You are NOT a tank if...
Ray Grant
much, they should instill confidence in the rest
of the group to do their respective jobs.
Kay Anders wrote:
>
> Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
<snip>
> And if you just can't resist stepping up onto the front lines, then do
> what I did...Go make a Warrior so that you can get it out of your
> system. It took me doing that before I honestly realized my Shaman was
> just that--a Shaman.... And NOT a warrior. And now my Shaman is much
> more fun. ;)
Kay Anders
- Are you an Enchanter? Wizard? Magician? Necromancer? Then you're
not a tank. Your job is to cast. I'll let an Enchanter take one hit so
that their pet will kick in, but after that, step back. I have three
times your HP and twice your AC, my agility and strength beat yours and
probably my dexterity, so let me do my job so you can do yours.
- Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid? You make a good backup
tank--you've got the HP and AC to take a lesser beating in case the tank
(if any) isn't available. But if I'm there... Let me do my job. Don't
take the beating for me. Don't make it so we *both* have to be healed
by a bystander, instead of you keeping me alive. And for God's sake,
don't stand between me and the mob so I can't get close enough to hit
it--especially if one of us is a large race.
- Are you a Bard? See above about Clerics, Shamans and Druids, but
remember that your song gets interrupted when you're hit--and your song
is your trademark. So chose your tanking time wisely.
- Are you a Monk? Paladin? Shadowknight? Warrior? You're a tank.
You get to take the beating and enjoy it. That's why we do what we do!
Most--but not all--of the time, you'll be the puller, so be ready to
explain to Wizards why pulling the AoF with a nuke (or Cleric/Smite,
etc) is not always the smartest thing to do. :)
Just don't try to use your Enchanter or Mage to tank. You'll die. And
if you're a Cleric who's trying to tank while four mobs pound on two
warriors, we'll *all* die--you'll just die last.
Fabno Licious
--
[35 Enchanter] Fabno (Erudite) <Warriors of Apocalypse>
Erollisi Marr
"Kay Anders" <k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote in message
news:38F9390E...@red-star.net.hates.spam...
Gary Smith
"Ray Grant" <rjg...@kern.com> wrote in message
news:38F94B96...@kern.com...
> Agreed. As long as the Tank doesnt prom queen too
> much, they should instill confidence in the rest
> of the group to do their respective jobs.
>
> Kay Anders wrote:
> >
> > Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
>
> <snip>
rak...@my-deja.com
k...@red-star.net.remove.this.part wrote:
> Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
>
> what I did...Go make a Warrior so that you can get it out of your
> system. It took me doing that before I honestly realized my Shaman
was
> just that--a Shaman.... And NOT a warrior. And now my Shaman is much
> more fun. ;)
>
>
Looks confused....but....but....what about my Rogue? *Cries* What do
I do w/ my Rogue??? LOL :)
Rak.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|OK, I'll bite. Prom queen?
Any fighter-class PC who eschews high-AC items for low or NO AC items with
stat bennies.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
Inner Child and kick its little ass!" -- D. Henley & G. Fry, "Get Over It"
Mark A. Rimer
Necromancer?
> - Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid?
What about rogues?
;-)
Edward James Kilsdonk
A melee type who wears a lot of stat-increasing jewelry instead
of AC. Serpentine bracers and jeweled masks are the classic
combo of the prom queen.
And I agree with Kay - everyone should have a tank, a czapper,
and a healer (even if only very low level) so they understand
what to do and not to do when grouped.
Ted K. who spent Friday night convincing the enchanter that we
could lower downtime if he disbanded his pet and stopped trying
to pull.
>"Ray Grant" <rjg...@kern.com> wrote in message
>news:38F94B96...@kern.com...
>> Agreed. As long as the Tank doesnt prom queen too
>> much, they should instill confidence in the rest
>> of the group to do their respective jobs.
>>
>> Kay Anders wrote:
>> >
>> > Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > And if you just can't resist stepping up onto the front lines, then do
>> > what I did...Go make a Warrior so that you can get it out of your
>> > system. It took me doing that before I honestly realized my Shaman was
>> > just that--a Shaman.... And NOT a warrior. And now my Shaman is much
>> > more fun. ;)
>>
>
>
--
Edward J. Kilsdonk Look, ytte is written in Olde. It muste
Graduate Student, History bee fromme before they invented fpelling.
Univerfity of Virginia
Red...@Virginia.EDU http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~ejk4e
Joe Boo D2
>;-)
>
>
Rogues still exist? I thought they had gone extinct.
Gogeta Vekou
Pat Cole
>and a healer (even if only very low level) so they understand
>what to do and not to do when grouped.
What wonderful advice. I think playing a tank is THE MOST important myself. If
people followed the above advice then perhaps there would be less dicks like
the idiot warrior in Mistmoore a few days ago who left my group in a huff
because I wouldn't Skin like Steel him in the middle of an extended series of
pulls when I was at 20% mana and the primary healer. God-damned prima donna,
you know who you are, and you should know you'll find a hard time finding a
group with friends of Knot Weedkin!
Pat
Knot: 31 Druid Lanys T'vyl
Who played a warrior for his first char, necro for his second, and Knot for his
3rd, and who learned in one try that Gheal is not always the best heal :)
Ameer
group (ex. Deathfist Belt off a Orc Centaurian in the Commons).
"Mark A. Rimer" <mri...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vslK4.50925$Uz3.5...@typhoon.midsouth.rr.com...
Sean Kennedy
<rak...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dcodv$48b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > - Are you a Bard? See above about Clerics, Shamans and Druids, but
> > remember that your song gets interrupted when you're hit--and your
> song
> > is your trademark. So chose your tanking time wisely.
Ahem, Bard songs only get interrupted on a successful bash/slam/stun
not by getting hit. You are right however, bards simply can't take the
punishment at higher levels to even think of tanking.
Kay Anders
Pat Cole wrote:
> >And I agree with Kay - everyone should have a tank, a czapper,
> >and a healer (even if only very low level) so they understand
> >what to do and not to do when grouped.
>
> What wonderful advice. I think playing a tank is THE MOST important myself.
I agree--EVERYONE should play a tank at some point for two reasons...
1) To get it out of their system.
2) To learn how to work with a tank.
My first main char was my Shaman; got her to 20 alongside a closely-leveled Shaman
and Warrior friend. Only now am I realizing just what hell we put BC (the tank)
through, and I'm more grateful than ever for everything I learned from him. I wish
I'd learned it earlier, though. And I wish the folks I group with would learn it
too... I'm getting tired of not being able to hit things 'cause the casters feel
like they have to crowd the mob in front of me. ;X
BTW, that tank I mentinoed? He remains one of the best, most natural tanks I've
ever seen. He's Bloodcelt on Rathe, btw, aces in my book. ;) And the other Shaman
is now a level 37 Warrior on Rathe, and having also learned from BC, he, too, is
one of the best tanks I've ever seen. :)
Kay Anders
who could not seem to remember they were not tanks, and thusly, should
MEDITATE and not TRY TO TANK.
Don't get me started on that Cleric. ;X
Fabno Licious wrote:
> hehe sounds like someone got invited into a bad group?
>
> --
>
> [35 Enchanter] Fabno (Erudite) <Warriors of Apocalypse>
> Erollisi Marr
>
> "Kay Anders" <k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote in message
> news:38F9390E...@red-star.net.hates.spam...
> > Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
> >
> > - Are you an Enchanter? Wizard? Magician? Necromancer? Then you're
> > not a tank. Your job is to cast. I'll let an Enchanter take one hit so
> > that their pet will kick in, but after that, step back. I have three
> > times your HP and twice your AC, my agility and strength beat yours and
> > probably my dexterity, so let me do my job so you can do yours.
> >
> > - Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid? You make a good backup
> > tank--you've got the HP and AC to take a lesser beating in case the tank
> > (if any) isn't available. But if I'm there... Let me do my job. Don't
> > take the beating for me. Don't make it so we *both* have to be healed
> > by a bystander, instead of you keeping me alive. And for God's sake,
> > don't stand between me and the mob so I can't get close enough to hit
> > it--especially if one of us is a large race.
> >
> > - Are you a Bard? See above about Clerics, Shamans and Druids, but
> > remember that your song gets interrupted when you're hit--and your song
> > is your trademark. So chose your tanking time wisely.
> >
> > - Are you a Monk? Paladin? Shadowknight? Warrior? You're a tank.
> > You get to take the beating and enjoy it. That's why we do what we do!
> > Most--but not all--of the time, you'll be the puller, so be ready to
> > explain to Wizards why pulling the AoF with a nuke (or Cleric/Smite,
> > etc) is not always the smartest thing to do. :)
> >
> > Just don't try to use your Enchanter or Mage to tank. You'll die. And
> > if you're a Cleric who's trying to tank while four mobs pound on two
> > warriors, we'll *all* die--you'll just die last.
> >
Angel
tuant button, do you have dual weild, or double attack??? Hmmm you can do
100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells? With
those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL get
group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
too?
--
Casse Thimble <Ill Tempered Sea Bass> - Gnome Magician 39, Bristlebane
Alasdair Allan <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8ddmkg$1pm$1...@lure.pipex.net...
>
> Kay Anders wrote in message <38F9390E...@red-star.net.hates.spam>...
> >Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
> >
> > - Are you an Enchanter? Wizard? Magician? Necromancer? Then you're
> >not a tank. Your job is to cast. I'll let an Enchanter take one hit so
> >that their pet will kick in, but after that, step back. I have three
> >times your HP and twice your AC, my agility and strength beat yours and
> >probably my dexterity, so let me do my job so you can do yours.
> >
> > - Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid? You make a good backup
> >tank--you've got the HP and AC to take a lesser beating in case the tank
> >(if any) isn't available. But if I'm there... Let me do my job. Don't
> >take the beating for me. Don't make it so we *both* have to be healed
> >by a bystander, instead of you keeping me alive. And for God's sake,
> >don't stand between me and the mob so I can't get close enough to hit
> >it--especially if one of us is a large race.
>
> When I get my Rune Etched BP and if I ever get round to getting my
> Polished Mithril Mask, my AC will be 872 with Resolution and Shield of
> Words (or about 850 self buffed) and I can regenerate health at a rate of
> 45hps per tick.
>
> Now tell me I don't make a better damage absorber.
>
> (Of course there are other problems to Shamantanks - but the above
> generalisation is not right).
>
> --
> Regards,
> Alasdair
>
>
Blah
what about Rangers?
Kay Anders
Rogues are better backup tanks than others, but none *are* tanks; likewise
Bards. And playing both a Ranger and a Warrior, I'm of the mind that Rangers
should be secondary tanks, behind Warriors, Paladins and SK's, but again, I
didn't feel edified enough to include it.
Mark A. Rimer wrote:
> Kay Anders <k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote in message
> news:38F9390E.42ED4765@red-> - Are you an Enchanter? Wizard? Magician?
> Necromancer?
> > - Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid?
> > - Are you a Bard?
> > - Are you a Monk? Paladin? Shadowknight? Warrior?
>
> What about rogues?
> ;-)
Kay Anders
group backstabbing--especially with a tank or two, or a monk--and you'll have
some mighty fast victories indeed. :)
Ameer wrote:
> Rogues are suppose to just steal the items off something being killed by a
> group (ex. Deathfist Belt off a Orc Centaurian in the Commons).
> "Mark A. Rimer" <mri...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:vslK4.50925$Uz3.5...@typhoon.midsouth.rr.com...
Alasdair Allan
Billy Shields
: Shamans are not tanks!!!! Does not matter how good your ac is, do you have a
: tuant button, do you have dual weild, or double attack??? Hmmm you can do
: 100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells? With
: those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL get
: group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
: too?
Between rage, alacrity, togor, chloro and a pet a shaman can tank
pretty darn well. With melee damage alone in this scenario they
can iill some things a pure tank couldn't hope to. I know a 50
shaman who has an AC of ~835. Thats good enough to take the pain
on most things.
Sergey Dashevskiy
Me)hotmail.com> says...
> Shamans are not tanks!!!!
If you wish them to, they can be. Right now my shaman tanks about same as
an average ranger, at level 28
> Does not matter how good your ac is,
Actually it does, sorry. Your ac helps you take less damage per swing
> do you have a
> tuant button,
I don't need to. If I want to, my friend's rogue can't get things off me,
no matter how much he backstabs
> do you have dual weild, or double attack???
What the hell does that have to do with tanking?! Paladins don't ever get
dual wield, but they are tanks. Bard get dual wield at 17, but they are
not tanks. Freakin monks get dual wield at level 1. Offensive skills
don't mix with tanking, it's a different ballpark
> Hmmm you can do
> 100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells? With
> those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac.
Hehe, no he won't. Average tank won't. Most tanks don't even go for AC.
My bard had higher ac than most tanks she grouped with.
> Casters who try to tank WILL get
> group memebers killed.
No, not a shaman that knows what he's doing
> Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
> too?
I believe he was trying to compare it to a warrior. And I think he won
>
>
> --
> Casse Thimble <Ill Tempered Sea Bass> - Gnome Magician 39, Bristlebane
>
> Alasdair Allan <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8ddmkg$1pm$1...@lure.pipex.net...
> >
Eric Harding
>Shamans are not tanks!!!! Does not matter how good your ac is, do you have a
>tuant button, do you have dual weild, or double attack??? Hmmm you can do
>100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells? With
>group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
>too?
>
>
You are fogetting one thing: Alasdair thinks that the shaman class, and any
character played by him is god's gift to EQ. He can do no wrong, and no one
can change his mind on anything. Don't even try anymore, it's a waste of
time.
Eric
Angel
Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:38fa786d$0$27...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
> Angel <pixierancher@(Remove Me)hotmail.com> wrote:
> : Shamans are not tanks!!!! Does not matter how good your ac is, do you
have a
> : tuant button, do you have dual weild, or double attack??? Hmmm you can
do
> : 100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells?
With
> : those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL
get
> : group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage
absorbesion
> : too?
>
> Between rage, alacrity, togor, chloro and a pet a shaman can tank
> pretty darn well. With melee damage alone in this scenario they
> can iill some things a pure tank couldn't hope to. I know a 50
> shaman who has an AC of ~835. Thats good enough to take the pain
> on most things.
>
Just because you die slower than a druid or pure caster does not make you a
tank. If I catch a shaman tanking on purpose in my group they are gonna hear
about it. Tanks have another feature that shamans don't a lot more hp,
better battle skills. What happens when you put regen, celerity or
augmentation, damage sheilds, etc. on the tank. You have a group doing their
job right, so if stuff is not overcrowded, more pulls, more exp. I don't
mind if shamans get up to work on their battle skills when they are FOM, I
don't like to see the shaman saying OOM then getting up cuase he/she thinks
their club will actually help.
Angel
Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.13645fa5d...@news.msu.edu...
> In article <38fa6...@nntp2.nac.net>, "Angel" <pixierancher@(Remove
> Me)hotmail.com> says...
> > Shamans are not tanks!!!!
>
> If you wish them to, they can be. Right now my shaman tanks about same as
> an average ranger, at level 28
>
> > Does not matter how good your ac is,
>
> Actually it does, sorry. Your ac helps you take less damage per swing
>
> > do you have a
> > tuant button,
>
> I don't need to. If I want to, my friend's rogue can't get things off me,
> no matter how much he backstabs
>
> > do you have dual weild, or double attack???
>
> What the hell does that have to do with tanking?! Paladins don't ever get
> dual wield, but they are tanks. Bard get dual wield at 17, but they are
> not tanks. Freakin monks get dual wield at level 1. Offensive skills
> don't mix with tanking, it's a different ballpark
The more damage you do the easier you can taunt, that's why casters don't
get up and start blasting away unless they want to lose some exp.
>
> > Hmmm you can do
> > 100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells?
With
> > those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac.
>
> Hehe, no he won't. Average tank won't. Most tanks don't even go for AC.
> My bard had higher ac than most tanks she grouped with.
>
> > Casters who try to tank WILL get
> > group memebers killed.
>
> No, not a shaman that knows what he's doing
A shaman who know what he is doing will not get up and say lemme tank, that
as retarted as a ranger saying I'm gonna stand back and cast on it.
>
> > Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
> > too?
>
> I believe he was trying to compare it to a warrior. And I think he won
A Shaman is not a tank not even close, a shaman is a caster.
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Casse Thimble <Ill Tempered Sea Bass> - Gnome Magician 39, Bristlebane
> >
Billy Shields
: Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
: news:38fa786d$0$27...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
:> Angel <pixierancher@(Remove Me)hotmail.com> wrote:
:> : Shamans are not tanks!!!! Does not matter how good your ac is, do you
: have a
:> : tuant button, do you have dual weild, or double attack??? Hmmm you can
: do
:> : 100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells?
: With
:> : those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL
: get
:> : group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage
: absorbesion
:> : too?
:>
:> Between rage, alacrity, togor, chloro and a pet a shaman can tank
:> pretty darn well. With melee damage alone in this scenario they
:> can iill some things a pure tank couldn't hope to. I know a 50
:> shaman who has an AC of ~835. Thats good enough to take the pain
:> on most things.
:>
: Just because you die slower than a druid or pure caster does not make you a
: tank. If I catch a shaman tanking on purpose in my group they are gonna hear
: about it. Tanks have another feature that shamans don't a lot more hp,
: better battle skills. What happens when you put regen, celerity or
: augmentation, damage sheilds, etc. on the tank. You have a group doing their
: job right, so if stuff is not overcrowded, more pulls, more exp. I don't
: mind if shamans get up to work on their battle skills when they are FOM, I
: don't like to see the shaman saying OOM then getting up cuase he/she thinks
: their club will actually help.
A shaman's weapon skills cap at 200. Thats not bad. A level 50
shaman with a gatorsmash maul can:
1. Regen at *44* hit points a tick
2. Average approximately 10damage/second (a warrior with 2 ykeshas
does about 16-17 before haste, procs and crits)
3. Have a 12-13 point damage shield if they care to make and use a
potiion
4. Can halve the attacks of whatever they're hitting
It has been demonstrated that with *melee damage alone* a shaman
can tank and kill an ice giant. Thats something most warriors
would fine impossible.
Shamans can tank better than bards yet its bards I see pretending to
be fighters (which irks me no end). Bards can't take the pain nor
can they dish out the damage. More importantly, they have a reason
not to wield weapons (ie instruments).
Shamans don't as a general rule act as primary tanks but that doesn't
mean that they can't or shouldn't tank. Sadly not many shamans seem
to even realise they have the ability to tank (these are usually
the guys running around casting stat buffs til they're OOM).
Maybe you want your casters/healers to sit in the corner and heal
on commands but don't be surprised if competent ones tell you that
you have no idea what you're talking about.
Mr Foo Bar
Edward James Kilsdonk <ej...@node6.unix.Virginia.EDU> wrote in message
news:8dcoib$f9j$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> In article <YukK4.22924$q67.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> Gary Smith <gsm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >OK, I'll bite. Prom queen?
>
> A melee type who wears a lot of stat-increasing jewelry instead
> of AC. Serpentine bracers and jeweled masks are the classic
> combo of the prom queen.
>
> and a healer (even if only very low level) so they understand
> what to do and not to do when grouped.
>
> could lower downtime if he disbanded his pet and stopped trying
> to pull.
Please tell me you're < level 20 ? If not did you ask this guy how much he
pay for his enchanter on EBay ?
Sergey Dashevskiy
hotmail.com> says...
>
>
> Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> news:38fa786d$0$27...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
> > Angel <pixierancher@(Remove Me)hotmail.com> wrote:
> > : Shamans are not tanks!!!! Does not matter how good your ac is, do you
> have a
> > : tuant button, do you have dual weild, or double attack??? Hmmm you can
> do
> > : 100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells?
> With
> > : those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL
> get
> > : group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage
> absorbesion
> > : too?
> >
> > Between rage, alacrity, togor, chloro and a pet a shaman can tank
> > pretty darn well. With melee damage alone in this scenario they
> > can iill some things a pure tank couldn't hope to. I know a 50
> > shaman who has an AC of ~835. Thats good enough to take the pain
> > on most things.
> >
> Just because you die slower than a druid or pure caster does not make you a
> tank. If I catch a shaman tanking on purpose in my group they are gonna hear
> about it.
Would you prefer to see your shaman running around like a girl screaming
"get it off me, get it off me, it's hurting me!", while your ass needs a
heal? Shamans don't generally tank on purpose, they just take their hits
patiently while still casting, until their tanks get mobs taunted off
them.
> Tanks have another feature that shamans don't a lot more hp,
> better battle skills.
More hp is invalid in most fights. Or will you tell me that in every
fight every tank is hurt for at least 1200 hp? Generally the answer is
"no"
> What happens when you put regen, celerity or
> augmentation, damage sheilds, etc. on the tank. You have a group doing their
> job right, so if stuff is not overcrowded, more pulls, more exp.
correct
> I don't
> mind if shamans get up to work on their battle skills when they are FOM, I
> don't like to see the shaman saying OOM then getting up cuase he/she thinks
> their club will actually help.
Why do they have to be oom? And if a shaman hits for average of 65
damage once every 4 seconds, does extra 975 damage a minute bother you
too much?
>
> --
> Casse Thimble <Ill Tempered Sea Bass> - Gnome Magician 39, Bristlebane
>
>
>
>
>
--
Vedun, 26th tank mage
Xirin, 31st retired druid
Xirinia Gusl'ar, 41st tanking bard of Povar, guildless
Run fast, die often, leave a well dressed corpse.
Sergey Dashevskiy
ran...@opera.iinet.net.au says...
> A shaman's weapon skills cap at 200. Thats not bad. A level 50
> shaman with a gatorsmash maul can:
>
> 1. Regen at *44* hit points a tick
> 2. Average approximately 10damage/second (a warrior with 2 ykeshas
> does about 16-17 before haste, procs and crits)
> 3. Have a 12-13 point damage shield if they care to make and use a
> potiion
> 4. Can halve the attacks of whatever they're hitting
>
> It has been demonstrated that with *melee damage alone* a shaman
> can tank and kill an ice giant. Thats something most warriors
> would fine impossible.
>
> Shamans can tank better than bards
Actually in a group it's about the same. The only difference is that
bard's inner regeneration is only 18 hp/tick
> yet its bards I see pretending to
> be fighters (which irks me no end).
Better my bard tanking than enchanter...
> Bards can't take the pain nor
> can they dish out the damage.
Actually bards *can* take some pain. It's just that most bards don't
know how to, just like most shamans that dress up like a druid. About
damage... In a controlled situation a bard can outdamage a ranger with
an instrument only attacks. The only problem with that is that this bard
is not singing any party enhancing songs
> More importantly, they have a reason
> not to wield weapons (ie instruments).
>
> Shamans don't as a general rule act as primary tanks but that doesn't
> mean that they can't or shouldn't tank. Sadly not many shamans seem
> to even realise they have the ability to tank (these are usually
> the guys running around casting stat buffs til they're OOM).
>
> Maybe you want your casters/healers to sit in the corner and heal
> on commands but don't be surprised if competent ones tell you that
> you have no idea what you're talking about.
>
>
>
--
Sergey Dashevskiy
> get up and start blasting away unless they want to lose some exp.
I haven't had a nuke memorised for quite a while. Yet I still outtaunt a
rogue *IF I WANT TO*. I do that because I do want him to backstab, and
because I do make a better tank than a rogue. Which reminds me, I'm 28
now, haven't died since the gorge hound incident at 19. How is it
working about losing some exp?
> > No, not a shaman that knows what he's doing
>
> A shaman who know what he is doing will not get up and say lemme tank, that
> as retarted as a ranger saying I'm gonna stand back and cast on it.
Actually if you read what I said more carefully, you will see that it
actually makes more sense than ranger casting. At my level *my* shaman
has same hitpoints and same ac as a ranger. He can cast through hits
without being interrupted pretty much. Give me one reason why he has to
sit and let the softer rogue take the hits while he's wasting his mana
on heals?
BTW, my normal group is: shaman, enchanter, rogue, sometimes paladin.
When the paladin is there, he's the primary tank (duh), with shaman
being secondary. When he's not, the shaman tanks
>
> >
> > > Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
> > > too?
> >
> > I believe he was trying to compare it to a warrior. And I think he won
> A Shaman is not a tank not even close, a shaman is a caster.
Try to find a shaman that concentrated on ac instead of wisdom, and see
what I'm talking about. At 40 shamans can solo hill giants toe to toe.
At 50 they can do it with Ice Giants. Are you telling me that it's not
even close to tanking?
JackiePrice
> dual wield, but they are tanks. Bard get dual wield at 17, but they are
> not tanks. Freakin monks get dual wield at level 1. Offensive skills
> don't mix with tanking, it's a different ballpark
>
Monks are awesome tanks. (and yes, I mean damage absorption, not
offensively).
But you are right anyway, dual weild and double attack does not make one a
tank...just not sure why monks are listed there.
Sergey Dashevskiy
nos...@NOSPAM.ca says...
> > What the hell does that have to do with tanking?! Paladins don't ever get
> > dual wield, but they are tanks. Bard get dual wield at 17, but they are
> > not tanks. Freakin monks get dual wield at level 1. Offensive skills
> > don't mix with tanking, it's a different ballpark
> >
>
> Monks are awesome tanks. (and yes, I mean damage absorption, not
> offensively).
Oups, sorry
>
> But you are right anyway, dual weild and double attack does not make one a
> tank...just not sure why monks are listed there.
Haven't grouped with many monks at high levels, and when I did there
would usually be a warrior to do the main tanking. So that's why I
didn't know
JackiePrice
> > offensively).
>
> Oups, sorry
>
> >
> > But you are right anyway, dual weild and double attack does not make one
a
> > tank...just not sure why monks are listed there.
>
> Haven't grouped with many monks at high levels, and when I did there
> would usually be a warrior to do the main tanking. So that's why I
> didn't know
Common misconception, because monks have lousy hit points. I'll repost here
what I posted in another thread, just fyi.
(reposted)
Monks take melee damage far better than Paladins or Shadowknights. Monks
get hit so little that they will outlast either of those, despite having
less hit points.
With warriors and monks its a toss up.
As a general rule, here is when you don't want a monk absorbing your damage.
1) The mob is an ubermob substantially tougher than its level would
indicate, or is quite a number of levels higher than the monk. In those
situations the monk will not evade enough, and get hit for so much damage
when they do get hit that their low hit points will not last long.
2) Casters are involved. Monks have little resistance to magic, and low hit
point totals. Since their superb defensive skills (best defense ability in
the game by far) are useless against magic spells, monks fall fast to that
NPC wizard.
Here is when a monk shines as a tank, usually doing better than an
equivalently levelled warrior.
1) The damage dealing mobs are primarily melee combatants, and are either
even with the monk or within 2 or 3 levels higher. In these cases, monks
will be very efficient at reducing damage being taken, helping out the
clerics a lot, but not substantially more so than a warrior. The lower hit
points of the monk means its more dangerous to do, but no less efficient if
at all.
2) The damage dealing mobs are primarily melee combatants, and are all blue
or high green cons. In this scenario the monk shines supreme. A monk
simply doesn't get hit by green cons. A level 40+ monk can stand in upper
guk or runnyeye and just let mobs beat on them and will be regenerating
health naturally as fast as they are taking damage. A warrior came with my
monk into runnyeye once to hit all the named spawns quick and fast, maybe
pull out a couple nice low level items for sale (after all, runnyeye is
always empty anyway.) He was higher level than me, we were both in our low
40's. He almost died, because of the sheer numbers hitting him. He got hit
a LOT. Sure, they never hit for full damage, and frequently for almost
nothing, but they usually hit him. I just did not get hit. With my mend
skill I could heal damage faster than the goblins could do it. The same
holds true for most blue cons, monks take less damage by far from melee
combat than warriors. If you are fighting a constant stream of blues,
forget having the warrior taunt...the monk takes the damage better, and will
be more efficient.
Edward James Kilsdonk
>pay for his enchanter on EBay ?
Level 22, enchanter was level 21. I know it is his character
because he is a local gaming buddy.
The problem is that I showed up late and until I got there the
group was: druid, enchanter, wizard, wizard. The enchanter pet
was necessary. It just took him a few minutes to change gears.
And I must say that I like what 2 wizards do to a necromancer
npc in Befallen.
Ted K>
Edward James Kilsdonk
Kay Anders <k...@red-star.net.remove.this.part> wrote:
>Someone was leading a group that was decent, but had an Enchanter and a Cleric
>who could not seem to remember they were not tanks, and thusly, should
>MEDITATE and not TRY TO TANK.
>
>Don't get me started on that Cleric. ;X
Clerics can tank. They just don't do it very well. About the
only time my cleric tanks is when grouped with a bunch of
finger-wagglers. At that point, the cleric does have the best
armor and hit points.
But as soon as a melee type shows up the cleric needs to shift
back into mana management mode and only melee when it is the
most efficient use of her time.
dre
not have 1000+ ac with those buffs. I consider myself to be fairly
well equipped, but with self-buffs, a shaman will have more ac and
unfortunately, probably more hp.
> With
>those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL get
>group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
>too?
Sergey Dashevskiy
says...
> I just want to state for the record that I, as a 50th lvl ranger, will
> not have 1000+ ac with those buffs. I consider myself to be fairly
> well equipped, but with self-buffs, a shaman will have more ac and
> unfortunately, probably more hp.
In most common situations, however, ranger *will* make a better tank
(defensive skills, offensive skills, if one wants to mix them into the
tanking category). Shaman can share the taken damage though
>
> > With
> >those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL get
> >group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
> >too?
>
>
--
Vedun, 28th tank mage
Eric Schnoor
829ac and with self buffs can raise that by 25ac. We DO have dual weild, we
DO have a higher dodge cap (parry and riposte at 53 and 58 respectively, you
can check that at any bard guildmaster in the game now) and we DO still sing
songs while we melee or tank. I hit for 40s on a regular basis and on a nice
hit, will break into the 50s. With a delay of 25 (lessened by the haste of
the songs we sing) we can do a decent job of taking melee damage and a
somewhat respectable job of dishing it out all while buffing and enhancing
the whole party. Not to mention that we have two stackable regen songs and
attack slowing songs, one of the regen songs also increases str and atk (the
atk is not from the str, it is a seperate component). Many of our songs do
NOT require us to use an instrument to get the maximum benifits from. Take
Verses of Victory for instance, our hallmark 50 song. 30% haste, 30agi,
30str and 20ac and it is sung. Billy Shields 2 not understand bards.
Now of course, standing back, I can heal for more, charm extra mobs, or do
upto 150damage a tick juggling my chant series of dot/debuffs using my selos
drum. There is a different technique for every situation and sometimes it's
best just to wade in and get a little dirty. Bards are more than equal to
the task.
Oh yeah, and we're faster than you too.
Eric
> : Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> Shamans can tank better than bards yet its bards I see pretending to
> be fighters (which irks me no end). Bards can't take the pain nor
> can they dish out the damage. More importantly, they have a reason
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|It has been demonstrated that with *melee damage alone* a shaman
|can tank and kill an ice giant. Thats something most warriors
|would fine impossible.
Now, how can people say something like that with a straight face and still
claim that there isn't a severe balance problem between casters and fighters?
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
Inner Child and kick its little ass!" -- D. Henley & G. Fry, "Get Over It"
mida...@my-deja.com
Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Shamans don't as a general rule act as primary tanks but that doesn't
> mean that they can't or shouldn't tank. Sadly not many shamans seem
> to even realise they have the ability to tank (these are usually
> the guys running around casting stat buffs til they're OOM).
Stat-Buffing shamans don't tick me off nearly as much as the ones that
med-nuke-med-nuke like a wizard.
They would do more damage if they laid down one dot and then just
meleed. And would have more mana at the end of the fight, too.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
mida...@my-deja.com
k...@red-star.net.remove.this.part wrote:
> Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
>
> - Are you an Enchanter? Wizard? Magician? Necromancer? Then
> you're not a tank. Your job is to cast. I'll let an Enchanter take
> one hit so that their pet will kick in, but after that, step back. I
> have three times your HP and twice your AC, my agility and strength
> beat yours and probably my dexterity, so let me do my job so you can
> do yours.
> - Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid? You make a good backup
> tank--you've got the HP and AC to take a lesser beating in case
> the tank (if any) isn't available. But if I'm there... Let me do my
> job. Don't take the beating for me. Don't make it so we *both* have
> to be healed by a bystander, instead of you keeping me alive. And
> for God's sake, don't stand between me and the mob so I can't get
> close enough to hit it--especially if one of us is a large race.
/Sigh
Speaking as a necromancer and sometimes shaman, nine times out of ten
when I see the things you are complaining about, its the warrior at
fault. He forgot to use his taunt button. He carelessy pulls a half
dozen mobs. He prioritizes beating on the blue that's down to just a
sliver over the red nasty beating down his healer. He doesn't bother
to target the healer mob himself, so all hell breaks lose when the
casters try to take it down. He's decided to practice with his new
weapon (currently at skill 23) without telling anyone, etc...
As a necro, I always try to avoid meleeing when I'm in a group. Even
if things look safe, you never know when circumstances will change,
especially indoors, and I want to be free to cast. But I make a point
of frequently soloing low blue mobs I can melee for a bit. Why? So I
can get my defense skills up. I must if I want to avoid death while
grouped with a careless tank. And careless tanks make up about 50% of
the tanks playing on any given day.
Sean
me give y'all a little tip:
1) Don't open with venom of the snake (Funny thing is that this works on
ghoul lord)
2) Don't piss the mob off when you're in a group where no one can taunt.
3) Specalize in Alteration -- makes a difference when your getting beat down
and that lifetap hits.
--
Sean S. -:- ICQ: 1826323
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"I tell you, there's nothing we're afraid to nerf. :)" - Brad McQuaid;
Everquest Producer
Kay Anders wrote in message <38F9390E...@red-star.net.hates.spam>...
>Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
>
> - Are you an Enchanter? Wizard? Magician? Necromancer? Then you're
>not a tank. Your job is to cast. I'll let an Enchanter take one hit so
>that their pet will kick in, but after that, step back. I have three
>times your HP and twice your AC, my agility and strength beat yours and
>probably my dexterity, so let me do my job so you can do yours.
>
> - Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid? You make a good backup
>tank--you've got the HP and AC to take a lesser beating in case the tank
>(if any) isn't available. But if I'm there... Let me do my job. Don't
>take the beating for me. Don't make it so we *both* have to be healed
>by a bystander, instead of you keeping me alive. And for God's sake,
>don't stand between me and the mob so I can't get close enough to hit
>it--especially if one of us is a large race.
>
> - Are you a Bard? See above about Clerics, Shamans and Druids, but
>remember that your song gets interrupted when you're hit--and your song
>is your trademark. So chose your tanking time wisely.
>
>- Are you a Monk? Paladin? Shadowknight? Warrior? You're a tank.
>You get to take the beating and enjoy it. That's why we do what we do!
>Most--but not all--of the time, you'll be the puller, so be ready to
>explain to Wizards why pulling the AoF with a nuke (or Cleric/Smite,
>etc) is not always the smartest thing to do. :)
>
>Just don't try to use your Enchanter or Mage to tank. You'll die. And
>if you're a Cleric who's trying to tank while four mobs pound on two
>warriors, we'll *all* die--you'll just die last.
>
>And if you just can't resist stepping up onto the front lines, then do
>what I did...Go make a Warrior so that you can get it out of your
>system. It took me doing that before I honestly realized my Shaman was
>just that--a Shaman.... And NOT a warrior. And now my Shaman is much
>more fun. ;)
>
Dan Harmon
Kay Anders <k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote in message
> I wasn't sure about Rogues, Rangers or Bards, so I didn't include them.
Some
> Rogues are better backup tanks than others, but none *are* tanks; likewise
> Bards. And playing both a Ranger and a Warrior, I'm of the mind that
Rangers
> should be secondary tanks, behind Warriors, Paladins and SK's, but again,
I
> didn't feel edified enough to include it.
Yeah, but if Rangers aren't tanks, what good are they? The only thing I can
think of are as snarers, and caster buffer (kitty feet is nice).
Sergey Dashevskiy
dfra...@email.com says...
> On 17 Apr 2000 08:33:44 GMT, Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>
> |It has been demonstrated that with *melee damage alone* a shaman
> |can tank and kill an ice giant. Thats something most warriors
> |would fine impossible.
>
> Now, how can people say something like that with a straight face and still
> claim that there isn't a severe balance problem between casters and fighters?
Because if you want to have a high level group that gives more
experience than solo, shaman will be playing differently, and about 80%
of the damage will be done by tanks
>
>
> Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
> Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> "You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
> Inner Child and kick its little ass!" -- D. Henley & G. Fry, "Get Over It"
>
--
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|Because if you want to have a high level group that gives more
|experience than solo,
...you'll need to find a server with about 1/3rd the population of the
current ones first.
Sergey Dashevskiy
dfra...@email.com says...
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:05:44 -0400, Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net>
> wrote:
>
> |Because if you want to have a high level group that gives more
> |experience than solo,
>
> ...you'll need to find a server with about 1/3rd the population of the
> current ones first.
No, you just need to take your group to places where not many people
hunt. Of which there are quite a few. The only problem is conviencing a
pickup group to go with you
>
>
> Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
> Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> "You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
> Inner Child and kick its little ass!" -- D. Henley & G. Fry, "Get Over It"
>
--
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|No, you just need to take your group to places where not many people
|hunt.
There are going to be reasons why people don't hunt those places.
JackiePrice
(Ocean of Tears anyone?)
"Dennis Francis Heffernan" <dfra...@email.com> wrote in message
news:5msmfsstr21rfv38c...@4ax.com...
Jerry The Cow
news:5msmfsstr21rfv38c...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:57:13 -0400, Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net>
> wrote:
>
> |No, you just need to take your group to places where not many people
> |hunt.
>
> There are going to be reasons why people don't hunt those places.
Usually, the reason is "Because people are sheep".
No more. No less.
This is not to say there aren't places that absolutely suck. Just
that they aren't usually the places no one goes.
-Manlaven
Sergey Dashevskiy
dfra...@email.com says...
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:57:13 -0400, Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net>
> wrote:
>
> |No, you just need to take your group to places where not many people
> |hunt.
>
> There are going to be reasons why people don't hunt those places.
Like what? There are reasons that centaurs are less camped than Aviaks.
It's great -- I usually have all the spawns except the named one to
myself. Up until recently IGs were not camped on my server. They are
great experience, and respawn obscenely fast, the zone is very close.
Up to recently noone hunted inside Grobb and Oggok, while the experience
and loot are great.
But here's a classic example -- dorfs. They had outstanding loot, very
good experience and were extremely easy to kill. For the longest time
they were not hunted.
D. J. McCarthy
>remember that your song gets interrupted when you're hit--and your song
^^^
>is your trademark. So chose your tanking time wisely.
Not every hit interrupts a song. Just bashes (and maybe slams).
Besides, what else are Bards supposed to do during a battle? Meditate?
Even if a Bard is in turbo-instrument mode, he can still take the one
keystroke it takes to turn on auto-attack before twisting the night away.
Sure, it's only gonna do 6 or less damage a pop, but it's better than
nothing.
--
D. J. McCarthy (remove the obvious to reply) - not speaking for Intel.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|The most common one being its a little out of the way...
|(Ocean of Tears anyone?)
Unless I'm being babysat by an L50 Cleric, you can't PAY me to fight in
OoT.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|"Dennis Francis Heffernan" <dfra...@email.com> wrote in message
|> There are going to be reasons why people don't hunt those places.
|
|Usually, the reason is "Because people are sheep".
I know that's the popular excuse, because we all want to think we're
somehow above the rabble, but the fact is that with the servers this crowded,
if people aren't going to certain areas, it's for a good reason.
Matthew Mc Clement
>
> In article <38fa6...@nntp2.nac.net>, "Angel" <pixierancher@(Remove Me)hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Shamans are not tanks!!!! Does not matter how good your ac is, do you have a
> >tuant button, do you have dual weild, or double attack??? Hmmm you can do
> >100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells? With
> >those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL get
> >group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
> >too?
> >
> >
>
> character played by him is god's gift to EQ. He can do no wrong, and no one
> can change his mind on anything. Don't even try anymore, it's a waste of
> time.
Really? He played a Paladin for quite a while and for a while he was pretty
supportive of Paladins, but then he really started to rip into them, with the
end message that Paladins aren't terrible, but they aren't gods gift either.
Matt
Billy Shields
: Now THERE'S a fantastic misconception. As a level 50 bard, pre buffs I have
: 829ac and with self buffs can raise that by 25ac. We DO have dual weild, we
So in the same ballpark as a shaman.
Dual wield is largely a parlour trick since you don't get a magic
number (like a real tank) and thus don't get the real damage bonus.
The MN/s (magic number/second) for a bard wielding dual ykeshas
is about 10/second. Thats not much better than a shaman with a
much easier to obtain gatorsmash maul.
: DO have a higher dodge cap (parry and riposte at 53 and 58 respectively, you
The higher dodge cap would account for less than 1% difference.
: can check that at any bard guildmaster in the game now) and we DO still sing
: songs while we melee or tank. I hit for 40s on a regular basis and on a nice
So between 2 proccing weapons, dual wielding and singing you are
a major taunt which means a bard gets its ass handed to him on a
platter on a regular basis. Your regen doesn't compare to that of
a shaman and the shaman can regen faster, speed himself up and
slow the monster down *at the same time*.
: hit, will break into the 50s. With a delay of 25 (lessened by the haste of
: the songs we sing) we can do a decent job of taking melee damage and a
: somewhat respectable job of dishing it out all while buffing and enhancing
: the whole party. Not to mention that we have two stackable regen songs and
: attack slowing songs, one of the regen songs also increases str and atk (the
: atk is not from the str, it is a seperate component). Many of our songs do
: NOT require us to use an instrument to get the maximum benifits from. Take
: Verses of Victory for instance, our hallmark 50 song. 30% haste, 30agi,
: 30str and 20ac and it is sung. Billy Shields 2 not understand bards.
One time I remember a bard was in our group killing seafuries (when
it was still worthwhile). She had to go afk so she started singing
the mana song and went afk for an hour. That was awesome. We gained
so much exp. Then she came back, wielded 2 ykeshas and charged
into combat. Sigh, it was much much worse.
The problem with bards is:
1. They have a high exp penalty (same as all the other hybrids: 40%)
2. Singing and attacking with dual wield and 2 proccing weapons is
a major taunt.
3. They cannot take the pain
4. They can only really sing a couple of songs at a time
5. They're sacrificing at least some of their ability to sing some
songs by dual wielding (rather than using instruments)
6. This may sound odd but they're inflexible. The good thing about
spellcasters is that they can give the appropriate buffs to the
appropriate people. Clarity to the casters, speed buffs to the
tanks, etc. With bards its all or nothing. While they're singing
the mana song the tanks aren't getting anything and in doing so
they're not singing some other song.
: Now of course, standing back, I can heal for more, charm extra mobs, or do
: upto 150damage a tick juggling my chant series of dot/debuffs using my selos
: drum. There is a different technique for every situation and sometimes it's
: best just to wade in and get a little dirty. Bards are more than equal to
: the task.
: Oh yeah, and we're faster than you too.
Lucky you.
:> : Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
:>
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|The problem with bards is:
|
|1. They have a high exp penalty (same as all the other hybrids: 40%)
|2. Singing and attacking with dual wield and 2 proccing weapons is
|a major taunt.
|3. They cannot take the pain
|4. They can only really sing a couple of songs at a time
|5. They're sacrificing at least some of their ability to sing some
|songs by dual wielding (rather than using instruments)
|6. This may sound odd but they're inflexible. The good thing about
|spellcasters is that they can give the appropriate buffs to the
|appropriate people. Clarity to the casters, speed buffs to the
|tanks, etc. With bards its all or nothing. While they're singing
|the mana song the tanks aren't getting anything and in doing so
|they're not singing some other song.
7. They're as much a caster as Clerics (and about as much a fighter), but
they don't get Bind.
Billy Shields
: On 18 Apr 2000 01:36:59 GMT, Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote:
: |The problem with bards is:
: |
: |1. They have a high exp penalty (same as all the other hybrids: 40%)
: |2. Singing and attacking with dual wield and 2 proccing weapons is
: |a major taunt.
: |3. They cannot take the pain
: |4. They can only really sing a couple of songs at a time
: |5. They're sacrificing at least some of their ability to sing some
: |songs by dual wielding (rather than using instruments)
: |6. This may sound odd but they're inflexible. The good thing about
: |spellcasters is that they can give the appropriate buffs to the
: |appropriate people. Clarity to the casters, speed buffs to the
: |tanks, etc. With bards its all or nothing. While they're singing
: |the mana song the tanks aren't getting anything and in doing so
: |they're not singing some other song.
: 7. They're as much a caster as Clerics (and about as much a fighter), but
: they don't get Bind.
8. They rely on big groups to be truly useful.
Sam Schlansky
<38fbce81$0$10...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>:
Good stuff here, but you guys are really missing the big picture, the linchpin
of the balancing act.... bard songs suck. They aren't good enough to balance
out the rest of that crap.
Bard mana song should give twice as much mana as clarity, bard haste song
should equal swift like wind. Bard DD song should do 80 damage per tick at
level 50 and be twistable.
I mean, why not? It isn't a one-time cast of a spell, they have to manually
keep the song up, continuously taunting, etc, etc.
Sam
--
/| Sam Schlansky <sam[at]operation3d[dot]com>
/| I speak for myself only unless noted otherwise.
/| PGP Key ID: 0x63A9D707
/| 3DNews.net: News With Perspective!
/| 3DHardware.net: Taking Your Machine To The Third Dimension!
/| Remove "deletethis" to email.
guess away
<dfra...@email.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:47:17 GMT, "Jerry The Cow" <leigh1*@hfx.andara.com>
>wrote:
>
>|"Dennis Francis Heffernan" <dfra...@email.com> wrote in message
>|> There are going to be reasons why people don't hunt those places.
>|
>|Usually, the reason is "Because people are sheep".
>
> I know that's the popular excuse, because we all want to think we're
>somehow above the rabble, but the fact is that with the servers this crowded,
>if people aren't going to certain areas, it's for a good reason.
In this case it's not only popular, it's dead on. If I felt like
ruining the truly great hunting spots at each level, I might tell you
about them. It's up to you to find good places. Most people crowd with
others because they're not adventurous in the least.
Adar
Sam Schlansky <s...@deletethis.operation3d.com> wrote in message
news:8F1AA024vi...@207.126.101.100...
> Bard mana song should give twice as much mana as clarity, bard haste song
> should equal swift like wind. Bard DD song should do 80 damage per tick at
> level 50 and be twistable.
>
Nah, that would make them into gods. As things stand, in the expansion,
they're merely minor deities outdoors, and slightly worse necros indoors.
> Good stuff here, but you guys are really missing the big picture, the
linchpin
> of the balancing act.... bard songs suck. They aren't good enough to
balance
> out the rest of that crap.
>
Two words: Charm II.
(*sound of evil laughter*)
Brudo (E'ci)
Loredaeron (E'ci)
zi...@nb.sympatico.ca
wrote:
>Yeah, but if Rangers aren't tanks, what good are they? The only thing I can
>think of are as snarers, and caster buffer (kitty feet is nice).
>
and if there is a necro in the group Rangers (IMHO) shouldn't snare
either. Necro darkness lasts longer, the necro gets a message when it
wears off to either recast or back off the pet, and it is a dot as
well. Now to get every high level mage on quellious components for any
pet BUT earth
Billy Shields
: On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:04:26 GMT, "Dan Harmon" <deha...@bigfoot.com>
: wrote:
Actually I much prefer the snare line to the darkness line. Its
*cheap*, harder to resist and lasts longer (snare lasts 2-3
minutes whereas the darkness line lasts under a minute). I also
know from playing my necro that I don't even use the higher level
versions of the darkness line. Its clinging darkness (level 4)
all the way: cheap, fast cast and I only really use it to snare.
I use other much harder to resist spells for damage.
Sergey Dashevskiy
dfra...@email.com says...
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:41:50 GMT, "JackiePrice" <nos...@NOSPAM.ca> wrote:
>
> |The most common one being its a little out of the way...
> |(Ocean of Tears anyone?)
>
> Unless I'm being babysat by an L50 Cleric, you can't PAY me to fight in
> OoT.
Too bad for you. There are plenty of mobs there, great experience, very
decent loot, and it's generally not camped.
>
>
> Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
> Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> "You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
> Inner Child and kick its little ass!" -- D. Henley & G. Fry, "Get Over It"
>
--
Sergey Dashevskiy
ran...@opera.iinet.net.au says...
> So between 2 proccing weapons, dual wielding and singing you are
> a major taunt which means a bard gets its ass handed to him on a
> platter on a regular basis.
Hmm, hence, wear decent armor. My bard gets beat on every now and then,
but she can take it. That's what Lambent is for, along with 5 ac rings,
collar, etc. During a pull of 3 dar knights, she tanked 2 of them while
the third one was killed, then she got 2 GH's, and tanked one until the
tanks were killing the other one
> Your regen doesn't compare to that of
> a shaman and the shaman can regen faster, speed himself up and
> slow the monster down *at the same time*.
So can bard, for that matter. It's true that Hymn does not give as much
regeneration as Rage. But it's much higher regeneration than group
chloroplast (+80%), and last I checked they stack
> One time I remember a bard was in our group killing seafuries (when
> it was still worthwhile). She had to go afk so she started singing
> the mana song and went afk for an hour. That was awesome. We gained
> so much exp. Then she came back, wielded 2 ykeshas and charged
> into combat. Sigh, it was much much worse.
Why the hell did she stop singing in combat?! I sing mana song during
downtime (sometimes twisting it with regen song if tanks are hurt); and
sing mana/regen/haste during combat. If there's another player to haste
the tanks, I replace haste with something else useful. At that point,
how can some extra damage bother you? It's not gonna be much, but it
will be there...
>
> The problem with bards is:
>
> 1. They have a high exp penalty (same as all the other hybrids: 40%)
They also reduce your downtime by about 60% if they know what they are
doing
> 2. Singing and attacking with dual wield and 2 proccing weapons is
> a major taunt.
How is it a problem? Get some tanks to taunt.
> 3. They cannot take the pain
Yes, they can, if equipped correctly
> 4. They can only really sing a couple of songs at a time
3-4 to be correct
> 5. They're sacrificing at least some of their ability to sing some
> songs by dual wielding (rather than using instruments)
Most songs from 30-50 are not enhanced by instruments. The ones that are
enhanced are not very commonly used
> 6. This may sound odd but they're inflexible. The good thing about
> spellcasters is that they can give the appropriate buffs to the
> appropriate people. Clarity to the casters, speed buffs to the
> tanks, etc. With bards its all or nothing. While they're singing
> the mana song the tanks aren't getting anything and in doing so
> they're not singing some other song.
That's why they twist songs. It's true that being able to sing only 3
songs at a time is a disadvantage. But remember that:
1. Most of bard buffs combine multiple effects in them
2. Most of bard buffs stack with other classes buffs
3. Most of bard songs are more effective than other classes spells
4. All but 2 songs take no mana, and don't introduce downtime
5. Bards are the only casters that can freely move and fight while
casting
6. Bard songs are not interrupted with damage, ever. Only stuns
> : Oh yeah, and we're faster than you too.
>
> Lucky you.
Yup. That I am.
Sergey Dashevskiy
ran...@opera.iinet.net.au says...> : |The problem with bards is:
> : |
> : |1. They have a high exp penalty (same as all the other hybrids: 40%)
> : |a major taunt.
> : |3. They cannot take the pain
> : |4. They can only really sing a couple of songs at a time
> : |5. They're sacrificing at least some of their ability to sing some
> : |songs by dual wielding (rather than using instruments)
> : |spellcasters is that they can give the appropriate buffs to the
> : |appropriate people. Clarity to the casters, speed buffs to the
> : |tanks, etc. With bards its all or nothing. While they're singing
> : |the mana song the tanks aren't getting anything and in doing so
> : |they're not singing some other song.
>
> : they don't get Bind.
> 8. They rely on big groups to be truly useful.
Not really... They can solo if they so wish. I was grouping with one
ranger to kill spectres for great experience. I also grouped with just
one enchanter to kill same specs. True, I was doing things differently
than in a full groups -- there were no group buffs going on in a 2
people group at most times, but we were still very effective. Show me
one other class that can pair up with a ranger for *non-stop* spectre
killing. There are very few, bard is one of them
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|Too bad for you. There are plenty of mobs there, great experience, very
|decent loot, and it's generally not camped.
...and corpse recovery FROM HELL when you die!
Of course, that's not an issue for a caster, which is why they're pretty
much the only ones you see out there.
Sergey Dashevskiy
dfra...@email.com says...
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:00:31 -0400, Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net>
> wrote:
>
> |Too bad for you. There are plenty of mobs there, great experience, very
> |decent loot, and it's generally not camped.
>
> ...and corpse recovery FROM HELL when you die!
Why would you die? 20-30 minute corpse recovery is not that bad, if you
don't die often. The experience you can get there compared to more
accessible places will cover for the difference. Besides, casters can
bind there...
>
> Of course, that's not an issue for a caster, which is why they're pretty
> much the only ones you see out there.
My bard was there for seafuries and dino. My shaman was there for aviaks
>
>
> Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
> Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> "You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
> Inner Child and kick its little ass!" -- D. Henley & G. Fry, "Get Over It"
>
--
Ben Pocock
<xi...@tcimet.net> wrote:
>In article <43cnfs0j4h1kb5c50...@4ax.com>,
>dfra...@email.com says...
>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:41:50 GMT, "JackiePrice" <nos...@NOSPAM.ca> wrote:
>>
>> |The most common one being its a little out of the way...
>> |(Ocean of Tears anyone?)
>>
>> Unless I'm being babysat by an L50 Cleric, you can't PAY me to fight in
>> OoT.
>
>Too bad for you. There are plenty of mobs there, great experience, very
>decent loot, and it's generally not camped.
And if you are a melee type, you have a REAL long haul to get your
body if you die. I've spent over 50 minutes getting my body from
there. Missing the boat really sucks when you are naked.
There is always a reason people don't fight at a given place when the
servers are this crowded. Most of the places are bad because:
1) Melee types have a real hard time getting there and/or retreiving
their corpse due to shitty bind spots.
2) The spawns require a large group of people to take down.
Now, OOT is a good place for casters to solo a bit. There are also a
couple spots you can fight in relative safety. And of course, as long
as you have a level 29+ cleric with you, it's not so bad.
Mark A. Rimer
news:38FA5417...@red-star.net.hates.spam...
> And backstab mobs for up to 180 points at higher levels. Get two rogues
in the
> group backstabbing--especially with a tank or two, or a monk--and you'll
have
> some mighty fast victories indeed. :)
Thanks, Kay...best group I was ever in for exp was at level 32.
UTR, Cazic Thule.
32 Rogue, 32 Rogue, 31 Rogue, 33 Monk, 30 Shaman, 32 Enchanter.
Early in the morning, and LTR wasn't camped. Monk would pull,
then fight with the rogues. With no-one over level 33, we pulled UTR
and LTR for about 5 hours. The shaman almost never had to heal
anyone, simply because the lizzies dies so durn quick. Ever see a
protector with 1800 hps get kicked and backstabbed 3 times? Every
one knew how to use the assist command, and the 'chanter was great at
messing. Every single person in the group leveled at least once, and the
'chanter and myself dinged twice (both were very close to level, anyways).
Simply put, we killed things so fast that healers (that weren't stunned)
didn't
have time to heal, or were interrupted very often. Pure melee Mobs couldn't
decide who to hit. We pulled constantly, and rarely saw anyone in the team
get below 80-85% health. The two casters never got below 70% mana,
except the shaman, who was bored of not casting any spells and started
fully buffing everyone with dex and somesuch. We didn't even need a snarer,
because there were a total of 5 Serrated Bone Dirks in the rogues' hands,
and with our DEX procs were common. It may not have been the "perfect"
group for some folks...but we were all pretty happy with it.
Sergey Dashevskiy
says...
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:00:31 -0400, Sergey Dashevskiy
> <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <43cnfs0j4h1kb5c50...@4ax.com>,
> >dfra...@email.com says...
> >> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:41:50 GMT, "JackiePrice" <nos...@NOSPAM.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> |The most common one being its a little out of the way...
> >> |(Ocean of Tears anyone?)
> >>
> >> Unless I'm being babysat by an L50 Cleric, you can't PAY me to fight in
> >> OoT.
> >
> >Too bad for you. There are plenty of mobs there, great experience, very
> >decent loot, and it's generally not camped.
>
> And if you are a melee type, you have a REAL long haul to get your
> body if you die. I've spent over 50 minutes getting my body from
> there. Missing the boat really sucks when you are naked.
Yes it does. But in a decent group you pretty much never die outdoors.
When my bard was hunting seafuries there, we had no deaths in our group
for the 4 days that we were there. Casters didn't even bother binding
there.
> There is always a reason people don't fight at a given place when the
> servers are this crowded. Most of the places are bad because:
> 1) Melee types have a real hard time getting there and/or retreiving
> their corpse due to shitty bind spots.
> 2) The spawns require a large group of people to take down.
Not really. Aviak island is great for solo or small groups. At lower
levels, aqua gobs are very nice for groups of 2. At higher levels
there's the dorf and sisters on the sister island (depending on how evil
you are), and seafuries for solo people/small groups. The Dino doesn't
require full groups either
>
> Now, OOT is a good place for casters to solo a bit. There are also a
> couple spots you can fight in relative safety. And of course, as long
> as you have a level 29+ cleric with you, it's not so bad.
Haven't seen many clerics there. Most of the clerics (at least on Povar)
hang around Guk where they can enjoy their nukes :)
Sergey Dashevskiy
@midsouth.rr.com says...
> Kay Anders <k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote in message
> news:38FA5417...@red-star.net.hates.spam...
> > And backstab mobs for up to 180 points at higher levels. Get two rogues
> in the
> > group backstabbing--especially with a tank or two, or a monk--and you'll
> have
> > some mighty fast victories indeed. :)
>
> Thanks, Kay...best group I was ever in for exp was at level 32.
>
> UTR, Cazic Thule.
>
> 32 Rogue, 32 Rogue, 31 Rogue, 33 Monk, 30 Shaman, 32 Enchanter.
Awesome group. Last time I remember myself in a similar group (it had 2
rogues and monk), it was scary how fast things were dying. Due to
constant pulls the chanter couldn't keep the haste on them, so I was
singing haste. It was obscene. The funnier part was that we didn't have
anyone with snare, as when the mobs turned to run they would get 2
backstabs and die
>
> Early in the morning, and LTR wasn't camped. Monk would pull,
> then fight with the rogues. With no-one over level 33, we pulled UTR
> and LTR for about 5 hours. The shaman almost never had to heal
> anyone, simply because the lizzies dies so durn quick. Ever see a
> protector with 1800 hps get kicked and backstabbed 3 times? Every
> one knew how to use the assist command, and the 'chanter was great at
> messing. Every single person in the group leveled at least once, and the
> 'chanter and myself dinged twice (both were very close to level, anyways).
>
> Simply put, we killed things so fast that healers (that weren't stunned)
> didn't
> have time to heal, or were interrupted very often. Pure melee Mobs couldn't
> decide who to hit. We pulled constantly, and rarely saw anyone in the team
> get below 80-85% health. The two casters never got below 70% mana,
> except the shaman, who was bored of not casting any spells and started
> fully buffing everyone with dex and somesuch. We didn't even need a snarer,
> because there were a total of 5 Serrated Bone Dirks in the rogues' hands,
> and with our DEX procs were common. It may not have been the "perfect"
> group for some folks...but we were all pretty happy with it.
>
>
>
--
Morgan
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:00:31 -0400, Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net>
> wrote:
>
> |Too bad for you. There are plenty of mobs there, great experience, very
> |decent loot, and it's generally not camped.
>
>
> much the only ones you see out there.
I bind on the docks in Freeport when fighting in the Ocean of Tears.
(I have this vision of my corpse being camped by a sea furry.)
It's really not that bad. The one time I died, I just waited for the
boat and sailed out to get my body. It would have been even easier
if the Cleric hadn't been evaced out.
--
Morgan
Xymarra, High Elf Enchanter on E'Ci
(crossposting all posts to rec.games.computer.everquest)
Ben Pocock
<xi...@tcimet.net> wrote:
>> And if you are a melee type, you have a REAL long haul to get your
>> body if you die. I've spent over 50 minutes getting my body from
>> there. Missing the boat really sucks when you are naked.
>
>Yes it does. But in a decent group you pretty much never die outdoors.
>When my bard was hunting seafuries there, we had no deaths in our group
>for the 4 days that we were there. Casters didn't even bother binding
>there.
We are obviously talking different levels and spawns here :-). But, if
you are a low twenties person looking for something to fight, most
places that are NOT camped are not camped for a reason.
Higher levels, it really depends. You have to remember that it can be
somewhat of a pain to find these spots. For instance, it can take even
a druid up to 40 minutes to find out if a spot in OOT is open. It's
also not a great place to end up being by yourself.
>> There is always a reason people don't fight at a given place when the
>> servers are this crowded. Most of the places are bad because:
>> 1) Melee types have a real hard time getting there and/or retreiving
>> their corpse due to shitty bind spots.
>> 2) The spawns require a large group of people to take down.
>
>Not really. Aviak island is great for solo or small groups. At lower
>levels, aqua gobs are very nice for groups of 2. At higher levels
>there's the dorf and sisters on the sister island (depending on how evil
>you are), and seafuries for solo people/small groups. The Dino doesn't
>require full groups either
Actually, I hunted AI for 2 levels with my level 22 mage. It totally
stunk. I would NEVER recommend going there as a melee character. If
you are the right level to get any half decent experience (level 20 or
so in a 3 person group) you can get killed. This is from experience.
The seafuries are usually camped to some degree, as is the Dino. At
least, most of the times I check it is. Sister island isn't really an
option for most people (or shouldn't be). When you get to the camping
seafuries or Dino level for exp, you probably aren't in the position
where you will die.
>> Now, OOT is a good place for casters to solo a bit. There are also a
>> couple spots you can fight in relative safety. And of course, as long
>> as you have a level 29+ cleric with you, it's not so bad.
>
>Haven't seen many clerics there. Most of the clerics (at least on Povar)
>hang around Guk where they can enjoy their nukes :)
Dang I like my undead dd line of spells :-).
I still say anything that is good to camp for experience or loot is
camped now. There are places you can still go, but there are reasons
people don't go there. I love Upper Guk, and am completely up for
fighting there level 20-25. With a good group, it's excellent exp and
not bad coin. I've rarely been able to hunt there. Too brutal a
location for most melee types to show up and get good at the dungeon.
I've been to every zone in the game... and I do think that a lot of
zones were poorly thought out. For instance, up to level 12 it's hard
to get a large party organized to head out 30 minutes from any bind
point; not because of death but because you end up training skills and
running to the bank every thirty minutes in desperate in need of cash,
spells, armor, and skills (unless of course you are twinked). Having
large spawns of level 9 MOBs in North Karanas requiring a large party
of level 8-10's to get experience is rather stupid IMHO. Perhaps
replace them with a large band of trolls.
I don't think most zones need a complete overhaul, just a change of
one or two spawn spots. Let me give some examples:
Lake Rathe - everyone going in there is level 16 - 24. I RARELY see
any of the other spawns camped. Replace the Orc camp with a nice
little troll camp level 16 - 20 level spawns. Replace the bandit camp
with an undead camp with drybones, icebones and the very occasional
giant skelly. Suddenly this zone can support up to 12 more players.
Getting bored sharing your aviak guard spawn... group up with a couple
others who are also looking to fight in the zone and go take a camp.
OOT - replace AI with some giant aviak skeletons or something. Make
the undead level 27 - 36. Replace those darn weenie level 8 aqua
goblins with some goblin lords or something (level 30 - 35). There,
now you have a good draw for people with spawns that are rarely used.
Upper Guk - Add a bind point in South Ro and make the froggies in
various areas spawn at a more similar level (ie, so you aren't pressed
with greenies that will run instantly while fighting yellows). Take
out a couple random patrols or reduce the number of spawns in a given
area slightly. Problem solved. If Upper Guk was actually a good place
to fight, it would really solve the problem of high teens - low
twenties having a hard time fighting.
Najena - Reduce the number of casters in a room and add a few more
warrior type MOBs. Increase the spawn rate to 6M. Add a few more TT in
the first part. Those dumb skellies and ogre guards are just
pointless.
Lavastorm - add a couple camps of level 17 - 20 MOBs.
Kithicor - change the daytime spawns to the same level as the nightime
spawns. Maybe they aren't undead... but still make them badboys. Of
course, I didn't like the revamp of Kithicor since it was a very
important travel route for those that can't teleport or invis
themselves.
North Karanas - change the bandit camps along the river to something
high teens low twenties.
Anyone who has played the game knows that level 1 - 15 is extremely
easy. Lots of places to go hunt those levels, lots of creatures, and
you level quickly.
Sang K. Choe
>On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:04:26 GMT, "Dan Harmon" <deha...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Yeah, but if Rangers aren't tanks, what good are they? The only thing I can
>>think of are as snarers, and caster buffer (kitty feet is nice).
>>
>
>and if there is a necro in the group Rangers (IMHO) shouldn't snare
>either. Necro darkness lasts longer, the necro gets a message when it
>wears off to either recast or back off the pet, and it is a dot as
>well. Now to get every high level mage on quellious components for any
>pet BUT earth
Nope. Even with a necro, the ranger/druid should be snaring.
Snare costs 15 mana and lasts 3 mins (tested it recently).
Ensnare costs 35 mana and on white/blue cons lasts *11* mins (again, a
recent test--they've "fixed" ensnare recently so this is a welcome
change...although, unless you're med kiting snare is still more than
effective).
Dooming Darkness lasts about 2 mins and costs 120 mana. Engulfing
darkness costs 60 mana but only lasts about 1 min.
If snare is resisted, it's trivial to recast--I can recast it half a
dozen times and not see any change in my mana bar. You try that with
Dooming Darkness and you'll lose a significant chunk of your mana.
The darkness line is a terrible dot (lousy mana/damage ratio) so the
only real reason to cast it is the slowdown effect--for which
snare/ensnare is far more efficient.
And yes, you get the message that snare has worn off just like any
other DoT message.
Infact, on the druid board, this issue was hashed a few days back
(after Gordo posted that a necro's darkness is preferred since snare
can "break"--goes to show you how much Gordo really knows about this
game...). There is no convincing reason to have a necro darkness a
runner if a ranger/druid is in the group--the only reason is if the
necro is significantly higher level than the ranger/druid, making his
darkness less likely to be resisted. But even this has to be quite
significant since given the 8:1 mana cost ratio of dooming darkness
vs. snare.
-- Sang.
JackiePrice
>
> Of course, that's not an issue for a caster, which is why they're pretty
> much the only ones you see out there.
>
Nah. I fought in OOT a lot with both my monk and my ranger. Gotten a lot
of experience out there. I died once with my ranger on seafury isle while
fighting Wiltin, but being bound on the docks in East Freeport, I got back
out there and tried again before he despawned (less than 15 minutes) and got
my leggings...
JackiePrice
> rogues and monk), it was scary how fast things were dying. Due to
> constant pulls the chanter couldn't keep the haste on them, so I was
> singing haste. It was obscene. The funnier part was that we didn't have
> anyone with snare, as when the mobs turned to run they would get 2
> backstabs and die
You're a bard. You can snare....
JackiePrice
> least, most of the times I check it is. Sister island isn't really an
> option for most people (or shouldn't be). When you get to the camping
> seafuries or Dino level for exp, you probably aren't in the position
> where you will die.
Seafury isle is never camped to the point where you run out of Cyclopses.
There seem to be about 12 spawns on that island that respawn within 5
minutes after being killed, not to mention Gornit who is on a 2 minute
respawn timer. Seafury Isle supports 3 full separate groups level 40+
without waiting for spawns, constant fighting.
The Allizewsaur is camped frequently, but this is a level 50 mob that has
15k+hp and takes longer to kill than it does to respawn (about a 30 second
respawn rate.) Generally, you do have downtime after killing him.
Theoretically, you could take every other spawn with a second group and not
miss much...
abatt...@netscape.net
>> 32 Rogue, 32 Rogue, 31 Rogue, 33 Monk, 30 Shaman, 32 Enchanter.
> Awesome group. Last time I remember myself in a similar group (it had 2
> rogues and monk), it was scary how fast things were dying. Due to
even scarier was a group i was in shortly after paw was revamped the first
time...
35 monk 33 monk 27 monk 30 shaman (me) 32 shaman and a 33 mage.
with two shamans casting quickness on the monks, and swinging gatorsmash
mauls, along with the mage's pet with quickness (before dual wield patch), it
was simply mind boggling how fast the gnolls in there died. fights were
shorter than the three druid one shaman BB dorf group i was in had. a tesch
mal gnoll would last all of 10 seconds. :)
--
josh
Jared Thompson
razor)
Kay Anders <k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote in message
news:38FA5417...@red-star.net.hates.spam...
> And backstab mobs for up to 180 points at higher levels. Get two rogues
in the
> group backstabbing--especially with a tank or two, or a monk--and you'll
have
> some mighty fast victories indeed. :)
>
> Ameer wrote:
>
> > Rogues are suppose to just steal the items off something being killed by
a
> > group (ex. Deathfist Belt off a Orc Centaurian in the Commons).
> > "Mark A. Rimer" <mri...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:vslK4.50925$Uz3.5...@typhoon.midsouth.rr.com...
> > > Kay Anders <k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote in message
> > > news:38F9390E.42ED4765@red-> - Are you an Enchanter? Wizard?
Magician?
> > > Necromancer?
> > > > - Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid?
> > > > - Are you a Bard?
> > > > - Are you a Monk? Paladin? Shadowknight? Warrior?
> > >
> > > What about rogues?
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > >
>
Jared Thompson
than monks will at Level 50...using the Fear shield and full indico armor my
warrior has over 1000 AC..this is with AC earrings, rings, necklace mask
everything AC...1080 ac is about my max fully buffed, lets just say I can
solo hill giants now :) Ice giants own me though
JackiePrice <nos...@NOSPAM.ca> wrote in message
news:qfEK4.35025$2D6.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Monks are awesome tanks. (and yes, I mean damage absorption, not
> > > offensively).
> >
> > Oups, sorry
> >
> > >
> > > But you are right anyway, dual weild and double attack does not make
one
> a
> > > tank...just not sure why monks are listed there.
> >
> > Haven't grouped with many monks at high levels, and when I did there
> > would usually be a warrior to do the main tanking. So that's why I
> > didn't know
>
> Common misconception, because monks have lousy hit points. I'll repost
here
> what I posted in another thread, just fyi.
>
> (reposted)
>
> Monks take melee damage far better than Paladins or Shadowknights. Monks
> get hit so little that they will outlast either of those, despite having
> less hit points.
>
> With warriors and monks its a toss up.
>
> As a general rule, here is when you don't want a monk absorbing your
damage.
>
> 1) The mob is an ubermob substantially tougher than its level would
> indicate, or is quite a number of levels higher than the monk. In those
> situations the monk will not evade enough, and get hit for so much damage
> when they do get hit that their low hit points will not last long.
>
> 2) Casters are involved. Monks have little resistance to magic, and low
hit
> point totals. Since their superb defensive skills (best defense ability
in
> the game by far) are useless against magic spells, monks fall fast to that
> NPC wizard.
>
> Here is when a monk shines as a tank, usually doing better than an
> equivalently levelled warrior.
>
> 1) The damage dealing mobs are primarily melee combatants, and are either
> even with the monk or within 2 or 3 levels higher. In these cases, monks
> will be very efficient at reducing damage being taken, helping out the
> clerics a lot, but not substantially more so than a warrior. The lower
hit
> points of the monk means its more dangerous to do, but no less efficient
if
> at all.
>
> 2) The damage dealing mobs are primarily melee combatants, and are all
blue
> or high green cons. In this scenario the monk shines supreme. A monk
> simply doesn't get hit by green cons. A level 40+ monk can stand in upper
> guk or runnyeye and just let mobs beat on them and will be regenerating
> health naturally as fast as they are taking damage. A warrior came with
my
> monk into runnyeye once to hit all the named spawns quick and fast, maybe
> pull out a couple nice low level items for sale (after all, runnyeye is
> always empty anyway.) He was higher level than me, we were both in our
low
> 40's. He almost died, because of the sheer numbers hitting him. He got
hit
> a LOT. Sure, they never hit for full damage, and frequently for almost
> nothing, but they usually hit him. I just did not get hit. With my mend
> skill I could heal damage faster than the goblins could do it. The same
> holds true for most blue cons, monks take less damage by far from melee
> combat than warriors. If you are fighting a constant stream of blues,
> forget having the warrior taunt...the monk takes the damage better, and
will
> be more efficient.
>
>
zi...@nb.sympatico.ca
wrote:
>
>Actually I much prefer the snare line to the darkness line. Its
>*cheap*, harder to resist and lasts longer (snare lasts 2-3
>minutes whereas the darkness line lasts under a minute). I also
>know from playing my necro that I don't even use the higher level
>versions of the darkness line. Its clinging darkness (level 4)
>all the way: cheap, fast cast and I only really use it to snare.
>I use other much harder to resist spells for damage.
Actually I have been using dooming(29) it slows more than snare and in
my experience lasts longer. Got onto the kick of using it when in
Nag's lair and after a few groups either the snarer wasn't or not
telling me on resists, or there was no snarer.In bugs/bats things died
before darkness wore off except when the *expletive deleted* mages
refused to use anything other than earth. That and rangers dont NEED
to know when snare wears out in a dungeoun the pet classes knowig that
is essential
zi...@nb.sympatico.ca
being the one sending the pet in and potentially causing the train o
death I NEED to know before i see something turn and run that snare
has broken and have not grouped with a snarer yet that has given that
or resit info . Nor have I had darkness run out in a group setting.
The Only thing that is currently resisting more than one cast of
darken are the east freeport guard but I am soloing them so no
biggie. ( yes I know there are more efficient ways of soloing them i
just don't wanna)
Kay Anders
> Clerics can tank. They just don't do it very well. About the
> only time my cleric tanks is when grouped with a bunch of
> finger-wagglers. At that point, the cleric does have the best
> armor and hit points.
>
> But as soon as a melee type shows up the cleric needs to shift
> back into mana management mode and only melee when it is the
> most efficient use of her time.
Clerics, Shaman, Rogues and Druids--and to a point, Bards--are all fine "pinch
tanks." (Meaning in a pinch, they can take that job.) It's one of their best
assets, and if I'm the only tank-type in a group of pure casters, I'll gladly add
one of the above so the group has a damage sponge in case I lag out or die.
The Clerics I *don't* like are the ones who think they *are* tanks--or tank-mages,
rather. They see themselves as being tanks who can heal themselves. Nuh-uh. So I
cringe when I'm down to two bubbles of health and dropping fast, and I see the
Cleric meleeing instead of helping me stay alive (especially if I ask for a heal
and hear them say "OOM").
Likewise, I wince when they insist on pulling (usually before the rest of us are
ready) and then intentinally Smite the hell out of the mob so it's nearly
impossible for me to keep it taunted. I know that Defense is a very important
skill, but when the healer dies, everyone else is next.
(It seems to me that a lot of people in the game are frustrated Tanks at heart who
haven't realized it yet--I know I was for a long time.)
OTOH, last night, I heard the sweetest words I've ever heard from a Cleric...
"Thanks for letting me join your group, guys. I hope you don't mind if I just
focus on healing and buffs, my melee sucks." He did just that, *always* letting us
know what his mana was, never meleeing if there was danger--he'd meditate
instead--and if there wasn't and he had mana to spare, he'd jump in and melee once
the mob was pissed at the tanks, just to give his skills a boost.
We fought everything from one blue caiman at a time to two very red DBS's *and* a
yellow DW caiman (gotta love trains), and we didn't have a single death. The
Paladin kept himself healed sometimes, but his ability to do so was limited; the
Cleric kept the whole group alive. (Actually, we did have one death--the Cleric
went AFK to grab food and got smooshed by an SG!)
When we were disbanding for the night, I told the Cleric he could group with me
anytime, anyplace. Dream Cleric, IMO :)
Kay Anders
pullers. One added benefit is that if they've got a pet up, that basically adds
a DoT to the round... Enchanter pulls with a non-damage spell (like a debuff or
the Tash line, or by mezing the mob next to it), mob hits Enchanter once, pet
defends Enchanter, mob immediately turns on pet while Enchanter backs up and
tanks and damage-dealers step in.
Works like a charm in the right situation :)
Kay Anders
trying to twist songs, and I think I've gotten that confused with songs being
stopped via bash/slam/stun.
Sean Kennedy wrote:
> <rak...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dcodv$48b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > - Are you a Bard? See above about Clerics, Shamans and Druids, but
> > > remember that your song gets interrupted when you're hit--and your
> > song
> > > is your trademark. So chose your tanking time wisely.
>
> Ahem, Bard songs only get interrupted on a successful bash/slam/stun
> not by getting hit. You are right however, bards simply can't take the
> punishment at higher levels to even think of tanking.
Kay Anders
damage to a mob that's beating on a tank. :> And if there's no Warrior, Paly
or SK, they make very fine tanks for a group--I just am not sure (due to lack of
experience) whether they'd be as *preferable* for a main tank as a W, P or SK.
And as for a secondary tank--ie someone to take some abuse, or to be main tank
if you lose your W, P or SK--they rock... That I *do* know. :)
But I'm still learning about that class, so... We'll see.
(The irony? My main grouping partner when I first entered EQ was a Ranger. He
and my Shaman hunted together a good while, but despite that and despite
*playing* a Ranger, I still feel like I don't know that much about the class.
Of course my Ranger is a "fun-only" character, so I've made no effort to get her
past 10. :) )
Dan Harmon wrote:
> Kay Anders <k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote in message
> news:38FA53D4...@red-star.net.hates.spam...
> > I wasn't sure about Rogues, Rangers or Bards, so I didn't include them.
> Some
> > Rogues are better backup tanks than others, but none *are* tanks; likewise
> > Bards. And playing both a Ranger and a Warrior, I'm of the mind that
> Rangers
> > should be secondary tanks, behind Warriors, Paladins and SK's, but again,
> I
> > didn't feel edified enough to include it.
Kay Anders
> Between rage, alacrity, togor, chloro and a pet a shaman can tank
> pretty darn well. With melee damage alone in this scenario they
> can iill some things a pure tank couldn't hope to. I know a 50
> shaman who has an AC of ~835. Thats good enough to take the pain
> on most things.
Well... They can put alacrity, chloro, etc. on themselves and then use DoT's and
their pet to bring down a mob in similar time to a tank... Or they can put those
spells on the tank, sic a DoT and their pet on the mob, and then stand back and
watch the steel fly and the mob drop faster.
And if you're in a group, a Shaman should be putting those things on the tank
*first,* themselves after that.
Kay Anders
there... Shaman are a whole other beast at your level, but at lower levels,
they need to let the Warriors, Pally's and SK's tank.
Put you beside a level 50 warrior, and we'll see... Put a level 20-25 Shaman
beside a Warrior of the same level and, regen aside, the Warrior is still the
better tank.
Alasdair Allan wrote:
> Kay Anders wrote in message <38F9390E...@red-star.net.hates.spam>...
> >Speaking as a Warrior (and Shaman and Enchanter)...
> >
> > - Are you an Enchanter? Wizard? Magician? Necromancer? Then you're
> >not a tank. Your job is to cast. I'll let an Enchanter take one hit so
> >that their pet will kick in, but after that, step back. I have three
> >times your HP and twice your AC, my agility and strength beat yours and
> >probably my dexterity, so let me do my job so you can do yours.
> >
> > - Are you a Cleric? Shaman? Druid? You make a good backup
> >tank--you've got the HP and AC to take a lesser beating in case the tank
> >(if any) isn't available. But if I'm there... Let me do my job. Don't
> >take the beating for me. Don't make it so we *both* have to be healed
> >by a bystander, instead of you keeping me alive. And for God's sake,
> >don't stand between me and the mob so I can't get close enough to hit
> >it--especially if one of us is a large race.
>
> When I get my Rune Etched BP and if I ever get round to getting my
> Polished Mithril Mask, my AC will be 872 with Resolution and Shield of
> Words (or about 850 self buffed) and I can regenerate health at a rate of
> 45hps per tick.
>
> Now tell me I don't make a better damage absorber.
>
> (Of course there are other problems to Shamantanks - but the above
> generalisation is not right).
>
> --
> Regards,
> Alasdair
Kay Anders
the dungeon than in it. Good luck getting his big green ass pass Bandl
safely. (I know, he can try to skirt the agro range by going up the wall, but
c'mon. It's a PITA to have to bind in Qeynos, run through the Hills dodging
guards and NPC's, then hope that Armis is out for a jog once you land in
Everfrost.)
Jerry The Cow wrote:
> "Dennis Francis Heffernan" <dfra...@email.com> wrote in message
> news:5msmfsstr21rfv38c...@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:57:13 -0400, Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > |No, you just need to take your group to places where not many people
> > |hunt.
> >
> > There are going to be reasons why people don't hunt those places.
>
> Usually, the reason is "Because people are sheep".
> No more. No less.
>
> This is not to say there aren't places that absolutely suck. Just
> that they aren't usually the places no one goes.
>
> -Manlaven
Kay Anders
of the word).
Then again, I'm biased. :)
Kay "Insomniac" Anders
Eric Harding wrote:
> In article <38fa6...@nntp2.nac.net>, "Angel" <pixierancher@(Remove Me)hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Shamans are not tanks!!!! Does not matter how good your ac is, do you have a
> >tuant button, do you have dual weild, or double attack??? Hmmm you can do
> >100 damage with your hammer, or you can do thousands with your spells? With
> >those buffs a real tank will have 1000+ ac. Casters who try to tank WILL get
> >group memebers killed. Who are trying to compare your damage absorbesion
> >too?
> >
> >
>
> You are fogetting one thing: Alasdair thinks that the shaman class, and any
> character played by him is god's gift to EQ. He can do no wrong, and no one
> can change his mind on anything. Don't even try anymore, it's a waste of
> time.
>
> Eric
Kay Anders
> > Casters who try to tank WILL get
> > group memebers killed.
>
> No, not a shaman that knows what he's doing
Speaking only for myself, I think of casters as pure casters, the others as
priests (Druid, Shaman, Cleric) or hybrids. With that in mind, pure casters who
try to tank will at LEAST get themselves killed, and priests who try are
dramatically increasing the group's risk factor.
Kay Anders
mida...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <38F9390E...@red-star.net.hates.spam>,
> k...@red-star.net.remove.this.part wrote:
> <snip opening post>
> /Sigh
>
> Speaking as a necromancer and sometimes shaman, nine times out of ten
> when I see the things you are complaining about, its the warrior at
> fault. He forgot to use his taunt button. He carelessy pulls a half
> dozen mobs. He prioritizes beating on the blue that's down to just a
> sliver over the red nasty beating down his healer. He doesn't bother
> to target the healer mob himself, so all hell breaks lose when the
> casters try to take it down. He's decided to practice with his new
> weapon (currently at skill 23) without telling anyone, etc...
I'm a newly level 15 warrior who learned everything I know from Warriors
who are now level 22 and 37. All my major skills (Taunt, 1hs, 2hs,
Offense, Defense) max out within an hour of me leveling, and my newer (DW,
DA, Piercing) are building rapidly. In time, they'll be maxing out within
a few hours of leveling as well. Only Bash looks like it'll take a while
to be Mastered.
I *always* have Taunt ready. If the mob is only on me, I push it every
time it comes up. If it's turning on our healers, I keep it until I need
it. I also have Beg hotkeyed in case I need that grasping-at-straws taunt
it can, once in a while, be.
But this past weekend, while playing my Warrior, here is what I
encountered, with no exaggerations..
- An Enchanter who openly said he would tank, and would like to. When the
group said "No," he pulled anyway.
- A Druid who'd toniced his way to 14 and decided to be the tank so he
could build up his melee skills. Since he was our only healer much of the
time, none of us--especially us two tanks--were comfortable with this.
- A Shaman who did not enter combat, but while I was down to 2 bubbles of
health and facing a ghoul (red to us), the Shaman cast Turtle Skin on
himself, then proceeded to just stand around. A moment later I said, "I
could really use a heal," and he replied, "Well, I could really use some
mana," as if it was my fault he was OOM. (I had no buffs on me, and had
yet to recieve a heal from him.) Ends up he (in his own words) "looked out
for #1 first," and--I am not twisting this--said he would ALWAYS buff
himself first, then heal others second, no matter what the situation.
- A Rogue who would go and pull, bringing back one or two yellows and be
down to 2 bubbles of health. (Oddly enough, this wound up working for our
group, but that's another story. However, it is far from advisable.)
- A Paladin who did not know how to tank, who would spend as much time
soloing and pulling without warning as he would helping the group, and who,
when our Necromancer gently prodded him to do some healing after a bad
fight, healed her (4 bubbles of health) instead of me (2 bubbles of
health). He also said about three lines to the group in four hours of
healing, one of which was, "Sorry, no mana."
- A Shaman (different one) who would rather tank than heal me. (This is
common.)
- A Druid who didn't want to cast Damage Shields on the tank(s). (This is
also common; many Druids seem to think that putting a DS--or any buff--on a
tank is a waste of mana. If you're fighting a blue, it might be, but if
you're against something tougher, it's not. My Troll has a heat resist of
5, yet I had a Druid I was grouped with refuse to put a +sv heat buff on
him while fighting casting madmen in the desert. She even tried to
convince me Druids didn't get that spell [it's a level 1 Druid spell].)
- A Rogue (different one) who would pull Dervs by running into the camp,
getting one, letting it beat on him until two more spawned, then run
screaming back to the group with them. Keep in mind this was in a group
with a Tank. (Why they let him do that, I'll never know.)
(What really irked me was when one of the caster/priests--can't remember
which--started pulling [without warning] using a DoT and then followed up
with a nuke, to make it nearly impossible for me to Taunt the mob off
quickly.)
Luckily, I managed to get grouped with some really great people as well,
including a Druid who also has a high level warrior and knew how to work
with tanks... A Cleric who was perfectly happy to be a healer first,
buffer second, and do melee third, as mana allowed... A Necromancer who
had studied her craft and knew the right times to use her pet or not to,
and when the healer was OOM, wouldn't hesitate to give me some of her
health... A really *great* Rogue who knew just how much he could take, and
just how to give his best damage...
But the people above are all cases where no matter how much I used Taunt,
it wasn't going to make the players know how to play their class. I've
said it before, I think a LOT of people in EQ are frustrated tanks in
caster/priest bodies, and they just haven't realized it yet.
> As a necro, I always try to avoid meleeing when I'm in a group. Even
> if things look safe, you never know when circumstances will change,
> especially indoors, and I want to be free to cast. But I make a point
> of frequently soloing low blue mobs I can melee for a bit. Why? So I
> can get my defense skills up. I must if I want to avoid death while
> grouped with a careless tank. And careless tanks make up about 50% of
> the tanks playing on any given day.
I have zero problem with casters/priests or whoever meleeing to get their
offense & melee skills up... So long, natch, as you still have enough mana
to do your job. And it's expected that mobs are going to turn on
casters/priests at times; that's why it *is* important for you to raise
Defense.
But if you want to tank to get defense up, solo blues, go duel someone, or
form a tankless group. My JOB as a tank is to keep everyone safe and take
hits--damage dealing is secondary. If you won't let me do that, then
you're taking away my raison d'etre, and I'm about as useful (and happy) as
a Cleric who'll only bind wounds.
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Kay Anders
> Kay Anders wrote in message <38F9390E...@red-star.net.hates.spam>...
> > - Are you a Bard? See above about Clerics, Shamans and Druids, but
> >remember that your song gets interrupted when you're hit--and your song
>
> ^^^
> >is your trademark. So chose your tanking time wisely.
>
> Not every hit interrupts a song. Just bashes (and maybe slams).
My bad on that, per my earlier post.
> Besides, what else are Bards supposed to do during a battle? Meditate?
Sing and melee. Tanking doesn't mean dealing damage; it means taking it, and
Warriors are better at that than a Bard is, hands down.
> Even if a Bard is in turbo-instrument mode, he can still take the one
> keystroke it takes to turn on auto-attack before twisting the night away.
> Sure, it's only gonna do 6 or less damage a pop, but it's better than
> nothing.
> --
> D. J. McCarthy (remove the obvious to reply) - not speaking for Intel.
JackiePrice
"Jared Thompson" <ctho...@bscn.com> wrote in message
news:38fd...@news.bscn.com...
> im sure that warrior wasnt an AC warrior, AC warriors will have higher ac
> than monks will at Level 50...using the Fear shield and full indico armor
my
> warrior has over 1000 AC..this is with AC earrings, rings, necklace mask
> everything AC...1080 ac is about my max fully buffed, lets just say I can
> solo hill giants now :) Ice giants own me though
It doesn't matter what their AC is, he was all AC though.
The difference is the TYPE of AC.
AC from armor is Damage Mitigation AC. It doesn't stop you from getting
hit, it reduces damage from hits. Warriors have the best of this.
Monks do not have much Damage Mitigation AC. Monks AC (usually around 1020
fully buffed at level 50) is almost 90% Damage Avoidance AC, but it also
functions as Damage Mitigation AC. Damage Avoidance AC stops you from
getting hit. Nobody can compete with monks in this area.
What most people forget is monks get double the AC bonus from their defense
skill, and almost everyone knows that defense skill makes a much bigger
difference than AC equipment, due to different types of AC and different
effect.
Sergey Dashevskiy
nos...@NOSPAM.ca says...
> > Awesome group. Last time I remember myself in a similar group (it had 2
> > rogues and monk), it was scary how fast things were dying. Due to
> > singing haste. It was obscene. The funnier part was that we didn't have
> > anyone with snare, as when the mobs turned to run they would get 2
> > backstabs and die
>
> You're a bard. You can snare....
My bard was lower level than the rest of the group. Most mobs were red
to me. Bard's snare is overly resisted even by high blue mobs, due to
dual effect of our snare. So it was not quite an option for me at the
moment
Sergey Dashevskiy
star.net.hates.spam says...
> My bad. :) I still am getting a lot of "Missed notes" with my bard while
> trying to twist songs, and I think I've gotten that confused with songs being
> stopped via bash/slam/stun.
To help with that, try to get your dex over 100, as well as your
charisma. That helped me somewhat. It's also dependent on your
singing/instrument skill, but those are very easy to cap (most except
brass)
>
> Sean Kennedy wrote:
>
> > <rak...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dcodv$48b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > - Are you a Bard? See above about Clerics, Shamans and Druids, but
> > > > remember that your song gets interrupted when you're hit--and your
> > > song
> > > > is your trademark. So chose your tanking time wisely.
> >
> > Ahem, Bard songs only get interrupted on a successful bash/slam/stun
> > not by getting hit. You are right however, bards simply can't take the
> > punishment at higher levels to even think of tanking.
>
>
--
Sang K. Choe
>being the one sending the pet in and potentially causing the train o
>death I NEED to know before i see something turn and run that snare
>has broken and have not grouped with a snarer yet that has given that
>or resit info .
If the snarer is half way competent, the mob will always be snared
before it attempts to run. Even if the druid/ranger has to stand
there and chain cast snare from beginning to end.
When I'm in the group, folks know that the mob in question will be
snared, period (unless said mob is impossible to snare aka stone
spider, clockwork EXG in SolA, et. al.)
The only time I don't bother with snare is in Kedge--since nothing in
there seems to want to run.
Here's another reason why you don't want to use darkness over snare:
I can snare a messed critter without breaking mes. You cannot
darkness a messed critter without breaking mes.
-- Sang.
zi...@nb.sympatico.ca
<sa...@choenet.com.remove.this.com> wrote:
>If the snarer is half way competent, the mob will always be snared
>before it attempts to run. Even if the druid/ranger has to stand
>there and chain cast snare from beginning to end.
>
>When I'm in the group, folks know that the mob in question will be
>snared, period (unless said mob is impossible to snare aka stone
>spider, clockwork EXG in SolA, et. al.)
>
>The only time I don't bother with snare is in Kedge--since nothing in
>there seems to want to run.
>
>Here's another reason why you don't want to use darkness over snare:
>I can snare a messed critter without breaking mes. You cannot
>darkness a messed critter without breaking mes.
>
>-- Sang.
If it is mezzes then it isn't going to be running and my pet won't be
attacking it
mida...@my-deja.com
Yeah, I've seen all that, too.
I was just pointing out that warriors _at least_ as prone to this stuff
as anyone else.
Sang K. Choe
>If it is mezzes then it isn't going to be running and my pet won't be
>attacking it
True, but when you have a bunch of mobs messed, it's nice to snare the
whole lot and park your ass down for a bit. Now that ensnare lasts
well over 10 mins, I can ensnare every critter and not worry about
runners (unless there's a necro darknessing or a root casting moron or
a ranger who is still using that stupid ebony-train-making sword).
-- Sang.
zi...@nb.sympatico.ca
Or a Mage with an abcdefghjklmnopqrstuvwxyzing earth pet