Character Balance Whiners
fog_...@my-deja.com
Oh quit crying about your class imbalance.
I play a Rogue and can basically do..........nothing.
Apply Poison.....Not Implemented
Make Poison......Not Implemented
Sense Traps......No traps to sense
Disarm Traps.....No traps to disarm
Hide.............Rarely works, cant move and doesnt take you off the
monsters hate list.
Sneak............Ditto. (Though I found one good use for it. If you
sneak up to someone who wont sell to you you can senak up behind them
and right click on them and they will sell to you. I pretend this is
disguise.)
Cant wear good armor, cant use good weapons, no good magic weapons to
use for our class etc etc.
Basically the low of the low as character classes go.
I did a who all on Bristalbane the othernight. Not counting anonymous
there were 4 Rogues myself included in a server for 1700!! I wonder why.
Big deal. Im having too much fun roleplaying and meeting parties to
care if I do more damage then a mage or warrior.
Its not a competition unless you are PVP.
Cheers.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Donavan
get shafted on make poison not working yet and the low number of traps and
locked doors but you are not helpless. Hideing while sneaking is now on the
test server I hear.
<fog_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7n50da$2jk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Gladimir
>Sneak............Ditto. (Though I found one good use for it. If you
>sneak up to someone who wont sell to you you can senak up behind them
>and right click on them and they will sell to you. I pretend this is
>disguise.)
What? You get disguise? OMG! My Troll Warrior is SOOO NERFED! I can't
sneak up to vendors that won't sell to me! BRAD! IMPLEMENT THIS FOR MY
TROLL NOW!!! WHAAAA!!!
- Gladimir, Barbarian Shaman of Clan Blackwatch, Cazic-Thule
- Baphomet, Troll Warrior, Cazic-Thule
D. Bingham Brown
looooooove to cry about how broken and useless they are when they are
just... incomplete.
fog_...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7n50da$2jk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Hail.
>
>Oh quit crying about your class imbalance.
>I play a Rogue and can basically do..........nothing.
>Apply Poison.....Not Implemented
>Make Poison......Not Implemented
>Sense Traps......No traps to sense
>Disarm Traps.....No traps to disarm
No argument. Rogues need them.
>Hide.............Rarely works, cant move and doesnt take you off the
>monsters hate list.
At 27th level, hide works the vast majority of the time for me.
I've escaped very, very many trains through the use of this skill.
It isn't an escape skill like feign death, and is, imo, underpowered,
but it _does_ have uses.
>Sneak............Ditto. (Though I found one good use for it. If you
>sneak up to someone who wont sell to you you can senak up behind them
>and right click on them and they will sell to you. I pretend this is
>disguise.)
Yes, sneak is a glorified merchant exploit right now.
>Cant wear good armor,
Same armour limitations as rangers. We also get the hide equipment which
is very attainable in the low twenties and very much desired by ever
meleer I've run into.
At 27th, I have full banded with a few other magic pieces. I really want
better armour, but so far I've got a decent defense rating as it is... this
is one of my big complaints equipment-wise, that there's a looooong wait
between banded and rubicite.
>cant use good weapons, no good magic weapons to
>use for our class etc etc.
This is utter hogwash.
Of the warriors I see, they're pretty evenly split between wielding
a two-hander and dual wielding. The rangers I see are overwhelmingly
more likely to dual wield. Up until *at least* the thirties, the rogue
is on dead even footing if not ahead of rangers and warriors in terms
of weapon usage. Yeah, rogues have to use a piercing weapon primary,
however, there isn't any lack of good pierces anymore.
For example, take a dragoon dirk. it's magical, 6/23, takes a high
teens or low twenties party to get, or purchasable for 25 plat or so.
Next step up is ashenwood short spear or bloodclaw, one is 6/22, the
other is 6/23 with a 50 damage effect. Both of these weapons come from
the same monster, who is camped 24/7... this isn't quite as bad as it
sounds though, as said monster is camped 24/7 for another, totally seperate
item -- the piercers she drops are considered the 'booby prize' drop and
aren't terribly difficult to acquire from the campers there.
The bloodclaw is also rogue, SK, necromancer only.
At level 19, I was wielding a bloodclaw primary and a dragoon dirk in
my offhand. I see many, many 30ish level rangers and warriors wielding
two barbed leather whips, which aren't as good as either of my weapons.
Some of them wield a whip and a PGT, some a dragoon dirk and a PGT.
Funny thing is, I can wield the PGT just as well as they can.
Now, once you get into the thirties, it's a bit different. You still
need that piercer primary, and you're pretty much stuck with a serrated
bone dirk (8/27, casts engulfing darkness, and casts it a lot) when your
warrior and ranger friends have an electrum bladed wakizashi or a
short sword of the ykesha (7/21 and 8/24 procs 75 damage DD, respectively).
However, you can still wield one of those in your offhand anyway.
Once you get into your teens as a rogue, your weapons are as good if not
better than the other melee types out there -- you only lose out on
two-handers, and you have a higher skill cap in dual wield than warriors
and rangers to make up for that.
>Basically the low of the low as character classes go.
>I did a who all on Bristalbane the othernight. Not counting anonymous
>there were 4 Rogues myself included in a server for 1700!! I wonder why.
>Big deal. Im having too much fun roleplaying and meeting parties to
>care if I do more damage then a mage or warrior.
>Its not a competition unless you are PVP.
Wow. As of late on Tunare, /who all rogue returns the 'too much
information' bit... there used to be only 20-30 on at a time, but now
there seem to be a goodly number more.
Lowinor Silverleaf
Wood elf rogue, 27th level, Tunare
(Yay, my SBD activates now, and it activates _a lot_)
fog_...@my-deja.com
I've found 2 locks in all of Norath.
Both of which I believe can be opened by other means very easily.
Oh well.
The weapons argument was I suppose misdirected. I think what I meant to
say by 'no good weapons' for Rogues was lack of variety of weapons.
You bascially went through the level/weapon of choice for the Rogue.
Any other choice is pretty lame. Dagger -> spear -> Dirk -> etc etc.
Every Rogue weilds the same weapons at the same level. Yawn.
Richard Cortese
> I did a who all on Bristalbane the othernight. Not counting anonymous
> there were 4 Rogues myself included in a server for 1700!! I wonder why.
they are rogues when they tell me after grouping. Still, 4 sounds low, like
you may have mistakenly typed /who rogue vs /who all rogue.
At least 1/2 of the anonymous rogues I see in the game are anonymous because
they are taking advantage of pickpocket skills.
They want the fights to go as long as possible, so they make no effort to
mix it up. They are pretty easy to pick out of a crowd since every time
there is a fight in an area, they saddle up next to the mob and just stand
there. I have never had a rogue in a group that offered to share what they
got by pickpocketing, and I seem to group with rogues about every other
night.
Now tell me, which would you rather group with, a magcian who bandages you,
a healer that cast a heal on you, or a rogue who stands there pickpocketing
the mob while it kills you?
Rogues are unpopular because they have a tendancy to do things that make
them unpopular: Not exactly rocket science here. I think I have been playing
since about 1 month after commercial release, I have yet to have a rogue in
a group offer to share anything they pickpocket off a mob, *never* *ever*.
Guess what? Act like a greedy self centered power gamer or role playing a
greedy self centered rogue, and people will tend to not want to group with
you.
I still group with rogues, but they aren't #1 on my list of people I think
will be fun to group with.
<DL>
<rico...@netmagic.net> wrote:
><fog_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7n50da$2jk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> Hail.
>> Basically the low of the low as character classes go.
>> I did a who all on Bristalbane the othernight. Not counting anonymous
>> there were 4 Rogues myself included in a server for 1700!! I wonder why.
>Virtually every rogue I have seen in the game is anonymous. I only find out
>they are rogues when they tell me after grouping. Still, 4 sounds low, like
>you may have mistakenly typed /who rogue vs /who all rogue.
>
>At least 1/2 of the anonymous rogues I see in the game are anonymous because
>they are taking advantage of pickpocket skills.
And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
I would guess there are more anonymous rogues, because the class is so
useless for anything other than roleplaying reasons.
Usually when there are 1000 people on Karana there are less than 20
non-anonymous rogues. There are usually too many to display for every
other class.
>
>They want the fights to go as long as possible, so they make no effort to
>mix it up. They are pretty easy to pick out of a crowd since every time
>there is a fight in an area, they saddle up next to the mob and just stand
>there. I have never had a rogue in a group that offered to share what they
>got by pickpocketing, and I seem to group with rogues about every other
>night.
>
>Now tell me, which would you rather group with, a magcian who bandages you,
>a healer that cast a heal on you, or a rogue who stands there pickpocketing
>the mob while it kills you?
>
>Rogues are unpopular because they have a tendancy to do things that make
>them unpopular: Not exactly rocket science here. I think I have been playing
>since about 1 month after commercial release, I have yet to have a rogue in
>a group offer to share anything they pickpocket off a mob, *never* *ever*.
>Guess what? Act like a greedy self centered power gamer or role playing a
>greedy self centered rogue, and people will tend to not want to group with
>you.
>
>I still group with rogues, but they aren't #1 on my list of people I think
>will be fun to group with.
If you think this of rogues, you are pretty misinformed. If you
regularly group with rogues who play like this, then you've managed to
find a bunch of idiots to group with. A rogue can pickpocket all
during the battle while attacking. Turn off autoattack, hit
pickpocket, turn back on autoattack. Rinse and repeat.
How much loot do you think a rogue gets from pickpocketing? I'd guess
if you asked they'd be more than happy to give you the 600cp that was
the primary result of an evening's pickpocketing. The most I've ever
earned in a 4 hour stretch was like 800cp, 40sp, 8gp, and no items. I
can easily earn this much from one mob's loot.
Most people play rogues for the roleplaying reasons. The class is not
finished and is by far the weakest overall in the game.
Before you make a bunch of anti-rogue comments, learn something about
the class please.
<DL>
<Narsse on Karana>
<My opinions are my own.>
<My employer's may vary.>
Charles B. Naumann
: And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
: doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
: creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
: it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
: it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
That is not the point. If the rogue is in a group and getting money from
pickpocketing, and he is able to pickpocket BECAUSE he is in a group,
then he really should share the loot, just as casters share buffs.
I never even see rogues anymore.
Charles Naumann
Twilight
>
>And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
>doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
>creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
>it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
>it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
ermm not true.I know a very high lvl rogue who pickpocketed the
rubicite breastplate from the avatar of fear. Also she Disarmed the
giant zweihander from Krag Icebear. They can steal anything from an
NPC. including the money. I am not kidding here. Once for fun she
stole 35 pp 12 gp and some other small coins. from a sand giant.
After we put it down the SG had no cash on him.. and she stole his
fine steel too. i was glad she was in our group tho :P and she was the
master looter. so yeah rouges take the cash from the mosnter loot
pool.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war , a world without hate . And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it. " -Jack Handey
UG
> >And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
> >doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
> >creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
> >it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
> >it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
>
> ermm not true.I know a very high lvl rogue who pickpocketed the
> rubicite breastplate from the avatar of fear.
"I have a friend who..." famous last words. Brad himself has said that the
loot pool for pickpocket is ENTIRELY different than the loot pool for death
treasure.
> Also she Disarmed the
> giant zweihander from Krag Icebear.
Repeat after me; pickpocket is not disarm. disarm is not pickpocket.
> They can steal anything from an
> NPC. including the money. I am not kidding here. Once for fun she
> stole 35 pp 12 gp and some other small coins. from a sand giant.
> After we put it down the SG had no cash on him.. and she stole his
> fine steel too. i was glad she was in our group tho :P and she was the
> master looter. so yeah rouges take the cash from the mosnter loot
> pool.
No, they dont.
fog_...@my-deja.com
>
> Rogues are unpopular because they have a tendancy to do things that
make
> them unpopular: Not exactly rocket science here. I think I have been
playing
> since about 1 month after commercial release, I have yet to have a
rogue in
> a group offer to share anything they pickpocket off a mob, *never*
*ever*.
> Guess what? Act like a greedy self centered power gamer or role
playing a
> greedy self centered rogue, and people will tend to not want to group
with
> you.
>
> I still group with rogues, but they aren't #1 on my list of people I
think
> will be fun to group with.
>
>
Its just not feasible to share what you pickpocket. I have a relatively
high level rogue. Most of the time when in a fight the report will look
like this...
You get 3 silver
You get 1 silver
You get 60 copper
What is the rogue going to do? DURING a fight keep a tally of what he
has taken? For me its just a refelx, to turn off autoattack, pickpocket
and switch it back on in one motion.
Now at the end take the 9 or 10 silver, maybe a couple of gp and then
divide it by 5 or 6 everytime and split it? I dont think so.
Once in a while an item will pop up. You cant split those without
selling them, and even then I never have gotten an item worth more than
a couple of plat. And even then its RARE to get an item worth that much.
Now as it stands now there are very few rogue skills that work. We
cannot sell SOW and Buffs. We cannot sell Binds etc etc.
The pickpocket inventory is seperate from the loot (- the items) so it
doesnt hurt anyone. Why not get to keep your spoils from one of the few
skills that works and can earn you some cash?
Doesnt hurt anyone else. Its just not feasible to share that loot.
Would be there all night calculating the distribution for a paltry bit
of copper.
fog_...@my-deja.com
twil...@REMOVETHIS.ihug.co.nz (Twilight) wrote:
>
> >
> >And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
> >doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
> >creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool.
Otherwise
> >it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
> >it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
>
> ermm not true.I know a very high lvl rogue who pickpocketed the
> giant zweihander from Krag Icebear. They can steal anything from an
> NPC. including the money. I am not kidding here. Once for fun she
> stole 35 pp 12 gp and some other small coins. from a sand giant.
> After we put it down the SG had no cash on him.. and she stole his
> fine steel too. i was glad she was in our group tho :P and she was the
> master looter. so yeah rouges take the cash from the mosnter loot
> pool.
>
. And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect
it. " -Jack Handey
>
I believe you are half correct from my experience. I believe you can
take items but not the money. I am pretty sure( almost 100%) that the
money is an independant pool. I think it said so in an earlier patch.
Some monsters die and have nothing on them.
Rob Illing
The disarm thing might work, but honestly... what use is it?
And money/items DO come from a different pool. Brad McQuaid has said so on
several occasions.
Cheers,
Rob
fog_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > ermm not true.I know a very high lvl rogue who pickpocketed the
> > rubicite breastplate from the avatar of fear. Also she Disarmed the
> > giant zweihander from Krag Icebear. They can steal anything from an
> > NPC. including the money. I am not kidding here. Once for fun she
> > stole 35 pp 12 gp and some other small coins. from a sand giant.
> > After we put it down the SG had no cash on him.. and she stole his
> > fine steel too. i was glad she was in our group tho :P and she was the
> > master looter. so yeah rouges take the cash from the mosnter loot
> > pool.
>
Richard Cortese
news:37966d5a....@172.17.12.1...
> On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:30:55 -0000, "Richard Cortese"
> <rico...@netmagic.net> wrote:
>
> >At least 1/2 of the anonymous rogues I see in the game are anonymous
because
> >they are taking advantage of pickpocket skills.
>
> doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
> creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
> it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
> it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
the monster you are fighting, it is a rogue and they are using pickpocket
skill. They wait until you engage it so they don't get attacked, then start
pickpocketing.
I know about the seperate loot pools.
They are using you and/or your group as a tank/decoy. I have seen as low as
level 4 rogues doing this in areas like N Ro platform. They shouldn't be too
sucessful at that level though.
I have never seen one of them help out.
>
> I would guess there are more anonymous rogues, because the class is so
> useless for anything other than roleplaying reasons.
Nope, I stand by my statement<elsewhere> that at the early levels, rogues
are as good a tank as a warrior one level below them. Choice between a level
8 paladin, warior, or level 9 rogue is a wash. There is no reason to chose
one over the other.
There would be a reason if the rogue shared what they pickpocketed off a
mob, but like I said, in 4 months of playing the game I have never even
heard of a rogue offering to share the loot they get while you are tanking,
so no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.
>
> Usually when there are 1000 people on Karana there are less than 20
> non-anonymous rogues. There are usually too many to display for every
> other class.
Only 21 last night on Eci, 4 in the original post still sounds a little low
to me.
> >I still group with rogues, but they aren't #1 on my list of people I
think
> >will be fun to group with.
>
> If you think this of rogues, you are pretty misinformed. If you
> regularly group with rogues who play like this, then you've managed to
> find a bunch of idiots to group with. A rogue can pickpocket all
> during the battle while attacking. Turn off autoattack, hit
> pickpocket, turn back on autoattack. Rinse and repeat.
How can my personal experience be misinformed when I say I group with rogues
about every other time I group?
I am saying the only time a rogue groups is when they want experience. I
will use the 'E word, I consider a solo rogue that waits until someone or
group engage a monster so they can pickpocket it an exploit.
Most of the people who have rogues in the newsgroup do not play them this
way, more team orientated, but they are not representative of the way most
people in the game play their rogues.
In the game, most rouges will not group unless they are looking for
experience, they will saddle up to a monster you are fighting and pickpocket
it. If you are near death, they will move away so they don't have to take
damage if the mob targets them and let you die.
>
> How much loot do you think a rogue gets from pickpocketing? I'd guess
> if you asked they'd be more than happy to give you the 600cp that was
> the primary result of an evening's pickpocketing. The most I've ever
> earned in a 4 hour stretch was like 800cp, 40sp, 8gp, and no items. I
> can easily earn this much from one mob's loot.
Someone else posted a reply to this with something like 32 pt, FS weapon,
etcetera. I have had rogues tell me what they got off of mobs and the pool
seems to be the same size as the regular pool. i.e. if it is a mob that is
worth 4 silver and cloth to kill, they get 4 silver and cloth off of it. If
it is a mob with gold, they get gold.
So with a rogue not killing a single mob, they can get as much as the
person/group fighting the mob. I have had a rogue get more off a mob I
killed then I got and he didn't even go into combat. If they are in a group
with one other, they get that pool + 1/2 the kill loot or about 3 times as
much as the other person in the group.
There seems to be a non displayed stat in the game. Call it luck, call it
treasure finding, call it karma, doesn't matter, but some characters seem to
have an inate ability to do certain things better then others. It could be
there is some odd combination of stats and race that make some rogues more
efficient then others, but there does seem to be a night and day difference
between any two rogues.
>
> Most people play rogues for the roleplaying reasons. The class is not
> finished and is by far the weakest overall in the game.
>
> Before you make a bunch of anti-rogue comments, learn something about
> the class please.
I seem to know much more about the class then you do.
I am aware of your high concept of how a rogue should be played, but quite
honestly you don't know much about how anyone else seems to play them.
Go back to the game and try playing it the way I just informed you and see
if you still think a rogue is underpowered. Free loot, no down time, most
loot in the group when you do group, pretty sweet deal if you ask me.
I wouldn't reccomend you play that way all the time, but it is an option
available that no other character class in the game has available.
<DL>
>twil...@REMOVETHIS.ihug.co.nz (Twilight) writes:
>
>
>> >And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
>> >doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
>> >creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
>> >it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
>> >it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
>>
>> ermm not true.I know a very high lvl rogue who pickpocketed the
>> rubicite breastplate from the avatar of fear.
>
>"I have a friend who..." famous last words. Brad himself has said that the
>loot pool for pickpocket is ENTIRELY different than the loot pool for death
>treasure.
>
>
>> Also she Disarmed the
>> giant zweihander from Krag Icebear.
>
>Repeat after me; pickpocket is not disarm. disarm is not pickpocket.
Actually, I did once manage to pickpocket the weapon a derv was using.
Instantly another weapon of a different kind spawned in the derv's
hand. This has only happened once to me and it was in the first month
of release.
>
>
>> They can steal anything from an
>> NPC. including the money. I am not kidding here. Once for fun she
>> stole 35 pp 12 gp and some other small coins. from a sand giant.
>> After we put it down the SG had no cash on him.. and she stole his
>> fine steel too. i was glad she was in our group tho :P and she was the
>> master looter. so yeah rouges take the cash from the mosnter loot
>> pool.
>
>No, they dont.
<DL>
<rob-i...@newearth.co.uk> wrote:
>You cannot steal worn items. Trust me, I have 155 pickpocket skill.
Depends on the definition of worn. I've stolen piles of orc
Legionnaire bracers and some rawhide.
>
>The disarm thing might work, but honestly... what use is it?
Yeah, the mobs seem to punch even harder after you manage to disarm
them.
>
>And money/items DO come from a different pool. Brad McQuaid has said so on
>several occasions.
<snip>
<DL>
(Twilight) wrote:
>
>>
>>And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
>>doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
>>creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
>>it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
>>it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
>
>ermm not true.I know a very high lvl rogue who pickpocketed the
>rubicite breastplate from the avatar of fear. Also she Disarmed the
>giant zweihander from Krag Icebear. They can steal anything from an
>NPC. including the money. I am not kidding here. Once for fun she
>stole 35 pp 12 gp and some other small coins. from a sand giant.
>After we put it down the SG had no cash on him.. and she stole his
>fine steel too. i was glad she was in our group tho :P and she was the
>master looter. so yeah rouges take the cash from the mosnter loot
>pool.
>
Yes, they can steal anything the mob possibly could be carrying. If a
rogue steals the mob's weapon, then a new weapon is respawned in the
mob's hand in every case I've seen. Sometimes it is a different
weapon. I once pickpocketed a bronze sword, and the mob then had a
bronze main gauche in its hand instead. That was a couple of months
ago. That's the only time I've ever managed to pickpocket a weapon
the mob was weilding though.
Loot is generated on death by the mob unless it is a weapon in their
hand. That is what Verant has stated repeatedly.
How else could you steal a lore item and then the lore item also
exists on the mob once it is dead? I've had this happen w/ Rondo's
tongue, Crushbone shackle keys, the spellbook that sometimes spawns in
Crushbone on higher level orcs, BurnedOut lightstones, Highhold orc
scalps, and probably some other items that I'm forgetting.
I've talked to friends who have killed SGs before and there wasn't a
bit of loot on them. No rogue in the group either. Hmmm, maybe it
was just an unlucky draw. Wait, it couldn't be that. Some rogue must
have pickpocketed all the loot beforehand. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Sometimes mobs just don't have any loot after they are killed. Other
times, I pickpocket the hell out of them and get piles of coin. Once
I loot them they've still got a large amount of coinage on the body
and more items.
While I'm writing this, the two people I group with most just stopped
by my desk. They also group with other players. They have noticed no
decrease in loot from when they are grouped with me as compared to
grouping with others. I usually end up giving them piles of the coins
because they can pack more weight than me. Actually we are at the
point of throwing away coin now unless we happen to be near a bank.
<DL>
<rico...@netmagic.net> wrote:
><DL> <leon...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:37966d5a....@172.17.12.1...
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:30:55 -0000, "Richard Cortese"
>> <rico...@netmagic.net> wrote:
>>
>> >At least 1/2 of the anonymous rogues I see in the game are anonymous
>because
>> >they are taking advantage of pickpocket skills.
>>
>> And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
>> doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
>> creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
>> it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
>> it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
>Nope, you see an anonymous player that for some reason saddles up next to
>the monster you are fighting, it is a rogue and they are using pickpocket
>skill. They wait until you engage it so they don't get attacked, then start
>pickpocketing.
>
>I know about the seperate loot pools.
>
>They are using you and/or your group as a tank/decoy. I have seen as low as
>level 4 rogues doing this in areas like N Ro platform. They shouldn't be too
>sucessful at that level though.
Quit fighting for a minute or three and let the mobs slaughter the
rogues when they notice the pickpocketing. Easy solution. This works
pretty well when a necro or wiz keeps killstealing from a group too.
>
>I have never seen one of them help out.
>>
>> I would guess there are more anonymous rogues, because the class is so
>> useless for anything other than roleplaying reasons.
>Nope, I stand by my statement<elsewhere> that at the early levels, rogues
>are as good a tank as a warrior one level below them. Choice between a level
>8 paladin, warior, or level 9 rogue is a wash. There is no reason to chose
>one over the other.
Who cares about the lower levels? Since warriors hp increase per
level at a greater rate than rogues, the difference doesn't really
begin to glare until past level 10.
Any class can be soloed to level 10 in less than 2 days /played. The
true test is levels 10-50. Rogues just aren't as useful later on as
compared to any other class.
>
>There would be a reason if the rogue shared what they pickpocketed off a
>mob, but like I said, in 4 months of playing the game I have never even
>heard of a rogue offering to share the loot they get while you are tanking,
>so no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.
>>
>> Usually when there are 1000 people on Karana there are less than 20
>> non-anonymous rogues. There are usually too many to display for every
>> other class.
>Only 21 last night on Eci, 4 in the original post still sounds a little low
>to me.
>
>> >I still group with rogues, but they aren't #1 on my list of people I
>think
>> >will be fun to group with.
>>
>> If you think this of rogues, you are pretty misinformed. If you
>> regularly group with rogues who play like this, then you've managed to
>> find a bunch of idiots to group with. A rogue can pickpocket all
>> during the battle while attacking. Turn off autoattack, hit
>> pickpocket, turn back on autoattack. Rinse and repeat.
>How can my personal experience be misinformed when I say I group with rogues
>about every other time I group?
Why do you continue to group with them if you resent their lack of
sharing?
>
>I am saying the only time a rogue groups is when they want experience. I
>will use the 'E word, I consider a solo rogue that waits until someone or
>group engage a monster so they can pickpocket it an exploit.
You do realize that mobs will frequently notice a pickpocket attempt
don't you? If a rogue is soloing and tries to pickpocket anything
above a blue, they are gambling their life on that pickpocket attempt.
>
>Most of the people who have rogues in the newsgroup do not play them this
>way, more team orientated, but they are not representative of the way most
>people in the game play their rogues.
Most people just don't play rogues. They pretty much suck compared to
other classes.
>
>In the game, most rouges will not group unless they are looking for
>experience, they will saddle up to a monster you are fighting and pickpocket
>it. If you are near death, they will move away so they don't have to take
>damage if the mob targets them and let you die.
I have never seen this. I traveled all over, soloing and grouping. I
started 3 days after release and have never seen a scenario like the
one you are describing.
>>
>> How much loot do you think a rogue gets from pickpocketing? I'd guess
>> if you asked they'd be more than happy to give you the 600cp that was
>> the primary result of an evening's pickpocketing. The most I've ever
>> earned in a 4 hour stretch was like 800cp, 40sp, 8gp, and no items. I
>> can easily earn this much from one mob's loot.
>Someone else posted a reply to this with something like 32 pt, FS weapon,
>etcetera. I have had rogues tell me what they got off of mobs and the pool
>seems to be the same size as the regular pool. i.e. if it is a mob that is
>worth 4 silver and cloth to kill, they get 4 silver and cloth off of it. If
>it is a mob with gold, they get gold.
>
Here's a few examples of kills that I had last night.
Orc legionnaire: pickpocketed 1gp, 4sp, 40cp. looted shoulderpads,
bracer, 1gp, 2sp
Orc legionnaire: pickpocketed 5sp, 60cp. looted bracer, rusty spear,
6sp
Orc centurion: pickpocketed 1sp, 90cp. looted cloth wristband, rusty
2handed sword, 4sp
Orc Emissary: pickpocketed nothing. looted rusty spear
(emissaries suck)
Royal Guard: pickpocketed 2gp, 5sp. looted bronze spear, bronze
dagger, 1gp 8sp
Orc Slaver: pickpocketed shackle key 15, 4sp, 60cp. looted shackle
key 15, rusty broadsword, 1gp, 5sp.
(left the key on the body since it is a lore item.)
Taskmaster; pickpocketed 3gp, 6sp. looted whip, 1gp 5sp.
This is a totally typical sampling of how most of my fights go. This
was in about an hour worth of soloing. There were many other battles,
but I got tired of writing the data down.
For some reason green mobs are easier to pickpocket more loot than
they would normally drop. I can pickpocket a pawn and get like 60cp
in 3 attempts. Normally a pawn drops less then 10cp. Same thing
happens w/ centurions sometimes. I'll pickpocket over 100cp 5sp and
only loot a couple of silver. However, items frequently more than
make up the difference it seems like.
>So with a rogue not killing a single mob, they can get as much as the
>person/group fighting the mob. I have had a rogue get more off a mob I
>killed then I got and he didn't even go into combat. If they are in a group
>with one other, they get that pool + 1/2 the kill loot or about 3 times as
>much as the other person in the group.
I'd say it is about 40% more than the other person in the group.
Personally, I give away piles of stuff to my group members. They
usually earn far more in a night than I do. I don't need the money
that much right now.
If you want lots of low risk loot there's lots better ways to get it
as compared to pickpocketing. I don't look to pickpocketing as a way
to earn money. If I wanted money, I'd go kill some of the phat loot
mobs and make way more in a shorter period of time.
>
>There seems to be a non displayed stat in the game. Call it luck, call it
>treasure finding, call it karma, doesn't matter, but some characters seem to
>have an inate ability to do certain things better then others. It could be
>there is some odd combination of stats and race that make some rogues more
>efficient then others, but there does seem to be a night and day difference
>between any two rogues.
You are totally right about this IMO. There have been rumors in the
past of hidden stats including luck.
>>
>> Most people play rogues for the roleplaying reasons. The class is not
>> finished and is by far the weakest overall in the game.
>>
>> Before you make a bunch of anti-rogue comments, learn something about
>> the class please.
>I seem to know much more about the class then you do.
>
>I am aware of your high concept of how a rogue should be played, but quite
>honestly you don't know much about how anyone else seems to play them.
>
>Go back to the game and try playing it the way I just informed you and see
>if you still think a rogue is underpowered. Free loot, no down time, most
>loot in the group when you do group, pretty sweet deal if you ask me.
Hell no. I LIKE killing things. Pickpocketing is just the little
extra that keeps me from getting bored. Also, I'd probably get
slaughtered when the people around me quit hitting on the mobs, and
the mobs turn on me.
Davian
Richard Cortese <rico...@netmagic.net> wrote in message
news:93265881...@news.remarQ.com...
> <DL> <leon...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:37966d5a....@172.17.12.1...
> > On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:30:55 -0000, "Richard Cortese"
> > <rico...@netmagic.net> wrote:
> >
> > >At least 1/2 of the anonymous rogues I see in the game are anonymous
> because
> > >they are taking advantage of pickpocket skills.
> >
> > And how are they doing that? You can't pickpocket players, and it
> > doesn't affect the mob loot pool. The loot pool is generated at
> > creature death totally separately from the pickpocket pool. Otherwise
> > it wouldn't be possible to both pickpocket a lore item and then have
> > it on the corpse when the corpse is looted.
> Nope, you see an anonymous player that for some reason saddles up next to
> the monster you are fighting, it is a rogue and they are using pickpocket
> skill. They wait until you engage it so they don't get attacked, then
start
> pickpocketing.
>
> I know about the seperate loot pools.
>
> They are using you and/or your group as a tank/decoy. I have seen as low
as
> level 4 rogues doing this in areas like N Ro platform. They shouldn't be
too
> sucessful at that level though.
>
I highly doubt you've seen any level 4 rogue doing this... actually,
considering they don't even get pickpocket until level 7, it's an
impossiblity.
> I have never seen one of them help out.
When playing my rogue, I will routinely step to the rear of a monster and
backstab it, if the person looks in trouble. It's a high hit that will
make a big difference... and without turnng on my normal attack, there is no
chance of stealing the kill.
> >
> > I would guess there are more anonymous rogues, because the class is so
> > useless for anything other than roleplaying reasons.
> Nope, I stand by my statement<elsewhere> that at the early levels, rogues
> are as good a tank as a warrior one level below them. Choice between a
level
> 8 paladin, warior, or level 9 rogue is a wash. There is no reason to chose
> one over the other.
At level 8, a druid or cleric could tank succesfully and easily. At level
4, a wizard can tank if he really wants to. Whats your point?
>
> > >I still group with rogues, but they aren't #1 on my list of people I
> think
> > >will be fun to group with.
> >
> > If you think this of rogues, you are pretty misinformed. If you
> > regularly group with rogues who play like this, then you've managed to
> > find a bunch of idiots to group with. A rogue can pickpocket all
> > during the battle while attacking. Turn off autoattack, hit
> > pickpocket, turn back on autoattack. Rinse and repeat.
> How can my personal experience be misinformed when I say I group with
rogues
> about every other time I group?
>
> I am saying the only time a rogue groups is when they want experience. I
> will use the 'E word, I consider a solo rogue that waits until someone or
> group engage a monster so they can pickpocket it an exploit.
>
> Most of the people who have rogues in the newsgroup do not play them this
> way, more team orientated, but they are not representative of the way most
> people in the game play their rogues.
>
> In the game, most rouges will not group unless they are looking for
> experience, they will saddle up to a monster you are fighting and
pickpocket
> it. If you are near death, they will move away so they don't have to take
> damage if the mob targets them and let you die.
And all spellcasters are killstealers.
No downtime!!!! Oh my God. I must be sitting on my ass for 20 minutes
after every battle for my own personal amusement then. I see... I must
have *really* wanted to max out sense traps, since thats such an important
skill in this game.
Davian
Rob Illing
> >You cannot steal worn items. Trust me, I have 155 pickpocket skill.
> Depends on the definition of worn. I've stolen piles of orc
> Legionnaire bracers and some rawhide.
I've had a long and illustrius thieving career, and I've never stolen a worn
item, ever.
> >The disarm thing might work, but honestly... what use is it?
> Yeah, the mobs seem to punch even harder after you manage to disarm
> them.
I wouldn't say harder. They hit as hard, but the weapon delay is no longer in
effect, so that monster wielding a 2 handed sword is better left with the sword
:)
Cheers,
Rob