Pulling Class discussion
Lance Berg
Sinpped out of
Subject:
Re: Least Played Classes
Date:
Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:56:00 GMT
From:
Mason Barge <mason...@my-deja.com>
Organization:
Deja.com - Before you buy.
Newsgroups:
alt.games.everquest
References:
1 , 2 , 3
And I have completely omitted pulling, because I'm just dealing with
the actual battle. But this is clearly a skill that can be vital (or
unimportant depending on the situation). The reason I mention it now,
is that mage/mage might be better than mage/warrior (you could have a
good argument on this one) EXCEPT that a mage is about the worst puller
in EQ.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
How is this? I pulled quite happily (even madly) with my
mage in Oasis for several levels, and people seemed to
be pleased with the results. I'd steadfastly avoided doing
so on the -oft publicized- theory espoused here, but when I
tried it, I found it quite functional and enjoyable.
I can see the the crowd control element is missing, so that
an enchanter or cleric (and probably druid and shaman) would
be better... except not to actually pull, just to set up the
pull. All the cleric needs is an additional aggro on the mobs (as if)
If you want the worst puller in the game, it is an enchanter
with a pet up.
As a mage, I used /pet guard here, then went out and positioned
myself with a line of fire and a strategic location designed not
to have the mob run close to other mobs, then cast a low level
DD to get its attention, turned and ran along my flight path (sometimes
complex, again to avoid ADDs) to overrun the groups position moving
thru the kill zone. As I approached the kill zone I'd time my /pet
attack button so the pet would meet the mob there. I'd run past, get
behind our position, execute a gradual U and take note of the situation.
With a good clean pull, my high firepower nuking would be unnecessary;
saving that for emergencies, I'd run right out to find the next target.
Continuous action, my normal contribution to battle (pet damage) intact
and my secondary function covered (prepare to Nuke in emergencies)
almost as well as my normal approach (stand, sic pet, one DD, sit and
med)
but I was busy and having fun; the group wasn't down a warrior (got
the basic tactic from a zany warrior puller)
Are you -sure- mages are the -worst- pullers?
Pente
Nicolas MONNET
· Are you -sure- mages are the -worst- pullers?
The problem in what you describe is that it does'nt address
caster MOBs, or even archers (such as centaurs in SK).
The other day I was pulling the centaur camp with a ranger,
and the pet was very annoying; I had to hit 'back off'
a thousand times to pull the thing safely out of the camp.
I did'nt let the Ranger pull (he was harmonying) because
in case things went wrong, like if a courser (level 30+)
came along, he had no escape strategy, as opposed to me
being able to FD / Shadow Step / Harmshield / Gate.
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"Lance Berg" <emp...@success.net> wrote in message
news:39ACEFCB...@success.net...
> Are you -sure- mages are the -worst- pullers?
>
> Pente
>
va...@my-deja.com
1) very poor ac and pet with limited taunt ability
(as a mage you really dont want to take hits, since they will
pretty much regularly hit for full and interrupt your spells. because
pet taunt is not great, it may be difficult for it to pull the mob off
of you)
2) if pet is in range, it will come as soon as you get hit, regardless
of your /guard command.
3) no ability to root/mez/harmony/fd additional mobs so all mobs will
end up being pulled simultaneously and the pet will not be able to
taunt them off of the caster (only taunts the targeted npc)
4) /pet back off does not work effectively in many cases
5) need for direct line of sight when pulling with 'bolt' type spells.
This may mean getting extra close to mobs, and getting hit, see item 2.
All in all, while it is possible to pull with a magician, they (by
their class limitations) are not very good at it.
-Valka/Xegony
In article <Q1br5.8737$K4.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ed Bradley
'Oh look, something blue wandering around!' followed by tagging and killing.
Pet classes are all very bad dungeon pullers because when 'master' takes a
hit the pet runs off to help which ,99% of the time, is a _very very very_
bad thing in dungeons.
Mtene <pixierancher@(Your Pants)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Q1br5.8737$K4.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Lance Berg
Nicolas MONNET wrote:
> What could I do but protest when I saw that Lance Berg wrote this:
>
> · Are you -sure- mages are the -worst- pullers?
>
> The problem in what you describe is that it does'nt address
> caster MOBs, or even archers (such as centaurs in SK).
>
Of course it does, are you unaware of the orc priests?
Hit caster from extreme range and move out of his return fire
range, he'll follow just as any other mob. Park pet back
-behind- the party, and the party back -behind- the kill
zone. Pull the caster up and engage him inside the kill zone.
Arranged right, the /pet attack key may not be needed at
all, if the caster has managed to get anything off. But the pet
won't come engage until you get inside his "hearing" range,
wheter because you have hit /pet attack or because he
suddenly realizes something is attacking -you-
>
> The other day I was pulling the centaur camp with a ranger,
> and the pet was very annoying; I had to hit 'back off'
> a thousand times to pull the thing safely out of the camp.
>
Thats what hotkeys are for. So mash the key a bunch while you
run, if you have to. Really only takes one /back off to erase
the defend response, its just that each time you get hit again
the defense response is reactivated... and there's a cycle
time between pet commands.
>
> I did'nt let the Ranger pull (he was harmonying) because
> in case things went wrong, like if a courser (level 30+)
> came along, he had no escape strategy, as opposed to me
> being able to FD / Shadow Step / Harmshield / Gate.
>
Now there's an improvement over a mage; we indeed have
little in the way of escape strategy in the case of a bad
overpull: pet sacrifice while I gate is most useful if there is
only one in the pull. Fortunately, the pull strategy I outline
does involve running straight thru my pet and the rest of my
group; the well know train peel off effect works in my
favor here. With SOW on (I know, we can't always have this)
escape merely consists of continuing to run... or even veering
off from the plan -before- contact with the group and training
to zone.
For my plan, best to have lots of open room, a SoW, and
Breeze. can do without any of the above, but they are ideal.
Pulling in a dungeon... well, there things get more problematic.
Pente
Lance Berg
Mtene wrote:
> Because high level mobs will kill your mage Fast.
RTM mobs in the teens, no. Could it be true in the
over 30 ranges? Hey, don't ask me. Played a
mage up to 27, another up to 19, the latter pulled
happily from 15 to 19, in Oasis and E Karana. Death
very rare, in fact, died more often when other
people were pulling.
Doesn't make the blanket statement "a mage is about
the worst puller in EQ." true. At best, we could make
a case for "a mage is about the worst puller at high
levels in EQ" and I'd still like to see them compared
to say an enchanter. Or heck, a cleric (the two classes
I've played most recently)
Pente
Lance Berg
va...@my-deja.com wrote:
> The major issues would be IMO
>
> 1) very poor ac and pet with limited taunt ability
> (as a mage you really dont want to take hits, since they will
> pretty much regularly hit for full and interrupt your spells. because
> pet taunt is not great, it may be difficult for it to pull the mob off
> of you)
>
"Getting hit is not in my job description." I actually had that
on a social key for a while. Pulling, it did happen occaisionally...
pilot error, suprise pop in the run home line, that sort of thing.
I actually stopped using my other social key "don't buff me,
buff my pet, unless its sow or breeze"
As for pets with limited taunt... the pets with -good- taunt
are called Warriors. Try summoning one using /ooc group needs
a tank.
Pet is a -secondary- tank, dedicated to mage protection, and
its often helpful to have that, but it isn't the only thing in the party
that should be trying to engage the incoming mob.
>
> 2) if pet is in range, it will come as soon as you get hit, regardless
> of your /guard command.
>
Yes, this is why the -location- of the guard spot is important, well
back behind the killing zone, behind the party, even. Put the edge
of its hearing range at the leading edge of the killing zone, and it
will come out and meet the incoming mob dead center in that
same kill zone. Being hit merely makes the /pet attack button
redundant.
>
> 3) no ability to root/mez/harmony/fd additional mobs so all mobs will
> end up being pulled simultaneously and the pet will not be able to
> taunt them off of the caster (only taunts the targeted npc)
>
That is a seperate job. Warriors can't do it either. Staying at max range,
running the instant the spell goes off so you are no longer in range
at all, and pulling to the group... which hopefully includes some crowd
control. In fact, I'd think being puller and crowd control both would
be problematic, as you'd be exposing yourself to the full force of
the overpull while trying to reduce the crowd; better to have them chasing
the mage, I'd think.
>
> 4) /pet back off does not work effectively in many cases
>
If you are in hearing range, have a hotkey, and understand what
is really going on, it works fairly well. Besides, this shouldn't
enter in to the actual pull, only at worst to crowd control in
an overpull; one answer is for everyone to assist the pet, given
that he's somewhat capricious about his choice of target. I've
done this with enchanter pets (talk about capricious) at any rate;
not the best approach if a caster mob is in the mix.
Another thought; mashing the /pet attack key on the -intended- target
often gets the pet to engage correctly even though the defense
effect has been engaged as well; as long as the pet has not gotten
into actual melee with the "wrong" target.
>
> 5) need for direct line of sight when pulling with 'bolt' type spells.
> This may mean getting extra close to mobs, and getting hit, see item 2.
>
Bolt type spells? You know, every spell user has spells that aren't
particularly useful. Bolt is of marginal utility, and certainly would
not be in the arsenal if LOS concerns are really an issue for the
pull. Shock of Blades is a personal favorite, and it will hit mobs
on the other side of a hill! LOS is nice though so you can be more
sure there isn't anything standing near your target that can turn
into an overpull. I actually used bolt spells to pull at times where
the -increased- range of the spell came in handy... I'd be nuts
to use it if doing so made it necessary to get -closer- to a mob.
Note also that when pulling, damage isn't even the issue; I pulled
happily with a first level spell, because the idea wasn't to do
any actual damage, it was to get the mob chasing me. Using the
low level spell meant using less mana; without a breeze, mana
was the only thing preventing me from doing full time
continuous pull 24/7. With breeze and using a first level spell,
my mana regen was high enough while running around that I
never was more than half a bub low. -without- breeze, there
were occaisional breaks for folks to sell while I medded
back up.
>
> All in all, while it is possible to pull with a magician, they (by
> their class limitations) are not very good at it.
>
> -Valka/Xegony
I'll grant you there are those better at it... what I question
is the statement that they are the -worst- at it. A statement
made often IG, btw, not just in the passage I quoted to
start the thread.
Pente
Lance Berg
Ed Bradley wrote:
> 'Pulling' outdoors doesnt really count as outdoor hunting generally involves
> 'Oh look, something blue wandering around!' followed by tagging and killing.
> Pet classes are all very bad dungeon pullers because when 'master' takes a
> hit the pet runs off to help which ,99% of the time, is a _very very very_
> bad thing in dungeons.
So half the game doesn't count. I suppose that levels under 30 don't
count either. Now we are generalizing "mages are the "worst" pullers
overall because they have trouble in 25% of cases...
Pet runs off to join only if in hearing range, and if in hearing
range, pet listens to /pet back off. Park pet carefully and
hotkey mash back off and he should do no more than drift into
the kill zone for you. Maybe... I've never tried it, so I'm
talking thru my hat.
And that is an aside; enchanter pets don't listen -at all-
Surely an enchanter with a pet up would be worse than
a mage with one?
How about this for a shocker... what if the mage didn't
have a pet up at all? He's a slightly wimpy wizzard now,
and can summon a pet once the battle proper begins
if that seems prudent.
I can come up with these crazy ideas all day long
Pente
Mtene
chopped off 2 bubbles of health before I could even move, and the froglock
king in lower guk isn't that strong of a mob. Pulling outdoors it really
does not matter which class pulls as long as you have jboots of sow. Don't
get so ignorant of what tanks do to think you can function without them.
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"Lance Berg" <emp...@success.net> wrote in message
news:39AD66EB...@success.net...
Jeremy Music
>
>
>Mtene wrote:
>
>> Because high level mobs will kill your mage Fast.
>
>RTM mobs in the teens, no. Could it be true in the
>over 30 ranges? Hey, don't ask me. Played a
>mage up to 27, another up to 19, the latter pulled
>happily from 15 to 19, in Oasis and E Karana. Death
>very rare, in fact, died more often when other
>people were pulling.
>
>Doesn't make the blanket statement "a mage is about
>the worst puller in EQ." true. At best, we could make
>a case for "a mage is about the worst puller at high
>levels in EQ" and I'd still like to see them compared
>to say an enchanter. Or heck, a cleric (the two classes
>I've played most recently)
I play a magician that has pulled an awful lot outdoors, even with warriors
in the party, because outdoors with levitate and Jboots I'm generally a
better puller (rangers' tracking, snare and harmony make them probably the
best outdoor puller). I have also pulled in Lower Guk (pulled and broke
King, pulled to Lord and FG camps, etc.). I didn't try pulling in Lower Guk
until I was 49 though, because before then I just got hit far too hard to be
a good puller. Does no good to be the puller if you don't make it back
alive. And 49 is approaching the end of your Lower Guk days. I have pulled
in Sol B, Chardok, Sebilis, The Hole, and my personal favorite, Fear.
Don't take this to mean that magicians are good pullers though. I'm just
that good. :)
J
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Lance Berg
Mtene wrote:
> The froglock king double attacks for 140, and probably well over 5k hp. He
> chopped off 2 bubbles of health before I could even move, and the froglock
> king in lower guk isn't that strong of a mob. Pulling outdoors it really
> does not matter which class pulls as long as you have jboots of sow. Don't
> get so ignorant of what tanks do to think you can function without them.
A) I've certainly functioned without them many times.
B) Much better with.
C) Mages are -never- without a tank... although pets are not very good
tanks, and a real one is advised.
C) The amount of damage a mob does is not interesting if it
never hits you.
D) Given that you say it doesn't matter which class pulls, this seque
to thinking I can function without a tank makes little sense.
E) I put it to you that an enchanter with an animation up is a worse
puller outdoors than any other class
F) E disproves your statement that it does not matter which class pulls
G) More to the point, it disproves the original statement that
-mages- are the worst pullers
Pente
XBiGGiO7x
cut the chance of this happening waaaaay down. How about when a puller brings
in something dont hit ti with a powerful nuke right from the start, let your
pet beat on it with the other meleers, then when a decent amount of damage has
been dealt by other things whip out a big one, you wont get aggrod on because
the other people are the primary damagers