_fork.jpg>

The best thing I did was machine those two 3-inch long dowel pins!
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3822810dowel_pins.jpg>

But I wish I had done the rear transmission seal like you suggested:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5819021trans_seal.jpg>

And the rear engine oil seal (but Toyota didn't have it in stock):
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3049446dowel_pinned.jpg>

Next time I'll do them! :)

Arlen Holder

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Jul 28, 2018, 3:26:38 PM7/28/18

to

On 27 Jul 2018 18:10:52 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Reading between the lines he is not the principal driver. Maybe take it
> for a long, gentle road trip before handing it over...

She drove it today on the highway and said it didn't vibrate, which is good
because I had mounted and balanced her tires and replaced her rear drums
where I made a rookie mistake by not putting the drum linkages back right.

This time, I rotated the tires again (she eats them up where I wish there
was a way to cash in on the warranty since the car is aligned
professionally and the tires are rotated five times a year in the X and
then H pattern repeatedly (X then H then X then H, etc.).

I wonder if there is a way to "prove" you rotated tires when you do them at
home? I never cashed in on a tire warranty in my life so I don't know how
it works (do you ship them back the four tires, for example?).

I learned a lot I hadn't expected to learn, by the way, such as this is
what the reverse sensor looks like apparently:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2972461reverse_switch.jpg>

And this is apparently the speedometer sensor:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8225189speedometer.jpg>

And that the clutch disc is asymmetric so it has to go in only this way:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4293915clutch_disc.jpg>

Filling the transmission with the Red Line MT-90 was a breeze from the top:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6063171trans_fliud.jpg>

But I wonder what this strange-looking "K" means on the conning tower?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1401901tower_k.jpg>

Arlen Holder

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Jul 28, 2018, 6:09:01 PM7/28/18

to

On 28 Jul 2018 10:18:34 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> On a rwd car or light truck anything over 3 hours means the mechanic
> is slacking oir something went wrong.

Thanks for that information on the 3 hours as this is a RWD, and a 2WD
which has as much room as you can every have on a passenger vehicle.

So, I suspect, the job doesn't get any easier than the one I did, since
there is no 4WD to deal with and the amount of room is astronomical
compared to, oh, say, a typical sports sedan.

I didn't count the hours it took me, but if I count four hours each day of
actual work, that's 6x4=24 hours, which is, for me, acceptable because I
spent a lot of time learning, cleaning, experimenting, making tools,
modifying the jack, swearing, and cursing, and, drinking copious amounts of
lemonade kindly brought to me every few hours by the grandchildren (who
felt sorry for me but who didn't know I was in heaven as I finally, after
decades of being scared, did my first transmission).

The kid whose car it is came over today to pick it up, and she tested it on
the highway, and it worked fine she said (I only tested it locally).

It has 180K miles, where it's definitely only the second clutch as the
vehicle has been in the family since it was born. So a clutch on this
vehicle lasts about 90K miles, on average, since the last one was slipping
also when it was replaced (by a mechanic).

Total cost to me was something around $250 for tools and another $250 for
parts, so it's an approximately $500 gift to the kid who works as a
secretary so she doesn't have a lot of money.

I never could have had the confidence if I didn't know you would help, so
I'm extremely glad for your patience on my rookie questions. I didn't even
realize that the alignment tool did, for example, until *after* I had the
transmission in. And I didn't understand why people said to put it in high
gear since I didn't need to touch the gears at any point in time, so I only
figured that one out after I had trouble getting it back in.

Things like that slowed me down, where, if I had formal education in auto
mechanics, I would have known a LOT more before I did the job. As it is,
the job taxed my tools to the utmost limit, where I was so happy that I had
dozens of assorted half inch and three-eighths inch extensions and swivels
and sockets and wrenches.

In fact, I think this is the first time in my life that I *required*
half-inch tools, since up until now, the 3/8ths inch extensions didn't
twist more than the torque required. But I never had to use 30 inches of
extension before either - which is what is required for the top two bolts
on the transmission hump.

Note in the DIY: Removing the conning tower seems like it would have made a
HUGE improvement in easy of removal!

> I did a Loadstar school bus clutch with the shop foreman (an idiot
> dutchman) barking over my shoulder when I was about 19 in less than 4
> hours - and that included pulling the trans, dropping the clutch,
> installing the clutch (having the disk slip out of place and hastilly
> re-installing it) totally re-assembling then finding I had, in haste,
> installed the disk backwards - dissassembling it again. puttingthe
> disk back in the right way, knocking the release bearing off the fork,
> reinstalling it in haste, checking the clutch BEFORE reistalling the
> floor this time, and having the pedal drop to the floor because I had
> put the release bearing in backwards, dis-assembling, reinstalling the
> release bearing, retesting (got it right this time) and buttoning it
> back up.

Wow. 4 hours. Jesus. I didn't even have all the tools assembled, made and
modified in four hours!

I see you accidentally did what I did which is to knock the release bearing
(aka throwout bearing) off, where any tug on the fork caused the TOB to
fall off the splined transmission shaft until I rubber-banded it in place.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5303450clutch_fork.jpg>

I didn't remove that rubber band until I put the slave cylinder back!
(NOTE: I recently rebuilt the clutch master cylinder and clutch slave
cylinder and replaced the two rubbery plastic bushings in the shift lever,
so, except for the actual transmission itself, the entire shifting system
is all new in the last year.)

I did buy too many jacks though - as now I have an ATV jack in addition to
my transmission jack to store for the rest of my life! (I've already
offered my neighbors the right to borrow them since "they" have ATVs, but I
don't.) <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9075127atv_trans_jack.jpg>

> Nasty 400 lb? transmission, and working INSIDE the bell housing as the
> bell housing served as the rear mounting for the engine.

Yuck. You never forget those jobs!
(I envy you for all your experience!)

> I was a few minutes over flat rate time - even with all the screw-ups
> - and I gave the shop foreman a good piece of my mind when it was all
> over.

It's commendable, with the reassembly you did, that you met flat rate.

> "push me and all you'll do is slow mw down - or get run over in the
> process"

Luckily, my wife and kids left me alone, which is all well and good as they
would have been standing over me like your foreman was, just slowing me
down even further.

> Same fool who couldn't diagnose a headlight problem on a 510 Datsun -
> all 4 sealed beams were burned out. He kept asking me questions while
> I was working on another job. After his second or third question I
> knew what was wrong - but he kept asking the wrong questions for 2
> hours - while trying to tell me how to fix a dome light that would not
> shut oiff on a brand new Ambassador (found a screw through the wiring
> harness)

Wow. That's something you just have to trace to find since you wouldn't
expect a screw in a wiring harness normally. You work backward or forward,
usually backward, until the power or continuity is shot, and that tells you
where the problem is ... if ... if you can get to it. (A wiring harness can
be anywhere though.)

> When I finished the Ambassador I said "you still working on that
> datsun?"
>
> He said "you so F'n smart - YOU fix it"

Hehhehheh...

> I hollered to the parts department "2 5001s and 2 5006s please", then

> proceded to replace the sealed beams , without checking ANYTHING
> first.

Wow. You figured it out just on the problem set presented to you.

> He was MAD that I hadn't told him what was wrong - bet the silly ass
> had never asked me. He's managed to ask just about every other
> question it was possible to come up with (something like you do on
> accaision, Arlen) - but never asked me what I thought the problem was.

I do ask a lot of questions ... but ... on the good side ... you have to
admit that I think for myself (I don't think what everyone else thinks for
example, in that I think about octane, and I think about how to diagnose as
I never throw parts at a problem unless I'm backed up against the wall, and
I always look at the parts to figure out how they work and I often take
them apart for an autopsy to see how they failed.

I should note to you that I'm extremely well educated but not in this
stuff. I have multiple degrees, but in fields completely different than car
or home repair. So I'm very used to asking questions, and I'm extremely
used to what people "think" is the answer intuitively, often (and sometimes
almost always, at least in the case of quantum mechanics) is dead wrong.

So, for example, people "think" you can't balance tires at home ... but you
can. And they think you can't mount them at home - but you can. And they
think you can't measure alignment at home, but you can (I still need to
prove that though).

Another thing about me, Clare, that is extremely different than most
people, is that I CARE about being a good Usenet citizen, even as I value
my privacy. So I always *respond* to most people in any thread I author,
which some people consider trolling, which is ridiculous since I'm simply
being responsive.

I almost always prove what I say I'm doing with photos.
And I almost always write up a DIY to give back to the team.

I almost always summarize the results in the end, and I thank the people
for helping me (where, I often condemn those who don't like the few who
posted early on in this thread, such as Wade Garrett who has been stalking
me from the iOS threads) but in this case, I had too much on my hands to
even bother to tell those useless posters to shut up.

I'm DIFFERENT than almost everyone you've ever met.

How many, for example, write a detailed DIY every time they do a big job?

Other than my privacy fetish (which drives some of you nuts I think even
though I never hide who I am so anyone who claims to figure it out isn't
the genius they think they are simply because it's trivial to do), I'm one
of the best Usenet posters there is because I ask a question and prove
everything I say, and try out every reasonable suggestion (if possible) and
I respond to everyone in the same manner in which they responded to me.

I'm only on Usenet to ask questions and to learn from people who have the
answers. I'm not here for idle chitchat, so I disappear until I have
another question.

I love to learn from you, and I will eventually do the six jobs few do at
home but you've done most of them.
1. Refuel a vehicle (I do it every week where I have it down to a science)
2. Mount, balance, & repair tires (I'm well past the tool break-even point)
3. Major transmission work (a clutch counts since R&R is the hard part)
4. Major internal engine work (I've never ripped an engine apart yet)
5. Paint a car (a grandchild has a handmedown I'd love to paint for her)
6. Align caster, camber & toe (this will be my next project for sure)

I think each of those things above has a DIFFERENT reason people don't do
them, where you have to admit at the very least, even if you disagree with
me, that I think for myself, so I don't follow what most people assume (and
which in some cases I've found to be dead wrong).

For example, refueling a vehicle is trivial, safe, and easy, and I've been
doing that for a decade or more at home (where if I ever get some money,
I'll buy even better gas-station equipment, which is surprisingly
inexpensive but where the limiting factor isn't the equipment but that they
don't deliver less than 200 gallons at a time in general).

Also, despite what most people think, and yes, I know you have TONS of
experience mounting and dynamically balancing a tire and you wouldn't do it
at home, I can mount and balance a sedan tire in fifteen minutes (and you
know that I don't make shit up), where in general, I take longer (because
I'm not in a rush) but it's never longer than a half hour elapsed time
where once you taught me about the "drop center", all was golden from there
(after I had to modify both the tire bead breaker and the tire mounting
tool).

I think the reason people DON'T do these 6 things is... sort of...
1. Fueling --- they don't have the room (I have more than a dozen acres)
2. Mounting --- they "think" it has to be dynamically balanced
3. Transmission --- it's a *lot* of work (whew!) but mostly just bolts
4. Engine --- it's even *more* work (where nobody can afford the downtime)
5. Paint --- you need skills and experience more than the tools
6. Align --- they don't realize how easy toe & camber are to measure

I may be wrong on all of that, because I don't know how people really
think, but you have to admit at least that I think for myself.

Take, for example, the mounting. I already know that mounting is *easy* on
passenger cars, and that it's only a bit harder on truck (SUV) tires.
Anyone who says it's not easy, or that you'll damage the rims (my Bimmer
rims are as soft as most alloy wheels and they're just fine) is talking out
of their ass - because I know - like you know - because I've done it about
25 times now (the tools paid for themselves in about 20 changes).

Anyone who thinks you can't patch plug from the inside doesn't know what
they're talking about. And anyone who thinks you must dynamically balance
every tire doesn't know what they're talking about (IMHO).

I had only one wobble in all this time, and that was due to doing the rear
brake drum wrong (it was a rookie mistake - where I've had disc brakes on
all my high end cars since the 80s until now that I do other people's cars
to help them out. (I know you think that's a lawsuit waiting to happen, but
I do the same on their cars as I would mine where I *know* (as you do) how
many times mechanics skip steps.)

So, yes, I'm different.
I'm intelligent.
I can learn.
I care about my privacy.
I respond to almost everyone worth responding to.
I usually confront the cowardly troll bullies in the threads I author
I ask a question and work it until it's resolved
I post a resolution and almost always write a DIY
And then I disappear (until the next question).

The morons call that being a troll.
I call it being a good Usenet citizen who cares about privacy and doesn't
use the chitchat model (where in the chitchat model people post 99% to
other threads saying almost nothing of value and only 1% to their own
threads, where in the Q&A model, the opposite it true in every way).

> Clean it up, paint it gold, and keep it as a trophy - - - -

I have tools from the 60s, and even some from the 40's, like this grease
gun, where the grease must be thirty years or forty years old inside! :)
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7261355grease_gun.jpg>

QUESTION: That was my dad's grease gun. How old do you think it is?
(I don't know when he bought it as I inherited all his old tools.)

And these impact tools date to the mid 80's as I recall:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6129026airgun_sucks.jpg>

This Craftsman respirator I used when I was blowing out the bell housing
and flywheel dust dates to the 80s for sure when I first attempted
to paint a car (but ended up selling the car in the winter where if you've
never lived in a cold climate - you have no idea how much harder everything
is in the winter and when it rains a lot).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7615636respirator.jpg>

And without a cutting wheel and bench grinder, fabricating these two
invaluable threaded dowels would not have been as easy as they were:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9848347dowel_fab.jpg>

My next two jobs that you'll hear from me are:
a. I want to paint a car, and,
b. I want to align a suspension.

I think both of those two are doable, but I will do my research first and
then, when I'm in the job itself, I may ask you for help to get past the
stumbling blocks.

I don't expect a miracle with the paint job, but anything will look better
than the handmedown paint that the kid has on the car now so I can't make
it much worse. :)

As for the alignment, this vehicle only has camber and toe in the front
that can be changed by twisting a bolt, so that's easy if I buy (or make)
toe plates. The measuring is easy but changing the toe with the weight on
the vehicle is a pain because of the rolling back and forth so I'll likely
just buy toe plates first. Also alignment is a mental bitch because
everything is in the wrong units. You measure inches, for example, but it's
usually in degrees to centerline. WTF. That causes your brain to hurt as
you use trig to figure out the translation.

At least camber is in degrees and you can measure degrees with today's
tools, so, the problem with camber is only getting a jig that works on
multiple vehicles since you have to offset the measuring tool parallel to
the wheel but away from the tire sidewall bulge (sure, there are ways to do
it with a plumb bob but I'd just go for the camber jig for ease of use).

Caster is usually too hard to measure directly, and for this car, it's not
settable anyway. You can calculate it, but what good is the calculation
when you can't set it.

In the rear, this vehicle only has camber and nothing else. So, when most
people think "alignment" they're thinking a $100K machine which is
optimized for a totally different use model than a guy checking his
alignment at home where time and the ability to measure everything isn't
the issue.

All you need is camber and toe for the most part, which means you need a
camber jig and toe plates and as accurate an electronic level as you an
afford.

Anyway, I'm DIFFERENT (which means we are different).
You don't enjoy changing tires, I do.
You think it's dangerous to not go to a mechanic, I think they skip steps.
You may think I'm a troll but I'm not and I am DOING stuff when I ask
things (I don't ask idly).

I should mention the only auto mechanics class I took was in high school in
the sixties, where I was a star pupil and the teacher's pet simply because
he never had anyone in his class so interested in the details. He once was
amazed that I rewound a motorcycle alternator and horn solenoid in the same
week, and that I kept asking questions about fluids, asking why the
viscosity didn't really matter but the API number did, or what really
needed distilled water (the battery) but not the coolant (in reality, once
you look at water chemistry where we lived). I took sulfuric acid from the
chem lab in high school (in those days, you didn't get expelled for
breaking the rules) and refilled my own battery - it lasted about a month
or two, as I recall).

I'm DIFFERENT than most people you've met - so I'm an acquired taste.

What I ask for, in this newsgroup, is the expertise of all the people here,
most of which outweighs mine because I'm educated in totally different
things.

HINT: Ask me about bacteria or electrical engineering and you'll get far
more than you bargained for. :)

unread,

Jul 28, 2018, 11:27:07 PM7/28/18

to

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 22:08:57 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 28 Jul 2018 10:18:34 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> On a rwd car or light truck anything over 3 hours means the mechanic
>> is slacking oir something went wrong.
>
>Thanks for that information on the 3 hours as this is a RWD, and a 2WD
>which has as much room as you can every have on a passenger vehicle.
>
>So, I suspect, the job doesn't get any easier than the one I did, since
>there is no 4WD to deal with and the amount of room is astronomical
>compared to, oh, say, a typical sports sedan.
>
>I didn't count the hours it took me, but if I count four hours each day of
>actual work, that's 6x4=24 hours, which is, for me, acceptable because I
>spent a lot of time learning, cleaning, experimenting, making tools,
>modifying the jack, swearing, and cursing, and, drinking copious amounts of
>lemonade kindly brought to me every few hours by the grandchildren (who
>felt sorry for me but who didn't know I was in heaven as I finally, after
>decades of being scared, did my first transmission).
>
>The kid whose car it is came over today to pick it up, and she tested it on
>the highway, and it worked fine she said (I only tested it locally).
>
>It has 180K miles, where it's definitely only the second clutch as the
>vehicle has been in the family since it was born. So a clutch on this
>vehicle lasts about 90K miles, on average, since the last one was slipping
>also when it was replaced (by a mechanic).

My ranger had 207000km on it when I had to replace the clutch release
cyl - which is inside the bell housing (part of the release bearing)
so we put a new clutch in at the same time. It was significantly less
than half worn out.

You could still buy that same gun 10 or 15 years ago --- so hard to
tell. I used one back in the sixties and it was far feom new -_-

>
>And these impact tools date to the mid 80's as I recall:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6129026airgun_sucks.jpg>

My old CP734 was used when I bought it in 1970 - the "hammer" impact
was common back then as well - and still available in virtually the
same design.

>
>This Craftsman respirator I used when I was blowing out the bell housing
>and flywheel dust dates to the 80s for sure when I first attempted
>to paint a car (but ended up selling the car in the winter where if you've
>never lived in a cold climate - you have no idea how much harder everything
>is in the winter and when it rains a lot).
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7615636respirator.jpg>
>
>And without a cutting wheel and bench grinder, fabricating these two
>invaluable threaded dowels would not have been as easy as they were:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9848347dowel_fab.jpg>
>

I'd use my Myford lathe - but a hacksaw, vice, and file would do the
job in less than 20 minutes - - - -

>My next two jobs that you'll hear from me are:
>a. I want to paint a car, and,
>b. I want to align a suspension.
>
>I think both of those two are doable, but I will do my research first and
>then, when I'm in the job itself, I may ask you for help to get past the
>stumbling blocks.
>
>I don't expect a miracle with the paint job, but anything will look better
>than the handmedown paint that the kid has on the car now so I can't make
>it much worse. :)
>
>As for the alignment, this vehicle only has camber and toe in the front
>that can be changed by twisting a bolt, so that's easy if I buy (or make)
>toe plates. The measuring is easy but changing the toe with the weight on
>the vehicle is a pain because of the rolling back and forth so I'll likely
>just buy toe plates first. Also alignment is a mental bitch because
>everything is in the wrong units. You measure inches, for example, but it's
>usually in degrees to centerline. WTF. That causes your brain to hurt as
>you use trig to figure out the translation.

That's because real alignment equipmnt measures degrees - - -

>
>At least camber is in degrees and you can measure degrees with today's
>tools, so, the problem with camber is only getting a jig that works on
>multiple vehicles since you have to offset the measuring tool parallel to
>the wheel but away from the tire sidewall bulge (sure, there are ways to do
>it with a plumb bob but I'd just go for the camber jig for ease of use).
>
>Caster is usually too hard to measure directly, and for this car, it's not
>settable anyway. You can calculate it, but what good is the calculation
>when you can't set it.

It lets you know if something is bent - and if it is you'll be
chasing your tail for a LONG time trying to find out why the car won't
run straight hands off - - - -

>
>In the rear, this vehicle only has camber and nothing else. So, when most
>people think "alignment" they're thinking a $100K machine which is
>optimized for a totally different use model than a guy checking his
>alignment at home where time and the ability to measure everything isn't
>the issue.

ANd how will you know if the rear axle/suspensionis bent?????

>All you need is camber and toe for the most part, which means you need a
>camber jig and toe plates and as accurate an electronic level as you an
>afford.
>
>Anyway, I'm DIFFERENT (which means we are different).
>You don't enjoy changing tires, I do.
>You think it's dangerous to not go to a mechanic, I think they skip steps.

I'm a (retired) mechanic - whatch what you say -----

Arlen Holder

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Jul 29, 2018, 12:11:11 AM7/29/18

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On 28 Jul 2018 20:27:03 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> It lets you know if something is bent - and if it is you'll be
> chasing your tail for a LONG time trying to find out why the car won't
> run straight hands off - - - -

I completely understand.
The "assumption" is that it's like a doctor's physical, of sorts.

It's more preventative medicine than corrective in that if your car has
been in an accident, that's out of the scope of what I'm going to
implement.

The assumption is the car has not been in an accident and it has been fully
"aligned" at some point in the reasonable past where the history is known
to you.

Under those circumstances, checking the things you can adjust is what I'm
speaking about.

It's a philosophical thing, where if you have money to waste, go have a
blast getting an alignment every month. But if you want to be pragmatic,
then ensure the car is aligned properly, and then periodically check the
caster, camber and toe, oh, say, every month or three.

It's a probability thing.
Can the entropy be such that the entire frame will suddenly bend on you?
Yup. There's a one in a trillion trillion trillion chance that this will
happen. (this is how entropy works, by the way)

But we're talking normal probabilities here.
Not accidents.

It's a *big* distinction.

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Jul 29, 2018, 2:34:06 AM7/29/18

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On 07/28/2018 11:52 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> Not an automatic at all - the infamous "fluid drive" or "Hy-Drive"
> transmissin.

Yeah but Chrysler was hoping nobody would notice. Not that the
Powerslide was any prize either. I don't even want to think obout some
of the new trannies with more speeds than an English bicycle.