*->Percieved<-* Class Imbalances
Jack Benny
classes with the other ones.
Personally I'd like to say a few things regarding classes.
In a traditional RPG sense all classes have never been on par with the
other classes. For example the mage, when presented with Melee combat
has always been at risk of death.
I'd just like to point out that while your class may not be able to
stand toe to toe with the same monster a warrior at the same level can
handle, you do have *major* advantages over the warrior.
Roleplaying different classes is not about being equal. It's about
using the skills and talents that not all the other classes have. If
you use a rogue character to do strictly melee fighting, going toe to
toe every time you will be outclassed. Likewise with the mage, etc.
If you want a character to do that then you need to research the
characters abilities and strengths so that they are in line with your
own personal goals.
Dont be dissapointed when you cant do something another class can do at
the same level.. instead look at what you can do that they cannot and
use that ability.
That's what its about.
Jack
K. Laisathit
Jack Benny <spammail@?swbell?.net> wrote:
>
>Roleplaying different classes is not about being equal. It's about
>using the skills and talents that not all the other classes have. If
>you use a rogue character to do strictly melee fighting, going toe to
>toe every time you will be outclassed. Likewise with the mage, etc.
That's an over-simplification of the perceived class imbalance.
Given that classes possess diffirent abilities, the question is,
do any of these abilities permit them to be effective in
certain situation?
Take rogue for instance. The imbalance doesn't come from the
fact that rogue is a weak warrior alone. It's a combination of
various shortcomings. Sneak doesn't work very effectively
in almost all circumstances. There are no traps to disarm
or chests to pick. Backstabbing is powerful, but mostly
useless under most circumstances. The rogue gets one chance
of backstabbing critter, after which point, he's back at
being a weak warrior.
Later...
Zur
says...
Well, the rogue is a bit og an exception. For the most part, I agree
completely with Jack. But in EQ, rogues are like wizards that haven't had
thier spell casting ability implemented yet, imho...
..
Inter
be able to outdo the fighting classes. They can use a staff that does just
as much damage as swords. and they can blast a spell that does more damage
then anything. And with the large amount of people playing its not like a
wizard is going to walk into an area where others are not hunting. I think
the number of people and the fact that so many people are camped in the
same areas tend to take away the fact that a wiz might find himself in
combat he cant handle. As it is he just sits back waits for a fighter to
engage then the wiz blasts the creature taking the kill.
If there were only half the number of people in the world server then
perhapse there would be places that other people are not at and things
would not happen this way.
Jack Benny wrote:
> I've been seeing alot of propositions lately to "Balance" or tweak
> classes with the other ones.
>
> Personally I'd like to say a few things regarding classes.
>
> In a traditional RPG sense all classes have never been on par with the
> other classes. For example the mage, when presented with Melee combat
> has always been at risk of death.
>
> I'd just like to point out that while your class may not be able to
> stand toe to toe with the same monster a warrior at the same level can
> handle, you do have *major* advantages over the warrior.
>
> Roleplaying different classes is not about being equal. It's about
> using the skills and talents that not all the other classes have. If
> you use a rogue character to do strictly melee fighting, going toe to
> toe every time you will be outclassed. Likewise with the mage, etc.
>
Charles B. Naumann
Balance is important. It may not be the be-all-end-all, but
it is important. Several classes seems partly broken. In
some ways, this is not a balance issue, but a broken class
issue. I have the most experince in playing warriors, and
I have commented frequently on the warriors short comings.
One point is that it takes a warrior so blooming long to
regain hit points. This really had nothing to do with class
balance, it is just plain boring. I would not wish this
on any class. Yes, in traditional P&P roleplaying it took
days to regenerate hps. However, 'camping' was possible.
I don't know a single DM who told the party 'OK, sit here
for an hour while your character regenerates.' But, some
elements of P&P rpg's can be used, some cannot and should not.
Personally, I would like to see every class with a strong
unique skill that was not shared with other classes. It
would not matter if this unique skills were all 'balanced'
but they should all be fun and useful.
Charles Naumann
JubJub McRae
wrote:
>I've been seeing alot of propositions lately to "Balance" or tweak
>classes with the other ones.
>
>Personally I'd like to say a few things regarding classes.
>
>In a traditional RPG sense all classes have never been on par with the
>other classes. For example the mage, when presented with Melee combat
>has always been at risk of death.
>
>I'd just like to point out that while your class may not be able to
>stand toe to toe with the same monster a warrior at the same level can
>handle, you do have *major* advantages over the warrior.
>
>Roleplaying different classes is not about being equal. It's about
>using the skills and talents that not all the other classes have. If
>you use a rogue character to do strictly melee fighting, going toe to
>toe every time you will be outclassed. Likewise with the mage, etc.
>
>If you want a character to do that then you need to research the
>characters abilities and strengths so that they are in line with your
>own personal goals.
>
>Dont be dissapointed when you cant do something another class can do at
>the same level.. instead look at what you can do that they cannot and
>use that ability.
>
>That's what its about.
>
>Jack
Exactly - I think the way the classes in various combinations
compliment eachother is an incredible part of the game - more than
making up for any classes shortcomings. Cept enchanters and their
always-resisted spells..
Guardian23
Fighters out there, as soon as they notice that a wizard is hitting their
critter need to just stop attacking and get out of the way!! The creature
will start attacking the wizard that is casting on it, and he will either:
A) have to slug it out with the critter, and "semi" earn his kill, (and he
will have to heal)
B) Turn tail immediately and try and run for it maybe ending up with
C) Die screaming for help
The AI in the game is pretty good, but Our Intelligence is better.
<story>
I still have a hard time hitting consistently, so I tend to fight low to
medium Blues most of the time solo. I just had started to fight a Crocodile
and a monk ran up and started hitting on it. Instead of running through my
mana to get ahead of him, I just stopped attacking and stepped back.
a crocodile hits xxx for 30 points of damage!
a crocodile hits xxx for 20 points of damage!
a crocodile hits xxx for 25 points of damage!
Well, needless to say, he ran off.
I watched him go and grabbed another, a few minutes later, that croc came
back not very hurt to attack me, which means the guy died or zoned. Either
way, point made.
If someone is using you as a sheild, just step aside and let them know
exactly what kind of creature they are fighting. If they want it so bad,
let them have it!
Dorian
19th lvl High Elf Cleric
Povar
Inter wrote in message <371E92D4...@erols.com>...
>I think rather the opposite is in place. The wizards and casters seem to
>be able to outdo the fighting classes. They can use a staff that does just
>as much damage as swords. and they can blast a spell that does more damage
>then anything. And with the large amount of people playing its not like a
>wizard is going to walk into an area where others are not hunting. I think
>the number of people and the fact that so many people are camped in the
>same areas tend to take away the fact that a wiz might find himself in
>combat he cant handle. As it is he just sits back waits for a fighter to
>engage then the wiz blasts the creature taking the kill.
>
>If there were only half the number of people in the world server then
>perhapse there would be places that other people are not at and things
>would not happen this way.
>
Rob Illing
> If someone is using you as a sheild, just step aside and let them know
> exactly what kind of creature they are fighting. If they want it so bad,
> let them have it!
I would add that from time to time, I have jumped into a fight for only one or
two hits, just to give the other player help in getting the upper hand. If
people were to step aside like that, I think I'd stop helping people at all...
ever... even if they asked for help. You just wouldn't know who you could
trust.
Use your common sense in dealing with a situation like this.
Cheers,
Rob
Chip Paul
>
> Exactly - I think the way the classes in various combinations
> compliment eachother is an incredible part of the game - more than
> making up for any classes shortcomings. Cept enchanters and their
> always-resisted spells..
I think they make our spells easily resisted just to justify
the tashan spell. None of the mages/wizards I've ever partied with
have ever had a problem with resistance.
On another note. I think teh classes would be fair if they just
implemented the abilities they advertised. Rogues should have
locks to pick in dungeons, or maybe rob the royal vault. And I
would like the ability to make enchanted weapons and armor like
the manual says I can, which would offset my poor combat spells.
Kaela - Enchanter on Tunare
Paul Bernat
Taken from Words of enchantment board with apologies to Borealis and
math-challenged readers
The math of partial vs. full resist
by Borealis
If you average out the damage from partial resists and full resist
there is actually a fairly significant disparity. Against a creature
with a 40% resistance an enchanter does 60% of their potential damage.
A similar wizard will typically do 80% of their damage in partial
resists. With tashan an enchanter will do between 65-75% of their
damage which doesn't sound so bad.
The problem lies in the fact that enchanters are going against resist
vs. magic where most other classes do damage that is
fire/cold/disease/poison based. The resist vs. magic is high for all
monsters because they don't want them to be easy to root/charm/whirl
them continuously. The resists for fire and cold are usually much
lower than resists for magical for most monsters. Somebody with a
better head for numbers than I did the math
[snip]
and calculated that using fire/cold based attacks vs. magic attacks,
an enchanter would not break even with a wizard unless the % chance
for a full resist was approximately 8%. Should we break even with
wizards? That I don't know.
Now, on the surface even not breaking even doesn't sound so bad. One
of the problems is that we often suffer more than 1 full resist in a
combat (this is even with /con white/blue MOBs). A wizard that has 2
spells resisted 60% for, say, a 70 point spell still does 56 points of
damage. An enchanter that has two spells resisted does zero damage.
For this reason, although the "average" case is not that bad, we have
far more potential for complete disaster than many other classes. A
wizard that suffers bad resists can still contribute to a party, an
enchanter that has bad resists is putting on a pretty lightshow.
This problem is made more marked against the more difficult /con
creatures as many have stated here. Note that enchanters also have the
2nd or 3rd worst mana:damage ratio on top of these problems, so the
full resists are considerably more painful a loss as a % of your total
mana pool compared to wizard/mage/druid/necro.
[snip]
Paul Bernat
e-mail work: pz.b...@ptl-uk.com
home: pbe...@ikroh.u-net.net
Wayne Sheppard
Charles B. Naumann wrote in message <$ZaLWLIj#GA....@pet.hiwaay.net>...
>
> I have the most experince in playing warriors, and
>I have commented frequently on the warriors short comings.
>One point is that it takes a warrior so blooming long to
>regain hit points.
Just ask the cleric-type that you are grouped with to heal you. Your HPs
will go up much faster....
...unless you are trying to solo. Warriors are one of the worst solo
classes in EQ. (Maybe rogues?) If you really want to play a warrior, find
a cleric to party with. Your waits will only get longer at higher levels.
Wayne
K. Laisathit
>
>I think they make our spells easily resisted just to justify
>the tashan spell. None of the mages/wizards I've ever partied with
>have ever had a problem with resistance.
Not really. The culprit is that most enchanters' spells
are checked against magic resistance. For some reason,
most critters have better magic resistance than, say, fire,
ice, or electric. Another problem is that, most other
mages' offensive spells aren't all-or-nothing. Wizards
will do some damage even if their spells are resisted (doing
fractional damage).
Ask Wizards who routinely fight yellow and red. Ask them to note
how much damage they are doing. Now, compared that to the
damage they are dealing against blue and white. My Druid
can expect Ignite to do half or less damage against
yellow half the time. Against white and below, the Ignite
damage is mostly maxed with half damage here and there.
Enchanters' spell are magic based in addition to being
all-or-nothing variety. Tashan was later added because of the
excessive monster resistance to enchanters' spells. It's no
quite enough, IMHO, but it's still something.
Later...
John P. Van Smith
Inter wrote in message <371E92D4...@erols.com>...
>I think rather the opposite is in place. The wizards and casters seem to
>be able to outdo the fighting classes. They can use a staff that does just
Well wait til lvl 20 all figter classes should do very well. I do not see kill stealing as
a problem I think at most one kill per day is even in quesion and in honesty at this point
it happens to me only once every few days. Unlike most RPG spell casters get a good jump
since everyone is pretty equal at melee the first few lvls, but quickly the tables turn as
warrior classes get multi attacks and do huge amount per every round.
Inarion
level 8 and the 9 paladin, and frankly the rogue not only took most of the
abuse, but generally gave most of the damage. He took advantage of backstab
to the fullest. When the crit would turn on him (after he backstabbed it for
26 hps or so) I would taunt the crit back on me, giving him the opportunity
to backstab again. Having played with him, I no longer think of rogues as
wimps. I feel that, perhaps, more skill is required to play that chr to its
fullest.
Granted, there are no locked chests (that we have seen yet) but I have found
a locked door in befallen. Undoubtedly there will be more.....
K. Laisathit wrote in message <7fll6d$u2u$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>...
>In article <asrT2.2530$gI3....@typhoon01.swbell.net>,
>Jack Benny <spammail@?swbell?.net> wrote:
>>
>>Roleplaying different classes is not about being equal. It's about
>>using the skills and talents that not all the other classes have. If
>>you use a rogue character to do strictly melee fighting, going toe to
>>toe every time you will be outclassed. Likewise with the mage, etc.
>
>That's an over-simplification of the perceived class imbalance.
>Given that classes possess diffirent abilities, the question is,
>do any of these abilities permit them to be effective in
>certain situation?
>
>Take rogue for instance. The imbalance doesn't come from the
>fact that rogue is a weak warrior alone. It's a combination of
>various shortcomings. Sneak doesn't work very effectively
>in almost all circumstances. There are no traps to disarm
>or chests to pick. Backstabbing is powerful, but mostly
>useless under most circumstances. The rogue gets one chance
>of backstabbing critter, after which point, he's back at
>being a weak warrior.
>
>Later...
Stopped Clock
have still had several instances of having my spells resisted by
white/blue MOBs. It's getting pretty embarrassing, when I waste half
of my mana making a nice spell animations, and causing no damage at
all.
--
Stopped Clock stoppe...@hotmail.com
"You talk better than you fool." -- Homer Simpson
Paul Bernat wrote in message <371f3c88...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>>I think they make our spells easily resisted just to justify
>>the tashan spell. None of the mages/wizards I've ever partied with
>>have ever had a problem with resistance.
>>
Guru
so....And yes, Being resisted sucks....Especialy when Npcs Resist your Charm
Spell...because for SOME reason, the charm spell REALLY pisses them off :)
Guru of Veeshan
Stopped Clock <stoppe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37227...@news3.paonline.com...