EQ needs more traps and locks
blue girl with white hair and red eyes
spell component for KEI that can only be found in locked chests?
lol...ever seen a rogue get begged by a newb for anything other than
plat or items. Groups would be way more careful charging into a
dungeon if the place were trapped with stuff that would kill you
otherwise. Also, make some valuable no-drop stuff that can only be
aquired via pickpocket. thats all, we just need some stuff to make
rogues valuable in the D&D tradition of what they do.
-Martin
think they need any enhancements in that department whatsoever.
As for more traps.. well in SSRA (high end luclin raiding zone) there are a
lot of traps in the areas of the big named mobs, and at least 1 doorway
thats opened by a rogue.
Theres a lot of lower level zones that have traps/locked doors already..
-m
jaZZmanian Devil
>
> I think EQ needs more trapped places and locks to pick. Groups would
> dungeon if the place were trapped with stuff that would kill you
> otherwise.
Go to Dragon Necropolis. Without a rogue, it's "an adventure".
City of Mist for Jade reavers, required in the druid/ranger epics. It
*can* be sort of done without a rogue if you use the wizzy
gravitysploit, but not easily. More examples are available. Rogues are
one of the most desirable classes, and aside from insane damage, their
special skills are part of the reason.
--
jaZZ md
*******
"An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a
sheep."
-- Arab proverb
Dream King
Agreed. You don't want to make a certain class required for everything.
That's what you'd need if every zone had traps and locks. Group
flexibility is a good thing. I don't want to be limit the possible zone
choices that day just because there are no rogues about.
slapfish
blue girl with white hair and red eyes <nyarrl...@antisocial.com> wrote
in message news:d85db693.02090...@posting.google.com...
I played a rogue to 40th and then got bored with her. It was just too
difficult to play because she was so dependent on groups. Her playability
is really limited to combat, and outside of that there is just nothing for
her to do. Perhaps at higher levels rogues are sought after, but below 40 no
one really understands their usefullness. Rogues need to be made more
soloable (maybe if poisons were fixed) and more useful outside of combat.
Adding more traps and locks would be great. There should be other ways
around them just as there are ways to do without gates/ports/clarity/sow,
but having a rogue would make it easier.
Now I'm playing a shaman and I love it because when there are no groups
around I still have plenty to do. I can solo, I can explore (of course I
can explore with my rogue, but it's much easier and safer with my shaman) or
buff newbies or help out friends. My poor rogue even sucked at tradeskills
because of low INT.
That being said, I was thinking of starting a Rouge. Rouges are always in
great demand, especially among the pale skinned races. :)
blue girl with white hair and red eyes
> rogues are already one of the most highly desired classes in EQ
at what level? 60? i see most of the people here refer to the 60th end
game encounters routinely as if everyone in the game is already 60th.
ok....so befallen has a locked door. what else?
>... I don't
> think they need any enhancements in that department whatsoever.
>
apart from not even being able to play them int he role of a rogue
because verants "vision" limits it to backstabbing and end game 60th
level lockpicker.
> As for more traps.. well in SSRA (high end luclin raiding zone)
thats what im talking about....not everyone is in SSRA. why not just
make all players 60th with the next patch and i can stop my bitching.
> there are a
> lot of traps in the areas of the big named mobs, and at least 1 doorway
> thats opened by a rogue.
>
> Theres a lot of lower level zones that have traps/locked doors already..
and these are? befallen? ok...im not the most traveled player but i
also know of a trap in TOFS off to the side that someone has to
blunder into. also a spore trap in paludal. but apart from that when
you mention ZONES are you referring strictly to some special dungeons?
apart from sebilis, howling stones, ssra and some other high level
stuff where are the traps and locks that prevent access without a
rogue? (also...we couldnt have survived D&D without the trusty Knock
spell. in EQ they could make it a looooong recast time and a lot of
mana usage for groups without a rogue)
To say that rogues are the most desirable classes is to be someone in
a guild with ready made groups, someone getting pleveled or an uber
twink to get to the levels where a rogue IS necessary. from levels 1
to 59 that just isnt true. I have one of every class there is.....some
of them in the 50s and most in the 20s and 30s. I continually see
rogues just give up after oocing for a group and my rogue has a hard
enough time as well. it isnt a bad thing to make classes more
versatile at lower levels too. rogues need to be more than a
backstabber (monk damage without FD)
Tim Smith
> Now I'm playing a shaman and I love it because when there are no groups
> around I still have plenty to do. I can solo, I can explore (of course I
> can explore with my rogue, but it's much easier and safer with my shaman)
> or buff newbies or help out friends. My poor rogue even sucked at
> tradeskills
Did you forget about hide/sneak? Your Rogue can explore places solo with
almost no risk that your Shaman would need a major raid force to visit.
--Tim Smith
ryouseika
reply_i...@mouse-potato.com says...
The interesting thing is, most people don't seem to know this. Can't
tell you how many times I've said "brt, dragging corpse through the
<high level nasties that killed me when I was stupid and ran the wrong
way> camp" and gotten "they're too high level and they'll see through
sneak/hide, let's find a necro to get your corpse."
--
Ryou (pfft)
Taellaar ~ 35 DE Rogue (pretty) ~ Erollisi Marr
Novasina ~ 13 DE Necro (cute) ~ Erollisi Marr
Mark A. Rimer
wrote in message news:d85db693.02090...@posting.google.com...
> spell component for KEI that can only be found in locked chests?
> lol...ever seen a rogue get begged by a newb for anything other than
> plat or items.
Ditto warriors and monks, as well as paladins and SK's for
the most part. Rangers >30 are cursed with SoW and also
have some damage shields, and still get bugged by the d00ds
that "need" SoW to level...
At the same time I believe I'm on record from 3 years ago asking
for occasional special loot to drop...loot that is in a locked case
that can only be picked by a bard (sometimes, low skill) or a rogue.
It would make a lot more sense to have an Ancient spell drop in
a locked spellbook that you wouldn't want to risk giving to a level
20 twink, but would to your level 60 friend with 210 skill and
mechanical lockpicks. Your higher level friend has a much lower
chance of setting off the AoE deathtouch than the bard....;-)
I think that several of these would be level appropriate, such as
gems dropping from the bandits in Paludal (they ARE underground)
and dwarves in Crystal Caverns occasionally being dropped in a
locked chest with some coin and interesting stuff ("wow...Khalshazar
came out of Fippy Darkpaw's secret stash!!!"). It just makes for
a bit more interesting game, and it gives bards and rogues something
class-related that doesn't deal directly with combat combat combat.
>Groups would be way more careful charging into a
> dungeon if the place were trapped with stuff that would kill you
> otherwise.
<cough> Dragon Necropolis <cough>
>Also, make some valuable no-drop stuff that can only be
> aquired via pickpocket. thats all, we just need some stuff to make
> rogues valuable in the D&D tradition of what they do.
While I do agree somewhat, I do think that this would cause a
bit of whining by other classes. Unless the gear was rogue
specific, or could ONLY be gotten by pickpocket and was nodrop,
this could lead to folks bitching until a loot-type message about
what was pickpocketed was implemented. "He might pp a fungus
patch vest!!!" Back when we started doing Air, I'd pickpocketed
enough gems to pay for coffins on our first wipeout. For the whole
raid. And it didn't matter, because it was a guild raid and it was
all going to guild coffers anyways. But I'll have to admit that even
I might be close-mouthed on a non-guild raid if I "found" a Fungi or
a Flayed Barbarian Mask...
Mark A. Rimer
wrote in message news:d85db693.02090...@posting.google.com...
news:<GXYc9.1252$sy.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>...
> > rogues are already one of the most highly desired classes in EQ
>
> at what level? 60? i see most of the people here refer to the 60th end
> game encounters routinely as if everyone in the game is already 60th.
> ok....so befallen has a locked door. what else?
Yes, 50+. Some of the rogues' best features don't come about until
after 50, and I'd dare say after 55 (or 59...duelist r0xx0rs ;-) ). Not
much
different pre-50 in a ranger and a rogue, although the ranger brings
some utility spells as well. The rogue can hide through a party wipeout
if he's not on the hate list. Same for wizards, though...pre-50 they have
a hard time finding a group, although not as hard as it was pre-wizzy-
snare. Both classes are damage monsters, but that's actually a pretty
narrow specialization to focus on for 50 levels.
The 50+ game for rogues is the reward for sticking it out that long. As
a bonus, since you HAVE to group as a rogue (and lots are pickup groups),
you end up getting known on the server and getting invited to all sorts
of things...like being the only level 48 on a Trak raid because your
friends'
mostly 55+ guild is smacking him down that night and you happen to be
on. It happens more from friendship and being known as a fun-person
than from "I'm level 20 with a Fungi and Jade Maces...I p0wn Oasis!!!"
> >... I don't
> > think they need any enhancements in that department whatsoever.
> >
> apart from not even being able to play them int he role of a rogue
> because verants "vision" limits it to backstabbing and end game 60th
> level lockpicker.
That's been my biggest beef with the rogue class since day one (ok, maybe
like
day 30...my first time through, day one was spent not getting out much past
the huts in Misty Thicket..."wall, what wall? HOLY SHIT! That guy's dagger
was 6/23 and was +to DEX!!!"
VI screwed up the implementation of the rogue class. Pre-kunark, it
was possible to know by name/sight all 10 of the other 40+ rogues on
a server. There were SERIOUS problems, but even during that time
many rogues just wanted to be a little more roguish...with quests that
invovled picking locks or traps, and pickpocketing meanies (or good
guys, for that matter). Evade and sneak/hide went a LONG way
towards making the class playable by the masses instead of the weirdoes
(<----me), and while the rogue anti-twink bias STILL has some adherants
(ask Ryou what I think about her rogue making it to 35 as a non-twink.
Seriously, ask her.), lots of mid-range and end-game content is easier
with a rogue assassinating the lawn trash to get to the good stuff (unless
the lawn trash is red to a level 60, at which point the rogue cries for
a defensive warrior while he hides).
VI screwed up the implementation of the rogue class, mainly putting it
in EQ because, well, RPG's always have rogues or scouts. Living up to
folklore, novels, and pen/paper RPG's would be tough, though, simply
because with a poison skill of 250 I should be the BEST FUCKING SOLO
PLAYER EVER. I mean, I can create poisons out of goblin poop. That
should be an instant 32k for any mob. Rogues are supposed to be
lone wolves, not constantly in need of protection. I don't want to just
sneak past those dogs in Chardok...I want to poison some meat and
have them die choking before I saunter past. I want to sneak through
the Queen's protection and backstab her with Inferno Blood, watching her
burn up from the inside as I loot her. Then sneak back out through the
turmoil and kick back some beer in Rivervale (where the only good beer
is made...dwarven beer suxxors ;-) ).
Lendel Deeppockets is God.
> > As for more traps.. well in SSRA (high end luclin raiding zone)
>
> thats what im talking about....not everyone is in SSRA. why not just
> make all players 60th with the next patch and i can stop my bitching.
Well, simply because some of the folks with real exposure to rogues
who have stayed going with the class DO see how they're useful at
higher levels. Meemers probably hasn't seen Unrest in 3 years...
;-)
> > there are a
> > lot of traps in the areas of the big named mobs, and at least 1 doorway
> > thats opened by a rogue.
> >
> > Theres a lot of lower level zones that have traps/locked doors already..
>
> and these are? befallen? ok...im not the most traveled player but i
> also know of a trap in TOFS off to the side that someone has to
> blunder into. also a spore trap in paludal. but apart from that when
> you mention ZONES are you referring strictly to some special dungeons?
> apart from sebilis, howling stones, ssra and some other high level
> stuff where are the traps and locks that prevent access without a
> rogue? (also...we couldnt have survived D&D without the trusty Knock
> spell. in EQ they could make it a looooong recast time and a lot of
> mana usage for groups without a rogue)
I agree. I think that many of the key-only locks SHOULD be pickable.
Either fight through ToFS and get all the keys, or bring a rogue (or two)
along. Open up that door in Highkeep and chat with a skeleton. Panty
raid on Mistmoore!!!
> To say that rogues are the most desirable classes is to be someone in
> a guild with ready made groups, someone getting pleveled or an uber
> twink to get to the levels where a rogue IS necessary. from levels 1
> to 59 that just isnt true. I have one of every class there is.....some
> of them in the 50s and most in the 20s and 30s. I continually see
> rogues just give up after oocing for a group and my rogue has a hard
> enough time as well. it isnt a bad thing to make classes more
> versatile at lower levels too. rogues need to be more than a
> backstabber (monk damage without FD)
If the rogues can't stick it out through their 30s, I'm glad. It's sort of
like
a cleric in Ssra bitching because he wants to melee some. As you
level with every class, your role becomes more sharply defined. If you
want to take on AoW with 40 warriors for melee, go ahead. I bet 2 warriors
and 20 monks/rogues would do a faster job, though...
-Martin
news:dre9nus54e3s2aqt6...@4ax.com...
> Agreed. You don't want to make a certain class required for everything.
> That's what you'd need if every zone had traps and locks. Group
> flexibility is a good thing. I don't want to be limit the possible zone
> choices that day just because there are no rogues about.
Sebilis and HS were probably the 2 main dungeons in old world EQ, HS
without a rogue is an absolute PITA, Sebilis without a rogue excludes you
from the most lucrative loot in the zone.
Having locked doors is always good, but there should be a "rogueless" method
too. I shouldnt be massively hindered in HS because I can't find a rogue
-m
-Martin
wrote in message news:d85db693.02090...@posting.google.com...
> game encounters routinely as if everyone in the game is already 60th.
> ok....so befallen has a locked door. what else?
50+ rogues are awesome. Wizards at high levels are too.
Pre-50 they both plain suck. Starting slowly and working to become the most
powerfull class isn't a bad thing IMO.. and the only way id agree that <50
rogues should be beefed up, is if rogues lose the double backstab ability at
55.
Lets see how many rogues go for that.
> apart from not even being able to play them int he role of a rogue
> because verants "vision" limits it to backstabbing and end game 60th
> level lockpicker.
Lock picker in the endgame (ssra), lock picker in the "upper levels"
(seb/hs), lock picker in the "early days" (befallen).. sorry, which range
did they exclude?
> thats what im talking about....not everyone is in SSRA. why not just
> make all players 60th with the next patch and i can stop my bitching.
And not everybody can find a rogue for their group. Most exp camps can be
done with a variation of classes (shaman for a cleric, bard/shaman for a
chanter, hybrid for a warrior etc).. locked doors and traps would DEMAND a
rogue in groups - and noway do I believe thats fair.
> To say that rogues are the most desirable classes is to be someone in
> a guild with ready made groups, someone getting pleveled or an uber
> twink to get to the levels where a rogue IS necessary. from levels 1
> to 59 that just isnt true.
The point is, NO class should be absolutely necessary EVER. Traps and
locked doors mean a rogue IS essential to the group, thats wrong imo. Sure
make it faster/easier to have a rogue there, but don't make the place
exclusive to rogue groups.
> I continually see rogues just give up after oocing for a group and my
rogue has
> a hard enough time as well.
Damn poor rogues! They struggle to find a group pre 50, even tho 50-60 they
WALK into pretty much whatever group they want.
My mage could occ till he was blue in the face for a group, it rarely came.
My mage had to struggle on and solo, and unlike rogues, my mage is STILL
undesired in 99% of 50-60 exp camps.
And I still remember the days in Sebilis where my monk would sit at the
zonein for 3+ hours with /lfg on.
> it isnt a bad thing to make classes more
> versatile at lower levels too. rogues need to be more than a
> backstabber (monk damage without FD)
I can agree with that, but rogues versatility should not come at the cost of
restrictive gaming to every other class and group.
-m
Lance Berg
-Martin wrote:
>
> > apart from not even being able to play them int he role of a rogue
> > because verants "vision" limits it to backstabbing and end game 60th
> > level lockpicker.
>
> Lock picker in the endgame (ssra), lock picker in the "upper levels"
> (seb/hs), lock picker in the "early days" (befallen).. sorry, which range
> did they exclude?
>
> > thats what im talking about....not everyone is in SSRA. why not just
> > make all players 60th with the next patch and i can stop my bitching.
>
> And not everybody can find a rogue for their group. Most exp camps can be
> done with a variation of classes (shaman for a cleric, bard/shaman for a
> chanter, hybrid for a warrior etc).. locked doors and traps would DEMAND a
> rogue in groups - and noway do I believe thats fair.
>
> > To say that rogues are the most desirable classes is to be someone in
> > a guild with ready made groups, someone getting pleveled or an uber
> > twink to get to the levels where a rogue IS necessary. from levels 1
> > to 59 that just isnt true.
>
> The point is, NO class should be absolutely necessary EVER. Traps and
> locked doors mean a rogue IS essential to the group, thats wrong imo. Sure
> make it faster/easier to have a rogue there, but don't make the place
> exclusive to rogue groups.
Bards have lockpick and remove traps, but capped at such a low level
that they are useless for endgame content... and there is no lower level
content where they are really useful. Opening up some of the current
"key only" content like TOFS to lockpicking would make rogues and
bards more desirable at lower levels, and yet anyone who wanted to
get around the "need" for a picker would simply have to gather keys,
like you do now. This is the way Befallen works, gather the three keys
or get a picker... any picker.
Similarly, traps like the ones in Echo are annoying but not play preventing.
Putting in content like that, where you could use a rogue/bard to make
life easier, or work harder to get around, would make the lower end game
more interesting for those who took up the classes with more than looking
at mob butt for 60 levels in mind.
Bergh
blue girl with white hair and red eyes
> all going to guild coffers anyways. But I'll have to admit that even
> I might be close-mouthed on a non-guild raid if I "found" a Fungi or
> a Flayed Barbarian Mask...
lol....i remember being in a group one time, i cant remember which
class i was...they blur together sometimes, and i saw a rogue oocing
for a group. since im usually sympathetic towards rogues and wizards
getting a group i said "hey...lets get that rogue". moron group leader
said no...because rogue might pickpocket the mobs and take money from
group.
NATURAL SELECTION AT WORK!
these kind of folks kill themselves off before long. i guess my main
problem has more to do with the fact that idiots like this exist more
than rogues having a hard time. but verant doesnt make it easier
though. like you said....it shouldnt be easy for the uber classes
pre-50. its sort of like how on every server druids come a dime a
dozen then whine when they get to end game raids because they truly
arent needed. in this case the whining comes for the first 50
something levels while the druids happily quad all the pumas they
want.
kaev
> "Mark A. Rimer" <locu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<Xwed9.72457$vY2.1...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>...
>
>
>>all going to guild coffers anyways. But I'll have to admit that even
>>I might be close-mouthed on a non-guild raid if I "found" a Fungi or
>>a Flayed Barbarian Mask...
>>
>
> lol....i remember being in a group one time, i cant remember which
> class i was...they blur together sometimes, and i saw a rogue oocing
> for a group. since im usually sympathetic towards rogues and wizards
> getting a group i said "hey...lets get that rogue". moron group leader
> said no...because rogue might pickpocket the mobs and take money from
> group.
A natural consequence of the mechanics of the pickpocket skill and
human nature. Clearly you haven't had experiences like:
1) Spending hours grouped at a normally "ok" for pp camp that seemed to
be producing about half the usual coinage, not attaching any special
significance to the Rogue complaining all day and running off to zone
and return so she can reset her hotkeys... and two days later you
learn that Pickpocket skill has a bug that locks hotkeys.
(I heard that they fixed this bug, which is yet another reason to
not group with a_random_rogue_XX, now you can't even spot the extra
greedy ones to boot them from the group.)
2) Your young Ranger has finally caught the Orc Runner and he's gonna
just barely manage to win the fight. Some dirtbag of a Barbarian runs
up and stops for a second... you finish the fight, no quest bit on the
corpse (this item never fails to drop, btw).
3) Half your group dies because the Rogue is too damned busy bragging
about his highest BS result to some passing fellow twink to join the
melee.
These are not isolated incidents, but rather typical of my experiences
with 'random' Rogues. It's because of shit like that that I quit
grouping with Rogues not already known to myself/friend/guildmate about
2 years ago, and frankly I haven't missed them a bit. Too damned many
of the a_random_rogue_XX's are dirtbags, the odds of finding a decent
one in the LFG set are too poor to make it worthwhile.
Kaev
slapfish
> Did you forget about hide/sneak? Your Rogue can explore places solo with
> almost no risk that your Shaman would need a major raid force to visit.
Of course I didn't forget about hide/sneak. Anything that can see through
invis can see through hide/sneak as well, which means anything that is much
higher level than me and undead as well. This rules out a great many
dungeons. If my shaman were to be seen, at least she has a few tricks up her
sleeve to get out of trouble.
What would happen if my rogue were to be attacked by some nasty while
swimming the great wide sea? How would I retrieve her body off the ocean
floor? What if my rogue were to fall in a pit or a pool with steep sides?
Any caster can gate out, not a rogue. What if I were to get lost in the
dungeon (yes despite having a map this happens to me often) again, a caster
can gate out, not so a rogue. And, last but not least, if either were to
die while exploring I would prefer it be the caster. My shaman can bind much
closer to any exploring location and sow/buff herself for the corpse run, as
well as protect herself with spells.
I kept reading how wonderful and necessary rogues were at corpse retrieval.
I was so pleased that at least I could do something useful, but except for
hauling my own corpse I was never needed. I can't tell you how many times I
asked "you need me to hide and drag your corpse?" "No, we got it" Nobody
ever needed me. It was me that needed everyone else and I got sick and
tired of begging to be in a group that really wanted a tank, cleric or
chanter instead of a rogue. I wanted to start a class that was useful and
appreciated. I started a shaman and I don't regret it.
I love my rogue, but until there are some changes made to the class I think
she'll be gathering dust. She's just too difficult to play and not as much
fun as other classes because of the severe melee only limitations she has.
slapfish
> These are not isolated incidents, but rather typical of my experiences
> with 'random' Rogues. It's because of shit like that that I quit
> grouping with Rogues not already known to myself/friend/guildmate about
> 2 years ago, and frankly I haven't missed them a bit. Too damned many
> of the a_random_rogue_XX's are dirtbags, the odds of finding a decent
> one in the LFG set are too poor to make it worthwhile.
hmmm I could say that about just about any class in the game.
Richard
news:unchuv...@corp.supernews.com...
As has been pointed out to me more than once, Sneak/Hide works on both live
and undead mobs.
--
Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Luminary of 55 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The
Appointed>
Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 30 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The
Appointed>
Ganwein, Wood Elf Ranger of 15 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The Appointed>
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 15 seasons, Erollisi Marr <Decadence>
Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 22 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The Appointed>
ryouseika
nyarrl...@antisocial.com says...
> said no...because rogue might pickpocket the mobs and take money from
> group.
I get that from groups a LOT. Pisses me off, but I can see their point.
Most rogues I've grouped with have eventually mentioned in our private
conversations "oh yeah, I PP *all* the time, you should too." Yeesh.
When I'm in a group I *either* loot *or* (if there's a monk not wanting
autosplit on in the group) pickpocket. I still get idiots arguing that
I make more than my fair share that way - yeah, because the 2 silver or
gold pieces I get *when* are really, reeeeally valuable. If I want to
make money, I'll ninja-loot like the rest of the group and grab the fine
steel weapons, thanks :P
--
Ryou
ryouseika
says...
>
> > Did you forget about hide/sneak? Your Rogue can explore places solo with
> > almost no risk that your Shaman would need a major raid force to visit.
>
>
> Of course I didn't forget about hide/sneak. Anything that can see through
> invis can see through hide/sneak as well, which means anything that is much
> higher level than me and undead as well.
Undead do not see through sneak/hide. I conned the specs wayyyy back
when they would have had much fun taking one swipe at me and discussing
how many points of damage were wasted, and they were indiff when I was
hidden. And they DEFINITELY see through invis. My necro got jumped by
one last night. Higher levels also do not see through sneak/hide. They
have a better *chance* of seeing through, but it's not guaranteed. I've
snuck up on many a thing deep red to me to get a better look and never
been caught. Only time sneak/hide failed was once in LGuk, and I simple
backed up, refreshed sneak/hide, checked again to make sure it was
working, and moved on.
Tim Smith
>> Did you forget about hide/sneak? Your Rogue can explore places solo with
>> almost no risk that your Shaman would need a major raid force to visit.
>
> Of course I didn't forget about hide/sneak. Anything that can see through
> invis can see through hide/sneak as well, which means anything that is
> much higher level than me and undead as well. This rules out a great many
Hide/sneak works against undead, and also against most things that see
invis. E.g., the goblin Wizards in Sol have no trouble seeing through my
50+ Wizard's invis, but my 7 Rogue hid/snuck among them with no problem at
all. When my Wizard had an accident in Lower Guk, my 7 Rogue had no trouble
walking past the undead to drag the corpse out. The bats in LGuk see
through it, though, so my Rogue got nailed when he went exploring after
dragging the corpse out.
--Tim Smith
kaev
> In article <d85db693.02090...@posting.google.com>,
> nyarrl...@antisocial.com says...
>
>
>>said no...because rogue might pickpocket the mobs and take money from
>>group.
>>
>
> I get that from groups a LOT. Pisses me off, but I can see their point.
> Most rogues I've grouped with have eventually mentioned in our private
> conversations "oh yeah, I PP *all* the time, you should too." Yeesh.
Ack! You've revealed too much! Now they'll have to kill you! :-p
Kaev
Lance Berg
ryouseika wrote:
> In article <d85db693.02090...@posting.google.com>,
> nyarrl...@antisocial.com says...
>
> > said no...because rogue might pickpocket the mobs and take money from
> > group.
>
> I get that from groups a LOT. Pisses me off, but I can see their point.
> Most rogues I've grouped with have eventually mentioned in our private
> conversations "oh yeah, I PP *all* the time, you should too." Yeesh.
> When I'm in a group I *either* loot *or* (if there's a monk not wanting
> autosplit on in the group) pickpocket. I still get idiots arguing that
> I make more than my fair share that way - yeah, because the 2 silver or
> gold pieces I get *when* are really, reeeeally valuable. If I want to
> make money, I'll ninja-loot like the rest of the group and grab the fine
> steel weapons, thanks :P
>
> --
> Ryou
There is a simple solution to this problem. Make your local
Rogue your Master Looter. This way he can practice PP all
he wants and noone suffers. If he's dishonest and doesn't split
all the loot, well any masterlooter could have done the same.
Oddly, being trusted often causes people to repay your trust
with honesty, while -not- being trusted can tend to make them
willing to betray you.
Bergh "whats that, wisdom gear doing the talking?" Brelltender
slapfish
> have a better *chance* of seeing through, but it's not guaranteed. I've
> snuck up on many a thing deep red to me to get a better look and never
> been caught. Only time sneak/hide failed was once in LGuk, and I simple
> backed up, refreshed sneak/hide, checked again to make sure it was
> working, and moved on.
I remember distinctly pulling the entire throne room in Crushbone one time
when I hide/snuck in to take a look around. I think I was maybe 14-15th
level at the time, and from then on never relied on hide/sneak again.
Mark A. Rimer
> Sebilis and HS were probably the 2 main dungeons in old world EQ, HS
> without a rogue is an absolute PITA, Sebilis without a rogue excludes you
> from the most lucrative loot in the zone.
Old world?
<cough> Sol B and L. Guk are old world 45+ ;-) <cough>
;-)
> Having locked doors is always good, but there should be a "rogueless"
method
> too. I shouldnt be massively hindered in HS because I can't find a rogue
I've always thought that wizards and/or mages should have
a "Knock" spell...I can't remember how many times in D&D
my rogue would get blasted by a trapped lock only to have
a wizard pop it open with Knock...
;-)
Mark A. Rimer
> I remember distinctly pulling the entire throne room in Crushbone one time
> when I hide/snuck in to take a look around. I think I was maybe 14-15th
> level at the time, and from then on never relied on hide/sneak again.
That's because some mobs are just immune. Emperor Crush,
Ambassador D'Vinn, A Royal Guard, and Lord Darish all STILL
see through level 60 rogues' sneak/hide...and Emperor Crush
still aggros (as do bixie drones...but at least they don't see through
sneak/hide).
You took one mob's peculiarities (and some are just like that)
and let it sour you on one of the best parts of being a rogue.
Not only that, but there are some (very few) mobs that see
through Invisibility spells but not sneak/hide (Drolvargs come
to mind). Also, some caster mobs will buff themselves and their
friends with a See Invisible spell. It's only fair, and no different
than PC's in EQ's PvP worlds (where see invis is more useful
than enduring breath).
Mark A. Rimer
> Of course I didn't forget about hide/sneak. Anything that can see through
> invis can see through hide/sneak as well, which means anything that is
much
> higher level than me and undead as well.
Wrong and wrong. There are some mobs in the game that would eat
an invis caster but are great resting places for a tired rogue. Also, rogue
invis covers both Invis AND Invis to Undead, and is the only Invis in the
game that does. Also, higher levels may have a CHANCE to see through
your sneak/hide, but it is most definately a rare event. It's like an
anti-lottery...
it could happen, but don't count on it happening to you.
And sneak is 100% effective on every single mob in the
game. 100%. That is not a made up number. You used to
could hand things to Innoruk himself by sneaking around,
and he hates everybody (it's sorta his job). If you can work
your way out of LoS of a critter and sneak behind him/her,
you WILL NOT aggro them...with a successful sneak this
is possible at level 1for a halfling to sneak up to the level
55+ dark elves in Kithicor...they may randomly occasionally
see through Hide on such a low level, but NEVER through
sneak.
>his rules out a great many
> dungeons. If my shaman were to be seen, at least she has a few tricks up
her
> sleeve to get out of trouble.
Root poison and run 3 is the only trick I know...at least until Fade
refreshes.
<snip part about rogues not having Gate>
I wish there was a Gate item in the game...but at least now there ARE
some 'port potions. If you're really a scairdy cat, get a halfling-only
version
of the Leatherfoot raider cap...usable from inventory by all/all and it's an
INSTANT cast Gate to WC. I'm happy with FoB and Frost potions,
and Thurg gate potions if I've got one on me.
Not as good as Gate, and most definately not good in the middle
of melee (although my rogue should have a channeling skill with
as many items and such he clicks on...;-) ). You pays your money
and takes your chances.
>I kept reading how wonderful and necessary rogues were at corpse retrieval.
Well, in Kael, we suck. I HATE the see-invis only portions of Kael...even
places like Chardok where the dogs sometimes sniff you out, you can at least
work on pathing to sneak past. In Kael off the path, everything fucking
sees you and that's just anti-rogue coding as far as I see. But I am a bit
biased...
> I was so pleased that at least I could do something useful, but except for
> hauling my own corpse I was never needed. I can't tell you how many times
I
> asked "you need me to hide and drag your corpse?" "No, we got it" Nobody
> ever needed me. It was me that needed everyone else and I got sick and
> tired of begging to be in a group that really wanted a tank, cleric or
> chanter instead of a rogue. I wanted to start a class that was useful and
> appreciated. I started a shaman and I don't regret it.
Aye...lots of places I'd rather have a monk/necro/sk pull my corpse,
just because if I screw up I'm dead again...if they do, they can get a
FD off. And the necro/sk can just bring your body to the zone-in anyways...
30 minute pathing CR through Dragon Necropolis, or 2 minute/100 pp
CR? Hmmm...
> I love my rogue, but until there are some changes made to the class I
think
> she'll be gathering dust. She's just too difficult to play and not as
much
> fun as other classes because of the severe melee only limitations she has.
That's fine. Ask jazz how he thought about his wizard before some of the
wizard pre-50 changes. Anybody in their right minds loved wizards 50+ when
Velious came out, even moreso with Luclin and AA skills. But the wizards
don't need 'em so much like they used to...it slows their exp down from
quadding.
Rogues still MUST have a group to level effectively. Sure my main and alt
can solo some...but I'll take a Chardok group anyday over pulling only
light-blue
con ember hornets, while praying that the dark blue ones are level 40 and
not 41 (because I can kill a level 40, but a level 41 will kill me...period.
The
margin is THAT slim for a solo rogue). A rogue must have groups to get his
main skill (backstab) up, and doesn't have a get out of jail free card like
a monk. Many times I've finished exping somewhere only to have to sneak
my way out...a caster would just gate and a monk with a RL emergency can
just FD/q and get up. It's just part of the reward that you completely and
totally suck ass for 45 levels that you can now walk into a Mycanoid Spore
King camp at level 60 over the ranger that's been sitting at the zone for
2 hours.
;-)
Mark A. Rimer
"Tim Smith" <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:slrnancom6.dq0...@tzs.net...
Left wall for bats, right wall for GIBS...dammit doesn't anybody remember
anymore?
;-)
James Grahame
> "-Martin" <vil...@cheerfuldot.com> wrote in message
> news:G1ld9.2967$Z12....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > Sebilis and HS were probably the 2 main dungeons in old world EQ, HS
> > without a rogue is an absolute PITA, Sebilis without a rogue excludes
you
> > from the most lucrative loot in the zone.
>
> Old world?
>
> <cough> Sol B and L. Guk are old world 45+ ;-) <cough>
> ;-)
Don't forget Permafrost. Our main guild shaman hit 99 AA points last
night, and the bulk of them have been earned in the Bear Pits in Perma
soloing.
> > Having locked doors is always good, but there should be a "rogueless"
> > method too. I shouldnt be massively hindered in HS because I can't find
a rogue
>
> I've always thought that wizards and/or mages should have
> a "Knock" spell...I can't remember how many times in D&D
> my rogue would get blasted by a trapped lock only to have
> a wizard pop it open with Knock...
I just wish more doors were also Bard-pickable. Then at least you'd have
a choice as to who to bring along to get past those areas. Bard lockpicking
is worthless as it is now.
James
Mark A. Rimer
> "blue girl with white hair and red eyes" <nyarrl...@antisocial.com>
> wrote in message news:d85db693.02090...@posting.google.com...
> > at what level? 60? i see most of the people here refer to the 60th end
> > game encounters routinely as if everyone in the game is already 60th.
> > ok....so befallen has a locked door. what else?
>
> 50+ rogues are awesome. Wizards at high levels are too.
>
> Pre-50 they both plain suck. Starting slowly and working to become the
most
> powerfull class isn't a bad thing IMO.. and the only way id agree that <50
> rogues should be beefed up, is if rogues lose the double backstab ability
at
> 55.
>
> Lets see how many rogues go for that.
One vote "against." ;-)
> I can agree with that, but rogues versatility should not come at the cost
of
> restrictive gaming to every other class and group.
I agree with this as well. That's why I think the locked chests as
loot (some that bards can pick) as well as a "Knock" type spell for
a casting class that can basically function as a rogue of a certain
level would be a boon to the game.
No class should be essential for regular exp'ing or dungeon crawling.
I can go with the fact that some raids should need certain classes,
just because it gives those classes a place to shine (like having a
rogue scout for a monk in Hate, or having 4 wizards burn down Yelniak
with a Bane spell/manaburn).
John Muir
wrote:
Heh, one of the mobs [Royal Guard perhaps, been a while to say the
least] up in the Crushbone tower sees through invis, they did this to
prevent the hellish killstealing that used to go on over Dragoon
Dirks. Seriously.
--
[60 Warder] Schadenfreude (Human) <United Kingdoms>
Bristlebane server
John Muir
<locu...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>just FD/q and get up. It's just part of the reward that you completely and
>totally suck ass for 45 levels that you can now walk into a Mycanoid Spore
>King camp at level 60 over the ranger that's been sitting at the zone for
>2 hours.
>;-)
Difference being the Ranger would probably be leisurely soloing the
first six or so Frogs from zone in while waiting on a group.
"Ooh, grats Level_60_Rogue07 on the fourth Fungi Robe to drop!"
*insert smiley of choice here*