Save the Pumice!
The Cynic
nevertheless, check out this link:
http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum4/HTML/063703.html
Read that and bump the thread. It's in regards to the recent STEALTH NERF
made by Verant, whereby all Egg Shaped Pumice have been removed from vendors
and replaced with 'Crystallized Pumice'. The difference? New pumice has a
4.5 second cast time.
Net result? Melees in PvP have just had their backs broken. Thanks
Verant. I've spent 10 months developing a troll warrior. I'm within half a
bubble of level 54 and have a solid history of roleplaying to boot. I've
put a lot of time and dedication into this character and was looking forward
to more of the same. Now you've removed the one item in the game that gave
any semblance of balance between meleers and casters, and I will either be
disgraced on the battlefield or I can quit playing PvP. Awesome choices you
present me with, and a fine example of why you shouldn't go nerfing shit for
no reason.
Bert Ulrich
Egg Shaped Pumice is charged with....cancel magic?
This is good for warriors if you get ganked then?
Aamen Palantir
Fennin Ro
--
"Your foes seem endless, their tales unknown."
The Cynic <pecos...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MKye5.24978$661.4...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
Robert Coleman
can cancel all the DoTs and such that are cast on them. Egg Shaped Pumice
is still in the game, however. Verant stated that it drops off a mob now.
Robert Coleman
----------------------------------------
Gaeodar
16th Level Human Wizard - Retired
Veeshan Server
Zarul
5th Level Iksar Shaman
Artanic
5th Level Wood Elf Bard
Sinvin Heartfang
39th Level Dark Elf Cleric
E'ci Server
"Bert Ulrich" <bul...@nospam.optonline.net> wrote in message
news:r_ze5.2499$pC1.15897@news02...
Dark Tyger
<pecos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Net result? Melees in PvP have just had their backs broken.
Boo-hoo. DoTs are actually (*GASP!*) effective against warriors in PvP
now... The new Pumice still cancels magic. It's just (perish the
thought) imperfect.
BTW, I do seem to recall them mentioning this. It's not exactly new
news...
--
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The Cynic
>Boo-hoo. DoTs are actually (*GASP!*) effective against warriors in PvP
>now... The new Pumice still cancels magic. It's just (perish the
>thought) imperfect.
Hey Sherlock, warriors were AT BEST given a 50/50 chance versus any equal
level caster in PvP. And that's assuming the warrior has good resist gear
and a decent ability to track a "quake-stepping" opponet.
Now that (*GASP!*) DoT's are actually effective, the warrior's chances are
SIGNIFICANTLY reduced. (That's significantly reduced below a 50% chance.)
Basically the only way they'd win now is versus an utter idiot of an
opponet. One snare = dead melee. And the virtually UNRESISTABLE dot's like
Winged Death and Splurt throw all semblance of balance out the window. You
know there have been times where I've used up 8 charges of Nullify Magic and
STILL had Ensnare on me? And now it takes 4.5 seconds to use 1 charge?
Bullshit.
But don't get all smug thinking your wizard will be "phat" in battles now.
The only winners are necros and druids. DD casters like wizards are
fucked -- their ability to defend themselves has been reduced while their
offensive power has stayed the same. True, your opponet can't easily
dispell your diamondskin. Guess what? Most DOT's and necro spells attack
your hit points without ever touching your diamondskin anyway. Shaman are
fucked too -- the inability to cancel Dead Man Floating and Resist Cold is
going to reduce their offensive power to near 0. Sure, they can keep their
buffs, but all the buffs in the world won't save them for the unresistable
DOT's of their opponets. Magicians? Fucked. Without the ability to
quickly dispell root/snare/fear off of their pet, they are nothing more than
second rate wizards in combat.
One Winged Death will kill or nearly kill a high level caster. They HAVE to
dispell it if they expect to live. Are you going to stand there and cast
Nullify Magic? You'll get hit with a Starfire upside the head if you do.
Basically it means that anytime you spot a necro or druid in PvP, you'd
better gate, cause as soon as they land 1 of their unresistable DOT's on
you, you'll have to gate anyway just to have enough time to dispell it.
This nerf does nothing but improve the two classes that were ALREADY
declared to be the top 2 most powerful PvP classes. Verant has got to be,
for lack of a better term, fucking stupid.
>BTW, I do seem to recall them mentioning this. It's not exactly new
>news...
It's new news because they just implemented it in the last patch. There
were protesting threads on the boards, but of course they ignored them.
As a closing comment, I can say it's obvious you've never played on a PvP
server past level 25. If this nerf stays in effect, I'd advise you to not
bother going to PvP. If Verant is intent on destroying, for no reason, what
smidgen of balance there was, then we might as well all wait for Shadowbane.
The Cynic
> Yep, pumice makes the melee types quite a match for any caster as they
>can cancel all the DoTs and such that are cast on them. Egg Shaped Pumice
>is still in the game, however. Verant stated that it drops off a mob now.
Supposedly. I have yet to hear of anyone finding one. For all we know,
they drop off of Lord Nagafen.
At any rate, there are days of heavy PK'ing where I'll use up 10 or more
pumice. Unless they drop off of fire beetles in place of fire beetle eyes,
that means some SERIOUS camping is going to be called for just to aquire an
item I used to be able to buy from a store for 18 plat.
And as any level 30+ meleer on a PvP server will tell you, this item is all
the difference in the world between having a chance in battle and just being
repeatedly humiliated.
Ensnare lasts 10 minutes. You have to dispell it. Warriors, monks and
rogues have a channeling skill of 0. A druid can actually interrupt us by
hitting for 1 damage with their little sticks. Basically once we get
ensnared, we'll stay ensnared until we die now.
Bullshit. I spent 10+ months leveling up a warrior so they could do this??
Adar
"Dark Tyger" <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:397e9194....@news.mindspring.com...
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:38:45 GMT, Dennis Francis Heffernan
> <dfra...@email.com> wrote:
>
> > And that's with an item. Fighters should not need a special item (above
> >and beyond their usual armor and weapons) to have chance against casters.
>
> Maybe Pumice should be considered their "usual armor and weapons" in
> pvp... Special situations create special needs. And I say pvp
> definately qualifies as a special situation in EQ.
>
> Now, I do agree that the casting time sounds a bit high. Maybe if it
> was un-interruptable... *shrug* (I don't know, is it?) But, like I
> said, be glad the cancel magic ability is given in ANY form...
>
Read the post next time.
Pure melees have a channeling of ZERO. Zero channeling means that ANY hit or
ANY motion will *automatically* interrupt the spell with no chance of
success. The new stones are useless because a hit from a druid's obsidian
scimitar or what have you for 1 point of damage within the 4.5 seconds is a
guaranteed interrupt.
This will likely be reversed for PvP, or another kludgy work around
subsistuted at some point- six months from now.
WTG Verant.
Nuuk Lea'R (E'ci)
Anthony
> Pure melees have a channeling of ZERO. Zero channeling means that ANY hit
or
> ANY motion will *automatically* interrupt the spell with no chance of
> success. The new stones are useless because a hit from a druid's obsidian
> scimitar or what have you for 1 point of damage within the 4.5 seconds is
a
> guaranteed interrupt.
>
> This will likely be reversed for PvP, or another kludgy work around
> subsistuted at some point- six months from now.
Seems a bit insane that any item should have an interruptable casting time,
but there I go thinking again. Have to stop that.
Dark Tyger
<pecos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
You know, you talk as if the pumice was removed completely. Adding a
casting time to the cancel magic effect didn't render it totally
ineffective. Just less than perfect...
Frankly, you should be grateful tanks have cancel magic available to
them in any form at all...
And, honestly, a 50/50 chance in pvp against an equal level for ANY
class sounds like a properly balanced class to me.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|You know, you talk as if the pumice was removed completely. Adding a
|casting time to the cancel magic effect didn't render it totally
|ineffective. Just less than perfect...
No, it made it ineffective.
4.5 seconds casting time? You'll never cast it. That's the same casting
time as GATE. Try Gating out while you're getting beat on -- and you have
Channeling. The fighters don't.
|And, honestly, a 50/50 chance in pvp against an equal level for ANY
|class sounds like a properly balanced class to me.
They barely had a 50/50 chance with the old Pumice. The new one gives
them NO chance.
And that's with an item. Fighters should not need a special item (above
and beyond their usual armor and weapons) to have chance against casters.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat
Dark Tyger
<dfra...@email.com> wrote:
> And that's with an item. Fighters should not need a special item (above
>and beyond their usual armor and weapons) to have chance against casters.
Maybe Pumice should be considered their "usual armor and weapons" in
pvp... Special situations create special needs. And I say pvp
definately qualifies as a special situation in EQ.
Now, I do agree that the casting time sounds a bit high. Maybe if it
was un-interruptable... *shrug* (I don't know, is it?) But, like I
said, be glad the cancel magic ability is given in ANY form...
--
Dark Tyger
Tyger) wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:38:45 GMT, Dennis Francis Heffernan
><dfra...@email.com> wrote:
>
>> And that's with an item. Fighters should not need a special item (above
>>and beyond their usual armor and weapons) to have chance against casters.
>
>Maybe Pumice should be considered their "usual armor and weapons" in
>pvp... Special situations create special needs. And I say pvp
>definately qualifies as a special situation in EQ.
>
>Now, I do agree that the casting time sounds a bit high. Maybe if it
>was un-interruptable... *shrug* (I don't know, is it?) But, like I
>said, be glad the cancel magic ability is given in ANY form...
An aside to my...emmm..."fans": There, does that sound a little less
"apologist"?
Dark Tyger
wrote:
Which was my line of thinking. Despite what Adar thinks, I actually
DID read the post. Logicly, channelling skill should be irrelevant to
an item spell...
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|But, like I
|said, be glad the cancel magic ability is given in ANY form...
You should not have to be thankful for balance; you are entitled to it.
Dark Tyger
<dfra...@email.com> wrote:
> You should not have to be thankful for balance; you are entitled to it.
Actually, you're not "entitled" to anything...
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 03:49:31 GMT, Dennis Francis Heffernan
|<dfra...@email.com> wrote:
|
|> You should not have to be thankful for balance; you are entitled to it.
|
|Actually, you're not "entitled" to anything...
In a game, you certainly are entitled to balance.
Ian Firth
Try something new ?
--
Regards,
Ian Firth
Dark Tyger
<dfra...@email.com> wrote:
>In a game, you certainly are entitled to balance.
It's not your game. You didn't create it. You don't own the rights to
it. You can express what you want in the game, but, in the end, the
only ones actually "entitled" to anything are Verant. You're not even
"entitled" to PLAY the game. You're granted the privilege. That's all
you have.
You kinda remind me of the guy who got put in jail because he insisted
on driving and refused to get a liscence. He said it was
unconstitutional to make him get a driver's liscence... That driving
was his right.
...or anybody else who screams "IT'S MY RIGHT!" when they don't get
their way...
Dark Tyger
>Start another character ?
>Try something new ?
Way too easy. The might find a character they can play effectively and
then what would they whine about?
The Cynic
>It's not your game. You didn't create it. You don't own the rights to
>it. You can express what you want in the game, but, in the end, the
>only ones actually "entitled" to anything are Verant. You're not even
>"entitled" to PLAY the game. You're granted the privilege. That's all
>you have.
Verant also isn't "entitled" to my money. Once more people realize the
impact of the pumice nerf, I think PvP will go down the tubes. They'll have
to either restore pumice or make some other, probably significantly more
complicated fix to readjust the balance. Almost every meleer I know over
level 45 on my server is saying they're going to either quit or change
characters when they run out of pumice. Nobody wants to get owned every day
just because the game designers are smoking crack.
Even necros and druids, who benefit the most from this, should be opposed to
the change. Most of their "phat lewt" out of the planes and deep into
dungeons requires tanks, and if you run off three-fourths of the tanks from
the PvP servers, then EVERYONE is going to come out a loser. "Sorry guys,
we had to scrap the trip to hate, we could only find 1 tank and no pullers".
Either that or necros are gonna have to learn how to feign pull, lol.
It certainly isn't our "right" to have a balanced game. We'll just quit
playing and paying, but I doubt Verant wants that.
Ben wilson
<dark...@mindspring.com> writes
>>Net result? Melees in PvP have just had their backs broken.
>
>now... The new Pumice still cancels magic. It's just (perish the
>thought) imperfect.
I don't play PvP at all, yet even I can see the point that you seem to
be deliberately missing. It is NOT the fact that DoTs are effective, is
is the fact that the entire balance of melee vs. caster PvP has been
shifted. This is an item melees have relied on to be viable in PvP. A
reagent if you will. Would clerics be happy for peridots and jaspers to
be removed from merchants? Would necros be happy for bone chips become a
rare drop? What about if food and drink weren't sold at merchants any
more and you had to hunt rabbits for food and loot water sacks off agro
plants?
You can argue for all the above examples, but it's totally unreasonable
to implement such a change so late into the game, after people have
relied on them for so long. It's not like melees were overpowered in PvP
to start with LOL
--
Demorgoth Demonia
Ogre Champion
Souls of the Shadow
E'ci
The Cynic
>Start another character ?
>Try something new ?
That's an amazingly lame suggestion. I have played my current character for
10 months. It's fun. I like it. I refuse to start over a new character
just because Verant decides to up and screw me over. Maybe people like
"Dark Tyger" are gullible idiots and will keep switching everytime there's a
problem, continuing to be lead like sheep, forking over cash and never
complaining when their character's ability gets wiped out by a new nerf, but
that's not my way of doing things. I have leveled up my last character, I
am not going to replay the newbie days because of something Verant did.
You're asking me to give up 53.9 levels of roleplaying and XP'ing because of
a dumbass move by Verant. I don't think so.
I could build up a new character for 10 more months and then have them
change the rules again. ("In this patch, we have decided to remove necro
pets altogether...") Ha! IMO, taking pets away from necros is a good
comparison to what the pumice nerf has done to warriors, at least for PvP.
Yes, there's a "replacement" pumice, but 4.5 second interruptable cast time
pumice is as good as no pumice for a melee class. Only way we'd get to
activate it is to run away and use it. You can't run away and use it if
you're snared. (It also makes it completely useless as a PvE item. Every
puller worth his salt carries an Egg Shaped Pumice in Lower Guk, so they can
dispell Ghoul Root. You'll NEVER get the new pumice to work when you get
ghoul rooted with 1-3 frogs whacking on you.)
Or to abuse an old phrase, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice and I'd
have to be a gullible idiot.
Just for the record, even if they made it uninterruptable, that wouldn't
help much. It's only "Nullify Magic". That's just 1 step above "Cancel
Magic". It's a weak spell. Several times I have hit myself with a full 5
charges, when the only effect on me was Ensnare, and it didn't remove the
effect. At 4.5 seconds per cast, I should just fall on my sword and save
the druid some trouble. Bad enough 1 spell can cost me 18 platinum to
remove, now it costs me 18 platinum and over 20 seconds of combat time. (20
seconds... that's time for 3 full casts of Starfire.)
Or to summarize:
Bullshit.
The Cynic
>And, honestly, a 50/50 chance in pvp against an equal level for ANY
>class sounds like a properly balanced class to me.
My point exactly.
With pumice, the chances are 50/50.
Without pumice, the chances are 99/1 in favor of the caster.
Glad you agree with me.
Billy Shields
: Dark Tyger wrote in message <397be416....@news.mindspring.com>...
:>It's not your game. You didn't create it. You don't own the rights to
:>it. You can express what you want in the game, but, in the end, the
:>only ones actually "entitled" to anything are Verant. You're not even
:>"entitled" to PLAY the game. You're granted the privilege. That's all
:>you have.
: Verant also isn't "entitled" to my money. Once more people realize the
: impact of the pumice nerf, I think PvP will go down the tubes. They'll have
You mean it hasn't gone down the tubes already? Honestly, I don't
know why the PvPers bother. EQ isn't, never has been and never
will be a PvP game. It was tacked on as an afterthought. And
rightly so since the vast majority of players aren't the least
bit interested in PvP.
Amusingly enough I've seen this pattern on muds time and time
again yet the hardcore PvP don't seem to (ever) get it.
Alasdair Allan
> Dark Tyger wrote in message <397c025f....@news.mindspring.com>...
> >Boo-hoo. DoTs are actually (*GASP!*) effective against warriors in PvP
> >now... The new Pumice still cancels magic. It's just (perish the
> >thought) imperfect.
>
> level caster in PvP. And that's assuming the warrior has good resist gear
> and a decent ability to track a "quake-stepping" opponet.
Utter bullshit.
A warrior at 50 has around 1800 to 2000 base HPs. Spells do 66% of list
damage *at most*. Normally they do *much*, *much* less. In PvP, Ice Comet
will often do less than 100 damage against *unbuffed* resists.
What Pumice did was give a skill away free. It negated *all* buff based
classes advantages, making Clerics and the like redundat. Insta-cast Pumice
allowed players to do upwards of 1000 damage instantly by stripping off HP
buffs.
Pumice was *better* than the spell. Now it is not. Live with it, its
*well* past time Verant fixed this exploit to PvP combat.
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
The Cynic
>You mean it hasn't gone down the tubes already? Honestly, I don't
>know why the PvPers bother. EQ isn't, never has been and never
>will be a PvP game. It was tacked on as an afterthought. And
>rightly so since the vast majority of players aren't the least
>bit interested in PvP.
Most of the people who gain interest in PvP are the people you would lose if
PvP wasn't an option -- long term players.
I would have quit EQ 10 months ago except I decided PvP might be fun to try
first. I'm still playing. I'd like to keep playing until The Next Big Game
comes along -- probably Shadowbane which appears to have put a lot more
thought into the PvP section of their design.
And EQ PvP is not all that bad. I play a warrior, and I run into solo PvP
encounters quite frequently. I stand a decent chance in 1 on 1 battle
versus a same level character of any other class. Assuming I have plenty of
Egg Shaped Pumice, of course. The importance of that item in PvP cannot be
overstressed. Removing it is a HUGE change to high level encounters.
Fighting computer controlled monsters in dungeons gets boring. At level 50,
it's still basically the same as it was at level 25, except you're in a
different place. Fighting players is always new and interesting though.
Even with all the bugs and shortcomings of EQ as a PvP game engine, it's
still plenty ammusing.
And up til now, it was reasonably fair.
When it stops being fair, it stops being fun. And Shadowbane isn't out yet.
Verant made the choice to setup several PvP servers, which are probably
servicing a minimum of 10,000 customers total, or $100,000 per month.
(That's $1.2 million gross per year, for those keeping up.)
You'd think that would warrent a little more consideration on their part
than to just up and make a stealth nerf without noticing that it's really
fucking up the already shakey balance of the game.
The Cynic
>A warrior at 50 has around 1800 to 2000 base HPs.
I was level 53 before I passed 2000 base hit points, and that's as a troll
warrior. (Assuming by "base HPs" you mean naked HPs.)
Anyway yes, warriors have a lot of hit points.
Rogues and monks do not.
>Spells do 66% of list damage *at most*.
>Normally they do *much*, *much* less. In PvP, Ice Comet
>will often do less than 100 damage against *unbuffed* resists.
If by "often" you mean "roughly 1 cast out of 10" then yes, I suppose you're
right.
Against a same level caster, Ice Comet will kick your ass unless you have a
really high cold resist. Against red cons it's obviously weaker, against
blue cons it's good as gold. Draught of Fire is worse. Lure of Frost is
far worse. Winged Death is pretty well true to the name unless you dispell
it.
If the point you're trying to edge towards is that casters don't have enough
mana to kill same level warriors, then you're completely wrong. A level 50
wizard casting Ice Comet will be able to cast it at LEAST 5 times for a
total potential of 3300 PvP damage. A level 50 troll warrior in PvP gear
will have about 1900 hit points. Unless you get a 50% resist rate (not
bloody likely) or waste mana casting silly spells, your kill is bagged. But
that's just against warriors. Monks and rogues are roadkill.
But ice comet is a bad example. Since Kunark, Ice Comet is made obsolete in
2 levels by Draught of Fire, and not long thereafter, Lure of Frost is
really nice in PvP because that I've seen it always does full damage,
regardless of resists.
And that's just wizards. Necros and druids, if allowed to use their
super-efficient DoT spells, can kill a same level warrior with plenty of
mana to spare.
>What Pumice did was give a skill away free. It negated *all* buff based
>classes advantages, making Clerics and the like redundat. Insta-cast
Pumice
>allowed players to do upwards of 1000 damage instantly by stripping off HP
>buffs.
What pumice did is create a semblance of balance in the game. I realize
you're one of those people who thinks "balance" means "my class wins every
fight", but for the sensible people of the world, pumice was what kept the
game in check. It leveled the playing field. I'm gonna laugh in your face
if you think this is aiding a class like clerics -- true, they get to keep
all their buffs, but they are a class who is 100% reliant on the magic
resistance of their opponet. If their enemy is under the influence of a
magic resist buff, then the cleric is lame. With pumice, the cleric can
remove the enemy MR and stand a chance at landing a spell. With the change
in the pumice, clerics are possibly even more fucked than warriors! Their
only hope will be to stand there and outheal all the damage being caused by
spells like Splurt and Winged Death, because there's no way they're going to
land a nuke on a caster with 120+ MR, thanks to all those buffs, and they're
going to have a lot of fun standing there casting a 4.5 second nullify spell
while their opponet nukes them.
>Pumice was *better* than the spell. Now it is not. Live with it, its
>*well* past time Verant fixed this exploit to PvP combat.
rofl, "exploit". You obviously have no concept of the meaning of that word.
You just remember this thread in a couple months, when you get past level 20
and want to start going to the planes, and the only tanks you can find are
incompetent caster twinks who had to powerlevel a tank specifically for the
planes because no dedicated tanks could be found! Mark my words.
Edam
> >
>
> Which was my line of thinking. Despite what Adar thinks, I actually
> DID read the post. Logicly, channelling skill should be irrelevant to
> an item spell...
>
> Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
If you did read the post why did you state that 50/50 was perfectly fair,
when infact that was the percentage chance he mentioned with the old pumice
stone.
Go read the post again, and then comment again.
Edam
Alasdair Allan
> Alasdair Allan wrote in message <01bff54b$7d5f1980$290201c0@dell40>...
> >A warrior at 50 has around 1800 to 2000 base HPs.
>
> I was level 53 before I passed 2000 base hit points, and that's as a troll
> warrior. (Assuming by "base HPs" you mean naked HPs.)
>
> Anyway yes, warriors have a lot of hit points.
More than enough to make them pretty immune from getting ganked. Similar
level Warriors have to many HPs to be worn down by almost all casters,
excepting Shamans and Necros and even then it is damn close.
> Rogues and monks do not.
And now they won't lose half of them when they get pumiced instantly...
> >Spells do 66% of list damage *at most*.
> >Normally they do *much*, *much* less. In PvP, Ice Comet
> >will often do less than 100 damage against *unbuffed* resists.
>
> If by "often" you mean "roughly 1 cast out of 10" then yes, I suppose
you're
> right.
No, I mean most of the time. If Ice Comet does the full 800 damage to me, I
got *very* unlucky. In my experience, Ice Comet does around 250 to 300
damage against an even /con with 35 Cold Resist per cast. A level 50 Wizard
gets 5 casts before OOM.
> Against a same level caster, Ice Comet will kick your ass unless you have
a
> really high cold resist. Against red cons it's obviously weaker, against
> blue cons it's good as gold.
All the most reason to not want those HP buffs stripped away by the Wizard
before he even opens with damage.
> Draught of Fire is worse. Lure of Frost is
> far worse.
Tell me, how does a Pumice Stone prevent the damage from Lure or Draught
spells? All it does is let the Wizard lower your HPs without using mana
before they even need to cast.
> Winged Death is pretty well true to the name unless you dispell
> it.
Stupidly low resistance check on that spell. Even then, its still a very
slow 800 damage or so.
You could never dispell Envenomed Bolt or Plague and they do as much damage
(much faster for E-Bolts). What's the change? Now the Druid has a
competitive spell that, if they *fluke* it and land the spell three times
over 4 and a half minutes, might be enough to kill a Warrior.
> If the point you're trying to edge towards is that casters don't have
enough
> mana to kill same level warriors, then you're completely wrong. A level
50
> wizard casting Ice Comet will be able to cast it at LEAST 5 times for a
> total potential of 3300 PvP damage.
And effectively less than 1000. Everyone gets lucky some times but Wizards
generally won't kill anyone. That's why they don't work at PvP. That's why
a Wizard is a living joke at all levels.
> A level 50 troll warrior in PvP gear
> will have about 1900 hit points. Unless you get a 50% resist rate (not
> bloody likely)
Huh! Not only likely, it's almost *guaranteed*. A 50 Wizard cannot kill a
50 Warrior unless they get lucky. If the resistances are boosted they
simply will not have a chance.
> or waste mana casting silly spells, your kill is bagged. But
> that's just against warriors. Monks and rogues are roadkill.
Monks and Rogues get it harder. All the more reason you don't want to have
their HP buffs dispelled by the Wizard before he starts casting. Umm, your
argument was *against* the nerf no? Wizards dispell Monk and Rogue HPs
buffs meaning they suddenly have enough mana to win. How is this not an
*anti* Wizard nerf?
> But ice comet is a bad example. Since Kunark, Ice Comet is made obsolete
in
> 2 levels by Draught of Fire, and not long thereafter, Lure of Frost is
> really nice in PvP because that I've seen it always does full damage,
> regardless of resists.
Lure is un-resistable and hasn't been thought through in PvP. Ask Verant
about a different PvP resistance table for the spell. How does not being
able to Pumice *help* the Rogue or Monk?
> And that's just wizards. Necros and druids, if allowed to use their
> super-efficient DoT spells, can kill a same level warrior with plenty of
> mana to spare.
The most efficient PvP Necro spells is Poison based. It can't be Pumiced.
Driud DoTs suck. Do you *really* think a Druid is gonna be able to
interrupt you within a 4.5 second cast time anyway? To interrupt your
pumicing off the DoT they need to either land a Wind spell (never against a
Player even unbuffed) or somehow land a hit with that Paw of Oppola (for
information you can't hit with a Paw equipped or perhaps their 100 cap skill
in Hand to Hand against your 900AC.
> >Pumice was *better* than the spell. Now it is not. Live with it, its
> >*well* past time Verant fixed this exploit to PvP combat.
>
> rofl, "exploit". You obviously have no concept of the meaning of that
word.
An exploit is using a programmed or contextual event to the advantage of the
player in a way not intended by the programmers.
Insta-killing half a players HPs (i.e. doing 50% of the needed damage to
them) in PvP through use of a no-cast time reagent was clearly *not*
intended, that makes it an exploit.
> You just remember this thread in a couple months, when you get past level
20
> and want to start going to the planes, and the only tanks you can find are
> incompetent caster twinks who had to powerlevel a tank specifically for
the
> planes because no dedicated tanks could be found! Mark my words.
I wouldn't play PvP, the game isn't balanced for it. I enjoy duelling and
the inadequacies of the game can be made up for by its costless nature. The
Pumice Nerf fixes a lot of the imbalances in PvP, more than the number it
creates. It also means classes who get a Cancel/Nullify/Annul Magic spells
might actually *USE THE SPELL INSTEAD OF THE STONE*.
More classes rely on buffs than rely on Magic Based DoTs (your *only* reason
for keeping the old Pumice), therefore the nerf *aids* more classes than it
hurts. That's a good change in my book.
Lyion
Are you REALLY arguing PvP combat with someone who plays FULL
time on a PvP server? Didn't know you had 50+ levels playing
PvP...
The Pumice nerf screws us on blue servers, as well. It is a
very useful item for a VARIETY of reasons. I'm just curious why
they nerf it now, but I guess someone who plays the game saw it
and was upset about something. It really is a lame nerf
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Alasdair Allan
> Alasdair,
> Are you REALLY arguing PvP combat with someone who plays FULL
> time on a PvP server? Didn't know you had 50+ levels playing
> PvP...
Sorry, the opinion of players who duel is *more* valid than players on the
minority server. A tiny fraction of the EQ population play on a Zek, most
PvP combat in Everquest is duelling on Blue servers. she views of Zek
players are less important than those of players on Blue servers.
In any case, I've got my Zek toon, in stasis as he has been since two weeks
after the server opened, level 22 or so, waiting for the day Verant balance
PvP on the Zeks. Guess what, that day got closer with the Pumice stone
nerf.
> The Pumice nerf screws us on blue servers, as well. It is a
> very useful item for a VARIETY of reasons. I'm just curious why
> they nerf it now, but I guess someone who plays the game saw it
> and was upset about something. It really is a lame nerf
No, the Pumice nerf screws those who used it as a cheap replacement for the
classes that can use the spell. Now you need the spell, as it should be.
It also means duelling doesn't completely ignore buffs, offering a fuller
experience than previousl (and one that helps Clerics hugely).
Most players go overboard on Annulling Magic anyway. The vast majority of
damage shields on mobs are MacGuffins designed to force either a delay in
casting Turgur or the need to repeat casting after the Annul, just ignore
'em.
Dark Tyger
>If you did read the post why did you state that 50/50 was perfectly fair,
>when infact that was the percentage chance he mentioned with the old pumice
>stone.
Because 50/50 is perfectly fair, and I said nothing about the pumice
in that statement. He said that warriors had a 50/50 chance before as
if that was a problem...
--
Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
Sergey Dashevskiy
static.demon.co.uk says...
> > >Spells do 66% of list damage *at most*.
> > >Normally they do *much*, *much* less. In PvP, Ice Comet
> > >will often do less than 100 damage against *unbuffed* resists.
> >
> > If by "often" you mean "roughly 1 cast out of 10" then yes, I suppose
> you're
> > right.
>
> No, I mean most of the time. If Ice Comet does the full 800 damage to me, I
> got *very* unlucky. In my experience, Ice Comet does around 250 to 300
> damage against an even /con with 35 Cold Resist per cast. A level 50 Wizard
> gets 5 casts before OOM.
To add to this: my situation is not very standard (me being a bard and
all), but even after wizards' resistances were lowered, a level 49
wizard's (red to me) Ice Comet does about 30-100 damage to me, or gets
fully resisted. I should also mention that he was not overly happy about
it
But that was only if I would actually let him cast (bards get a song
similar to bash, and it's about not resisted).
--
Vedun, 30th tank mage
Xirin, 31st retired druid
Xirinia Gusl'ar, 46th tanking bard of Povar, Nightmare's Asylum
Run fast, die often, leave a well dressed corpse.
Dark Tyger
<pecos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Most of the people who gain interest in PvP are the people you would lose if
>PvP wasn't an option -- long term players.
Funny, most of the long-term players I know have never and don't ever
intend to participate in pvp...
Edam
Dark Tyger <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:397f5614....@news.mindspring.com...
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:39:14 +0100, "Edam" <e...@ed.com> wrote:
>
> >If you did read the post why did you state that 50/50 was perfectly fair,
> >when infact that was the percentage chance he mentioned with the old
pumice
> >stone.
>
> Because 50/50 is perfectly fair, and I said nothing about the pumice
> in that statement. He said that warriors had a 50/50 chance before as
> if that was a problem...
>
> Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
He said nothing of the sort, you are just trying to cover yourself, he said
at best it was 50/50.
Although personally I thought the addition of pumice stones was to big an
advantage for the warrior, it gave a better than 50/50 ratio. If you took
it back to pre nerf days when the pets hit for max damage and so did the
spells, then the pumice stones may be fairer.
Edam
Adar
"Alasdair Allan" <posth...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:01bff577$16b160e0$290201c0@dell40...
> Lyion <rscottN...@senco.com.invalid> wrote
> > Alasdair,
> > Are you REALLY arguing PvP combat with someone who plays FULL
> > time on a PvP server? Didn't know you had 50+ levels playing
> > PvP...
>
> Sorry, the opinion of players who duel is *more* valid than players on the
> minority server. A tiny fraction of the EQ population play on a Zek, most
> PvP combat in Everquest is duelling on Blue servers. she views of Zek
> players are less important than those of players on Blue servers.
>
> In any case, I've got my Zek toon, in stasis as he has been since two
weeks
> after the server opened, level 22 or so, waiting for the day Verant
balance
> PvP on the Zeks. Guess what, that day got closer with the Pumice stone
> nerf.
>
Dueling isn't the same as PvP.
The major problem of melees on red servers isn't 'how to kill casters'; they
couldn't do it before, thanks mostly to 'You cannot see your target', and
they can't do it now. Besides, there's no point; on RZ, the server where
this hurts the most, all the casters are naked anyway.
The major problem of melees is how to GET AWAY FROM casters they don't want
to be fighting- especially at druid rings, at 2 bubs of health or less, etc.
Nerfing pumice means that yes, melees now have several hundred more hit
points- but that doesn't matter. As of now, if you're snared, you *stay*
snared for 11 minutes, thanks to Ensnare, a spell that has a low cast time,
very low resist rate, and trivially cheap to recast. Med-to-low blue conning
(to the naked druid) warriors with good MR may get lucky and resist a few of
these, but med-to-low blue conning rogues/monks and most hybrids have no
chance...and once you're snared in PvP, you're dead. If the original dr00id
doesn't get you, an opportunist waiting on the other side of the zone line
will.
On TZ and VZ, this doesn't hurt too badly; there's no sting to death, and
all that happens at level 40+ is 50 lost plat (and another 50 for the res to
save the run back.) On RZ, though, the melees, especially the ones without
planar gear, may as well quit and wait for the unnerf; what's the point of
wearing anything when one 5 mana spell guarantees your death?
Nuuk Lea'R (E'ci)
Dan Day
>
>>Start another character ?
>>Try something new ?
>
>then what would they whine about?
Someday, I pray that Verant finds a way to make Dark Tyger's
character almost impossible to play effectively, so that I can
suggest to him that it's "way too easy" to abandon all his work
on his current character and start all over again from scratch
in order to "find a character" that it's still possible to
"play effectively" so he'll stop "whining".
DT, I'm thinking of a word that begins with "A". See if
you can guess it.
--
"How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the
plain Meaning of Words!"
--Samuel Adams (1722-1803), letter to John Pitts, January 21, 1776
Dark Tyger
>He said nothing of the sort, you are just trying to cover yourself, he said
>at best it was 50/50.
Read again. I said he had said it ***AS IF*** it were a problem. I
didn't say he SAID it was a problem. "50/50 at best" sounds like a
complaint about even the 50/50 odds.
Now, quit digging so hard to discredit me and find a new hobby.
--
Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
Dark Tyger
>Someday, I pray that Verant finds a way to make Dark Tyger's
>character almost impossible to play effectively, so that I can
>suggest to him that it's "way too easy" to abandon all his work
>on his current character and start all over again from scratch
>in order to "find a character" that it's still possible to
>"play effectively" so he'll stop "whining".
And how are you sure I wouldn't change characters in this case? You
assume too much...
Dark Tyger
>DT, I'm thinking of a word that begins with "A". See if
>you can guess it.
By the way... Please, tell me where I'm an "apologist" here. Show me
where I've said ANYTHING defending the choice of casting times? You're
digging.
Peach Cobbler
dark...@mindspring.com (Dark Tyger) wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:55:30 GMT, d...@firstnethou.com (Dan Day) wrote:
>
> >DT, I'm thinking of a word that begins with "A". See if
> >you can guess it.
>
> By the way... Please, tell me where I'm an "apologist" here. Show me
> where I've said ANYTHING defending the choice of casting times? You're
> digging.
you're telling the guy that instead of complaining about a nerf he
should ditch his level 51 for a naked newbie druid, and that doesn't
make you an apologist?
Damn, I can only imagine what a real VAK would be saying about this
thread.
Sachertorte, 34 monk bertox.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peach Cobbler
"Alasdair Allan" <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Lyion <rscottN...@senco.com.invalid> wrote
> > Alasdair,
> > Are you REALLY arguing PvP combat with someone who plays FULL
> > time on a PvP server? Didn't know you had 50+ levels playing
> > PvP...
>
> Sorry, the opinion of players who duel is *more* valid than players
on the
> minority server. A tiny fraction of the EQ population play on a Zek,
most
> PvP combat in Everquest is duelling on Blue servers. she views of Zek
> players are less important than those of players on Blue servers.
Meow.
There are about 5 or 10 deuls a night on a PvE server. Most of which
are people goofing around (I sometime duel my warrior buds when they
get new gear, just to see how good it is), creating logs against a
friend/guildmates char, or just leaving gear to pickup later on. Oh,
and there are a few actually deulists running around as well. Say that
each of these catagories is about equal, then that leaves a couple
deuls per evening per PvE servers. With 30 blue servers your looking at
about 60-100 PvP encounters.
Sorry, the majority of PvP action takes place on the 3 PvP servers.
Just own up: Verant doesn't care about PvP and balances for PvE.
Everynow and then they'll slap on a bandaid. Considering that Verant
has said straight up that EQ is about PvE and that the PvP servers were
created as an ongoing experiment, I don't see anything wrong with that
and don't feel too bitter about quitting my TZ enchanter after the
enchanter nerfs.
But damn, at least you can open your eyes to the situation.
> In any case, I've got my Zek toon, in stasis as he has been since two
weeks
> after the server opened, level 22 or so, waiting for the day Verant
balance
> PvP on the Zeks. Guess what, that day got closer with the Pumice
stone
> nerf.
wow? 22? Show cynic how PvP balance works!
Sachertorte, 34 monk bertox. (who doesn't know much about high level
PvE balance, but doesn't pretend to understand).
James W.
dark...@mindspring.com (Dark Tyger) wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:01:08 GMT, "The Cynic"
> <pecos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Most of the people who gain interest in PvP are the people you would
lose if
> >PvP wasn't an option -- long term players.
>
> Funny, most of the long-term players I know have never and don't ever
> intend to participate in pvp...
And this somehow invalidates those who are? Do you play PVP? If not, you
are not exactly getting a fair exposure to both sides... Very much like
living on the posh side of the tracks and claiming poverty dosen't
exist. Go to the other side of the tracks before drawing a conclusion.
Take a tank into the level range he speaks of, and go pick a fight withn
a druid that cons white. Rinse and repeat often. If you come near 50/50
without the item in wuestion, you have a leg to stand on.
>
> --
> Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
> =^..^=
> "If I go crazy then will you still call me Superman?
> If I'm alive and well, will you be there to hold in my hand?"
> -Three Doors Down
>
> A place between time and space, everywhere and nowhere
> http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/psychic/876/den.html
> Friendly staff, beautiful gaming/chat environment. Check it out!
>
--
"And blessed is he who takes no offense at me."
-Mattew 11.6
Geekcode: GAT d-(d++) -p+ c++++ l+ u--- e* m- s
n- h++ f+ !g w++ t+(t+++ #Q'plah!) r++(r+*) x+(**)
guess away
>> where I've said ANYTHING defending the choice of casting times? You're
>> digging.
>
>you're telling the guy that instead of complaining about a nerf he
>should ditch his level 51 for a naked newbie druid, and that doesn't
>make you an apologist?
Not really. Folks do have choices, you know. So they nerfed the
pumices again, so what? The only thing those were good for on the real
servers was pulling, anyhow. If they were so overpowering as to be 'a
necessity' on PvP servers, then they needed to be nerfed anyhow.
>Damn, I can only imagine what a real VAK would be saying about this
>thread.
The only folks who bother labelling folks with things like VAK are the
zealots of the 'other side' such as it were. Go figure.
Sang K. Choe
<ad...@spamaway.mindspring.com> wrote:
>Pure melees have a channeling of ZERO. Zero channeling means that ANY hit or
>ANY motion will *automatically* interrupt the spell with no chance of
>success. The new stones are useless because a hit from a druid's obsidian
>scimitar or what have you for 1 point of damage within the 4.5 seconds is a
>guaranteed interrupt.
Except the odds of a druid using an obsidian scimmy, a 2.7 delay
weapon actually *hitting* a warrior with 900+ AC within the 4.5 is
slim to none. Shit, at level 56 with maxed offense (nice that damage
shields raise offense) and maxxed 1HS (175), I can barely connect 10%
of the time against a level 45 mob let alone an even con.
I would have a better chance of interrupting the tank by using my wind
spells--of course, those are fairly easy to resist and more
imporntantly we get two wind spells which takes 24 seconds to recycle.
Yuck!
>This will likely be reversed for PvP, or another kludgy work around
>subsistuted at some point- six months from now.
I doubt it.
Prior to the nerf, a caster against a prepared warrior was seriously
at a disadvantage. The warrior merely had to outlast the caster's
mana pool. And it's trivial if I burn 200 mana to cast a dot which
can be wiped with one right click.
That made dots, snares, darkness, etc... completely useless--in
effect, removing a huge set of weapons from the caster's arsenal.
At least now the weapons are useful again. A warrior PvPing aginst a
druid? I'd still put money on the warrior. I tried to snare/root
myself (even con) when I had about 70+ magic resistence--out of 20
attempts at root, I couldn't get a single one to stick for more than a
second or two even if I could get it to stick (it would cancel sow,
but the root would break almost immediately as well). Snare I could
get to stick, but would take about 10 attempts to succeed.
And forget about Sunbeam...that's totally useless against an even con
with more than 70 MR--I must have sunbeamed myself a good 50 times
standing there in Misty...couldn't get a single one to stick.
-- Sang.
Sang K. Choe
<ad...@spamaway.mindspring.com> wrote:
>Nerfing pumice means that yes, melees now have several hundred more hit
>points- but that doesn't matter. As of now, if you're snared, you *stay*
>snared for 11 minutes, thanks to Ensnare, a spell that has a low cast time,
>very low resist rate, and trivially cheap to recast.
Very low resist rate? Against an even con with 60+ MR? No, it's very
high resist rate. Infact, against an even con with 60+, it's maybe a
10% to 15% stick (tried this on myself repeatedly). And even if I
managed to snare a tank, I can't keep him from cancelling that using
the nerfed pumice stone since I cannot interrupt him (no my winds
aren't going to work especially since they have a 24 second recycle
and are unbelievably resisted and nor am I gonna be able to actually
hit him with any weapons not against a warrior/monk with 900+ AC).
>Med-to-low blue conning
>(to the naked druid) warriors with good MR may get lucky and resist a few of
>these, but med-to-low blue conning rogues/monks and most hybrids have no
>chance...and once you're snared in PvP, you're dead.
Mid to low blue would imply the druid in question conned red. I would
expect a player to have a great amount of difficulty beating (or even
surviving against) a red con player.
On the other hand, against an even con druid, you should have no
problems shrugging off his snares or pumicing them away even with the
post-nerfed stones. Assuming you keep your MR above 60 or so.
The pumice stone nerf actually has more impact on non-PvP situations
since NPC casters can hit like a mack truck and interrupt folks.
-- Sang.
Dan Day
>
>>DT, I'm thinking of a word that begins with "A". See if
>>you can guess it.
>
>where I've said ANYTHING defending the choice of casting times?
Wrong "A" word. Try again.
Seven letters. Ends with an "E".
> You're digging.
Only in that digging would produce the last four letters of this word.
Sang K. Choe
<posth...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Most players go overboard on Annulling Magic anyway. The vast majority of
>damage shields on mobs are MacGuffins designed to force either a delay in
>casting Turgur or the need to repeat casting after the Annul, just ignore
>'em.
Can't.
So-and-so was burned messages, when spammed with multiple hasted
tanks/melees on the mob can potentially cause players to LD--having a
healer/chanter LD at the wrong time would be pretty damn annoying.
Against wizard mobs, the O'Keil's Radiation doesn't do enough damage
to worry about, but it's not the damage it's the spam and possible
LDs.
-- Sang.
The Cynic
>More than enough to make them pretty immune from getting ganked. Similar
>level Warriors have to many HPs to be worn down by almost all casters,
>excepting Shamans and Necros and even then it is damn close.
It certainly doesn't make us "immune" to getting ganked. My ability to ward
off a caster is dependant on my ability to keep hitting him.
A snare, bonds of force or similar spell means I have to stop hitting him at
least long enough to dispell the effect. While I'm doing that, I'm
obviously not able to interrupt any more spells, which means the caster is
going to nuke me.
It's a miracle when I can run an even con or higher wizard out of mana, and
that's with my standard 95 MR, 94 CR, 94 HR PvP suit.
Really, though, it's the rogues and monks who are fucked. I guess I'll
speak for them cause hardly any of them play PvP as it is, and what few HAVE
been playing are quitting now. As a level 53 warrior, I get a free +26
magic resistance and I have over 2000 hp naked. A level 53 rogue has, I
believe, on the order of 1100 hit points and no big MR bonus. It's easier
to snare them, it's easier to nuke them. Rogues and monks versus any caster
are dead meat.
With Egg Shaped Pumice at least they have a chance to escape. With the new
pumice, they have no chance.
And you can make the claim that rogues and monks can benefit by not having
their buffs pumiced, I feel obligated to point out that they can't cast
buffs. I'd say 95% of my PvP encounters have happened when I had little or
no buffs on. You log in, you run to Grobb to resupply, you start heading
towards Sol B to meet your party, you get attacked in East Commons.... by
that time whatever buffs you logged out with are gone anyway. Now you have
a rogue with 1100 HP and no buffs facing down a magician with more hit
points and a Lava Shield! lol And there's nothing the rogue can do about
it except run.
(Prior to the nerf, rogue vs magician was actually a balanced encounter --
the rogue could pumice the lava shield, instill doubt to fear the pet and
melee the magician. Meanwhile the magician is trying to chain-cast Char, or
get in a Lava Bolt while the rogue is re-fearing the pet. Odds were about
50/50, depending on the rogue's ability to get in backstabs. Post-nerf,
there is simply no way the magician can lose.)
>Tell me, how does a Pumice Stone prevent the damage from Lure or Draught
>spells? All it does is let the Wizard lower your HPs without using mana
>before they even need to cast.
We were dicussing the ability of a wizard to kill a warrior, and I was
mentioning that Ice Comet is not a good spell to bring up. Wizards only use
IC for 2 levels, then it's Draught of Fire, which is more efficient. At any
rate, Draught of Fire is mostly what hits me these days.
>Stupidly low resistance check on that spell. Even then, its still a very
>slow 800 damage or so.
Splurt is the same way. The level 53 necro in my guild says he's only had
it resisted in PvP once. Also, "very slow" compared to what? Compared to
the damage output of my weapons? I don't think so. Do the druid 2-step:
1) Land DOT
2) Run in circles
Without pumice, it'll work every time. If your melee opponet stops to
dispell, that's your signal to stop and get in a free nuke. He can't bash
you when he's trying to dispell your DOT.
>You could never dispell Envenomed Bolt or Plague and they do as much damage
>(much faster for E-Bolts). What's the change? Now the Druid has a
>competitive spell that, if they *fluke* it and land the spell three times
>over 4 and a half minutes, might be enough to kill a Warrior.
Why would that be a "fluke"? It is, for all practical purposes,
unresistable. If the warrior does anything but make good on an escape
attempt, you can run in circles, exploit the crappy game engine which makes
it nearly impossible to hit a moving target as a meleer and cast it as many
times as you like.
EBolt and plague can't be pumiced but are easily resisted. That's the
difference for them. Splurt is almost impossible to resist but easily
pumiced.
Now we're making spells impossible to resist AND hard to pumice. That's
dumb.
>> wizard casting Ice Comet will be able to cast it at LEAST 5 times for a
>> total potential of 3300 PvP damage.
>
>And effectively less than 1000. Everyone gets lucky some times but Wizards
>generally won't kill anyone. That's why they don't work at PvP. That's
why
>a Wizard is a living joke at all levels.
That's a gross exaggeration. My character is a level 53 warrior, but I have
swapped with my guildmate's level 51 wizard before. In all the PvP
encounters I had using his wizard, I never had trouble killing another
caster due to lack of mana. Rarely did I need more than 2 bubbles of mana.
1 IC (as an opening move if you have the element of surprise) + 2 Draughts
of Fire kill pretty much any caster, unless they're 4+ levels higher than
me. (1 IC + 1 Draught of Fire is sufficient versus most blue cons.)
Doing 2000 damage in PvP with a wizard is easy.
Probably the most notorius player on my server is a level 54 wizard, known
for hanging out near the Neriak bank and ganking people. You can't tell me
he's getting a high success rate by only being able to do "effectively less
than 1000" damage with a full bar of mana. You're trying to tell me a level
51 wizard is lucky to have enough mana to kill a level 51 magician, and
that's just plain laughable.
>Monks and Rogues get it harder. All the more reason you don't want to have
>their HP buffs dispelled by the Wizard before he starts casting. Umm, your
>argument was *against* the nerf no? Wizards dispell Monk and Rogue HPs
>buffs meaning they suddenly have enough mana to win. How is this not an
>*anti* Wizard nerf?
I'm confused. You're in favor of the nerf, but here you seem to be saying
that a wizard is ineffective in PvP unless they first pumice their opponet?
So... with the new pumice nerf... you say that wizards are less effective in
PvP?
I agree completely. As I have said several times, the ONLY winners are
necros and druids. Wizards lose. Warriors lose more. Rogues and monks get
it up the rear with no lubrication. Sounds to me like you are coming around
to support me in the claim that the new nerf unbalances PvP.
At any rate, I restate my previous point, which is that most PvP encounters
between casters and meleers occur when the meleers have no buffs. I can't
count the number of times a caster has unloaded a pumice on me to start a
fight and the only buff I had was JBoots. They can keep their buffs up full
time, meleers rely on others and thus, when travelling from location to
location in the open, are frequently unbuffed.
If you're trying to insinuate that meleers should not travel alone in a PvP
world unless they expect to die, then the pumice nerf is certainly a good
step towards that direction, but I think it's a bad move.
The nerf reduces my effectiveness by making it easier for an opponet to
outrun me (through any number of means), it reduces wizard effectiveness by
making it too hard to remove the enemy's HP buffs and reduces the
effectiveness of shaman and clerics by making it too hard to remove the
enemy's resistance buffs. One more time I say it mostly helps druids and
necros, who have unresistable DOT's.
>Lure is un-resistable and hasn't been thought through in PvP. Ask Verant
>about a different PvP resistance table for the spell. How does not being
>able to Pumice *help* the Rogue or Monk?
Rogue vs Wizard, being able to pumice helps the rogue dispell the wizard's
diamondskin as well as their Arch-Shielding. It also lets them rid
themselves of Bonds of Force, should that spell be cast on them.
NOT being able to pumice will not help the rogue at all, since they likely
had no buffs on which needed pumicing anyway.
>The most efficient PvP Necro spells is Poison based. It can't be Pumiced.
>Driud DoTs suck. Do you *really* think a Druid is gonna be able to
>interrupt you within a 4.5 second cast time anyway?
That was just an example, illustrating how easy it is to interrupt a meleer
trying to cast a spell. Items use the same caster-code as normal spells,
which means channeling checks, and meleers have a channeling skill of 0.
Remember the good old days when a fire beetle could hit you for 1 damage and
interrupt your spell?
I'm pretty sure the most efficient necro spell now is Splurt, which is magic
based. Presumedly it goes against magic resistance, although even a 120 MR
seems to be sufficient to resist only about 1 cast in 20.
The real thing for a druid to do rather than interrupt my pumice is to start
casting Starfire (or their higher level nukes). So if you stop running so
you can dispell a DOT so you can avoid taking 800 damage, you'll get hit
with a nuke and take a good 500 damage instead. Bad deal. As a wizard,
this ought to worry you considerably more -- druid casts a DOT and runs.
Your choices? Stand there for 4.5 seconds and try to dispell it, or chase
the druid for some damage of your own. And when you stop to nullify magic,
the druid stops to blast off half your hit points.
If you're a wizard arguing in favor of a pumice nerf, you're shooting
yourself in the foot in so many ways.
>More classes rely on buffs than rely on Magic Based DoTs (your *only*
reason
>for keeping the old Pumice), therefore the nerf *aids* more classes than it
>hurts. That's a good change in my book.
The amount of aid you get from buffs is not close to equalling the amount of
damage you will get by not being able to remove DOT's.
And by your own claim, this is only going to hurt wizards. The fact that
they get to keep their buffs is not going to stop them from getting their
asses kicked by a necro (and I should point out that the necro life-sucking
spell ignores diamondskin while your Ice Comet does not -- he's getting use
of his buffs, you're not).
Wizards, like meleers, NEEDED pumice to help level the playing field.
Dark Tyger
<peach_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>you're telling the guy that instead of complaining about a nerf he
>should ditch his level 51 for a naked newbie druid, and that doesn't
>make you an apologist?
No...I'm telling him he should stop whining. If he CAN'T handle
things, then change. If he doesn't want to change, learn new
tactics...or, here's a cool concept, actually TRY OUT using the
pumice. How often do casters at high levels engange in melee...? How
often would they hit a properly equipped high level melee char with
maxed ( for his level ) defence if they did? It's rough, but it's not
NEAR as rough as he's making it out.
I'm not "apologizing" for the change. What I am saying is "deal with
it". Cause, until Verant changes their mind on the issue, pissing and
moaning HERE does ZERO good. All it accomplishes is arguments and
flamewars.
Hmm, now every time I voice an opinion on a matter, even if I refrain
from saying whether I think Verant was right or wrong, I'm called an
"apologist".
How predictable.
Dark Tyger
>Wrong "A" word. Try again.
>
>Seven letters. Ends with an "E".
Hmm, okay, so you've degraded to childish namecalling involving
implied obsceneties.
Predictable.
The Cynic
>I'm not "apologizing" for the change. What I am saying is "deal with
>it". Cause, until Verant changes their mind on the issue, pissing and
>moaning HERE does ZERO good. All it accomplishes is arguments and
>flamewars.
And how, pray tell, is Verant going to change their mind if people don't
argue about it?
If you read my original message in this thread, it has a link to a message
on their main gameplay forum, which is read by Abashi at least. Large # of
posts = maybe someone at Verant takes notice and read the post.
It's also vaguely possible that they read this newsgroup. I remember when
the game first came out, Brad McQuaid would respond in newsgroups.
Apparently the difference between you and me is if someone was hitting us in
the head with a stick, I'd bitch them out about it, whereas you'd just sit
there and continue to get hit in the hopes that they will change their mind
before you get knocked out. Not, IMO, the most clever approach to fixing
problems.
Edam
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:42:07 +0100, "Edam" <e...@ed.com> wrote:
>
> >He said nothing of the sort, you are just trying to cover yourself, he
said
> >at best it was 50/50.
>
> Read again. I said he had said it ***AS IF*** it were a problem. I
> didn't say he SAID it was a problem. "50/50 at best" sounds like a
> complaint about even the 50/50 odds.
>
> Now, quit digging so hard to discredit me and find a new hobby.
>
> Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
> =^..^=
I am not dodging you are, and I don't need to discredit you. You perform
that job all by yourself in numerous posts throughout the group.
Edam
guess away
>argue about it?
Unless you're arguing *with* Verant, as in talking with *them* about
it, you're pretty much wasting breath. Brad and Gordon might read
things here, but neither are very receptive, all said.
Jeremy Music
>
>I'm not "apologizing" for the change. What I am saying is "deal with
>it". Cause, until Verant changes their mind on the issue, pissing and
>moaning HERE does ZERO good. All it accomplishes is arguments and
>flamewars.
You're wrong. Pissing and moaning here and elsewhere has resulted in
several changes, some even good (many not). How, exactly, is Verant
supposed to know that something is not well taken, or something is not well
planned, unless people complain about it?
I do have a high level character on a Zek, luckily a caster. I always
thought the melees were screwed already, especially monks and rogues. Now I
would be amazed to see anyone playing a monk or rogue, and expect the number
of warriors to drop considerably.
Fine with me, I play a necro and the melees were never carrying anything I
wanted anyway.
J
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://wyld.qx.net/~rezo/Sterling
re...@lords.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Adar
"Sang K. Choe" <sa...@choenet.com.remove.this.com> wrote in message
news:h5kpnsoqhs7jijjug...@4ax.com...
You're thinking like a dueler. That's decent for Tallon or Vallon, because
playing there is mostly like playing on a blue server now anyway, but it
doesn't work on Rallos.
It's not about a white con druid attacking a white con warrior in a fair
fight; it's about a 49'th level naked PK attacking a 45'th level melee at 2
bubs of HP. With pumice, the warrior could cancel snare and run; without
pumice, the warrior's chances of losing an item depend on how fast he could
bag all his stuff.
The fun part is, many of the dungeons have PK's waiting for easy prey just
on the other side of the zone; if you're still snared when you've zoned, you
have absolutely no chance to make it out alive, save maybe dying to a mob on
purpose (and losing XP).
How does a level 45 rogue (or better yet, a level 51-52 rogue vs a level 55
wizard with Draught of Fire and Bonds of Force) escape without pumice? He
doesn't; once any slow spell sticks, cancelling it is a must in order to
live.
Just to add the final touch of irony, odds are the CT golem is now endlessly
farmed on Rallos- by the same naked PK's who still want to dispel people's
buffs and who simply KS any normal-leveled group that comes near it (since
they're far outside the level range.)
Jeremy Music
>Dark Tyger <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>I'm not "apologizing" for the change. What I am saying is "deal with
>>it". Cause, until Verant changes their mind on the issue, pissing and
>>moaning HERE does ZERO good. All it accomplishes is arguments and
>>flamewars.
>
>You're wrong. Pissing and moaning here and elsewhere has resulted in
>several changes, some even good (many not). How, exactly, is Verant
>supposed to know that something is not well taken, or something is not well
>planned, unless people complain about it?
>
>I do have a high level character on a Zek, luckily a caster. I always
>thought the melees were screwed already, especially monks and rogues. Now I
>would be amazed to see anyone playing a monk or rogue, and expect the number
>of warriors to drop considerably.
>
>Fine with me, I play a necro and the melees were never carrying anything I
>wanted anyway.
>
I also should have added that I have always thought the no casting time
version was too powerful, but that the 4.5 second current version is
useless. The casting time should be 1.5 seconds. Interruptable, but not
impossible.
Dan Day
>On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:55:30 GMT, d...@firstnethou.com (Dan Day) wrote:
>
>>Someday, I pray that Verant finds a way to make Dark Tyger's
>>character almost impossible to play effectively, so that I can
>>suggest to him that it's "way too easy" to abandon all his work
>>on his current character and start all over again from scratch
>>in order to "find a character" that it's still possible to
>>"play effectively" so he'll stop "whining".
>
>And how are you sure I wouldn't change characters in this case? You
>assume too much...
Oh, puh-LEAZE...
Dan Day
>
>>Wrong "A" word. Try again.
>>
>>Seven letters. Ends with an "E".
>
>Hmm, okay, so you've degraded to childish namecalling involving
>implied obsceneties.
When the shoe fits, absolutely.
I believe in calling things as they are, and not sugarcoating them.
>Predictable.
If it's predictable that I'd consider you to be an asshole, when
I very seldom say such things, then perhaps you should ask yourself
why you'd expect such an opinion to be delivered in your
direction.
I take it this sort of thing happens to you rather frequently,
and thus you consider it unsurprising when it happens again.
Dark Tyger
>I am not dodging you are, and I don't need to discredit you. You perform
>that job all by yourself in numerous posts throughout the group.
...This is only true from the point of view that I actually argue with
the mudslingers and thus can be seen as bringing myself down to your
level.
--
Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
=^..^=
Dark Tyger
<pecos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>And how, pray tell, is Verant going to change their mind if people don't
>argue about it?
They won't. Problem is, it's highly unlikely anyone at Verant even
LOOKS at this newsgroup. So, point is, debating the issues might help,
but pissing and moaning **HERE** won't do diddly.
Dark Tyger
wrote:
>You're wrong. Pissing and moaning here and elsewhere has resulted in
>several changes, some even good (many not).
No, you're wrong. It's not anything in this newsgroup that has brought
change. The only forum Verant officially peruses about EQ and responds
to concerns in is their official forum linked from the EQ website.
I've yet to see anyone from Verant even acknowledge that any
worthwhile discussion goes on HERE.
Dark Tyger
>
>>Predictable.
>
>If it's predictable that I'd consider you to be an asshole, when
>I very seldom say such things, then perhaps you should ask yourself
>why you'd expect such an opinion to be delivered in your
>direction.
No, actually, it's predictable that you'd very quickly turn to such
childish behavior. As someone else said, namecalling is an indication
that a solid rebuttal couldn't be formed, and the namecaller is too
stubborn to admit they might not be 100% right.
Dark Tyger
>>Hmm, okay, so you've degraded to childish namecalling involving
>>implied obsceneties.
>
>When the shoe fits, absolutely.
...I might add...
...And when the "shoe" is just arbitrarily slung out of spite?
>I believe in calling things as they are, and not sugarcoating them.
Very good, you can start "calling things as they are" when you stop
letting your dogma color things in your favor.
Vernos P Branco
notice many long time players have quit for those kinds of reasons !
The Cynic <pecos...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MKye5.24978$661.4...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
> I realize 99% of you probably don't care one whit about PvP, but
> nevertheless, check out this link:
>
> http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum4/HTML/063703.html
>
> Read that and bump the thread. It's in regards to the recent STEALTH NERF
> made by Verant, whereby all Egg Shaped Pumice have been removed from
vendors
> and replaced with 'Crystallized Pumice'. The difference? New pumice has a
> 4.5 second cast time.
>
> Net result? Melees in PvP have just had their backs broken. Thanks
> Verant. I've spent 10 months developing a troll warrior. I'm within half
a
> bubble of level 54 and have a solid history of roleplaying to boot. I've
> put a lot of time and dedication into this character and was looking
forward
> to more of the same. Now you've removed the one item in the game that
gave
> any semblance of balance between meleers and casters, and I will either be
> disgraced on the battlefield or I can quit playing PvP. Awesome choices
you
> present me with, and a fine example of why you shouldn't go nerfing shit
for
> no reason.
>
>
>
Jeremy Music
>On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:30:43 GMT, re...@darkstar.qx.net (Jeremy Music)
>wrote:
>
>>You're wrong. Pissing and moaning here and elsewhere has resulted in
>>several changes, some even good (many not).
>
>No, you're wrong. It's not anything in this newsgroup that has brought
>change. The only forum Verant officially peruses about EQ and responds
>to concerns in is their official forum linked from the EQ website.
>I've yet to see anyone from Verant even acknowledge that any
>worthwhile discussion goes on HERE.
Then you've been around a much shorter time than I thought. You're still
wrong.
Dark Tyger
wrote:
>Dark Tyger <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:30:43 GMT, re...@darkstar.qx.net (Jeremy Music)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>You're wrong. Pissing and moaning here and elsewhere has resulted in
>>>several changes, some even good (many not).
>>
>>No, you're wrong. It's not anything in this newsgroup that has brought
>>change. The only forum Verant officially peruses about EQ and responds
>>to concerns in is their official forum linked from the EQ website.
>>I've yet to see anyone from Verant even acknowledge that any
>>worthwhile discussion goes on HERE.
>
>Then you've been around a much shorter time than I thought. You're still
>wrong.
>
>J
Usually, discussions here mirror what's being discussed on the
official forum. That's why it appears that this NG has anything more
than a trivial influence on changes in the game.
That is, at least, the case at present. It may have been different
once. This group might have had a major influence. I see no evidence
that would lead me to believe that it does NOW, and that's what
matters in my statement.
Jeremy Music
>On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:06:13 GMT, re...@darkstar.qx.net (Jeremy Music)
>wrote:
>
>>Dark Tyger <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:30:43 GMT, re...@darkstar.qx.net (Jeremy Music)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>You're wrong. Pissing and moaning here and elsewhere has resulted in
>>>>several changes, some even good (many not).
>>>
>>>No, you're wrong. It's not anything in this newsgroup that has brought
>>>change. The only forum Verant officially peruses about EQ and responds
>>>to concerns in is their official forum linked from the EQ website.
>>>I've yet to see anyone from Verant even acknowledge that any
>>>worthwhile discussion goes on HERE.
>>
>>Then you've been around a much shorter time than I thought. You're still
>>wrong.
>>
>>J
>
>Usually, discussions here mirror what's being discussed on the
>official forum. That's why it appears that this NG has anything more
>than a trivial influence on changes in the game.
>
>That is, at least, the case at present. It may have been different
>once. This group might have had a major influence. I see no evidence
>that would lead me to believe that it does NOW, and that's what
>matters in my statement.
>
And of course you left out the evidence that would lead you to believe the
EQ site boards have a major influence. Saying you don't see evidence that
this newsgroup has an effect (try doing a search on deja for "wrinn mcquaid
alt.games.everquest"), and not presenting any evidence to the contrary, or
even evidence that supports....
Blah, you're not worth it.
J
(www.m-w.com: futile, pointless, useless, talking to a wall)
Jeremy Music
Let me temper this with the statement that I don't think any forum has much
impact on Verant's decisions. Saying that what is seen here (and it is seen
here, at least some of it) has no influence is just being blind for the sake
of trying to be right.
You think they choose to ignore an entire group of customers purely because
they don't post on the official boards? Ridiculous.
You think they don't read this newsgroup at least some? Easily proven
wrong.
J
(Still talking to the wall probably.)
Dark Tyger
wrote:
>And of course you left out the evidence that would lead you to believe the
>EQ site boards have a major influence.
Well, there's the fact that Gordy responds there regularly, and has
noted that certain changes have been made due to demand there...
Edam
>
> ...This is only true from the point of view that I actually argue with
> the mudslingers and thus can be seen as bringing myself down to your
> level.
>
> --
> Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
> =^..^=
Right and these mudslingers would be umm you by that statement.
Anyone ever notice how this guy just has to have the last word on every
topic he posts under. I wouldn't say he argues he's point, he's just so
stubborn that people just give up.
Edam
(Trying to stoop to DT's level)
Dark Tyger
>Right and these mudslingers would be umm you by that statement.
Oh, and I guess the idiots who blast Verant for every little flaw then
turn around and blast me every time I say something that's not even
vaguely anti-Verant don't qualify? Go buy a clue.
>Anyone ever notice how this guy just has to have the last word on every
>topic he posts under.
Heh. There's a difference between defending myself against comepletely
unfair attacks feuled by completely hypocritical double-standards and
"having to get the last word".
--
Change "Tyger" to "half" to email me.
=^..^=
Dark Tyger
Tyger) wrote:
>blast me every time I say something that's not even
>vaguely anti-Verant
Gotta re-word that. It's what I get for posting first thing in the
morning. "every time I say something that's even vaguely pro-Verant".
Something like that.