A RANT on JBoots and Camping in general (VERY LONG)
Sam Schlansky
bmcq...@verant.com (Brad McQuaid) wrote in
<378186DB...@verant.com>:
>Sure it does.
>
>1. It removes you from areas you are too high level for.
>2. It boosts the player driven economy, because you are trading, buying,
>and selling more
>3. It adds something for higher level people to spend money on.
4. It intensely pisses off your paying customers who continue to play the game
and get to high levels.
You're making a CRUCIAL mistake here if you implement the abovementioned
"fix"... you're slapping a patch on a fundamental flaw in the game-- you're
curing the symptoms and not the disease.
Case in point: my level 35 ranger and a friendly level 38 wizard were waiting
for a spot on Drelzna in Najena. Suffice it to say that after four days (maybe
50 hours) of killing greens I only got to ATTACK Drelzna one time, and
obviously no boots. If I wasn't a Ranger (which gets SoW at lvl 39) I'd still
be in that godforsaken dungeon.
Anyway... while we were waiting for Drelzna, we camped Rathyl and Najena. As
I'm sure you know, the Flowing Black Robes are _already_ a lore item, and
generally go for around 150 plat on mature servers-- a fairly good reward for
waiting 20 minutes for a spawn, even at our level.
As we were a group of two (and could easily solo Najena) we were getting a LOT
of flowing black robes, and after each one the wizard teleported out to
g.faydark or cazic-thule to sell them. Yes, thats right, we were farming out a
green mob! Exactly what you feel is unfair! And you know what else? A group of
lower-level players came along and wanted to get FBR's for themselves, and we
told them to either wait until we got a shot at Drelzna or pay us 150 plat.
That's right, we purposely took it for ourselves, even though there was no
challenge in it! We're bad people... aren't we?
No, we sure as hell aren't bad people. Really.
You know what the problem is Brad? Journeyman boots are an _ESSENTIAL ITEM_ for
every class but Shamans, Druids, and Rangers, and they're pretty damn useful
even for them.
The Drelzna spot has a chance to spawn every twenty minutes or so. Drelzna
generally pops up about three out of five times. No problem, right?
Drelzna drops MAYBE three to four Journeyman boots per day. Now THAT is a
problem.
In your infinite wisdom, for the love of Tunare, PLEASE explain to me why a _NO
DROP_ item like JBoots that is _absolutely essential_ for almost every class
should be so ridiculously rare. Actually, please explain why ANY "no drop" item
should be THAT rare. It's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to "farm" Journeyman Boots,
since they're no drop. It just can't be done. It takes a group of 25's to take
Drelzna and there are about 100 monsters on the way to her, so it's
ridiculously difficult to twink a low-level character with JBoots.
Do you have ANY idea how upset people get in Najena? People /shout curses every
time Drelzna spawns with another earring of disease reflection on her.
Killstealing is RIDICULOUS in Najena... I've seen upwards of fifty people
packed into Drelzna's little room, three entire guilds, just to see who can
nuke her the quickest.
As a melee character, I've taken my lvl 35 Ranger into Najena and camped
literally from nine o'clock at night to SEVEN IN THE MORNING for boots. Most of
the time, a lvl 25 Wizard pops up with his weak little group (who could just
barely handle her and her cadre of necromancers), nukes her, and gets the kill.
And of course there's nothing I can do except leave.
Tempers flare, enemies are made, roleplaying is abandoned, FUN is abandoned.
I've never seen people so... so.... NASTY as they are in Najena. Rubicite
doesn't even compare.
Now, lets go back to the "problem" that you guys are thinking so hard on...
high level characters camping low level monsters. Let me ask you a question. Do
you honestly believe that I'd be in Najena killing greens camping the Flowing
Black Robe at level thirty-five if I could possibly avoid it? Holy CHRIST I
hate Najena! When I finally left, I had camped there for twenty hours straight
and I could barely see clearly through the blood in my eyes, I was so pissed
off. You have NO idea.
Tell me Brad, with your character that you play in the game, are you around
level 25 yet? If not, when you get there, what will you do? I know you play a
Ranger, but let's say you're a Warrior or a Rogue... will you give up on
Journeyman boots or will you waste a week of your life for one essential item?
Will you just give up on an essential item for your class or will you depend on
shamans and druids for SoW for the rest of your character's life? I really want
to know. Don't answer as the game designer, answer as a player.
Camping IS a huge problem. Fifteen levels ago I wouldn't have believed it, but
as a Ranger I _require_ a full set of Rubicite armor... because there ain't no
decent chain in the game and I can't tank without it.
Speaking of Rubicite, it has the exact same problem to a much lesser extent.
You see, at the levels where you need rubicite, the monsters are mostly blue...
so you're gaining experience and actually (gasp!) having fun. Still, I've been
in TR2 (the upper throne room in Cazic-Thule) for over sixteen hours at a
stretch with nary a sign of a rubicite helm. I know, I know, as a Ranger I
could also get a Crested Helm from castle mistmoore (which is better anyway),
and I _have_ tried for one, but apparently they're even MORE rare... nothing
like JBoots, but pretty damn rare.
Changing the game so that green mobs don't drop magical treasure won't help at
all. Really good items are almost NEVER traded. I can count the number of times
I've seen Rubicite traded on the fingers of one hand... and the prices are so
ridiculously high that you'd HAVE to be level 50 just to afford them. That's
not a reasonable solution. A reasonable solution involves making it reasonably
POSSIBLE to get items OF your level AT your level without a great deal of luck.
By the time a melee character reaches 40, he or she should have the oppurtunity
to have a full suit of rubicite if they so desire. Just like a level 20 has a
full suit of Ringmail, a level 25 has a full suit of banded, and a level 30 has
a full suit of steel plate.
Setting items lore, while it _does_ help, just isn't good enough. Admittedly,
lore items do alleviate the pressure a bit, but we need more.
1) Set up the game so that we don't feel the NEED to camp. It needs a LOT more
equivalent treasures. Why not have "gilded chain" available in Paineel with an
armor class equivalent to steel plate with some minor stat bonuses? Why not
have a level 49 shaman spell "Infusion of Wolf" with a store-available (or
quested) 5000 plat regeant that gives a permanent SoW? Why not have "runners
rings" that give SoW when worn? (I know this item does exist, but it doesn't
work) You've already done this to a large extent with weapons, particularly
staves... why not armor and miscellaneous items?
2) It would be nice to have a lot of the best items for each class at each
level range be no-drop, and to need to get them from long, interesting, plot-
ridden, dialogue-full, quests. You just implemented one high-level quest,
(Trueshot Bow) why not more? I'd love to see quests like this for EVERY
class... paladins get a minor holy sword, warriors get a ring of regeneration,
shadowknights get a minor evil sword, wizards get a ring of +10 intelligence,
clerics a ring of +10 wisdom, druids get a minor magical scimitar, etc. Make
them all start at level 30 or so and make them all slightly better than
equivalent items from monsters.
3) We need to be entertained. We need to have fun playing your game. Is that
too much to ask?
Stusser, a disgruntled ranger on The Rathe
--
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Martin
Schlansky) wrote:
Spoken like a true Powergamer!
You are one of those 24/7 campers and farmers, this kind of
measurement is directed against. All of what you've been writing
just defends this measurement.
Just a few question on your rant :
- Why are the journeyman boots an essential item for all characters?
It's sure very nice to have them but essential?
- Why do you need a full set of rubicite? These are not essential, for
sure.
My 2 cents.
Martin
Dundee
Schlansky) wrote:
>Warning... this is VERY long. It's late, what can I say?
[snip entire rant]
I agree.
I want a pair of JBoots. I don't want to camp. But their
"anti-camping strategy" means I will *have* to camp to get them, or
just not have them.
Freakin' brilliant.
--
Dundee - http://dundee.uong.com/
Charles B. Naumann
For the most part, I think his rant is valid.
Your character will need level appropriate hardware to continue
to advance. A level 5 warrior needs a set of patchwork armor, a
level 20 warrior needs a full set of banded. At the upper levels
magic stuff really is required, and getting it is very frustrating.
And his point is valid, if an item is no drop, why should it be rare?
I would like to see more useful, non-rare, no drop items. This
really would help the camping problem. Making items rare or non-spawning
will not really help the camping problem When the demand for an item is
high and the supply is limited, there will be camping. Limiting
the number of potential harvesters will not really cure camping.
Brad stated (bragged) that there were still hundreds of magic items
still that have not been found. What does this mean? I believe
it means that there are items that are a rare spawn on a rare NPC.
Joe Hermit pops up once a day and has a 1% chance or having a
giant can of whoopass. Hey! An item that has not been found! Of
course this add very little to the game.
Charles Naumann
Martin <mar...@bsy.de> wrote:
: On 6 Jul 1999 04:18:08 -0500, s...@deletethis.operation3d.com (Sam
: Schlansky) wrote:
: Spoken like a true Powergamer!
Ingot Head
lore items when mob is green" could help. I have a few problems with it
though:
It forces you to get your magic item in a very narrow range of levels.
I'm a half-elf Druid, the WORST race for Druids. I need Wisdom items BADLY,
and get them whenever I can. If this is implemented, then I will have a
very narrow range of levels in which to get badly needed items.
Ok, Higher levels can no longer get magic items from green mobs. This means
that if I miss the proper level due to not hearing about the item, or
because I was playing with a partner and we went after one of HIS items, or
because I never managed to get an appropriate group together in time, then I
have to go on the market.
Meanwhile, you are forcing the item into the hands of people that have a
MUCH harder time getting it. Therefore the item becomes much rarer, and
sells for much more. People won't attack uber mobs unless they have to if
there is a very high chance of dying.
So, I can't go after it, because I missed my chance. The market dries up.
I am basically S.O.L.
I don't camp, I lack the patience to do so. I have been busy with other
things though, and never gotten any decent snakeskin armor. I had always
planned on going to PAW and getting some of this armor when I am a little
less vulnerable to swarms. If this is implemented, I may NEVER get the
armor. It turns the game into a race.
You have to know all the good items for your class, and be in the right
place at the right level to get that item. Since I have a narrow range of
levels in which to acquire those snakesking leggings, I am more likely camp
that NPC until I get it, instead of going there when it's convenient to me.
This might INCREASE camping instead of lowering it.
Those of us who don't like to camp tend to go to get an item when they don't
have to spend massive time retrieving it. We go in, slaughter until we get
what we want, then leave. Currently, the system allows those who don't mind
camping to "harvest" items for cash. This proposal would reverse things.
People that like to camp and harvest won't be able to do so, and those of us
who don't LIKE to camp will HAVE to in order to get our item before the mob
that carries it goes green to us.
Gaellic
E'Ci
Robert Viduya
>
> I'm truly beginning to hate that damned spell.
Hear, hear.
>
> I have a better idea -- let's nuke Spirit of Wolf.
>
Better yet, make it so it can only be cast on oneself.
Noslom
>Actually, although I agree with some of this post, I could see how the "no
>lore items when mob is green" could help. I have a few problems with it
>though:
>
>It forces you to get your magic item in a very narrow range of levels.
I have heard Brad say there are a lot of magic items nobody has
found yet. I would assume that they would be on the monsters
in the higher level dungeons where you SHOULD BE. You should
not camp greens in dungeons beneath your level. You
are ruining the lower level dungeons by making the good
magic items appropriate for lower levels there only
obtainably by campers/farmers of higer level.
There are enough items that I have seen in all the dungeons
and a lot can't be gotten by a group of the appropriate level
because of the high level farmer/campers. The higher levels
need to move on. I think no loot at all should drop from
a no-exp green, Brad has said it would probably be better
to just have no magic items drop from no exp greens. Which
I think is a good solution. I am sure they will add (if they
have not already) items with the slightly better or the same
abilities as the ones you say you just have to have so
you can get what you want at a large range of levels.
Noslom
Noslom
>You have to know all the good items for your class, and be in the right
>place at the right level to get that item. Since I have a narrow range of
>levels in which to acquire those snakesking leggings, I am more likely camp
>that NPC until I get it, instead of going there when it's convenient to me.
>This might INCREASE camping instead of lowering it.
>
>Those of us who don't like to camp tend to go to get an item when they
don't
>have to spend massive time retrieving it. We go in, slaughter until we get
>what we want, then leave. Currently, the system allows those who don't
mind
>camping to "harvest" items for cash. This proposal would reverse things.
>People that like to camp and harvest won't be able to do so, and those of
us
>who don't LIKE to camp will HAVE to in order to get our item before the mob
>that carries it goes green to us.
The level range in which you still get exp is very large, and in a group it
is even larger (you can take them out earlier.) There are no items you
have to have for a given level. There are also equivalent items as
you move up the scale, there are also others selling thiers as they
move on to better items. If you fight in an area appropriate for you level
and travel some you will be it the right place at the right time to get
enough magic to keep you happy.
Currently camping will always be there and is not too bad, the people
who are the most upset are those that wanted to camp themselves
but found the spot taken. What is bad is very high level players
taking the 'cream' off the lower level dungeons, just try and get a
runed staff in paw, I bet there are 3 other people there and they
are anon and camping/farming the named shamans.
Also some greens later on still give exp, these would still drop magic
items. From my thinking if the you can walk by the monster without
them attacking (a nice perk) not getting magic items would be the price
you pay for this perk.
Noslom
Dundee
<cle...@spamstinks.iglou.com> wrote:
>This might INCREASE camping instead of lowering it.
Of *course* it will increase camping.
Rather, instead of a few people camping for items and selling them to
everyone else, we'll have *everyone camping*.
Making things lore items, no drop, and now this - worst idea yet -
making them not appear at all if the mob is green are individually Bad
Ideas, but collectively they are moronic.
I don't WANT to camp. I don't care if OTHER PEOPLE camp. Let them!
I can't believe this guy (Brad) is wanted to force me to camp for
stuff and thinks that will help the "camping problem".
I mean it really, really ticks me off, just thinking about it.
Really.
If they wanted to end camping they wouldn't put all the kewl loot on
specific named mobs and then - duh - have the item only show up one
time in three anyway. I mean that's pure genius there, isn't it?
Kill so-n-so but, oops, this time he doesn't HAVE a head! Guess
you'll have to hang around and kill him again. Maybe he'll have a
head next time!
Grr... Level up 15 more times and get the hell out of here, that's
what I'm leaning towards these days. If they come up with any more
dumbass ideas like this to "end camping" I don't think I'll make it
that long.
Jeffrey Lin
Randomly generate artifacts/loots. Named critter has a higher chance of
generating better stuff, or a different "class" of treasure ala AD&D.
Also, a Mob Economy would be nice.
Each creature Faction has a Treasure Sum, as well as Treasure Gathering
Rate that is dependant on the size of the faction as well as power. Each
real time day, the faction adds more loot ot its Treasure Sum. When you
kill and loot someone in that faction, their treasure sum drops.
For example, Dervs are being camped because of various factors (doesn't
matter what) so they are over crowded. After a week or two, they will
find the dervs dead broke. And will move on to other non-crowded areas
because those areas have better treasure. This will also help spread
people to different and comparitively more difficult zones.
Jeff
Dundee
<noslom<nospam543>@promaxis.com> wrote:
>Also some greens later on still give exp, these would still drop magic
>items. From my thinking if the you can walk by the monster without
>them attacking (a nice perk) not getting magic items would be the price
>you pay for this perk.
And if you get low in hp's or meditate or for that matter, just sit
down, then a lot of times they WILL attack.
One thing made camping exist and one thing will make it go away and
all these fiction-busting anti-camping kludges just force MORE people
to camp.
I'd rather buy stuff from campers than camp myself.
Ya know how many nice magic items I've found in "normal play"? Not
camping but just killing mobs and *shock*, "here's one with something
neat!"?
Level 35 and this has happened exactly one time. And even that was
from a specific named mob that just happened to spawn where I was
killing stuff.
Verant put *all* of the good magic items on specific named mobs. That
is the problem. That always will be the problem. The "fix" is to NOT
DO THAT.
Sorry, I'm ranting, but all these "let's make Dundee camp, too"-ideas
are really getting to me.
Mike Wilson, UCE Account
> I have heard Brad say there are a lot of magic items nobody has
> found yet. I would assume that they would be on the monsters
> in the higher level dungeons where you SHOULD BE. You should
> not camp greens in dungeons beneath your level. You
> are ruining the lower level dungeons by making the good
> magic items appropriate for lower levels there only
> obtainably by campers/farmers of higer level.
It will do no such thing. They'll just start a cleric and use him to heal
the person tanking the creature or some such. They'll still "camp/harvest".
Not to mention if the "tank" types get to high they'll just get killed till
they are once again low enough.
To solve the "camp" issues they need to make the items 1) spawn a lot more
or 2) make pretty much everything no drop.
--
---
Mike Wilson, http://www.drwho.org http://www.pobox.com/~mwilson
*EQ: Celestian on Povar *
Resistance is futile. You will be intoxicated.
Minister of Propaganda
> Currently camping will always be there and is not too bad, the people
> who are the most upset are those that wanted to camp themselves
> but found the spot taken. What is bad is very high level players
> taking the 'cream' off the lower level dungeons, just try and get a
> runed staff in paw, I bet there are 3 other people there and they
> are anon and camping/farming the named shamans.
>
> items. From my thinking if the you can walk by the monster without
> them attacking (a nice perk) not getting magic items would be the price
> you pay for this perk.
know what, i find that allmost all the campers in Paw still get exp's at least
for the named shamans (top level ~19-21.) The staff isn't really good enough to
entice true high levels (i.e. it's well placed, and well balanced.)
Meeke's Ghost
spirit
justifiable, or maybe you want to just go to Qeynos for awhile. Do you
know how many long hours that takes without SoW or Journeymen boots? The
Karanas is ridicously long and boring zones to run through to get there.
And lets not even talk about the winding moutain that never ends from
Highpass Hold in Eastern Karans! Geez! Next best thing in many
classes(i.e. Rangers) from banded armor is Rubicite(Walk around at
level30 in banded? Yeah ok.). Items which are "No Drop" should spawn
more regularly period. Its the rarity of these items in these long,
far-off, far-from-binding, places that you MUST camp at(i.e. Journeymen
boots). Now maybe I personally disagree with his actions with not
letting others get a FBR but its my personal opion not anything else.
But think about sitting there for hours on end with no spawn of the item
you are there for. What would you do just sit there quietly and not kill
something which spawns in its place/next to the spawning point? Come on,
for a person to say no to that is a lier. I have sat for 20+hours
straight for Mucktail to show his face in highpass Hold for a Tomahawke.
Yes he did spawn: ONCE and had nothing but 12copper on him and a cloth
veil!? And why did I camp him the following day? Cause the rarity of the
spawn! Simply cause I sat there killing green Gnolls all day and night
waiting for this guy to spawn and with the item I needed. Think I would
have been outta there the minute I got my Tomahawke? You bet your ass I
would have(And did). I hardly got any exp from anything up there besides
maybe the occasionaly blue gnoll Flamepaw(about one an hour). Am I going
to be classified as a "Powergamer" also for my actions? What determins
if you are a "powergamer"? Because I loose sleep one night wanting an
item? If thats the case, then all Everquest players are guilty of being
one. We all have our own reasons for wanting an item or "needing" an
item, who is anyone to justify if that person "needs" it or just wants
it? And if its "No Drop" who cares which it is. He/she can do two things
with it: Keep it or destroy it.
This rant is in no way meaning to be offensive to anyone, it is just
simply expressing my feelings and personal understanding of what was
said.
Revelation D'Soul, The Rathe.
Dundee
Account) wrote:
>To solve the "camp" issues they need to make the items 1) spawn a lot more
>or 2) make pretty much everything no drop.
If they make everything nodrop, then won't we all HAVE to camp to get
the item?
Dundee
<mini...@SPAMSUCKSadelphia.net> wrote:
>know what, i find that allmost all the campers in Paw still get exp's at least
>for the named shamans (top level ~19-21.) The staff isn't really good enough to
>entice true high levels (i.e. it's well placed, and well balanced.)
...and much more readily available elsewhere.
adam connor
<3578E15FC440A6A5.14CF6972...@lp.airnews.net>,
Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.COM (Dundee) wrote:
...
> I'd rather buy stuff from campers than camp myself.
>
> Ya know how many nice magic items I've found in "normal play"? Not
> camping but just killing mobs and *shock*, "here's one with something
> neat!"?
>
> Level 35 and this has happened exactly one time. And even that was
> from a specific named mob that just happened to spawn where I was
> killing stuff.
>
> Verant put *all* of the good magic items on specific named mobs. That
> is the problem. That always will be the problem. The "fix" is to NOT
> DO THAT.
You have hit the nail on the head here.
adam connor
Slappy
observations:
I agree with you. I'm a Paladin on Xegony, I spent alot of time in Cazic
Thule. I didn't camp for the rubitcite but once or twice. Why? Because it
creates enemies....why? because everyone wants some for themselves. I want
some to, but I won't risk friendships to get it. The problem is there isn't
enough spawning...the MoB spawns....everyone nukes it....some one gets
it...people fight over who's turn it was. I was in the Tae room last
night...our group was being slaughtered by a few enemies...another group
watched us die or flee....Why? While we're gone there is no competition for
the ruby.
Is this role-playing? Is this fun? NO. I pay the same money they do...I play
as often as i can....but I'd really like to have a pair of Jboots...or some
rubicite....but I may never have it....while I see others wander by in full
sets....I now frown on such players....I see rubicite as a badge of
dishonor. The owners more than likely (though this isn't , of course, always
the case) stole...cheated....or let die other players. Where am I going with
this? Nowhere....the object of the game is to have fun...it would be more
fun if a nice item were to drop in my lap...it's not going to happen....I
have almost no chance of getting a nice anything off a MoB unless I
camp.....there is no selling of nice equipment. The higher ups keep it for
themselves. They pass it onto their other characters when they come across
better stuff for their primary( which I have absolutely no problem with).
I'm not a powergamer....the next level comes when it comes....I just want
more enjoyment from this game. Getting something nice once in a while would
be that source of enjoyment. The only nice things I have were given to me by
my friends ,some of the sweetest players. There aren't many of these people.
And forget about getting a lower level player to get you a piece or
equipment or item for you (if that stupid no loot on green mob thing goes
through). No one wants to work for you for platinum. They want the items for
themselves....and if you dot have anything to trade? Forget it. I've
wandered a bit...but I think any reasonable person can understand what I'm
trying to say. When I play a game like Final fantasy....I will eventually
get the nice items or equipment ( and that's fantastic), but in EQ, you
have to sell your soul to acquire nice things.
I have an idea..how about better equipment in stores? (This just came
to me) Make the store or person out of the way....make the items desirable
like the rare spawn stuff...and of course with a price tag to match. Who
knows, maybe there is...though I doubt it yet....the game designers seem to
have had a singular idea regarding the dispensing of items. This way players
like myself ( and I know there are a lot of us) Have an out....we dont have
to camp to have nice things...we can earn them the old fashion way.
It may even help the camping...if you can spend 1000pp on a new set of
grieves....better then Steel....would you camp the Tae room for 2 weeks?
Some people will still ,of course,...but I bet less would. And of the
hundreds or items left to be discovered....I'm going to surmise that most
these are in places very few can go at this time....there are all of what?
30 level 50 players on Xegony now?
The only reason I decided to write this is because I have just come to
ahead on this issue. I have some serious doubts about going on....( If your
running up a hill....but never seem to be getting closer to the top...your
tiring the whole time....to you keep going? If so, for how long?) Ah
well....maybe things will improve....maybe they wont...I've never been as
consumed in a game as I am this one...most games I play finish and move
along...or get bored and move along. Everquest is big, beautiful...an
magical...but it lacks in some places. It fails to satisfy after a certain
point, and it's because of little misgivings. I admit my post wanders ( I
warned you =) and is wrought with emotion but isn't that what this game is
about? I stopped and stared at the moon the other night in Rathe
mountains....it was beautiful...I heal and lend a hand to everyone in
need...regardless of thier race or class. It makes me feel good...it brings
me joy. But some of these same people would stab me in the back to get 'the
next great thing'. Not unlike real life I guess...isn't it amazing how soon
everyoe forgets...it's just a game? That there are real people and emotions
at work here.
I've read many, many posting here....and depending on my mood...I can
see the issues from everyones point of view....I'd like to here all of
yours....Steal the bandwidth if you have to...share your opinions...tear my
post apart with your word processor and bash me over the head with it....or
tell me you agree with me..and that i'm not the only one slowly going crazy
in perhaps the best game ever concieved of to this point. Thanks
All.....Take Care.
P.s: How will you recognize me in game? I'm the player who heals and buffs
for no reason....who helps for no rewards....who gives away items I no
longer have a use for, or that I acquire and cannot use. I am the person who
goes with you on dangerous quests...because it will make you happy and so
that I may protect you. I am she/he who dies so that you may make the zone
and live. I am your friend, though you may never know it. Be well all.
Sam Schlansky wrote in message
<8DFB35ABDvi...@news1.newscene.com>...
Slappy
apoligize in advance =)
Ben King
Mike Wilson, UCE Account <uce_...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
<HPqg3.2344$Bk7....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>...
<snip>
> To solve the "camp" issues they need to make the items 1) spawn a lot
more
> or 2) make pretty much everything no drop.
I think the solution is BOTH 1 & 2 not one or the other. But I guess
that's what the test server is for huh?
-Ben
David Schrank
or questing but player traffic. To make mattters worse you have to kill the
same damn monster 100 times before you get the item and leave. I like the
lore fix though.
Joe C.
news:8DFB35ABDvi...@news1.newscene.com...
> Warning... this is VERY long. It's late, what can I say?
>
First off, it sounds to me like you *really* need to learn how to give EQ a
break every now and then, and just relax. NO GAME should get to a point
where you "can't see through the blood in your eyes"..this is really
rediculous.
As for the journeyman's boots being ESSENTIAL...I'd like you to explain to
me exactly why they are essential. I think this is crap. I have a level 24
necro, and I've gotten along just fine solo-ing and traveling great
distances without J-boots (and I didn't have the benefit of being pals with
a Druid or Shaman, so I hardly ever had SoW cast on me.). I know plenty of
higher (30+) level characters who also do not have J-boots. It sounds more
like these are just items you want very badly.
Finally, concerning your camping of the Flowing Robes, I think its pathetic
if you stopped anyone else from coming in and taking a shot at Najena. This
is the typical selfish, camping bullshit which annoys people to no end. You
said you were bringing in many FBR's. If this is the case, why would you
tell another party to wait or pay you 150pp?
I hope you never get your hands on journeyman's boots, or any other rare
item. You deserve the same ill treatment you give other people.
Joe C.
> found yet. I would assume that they would be on the monsters
> in the higher level dungeons where you SHOULD BE.
Excellent post!!! I couldn't have said it any better! Why is it that so
many of the high level characters insist on swarming to the same old spots,
making it totally impossible for anyone of lower level to obtain decent
items? The runed totem staff in Lake Rathe is a perfect example. I was
there alot when I was in the low 20's. I would routinely see level 30+
characters waiting for a Gnoll High Shaman to spawn. Funny thing is, there
are probably MUCH BETTER magic items just waiting to be found in the upper
level dungeons. For some reason, these power campers are much more content
to camp the same old items, rather than journey to new places. Its almost
like these powerful players are afraid of fighting monsters which can pose
any sort of threat.
David Schrank
a named mob has it at level 15. At level 20 make it a rare item that spawns
occasionally on all logical mobs. At 25 make it an uncommon item. at 30 make
it common. This would eradicate camping for said item completly.
Dundee wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:42:01 GMT, "Noslom"
> <noslom<nospam543>@promaxis.com> wrote:
>
> >Also some greens later on still give exp, these would still drop magic
> >items. From my thinking if the you can walk by the monster without
> >them attacking (a nice perk) not getting magic items would be the price
> >you pay for this perk.
>
> And if you get low in hp's or meditate or for that matter, just sit
> down, then a lot of times they WILL attack.
>
> One thing made camping exist and one thing will make it go away and
> all these fiction-busting anti-camping kludges just force MORE people
> to camp.
>
> I'd rather buy stuff from campers than camp myself.
>
> Ya know how many nice magic items I've found in "normal play"? Not
> camping but just killing mobs and *shock*, "here's one with something
> neat!"?
>
> Level 35 and this has happened exactly one time. And even that was
> from a specific named mob that just happened to spawn where I was
> killing stuff.
>
> Verant put *all* of the good magic items on specific named mobs. That
> is the problem. That always will be the problem. The "fix" is to NOT
> DO THAT.
>
> Sorry, I'm ranting, but all these "let's make Dundee camp, too"-ideas
> are really getting to me.
>
Remus Shepherd
> How about this:
>
> Randomly generate artifacts/loots. Named critter has a higher chance of
> generating better stuff, or a different "class" of treasure ala AD&D.
>
This has been offered before as the solution to the problem. Random
items would allow a wide variety of roughly equivalent items to exist,
and so people would not camp one monster looking for one particular item.
If boots, capes, and rings could have a random chance of having a SOW effect
(or some other effects chosen randomly from a list), and these items
appeared randomly throughout Solusek, there'd be no camping going on --
just mobile hunting and exploration.
Unfortunately, the randomly-generated item idea has been passed about
so many times, and ignored by Verant so many times, that I think there must
be a limitation preventing them from doing something like this. I don't
think they can have random items. They probably have a central item
database, which they create items into, and our inventory lists have only
index numbers referencing records in that central database. Such an
architecture would make random items difficult, if not impossible, to
implement. :/
.... ...
Remus Shepherd (re...@netcom.com)
Remus Shepherd
> Ya know how many nice magic items I've found in "normal play"? Not
> camping but just killing mobs and *shock*, "here's one with something
> neat!"?
>
> Level 35 and this has happened exactly one time. And even that was
> from a specific named mob that just happened to spawn where I was
> killing stuff.
Whoa. That's hard to believe. My 17th level cleric has bought a
few items, but she earned:
A Lockjaw hide vest, when Lockjaw attacked and killed my hunting
partner in the Oasis. A high-level character intervened and killed Lockjaw
with my occassional heal. After the fight, he gave the vest to me.
A Snakeskin mask when I was jumped on the shores of West Karana by a
Splitpaw Assassin. There aren't supposed to *be* any monsters on that
shoreline, and thinking I was safe I had allowed myself to be low on mana.
I managed to root the critter, then ran a safe distance away, medded to
full, and came back to blast it to hell. Didn't know what it had on it,
but I knew it had to have something neat.
An Iron Medallion from Runnyeye. No neat story here, we just killed
things, and one of our party gave me this medallion because he had looted
two of them.
A Order of Thunder amulet from killing Drosco. Nice item, no idea
he had it. He was a zombie, he was blue, I'm a cleric...therefore I killed
him. :)
A Thex Mallet, from a purposeful search through Befallen for the
pieces of the blasted thing. Even so, I had to buy the last piece (the
stem) from someone because the last mob was way beyond my party's ability.
Now, two of those were because I was in the right place at the right
time, two were happy discoveries, and one was a purposeful search. I have
been frustrated in my quests for certain items (screaming mace, shiny shield,
earring of magic reflection), but the only one I bought was the shield.
The rest I'll find, or not, eventually. I refuse to stoop to the level of
camping currently required to get that damn mace. :)
My 12th level Enchanter has even more unique items, albeit lower
level items (gold earring, alligator earring, thunder amulet, merit amulet,
golden locket), but she's the character I use to unravel quests. Gotta
love the fact that Enchanters can do quests for any race or class. :)
But there are items out there. I have no idea why people can't find them...
unless it's because they're too busy camping for the specific ones they
'have to have'. :p
Joe Ziolkowski
because it's probably not exploitable. Most patches seem to involve
"knee-jerk" reactions at Verant and generate new, more annoying problems.
It seems to me that a "more you mine, the less they have" concept may be
viable, but then you would see people camping near said creatures NOT
killing them. They would let the clock wind and discourage others from
taking their "time-bombs." It would spawn the "non-spawn controversy." I
find the game currently fairly well-balanced dispite being a Pk-er in a
Non-Pk world. New realms that are being planned for higher levels will give
these camper/farmers something better to do with their time, and ultimately
are what I am playing for.
Walgurdar Icelander, Barbarian Warrior of Arkane's Rebellion, (E'ci)
Pk-cursed!
Noslom
>Dundee <Dun...@spamspamspam.com> wrote:
>> Ya know how many nice magic items I've found in "normal play"? Not
>> camping but just killing mobs and *shock*, "here's one with something
>> neat!"?
>>
>> Level 35 and this has happened exactly one time. And even that was
>> from a specific named mob that just happened to spawn where I was
>> killing stuff.
>
> Whoa. That's hard to believe. My 17th level cleric has bought a
>few items, but she earned:
I know camping will never dissappear but a few tweaks could
discourage the worst kinds. As it is now a lot of items can't be
obtained by lower level players without a lot of luck because
higher levels camp them with no effort at all.
I never thought camping was that big a deal until the last
little while in permafrost. The named monsters are probably
camped all the time (which is ok) but at least half the time
it is by players who should move on to other stuff.
This would help discourage the 'I am lvl x now I have to have
item y' players and also encourage travelling to get items
before they are out of your range. If you play to get item
Y you are probably having a rotten time most of the time and
that is in my opinion how it should be as it is a poor way to
enjoy the game. From what I have seen there is enough good
magic items to go around but the higher levels coming around
and taking the stuff out of mid level dungeons creates a hugh
squeeze on the availability of those items. There needs to
be some encouragement for them to move on.
Also I am seeing more of the guild twinks, where a small number
of high levels camp one spot to aquire an item for all in
there guild who need. Fine by me as long as they have to fight
for it to some degree like the rest of us and not kill it with one spell
or a few wacks with a weapon.
Noslom
Vorlin
>Is this role-playing? Is this fun? NO. I pay the same money they do...I
play
>as often as i can....but I'd really like to have a pair of Jboots...or some
>rubicite....but I may never have it....while I see others wander by in full
>sets....I now frown on such players....I see rubicite as a badge of
>dishonor. The owners more than likely (though this isn't , of course,
always
>the case) stole...cheated....or let die other players.
<About 25k of text snipped from various posts>
Right or wrong, I can guarantee you this attitude will ruin the game for
you. If everytime you see a well-equipped player your gut churns with
anger/envy it won't be long till you stop playing. And that would be a
shame.
Brian Cully
Dundee <Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.COM> wrote:
>If they wanted to end camping they wouldn't put all the kewl loot on
>specific named mobs and then - duh - have the item only show up one
>time in three anyway. I mean that's pure genius there, isn't it?
>Kill so-n-so but, oops, this time he doesn't HAVE a head! Guess
>you'll have to hang around and kill him again. Maybe he'll have a
>head next time!
LOL. I spent all last night camping Ren`Rex waiting for Phido to spawn
in his place. Another group was camping the High Shaman waiting for
Shen's head. They'd been there six hours, killing him over and over
and over again, and never once got the head.
I killed Ren`Rex about 12 or 13 times last night to no avail.
Roleplaying is fun, isn't it? ``Yea, verily, we have smote the foul
beast, Ren`Rex, and soon he shall rise again to spread foul evil and
acrid odour across this great land! Then we shall kill him anew, and
gods be with us, the foul beast Phido should rise from his ashes
with the remains of poor lost Brother Dareb who hath been retrieved
from this horrid place many a time, only to be smote again by those
that we may smite again and again and again until we doth bug GMs
and bend them to our evil will.''
Archi Tuttle
Monk at Large (but probably in Paw for the next couple days at this rate)
Innoruuk
Vorlin
A lot of people are envious of powergamers, but the ones who are don't
understand how truly tortured this type of person is. Re-read the original
post and realize that every powergamer, all the time, is this miserable.
Powergamers are anal-retentive obsessive-compulsive paranoid control freaks
that are driven to destruction by their own inner demons. No level
satisfies them, no mob killing makes them happy, no gear will let them rest,
they have to push and push and push and push until they hate their
character, the game, Verant, and themselves. And they never realize
that -they- are their problem.
Next time you run across a powergamer, don't hate them, pity them.
Jeffrey Lin
> database, which they create items into, and our inventory lists have only
> index numbers referencing records in that central database. Such an
> architecture would make random items difficult, if not impossible, to
> implement. :/
>
> Remus Shepherd (re...@netcom.com)
I don't mean random generated items per say, but randomly appearing
PRE-generated items. Currently, each NPC/MOB has some data fields as to which
possible items it can generate, and even perhaps a % chance besides each index.
By changing what those fields from a list of indexes for certain items (ie 1465
for Dragoon Dirk, and 185 for D'vinn's Black Heart) to a list of indexes for
certain items AND treasure generator types (say -1 to -255)
A typical treasure generator type might look like this:
Type -1 (Low grade weapons)
10% rusty dagger
6% rusty axe
.
.
1% A roll in treasure type -2
While, a mid level treasure type (level 20 - 30) might look like this
10% small bronze leggings
12% small bronze helm
.
.
.
5% A roll in treasure type 30 (unique items)
Type -30
1% Dragoon Dirk
1% J Boots
1% Mask of deception
etc
etc
This method of course requires them to change data on every mob in the game.
Its hard work, but at least they don't need to change current data structures.
They need to add one datastructure which is like the lists of treasure types
above, and a generator to read and roll the dice. It shouldn't be that hard and
it just might solve the illusive camping problem. It's sure easier to predict
what will happen. No one really is certain what would happen if they make items
no drop no trade lore etc. Besides, there are less mob types than treasures. (I
think)
Jeff
Noslom
spirit wrote in message <37823CFE...@mediaone.net>...
>I disagree, try running from Greater Faydark to Qeynos for any reason
>justifiable, or maybe you want to just go to Qeynos for awhile. Do you
>know how many long hours that takes without SoW or Journeymen boots? The
I make the trip all the time, most often without any speed increase.
It is not that long of a trip, granted with boots you could play more
instead of travelling.
Have you ever concidered the lower level players in the areas you
waltz into and grab the best items from? You and players like
you make it almost impossible to get the item at the level it
is for. No I don't think you are a powergamer but itemquest
is one method of play that probably leads to the least enjoyment
of the game. This play style in my books does not need even
more encouragement (like a monster always dropping the item.)
To me the game is fine, it's the way people play sometimes (me
among them) that can make things very tedious. The worst times
I have had is when going after items. The best was when just fighting
and travelling with a group (a bard makes this a joy, at higher levels
you move significantly faster than SOW) and we have gotten a fair
number of good items. No EXP green = no magic items would
at least encourage some to move on and leave some items
for those of the level that should be getting it.
Those most pissed at all the camping are those who 'need' a
specific item (in thier mind anyway) and find others with
the same need already there. This I do not care about and
in any case is get what they deserve. I am miffed at the
high levels taking the good items out of the lower level
areas which is detrimental to the enjoyment of the game
by others.
Noslom
Noslom
> Finally, concerning your camping of the Flowing Robes, I think its
pathetic
>if you stopped anyone else from coming in and taking a shot at Najena.
This
>is the typical selfish, camping bullshit which annoys people to no end.
You
>said you were bringing in many FBR's. If this is the case, why would you
>tell another party to wait or pay you 150pp?
> I hope you never get your hands on journeyman's boots, or any other rare
>item. You deserve the same ill treatment you give other people.
This is also the type of camping a no exp green = no magic items
would hopefully help lessen. So jerks like him would not have as
much incentive to ruin the game for others.
If it would piss the ItemQuest crowd off I would see that as a bonus
as they are engaging in the worst style of play and causing a lot of
the problems. I have sometimes played in this maner (probably
all of us have) and it sucked. Any encouragement to move on I
would hope make things a little better. Will it cure camping?
No but it might help more enjoy the game
Noslom
Dundee
<david....@webline.com> wrote:
>I agree if they would put theese items as random items at higher levels. Say
>a named mob has it at level 15. At level 20 make it a rare item that spawns
>occasionally on all logical mobs. At 25 make it an uncommon item. at 30 make
>it common. This would eradicate camping for said item completly.
Yepper. Absolutely. And if the items weren't NoDrop or Lore items,
then you could even *buy* them from other players. Then there
wouldn't be even a tiny bit of camping by anyone ever unless they just
*wanted* to camp.
Brian Cully
Noslom <noslom<nospam543> wrote:
>The level range in which you still get exp is very large, and in a group it
>is even larger (you can take them out earlier.) There are no items you
>have to have for a given level. There are also equivalent items as
>you move up the scale, there are also others selling thiers as they
>move on to better items.
There are no items that you NEED in the game, that's true. However,
as a monk, I'd sure like to get my headbands and sashes (quiet,
Dundee), moreover, I want to do it legitimately. It seems a bit
silly to me to wander around asking to buy the remains of one of
my brothers. If someone gave them to me, it'd be a different issue,
but buying them is just strange. And you know what? If I want to
get the later headbands I need to get the red one, and if I choose
to kill the MOB that has the items I seek, that means I need to
camp (and so I choose the lesser of two evils).
Luckily, Paw is still empty, so I don't have to deal with campers,
but I can feel the pain of others who do.
Archi Tuttle
Monk at Large
Innoruuk
SirTifiable
Dundee wrote in message
<894928C5C96DA396.32DC0788...@lp.airnews.net>...
>>or 2) make pretty much everything no drop.
>
>the item?
>
>Dundee - http://dundee.uong.com/
The problem is not with someone camping the item once for his/her self, the
problem is with players that camp a item endlessly in order to get rich
quick. If more of the high end special items were made lore no drop no
trade and dropped every time the mob spawns, you would have to quest for
your item, but once you or your group all have the item you would then move
on and let the next player or group have their turn. which would neatly
solve the camping problem without denying someone the chance to get the item
even if they heard about it after the mob was green to them.
Just my two coppers on the issue.
SirTifiable
"of all the things I lost, I miss my mind the most"
Dundee
<sirtifiable@_REMOVETHIS_wowmail.com> wrote:
>The problem is not with someone camping the item once for his/her self, the
>problem is with players that camp a item endlessly in order to get rich
>quick.
Not for me it isn't. I don't CARE if other people camp it over and
over. I don't want to camp it. Not even one time. I'd rather buy it
from a camper. Let them camp. Let them get rich. Doesn't bother me
in the least.
From my point of view:
Old System: I don't camp, I buy.
New And Improved System: I camp.
I just don't think that is an improvement.
Sam Schlansky
<7lthof$264$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>:
>Sam Schlansky <s...@deletethis.operation3d.com> wrote in message
>news:8DFB35ABDvi...@news1.newscene.com...
>> Warning... this is VERY long. It's late, what can I say?
>>
>>Rant snipped<
>
> First off, it sounds to me like you *really* need to learn how to give
> EQ a
>break every now and then, and just relax. NO GAME should get to a point
>where you "can't see through the blood in your eyes"..this is really
>rediculous.
Well, I was a exaggerating a bit, but I WAS really pissed off, after all that
work, to get absolutely NOTHING.
> As for the journeyman's boots being ESSENTIAL...I'd like you to explain
> to
>me exactly why they are essential. I think this is crap. I have a
>level 24 necro, and I've gotten along just fine solo-ing and traveling
>great distances without J-boots (and I didn't have the benefit of being
>pals with a Druid or Shaman, so I hardly ever had SoW cast on me.). I
>know plenty of higher (30+) level characters who also do not have J
>-boots. It sounds more like these are just items you want very badly.
They're necessary to run from trains, and they're necessary to keep up with
others my level... you see, before the patch, they popped much more often,
maybe six or seven a day.
> Finally, concerning your camping of the Flowing Robes, I think its
> pathetic
>if you stopped anyone else from coming in and taking a shot at Najena.
>This is the typical selfish, camping bullshit which annoys people to no
>end. You said you were bringing in many FBR's. If this is the case,
>why would you tell another party to wait or pay you 150pp?
> I hope you never get your hands on journeyman's boots, or any other
> rare
>item. You deserve the same ill treatment you give other people.
You obviously have never camped for rare items before. In camping for rare
items, the group that was there first stays there forever. There is no sharing
of the spawn. Nobody shares Drelzna. Nobody shares the Tae Ew Templar. It just
doesn't happen. Ever.
Sam
smiller
Jboots are not as fast (not confirmed). Instead of 9 minutes it may take
12. I don't have jboots and I've survived without em, they would be nice
though. I camped for about an hour for a tommy and said, gee, this is
stupid and went out an bought a well balanced long sword (better damage
ratio but no effect) and never looked back. I was wearing banded armor past
30 and it didn't hurt me much. I have since gotten much nicer weapons than
a tommy from places that were NOT heavily camped and in once case never
camped until my group did it. Heh, I got lucky and I've even got two pieces
of rubicite armor now that I'm in the high 30's. I've also got two pieces
of armor which I deem BETTER than rubicite (which rangers can wear) from
relatively uncamped (ie dangerous) spots, one of which isn't even on any
spoiler sites :) .
The moral of this reply is simply this: go out, explore and have fun, don't
be afraid to take chances and bring some friends along... the loot will
come.
From a player still marvelling his luck at killing that RARE npc in SK while
just passing through and getting that NICE piece of LOOT.
spirit wrote:
> I disagree, try running from Greater Faydark to Qeynos for any reason
> justifiable, or maybe you want to just go to Qeynos for awhile. Do you
> know how many long hours that takes without SoW or Journeymen boots? The
> Karanas is ridicously long and boring zones to run through to get there.
> And lets not even talk about the winding moutain that never ends from
> Highpass Hold in Eastern Karans! Geez! Next best thing in many
> classes(i.e. Rangers) from banded armor is Rubicite(Walk around at
> level30 in banded? Yeah ok.). Items which are "No Drop" should spawn
> more regularly period. Its the rarity of these items in these long,
> far-off, far-from-binding, places that you MUST camp at(i.e. Journeymen
> boots). Now maybe I personally disagree with his actions with not
> letting others get a FBR but its my personal opion not anything else.
> But think about sitting there for hours on end with no spawn of the item
> you are there for. What would you do just sit there quietly and not kill
> something which spawns in its place/next to the spawning point? Come on,
> for a person to say no to that is a lier. I have sat for 20+hours
> straight for Mucktail to show his face in highpass Hold for a Tomahawke.
> Yes he did spawn: ONCE and had nothing but 12copper on him and a cloth
> veil!? And why did I camp him the following day? Cause the rarity of the
> spawn! Simply cause I sat there killing green Gnolls all day and night
> waiting for this guy to spawn and with the item I needed. Think I would
> have been outta there the minute I got my Tomahawke? You bet your ass I
> would have(And did). I hardly got any exp from anything up there besides
> maybe the occasionaly blue gnoll Flamepaw(about one an hour). Am I going
> to be classified as a "Powergamer" also for my actions? What determins
> if you are a "powergamer"? Because I loose sleep one night wanting an
> item? If thats the case, then all Everquest players are guilty of being
> one. We all have our own reasons for wanting an item or "needing" an
> item, who is anyone to justify if that person "needs" it or just wants
> it? And if its "No Drop" who cares which it is. He/she can do two things
> with it: Keep it or destroy it.
> This rant is in no way meaning to be offensive to anyone, it is just
> simply expressing my feelings and personal understanding of what was
> said.
> Revelation D'Soul, The Rathe.
>
> Martin wrote:
> >
> > On 6 Jul 1999 04:18:08 -0500, s...@deletethis.operation3d.com (Sam
> > Schlansky) wrote:
> >
> > Spoken like a true Powergamer!
> >
> > You are one of those 24/7 campers and farmers, this kind of
> > measurement is directed against. All of what you've been writing
> > just defends this measurement.
> >
> > Just a few question on your rant :
> >
> > - Why are the journeyman boots an essential item for all characters?
> > It's sure very nice to have them but essential?
> >
> > - Why do you need a full set of rubicite? These are not essential, for
> > sure.
> >
> > My 2 cents.
> >
> > Martin
Wayne Sheppard
>justifiable, or maybe you want to just go to Qeynos for awhile. Do you
>know how many long hours that takes without SoW or Journeymen boots?
It doesn't take my Bard very long at all. And my Wizard can gate.
That leaves some other classes who can't travel fast. They can always bum a
SoW from a druid or shaman. With all the requests for SoW my druid gets I
sure some people are doing this.
Wayne
SirTifiable
-snip
>Not for me it isn't. I don't CARE if other people camp it over and
>over. I don't want to camp it. Not even one time. I'd rather buy it
>from a camper. Let them camp. Let them get rich. Doesn't bother me
>in the least.
>
>From my point of view:
>
>Old System: I don't camp, I buy.
>
>New And Improved System: I camp.
>
>I just don't think that is an improvement.
>
>--
>Dundee - http://dundee.uong.com/
You have a point, I was looking at this problem from the perspective of
allowing every player a fair chance at getting the item for themselves. But
you definitely raise a valid point. As I said before hopefully Verant will
find a solution that will be palatable to most of the players.
Wayne Sheppard
As
>I'm sure you know, the Flowing Black Robes are _already_ a lore item, and
>generally go for around 150 plat on mature servers-- a fairly good reward
for
>waiting 20 minutes for a spawn, even at our level.
>
>As we were a group of two (and could easily solo Najena) we were getting a
LOT
>of flowing black robes, and after each one the wizard teleported out to
>g.faydark or cazic-thule to sell them. Yes, thats right, we were farming
out a
>green mob! Exactly what you feel is unfair! And you know what else? A group
of
>lower-level players came along and wanted to get FBR's for themselves, and
we
>told them to either wait until we got a shot at Drelzna or pay us 150 plat.
>That's right, we purposely took it for ourselves, even though there was no
>challenge in it! We're bad people... aren't we?
>
>No, we sure as hell aren't bad people. Really.
Don't you understand? You are the problem we want to eliminate. You were
camping for an item you didn't need on a mob that didn't give you exp. Not
only that, you were preventing other players from getting the robes.
If Verant makes the no exp/no loot policy, you could still have camped for
the boots and others could have nabbed the robes they were looking for.
Wayne
Hippie Ramone
: I have heard Brad say there are a lot of magic items nobody has
: found yet. I would assume that they would be on the monsters
: not camp greens in dungeons beneath your level. You
: are ruining the lower level dungeons by making the good
: magic items appropriate for lower levels there only
: obtainably by campers/farmers of higer level.
If fact a truck load of those items could be on very rare greens...
: need to move on. I think no loot at all should drop from
: a no-exp green, Brad has said it would probably be better
: to just have no magic items drop from no exp greens. Which
: I think is a good solution. I am sure they will add (if they
: have not already) items with the slightly better or the same
: abilities as the ones you say you just have to have so
: you can get what you want at a large range of levels.
Bad idea, make the items no-trade and increase the drop/spawn rate.
That puts an end to farming.
K
Hippie Ramone
: If they make everything nodrop, then won't we all HAVE to camp to get
: the item?
Yeah, but at least it will get rid of the farmers. who are IMHO
the camping folks who piss people off the most.
K
Hippie Ramone
: From my point of view:
: Old System: I don't camp, I buy.
: New And Improved System: I camp.
: I just don't think that is an improvement.
So you approve of having hordes of Uber Level characters sitting on a
spawn for 40+ hrs straight taking all the kills and pissing off untold
numbers of other paying customers?
K
Hippie Ramone
: I can't believe this guy (Brad) is wanted to force me to camp for
: stuff and thinks that will help the "camping problem".
Camping is not the real problem here...it's farming.
: Grr... Level up 15 more times and get the hell out of here, that's
: what I'm leaning towards these days. If they come up with any more
: dumbass ideas like this to "end camping" I don't think I'll make it
: that long.
It'll be bad to see ya go. Ordinarily you post somewhat well thought
out and reasonable things here.
K
Sam Schlansky
>On 6 Jul 1999 04:18:08 -0500, s...@deletethis.operation3d.com (Sam
>Schlansky) wrote:
>
>Spoken like a true Powergamer!
Yep.
>You are one of those 24/7 campers and farmers, this kind of
>measurement is directed against. All of what you've been writing
>just defends this measurement.
No, I'm not.
The measure proposed by Verant is aimed at people who camp green mobs for the
money. On the other hand, I camped the green mobs because of what I see as a
fundamental flaw in the game. I didn't have fun doing it and I would have
prefered to be ANYWHERE but there. I had nothing else to do but wait, and why
NOT fill up the time making some money? It's not like I sell it on ebay or
anything...
>Just a few question on your rant :
>
>- Why are the journeyman boots an essential item for all characters?
> It's sure very nice to have them but essential?
If you're not grouped with a shaman or druid, they're essential. You can't run
from trains without them, and every dungeon has a LOT of trains.
Beyond that, like you say, they're unbelievably convenient in taking the tedium
out of long trips, etc. Not _essential_ there, no, but auto-running along for a
half hour is boring as hell.
>- Why do you need a full set of rubicite? These are not essential, for
>sure.
Oh yes they are! In order to tank at high levels you _need_ the protection from
plate mail. Thats why Rubicite exists... so that Rogues and Rangers have a
chance at high levels. Without it, we get pounded into oblivion. AND, it's
_not_ just the extra armor class (although that is nice)... it's the damage
absorption from plate versus chain. It makes a big difference.
Sam Schlansky
>>As we were a group of two (and could easily solo Najena) we were
>>getting a LOT
>>of flowing black robes, and after each one the wizard teleported out to
>>g.faydark or cazic-thule to sell them. Yes, thats right, we were
>>farming out a
>>green mob! Exactly what you feel is unfair! And you know what else? A
>>group of
>>lower-level players came along and wanted to get FBR's for themselves,
>>and we told them to either wait until we got a shot at Drelzna or pay us
>>150
>>plat. That's right, we purposely took it for ourselves, even though
>>there was no challenge in it! We're bad people... aren't we?
>>
>>No, we sure as hell aren't bad people. Really.
>
>GOOD LORD WHAT A PRICK!!!
>If they wanted the FBRs and you didn't why the FUCK did you have to be
>such an ass hole!!! let them kill najena for heavens sake. if you had no
>use for the robes except for saleing them in the Greater faydark let's
>the people who NEED IT to get it. what a prick. people like should be
>shot repeadetly.
Obviously you've never camped for really needed items like the JBoots or
Rubicite.
You _never_ share spawns on these items. Try taking a group into Najena and
getting a shot at Drelzna... there WILL be another group there camping her,
and they will NOT share the mob with you. Try taking a group into the
throne room in Cazic-thule and asking the people already camping it
if they'll share. Not a chance in hell! That's just how it is.
Personally, I'd love it if these spots were shared, but they just aren't.
Before you go off saying I'm a prick and should be shot, please notice that
I said that they could have Najena once Drelzna opened up... we weren't
being greedy, we were just passing the time until we got our shot at her.
Sam
>oh BTW and concerning power playing
>I think that there is another type of playind :
>OBSSESIVE POWER PLAYING.
>
>I mean I try to level yup. I log in the game and look for the best XP ,
>BUT I AM NOT CONNECTED 24/7 ...
I never said I was, either. I've only been connected for over five
hours or so was during the JBoots debacle and a couple of times for
rubicite. If you want to get one of those good items, it's absolutely
necessary.
Sam Schlansky
<7lu0ld$m1o$1...@nntp6.atl.mindspring.net>:
>Sam Schlansky wrote in message
><8DFB35ABDvi...@news1.newscene.com>...
>>
>>Anyway... while we were waiting for Drelzna, we camped Rathyl and Najena.
>As
>>I'm sure you know, the Flowing Black Robes are _already_ a lore item, and
>>generally go for around 150 plat on mature servers-- a fairly good reward
>for
>>waiting 20 minutes for a spawn, even at our level.
>>
>>As we were a group of two (and could easily solo Najena) we were getting a
>LOT
>>of flowing black robes, and after each one the wizard teleported out to
>>g.faydark or cazic-thule to sell them. Yes, thats right, we were farming
>out a
>>green mob! Exactly what you feel is unfair! And you know what else? A group
>of
>>lower-level players came along and wanted to get FBR's for themselves, and
>we
>>told them to either wait until we got a shot at Drelzna or pay us 150 plat.
>>That's right, we purposely took it for ourselves, even though there was no
>>challenge in it! We're bad people... aren't we?
>>
>>No, we sure as hell aren't bad people. Really.
>
>Don't you understand? You are the problem we want to eliminate. You were
>camping for an item you didn't need on a mob that didn't give you exp. Not
>only that, you were preventing other players from getting the robes.
Yep, I realize that. In fact, I stated it. I proclaimed it. But I also said
that the problem wasn't with US... we would LOVE to be gone from there. It was
a fundamental design problem with the game.
>If Verant makes the no exp/no loot policy, you could still have camped for
>the boots and others could have nabbed the robes they were looking for.
Actually, no. Drelzna is green too.
Sam Schlansky
<7lu247$rjk$1...@jelerak.scrye.com>:
That's a simplistic answer, if you ask me. You _should_ be able to buy and
sell nice items... a player-driven economy is a GOOD thing. No-drop items
sure as hell don't help.
Sam Schlansky
Yep.
No, I'm not.
Sam
Sam Schlansky
>On 6 Jul 1999 12:09:07 GMT, mar...@bsy.de (Martin) wrote:
>
>
>>Just a few question on your rant :
>>
>>- Why are the journeyman boots an essential item for all characters?
>> It's sure very nice to have them but essential?
>>
>>- Why do you need a full set of rubicite? These are not essential, for
>>sure.
>
>I'm not high enough level to get rubicite, but from what I understand,
>its pretty much the only step for rangers after banded. If this is
>true, then I would say that rubicite IS an essential item.
Nah, thats not true. I misspoke earlier, there's SOME nice chain-based armor in
the game (brigadine tunic, mino ribcage, bloodstained, etc) as well as two
other lines of magical plate that we can wear (silvered and green-splinted).
The problem is that the brig tunic is a VERY high level item, the mino ribcage
only fits medium (ONLY fits medium, so no wood elves), bloodstained is almost
identical to normal chain and there are only two pieces. The silvered and
green-splinted armor is EXTREMELY high level, except for the silvered bracers.
(snip)
>I'm getting away from my main point, which is that fact that at level
>17 I NEED banded armor, and from what I've heard, rubicite is the only
>step above banded for rangers, and so I'm quite sure that at level 30
>or so, I will NEED ruicite. (Of course, when I get there, I'm sure
>that the place will be packed to the rafters with wizards, giving me
>no chance of getting it on my own. Then they'll offer to sell it to
>me for 500 Plat or so. Of course, since I won't have been camping
>I'll only have about 50. But thats a different story...)
Heh. If it were only so...
I would pay 500 plat for a piece of rubicite in a millisecond. A _bracer_ goes
for 1500, ONE bracer.
Legs go for 2000, arms for 5000 (very rare and just discovered, they'll come
down), boots for 2000, gloves for 2000, helmet for 2000, and the tunic...
well... I've never seen a tunic sold, ever. In fact, in general you'll only see
rubicite available for platinum very very very rarely... it's almost always
trade-only for everything but bracers.
Luckily there are nice alternatives for the boots and helmet that ARE available
at level 30. I'd go into them, but this thread has seen enough spoilers
already...
Admrl-ZEX
>As we were a group of two (and could easily solo Najena) we were getting a
LOT
>of flowing black robes, and after each one the wizard teleported out to
>g.faydark or cazic-thule to sell them. Yes, thats right, we were farming
out a
>green mob! Exactly what you feel is unfair! And you know what else? A group
of
>lower-level players came along and wanted to get FBR's for themselves, and
we
>told them to either wait until we got a shot at Drelzna or pay us 150 plat.
>That's right, we purposely took it for ourselves, even though there was no
>challenge in it! We're bad people... aren't we?
>
>No, we sure as hell aren't bad people. Really.
GOOD LORD WHAT A PRICK!!!
If they wanted the FBRs and you didn't why the FUCK did you have to be such
an ass hole!!! let them kill najena for heavens sake. if you had no use for
the robes except for saleing them in the Greater faydark let's the people
who NEED IT to get it. what a prick. people like should be shot repeadetly.
oh BTW and concerning power playing
I think that there is another type of playind :
OBSSESIVE POWER PLAYING.
I mean I try to level yup. I log in the game and look for the best XP , BUT
I AM NOT CONNECTED 24/7 ...
it's like 'The avatars of doom' on the karana server (a 35+ guild) the guild
for the people who got nnooooo life what so ever (vlad had 50days of playing
2 and a half month after the intial release.)
Silverlock
<rob...@shangri-la.oit.gatech.edu> wrote:
>> You can live without Spirit of Wolf. Really, you can.
>>
>> I'm truly beginning to hate that damned spell.
>
>Hear, hear.
>
>>
>> I have a better idea -- let's nuke Spirit of Wolf.
>>
>
>Better yet, make it so it can only be cast on oneself.
>
No either it goes entirely or not at all. All that making it self only
would do is increase the camping problems for Journeymans boots as
mentioned above.
drocket
>Just a few question on your rant :
>
>- Why are the journeyman boots an essential item for all characters?
> It's sure very nice to have them but essential?
>
>- Why do you need a full set of rubicite? These are not essential, for
>sure.
I'm not high enough level to get rubicite, but from what I understand,
its pretty much the only step for rangers after banded. If this is
true, then I would say that rubicite IS an essential item. I've
posted this info before, but I'm going to repeat it. I'm a level 17
ranger, and I have about 1/2 a set of banded. For quite a while, I
wanted to sort of roleplay and only use nonmetal armor (I just can't
see someone sneaking through the woods wearing 100 pounds of clanky
metal armor.) I've certainly discoveres that this is not even
remotely possible to do, so I've been forced to upgrade. My problem
is that I hate crowds and camping, so I tend to hunt 'out in the
wilderness.' The problem is that wandering monsters give crap loot.
If a monster gives halfway decent loot, I guarantee it spawns in one
set place and has 20 people gathered around it waiting. So while
others are camping for bronze weapons worth up to a few plat, I'm
hunting lion patriarchs that at most have pelts worth 2 gold, and
often just ruined pelts worth 8 whole coppers.
And so, I can only afford about 1-2 more pieces of banded per level
(and even then for a couple of them I had to camp to get the loot.)
Every level I get further and further behind in my ability to tank.
Why? Because I refuse to camp. This game is designed from begining
to end to force people to camp. Lets see, you can camp and get good
experience, good loot, and generally be pretty safe, or you can go out
and hunt and get good experience, crap loot, and risk death with every
step. Hmmmm...
George Ruof
>Currently, the system allows those who don't mind
>camping to "harvest" items for cash. This proposal would reverse things.
>People that like to camp and harvest won't be able to do so, and those of us
>who don't LIKE to camp will HAVE to in order to get our item before the mob
>that carries it goes green to us.
This would not stop people from harvesting items and selling them. I
think it would actually increase it.
If I'm patient enough to sit around and kill something over and over
again to sell the item I'm also smart enough to keep myself low enough
level to still get the item. As long as the on death experience penalty
exists I can stay the same level forever.
--
George Ruof gr...@pacificnet.net
Senior Programmer New World Computing
I am NOT speaking for New World Computing or the 3DO company.
George Ruof
>That's a simplistic answer, if you ask me. You _should_ be able to buy and
>sell nice items... a player-driven economy is a GOOD thing. No-drop items
>sure as hell don't help.
I like the LORE items. If you can only have one at a time it makes it
more difficult for the farmer and doesn't really impact the player who
wants one so he can use it.
No-drop items kill me. I don't wear the same gear all the time and I'd
really like to be able to put it in the bank when I am not using it.
Having to carry around a bunch of stuff I am not currently using will
just make me encumbered and cranky.
George Ruof
>P.s: How will you recognize me in game? I'm the player who heals and buffs
>for no reason....who helps for no rewards....who gives away items I no
>longer have a use for, or that I acquire and cannot use. I am the person who
>goes with you on dangerous quests...because it will make you happy and so
>that I may protect you. I am she/he who dies so that you may make the zone
>and live. I am your friend, though you may never know it. Be well all.
Amen.
Lately helping others is about the only fun I have in the game. The
evil powergamer in me does wish he could get some exp for it though. :)
Dundee
wrote:
No, but when you tell Brad that their method of placing specific items
on specific mobs (which, btw, is *why* people camp) he says he *wants*
it to be that why.
Which means he wants camping.
And that's FINE. If that's what he wants. We're in his world now.
But to go beyond that and say that he wants *me* to camp.
Screw it, I'll go play something else.
***
Dundee * http://dundee.uong.com/
Dundee
wrote:
>Dundee <Dun...@spamspamspam.com> wrote:
>: If they make everything nodrop, then won't we all HAVE to camp to get
>: the item?
>
>Yeah, but at least it will get rid of the farmers. who are IMHO
>the camping folks who piss people off the most.
No, *me* having to camp pisses me off the most. The whole EverCamp
*system* pisses me off the most. Get rid of that, or at the very
least, don't make *me* camp.
ItemX on NPCx is the problem. Nothing else is the problem. You can't
"fix" the problem by changing anything else. All you can do is make
me camp, or leave it the way it is and I don't have to camp. Or *fix
it* so that no one has to camp.
Guess which route they're choosing? Then guess what game I'll quit
playing?
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|mar...@bsy.de (Martin) wrote in <3781f016....@news.germany.net>:
|
|>You are one of those 24/7 campers and farmers, this kind of
|>measurement is directed against. All of what you've been writing
|>just defends this measurement.
|
|No, I'm not.
Yes, you are.
|The measure proposed by Verant is aimed at people who camp green mobs for the
|money. On the other hand, I camped the green mobs because of what I see as a
|fundamental flaw in the game. I didn't have fun doing it and I would have
|prefered to be ANYWHERE but there. I had nothing else to do but wait, and why
|NOT fill up the time making some money? It's not like I sell it on ebay or
|anything...
You camped the FBR's out of spite. You had no business doing it, and you
were mean to people who were there legitimately.
You ARE the problem.
|If you're not grouped with a shaman or druid, [JM boots are] essential. You can't run
|from trains without them, and every dungeon has a LOT of trains.
So you die once in a while. Big deal.
|Beyond that, like you say, they're unbelievably convenient in taking the tedium
|out of long trips, etc. Not _essential_ there, no, but auto-running along for a
|half hour is boring as hell.
And your point would be?
Venture is doing Fletching right now. Since the anti-tedium patch had the
side effect of making the skill five times more expensive to raise, he's going
through platinum like shot through a goose. The only effective way I've found
so far to raise the necessary cash is to hunt Wisps, and the only effective
hunting ground I've found for them is East Commonlands. (Erud's Crossing
seems to have been tuned way, way down.) Problem: where are the Fletching
supplies? That's right, Surefall Glade and Kelethin. So I've been running
between East Commons and Surefall Glade, with stopovers in Everfrost to pick
up Archery by rooting Orcish Mountaneers and Mammoth Calves and shooting at
them. At absolutely no point in this cycle do I ever have SoW.
I say this so that you'll know where I'm coming from. I'm transiting
Antonica on a frequent basis, once per day or so, and without the "necessary"
SoW. So just get over yourself, OK? You don't NEED the damned boots.
|Oh yes they are! In order to tank at high levels you _need_ the protection from
|plate mail. Thats why Rubicite exists... so that Rogues and Rangers have a
|chance at high levels. Without it, we get pounded into oblivion. AND, it's
|_not_ just the extra armor class (although that is nice)... it's the damage
|absorption from plate versus chain. It makes a big difference.
I'm willing to be that in reality, Rubicite is just as "necessary" as JM
boots.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture (E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"There's no easy way to be free."
-- Pete Townshend, "Slip Kid"
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|If I'm patient enough to sit around and kill something over and over
|again to sell the item I'm also smart enough to keep myself low enough
|level to still get the item. As long as the on death experience penalty
|exists I can stay the same level forever.
Perhaps, but you won't be grossly more powerful than the other people
trying to get the same item and won't be able to blast the poor mob to
smithereens in 0.2 seconds.
David Schrank
no exp. and be easy. At that point why not make it rare loot on a
monster say 10 levels harder to kill? this would relieve a large amount
of the camping.
I would rather kill stuff where its not mobbed and get the items later.
I do how ever want the items even though I have to buy them at over
inflated prices. Some one tried to sell me a screaming mace for 200
plat! This is not a price set due to the difficulty of the mob. This is
due to the number of people that prevent me from getting it my self!
You have to admit this situation is just wrong.
Brad McQuaid wrote:
>
> Remus Shepherd wrote:
>
> > Jeffrey Lin <j...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > How about this:
> > >
> > > Randomly generate artifacts/loots. Named critter has a higher chance of
> > > generating better stuff, or a different "class" of treasure ala AD&D.
> > >
> >
>
> --
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Brad McQuaid
> Producer, EverQuest www.everquest.com
> Vice President, Verant Interactive Inc.
> ---------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
Remus Shepherd wrote:
> Jeffrey Lin <j...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > How about this:
> >
> > Randomly generate artifacts/loots. Named critter has a higher chance of
> > generating better stuff, or a different "class" of treasure ala AD&D.
> >
>
> This has been offered before as the solution to the problem. Random
> items would allow a wide variety of roughly equivalent items to exist,
> and so people would not camp one monster looking for one particular item.
> If boots, capes, and rings could have a random chance of having a SOW effect
> (or some other effects chosen randomly from a list), and these items
> appeared randomly throughout Solusek, there'd be no camping going on --
> just mobile hunting and exploration.
>
> Unfortunately, the randomly-generated item idea has been passed about
> so many times, and ignored by Verant so many times, that I think there must
> be a limitation preventing them from doing something like this. I don't
> think they can have random items. They probably have a central item
> database, which they create items into, and our inventory lists have only
> index numbers referencing records in that central database. Such an
> architecture would make random items difficult, if not impossible, to
> implement. :/
>
> .... ...
> Remus Shepherd (re...@netcom.com)
The limitation, honestly, is that fact that this would totally destroy any
identity to items and also eliminate static encounters, which would pretty much
render dungeons useless. Not only would named items become meaningless, there
would be no reason to explore, and no reason to fight to depths of a dungeon.
Everyone would just find the easiest and closest place to kill NPCs that aren't
so tough, and kill them repeatedly, hoping that a random cool item would
appear. You wouldn't care about inspecting a player because the items on
him/her would be meaningless. A polar bear cloak having protection from cold?
No, it's just random cloak #742. It wasn't found in EverFrost, because location
is meaningless. It wasn't part of a quest involving Polar Bear pelts, because
it's just a random creation. I didn't even need to travel to EverFrost, because
if I just kill enough NPCs of a specific level long enough, I'll eventually get
the combination of attributes on an item that I for some reason desire. Fight
my way through a treacherous set of encounters to eventually stand toe to toe
with the Effreeti Lord? Nah. No reason. I can get his Flaming Mace (or
actually, random blunt weapon #674 that casts random fire based spell #33) from
any similarly leveled NPC anywhere in Norrath.
That is definitely NOT the game we set out to make.
I also respectfully disagree with the first poster -- that's not the D&D I used
to play. When we went through a campaign it was very much like EQ -- wandering
NPCs would spawn from random treasure tables just like EQ (for example, the
occasional Ice Goblin in Permafrost spawning with a piece of Ringmail or Bronze
Plate, or even a Rune or other spell component), and then special, typically
named NPCs with the better, special items. That was our incentive for exploring
the various dungeons or other areas -- to gain experience, to find the treasure,
to solve the quests and puzzles.
Brad McQuaid
Permafrost have a chance to load with Ringmail or Bronze Plate or a spell component,
etc.
What we don't do, though, is put special named items in regular treasure tables.
That's because we want encounters where we know you had to fight to a certain point
in order to have the chance to obtain a special item. We also want context to an
item -- we want people to know that a certain item comes from a certain NPC, and
there is often a story behind why the NPC has that item.
What we don't want, and I went into more detail regarding this in another post, is
for the player to just sit there and kill an NPC anywhere in the world in a specific
level range and eventually get whatever item he is looking for. We want travel, we
want exploration, and we want special items to have meaning and context.
Jeffrey Lin wrote:
> > I don't think they can have random items. They probably have a central item
> > database, which they create items into, and our inventory lists have only
> > index numbers referencing records in that central database. Such an
> > architecture would make random items difficult, if not impossible, to
> > implement. :/
> >
> > .... ...
> > Remus Shepherd (re...@netcom.com)
>
> I don't mean random generated items per say, but randomly appearing
> PRE-generated items. Currently, each NPC/MOB has some data fields as to which
> possible items it can generate, and even perhaps a % chance besides each index.
>
> By changing what those fields from a list of indexes for certain items (ie 1465
> for Dragoon Dirk, and 185 for D'vinn's Black Heart) to a list of indexes for
> certain items AND treasure generator types (say -1 to -255)
>
> A typical treasure generator type might look like this:
>
> Type -1 (Low grade weapons)
> 10% rusty dagger
> 6% rusty axe
> .
> .
> 1% A roll in treasure type -2
>
> While, a mid level treasure type (level 20 - 30) might look like this
>
> 10% small bronze leggings
> 12% small bronze helm
> .
> .
> .
> 5% A roll in treasure type 30 (unique items)
>
> Type -30
> 1% Dragoon Dirk
> 1% J Boots
> 1% Mask of deception
> etc
> etc
>
> This method of course requires them to change data on every mob in the game.
> Its hard work, but at least they don't need to change current data structures.
> They need to add one datastructure which is like the lists of treasure types
> above, and a generator to read and roll the dice. It shouldn't be that hard and
> it just might solve the illusive camping problem. It's sure easier to predict
> what will happen. No one really is certain what would happen if they make items
> no drop no trade lore etc. Besides, there are less mob types than treasures. (I
> think)
>
> Jeff
Kerry Jane
> The limitation, honestly, is that fact that this would totally
> destroy any identity to items and also eliminate static
> encounters, which would pretty much render dungeons
> useless.
Why? What is a dungeon to you, Brad? I mean, really, i'm honestly
asking... can you explain what you think dungeons should be?
I think of dungeons as another place to hunt. I don't think of them as
Phat Lewt Phactories.
> Not only would named items become meaningless, there
> would be no reason to explore, and no reason to fight
> to depths of a dungeon.
I think your definition of 'explore' and my definition of 'explore' are two
totally and completely different things. Will you state your definition of
'explore' please?
According to Mirriam Webster, the definition of explore is: "to travel over
(new territory) for adventure or discovery." I agree with that definition.
I believe that either a) there are not *nearly* enough dungeons in
EverQuest, or b) the dungeons were *not* designed for exploration. How can
you explore something when you only can get so far in before you get your
butt kicked by red monsters? How can you explore a dungeon when once
you've been through, you know that a Goblin Warrior is going to spawn right
[*points*] there in exactly 2 minutes and 47 seconds?
I dunno, I just think that takes a whole lot of the adventure right out of
the whole thing.
> Everyone would just find the easiest and closest place to kill
> NPCs that aren't so tough, and kill them repeatedly, hoping
> that a random cool item would appear.
Brad, dear, this is exactly what people do now, except that the lines are
longer and the mobs are fewer.
> You wouldn't care about inspecting a player because the
> items on him/her would be meaningless.
Items are meaningless anyway. All items show now is how much camping that
person was willing to do. When I see a person with shiny red pants on, I
don't think, "Oooh... what a mighty warrior! He has rubicite greaves!" I
think, "Freaking camper..."
It gets to the point where i wish i could turn the "Auto-Snoop" option
*off* so I didn't have to look at these items that these campers have
harvested.
> A polar bear cloak having protection from cold? No, it's
> just random cloak #742. It wasn't found in EverFrost,
> because location is meaningless.
Big Freaking Deal. Why make the Polar Bear Cloak the *only*
protection-from-cold cloak? Why not make several, in different
shapes/sizes/colors (not that you'd ever notice, since cloaks don't paper
doll), and let some spawn in Everfrost, and some spawn in Permafrost, and
another one spawn Somewhere Else? And make some of them spawn on Wandering
Mobs, once in a blue moon (say, every 24-36 hours - and the spawn time
should be random too, dammit).
> I didn't even need to travel to EverFrost, because if I
> just kill enough NPCs of a specific level long enough, I'll
> eventually get the combination of attributes on an item
> that I for some reason desire.
I do that now. I have a lockjaw vest and I've never even seen lockjaw. I
have gnoll earrings and only went to blackburrow once, never seeing the
Elites or whatever the heck gives them. I have two dervish rings, and have
only once ever killed a dervish, and I didn't get a ring.
I kill enough NPCs of a specific level (whatever /cons blue), get the
money, and buy the damn things from somebody else... because I *refuse* to
camp.
--
The Famed Janey, Master Warrior
Remove the Four
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/9496
Hippie Ramone
: And that's FINE. If that's what he wants. We're in his world now.
Brad needs to really stop thinking of EQ as his personal playgound and
start thinking of how to keep his customer base happy.
K
Hippie Ramone
: There does how ever come a point where going to said dungeon would get
: no exp. and be easy. At that point why not make it rare loot on a
: monster say 10 levels harder to kill? this would relieve a large amount
: of the camping.
This would lead to the overwatch wizard farmer who herds a bunch of
appropriately leveled friends to take the critter to 50%+1 damage to
earn the kill and then destroys it. Farms the lootage, gates out,
auctions or passes to he buddy to auction, gates back, rinse repeat,
thereby dicking those of use who would like to _earn_ via combat and
claim said kwelloot as our own.
K
Hippie Ramone
: I like the LORE items. If you can only have one at a time it makes it
: more difficult for the farmer and doesn't really impact the player who
: wants one so he can use it.
: No-drop items kill me. I don't wear the same gear all the time and I'd
: really like to be able to put it in the bank when I am not using it.
: Having to carry around a bunch of stuff I am not currently using will
: just make me encumbered and cranky.
I'm really proposing a class of no-trade, would let you bank it, but not
trade it and if dropped on the ground gone.
K
Hippie Ramone
: No, *me* having to camp pisses me off the most. The whole EverCamp
: *system* pisses me off the most. Get rid of that, or at the very
: least, don't make *me* camp.
Hmmm ok, well farmers piss me off. If I decide I want an item it's more
because I like the way it looks on my character than for utilitarian reasons.
If I want it I will camp it. I'd rather not have to duke it out with
hordes farmers to get those things. Matter of fact I haven't gone for
the FBR yet mainliy because when I do, I want to do it in as short
a time as possible and if that means KS'ing from some L18-22s when I'm
L30 in Naj so be it. I'll get it, and then I'll be gone.
K
Twilight
<noslom<nospam543>@promaxis.com> wrote:
>Ingot Head wrote in message <37822...@news.iglou.com>...
>>Actually, although I agree with some of this post, I could see how the "no
>>lore items when mob is green" could help. I have a few problems with it
>>though:
>>
>>It forces you to get your magic item in a very narrow range of levels.
>
>
>I have heard Brad say there are a lot of magic items nobody has
>found yet. I would assume that they would be on the monsters
>in the higher level dungeons where you SHOULD BE. You should
>not camp greens in dungeons beneath your level. You
>are ruining the lower level dungeons by making the good
>magic items appropriate for lower levels there only
>obtainably by campers/farmers of higer level.
>
>There are enough items that I have seen in all the dungeons
>and a lot can't be gotten by a group of the appropriate level
>because of the high level farmer/campers. The higher levels
>need to move on. I think no loot at all should drop from
>a no-exp green, Brad has said it would probably be better
>to just have no magic items drop from no exp greens. Which
>I think is a good solution. I am sure they will add (if they
>have not already) items with the slightly better or the same
>abilities as the ones you say you just have to have so
>you can get what you want at a large range of levels.
>
>Noslom
they arent the items mcquaid is saying about is those really rare once
in a life times you will see mobs " that may carry the items" that
comes from time to time in the biggest and least populated areas. like
an example. Crookstinger. never seen it. the equestrian. I am one of a
handful of players that has ever seen this beast. Like scourge in
south ro or even the spore guardian. been a troll and hunted there for
10 12 lvls. never seen this beast once. In fact i know of 1 person who
has seen it. out of maybe 50 odd ogres and trolls.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war , a world without hate . And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it. " -Jack Handey
Twilight
>
>>Also some greens later on still give exp, these would still drop magic
>>items. From my thinking if the you can walk by the monster without
>>them attacking (a nice perk) not getting magic items would be the price
>>you pay for this perk.
>
>And if you get low in hp's or meditate or for that matter, just sit
>down, then a lot of times they WILL attack.
>
>One thing made camping exist and one thing will make it go away and
>all these fiction-busting anti-camping kludges just force MORE people
>to camp.
>
>I'd rather buy stuff from campers than camp myself.
>
>Ya know how many nice magic items I've found in "normal play"? Not
>camping but just killing mobs and *shock*, "here's one with something
>neat!"?
>
>Level 35 and this has happened exactly one time. And even that was
>from a specific named mob that just happened to spawn where I was
>killing stuff.
>
>Verant put *all* of the good magic items on specific named mobs. That
>is the problem. That always will be the problem. The "fix" is to NOT
>DO THAT.
>
>Sorry, I'm ranting, but all these "let's make Dundee camp, too"-ideas
>are really getting to me.
>
>--
>Dundee - http://dundee.uong.com/
i do agree with dundee here the way to stop camping and harvesting is
to not put the items on mobs . end of story. but since mcquaid and co
want to put it on mobs then ppl tell them to increase the number of
items and npcs so to spread the campers. dont have to make them better
just make them more , identical to a current item and different to the
a current items
that way the campers get spread out the so called player economy can
run itself with different variety and ppl like dundee dont have to
camp.he did have more choice too. And forget the crap about putting
the items on rarely appearing mobs inthe middle of nowhere. it just
makes ppl ( the camper and farmers ) ignore them and concentrate on
the main spots. Which incidently is the bestplace to party for xp.
and since these places are nice and well known and convenient it is
easier to group there. So whats verants problem? ???? no idea they
just cant seem to understand what our problem is. must be because they
like " brad can clean dungeons out " ....wtf????
SirTifiable
-snip
>
>: No-drop items kill me. I don't wear the same gear all the time and I'd
>: really like to be able to put it in the bank when I am not using it.
>: Having to carry around a bunch of stuff I am not currently using will
>: just make me encumbered and cranky.
>
>I'm really proposing a class of no-trade, would let you bank it, but not
>trade it and if dropped on the ground gone.
>
>K
Excuse my ignorance, not having J-boots yet I may be a bit confused. Are
you saying that J-boots cannot be put in the bank? The bank is just a
extension of your inventory, why wouldn't you be able to bank a item just
because it is no trade?
SirTifiable
"of all the things I lost, I miss my mind the most"
Twilight
wrote:
<snip>
>
>What we don't want, and I went into more detail regarding this in another post, is
>for the player to just sit there and kill an NPC anywhere in the world in a specific
>level range and eventually get whatever item he is looking for. We want travel, we
>want exploration, and we want special items to have meaning and context.
<snip>
really? then why is everyone camping? oh wait a minute why is everyone
camping for items also killing everything else.
havent figured that out have we ? I suggest mcquiad you and the
design team take a look at the players ranting and raving over ht
usenet and all. EQ actually means EVERCAMP for alot if not most
regular players.
i will say this again. PPl arent traveling and exploring. Ppl are
camping. get that? CAMPING.
encourage us to travel and we will. Keep the current system and we
will camp. and Farm . And its no good telling us not to do it if your
system is biased against it. And you will lose players like Dundee and
others who are beginning to see the very ugly side of camping. 2 teams
in cazic thule. if one team gets into trouble the other team is will
hide and grin . Why because the competition is getting killed. which
is good for them . Oh you think that ppl will complain? nope ppl wont
because everyone has accepted it as a necessary evil. Oh wait a min
maybe if the group gets duplicates they will sell it. NAH have you
ever seen anyone selll rubicite? If so why is it its from the same
players? oh if you want it then you will be facing the farmer. who is
all likelyhood is of extreme lvl compared to the mob. theres always
other characters that a player has that can benefit from the items
too. EG rubicite.
think about it mcquaid . This system is not working well .
I seen 2 solutions that will work. one dont have the items spawned on
a named npc. you said many times no to this then fine.try this
increase the number of items to the current ones. Not identical but
with identical stats with small variances. Put them somewhere else.
Spread the campers , give the market more choice and ease the crowding
on certain zones. Do this and the camping will slowly go away. it wont
be a short term solution but it will be a good long term one. And
telling us its on the next expansion cd will just burn a bunch of
players off. I would say your optimum number of players is 1000-1200 ,
1500 is already way beyond the limit for most servers. And please the
idea of putting the items on some rare spawn in the middle of nowhere
does NOT ease camping.
Vorlin
Since he's shown no signs of thinking that way, and since EQ is full of
customers, I'd say that entire statement is without merit.
Sam Schlansky
<052C50E983D36AA0.951D5092...@lp.airnews.net>:
>s...@deletethis.operation3d.com (Sam Schlansky) wrote:
>
>>That's a simplistic answer, if you ask me. You _should_ be able to buy and
>>sell nice items... a player-driven economy is a GOOD thing. No-drop items
>>sure as hell don't help.
>
>I like the LORE items. If you can only have one at a time it makes it
>more difficult for the farmer and doesn't really impact the player who
>wants one so he can use it.
>
>No-drop items kill me. I don't wear the same gear all the time and I'd
>really like to be able to put it in the bank when I am not using it.
>Having to carry around a bunch of stuff I am not currently using will
>just make me encumbered and cranky.
Can't you put no-drop items in the bank? I was under the impression that they
had to stay IN YOUR POSSESSION... whether in the bank or on your person... so
you can't drop them on the ground or trade them with other players, but you CAN
bank em.
Of course I don't know since I don't have any.
Sam Schlansky
<A2377AF2F1E9F432.1566709B...@lp.airnews.net>:
>On 6 Jul 1999 23:06:54 GMT, Hippie Ramone <kde...@jelerak.scrye.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Dundee <Dun...@spamspamspam.com> wrote:
>>: If they make everything nodrop, then won't we all HAVE to camp to get
>>: the item?
>>
>>Yeah, but at least it will get rid of the farmers. who are IMHO
>>the camping folks who piss people off the most.
>
>No, *me* having to camp pisses me off the most. The whole EverCamp
>*system* pisses me off the most. Get rid of that, or at the very
>least, don't make *me* camp.
>
>ItemX on NPCx is the problem. Nothing else is the problem. You can't
>"fix" the problem by changing anything else. All you can do is make
>me camp, or leave it the way it is and I don't have to camp. Or *fix
>it* so that no one has to camp.
YES YES YES YES YES.
That's what I was trying to say... I think my problem is that I took 20
pages to say what you did in two paragraphs. That's exactly the problem.
All of these patches are treating the symptoms and not the disease.
Sam
Sam Schlansky
<7lv0c4$pjc$6...@jelerak.scrye.com>:
>Dundee <Dundee@nononotthespam!.com> wrote:
>: No, *me* having to camp pisses me off the most. The whole EverCamp
>: *system* pisses me off the most. Get rid of that, or at the very
>: least, don't make *me* camp.
>
>Hmmm ok, well farmers piss me off. If I decide I want an item it's more
>because I like the way it looks on my character than for utilitarian
>reasons. If I want it I will camp it. I'd rather not have to duke it
>out with hordes farmers to get those things. Matter of fact I haven't
>gone for the FBR yet mainliy because when I do, I want to do it in as
>short a time as possible and if that means KS'ing from some L18-22s when
>I'm L30 in Naj so be it. I'll get it, and then I'll be gone.
No... nothing in what I said in any way condones killstealing... if you
want to KS, thats up to you, but I never do it and I don't condone doing
it either.
Level 22's would have a very tough time with Najena, even with a full
group. I'd wait until you're level 25 and then go in there... Najena
herself isn't heavily camped, and you'll be able to get experience from
Bonecracker, the Ogre captain, and many others in the zone.
Sam Schlansky
<3785d12d.118968474@news>:
>On 6 Jul 1999 20:06:10 -0500, s...@deletethis.operation3d.com (Sam
>Schlansky) wrote:
>
>|mar...@bsy.de (Martin) wrote in <3781f016....@news.germany.net>:
>|
>|>You are one of those 24/7 campers and farmers, this kind of
>|>measurement is directed against. All of what you've been writing
>|>just defends this measurement.
>|
>|No, I'm not.
>
> Yes, you are.
No, I'm not.
>|The measure proposed by Verant is aimed at people who camp green mobs
>|for the money. On the other hand, I camped the green mobs because of
>|what I see as a fundamental flaw in the game. I didn't have fun doing
>|it and I would have prefered to be ANYWHERE but there. I had nothing
>|else to do but wait, and why NOT fill up the time making some money?
>|It's not like I sell it on ebay or anything...
>
> You camped the FBR's out of spite. You had no business doing it,
> and you
>were mean to people who were there legitimately.
>
> You ARE the problem.
No, I'm not.
My group got to Najena first, and we stayed there until Drelzna opened up.
If you go to (the dungeon) Najena RIGHT NOW... WHENEVER IT IS THAT YOU ARE
READING THIS... with a full group, you will find Drelzna camped. If you ask
the group currently camping her (and there WILL BE ONE) to share her with
you, they WILL say no. That's how it's done. It just is.
I did not camp the FBR's out of spite. I had a perfectly valid reason to do
it. I was not mean to the other group that came along, I just said they had
to wait until we were done or pay 150 plat (a reasonable price, the going
price for FBR's on our server) to get one.
>|If you're not grouped with a shaman or druid, [JM boots are] essential.
>|You can't run from trains without them, and every dungeon has a LOT of
>|trains.
>
> So you die once in a while. Big deal.
Yes, it is.
>|Beyond that, like you say, they're unbelievably convenient in taking
>|the tedium out of long trips, etc. Not _essential_ there, no, but auto
>|-running along for a half hour is boring as hell.
>
> And your point would be?
>
> Venture is doing Fletching right now. Since the anti-tedium patch
> had the
>side effect of making the skill five times more expensive to raise, he's
>going through platinum like shot through a goose. The only effective
>way I've found so far to raise the necessary cash is to hunt Wisps, and
>the only effective hunting ground I've found for them is East
>Commonlands. (Erud's Crossing seems to have been tuned way, way down.)
>Problem: where are the Fletching supplies? That's right, Surefall Glade
>and Kelethin. So I've been running between East Commons and Surefall
>Glade, with stopovers in Everfrost to pick up Archery by rooting Orcish
>Mountaneers and Mammoth Calves and shooting at them. At absolutely no
>point in this cycle do I ever have SoW.
>
> I say this so that you'll know where I'm coming from. I'm
> transiting
>Antonica on a frequent basis, once per day or so, and without the
>"necessary" SoW. So just get over yourself, OK? You don't NEED the
>damned boots.
Good for you, you're a fucking martyr to your cause.
Do you enjoy the half-hour long trek every day? Is it fun?
>|Oh yes they are! In order to tank at high levels you _need_ the
>|protection from plate mail. Thats why Rubicite exists... so that Rogues
>|and Rangers have a chance at high levels. Without it, we get pounded
>|into oblivion. AND, it's _not_ just the extra armor class (although
>|that is nice)... it's the damage absorption from plate versus chain. It
>|makes a big difference.
>
> I'm willing to be that in reality, Rubicite is just as "necessary"
> as JM
>boots.
Yes, Rubicite IS just as necessary as JBoots.
Sam Schlansky
<3782ECAD...@verant.com>:
>We already do what you're talking about -- for example, the Ice Goblins
>in Permafrost have a chance to load with Ringmail or Bronze Plate or a
>spell component, etc.
Yes, random crappy loot that you sell or trade off at the first available
oppurtunity.
>What we don't do, though, is put special named items in regular treasure
>tables. That's because we want encounters where we know you had to fight
>to a certain point in order to have the chance to obtain a special item.
And you don't see any way to get around that? Are you serious?
Obviously you can choose which kinds of creatures spawn in particular
locations, and you can choose their rate of spawn. It's easy.
Only have Rubicite spawn on lizards that are level 35 and above, about as
rarely as bronze platemail spawns on GDB's in Unrest. Then make it so that
for every Lizard Fanatic/Zealot in a spot, there's a 10% chance that a
higher-level (35) Lizard Armorer (or whatever) spawns instead. Instant
Rubicite fix. It'd be considerably rarer than bronze platemail, it'd still
be rather difficult to get, but there wouldn't be a SIX HOUR LONG list to
get in a group camping one mob.
Now, I _do_ agree that it's extremely cool to kill a named monster and know
that you're going to have cool loot off of him. So, instead of having
monster(lizard_armorer) have class(lizard_carries_ruby)... with the Lizard
Armorer, the Lizard Wizard, the Lizard Jouster, the Lizard Gladiator,
whatever. Put about fifty of em in, change their stats so they're all
different, and bravo! You've made Cazic a much cooler place to be.
> We also want context to an item -- we want people to know that a
>certain item comes from a certain NPC, and there is often a story behind
>why the NPC has that item.
A STORY? That's the excuse?
Let me ask you a question... which items that come off an NPC's corpse (ie,
the vast majority, 99.999999% of decent stuff) have a story? Please, oh
please, name one.
Does Ghoulbane have a story? Is it the story of how the mighty noble
paladin killed ANOTHER paladin to get the only decent holy sword in his
level range? Is that the story?
Maybe there's a book describing the history of the Tae Ew templars and the
creation of the mystical Rubicite armor, predating the Combine Empire,
where a particular crimson ore was blessed by the Lord of Fear himself.
Perhaps Phenix Mucktail has a grimy letter in his smelly paws speaking of
how the Polished Granite Tomahawk has been the chosen weapon of gnoll
champions for the past century.
Or maybe not.
A story my ass. That was just so ridiculous I had to comment. Gimme a
break.
It is a nice idea though. Why not have a story with each and every lore
item? Just write up a paragraph describing the history of the item, and
when a character rightclicks on it, have it show up. Nothing fancy, just
like "This Mace of Death was created in the Year 1262 by the great mage
Leonig Arkansas. It carries his symbol at the bottom, stating that it was
the bestest mace known in the whole wide world. There is a curious design
on the handle that you cannot decipher, and it tingles slightly in your
hand, as if eager to destroy your enemies."
Buy a copy of Might and Magic 7 and look at their item descriptions... it's
an easy and cheap way to add a lot of atmosphere to your world.
>What we don't want, and I went into more detail regarding this in
>another post, is for the player to just sit there and kill an NPC
>anywhere in the world in a specific level range and eventually get
>whatever item he is looking for.
That's fine; thats admirable; thats a good idea.
So you create a pool of items in each zone to pick from. You get prot from
cold stuff in Permafrost, you get fire stuff in soldungb, you get disease
stuff in Unrest, all tuned to the level of the monster. Then, make em rare
loots on that monster, and you're all set.
Yes, it'll take some manpower to program this in, but hey, why not actually
enhance the game, right?
>We want travel, we want exploration,
I "explored" Permafrost, the dungeon that you said your "group of lvl 21's
LIVED IN". My level 35 character was nuked at the zone by a Dire Wolf who
hit in the hundreds.
Everquest does not promote travel. Everquest does not promote exploration.
Everquest DOES promote staying at one well-known dungeon until every
monster in it is green and then moving on to the next. That's how it's
designed, and it's a flaw.
You say that you play your own game. Somehow I doubt it.
>and we want special items to have meaning and context.
Well then, you'd better get to work, eh?
Martin
wrote:
>The limitation, honestly, is that fact that this would totally destroy any
>identity to items and also eliminate static encounters, which would pretty much
>render dungeons useless. Not only would named items become meaningless, there
>would be no reason to explore, and no reason to fight to depths of a dungeon.
>Everyone would just find the easiest and closest place to kill NPCs that aren't
>so tough, and kill them repeatedly, hoping that a random cool item would
>appear. You wouldn't care about inspecting a player because the items on
>him/her would be meaningless. A polar bear cloak having protection from cold?
>No, it's just random cloak #742. It wasn't found in EverFrost, because location
>is meaningless. It wasn't part of a quest involving Polar Bear pelts, because
>it's just a random creation. I didn't even need to travel to EverFrost, because
>if I just kill enough NPCs of a specific level long enough, I'll eventually get
>the combination of attributes on an item that I for some reason desire. Fight
>my way through a treacherous set of encounters to eventually stand toe to toe
>with the Effreeti Lord? Nah. No reason. I can get his Flaming Mace (or
>actually, random blunt weapon #674 that casts random fire based spell #33) from
>any similarly leveled NPC anywhere in Norrath.
>
>That is definitely NOT the game we set out to make.
I agree with you in this point, but I'd rather have it the upper way,
than having to put up with about 100 other people who look all for the
same artifact, in the same place, on the same mob.
Maybe there should be some "lesser" versions of unique items.
e.g. the Runed Totem Staff. Why not create an item with a similiar
strength, but other name, which is found on random mobs,more often
than the RTS.
If I get the RTS out of the dungeon, I have achieved something.
If not, at least I have a common item, which is almost as good as the
RTS, but not that unique.
Martin
jaro...@my-deja.com
(okay maybe not as bad as killstealing from tanks ;)). I spent two days
camping for the Tommie and was having a terrible time. See the spawn,
jump it, pray a wiz or magician isn't nearby....crap. I gave up and
found other things to do azamingly I've had more fun and managed to get
two levels and, though purchase or kills, a Dragoon Drik, dwarven axe,
bloodstained mantle, a purity belt, and still have 80 plat. All of
this in other places all in one week. A friend of mine is STILL in
highpass waiting for the tommie making no xp and complaining about the
kill stealing wizes.
Morale of the story is no single "needed" item is worth what you give
up in the camping time.
-JimR
p.s. If any rangers and such haven't already figured it out the Dragoon
Dirk is better than the Tommie for dam/dly just no bersereker effect.
Practice that piercing skill.
In article <1Ltg3.5201$m4.18...@news.magma.ca>,
"Noslom" <noslom<nospam543>@promaxis.com> wrote:
>
> spirit wrote in message <37823CFE...@mediaone.net>...
> >I disagree, try running from Greater Faydark to Qeynos for any reason
> >justifiable, or maybe you want to just go to Qeynos for awhile. Do
you
> >know how many long hours that takes without SoW or Journeymen boots?
The
>
> I make the trip all the time, most often without any speed increase.
> It is not that long of a trip, granted with boots you could play more
> instead of travelling.
>
> Have you ever concidered the lower level players in the areas you
> waltz into and grab the best items from? You and players like
> you make it almost impossible to get the item at the level it
> is for. No I don't think you are a powergamer but itemquest
> is one method of play that probably leads to the least enjoyment
> of the game. This play style in my books does not need even
> more encouragement (like a monster always dropping the item.)
>
> To me the game is fine, it's the way people play sometimes (me
> among them) that can make things very tedious. The worst times
> I have had is when going after items. The best was when just fighting
> and travelling with a group (a bard makes this a joy, at higher levels
> you move significantly faster than SOW) and we have gotten a fair
> number of good items. No EXP green = no magic items would
> at least encourage some to move on and leave some items
> for those of the level that should be getting it.
>
> Those most pissed at all the camping are those who 'need' a
> specific item (in thier mind anyway) and find others with
> the same need already there. This I do not care about and
> in any case is get what they deserve. I am miffed at the
> high levels taking the good items out of the lower level
> areas which is detrimental to the enjoyment of the game
> by others.
>
> Noslom
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|dfra...@email.com (Dennis Francis Heffernan) wrote in
|<3785d12d.118968474@news>:
|My group got to Najena first, and we stayed there until Drelzna opened up.
|If you go to (the dungeon) Najena RIGHT NOW... WHENEVER IT IS THAT YOU ARE
|READING THIS... with a full group, you will find Drelzna camped. If you ask
|the group currently camping her (and there WILL BE ONE) to share her with
|you, they WILL say no. That's how it's done. It just is.
Which does not justify shoddy behavior on your part.
|I did not camp the FBR's out of spite.
Yes, you did.
|I had a perfectly valid reason to do it.
Petulance? Hardly valid.
|I was not mean to the other group that came along, I just said they had
|to wait until we were done or pay 150 plat (a reasonable price, the going
|price for FBR's on our server) to get one.
Which is being mean.
|>|If you're not grouped with a shaman or druid, [JM boots are] essential.
|>|You can't run from trains without them, and every dungeon has a LOT of
|>|trains.
|>
|> So you die once in a while. Big deal.
|
|Yes, it is.
Well, no it isn't. So you lose some EP. They're not running out of mobs;
you can always get more.
|Do you enjoy the half-hour long trek every day? Is it fun?
A lot more fun than a dimensionless world would be...been there, done
that.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|I seen 2 solutions that will work.
No, they won't.
The reason people camp is because they're assholes. They will continue to
be assholes no matter what Mr. McQuaid does; whatever the new system is
they'll minmax it and then whine that what they're doing is boring and stupid.
STOPPING just won't occur to them.
I can't remember which one, but one of the motivational speakers I had to
listen to over the years compared this kind of behavior to hitting yourself in
the head with a hammer repeatedly. "You're there screaming in pain, and
people come up to you and say 'what's wrong!', and you say 'I'm hitting myself
in the head with a hammer!' What do you think they're going to say? 'Well,
STOP!'"
But people want the kEwL items, and they'll take instant gratification
over enlightened self-interest any day.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|Only have Rubicite spawn on lizards that are level 35 and above, about as
|rarely as bronze platemail spawns on GDB's in Unrest. Then make it so that
|for every Lizard Fanatic/Zealot in a spot, there's a 10% chance that a
|higher-level (35) Lizard Armorer (or whatever) spawns instead. Instant
|Rubicite fix. It'd be considerably rarer than bronze platemail, it'd still
|be rather difficult to get, but there wouldn't be a SIX HOUR LONG list to
|get in a group camping one mob.
There would be a six hour long list to get into the area where the Lizard
Armorers are instead.
|
|Everquest does not promote travel. Everquest does not promote exploration.
|Everquest DOES promote staying at one well-known dungeon until every
|monster in it is green and then moving on to the next. That's how it's
|designed, and it's a flaw.
Then why am I not doing any of these things?
It "promotes" that style of play in the sense that if you are a
powergaming twit that's what you'll do in order to "win". You won't have any
fun if you do that, and you seem to be complaining that you aren't having any
fun, but that doesn't seem to be stopping you from being a powergaming twit.
Whatever changes the developers make won't solve your problems, because you're
your own worst enemy.
Frank Williamson
place will be packed to the rafters with wizards, giving me no chance of
getting it on my own. Then they'll offer to sell it to me for 500 Plat or
so.
Rubicite greaves were auctioned in faydwer last nite by a paladin.. 1200p ..
I had heard over and over that you have ot be 35th or so just to go where it
spawns.. and bring friends.
The fact that it is camp city there and all the other places means I will
treat it like the trainer hill in Crushbone.
I'll go there for fun.. when everything is green, with a couple friends
(say, about 12 or so).. and ask if we can be let into the rotation.
If there is no response or a jerk response.. then it is a free for all and
may the most power win.
I dont choose to get angry over this situation any longer.
I'll assemble a party of nukes and a party of tanks .. 6 of each .. same way
we did Dvinn as 9th thru 15th lvls.
Only this time most of us will be 40th - 50th.
-Grayeagle
Frank Williamson
in as short a time as possible and if that means KS'ing from some L18-22s
when I'm L30 in Naj so be it. I'll get it, and then I'll be gone.
>
You would have been laughed out of the room in your attempt when I was there
recently.
We had a 40th cleric, 37th ranger, 38th druid, 37th necro, 30th wizard, and
I .. 25th warrior.
Inana needed the robe for a guildmember, and backpacks were given out as we
got 'em ..in 3 hours najena spawned 3 times.. finally yeilding the robe.
Several asked us .. and we told them as soon as we got a robe we were done.
I can camp when it is for a friend, it is the only time I will. We are
spread across several guilds .. and come together now and then when we need
to.
I even enjoy the pickclaws if there are less players than there are
pickclaws that spawn.. you zone in and see 30 players in the zone .. don't
even go in.. it wont be fun.
3 groups seem ideal.. as each has a chance to heal up and med before the
next beating.
This weekend I think I will run my wizard though .. he is close to being
able to bind and that is a cool thing :)
-GE
Hippie Ramone
: Hippie Ramone wrote in message <7lv04m$pjc$5...@jelerak.scrye.com>...
Heh util the next MMORPG show up...
K
Hippie Ramone
: You would have been laughed out of the room in your attempt when I was there
: recently.
: We had a 40th cleric, 37th ranger, 38th druid, 37th necro, 30th wizard, and
: I .. 25th warrior.
Heh fair enough but don't expect me to not try and go for it. ;)
K
Hippie Ramone
: No... nothing in what I said in any way condones killstealing... if you
: want to KS, thats up to you, but I never do it and I don't condone doing
: it either.
Are you not the fellow who refused to let anyone in for a crack
on Naj while you were camping for jboots? To me that is in
some ways the ulitmate KS.
K
Hippie Ramone
: Excuse my ignorance, not having J-boots yet I may be a bit confused. Are
: you saying that J-boots cannot be put in the bank? The bank is just a
: extension of your inventory, why wouldn't you be able to bank a item just
: because it is no trade?
Ummm don't know. Jboots are probably too useful to bank. ;) I
do not know anyone who has tried.
K
Hippie Ramone
: But people want the kEwL items, and they'll take instant gratification
: over enlightened self-interest any day.
Heh I'll bet that some percentage of the farmers are looking to
make some Ebay profits. now there is enlightened self-interest. ;)
K
Jeffrey Lin
> What we don't do, though, is put special named items in regular treasure tables.
> That's because we want encounters where we know you had to fight to a certain point
> in order to have the chance to obtain a special item. We also want context to an
> item -- we want people to know that a certain item comes from a certain NPC, and
> there is often a story behind why the NPC has that item.
>
> What we don't want, and I went into more detail regarding this in another post, is
> for the player to just sit there and kill an NPC anywhere in the world in a specific
> level range and eventually get whatever item he is looking for. We want travel, we
> want exploration, and we want special items to have meaning and context.
I understand where your team is coming from now. I believe there is a way to do both.
First allow me to analyse the situation:
1) First, Let me presume that this "camping" & "farming" phenomenun's largest problem
occurs in set spawn areas between levels 15 to 42. I am going to say that really high
level dungeons areas (43+) there are very very few campers and farmers, because those
areas are very very difficult, and people don't want to stay in there for any longer
than they have to. Also, not so many people are at that level or in those areas.
2) Special NPCs from level 15 to 42 are over populated, because of "camping" which means
the one or multiple people in the party really wants that certain item, or "farming"
which means is just like a trade skill. Sort of. You spend time(in this cast kill
things) that get you little or no experience, without risk, for profit. Because of the
few "farmers", it discourages a huge majority of players to get that Shiny Brass Halberd
(for example). By making them no trade just stops the player economy, which I agree
with you is not good. By making them Lore will not stop farming, but it will reduce
profit margin by dropping these rare artifacts price down (ala dragoon dirk). That
creates another problem in itself, mainly it cheapens all the rest of the weapons. Why
buy a combine/well balanced weapon when you can get a dragoon dirk?
3) Keep the REALLY storyline driven items on those NPCs only, especially quest items.
Suggested changes:
1) Have Intelligent (item using) creatures level 25 to 50 anywhere able to have a slight
chance of dropping those items. By rare, I mean .2% of 1 special item, randomly chosen
from a list of 50. This happens only IF the party who killed the mob can get exp from
it.
2) Lower the chance of Special NPC having those items to 20%. Or Make those special
NPCs spawn rate low. Once a real day or more.
Projected Effects:
1) People that use to "Farm" will decrease in number, because it is no longer
profitable. They will complain.
2) People that use to "Camp" will complain, because they seem to have a longer wait.
Some will no longer camp, because they cannot find the creature. For those campers that
are really persistant, their wait might actually be the same or shorter, because the
farmers are gone.
3) People hunting all over the world have a one in 500 chance of getting a surprise
present. That is not much to ask for in my opinion. That is maybe once per level, if
you are lucky. This will make hunting anywhere exciting, for that really odd chance of
getting something unknown. And really, its not that out of hand. It is almost
impossible get that specific item that you want by killing the local populus. With a
random chart of 50 items at a .2% pull, its one in 25,000.
4) There are now 3 ways to obtain an item. A) Buy it, B) Camp, C) Get lucky. I think
its because of lack of option C right now there is so many campers. Currently its
simply *impossible* to get *ANY* Set Spawn items unless you know where/who that critter
is.
Jeff
Dundee
>What we don't do, though, is put special named items in regular treasure tables.
Can't you at least put something comperable to it in the regular
treasure table for mobs a few levels up?
>That's because we want encounters where we know you had to fight to a certain point
>in order to have the chance to obtain a special item.
Camping.
>We also want context to an
>item -- we want people to know that a certain item comes from a certain NPC,
Camping.
>and there is often a story behind why the NPC has that item.
Is there a story why he'll have it again in 15 minutes?
>What we don't want, and I went into more detail regarding this in another post, is
>for the player to just sit there and kill an NPC anywhere in the world in a specific
>level range
Well it wouldn't have to be *any* NPC *anywhere* in the world.
>and eventually get whatever item he is looking for. We want travel, we
>want exploration, and we want special items to have meaning and context.
Oh they have meaning and context alright...
Ravice
the bank.
It just doesn't work that way.
As a Wizard I learned this early on with my Aprentice Robe. When I
bougth the jr. Aprentice robe, I found that I could put neither in the
bank :(
Dundee
wrote:
>I also respectfully disagree with the first poster -- that's not the D&D I used
>to play. When we went through a campaign it was very much like EQ -- wandering
>NPCs would spawn from random treasure tables just like EQ (for example, the
>occasional Ice Goblin in Permafrost spawning with a piece of Ringmail or Bronze
>Plate, or even a Rune or other spell component), and then special, typically
>named NPCs with the better, special items.
And was there a long line of other heros waiting for him to appear so
they could nuke him into oblivion in 5 seconds?
Because that's what *we* have.
Dundee
>Maybe there should be some "lesser" versions of unique items.
>e.g. the Runed Totem Staff. Why not create an item with a similiar
>strength, but other name, which is found on random mobs,more often
>than the RTS.
The RTS is a *common* item.
But otherwise I agree with you. Leave the Named Items on the Named
Mobs but put some comperable stuff elsewhere.
Remus Shepherd
> Remus Shepherd wrote:
>> > Randomly generate artifacts/loots. Named critter has a higher chance of
>> > generating better stuff, or a different "class" of treasure ala AD&D.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the randomly-generated item idea has been passed about
>> so many times, and ignored by Verant so many times, that I think there must
>> be a limitation preventing them from doing something like this.
> The limitation, honestly, is that fact that this would totally destroy any
> identity to items and also eliminate static encounters, which would pretty much
> render dungeons useless. Not only would named items become meaningless, there
> would be no reason to explore, and no reason to fight to depths of a dungeon.
> Everyone would just find the easiest and closest place to kill NPCs that aren't
> so tough, and kill them repeatedly, hoping that a random cool item would
> appear.
Hmmn. I disagree with this, Brad. No big deal -- it wouldn't be the first
time I've disagreed with a Dungeon Master about how he's running his campaign.
;)
You can have both special named items *and* equivalent common items, if
you're careful. Example: Drelzna, the wearer of the Journeyman Boots,
is tuned to be taken out by a party of 25th level adventurers. (I could be
wrong about that, but I know that she's too easy for a party of 30th levels.)
But you could have an equivalent item -- say, Fire Boots -- spawn randomly
on 35th level goblins in Nagafen's Lair. People from 20-30th level will
have to battle their way to Drelzna, though a dungeon tuned for them, a
grand adventure. They'd have no chance of getting Fire Boots from Nagafens.
People of 35th level and above, though, could get what they wanted from
Nagafens, instead of camping the poor mage Drelzna who is pitifully
underpowered for their level.
That's just a matter of tuning item spawn for the dungeon they're in.
Now, you could make the Nagafen goblins have random items -- Fire Boots,
Runner Rings, Winged Helmets, etc -- that all do the same thing as
Journeyman Boots, just to add more flavor and to give players more options
when customizing their character. That's what I was proposing.
I was not proposing that Drelzna have random items...I agree, that would
ruin the named monster/named item storylines. But is there a reason why
there couldn't be random items of equivalent value given as loot for
unnamed monsters of a higher level?
See, if the high-level characters have a chance at getting the items
they want on monsters appropriate for their level, then you can make
monsters that give no xp also give no loot. Nobody will be alienated;
you want an item with the SOW effect, go fight a monster challenging to you
that may have it. Then the only campers in the game will be camping monsters
the same level that they are...which would be a HUGE improvement on what
exists now.
> I also respectfully disagree with the first poster -- that's not the D&D I used
> to play. When we went through a campaign it was very much like EQ -- wandering
> NPCs would spawn from random treasure tables just like EQ (for example, the
> occasional Ice Goblin in Permafrost spawning with a piece of Ringmail or Bronze
> Plate, or even a Rune or other spell component), and then special, typically
> named NPCs with the better, special items. That was our incentive for exploring
> the various dungeons or other areas -- to gain experience, to find the treasure,
> to solve the quests and puzzles.
Eh, when I played D&D there were tons of low-value magic items found
daily. At first level you might find frying pans that heated themselves,
or potions of slow poison, or somesuch. If we wanted the wand of fireballs
we had to quest through the kobold warrens to take one from their wizard.
But by the time we got to 15th level or so, every other evil guy in the
world had a wand of fireballs pointed at us, and we could stack the things
like cordwood. :) By that time we were questing for staves of the magi,
and other, more powerful things.
Imagine if, in D&D, a 15th level mage wanted a wand of fireballs and
the only place to get it was a warren of kobolds. "BAM, BAM -- there,
every kobold in a 6-mile radius is dead..I'll just take that, thank you..."
;)
Now imagine that there are dozens of 15th level mages, all descending
upon those kobolds, ready to level the countryside for that one item.
Now you're getting a rough (if overexaggerated) approximation of the
situation in EQ. :)
.... ...
Remus Shepherd (re...@netcom.com)
adam connor
<bmcq...@verant.com> wrote:
> The limitation, honestly, is that fact that this would totally destroy any
> identity to items and also eliminate static encounters, which would
pretty much
> That is definitely NOT the game we set out to make.
Well, your intentions were good, but in practice it sucks. Mobs with good
items are camped around the clock, and there goes whatever would have been
fun about your approach. I would much much much rather have good items
spawn on random mobs so that I could avoid the whole camping with 100
others thing. (Not to mention that the mystique of Lord Dvinn is kind of
spoiled when he gets cut down in 5 seconds.)
Maybe the game you set out to make cannot work in an MMORPG.
adam connor