Class vs Class - who cares?
Draaxxafin
"your class is better then my class"
and
" I can get killed by a necro pet *cry*"
But basicly, a question for you.
- would you rather group with a powerfull necromancer who has amazing spells
and a
strong pet fighting along side you, helping you get the job done
quicker/eaiser and more
enjoyable.
or
- would you rather group with a necromancer with a weak pet and only good
DOTs which
do not bring alot to most areas of the games, and in the end becomes a
liability and not
an addition?
Personnaly, I would rather group with the powerfull necromancer with the pet
that kicks ass.
Why? it makes my life easier.
Pets are a pain to controll in dungeons but can be done. Necros live with
bad factions
KOS and slow-acting DOT spells that can not contribute much to the game at
the lower lvls
to get a nice pet as a payoff at lvl 50. They give up alto on the route to
lvl 49 to get their
strong pets, and they deserve it. And guess what? these pets help you
aswell.
Those who complain bout it just have a major case of envy IMO. What does it
matter if
a necro pet can deal out more damage? a tank is still the best in the long
run IMO for a
number of reasons. (and from most of the logs I have seen, other class's
have beat
a necro pet in damage in PvE combat).
But, does a necro having a strong pet add to your group? YES, Does a necro
having
a strong pet take away from the group? NO. does a necro having a strong pet
remove the need
for a tank? in most cases, no. (in any situation of which a necro pet can
100% replace a
tank, usualy a group of non-pet casters could pull it off tankless aswell.
In the end it is just class envy, Tanks are still a very valuable and
usefull class at all lvls. I have
yet to hear "oh sorry mr warrior, we dont need you to slag nagafen because
we have a few
Jobnabers and Xabartnitcs to take your spot". Sheesh.
Personnaly I think with all the BS that necros put up with, that they
deserve a fairly strong pet,
in the end it wont replace the need for a tank. And it ADDS to a group
setting. I just dont get it,
- Why bitch about something being strong if it can also help you out?
that is just totaly beyond me.
- Necromancer/Magician pets HELP In group settings and DO NOT hurt you
(unless in PvP
but who gives a damn), so why do you bitch "nerf nerf?". I think it is just
pure jealousy.
- lvl 50 wizard, oh my! a mage+pet can out damage me. nerf them now
dangnabit!
sheesh.
iron...@hotmail.com
dual, including his pet. That is the way it should be, not playing a warrior who
gets out fought by a pet.
Olaf
post this.
Imagine racking up a /played time of 30+, only to find that a necro, with
the same played time, can cast 1 spell that makes you obsolete, in many
situations. Yeah pets suck in dungeons, yeah they dont have as good a taunt
skill as some classes, yeah they have no human intelligence driving them.
We know this. The fact remains that they are better at taking/giving damage
than an actual PC melee class, and this simply should not be.
olaf
Draaxxafin <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1Zf14.6505
<pro necro-pet better that same level PC melee class text snipped>
Draaxxafin
whacked down quick
and hard, the resists of spells and root is pretty damn bad. Also, a lvl 50
cleric does not
have enough mana to take down a lvl 50 warrior. How fair is that?
This game is not based around PvP, so they should not balance (or focus) the
game when it comes
to PvP.
<iron...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:384590A0...@hotmail.com...
Nutritech Corp.
Nutritech Corp.
Olaf <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Whg14.111939$y45.2...@news4.giganews.com...
Draaxxafin
I have worked my lvl 50 wizard upto lvl 50, putting in over 40+ days
of /played just to realize power wise - I suck, magi/necros can dish out
more damage, as can shamans and other class. A Enchanter is a usefull
adidtion to the group. Sure, I have a use, but what wizards give up does
not payoff. We are EASILY outdamaged by magi/necros. But so what?
Wizards are one of the weakest lvl 50 casters, but I dont care? Why.
I enjoy playing the class.
And it all comes back to "you are just jealous"
Q: Does a necro pet add to a group setting?
A: Yes
Q: If the necro pet got nerfed, where would it hurt them most?
A: Grouping. Why? They can still do fear tricks/DOTs/kite to solo.
But in a group setting a strong pet is their main asset.
Q: Does a necro pet take away from your gameplay?
A: No
It all just falls back to having penis envy of the necro class. Does it
really
matter how strong X is to Y aslong as you enjoy playing the class that
you picked?
Sure, IMO wizards suck at higher lvls, and arnt that great at the mid lvls
but I still enjoy playing the class. Class power has little to do with how
much
you enjoy it IMO.
And Perosnnaly, I think warriors are a kick-ass well rounded class, they
have
amazing amour (which pets dont) they get amazing weapons (which pets dont)
they have a brain behind them (which pets dont). You can easily crank up the
gear
on a warrior to fit the situation (you cant on pets). ie) Crank up your
magic resist
for magic mobs, crank up heat for nag, cold for vox. You can customize your
character
the best. It is easier to monitor/use a PC tank in a fight.
Sure, if a Necromancers pet showed up in the group list, and you could toss
it weapons
and get them back (same with amour), and the necromancer could take
"controll of" the
pet, so he could use/attack with the pet like he could if he was a tank.
Then yes, that would
be a balance issue.
But guess what? its not that way. IMO a real tank will allways be more
usefull to a group then
a necro pet.
And as I said, it all comes down to just being jealous that they can do
something that you cant.
.. A druid can heal buff evac and nuke, a wizard can evac and nuke. IMO they
are more
usefull in high-lvl events. Do I care? no. I enjoy playing my wizard
.. A magi has pets/debuffs/damage shields/item summons. They have the 2nd
best
DD, but with pets and damage shields they can easily out do a wizard? do I
care. No
.. A necro has a nice pet, can easily out damage me with his combo of nukes
and DOTs.
They can heal themselfs and heal others which is usefull, do I care? no.
IMO the 3 above class's are better / more usefull and well rounded then the
wizard class.
Do I care? no. Why? I enjoy my class, and I still serve a purpose in a group
setting.
(which is dealing fast DD damage)
What do tanks have going for them?
- Amazing weapons
- Amazing amour
- Amazing items
all of which can highly incrase how well they are in combat. They may be a
bit behind on
the damage edge of a necro pet, but in the long run are MUCH more usefull in
a group setting.
So again, some Q&A
Q: Are warriors still usefull in groups
A: Yes
Q: Are other melee class's still good in groups?
A: Yes
Q: Does a necro pet drasticly reduce the need for a tnak?
A: IMO, no
Q: Does a necromancer / magi with a pet reduce the enjoyment you get?
A: No
If you say yes, then why the hell are you playing a warrior?
IMO aslong as you are usefull in a group setting and enjoy playing your
class, who cares?
Nutritech Corp.
Draaxxafin <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZBg14.6575$75.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
Legen Thorn
free xp?
free loot?
And you didn't have to do anything for it?
I think that I would like to earn my xp and loot and I would like to be in
groups where I can contribute equally (or pretty close to that) as everyone
else.
And do I have some tank necro envy? I doubt it since I play a Druid.
Tony Butterfield
> news:384590A0...@hotmail.com...
> > Nope I'd rather be able to kill the necro of the same level 50% of the
> time in a
> > dual, including his pet. That is the way it should be, not playing a
> warrior who
> > gets out fought by a pet.
news:dog14.156$E3.1...@newsfeed.avtel.net...
> Penis envy
>
Class balance. Basic RPG design 101.
No one class should be overwhelmingly more powerful than another at the same
level, tactical situations aside...
Take notes. There'll be a quiz later.
Grimjakk Ghostripper
Ogre Shaman o' da Warlord
Olaf
those 'amazing' items you refer to arent that amazing, are they?
If you (or someone else) want to call it penis envy that is cool too. The
beef is that 1 spell makes a melee class useless/inferior/obsolete/penis
evnyed/whatever.
I am also sick of the BS response, 'you dont like it, play another class'.
Perhaps there would be much less melees running around if the manual had
stated that their primary group function of taking and dealing melee damage
could be negated by a spell from a necro. Not everyone has the patience nor
desire to repeat the immense amount of /played time in their current
crippled melee class on a favored casting class.
olaf
Draaxxafin <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZBg14.6575$75.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
> Again, this comes back to the "you are just jelaous"
Adar
> This is mainly aimed at people who complain that
>
> "your class is better then my class"
> and
> " I can get killed by a necro pet *cry*"
(snip)
> But, does a necro having a strong pet add to your group? YES, Does a necro
> having
> a strong pet take away from the group? NO. does a necro having a strong
pet
> remove the need
> for a tank? in most cases, no. (in any situation of which a necro pet can
> 100% replace a
> tank, usualy a group of non-pet casters could pull it off tankless aswell.
>
Not really; there's no way a group of non-pet casters, even with an
enchanter, can pull off holding a room with 5-7 spawns in SolB/LGuk, for
instance (waaaaaay too much downtime; it'll spawn on them while they're
still medding and kill them.)
However, super-regenerating, ultra powerful tank pets make that much easier.
> In the end it is just class envy, Tanks are still a very valuable and
> usefull class at all lvls. I have
> yet to hear "oh sorry mr warrior, we dont need you to slag nagafen because
> we have a few
> Jobnabers and Xabartnitcs to take your spot". Sheesh.
>
Naggy is the ONE mob that can't be done without tanks. Why? Because he COULD
be done using only pets, until Verant retuned him to summon the casters
instead of focusing on the pets.
Note that no other mob, with the possible exception of Cazic, has this
ability- plane breakins are done without tanks ALL THE TIME nowadays.
> - Why bitch about something being strong if it can also help you out?
>
Because it's not helping me out.
Brudo (E'ci)
Loredaeron (E'ci)
Nutritech Corp.
> beef is that 1 spell makes a melee class useless/inferior/obsolete/penis
> evnyed/whatever.
That's just the thing, the pets -don't- make you obsolete. Tanks are an
essential part of a good group, especially at the higher levels (which is
when the pets get crazy anyway). It makes me kind of sad that so many tanks
get in that mindset.
jkprice
tank...they aren't as bloody good as the tanks for MANY reasons. So what
that they do more damage.
By the way, I haven't played a warrior, but I have played a monk, and there
is not a chance in hell any necro pet from a necro within 3 levels of my
monk could ever HOPE to win a melee battle with my monk. What are you
wearing, patchwork armor and weilding a rusty dagger?
"Olaf" <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:PVh14.2248$uI1.1...@news2.giganews.com...
> Well obviously, if a pet can outdamage and TAKE more damage than a tank,
> those 'amazing' items you refer to arent that amazing, are they?
>
> If you (or someone else) want to call it penis envy that is cool too. The
> beef is that 1 spell makes a melee class useless/inferior/obsolete/penis
> evnyed/whatever.
>
> I am also sick of the BS response, 'you dont like it, play another class'.
> Perhaps there would be much less melees running around if the manual had
> stated that their primary group function of taking and dealing melee
damage
> could be negated by a spell from a necro. Not everyone has the patience
nor
> desire to repeat the immense amount of /played time in their current
> crippled melee class on a favored casting class.
>
> olaf
>
> Draaxxafin <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Nutritech Corp.
nerfing, up the melee classes overall output to at least approach that of
the casters . I personally don't feel they should do as much damage as
casters (otherwise why play a caster?), but they should be able to do enough
damage to kill an average -low- con blue at high levels before they get
waxed.
However, I do feel that the melees that whine constantly about the pets
doing too much damage do it out of envy, not out of their want for a well
balanced game.
> Truth is, I don't want casters changed. I don't want their pets changed.
> I want melee classes fixed. That's all anyone who prefers them wants,
> if the people who perfer caster classes would pay more attention, they'd
> see it too.
>
>
> ME
>
>
tim
Olaf <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>Well obviously, if a pet can outdamage and TAKE more damage than a tank,
>those 'amazing' items you refer to arent that amazing, are they?
He kinda fails to get it. Like completely.
>If you (or someone else) want to call it penis envy that is cool too. The
>beef is that 1 spell makes a melee class useless/inferior/obsolete/penis
>evnyed/whatever.
This brings up a good point. If all things were even in the end, much
less all along the way, there wouldn't BE any serious problem with
what people who favor pets refer to as "envy" or whatever. They'd be
able to make better arguments, but, they can't do that because there IS
a problem. Most of the arguments people who favor pets amount to
`Dude, WTF, don't rag on my pet! It's gonna get nerfed you fuxin sponge!'
Even though most people have said "nerfing the pet is not the solution".
They don't want to admit there is a problem with melee classes -overall-
compared to pet & caster classes -overall- becasue they're afraid of
nerfs. The pet comparison is just the unarguable summary, and best
example of the problem. Using pets in the example typifies the
symptom, it does not define the problem. People seem to miss the
subtler aspects of the issue here.
>I am also sick of the BS response, 'you dont like it, play another class'.
>Perhaps there would be much less melees running around if the manual had
>stated that their primary group function of taking and dealing melee damage
>could be negated by a spell from a necro. Not everyone has the patience nor
>desire to repeat the immense amount of /played time in their current
>crippled melee class on a favored casting class.
That one's just another wave of lameness that has spawned in the
sea of knee-jerk overreaction and overly defensive that is the
substance of the "leave my pet alone" argument. Most of the bashing
on melee types has amounted to this. Can't say I blame them, but
the unwillingness to admit there's something out of balence, the
really horrid logical fallicies that I've seen in argument against changing
anything at all have been pretty amazing.
I've watched (mentioning no names) people who regularly post about
how you can't do something once you hit level XX (where XX is generaly
greater than 20) post about how they didn't see any problem cause
their level ZZ (where ZZ is in the teens) character could do it just fine.
Meanwhile, in every other post that has a level related nuance, they're
harping away on the differences and how that's how things should be.
Totaly bogus arguments, but there's a ton of them. Again, more of the
motivation comes down to "Leave my pet alone". Some of it seems to
be from serious jackasses who really LIKE that they're badder than
anything else around & that melee classes are the house niggers of
everquest, but hey like that's anything new either?
>olaf
>
>Draaxxafin <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ZBg14.6575$75.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
>> Again, this comes back to the "you are just jelaous"
>
>> What do tanks have going for them?
>>
>> - Amazing weapons
>> - Amazing amour
>> - Amazing items
Notice he could not, and did not name anything specific that would
deal with the substance of the argument, which is that melee classes
are so screwed up that even (Not just because of, and not that the
cure is to eliminate the example) pets do better than melee classes.
If he could have, he would have come up with "Amazing" X's that offset
the problem, but, hey BIG SURPRISE, he can't. And no one else can
either! So instead we're treated to a pile of bullshit arguments that
there isn't a problem. No one has yet to offer any combo, or any
single "Amazing" weapon/armor/items that allow the meleer to beat
the pet, much less for the meleer to beat the caster. They can't,
cause there arn't any, and the game mechanics are so fundementaly
out of whack that it isn't going to happen without Verant doing
something substantial either.
And we arn't even putting OVERALL damage into the example. Why don't we
do that. Why shouldn't my melee character at 50, be he a warrior or
some other "mixed" class meleer be able to do exactly the same amount
of damage agaist X monster. We will even NOT give them damage casued
by the meleer due to the addition of all the various buffs the meleer
can get, and give the meleer the buffs in the argument. Oh, and
we won't count pet damage, but will let the caster's keep the pets
for defensive purposes & to sponge for them. Just raw damage in it...
I wonder how that looks (not really, I know allready, but let's see).
All these caster classes are all focused on the pets. So much so
that they missed the inital part of the point which was one of
not only not being remotly equal in a dual, but that melee folks
wer not even equal against th damage. Well, wtf happened to that inital
duel? The one WITHOUT the pet. I read that Verant has said they want
classes to be "balanced". Obviously what they say and what they do
are 2 different things. I suspect what they say is PR, and what they
do is what they want to do becasue they think it's what their market
wants.
For all that matter, let's look at the total package against the
total package for damage, with both sides getting all the buffs they
could want... How's that one gonna look I wonder. At 50, 45, 40, 35, 30,
25, 20, 15. Ought to be interesting.
Michael Bates
sends his pet in on an NPC and starts casting, he/she has to balance
damage dealt, the pets taunt and proximity to the mob just to stay
alive. One misjudgement, and the fight is basically over. Pets don't
continue fighting when the necromancer is being returned to their home
point.
A PC, on the other hand, should be at least smart enough to ignore the
pet and concentrate exclusively on the necromancer.
I play a Necromancer on a -PvP server. I play with warriors and monks
who do not seem to show the animosity towards necromancers that I see
in this newsgroup.
If you play a warrior or monk on a -PvP server, relax...get a group
that can take out those nice little NPCs Verant has graciously created
for us and have a good time.
If you play on +PvP server, where people might actually care that a
Necromancer's pet can out melee a fighter, be smarter than the NPC and
attack the Necromancer directly.
Sheesh.
Vladi Soulbiter
34th Level Dark Elf Necromancer (with a 29th level, non-forced
researched pet that definately CANNOT outdamage a fighter)
BristleBane
dc
people don't realize that most of the stuff are rumors, and spreading
rumors will benefit no one. I think though, we have reached a
concensus. NO MORE NERFS!
Chewwba
Level 50 Monk of the Tranquil
On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 20:57:33 GMT, "Draaxxafin" <su...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>This is mainly aimed at people who complain that
>
>"your class is better then my class"
>and
>" I can get killed by a necro pet *cry*"
>
>But, does a necro having a strong pet add to your group? YES, Does a necro
>having
>a strong pet take away from the group? NO. does a necro having a strong pet
>remove the need
>for a tank? in most cases, no. (in any situation of which a necro pet can
>100% replace a
>tank, usualy a group of non-pet casters could pull it off tankless aswell.
>
>In the end it is just class envy, Tanks are still a very valuable and
>usefull class at all lvls. I have
>yet to hear "oh sorry mr warrior, we dont need you to slag nagafen because
>we have a few
>Jobnabers and Xabartnitcs to take your spot". Sheesh.
>
>Personnaly I think with all the BS that necros put up with, that they
>deserve a fairly strong pet,
>in the end it wont replace the need for a tank. And it ADDS to a group
>setting. I just dont get it,
>
>- Why bitch about something being strong if it can also help you out?
>
Matt Frisch
into the ether:
>This is mainly aimed at people who complain that
>
>"your class is better then my class"
>and
>" I can get killed by a necro pet *cry*"
>
>But basicly, a question for you.
>
>- would you rather group with a powerfull necromancer who has amazing spells
>and a
>strong pet fighting along side you, helping you get the job done
>quicker/eaiser and more
>enjoyable.
>
>or
>
>- would you rather group with a necromancer with a weak pet and only good
>DOTs which
>do not bring alot to most areas of the games, and in the end becomes a
>liability and not
>an addition?
>
>Personnaly, I would rather group with the powerfull necromancer with the pet
>that kicks ass.
>Why? it makes my life easier.
Here is a better question: Which of the two above would bother to group
with YOU? Probably not the first.
Twilight
ok , look it from this point of view.
Would you as a necro want to group with another player who will suck
up you xp, share your loot and require help camping for his items to
be still inferior to your pet? Or will need more downtime to heal
hitpoints.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war , a world without hate . And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it. " -Jack Handey
Draaxxafin
is way better than solo exp (but with the overcrowding that is not
allways the case)
And who cares if a necro choses not to group? I could solo a wiz
upto lvl 50 if I felt like it, or a druid, or a magi, or a necro. I know
someone
that got his ranger to lvl 50 by being solo like 80% of the time, the 20%
of the time he grouped was to get items.
Twilight <twil...@REMOVETHIS.ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3845d290...@news.akl.ihug.co.nz...
Draaxxafin
> If you (or someone else) want to call it penis envy that is cool too. The
> beef is that 1 spell makes a melee class useless/inferior/obsolete/penis
> evnyed/whatever.
What a load of BS. Tanks are still highly effective and usefull in group
settings. A pet does NOT make a tank obsolete.
James hong
pet caster? Go after the caster! You can take the hits that the pet deals
out, just last long enough to kill the necro. If the necro runs, you go
after him, and try to kill him. Its not a sure thing, but its never a sure
thing. You have a decent chance at killing the necro, dude. You're not too
outclass. But why should you care? Do you complain about ice-comet? Just
think of a necro-pet as a long lasting Dot.
Nutritech Corp. <sal...@silcom.com> wrote in message
news:dog14.156$E3.1...@newsfeed.avtel.net...
> Penis envy
>
Twilight
wrote:
>I enjoy the company of others. In the correct situations group exp
>is way better than solo exp (but with the overcrowding that is not
>allways the case)
>
>And who cares if a necro choses not to group? I could solo a wiz
>upto lvl 50 if I felt like it, or a druid, or a magi, or a necro. I know
>someone
>that got his ranger to lvl 50 by being solo like 80% of the time, the 20%
>of the time he grouped was to get items.
>
my opinion on on this is simple, sure i group with others because the
company it provides, but my point is this , a necro does not need to
group. because he has essentially a ready tank available to him. He
does not need a tank for one is provided to him which is superior to a
PC tank. That is what rankles most tanks. Note a necro's items is
relatively easy to obtain vs that ranger buddy of yours. He never
needed to group,i know i didnt to get my items.
You cannot believe that a tank gets up to lvl 50 and finds that he is
inferior to a pet and tell me that its fair. Necros dont have it
harder compared to an SK , yet i dont see ppl even hinting that SKs
are overpowered, more the opposite in fact.
Olaf
of level X. Pretty straightforward.
olaf
Draaxxafin <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:T5m14.6726$75.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
Olaf
(with a single spell), with mana to spare. Simple.
olaf
ronin <ro...@spamnot.darke.net> wrote in message
news:ZKtGODUDh3iw5Y...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:32:18 -0600, "Olaf" <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >Sure they are. But a pet of level X shouldnt be able to kill a melee
class
> >of level X. Pretty straightforward.
>
> Why not? You've yet to explain one good and valid reason as to WHY a
> pet of level x shouldn't be able to kill a melee class of level X.
> Other than the fact that you just don't like it, and are obviously
> going to stamp your heels and pout until something changes to make you
> happy.
Lyion
> Why not? You've yet to explain one good and valid reason as to WHY
> a
> pet of level x shouldn't be able to kill a melee class of level X.
In a 'class' based system, there needs to be some level of equity.
Casters are not supposed to be able to tank as well as meleers.
If a 49 necro pet can outtank any 50 Meleer then that is wrong.
Its all about balance. They are caster classes.
To offset this the Fast Weapon/greater damage deal must be removed, and
the fast HP regen should be removed.
Mage pets fast regen rate is also total bullshit. They should regen
SLOWER then PCs. Heavy testing should be done to ensure that all
classes are equitable and balanced.
Spontaneous nerfs are not a good solution....
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Draaxxafin
crack
out a stead stream of 125+ damage, even though its blue to you and you cant
do the same?
.. And why dont warriros complain about the charm line of spells if they are
going
to complain about pets. Wow, those bad boys can dish out some mean ass
damage
=)
Also, if the warrior focuses on the caster not the pet, then they can beat
the caster.
In the case of a necromancer, the necro may go down and the warrior will
follow
shortly after =) but ohwell.
Point is tho : Pets do not replace the need for a tank in a group setting.
Simple and to the point, not much to compherend IMO.
Olaf
classes is eliminated. What I am saying is that, a summoned COMPLEMENT to a
caster shouldnt be better than the real thing. That is it. I am not
talking about dueling or PvP. I am talking about a necro/mage pet being
better at absorbing and dealing damage than a melee class. That is wrong
and should corrected.
olaf
Draaxxafin <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8YA14.6975$75.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
Draaxxafin
another class
at any given lvl.
IMO warriors have an edge at the lower lvls, then they become a group
oritned class
quickly. Wizards get it hard at the low lvls, and well.. Still suck at
higher lvls.
Necros are semi-weak around the lower lvls, they arnt that great in groups,
and have to
put up with KOS/bad factions/inability to buy all their spells w/o help of
others. banking / food
/ buying / selling are all issues for a necromancer.
I cant be hunting in HH pass and just run to the nearest bank, I need to run
all the way back
to freeport or Neriak, Necromancers have alot of things stacked against them
at first, and
in the end it pays off.
Warriors get to lvl the easiest and quickest IMO, and are great in groups at
all lvls. Verants
ide of "balance" is not each class has equal power to another class at every
lvl.
Also, its not the "power" that counts, its how you use what you got. Sure,
if a tank dosnt know
how to pull good, or how to change targets now and then to help out peole
getting beat on,
or when to stop taunting, or when the monk dosnt know how/when to manage the
pulls, or deal
with extra mobs taht are on the group. Then yeah, replace them with a pet.
But if they know how
to use their class abilities corectly a pet cant replace them.
A good example of Its how you use what you got. Is the enchanter class, on
the surface
they dont look that great, weak pet low DDs., Mainly buffs and debuffs. Yet,
a well played
enchanter is one of the most powerfull class's in th game. When a poorly
played enchanter
is just a liability to your group and is weak.
.. How can an enchanter solo? summon pet, buff pet. Med, put rune on pet,
put rune
on yourself, pull a mob, get pet on mob. Debuff mob, make the mob hit slower
and hit
for less, toss a DOT onto the mob, keep mob stuned while pet melee's mob.
Toss out
a DD now and then to speed things up.
.. And in a group setting, my lord enchanters are amazing. Yet, if you dont
know how
to play the class they suck.
But aslong as X class does not make Y clas obsolite, whats the problem?
.. in a word : Jealousy
Olaf <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rIC14.5113$uI1.2...@news2.giganews.com...
garth
DoT's
than necros...it wouldn't affect you, right?
ronin wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:06:19 -0600, "Olaf" <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Well because then a casting class can effectively out melee a melee class
>>(with a single spell), with mana to spare. Simple.
>
>You're right. Still doesn't explain or offer a good reason why it
>shouldn't be, except for "I don't like it, waaaaah!"
>
garth
Melee more powerful
at low levels? Maybe until about lvl 8, but thats about 2% of the time we
spend on a char.
In fact my group used to ungroup to powerlevel my warrior just so I could
keep up with them.
If warriors were more powerful til lvl 25 I could see the argument, but to
make them useless
after lvl 40 to justify an easy first few levels is crazy. Right now I
suspect the only reason my
group puts up with me is based on old friendsships. Here's the
warrior...constantly needs
buffs and heals...not as effective as the pet, but we'll keep him on for old
times sake...oh
yeah, and because he fetches better than a pet.
Draaxxafin wrote in message ...
>or when to stop taunting, or when the monk dosnt know how/when to manage
the
Tim Hess
garth <ga...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:s4fjc6...@corp.supernews.com...
>oh
> yeah, and because he fetches better than a pet.
LOL, SO True.
Olaf
Draaxxafin <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AuP14.7525$75.5...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
>
> Warriors get to lvl the easiest and quickest IMO, and are great in groups
at
> all lvls. Verants
> ide of "balance" is not each class has equal power to another class at
every
> lvl.
This is just wrong. If you are saying in a group setting, Warrioirs level
the quickest, well then you are correct because they require the least xp to
level. However, the classes that can solo with the least down time level
the quickest AND easiest (note, this is not warriors).
>
> Also, its not the "power" that counts, its how you use what you got. Sure,
> if a tank dosnt know
> how to pull good, or how to change targets now and then to help out peole
> getting beat on,
> or when to stop taunting, or when the monk dosnt know how/when to manage
the
> pulls, or deal
> with extra mobs taht are on the group. Then yeah, replace them with a pet.
> But if they know how
> to use their class abilities corectly a pet cant replace them.
This is just shit. A pet shouldnt be able to out tank a tank class in ANY
situation. It should ALWAYS be more desirable to have a PC melee class
around rather than a pet. A pet is a SUPPLEMENT to a casting class, it
shouldnt REPLACE any other class's abilities. Also, lets assume that at
level 35+ a player character knows how to tank, and they didnt just buy
their guy off Ebay.
>
> But aslong as X class does not make Y clas obsolite, whats the problem?
> .. in a word : Jealousy
How about when SINGLE spell from class X makes class Y oboslete? What is
that?
olaf
Ron Cole
>fact that a bug that a tank can kill in two hits at lvl 15 can kill a
>caster of the same level, with the fact that someday, they won't need
>to rely on those others, and have the skills and the strength to kick
>serious butt.
Except that they aren't weak early on. They are in fact, more powerful
from the beginning, if they are pet casters. They have a tank built in,
that they don't have to split experience with, as long as they manage to do
more than half the damage. I can see where wizards fit this scenario quite
well. They can toss out some awesome damage, but not when something is
beating the snot out of them. But the pet casters have a pet to keep the
bad guys at bay, and the pet can also dish out warrior level damage or
better. If you want to balance this out, melees need a lot more base
damage, or the pets need far less damage output and more hit points. That
way, you choose between summoning a sponge or grouping with a real tank.
Currently, you choose a real tank only if you want company, the pets don't
carry on much of a conversation... "Yes master" "Whatever you say, oh
splendid one..."
Draaxxafin
garth <ga...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:s4fiug...@corp.supernews.com...
Draaxxafin
NOT
replace the need for having a real tank?
Draaxxafin
Having a REAL PC tank is allways more diserable then having a necro
pet along toe. Even if I am doing like a multi-group effort and have 2 or
3 necromancers with me I will allways try and hunt down a tank?
Why - necro pets DO NOT REPLACE THE NEED FOR A TANK
IN A GROUP.
Damnit, when will people get that though their heads.
Darkwillow
because I need heals and buffs because I get my arse kicked by seamingly low
level mobs with out that support. A warrior is healer dependent, and a group
with a pure Warrior needs a healer or the time between battles is long and
boring. Often the Warrior will apoligize for having to sit until his hp
regen (700+ Hp takes a long time to regen). Mean while the other party
members are ready to go because of their spiffy meditate skill. Warriors
suck as tanks because they offer so little to a group. A pet on the other
hand takes exp only if it makes the kill and regen's HP quickly. Rangers,
Paladins are more group friendly because of their magic that helps a group.
I have seen a Magician take on a group of gnolls with a pet and won without
having to run for his life. That same mob with a Warrior would have had
him/her for lunch. Their is really no balance in this game since each class
does not have the same potential for success. Remember this is Verant's
sandbox and we play by their rules, not the rules of common sense.
Twilight <twil...@REMOVETHIS.ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3845d290...@news.akl.ihug.co.nz...
> <snip>
>
> ok , look it from this point of view.
>
> Would you as a necro want to group with another player who will suck
> up you xp, share your loot and require help camping for his items to
> be still inferior to your pet? Or will need more downtime to heal
> hitpoints.
>
>
>
Whuz
balancing/'enhancements'.
Don't tell me about how stupid that is - I'm not *THEM*.
On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 20:57:33 GMT, "Draaxxafin" <su...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Canuck
> On Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:06:19 -0600, "Olaf" <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >Well because then a casting class can effectively out melee a melee class
> >(with a single spell), with mana to spare. Simple.
>
> You're right. Still doesn't explain or offer a good reason why it
> shouldn't be, except for "I don't like it, waaaaah!"
Surely you're joking, right ronin? You can't honestly believe that a caster
class should be able to out melee a melee class... Do you?
Before I expend any effort in pointing out how bloody well insane such a
position is (or move on to that draxx genius who also posted in this
thread), please assure me that you're actually serious about the laughable
statement above.
Kumbaya,
Canuck
An Island Of Sanity In A Sea Of Madness
pete
> >(with a single spell), with mana to spare. Simple.
>
> You're right. Still doesn't explain or offer a good reason why it
> shouldn't be, except for "I don't like it, waaaaah!"
It shouldn't be because it's not fair to the melee classes! I can't believe
how self centered some of you casters are! How can you type this garbage!
I say, "enjoy your pet while you can" because I am 100% SURE this won't be
the case for too much longer! There is no way the designers of this game
could allow this imbalance to stay the way it is! NO CASTERS' PET SHOULD BE
EVEN CLOSE TO THE POWER OF A LEVEL 50 MONK OR A WARRIOR! It's dosen't make
any sense! No sane person could disagree! Why don't they let you summon a
pet that can cast "heal" but make sure it can "heal" BETTER than a CLERIC!
I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?
Drakemoore
a scratch.
- Keep in mind that warriors are a HIGHLY equipment based class. It's
all in the gear.
pete <vge...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:82gtkr$vkf$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
tim
>Lol...my druid leveled at least twice as fast as my warrior after lvl 8.
>Melee more powerful
>at low levels? Maybe until about lvl 8, but thats about 2% of the time we
>spend on a char.
>In fact my group used to ungroup to powerlevel my warrior just so I could
>keep up with them.
I have a dinky little 4th level enchanter, and he kicks some serious
bat/pawn ass compared to how I was doing with my ranger at a similar
level. I'm surprised, but the difference is pretty amazing. Granted I
know a bit more about how to play now, but between him and his
pet I am a little killing machine. It's fun. In fact it's a lot
of fun. I didn't think it would be, but it's more fun than I've
been having with my 20th ranger.
Why? I don't have to camp spawns. There's more stuff to hunt than I
can possibly hunt. My downtime is way lower than it was with my
Ranger at the same level, and way way way way WAY lower than it
is for my ranger right now.
If I want to find a group, I can, easily. Unlike my higher level
ranger who can't get a group to save his sorry ass. Or I can solo
and do it all night long if I want. Whatever *I* am in the mood for,
I don't have crowding and verant shoving it down my throat.
I don't have to camp spawns.
There's enough things to kill.
I don't need to group cause I have my pet.
I know I'm going to get better pets, and won't need to group with
a melee player, which is good, because there arn't very many anymore.
There's lots of rewards to playing. New spells, new items, a big variety
of stuff, and I know the variety isn't going to just dry the fuck up
like it has for my ranger. I know that I'm going to be working to
get things at higher level, but the variety of stuff I have to pick from
is pretty huge. Compared to my ranger who's biggest question right
now is, getting 22nd level spells, and trying to replace his combines
with SSM's in another 8-9 levels or so...
I don't have to compete/share/take turns for spawns. I don't have to wait
assloads of time to kill things, and the downtime is minimal.
I've come to the conclusion that what the game needs more than anything
else is portable chairs, cause you spend an inordinate amount of time
sitting on your ass at higher levels. It's pretty stupid.
I may end up retiring my ranger. Much as I hate the idea, and I truely
do. The game's stacked against him in comparison.
ME
Drakemoore
mobs
and taunting, the mob will quickly re-focus attention on weaker tanks and
rip
them ass to put it bluntly. Then, they will quickly turn onto the casters
and start
to beat them to death. And w/o a good tank with a good taunt around, they
are
as good as dead.
When people look at balance, they are simply looking at "damage power" they
are not looking at all the other things which make up a class and WHY and
HOW
they are balanced.
Sure, if you just look at the sheer ability to kill things there is a
problem, but there
is SO much more.
Darkwillow <darkw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tDB24.1776$w92....@newsfeed.slurp.net...