Fiery Avenger - Nice joke brad.
Rahan Trueknight
First i want to congrats Drool, musk , Qhue and other ppl on
tunare...
Nice job... well about he FA now.
2 books from Naggy and vox, that dont always drop hmm thanks
Brad, you just created a race to dragons for Uberguild, IMO there is
more paladins in little guild that big one. That's just plain suck.
The Story of Migarul is nice. The Quest just SUCK (9 months for that).
Raising Faction with EVIL race, get lotto in 2 dragons
and win both (its when you can go into a dragon raid).
They spend more than 20k+ just to get the Inte on the 4th island
to get this sword... hmmm
This weapon is a joke brad. go read the paladin message board:
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfieryavengerknowledgepool
Read all the messages about the disapointed paladins.
The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and another weapon
outdamage the FA anytime. Its probably just the best 2H sword, but
Paladin WEAR 1H weapon. (I wonder why we got so much shield)
The BB Hammer still far better also.
Personnally i wanted a weapon 1H to replace the level 30 Ghoulbane
not a very stupid rare sword.
Paladins got screwed again.
Naggy and Vox got killed each 7 days, maybe they drop the books
1 times each 3 kills.
So its like 18 FA - MAX in the next year... If the guys win BOTH lotto.
Oh yeah i will stick with my GB forever i guess.
Why someone at Verant cant do a nice funny Quest that ppl can enjoy
and put some fun in this game of camping and farming items...
Rahan Trueknight
48th Paladin of Norrath
Mithaniel Marr
Sergey Dashevskiy
col...@sympatico.ca says...
> Hello,
> First i want to congrats Drool, musk , Qhue and other ppl on
> tunare...
> Nice job... well about he FA now.
Hell yeah. Pity that it looks like Soulfire. Not that it's a very common
thing, but if I put that much effort (and my guild's effort) into a
weapon, I'd like it to not look like something else. Oh well, big deal
> 2 books from Naggy and vox, that dont always drop hmm thanks
> Brad, you just created a race to dragons for Uberguild, IMO there is
> more paladins in little guild that big one. That's just plain suck.
You didn't expect the quest to have all its parts accessible solo, did
you? It's the biggest holy sword, I'd be really surprized if the quest
didn't require dragon loot
> This weapon is a joke brad. go read the paladin message board:
> http://pub3.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfieryavengerknowledgepool
>
> Read all the messages about the disapointed paladins.
I'm not very surprised. A lot of people wanted this sword, and a lot of
people do. Some wanted it to the point of making it a reason to start a
paladin even. But it's THE Holy Sword. Intention was to have maximum of
a few per server
>
> The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
> 110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
> I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and another weapon
> outdamage the FA anytime.
Correct, that's a warrior. I'd imagine a 50th rogue will outdamage any
paladin with just a pair of SBDs (which are mid-low level weapons)
> Its probably just the best 2H sword, but
> Paladin WEAR 1H weapon. (I wonder why we got so much shield)
That is totally true. It really should have been a one hander. A holy
sword without the holy knight view (sword and shield)
Paul Phillips
Okay it's not all that over powering.
Paul
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
iro...@hotmail.com
The game is static, I remember reading somewhere that the world would be
dynamic, ya right. Wow, I can't wait to see how they screw up star wars,
can just see the line up now to kill darth so and so.
Rahan Trueknight wrote:
> Hello,
> First i want to congrats Drool, musk , Qhue and other ppl on
> tunare...
> Nice job... well about he FA now.
>
> 2 books from Naggy and vox, that dont always drop hmm thanks
> Brad, you just created a race to dragons for Uberguild, IMO there is
> more paladins in little guild that big one. That's just plain suck.
>
> The Story of Migarul is nice. The Quest just SUCK (9 months for that).
> Raising Faction with EVIL race, get lotto in 2 dragons
> and win both (its when you can go into a dragon raid).
> They spend more than 20k+ just to get the Inte on the 4th island
> to get this sword... hmmm
>
> This weapon is a joke brad. go read the paladin message board:
> http://pub3.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfieryavengerknowledgepool
>
> Read all the messages about the disapointed paladins.
>
> The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
> 110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
> I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and another weapon
> outdamage the FA anytime. Its probably just the best 2H sword, but
> Paladin WEAR 1H weapon. (I wonder why we got so much shield)
> The BB Hammer still far better also.
>
> Personnally i wanted a weapon 1H to replace the level 30 Ghoulbane
> not a very stupid rare sword.
>
> Paladins got screwed again.
>
bal...@my-deja.com
You don't have to raise any evil faction to do the quest.
In article <PgvA4.1122$qh2....@wagner.videotron.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Rahan Trueknight
You need to get them together, in neriak i think. (im maybe wrong).
Else you need faction with oracle. Or you need to trust an enchanter....
And i dont know any personal enchanter friend that i can really trust.
Rahan
<bal...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8au97o$5br$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Heartguard+
Rahan Trueknight <col...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:I1yA4.1293$qh2....@wagner.videotron.net...
> If you want to complete the quest by yourself (the 2 book part)
> You need to get them together, in neriak i think. (im maybe wrong).
> Else you need faction with oracle. Or you need to trust an enchanter....
>
> And i dont know any personal enchanter friend that i can really trust.
>
Then this sword is not for you. There is no way that you can do this quest
without trusting a friend.
Ray Grant
Daniel F. McHargue wrote:
>
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:58:38 -0500, "Rahan Trueknight"
> <col...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
> >110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
> >I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and another weapon
> >outdamage the FA anytime.
>
> Snipped the rest of the rant, just wanted to interject a little on
> these 2 points:
>
> 110 general damage isn't that big a deal compared to 162 anti-undead?
> You never hunt anywhere other than Lower Guk? How much damage does
> GB's proc do to non-undead? How many other weapons have a DD proc
> that does more damage?
I agree, this a seems correct relative damage considering the
increased scope of targets (read: everything...) for a Sword
of this caliber.
> Plus, you're upset that a Warrior with the best Planar weapons can
> outdamage a Paladin with FA? You mean, a Paladin with the best
> Paladin sword in the game should be superior to a Warrior with the
> best Warrior weapons in the game? Are you implying that Paladins are
> ultimately supposed to have more melee damage capability than any
> other class?
Again, I have to agree, to have a semblance of a conscious
here... A Warrior must still be the best Tank, its ALL they
do, A Warrior isnt ever going to get Greater Heal for cripes
sake... much less Superior Heal, etc.
> So, Paladins get the shaft with Fiery Avenger because (A) its proc
> does less than Ghoulbane versus Undead and (B) it doesn't make
> Paladins superior meleers than Warriors.
>
> Yep, you got shafted.
We didnt, of course. Paladins get a great Sword that allows
them to do damn good Melee damage, in my opinion.
bmitchell
paladin holy sword, that people have been wanting this whole time, and now
that it's here, people complain... Everyday I am amazed at the stupidity I
read from other EQ players... but I find myself reading more and more
everyday :) it's kinda addicting.
Anyways, *when* I become level 50, and find the "ultimate bard weapon"
(since all the classes supposedly have one), I hope someone will slap me if
I complain about it.
--
Lorel
9th Bard
Druzzil Ro
"I'm not level 9 because I'm new, it's because can't figure out what to
play. Although if you add up all my characters' levels from the past year,
it'll equal 100 or so."
"Rahan Trueknight" <col...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:PgvA4.1122$qh2....@wagner.videotron.net...
> Hello,
> First i want to congrats Drool, musk , Qhue and other ppl on
> tunare...
> Nice job... well about he FA now.
>
> 2 books from Naggy and vox, that dont always drop hmm thanks
> Brad, you just created a race to dragons for Uberguild, IMO there is
> more paladins in little guild that big one. That's just plain suck.
>
> The Story of Migarul is nice. The Quest just SUCK (9 months for that).
> Raising Faction with EVIL race, get lotto in 2 dragons
> and win both (its when you can go into a dragon raid).
> They spend more than 20k+ just to get the Inte on the 4th island
> to get this sword... hmmm
>
> This weapon is a joke brad. go read the paladin message board:
> http://pub3.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfieryavengerknowledgepool
>
> Read all the messages about the disapointed paladins.
>
> The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
> 110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
> I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and another weapon
Daniel F. McHargue
<col...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
>110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
>I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and another weapon
>outdamage the FA anytime.
Snipped the rest of the rant, just wanted to interject a little on
these 2 points:
110 general damage isn't that big a deal compared to 162 anti-undead?
You never hunt anywhere other than Lower Guk? How much damage does
GB's proc do to non-undead? How many other weapons have a DD proc
that does more damage?
Plus, you're upset that a Warrior with the best Planar weapons can
outdamage a Paladin with FA? You mean, a Paladin with the best
Paladin sword in the game should be superior to a Warrior with the
best Warrior weapons in the game? Are you implying that Paladins are
ultimately supposed to have more melee damage capability than any
other class?
So, Paladins get the shaft with Fiery Avenger because (A) its proc
does less than Ghoulbane versus Undead and (B) it doesn't make
Paladins superior meleers than Warriors.
Yep, you got shafted.
D
Sang K. Choe
<jbro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Rahan Trueknight <col...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:I1yA4.1293$qh2....@wagner.videotron.net...
>> If you want to complete the quest by yourself (the 2 book part)
>> You need to get them together, in neriak i think. (im maybe wrong).
>> Else you need faction with oracle. Or you need to trust an enchanter....
>>
>> And i dont know any personal enchanter friend that i can really trust.
>>
>
>Then this sword is not for you. There is no way that you can do this quest
>without trusting a friend.
Hell, there's no way to do this quest by yourself, period. You need
faction with the Eurdite paladins and faction with the nits in
Paineel. How are you going to raise faction in both without going
completely apeshit?
That doesn't even account for the fact that no way in hell anyone is
soloing the "live" version of that necro in EF caves.
-- Sang.
Sam Schlansky
<PgvA4.1122$qh2....@wagner.videotron.net>:
>Hello,
>First i want to congrats Drool, musk , Qhue and other
>ppl on tunare...
Yeah, congrats guys!
>Nice job... well about he FA now.
>
>2 books from Naggy and vox, that dont always drop hmm thanks
>Brad, you just created a race to dragons for Uberguild, IMO there
>is more paladins in little guild that big one. That's just plain
>suck.
I couldn't agree more. At the very least these books should each be a
100% drop AND not count as a "loot" item from dragons.
As it stands, the quest isn't doable unless you're in the very top
Uberguild on your respective server. You need:
1) Soulfire (doable by one or two groups, fine)
2) Ghoulbane (doable by one group, fine)
3) The ability to get to island 4 in Sky (not doable by 80% of
servers PERIOD, and only by the Uberguilds even then)
4) The ability to kill one of verant's standard ubermonsters (easily
doable by four groups of 50's, fine)
5) Not only the ability to kill both Nag and Vox, but to loot a rare-
drop book off of EACH ONE.
Numbers three and five are the real problems here. Quite frankly,
while the fiery avenger is probably in the top five weapons in the
game right now, it simply isn't obtainable if you aren't in an
Uberguild. Not only must your guild be able to kill a dragon, you
must be able to kill BOTH dragons multiple times to get both books...
and then you have to be able to get to island four in the Plane of
Sky. That just ain't right.
>The Story of Migarul is nice. The Quest just SUCK (9 months for
>that). Raising Faction with EVIL race,
Nah, you can get that part done in-character... have a "good"
enchanter loot the books, thats all.
>get lotto in 2 dragons
>and win both (its when you can go into a dragon raid).
>They spend more than 20k+ just to get the Inte on the 4th island
>to get this sword... hmmm
20k is an exaggeration, but yes, it is quite expensive. That's not a
major problem though.
>This weapon is a joke brad. go read the paladin message board:
>http://pub3.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfieryavengerknowledgepool
>
>Read all the messages about the disapointed paladins.
>
>The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
>110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
>I wonder why you said that.
I disagree. A 110 DD proc is probably the fourth-best proc currently
in the game. The best is soul leech, by quite a margin, followed by
the Axe of the Slayers' Rampage proc, followed by Bloodfire's boil
blood.
Well, the butcherblock hammer is better... but that's an artifact. :)
>A warrior with a claw and another weapon outdamage the FA anytime.
I dunno. The fiery avenger is 33/44, that's a 0.75 ratio... really no
other 2-handed weapon even comes close to that. The best you can get
below FA is 0.70.
Of course there's the ashenbone warhammer, but as far as I know it
doesn't exist. If anyone on any server can prove that they have one,
I'd sure like to see it.
Admittedly dualwielding two nice fast weapons like the spined dragon
claws and bloodfire (or claws+briarzephyr) puts out a ridiculous
amount of melee damage... but 33/44 is pretty damn good!
>Its probably just the best 2H sword,
It is.
>but Paladin WEAR 1H weapon. (I wonder why we got so much shield)
Is english your first language? You're from Canada.... nevermind.
Anyway, yes. That's a real problem. Paladins need bash. Most paladins
will continue using a sprinkler+bladestopper or a sprinkler+shield of
the stalwart seas over the FA, and that's a real shame.
>The BB Hammer still far better also.
That's an artifact. It doesn't count.
>Personnally i wanted a weapon 1H to replace the level 30 Ghoulbane
>not a very stupid rare sword.
So get a sprinkler.
>Paladins got screwed again.
>
>Naggy and Vox got killed each 7 days, maybe they drop the books
>1 times each 3 kills.
>So its like 18 FA - MAX in the next year... If the guys win BOTH
>lotto.
Yup... well... they drop the books fairly regularly (we had vox drop
TWO books on rathe supposedly) but they aren't guaranteed. :(
Plus, servers go down constantly, lest we forget.
>Oh yeah i will stick with my GB forever i guess.
Or a sprinkler, if you can manage to get one... they've really
reduced the drop rates on em. That's one awesome weapon right there.
>Why someone at Verant cant do a nice funny Quest that ppl can
>enjoy and put some fun in this game of camping and farming
>items...
Funny? Huh?
The FA quest is just "okay". It's nothing special, it's nothing awe-
inspiring, and it's VERY VERY hard. It's literally impossible for 99%
of paladins to do, if they aren't in an Uberguild.
That's your problem. The defining blade for the paladin class should
be doable by everybody. It should take a very long time. It should
take an enormous amount of effort. It should be very expensive and
require massive sacrifice. But it SHOULD BE DOABLE.
And once you get it, it should be one-handed.
Sam
--
/| Sam Schlansky <sam[at]operation3d[dot]com>
/| I speak for myself only unless noted otherwise.
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Sam Schlansky
<38d2e...@oracle.zianet.com>:
>OMG! I can't believe people are whining about this. This is the
>ultimate paladin holy sword, that people have been wanting this
>whole time, and now that it's here, people complain... Everyday I
>am amazed at the stupidity I read from other EQ players... but I
>find myself reading more and more everyday :) it's kinda
>addicting.
Isn't it, though?
>Anyways, *when* I become level 50, and find the "ultimate bard
>weapon" (since all the classes supposedly have one), I hope
>someone will slap me if I complain about it.
(snip)
That's bullshit, every class does NOT have an "ultimate weapon",
unless you count the sky quests. There are *no* hidden quests for
every class for an Uberweapon, just like the FA quest was *not* in
the game a month ago, just like Brad's green splinted platemail was
never in the game. They just added the quest, period.
And when you reach the lofty level 50 from your current level 9 and
find out that the "ultimate bard weapon" is only theoretically
acheivable by the biggest guild on your server... and you're not in
that guild...
Don't complain. Cause I'll slap ya.
If I'm still here, which is doubtful.
Alasdair Allan
>> First i want to congrats Drool, musk , Qhue and other ppl on
>> tunare...
>
>thing, but if I put that much effort (and my guild's effort) into a
>weapon, I'd like it to not look like something else. Oh well, big deal
It was always going to have the Soul Fire graphic. But to be 2h, thats a
joke.
>> 2 books from Naggy and vox, that dont always drop hmm thanks
>> Brad, you just created a race to dragons for Uberguild, IMO there is
>> more paladins in little guild that big one. That's just plain suck.
>
>You didn't expect the quest to have all its parts accessible solo, did
>you? It's the biggest holy sword, I'd be really surprized if the quest
>didn't require dragon loot
No, Shug, its a sick, sick joke. It really is beyond my Ken that someone
like McQuaid who has expressed his angst over this things that can be
wrong with MUDs, yet at every turn he simply re-inforces the problems.
If *anything* typifies the problem with this game, it is the Fiery
Avenger. I'm sorry, I DONT FUCKING CARE about this rareity crap. Make it
rare, fine. THE PROBLEM IS THE FUCKER IS NOT ACCESSABLE TO ANYONE WHO
ISNT IN A GUILD WITH 80+ LEVEL 50s. THAT IS FUCKED UP RIGHT THERE.
--
Alasdair Allan
I want my MSIN back!
Alasdair Allan
>col...@sympatico.ca (Rahan Trueknight) wrote >
>Funny? Huh?
>
>The FA quest is just "okay". It's nothing special, it's nothing awe-
>inspiring, and it's VERY VERY hard. It's literally impossible for 99%
>of paladins to do, if they aren't in an Uberguild.
>
>That's your problem. The defining blade for the paladin class should
>be doable by everybody. It should take a very long time. It should
>take an enormous amount of effort. It should be very expensive and
>require massive sacrifice. But it SHOULD BE DOABLE.
>
>And once you get it, it should be one-handed.
You know, you know how I feel having read how this quest has turned out?
I feel, what's the fucking point?
Seriously, its beyond a fucking joke. What is hte point of Everquest. We
know there is no end. No-one cares. But you have a *GOAL*, an aim, an
expectation.
But what happens when the goal is made unachievable.
What happens when all you see is everything that you would find worthy as
a goal is made so damn pointlessly elite, that there is no way anyone who
does not spend 24/7 playing a main character and sets out purposely to
become a highheidyin of an Uberguild has a shot of achieving that goal?
All that it becomes is a great big chat room. I don't want a great big
chat room. I want an RPG, I want something that lets me create a Mythos
of Character *on my own* with a *limited circle of chosen friends* not by
sucking up to the biggest waste of space, unemployed, control-freak wanker
who can manage an Uberguild.
I don't want that. Gimme back the vision *I* have, the chance to do
things on my own or with *my* friends. Gimme back my fucking dreams
Verant, you're killing any enjoyment I have.
Its a huge fucking joke, this FA outcome is more than dis-appointing. Its
crushing.
Richard Kuo
<postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>No, Shug, its a sick, sick joke. It really is beyond my Ken that someone
>like McQuaid who has expressed his angst over this things that can be
>wrong with MUDs, yet at every turn he simply re-inforces the problems.
>
>If *anything* typifies the problem with this game, it is the Fiery
>Avenger. I'm sorry, I DONT FUCKING CARE about this rareity crap. Make it
>rare, fine. THE PROBLEM IS THE FUCKER IS NOT ACCESSABLE TO ANYONE WHO
>ISNT IN A GUILD WITH 80+ LEVEL 50s. THAT IS FUCKED UP RIGHT THERE.
More precisely, it's only accessible to the most respected and
well-liked paladins on any server. People with more friends and more
connections will always get more than you. That's just a fact of
life.
The FA is better than most god weapons. It's not going to be
obtainable with a 6 man group.
============================================
Visit The Silicon Edge at:
http://siliconedge.ml.org
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Adar
Richard Kuo <rk...@seas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:38db48ac....@news.beta.giganews.com...
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 06:04:04 -0000, "Alasdair Allan"
> <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >If *anything* typifies the problem with this game, it is the Fiery
> >Avenger. I'm sorry, I DONT FUCKING CARE about this rareity crap. Make
it
> >rare, fine. THE PROBLEM IS THE FUCKER IS NOT ACCESSABLE TO ANYONE WHO
> >ISNT IN A GUILD WITH 80+ LEVEL 50s. THAT IS FUCKED UP RIGHT THERE.
>
> More precisely, it's only accessible to the most respected and
> well-liked paladins on any server. People with more friends and more
> connections will always get more than you. That's just a fact of
> life.
>
Bullshit. Absolute, complete, and utter bullshit.
E'ci is 'the democratic server'. It's the only one in EQ, AFAIK. The
paladins here posted their logs for all to see, freely shared data,
etc...and yet, the person that's going to get the first sword here is not
necessarily the best candidate (or at least a matter for debate.) The second
through 8'th candidates are definitely going to lead to a TON of bitching;
one book, which wasn't needed by the paladin in question, actually decayed
because the other paladins wanted to random for it!
Want to guess who the first 8 paladins to get FA's on Veeshan will be?
> The FA is better than most god weapons. It's not going to be
> obtainable with a 6 man group.
>
It should be- or at least with a 12 man group, or, at LEAST, the components
had to be put on something with a <7 day spawn time!
Instead, on Veeshan and two dozen other servers, the only paladins with the
FA will be in FoH or it's equivalent, the guild half to three quarters of
whose members probably can't get into an R rated movie without an adult.
Greeeaaaaatttt.
Brudo (E'ci)
Loredaeron (E'ci)
Trajan
>Simply Rahan, No one at Verant has the imagination to do a proper quest.
>The game is static, I remember reading somewhere that the world would be
>dynamic, ya right. Wow, I can't wait to see how they screw up star wars,
>can just see the line up now to kill darth so and so.
You are completely right. EQ is NOT dynamic. The only thing truly
dynamic are the constant mood changes of the players.
There are so many simple solutions to taking this game to the next
level. The way the game is going - especially with these new "play
nice" policies, it seems to indicate verant thinks adding more static
"rules" to the universe will make things better - they took a great
concept, and they're slowly running it into the ground.
All is not lost however, Verant has demonstrated the economic
viability of the concept, so others will come along (including myself)
who will produce something much better.
Matt Frisch
McHargue) scribed into the ether:
>On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:58:38 -0500, "Rahan Trueknight"
><col...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
>>110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
>>I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and another weapon
>>outdamage the FA anytime.
>
>Snipped the rest of the rant, just wanted to interject a little on
>these 2 points:
>
>110 general damage isn't that big a deal compared to 162 anti-undead?
>You never hunt anywhere other than Lower Guk? How much damage does
>GB's proc do to non-undead? How many other weapons have a DD proc
>that does more damage?
Barbarian spiritist's hammer. 263 pt cold blast. No quest involved (just
have to kill cazic)
Sam Schlansky
<38d48399...@news.earthlink.net>:
Only shamen can use this weapon. Shamen don't have doubleattack and
rarely if ever melee at the level at which they'd get this weapon.
Richard Kuo
<ad...@spamaway.mindspring.com> wrote:
>> More precisely, it's only accessible to the most respected and
>> well-liked paladins on any server. People with more friends and more
>> connections will always get more than you. That's just a fact of
>> life.
>>
>
>Bullshit. Absolute, complete, and utter bullshit.
>
>E'ci is 'the democratic server'. It's the only one in EQ, AFAIK. The
>paladins here posted their logs for all to see, freely shared data,
>etc...and yet, the person that's going to get the first sword here is not
>necessarily the best candidate (or at least a matter for debate.) The second
>through 8'th candidates are definitely going to lead to a TON of bitching;
>one book, which wasn't needed by the paladin in question, actually decayed
>because the other paladins wanted to random for it!
>
>Want to guess who the first 8 paladins to get FA's on Veeshan will be?
Shrug. I guess my description wasn't quite accurate for your
server. On our server the random only went between a couple of well
known palys and the 2nd book is not randomed at all, but given to
whoever won the other half.
Regardless, the fact stands that people with more friends and
resources will get better items. Some people should consider that,
while not directly stated, part of the questing for something like the
FA is building up the necessary network of friends to take on these
tasks. Help the right people, do things for others that don't benefit
you directly...and eventually you will make enough friends to get
noticed. Paladins probably will not obtain their ultimate weapon
without the approval of a very large number of their peers...and this
really isn't that illogical.
>> The FA is better than most god weapons. It's not going to be
>> obtainable with a 6 man group.
>>
>
>It should be- or at least with a 12 man group, or, at LEAST, the components
>had to be put on something with a <7 day spawn time!
Getting any other god weapon takes a concerted effort of about
8-10 hours by approximately 30 skilled people. It's unlikely that the
FA would be made available to just anyone.
>Instead, on Veeshan and two dozen other servers, the only paladins with the
>FA will be in FoH or it's equivalent, the guild half to three quarters of
>whose members probably can't get into an R rated movie without an adult.
>
>Greeeaaaaatttt.
>
>Brudo (E'ci)
>Loredaeron (E'ci)
>
Matt Frisch
Schlansky) scribed into the ether:
>matu...@yahoo.spam.me.not.com (Matt Frisch) wrote in
><38d48399...@news.earthlink.net>:
>
>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:46:07 GMT, d...@127-0-0-1.wgn.net (Daniel F.
>>McHargue) scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:58:38 -0500, "Rahan Trueknight"
>>><col...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
>>>>110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs
>>>>undead). I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and
>>>>another weapon outdamage the FA anytime.
>>>
>>>Snipped the rest of the rant, just wanted to interject a little
>>>on these 2 points:
>>>
>>>110 general damage isn't that big a deal compared to 162
>>>anti-undead? You never hunt anywhere other than Lower Guk? How
>>>much damage does GB's proc do to non-undead? How many other
>>>weapons have a DD proc that does more damage?
>>
>>Barbarian spiritist's hammer. 263 pt cold blast. No quest involved
>>(just have to kill cazic)
>
>Only shamen can use this weapon. Shamen don't have doubleattack and
>rarely if ever melee at the level at which they'd get this weapon.
Well, smart shamans do, especially if they get that weapon.
And, usefulness on a non melee class aside, its proc does better than
double the fiery avenger, and cold is somewhat less frequently resisted
than fire.
Sam Schlansky
>On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:09:29 GMT, s...@deletethis.operation3d.com
>(Sam Schlansky) scribed into the ether:
>
>>matu...@yahoo.spam.me.not.com (Matt Frisch) wrote in
>><38d48399...@news.earthlink.net>:
>>
>>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:46:07 GMT, d...@127-0-0-1.wgn.net (Daniel
>>>F. McHargue) scribed into the ether:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:58:38 -0500, "Rahan Trueknight"
>>>><col...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
(snip)
>>>>110 general damage isn't that big a deal compared to 162
>>>>anti-undead? You never hunt anywhere other than Lower Guk? How
>>>>much damage does GB's proc do to non-undead? How many other
>>>>weapons have a DD proc that does more damage?
>>>
>>>Barbarian spiritist's hammer. 263 pt cold blast. No quest
>>>involved (just have to kill cazic)
>>
>>Only shamen can use this weapon. Shamen don't have doubleattack
>>and rarely if ever melee at the level at which they'd get this
>>weapon.
>
>Well, smart shamans do, especially if they get that weapon.
Even this (awesome) weapon really doesn't make a lot of difference at the level
at which we get it. I suppose it's neat to have in lower guk or killing
seafuries for XP, but really, at this stage in the game we're all in planes or
killing dragons, where the hammer is more of a liability and a show-off item
them something to really use.
>And, usefulness on a non melee class aside, its proc does better
>than double the fiery avenger, and cold is somewhat less
>frequently resisted than fire.
True enough, your point stands. It is a better proc. Then again, so is soul
leech, which also comes off the Pussy-God-Cazic(tm).
In my opinion, Soul Leech has the best proc in the game, shortly followed by
the Axe of the Slayers (Rampage proc, 150pt damage shield which is essentially
a 150point heal).
DD procs are often resisted, taunt like crazy, and don't really add up to a
huge percentage of your damage overall. Why not have one of these kickass
weapons proc "Illusion: Werewolf"? Now THAT would be a nice proc... +80 ATK, +
26 STR, and a 40% haste that stacks with EVERYTHING.
Can you imagine if one of the sky blades procs illusion werewolf? OMG... now
THAT would be worthwhile... hell, it'd be the coolest proc in the game, right
next to the Mistwalker pre-nerf. Call it the "claws of the lycanthrope" or
something, make it 7/17 proc'ing illusion:werewolf, and NOW you've got yourself
a weapon!
Only thing is it'd have to be no-drop, or all the tanks would hand it off. The
duration (36min) is really too long for a proc, too... change it to 2 minutes
and you're all set with one BADASS weapon. And not just "badass" as in
powerful-- "badass" as in really, really cool.
Want more interesting procs?
1) Damage shields... proc shield of thorns, 24 point shield for a couple of
minutes, or even a lower-level shield for that matter. A proc'ing 16 damage
shield would be amazingly powerful.
2) Invigor... on a weapon which normally is powerful enough not to get a proc,
make it one pound heavier and have it proc invigor. Neat proc, not unbalancing,
just interesting.
3) Drowsy... slows targets' attacks by 22%. It's a level *five* shaman spell,
remember.
4) Malise... reduces cold, fire, poison, and magic resists by 20. A level 19
spell.
5) Listless power... reduces target's agility by 35, str by 35, and AC by 18,
Doesn't do a whole hell of a lot to NPC's, but it probably does SOMETHING...
6) Sagar's Animation... the lvl 24 enchanter pet spell. It's a level 20 pet
that you can't command, and has like crap for HP... but that crap HP will
absorb a hit or two from a mob, and it can even do (some) damage. Make the pet
last... how unbalancing is a level 50 warrior with a level 20 pet anyway? Just
lose the ubertaunt from the mistwalker.
7) Light Healing. Yep, a 35 point self-only heal. This would be about a quarter
as powerful as soul leech... you're not doing damage to the mob and it only
heals half as much... but it would STILL rock.
8) Regeneration. Heals an extra 5HP/tick for around 12 minutes. How unbalancing
would this REALLY be on a no-drop weapon that you get from a god? And how NICE
would it be for a warrior? You could actually run around and hunt rare spawns
with your warrior without hours of downtime... a tasty reward for making 50 and
killing a god, don't you think? It's not like good ol "regeneration" would be
helpful in combat against blues at 50, after all.
How long did it take to think those up? Oh, about a second. They'd make playing
a melee class at 50 MUCH more interesting, dontcha think?
NBarnes
> How long did it take to think those up? Oh, about a second.
> They'd make playing a melee class at 50 MUCH more interesting,
> dontcha think?
I'd like to see some items that actually make a difference for
casters at those levels. What do casters get off gods? Whoop,
most mana and more AC and weapons that we never use because
we're always medding. I'd love to see items that actually made
my spells more effective. In fact, the utter lack of interesting
items at high levels (Verant's item design work is _pathetic_)
is one of the things that's currently pissing me off about EQ.
NBarnes
Billy Shields
: Sam Schlansky wrote:
Gotta agree. In the last few months a token effort has been made
to address this in several areas (like the woefully pathetic
Staff of Temporal Flux and the not-so-pathetic Staff of Elemental
Mastery) but honestly it could have been done so much better from
the start.
You could have items that:
1. Store spell effects (you cast into the item and then click on
it to cast the spell).
2. Make various types of spells cheaper, cast faster, fizzle
less or more effective.
3. Increase your effective skill of any of the spell skills.
4. Make it harder to get interrupted.
5. Make the spells taunt less.
Etc.
If you did do things like taht you'd have to also fix the way items
themselves work. That too is in desperate need of fixing.
As it stands people put items in their inventory and click them as
necessary to use them (eg manastone, jboots). You should have to
wear (or hold) those items to use them (in the very least).
Also, people swap items in as they need them. This leads to poor
man's slam (swapping in a shield to bash and then putting the weapon
back so you don't interrupt your attack), bard's swapping in
instruments to twist with better effect and dual wield at the
same time, etc. You shouldn't be able to swap in items for half
a second to get the effect or benefit.
I hate this sort of feature because it basically turns the game into
one of who has the best connection. On a crappy connection you
can't twist songs at all. That sort of thing should be part of
the interface, not a hotkey trick. You should be able to tell
the game that you're twisting song A and B and it should do it
for you.
Edam
Sam Schlansky <s...@deletethis.operation3d.com> wrote in message
news:8EFCE9FF6vi...@207.126.101.100...
playing
> a melee class at 50 MUCH more interesting, dontcha think?
>
>
> --
>
> /| Sam Schlansky <sam[at]operation3d[dot]com>
> /| I speak for myself only unless noted otherwise.
> /| PGP Key ID: 0x63A9D707
> /| 3DNews.net: News With Perspective!
> /| 3DHardware.net: Taking Your Machine To The Third Dimension!
> /| Remove "deletethis" to email.
Bollocks they chose a melee class, weapons that steal spells from caster
classes is a complete joke as it is. I play an enchanter and you have just
gone through a number of my spells.
How about a weapon to give me another 2000 hps or so then one to proc an atk
increase rating 1000. Sounds comical but that's what is happening with all
these procing weapons, rampage is a Level 39 Enchanter spell and should of
remained Enchanter only. At least with mistwalker they didn't just steal
another class's spell, and rampage is one of our best.
Edam
Who thinks all procing and infinite spell weapons/items should only be given
to the classes that have the spells in the first place.
How about a wand for enchanters that casts clarity with and adds 15 cha when
held, this would be useful as it allows us to free up another spell slot.
And you can do the same for every other casting class.
NBarnes
> I *love* those ideas. Cant imagine it would be that hard to add
> them, then at least warriors (and I think a lot of them should be
> war only) could choose between exe axe and something else at
> intermediate levels. (Only danger would be - "ooh great regen has
> procced, now to switch to my damage shield proccing wep - ah that's
> procced, now for my dd proccing wep etc etc").
That's not too terribly hard. Say you have a Ring of Regeneration.
You put it on, and ten minutes after that you start healing at +2
hp per tick (same as rubi BP). If you take it off, you lose the
regen. If you put it back on, you have to wait another 10 minutes
before the regen kicks back in. That way, you can't just swap it
out without giving up a lot of cumulative healing. Same with
weapons; it procs, but if you take the weapon out, you lose the
effect and have to proc it again if you want it back.
That would be a _great_ item. But it would require _way_ too
much effort for Verant to work out how to implement it, so we'll
just see another boring weapon with another boring DD proc.
Verant's item engineering _sucks_ (one of many things that Verant
is bad at). It's one of the reasons I'm quitting and waiting for
Diablo 2; in D2, items are _interesting_ and important to casters
as well as melee types.
NBarnes
Sam Schlansky
>Sam Schlansky wrote:
>
>> How long did it take to think those up? Oh, about a second.
>> They'd make playing a melee class at 50 MUCH more interesting,
>> dontcha think?
>
> I'd like to see some items that actually make a difference for
>casters at those levels.
Casters get new spells all the way up to 49. Melee classes get two things after
40: Jack and Shit.
>What do casters get off gods? Whoop,
>most mana and more AC and weapons that we never use because
>we're always medding. I'd love to see items that actually made
>my spells more effective. In fact, the utter lack of interesting
>items at high levels (Verant's item design work is _pathetic_)
>is one of the things that's currently pissing me off about EQ.
I'm not saying you don't have a point; there IS a huge dearth of interesting
caster items off gods and dragons... but then again casters don't need em as
badly.
Sam Schlansky
(snip)
>Bollocks they chose a melee class, weapons that steal spells from
>caster classes is a complete joke as it is.
Have you ever played a melee class? You play one of the most fun, if
not THE most fun, class in the game. You have spells that do
EVERYTHING!
You have no idea how boring it is to play a melee class.
>I play an enchanter
>and you have just gone through a number of my spells.
And?
>How about a weapon to give me another 2000 hps or so then one to
>proc an atk increase rating 1000. Sounds comical but that's what
>is happening with all these procing weapons, rampage is a Level 39
>Enchanter spell and should of remained Enchanter only.
Why? How many times have you cast it?
>At least
>with mistwalker they didn't just steal another class's spell, and
>rampage is one of our best.
Fool.
>Who thinks all procing and infinite spell weapons/items should
>only be given to the classes that have the spells in the first
>place.
There's a big difference between a proc and an item with unlimited
right-clickable uses. A HUGE difference.
>How about a wand for enchanters that casts clarity with and adds
>15 cha when held, this would be useful as it allows us to free up
>another spell slot. And you can do the same for every other
>casting class.
Couldn't agree more, that would be very cool.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|Bollocks they chose a melee class, weapons that steal spells from caster
|classes is a complete joke as it is. I play an enchanter and you have just
|gone through a number of my spells.
And your point would be?
|Who thinks all procing and infinite spell weapons/items should only be given
|to the classes that have the spells in the first place.
Try getting used to the idea that casters won't have godlike advantages
over fighters forever.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
Inner Child and kick its little ass!" -- D. Henley & G. Fry, "Get Over It"
NBarnes
> NBarnes wrote:
> >Sam Schlansky wrote:
> >> How long did it take to think those up? Oh, about a second.
> >> They'd make playing a melee class at 50 MUCH more interesting,
> >> dontcha think?
> > I'd like to see some items that actually make a difference for
> >casters at those levels.
> Casters get new spells all the way up to 49. Melee classes get two
> things after 40: Jack and Shit.
True dat.
> >What do casters get off gods? Whoop,
> >most mana and more AC and weapons that we never use because
> >we're always medding. I'd love to see items that actually made
> >my spells more effective. In fact, the utter lack of interesting
> >items at high levels (Verant's item design work is _pathetic_)
> >is one of the things that's currently pissing me off about EQ.
> I'm not saying you don't have a point; there IS a huge dearth of
> interesting caster items off gods and dragons... but then again
> casters don't need em as badly.
There's a huge dearth of interesting caster items, period,
since pretty much _all_ that a caster ever gets is more mana,
more AC, and weapons that you stop using sooner or later. The
reason, I think, that rubi BPs, manastones, and guises are so
valued is that they do _something_ other than the boring
stats'n'AC/ratio that most items gives.
Now, certainly, I agree that melee classes need good and
interesting items, too, since they don't get new spells to keep
things interesting. More than anything else, I'm saying that we're
_all_ screwed, melee and caster alike, by Verant's lack of
creativity in designing EQ's inventory of items.
I agree that melee types need interesting items more, since they
don't get spells, but that's partly a different design issue,
the choice to have melee types stop getting new skills quite
early on. As with so many other of Verant's design decisions,
it's... somewhat questionable.
NBarnes
NBarnes
> >Who thinks all procing and infinite spell weapons/items should
> >only be given to the classes that have the spells in the first
> >place.
> There's a big difference between a proc and an item with unlimited
> right-clickable uses. A HUGE difference.
Or what JBoots (IMHO) should have been: a 15 minute effect,
castable once an hour. You still spend 75% of your time with
no speedy feet, but you get enough to make getting the JBoots
seem like a big benefit (and it is, especially if you save it
for running the hell away, or for when you need to return to
town to sell). More than just being far better balanced than
the current implementation of JBoots, this also allows for,
say, boots that don't speed up as much, but are always in effect,
in addition to the time-limited variety. Wouldn't that be
charming? That way, you'd have to choose.
Damn, man. Choices. In Everquest. You wouldn't have one
approach that's totally more optimal than another rammed down
your throat.
You'd almost think you were playing a game designed by
professionals.
> >How about a wand for enchanters that casts clarity with and adds
> >15 cha when held, this would be useful as it allows us to free up
> >another spell slot. And you can do the same for every other
> >casting class.
> Couldn't agree more, that would be very cool.
This pretty much does exist. It doesn't have any other effects
other than Clarity, but it does let you cast Clarity at will. 30
second cast time, but it's handy. Drops off Innoruuk.
Now, compare this, which is nice but, IMHO, pretty much a parlor
trick, with the Diamond Rod. Wizard-only, 5 _charges_ of Diamondskin,
30 second cast time, also drops off Innoruuk. Someone at Verant
hates burn mages, eh?
NBarnes
Edam
> >caster classes is a complete joke as it is.
>
> not THE most fun, class in the game. You have spells that do
> EVERYTHING!
>
> You have no idea how boring it is to play a melee class.
Actually yes I have played a melee char and there is only one reason why I
gave up on them Bind, and this should be given to melee chrs instantly and I
don't mean allowing casters to bind them. Give them a skill to make a
permanent camp so when they die they go back to this point.
Although I would probably make this outdoors only.
>
> >I play an enchanter
> >and you have just gone through a number of my spells.
>
> And?
Procs can be given without Plagiarizing.
>
> >How about a weapon to give me another 2000 hps or so then one to
> >proc an atk increase rating 1000. Sounds comical but that's what
> >is happening with all these procing weapons, rampage is a Level 39
> >Enchanter spell and should of remained Enchanter only.
>
> Why? How many times have you cast it?
I can use if to effectively heal my pet so shitloads why ?
>
> >At least
> >with mistwalker they didn't just steal another class's spell, and
> >rampage is one of our best.
>
> Fool.
Nope
>
> >Who thinks all procing and infinite spell weapons/items should
> >only be given to the classes that have the spells in the first
> >place.
>
> There's a big difference between a proc and an item with unlimited
> right-clickable uses. A HUGE difference.
Yup there is a huge difference, HUGE, still doesn't mean the creative mind's
at Verant can't come up with something useful without directly Plagiarizing
the casting classes spells. As in the Mistwalker or maybe you just didn't
understand my point first time around.
>
> >How about a wand for enchanters that casts clarity with and adds
> >15 cha when held, this would be useful as it allows us to free up
> >another spell slot. And you can do the same for every other
> >casting class.
>
> Couldn't agree more, that would be very cool.
>
> Sam
It would also make sense.
Actually having thought about it I am surprised you want lots of weapons
that basically rip off the casting classes spells, wouldn't you rather have
you own unique procs.
Monks get an item that procs power of defence, which adds 50 to there block
rating.
Warriors get an item that procs sword mastery which raises there parry by 30
and atk rating by 50.
etc
Edam
Edam
Dennis Francis Heffernan <dfra...@email.com> wrote in message
news:2u3cdsok3hpg1oei1...@4ax.com...
> |classes is a complete joke as it is. I play an enchanter and you have
just
> |gone through a number of my spells.
>
Read my response to Sam and you will find out.
>
> |Who thinks all procing and infinite spell weapons/items should only be
given
> |to the classes that have the spells in the first place.
>
> Try getting used to the idea that casters won't have godlike advantages
> over fighters forever.
>
>
You really truly believe that ? The end game fighting classes are far more
useful than a number of the casting classes.
Sam Schlansky
<38D61FCF...@earthlink.net>:
>Sam Schlansky wrote:
>
>> >Who thinks all procing and infinite spell weapons/items should
>> >only be given to the classes that have the spells in the first
>> >place.
>
>> There's a big difference between a proc and an item with
>> unlimited right-clickable uses. A HUGE difference.
>
> Or what JBoots (IMHO) should have been: a 15 minute effect,
>castable once an hour. You still spend 75% of your time with
>no speedy feet, but you get enough to make getting the JBoots
>seem like a big benefit (and it is, especially if you save it
>for running the hell away, or for when you need to return to
>town to sell). More than just being far better balanced than
>the current implementation of JBoots, this also allows for,
>say, boots that don't speed up as much, but are always in effect,
>in addition to the time-limited variety. Wouldn't that be
>charming? That way, you'd have to choose.
Actually, I disagree, JBoots shouldn't work that way. You know how JBoots
*should* work?
When you have em on, you run fast. When you take em off, you don't.
So, instead of your handy-dandy AC12 crafted boots or your 9 wisdom boots or
whatever, you choose to wear JBoots.
Now THAT actually makes sense.
> Damn, man. Choices. In Everquest. You wouldn't have one
>approach that's totally more optimal than another rammed down
>your throat.
> You'd almost think you were playing a game designed by
>professionals.
I doubt that'll ever happen. :)
>> >How about a wand for enchanters that casts clarity with and
>> >adds 15 cha when held, this would be useful as it allows us to
>> >free up another spell slot. And you can do the same for every
>> >other casting class.
>
>> Couldn't agree more, that would be very cool.
>
> This pretty much does exist. It doesn't have any other effects
>other than Clarity, but it does let you cast Clarity at will. 30
>second cast time, but it's handy. Drops off Innoruuk.
Yeah, but it isn't handy, because it has a 30 second cast time. If it had a
THREE second cast time, it'd be useful. Hell, if it had a TEN second cast time,
it'd be somewhat useful... but thirty? Funk dat. That's crap.
> Now, compare this, which is nice but, IMHO, pretty much a parlor
>trick, with the Diamond Rod. Wizard-only, 5 _charges_ of
>Diamondskin, 30 second cast time, also drops off Innoruuk.
>Someone at Verant hates burn mages, eh?
Nah, both items are worthless. I hear the wizard rod requires the gem to work
too, so I guess it's even more worthless, if that makes you feel any better.
NBarnes
> NBarnes wrote in:
> > Or what JBoots (IMHO) should have been: a 15 minute effect,
> >castable once an hour. You still spend 75% of your time with
> >no speedy feet, but you get enough to make getting the JBoots
> >seem like a big benefit (and it is, especially if you save it
> >for running the hell away, or for when you need to return to
> >town to sell). More than just being far better balanced than
> >the current implementation of JBoots, this also allows for,
> >say, boots that don't speed up as much, but are always in effect,
> >in addition to the time-limited variety. Wouldn't that be
> >charming? That way, you'd have to choose.
> Actually, I disagree, JBoots shouldn't work that way. You know
> how JBoots *should* work?
>
> When you have em on, you run fast. When you take em off, you don't.
>
> So, instead of your handy-dandy AC12 crafted boots or your 9
> wisdom boots or whatever, you choose to wear JBoots.
>
> Now THAT actually makes sense.
Well, for you to be able to use them, you have to be wearing them.
And if you take them off, the effect goes away.
So if you're wanting to use them as an escape method if things go
to heck, then you need to be wearing them all the time. And, yes,
you can take them off when they're not charged up. Makes some
sense to me, I wouldn't be wearing my Seven-League Boots around the
house, either.
Or you could have a version that just made you walk faster. But
when you put them on, it takes ten minutes for them to kick in. And
if you take them off, you lose the effect, until you wear them for
another 10 minutes.
It's little things like that that Verant didn't do that drive me
up the wall. _Simple_ small things, closing up _obvious_ loopholes.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear that nobody who helped design
EQ had ever played a CRPG before.
> > Damn, man. Choices. In Everquest. You wouldn't have one
> >approach that's totally more optimal than another rammed down
> >your throat.
> > You'd almost think you were playing a game designed by
> >professionals.
> I doubt that'll ever happen. :)
Try Diablo II. I'm _good_ at design work (at least, I get paid
a god-awful amount of money for it), but Blizzard is better than
I am. I've read a lot of stuff about what they're doing in it,
and I am _very_ impressed. I'm really looking forward to it.
> > This pretty much does exist. It doesn't have any other effects
> >other than Clarity, but it does let you cast Clarity at will. 30
> >second cast time, but it's handy. Drops off Innoruuk.
> Yeah, but it isn't handy, because it has a 30 second cast time. If
> it had a THREE second cast time, it'd be useful. Hell, if it had
> a TEN second cast time, it'd be somewhat useful... but thirty?
> Funk dat. That's crap.
It's questionable, and, frankly, discouraging that Verant thinks
that that item is a worthy god-drop. That rod should be, frankly,
the common drop off a 40ish mob someplace. But it's _soooooo_
much better than Briarzephyr, in design terms, as to make it
noteworthy. It's a sad commentary when such a margin item as this
is an example of the best design work Verant's done on the item
front.
> > Now, compare this, which is nice but, IMHO, pretty much a parlor
> >trick, with the Diamond Rod. Wizard-only, 5 _charges_ of
> >Diamondskin, 30 second cast time, also drops off Innoruuk.
> >Someone at Verant hates burn mages, eh?
> Nah, both items are worthless. I hear the wizard rod requires the
> gem to work too, so I guess it's even more worthless, if that
> makes you feel any better.
I'm told that the Diamond Rod eating peridots is a bug, actually.
I don't think the Rod of Clear Thought is really quite as bad as
you think it is; certainly, the Diamond Rod is much, much worse.
NBarnes
Rahan Trueknight
not the problem of the FA anyway. Tts that the sword is made for Paladins
in uberguild.
Heartguard+ <jbro...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:oCyA4.10909$Nn6.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> Rahan Trueknight <col...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:I1yA4.1293$qh2....@wagner.videotron.net...
> > If you want to complete the quest by yourself (the 2 book part)
> > You need to get them together, in neriak i think. (im maybe wrong).
> > Else you need faction with oracle. Or you need to trust an enchanter....
> >
> > And i dont know any personal enchanter friend that i can really trust.
> >
>
> Then this sword is not for you. There is no way that you can do this quest
> without trusting a friend.
>
>
Rahan Trueknight
a "impossible quest" (well if we can call that a quest ? - its
almost onyl for big guilds) for a high average weapon.
I dont care if Warrior or Ranger do more damages (they do already).
Its just that the FA is really, but really NOT amazing. And should be
a possible quest.
Rahan
Daniel F. McHargue <d...@127-0-0-1.wgn.net> wrote in message
news:38d2ce95....@news.wgn.net...
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:58:38 -0500, "Rahan Trueknight"
> <col...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >The stat of the FA are NOT amazing (but still very good). (btw
> >110dmg proc is not a big deal when the GB make 162dmg vs undead).
> >I wonder why you said that. A warrior with a claw and another weapon
> >outdamage the FA anytime.
>
> Snipped the rest of the rant, just wanted to interject a little on
> these 2 points:
>
> 110 general damage isn't that big a deal compared to 162 anti-undead?
> You never hunt anywhere other than Lower Guk? How much damage does
> GB's proc do to non-undead? How many other weapons have a DD proc
> that does more damage?
>
> Plus, you're upset that a Warrior with the best Planar weapons can
> outdamage a Paladin with FA? You mean, a Paladin with the best
> Paladin sword in the game should be superior to a Warrior with the
> best Warrior weapons in the game? Are you implying that Paladins are
> ultimately supposed to have more melee damage capability than any
> other class?
>
> So, Paladins get the shaft with Fiery Avenger because (A) its proc
> does less than Ghoulbane versus Undead and (B) it doesn't make
> Paladins superior meleers than Warriors.
>
> Yep, you got shafted.
>
> D
Rahan Trueknight
> col...@sympatico.ca (Rahan Trueknight) wrote in
> <PgvA4.1122$qh2....@wagner.videotron.net>:
>
> I disagree. A 110 DD proc is probably the fourth-best proc currently
> in the game. The best is soul leech, by quite a margin, followed by
> the Axe of the Slayers' Rampage proc, followed by Bloodfire's boil
> blood.
Fluxuate Axe for ranger 150dd proc, is also the, Rainsteal of Karana
hmm i dont remember 2H got a 800AoE damage ? Anyway
110DD is quite good.
> >A warrior with a claw and another weapon outdamage the FA anytime.
>
> I dunno. The fiery avenger is 33/44, that's a 0.75 ratio... really no
> other 2-handed weapon even comes close to that. The best you can get
> below FA is 0.70.
>
> Of course there's the ashenbone warhammer, but as far as I know it
> doesn't exist. If anyone on any server can prove that they have one,
> I'd sure like to see it.
>
> Admittedly dualwielding two nice fast weapons like the spined dragon
> claws and bloodfire (or claws+briarzephyr) puts out a ridiculous
> amount of melee damage... but 33/44 is pretty damn good!
Yeah warrior and ranger do more damage than the FA with planar
weapons. Anyway not a big deal.
> Is english your first language? You're from Canada.... nevermind.
>
Yeah Quebec, Canada, sorry my english is not perfect =)
> Anyway, yes. That's a real problem. Paladins need bash. Most paladins
> will continue using a sprinkler+bladestopper or a sprinkler+shield of
> the stalwart seas over the FA, and that's a real shame.
>
> So get a sprinkler.
> Or a sprinkler, if you can manage to get one... they've really
> reduced the drop rates on em. That's one awesome weapon right there.
They nerfed a lots the drop. I was in hate group last week
No drop in 24hours+...
Rahan
zi...@nb.sympatico.ca
<col...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Even the Fluxtuate Axe for Ranger proc more. Brad just put
>a "impossible quest" (well if we can call that a quest ? - its
>almost onyl for big guilds) for a high average weapon.
>I dont care if Warrior or Ranger do more damages (they do already).
>Its just that the FA is really, but really NOT amazing. And should be
>a possible quest.
>
>Rahan
>
Actually given that it has been done doing it is by definition
possible just highly bloody unlikely
Billy Shields
: Sam Schlansky wrote:
:> NBarnes wrote in:
:> > Or what JBoots (IMHO) should have been: a 15 minute effect,
:> >castable once an hour. You still spend 75% of your time with
:> >no speedy feet, but you get enough to make getting the JBoots
:> >seem like a big benefit (and it is, especially if you save it
:> >for running the hell away, or for when you need to return to
:> >town to sell). More than just being far better balanced than
:> >the current implementation of JBoots, this also allows for,
:> >say, boots that don't speed up as much, but are always in effect,
:> >in addition to the time-limited variety. Wouldn't that be
:> >charming? That way, you'd have to choose.
:> Actually, I disagree, JBoots shouldn't work that way. You know
:> how JBoots *should* work?
:>
:> When you have em on, you run fast. When you take em off, you don't.
:>
:> So, instead of your handy-dandy AC12 crafted boots or your 9
:> wisdom boots or whatever, you choose to wear JBoots.
:>
:> Now THAT actually makes sense.
Couldn't agree with you more, Sam.
: Well, for you to be able to use them, you have to be wearing them.
: And if you take them off, the effect goes away.
: So if you're wanting to use them as an escape method if things go
: to heck, then you need to be wearing them all the time. And, yes,
: you can take them off when they're not charged up. Makes some
: sense to me, I wouldn't be wearing my Seven-League Boots around the
: house, either.
: Or you could have a version that just made you walk faster. But
: when you put them on, it takes ten minutes for them to kick in. And
: if you take them off, you lose the effect, until you wear them for
: another 10 minutes.
I agree. A one or two minute warm-up period would be sufficient
though (imho).
I think manastones should work the same way. You should have to
hold them for them to work and they shouldn't work without an
equivalent warm-up period. And I say that as a manastone owner.
: It's little things like that that Verant didn't do that drive me
: up the wall. _Simple_ small things, closing up _obvious_ loopholes.
: If I didn't know better, I'd swear that nobody who helped design
: EQ had ever played a CRPG before.
The sad thing is that things like this don't take *that* long for
a development team to do. All they have to do is code up some
interesting ways in which items can work and then its entirely up
to the content people how to use those to make interesting items.
:> > Damn, man. Choices. In Everquest. You wouldn't have one
:> >approach that's totally more optimal than another rammed down
:> >your throat.
:> > You'd almost think you were playing a game designed by
:> >professionals.
:> I doubt that'll ever happen. :)
: Try Diablo II. I'm _good_ at design work (at least, I get paid
: a god-awful amount of money for it), but Blizzard is better than
: I am. I've read a lot of stuff about what they're doing in it,
: and I am _very_ impressed. I'm really looking forward to it.
I was never a big fan of Diablo. I hated the loading time between
levels and thought it was little more than an isometric click-fest.
I hate games that are click-fests (I put Warcraft and all its
derivatives in this category). Twisting songs and swapping items
in and out to get the effects falls into this category as well.
:> > This pretty much does exist. It doesn't have any other effects
:> >other than Clarity, but it does let you cast Clarity at will. 30
:> >second cast time, but it's handy. Drops off Innoruuk.
:> Yeah, but it isn't handy, because it has a 30 second cast time. If
:> it had a THREE second cast time, it'd be useful. Hell, if it had
:> a TEN second cast time, it'd be somewhat useful... but thirty?
:> Funk dat. That's crap.
: It's questionable, and, frankly, discouraging that Verant thinks
: that that item is a worthy god-drop. That rod should be, frankly,
: the common drop off a 40ish mob someplace. But it's _soooooo_
: much better than Briarzephyr, in design terms, as to make it
: noteworthy. It's a sad commentary when such a margin item as this
: is an example of the best design work Verant's done on the item
: front.
If you want to look at crap drops just look at what Estrella in
Kedge drops. I've got the Rod of Drones off of her. Look at its
stats: 1hb 5/30 5 *charges* of Drones of Doom (34 druid DoT).
This off a level 51-52 monster which takes 6 quite skilled 45-50s
to take (or more often 8-12 people).
And its no drop too. Just as well or who knows how unbalancing it
would've been to give it to someone else *chortle*.
Even if it proc'ed Drones of Doom it still wouldn't be that good
because any druid worth his salt would be casting Drifting Death
by that stage anyway. The Earthcrafter Staff has the same flaw.
:> > Now, compare this, which is nice but, IMHO, pretty much a parlor
:> >trick, with the Diamond Rod. Wizard-only, 5 _charges_ of
:> >Diamondskin, 30 second cast time, also drops off Innoruuk.
:> >Someone at Verant hates burn mages, eh?
:> Nah, both items are worthless. I hear the wizard rod requires the
:> gem to work too, so I guess it's even more worthless, if that
:> makes you feel any better.
: I'm told that the Diamond Rod eating peridots is a bug, actually.
: I don't think the Rod of Clear Thought is really quite as bad as
: you think it is; certainly, the Diamond Rod is much, much worse.
A thirty second casting time is crap. You could probably gain the
mana for clarity by medding for 30 seconds instead (if not it
wouldn't be that far off).
NBarnes
> NBarnes <nba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> : Well, for you to be able to use them, you have to be wearing them.
> : And if you take them off, the effect goes away.
> : So if you're wanting to use them as an escape method if things go
> : to heck, then you need to be wearing them all the time. And, yes,
> : you can take them off when they're not charged up. Makes some
> : sense to me, I wouldn't be wearing my Seven-League Boots around the
> : house, either.
> : Or you could have a version that just made you walk faster. But
> : when you put them on, it takes ten minutes for them to kick in. And
> : if you take them off, you lose the effect, until you wear them for
> : another 10 minutes.
> I agree. A one or two minute warm-up period would be sufficient
> though (imho).
That's something that I think would have to be judged through
playtesting. It's easy enough (or should be easy enough) to
shift the number up and down.
> I think manastones should work the same way. You should have to
> hold them for them to work and they shouldn't work without an
> equivalent warm-up period. And I say that as a manastone owner.
Yeah, I have one, too, and I'll be the first to admit that,
relative to other items in EQ, it's totally broken. Mind, it's
not _that_ effective, but it's certainly a _lot_ better than many
other items, since so many items have an extremely negligible effect
on your play, and since you don't have to hold it, it doesn't have
any drawbacks (always a sign of brokenness). A warm-up time for
the manastone of a minute would certainly make it quite balanced.
> : It's little things like that that Verant didn't do that drive me
> : up the wall. _Simple_ small things, closing up _obvious_ loopholes.
> : If I didn't know better, I'd swear that nobody who helped design
> : EQ had ever played a CRPG before.
> The sad thing is that things like this don't take *that* long for
> a development team to do. All they have to do is code up some
> interesting ways in which items can work and then its entirely up
> to the content people how to use those to make interesting items.
Exactly. One of the huge problem is the _insanely_ limited number
of ways for items to work. They give stats, proc, or have charges
(limited or unlimited). That's _it_? And then they show _zero_
creativity in the application of these concepts; they're only
recently getting around to putting recharge times on items? Damn,
if they'd had that in the first place, JBoots and manastones wouldn't
have been so broken. Only one regen item in the entire game, and
they took it out? *sigh*
Goddess knows if the failure here was on the programming side or
the content side; both are places that Verant has been known to
fall down, so....
NBarnes
Richard Kuo
Schlansky) wrote:
>
>True enough, your point stands. It is a better proc. Then again, so is soul
>leech, which also comes off the Pussy-God-Cazic(tm).
>
>In my opinion, Soul Leech has the best proc in the game, shortly followed by
>How long did it take to think those up? Oh, about a second. They'd make playing
>a melee class at 50 MUCH more interesting, dontcha think?
>
>Sam
For some reason, Verant's design philosophy on weapons and
items seems to be very generic, and when they *do* stray outside those
boundaries, they make certain that the overall effect is largely
useless.
For example, the Rod of Infinite Thought. The effect takes
so long to cast that you can pretty much cast Clarity on yourself and
med the mana back in the time it takes for the spell to go off. And
this item is Enchanter only to begin with. *sigh*
Why not make this an self only all caster/priest item with
some X% of the regular clarity effect? Would that really be that bad?
It would be highly prized, but neither would it throw enchanters out
the window.
There *is* a way to make items desirable and interesting
without making them unbalanced. I certainly think more can and ought
to be done with god dropped items.
John Henders
> Goddess knows if the failure here was on the programming side or
>the content side; both are places that Verant has been known to
>fall down, so....
Programming, I think. I was told by a usually reliable source that a lot
of items that now have charges were originally meant to work once per EQ
day but they never got that working and therefore cheezed out and put
charges on the items.
--
Artificial Intelligence stands no chance against Natural Stupidity.
GAT d- -p+(--) c++++ l++ u++ t- m--- W--- !v
b+++ e* s-/+ n-(?) h++ f+g+ w+++ y*
NBarnes
> NBarnes <nba...@earthlink.net> writes:
> > Goddess knows if the failure here was on the programming side or
> >the content side; both are places that Verant has been known to
> >fall down, so....
> Programming, I think. I was told by a usually reliable source that
> a lot of items that now have charges were originally meant to work
> once per EQ day but they never got that working and therefore
> cheezed out and put charges on the items.
Eh. Disappointing, but hardly surprising.
NBarnes
abatt...@netscape.net
before that they don't want everyone to have all the high level stuff, that
when you get it you should feel proud. this game needs more depth like the
fiery avenger quest. that's easily a quest you could spend five levels doing,
probably more. i would love a quest that took me five levels to complete,
especially with a reward like FA.
closest i've got is gatorsmash maul quest, which i can't actually do because
my character is a barbarian and very KOS to ogres.
--
josh
Rahan Trueknight
1 - No i dont want this sword. I want a sword to replace my Ghoulbane
2 - 5 level what are you talking about the quest is one of the more badly
designed i have send. Kill 2 dragons, get books, give to lich kill miragul.
spean 20k for PoS.. you call that 5 level ?????? Are you sure you know what
the quest is and what is the stat ???
3 - All others class got a similar sword (that actually outdamage paladins).
They just need to kill a dragon or a god. Why should we kill 2 dragons, 1
lich and spend 20k
when all other class just have to kill a single one for the same stuff ?
Get real, Verant just laugh of people with this quest. I just hope they can
put something
for the Ghoulbane (sprinkler drop is so damn rare. no drop in 40 hours+ so
far).
You should maybe get some informations before post stupid comments.
Rahan
<abatt...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:NZeC4.67121$G91.5...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com...
Thomas R. Pennington
compare the FA to weapons like Beckon, Briarzephyr, or Bloodmoon. Those
weapons are not even in the same class as the FA. The FA is better then
the Ghoulbane. Are you telling me that you do not want the better
weapon? The Ghoulbane is good but it is not the end all be all of
weapons. And BTW, as I see it, the FA is not a replacement for the
Ghoulbane. It is a replacement for the Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler.
If you do not like the FA, do not quest for it. But be assured that you
will be one of the few that will not attempted to get this weapon.
The FA quest is not badly designed. It is designed to be tough. They
made a quest that will be difficult to complete. They made a quest that
will cause many people to rally behind one or two of their paladin
friends just to be able to say, "Hey, I helped so-n-so get his FA". They
made a quest for a weapon that will make every newbie and lower level
person look a the paladin that is wielding it with awe. This awe will
not only come from the members of the same class but from almost all
classes. Who cares if a shadowknight has a Beckon, except a
shadowknight? Who cares if a ranger has Briarzephyr, except a ranger?
But everyone will note and respect a paladin who wields a Fiery Avenger
in battle. So FA quest it not badly designed, it is just to difficult
for you.
I also laugh every time I hear someone say that a weapon has not dropped
in 40+ hours. These statements are many times false, or at least
exaggerated. I generally ask myself the following question when people
make these statements. What is the likelihood that the person making
them have played continuiously in the area for 40+ hours? Given that the
average person has a difficult time staying awake past 24 hours, the
likelihood is very slim. What is the chance that someone else that they
do not know may have received a weapon in the time that they were not on
or in the zone? Since there are a lot of people playing this game and it
is difficult to any one person to know every single person of their
class within 5 levels of them, I find it hard to believe that they would
know if every single one of those other members of their class did not
receive the weapon. Also, there is the chance that the weapon decayed on
the mob if a party had come across it but no one could use it. Finally,
these weapons are VERY rare. They are supposed to be FEW. It is the same
for every class not just paladins. In one statement, you make the
reference of other classes receiving weapons like Beckon which is also a
very rare drop off of a mob that is a special kill, then state how rare
a DHWS drops. So what!
Finally, to quote you Rahan, "You should maybe get some informations
before post stupid comments." BTW, I have looked at the stats of the FA
and am unable to find a better weapon. There are only 2 weapons that can
be even compariable to the FA. They are the Butcherblock Hammer, the
most rare weapon in the game (which IMO, the FA is better). And the
Ashenbone Warhammer, which is a very rare weapon and only usuable by the
King of Melee class called warriors.
-Wadin Pureheart of Quellious
Ranger, 44 summers
NBarnes
>
> I must say that I really find it funny that you are attempting to
> compare the FA to weapons like Beckon, Briarzephyr, or Bloodmoon.
> Those weapons are not even in the same class as the FA. The FA is
> better then the Ghoulbane. Are you telling me that you do not want
> the better weapon? The Ghoulbane is good but it is not the end all
> be all of weapons. And BTW, as I see it, the FA is not a
> replacement for the Ghoulbane. It is a replacement for the
> Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler. If you do not like the FA, do not
> quest for it. But be assured that you will be one of the few that
> will not attempted to get this weapon.
*snippage*
> Finally, to quote you Rahan, "You should maybe get some informations
> before post stupid comments." BTW, I have looked at the stats of the
> FA and am unable to find a better weapon. There are only 2 weapons
> that can be even compariable to the FA. They are the Butcherblock
> Hammer, the most rare weapon in the game (which IMO, the FA is
> better). And the Ashenbone Warhammer, which is a very rare weapon
> and only usuable by the King of Melee class called warriors.
To also quote Rahan, 'You should maybe get some informations before
post stupid comments'. How can you _possibly_ compare FA to
Ghoulbane or the Darkmetal? Hint: FA is a two-hander, not a
one-hander, so it's properly compared to Soulfire, the mith 2hr,
and the Theologian Claymore. It's certainly better than all those,
but, frankly, it is not particularly superior to the Theologian or
Soul Leech or any other planes-class two-hander. Considering that
to get Soul Leech all you need to do is kill Cazic-Thule, but to get
FA you need to get to the fourth island of sky and kill two dragons
(at least) and a lich, it's easy to think that paladins are a little
hosed.
Further, FA is _massively_ worse than a warrior's set of
SDClaws/Bloodfire or a ranger's set of Briarzephyr/Mistwalker.
Either of those combinations would outdamage a paladin with FA by
at least 30%, if not more, making FA look even worse.
FA being so hard to get (and impossible to get without a power
guild behind you to help) and also being a two-hander, thus giving
the lie to Verant's pithy assurances that good paladin one-handers
would be in the game, is insult and injury, both in one neat package.
FA is a cruel joke, played on a class that's already one of the
weakest in the game.
NBarnes
Tony
If you want to get your hands on the FA?... You start working towards it the
day you make your character. DAY 1!! LEVEL 1!!!. 5 levels my ass. 50 and
counting if you wan to aquire the FA. Soulfire Quest start very early in
life.
Paladins are the ONLY class that have a lifetime objective and goal when you
start up a new Paladin.
Have a nice day.
Andrewel Aduros
Paladin of the 30th Season.
Kryogen Katspaw
As a friend who has this combo pointed out:
Darkmetal, Holy Water Sprinkler
+
Bladestopper
You get more HP, more AC, and a better PROC. You also do more damage,
and get a bash.
The FA needs to be 1H with a lower delay, then it is the best. Since
that never will happen, a Paladin is better off finding something planar
to play with.
Regards,
Kryogen Katspaw
bmitchell wrote:
>
> OMG! I can't believe people are whining about this. This is the ultimate
> paladin holy sword, that people have been wanting this whole time, and now
> that it's here, people complain... Everyday I am amazed at the stupidity I
> read from other EQ players... but I find myself reading more and more
> everyday :) it's kinda addicting.
>
> Anyways, *when* I become level 50, and find the "ultimate bard weapon"
> (since all the classes supposedly have one), I hope someone will slap me if
> I complain about it.
John the Thorny
> Further, FA is _massively_ worse than a warrior's set of
>SDClaws/Bloodfire or a ranger's set of Briarzephyr/Mistwalker.
>Either of those combinations would outdamage a paladin with FA by
>at least 30%, if not more, making FA look even worse.
> FA being so hard to get (and impossible to get without a power
>guild behind you to help) and also being a two-hander, thus giving
>the lie to Verant's pithy assurances that good paladin one-handers
>would be in the game, is insult and injury, both in one neat package.
>FA is a cruel joke, played on a class that's already one of the
>weakest in the game.
But aren't you comparing apples to oranges here? I mean, you want the FA
to be better than two excellent 1HS weapons combined? Warriors and
rangers get dual wield, paladins don't; warriors and rangers will have
the edge here. Paladins get spells, rangers do as well, but warriors
don't; paladins will get the edge against warriors, but not against
rangers.Paladins can wear plate, rangers can't; paladins get the edge
over rangers there. If you compare the whole package then you start to
see where the FA fits. The FA by itself will not make a paladin better
than a warrior or a ranger, it's not meant to (and after all, they're
striving for some ideal called balance). Thus, comparing just the FA as
a tool against any TWO excellent warrior/ranger weapons will not be a
fair comparison.
Frankly, I must say I'm not enamored of pallys (I certainly wouldn't
play one)...you're right in that they're kind of screwed, and that is
not the argument here. I simply question your comparison of one really
good item against two pretty darn good items. You're comparing the items
out of context of the whole. This creates an unfair comparison.
John
----
NBarnes
Well, there's a problem. If FA were simply about as good in
its field as a Briarzephyr/Mistwalker combo, it'd be better (still
not without major flaws, but better). But in EQ, two-handers
suffer a _massive_ penalty vs. one-handers, in the form of the
magic number bonus that melee types get with their primary
weapon. This bonus (8 points at 50th) means that low damage, low
delay weapons have a _big_ advantage over high damage, high delay
weapons at the highest levels.
It's not just that a ranger outdamages a paladin, if the former
is using BZ/MW and the latter FA, it's that the ranger has a
huge advantage, totally out of line with the (minor) advantages of
the paladin, because of the intrinsic weakness of two-handers. If
that weakness didn't exist, then FA would be a fine weapon, the
proper paladin answer to BZ/MW. But the world doesn't work like
that, and FA isn't nearly good enough.
The fact that the quest is a total joke unless you're in a power
guild and that it's a two-hander (as opposed to a paladin one-hander,
which (should) be exactly a two-hander than lets you use a shield,
since pallies don't dual wield) is, as I said, insult to injury.
Since two-handers are at a disadvantage vs. one-handers, paladins,
who already have a lower damage output than the other tank classes,
are thrown _right_ into the toilet in terms of being as useful as
a warrior, monk, rogue, or ranger.
NBarnes
zi...@nb.sympatico.ca
> Well, there's a problem. If FA were simply about as good in
>its field as a Briarzephyr/Mistwalker combo, it'd be better (still
>not without major flaws, but better). But in EQ, two-handers
>suffer a _massive_ penalty vs. one-handers, in the form of the
>magic number bonus that melee types get with their primary
>weapon. This bonus (8 points at 50th) means that low damage, low
>delay weapons have a _big_ advantage over high damage, high delay
>weapons at the highest levels.
Then they messed up big and a logical nerf is in order (no I don't
want any classes nerfed but it would seem in this case logic would
dictate what to do NEXT TIME (eq2 sw etc))
In most gaming systems that I am familiar with attacking with a weapon
in your off hand applies penalties to both hands (-2/-4) which through
other skills can end up being negated down to (0/-2 and sometimes a
0/0)
it's early I just got up can't remember how I was gonna finish this
and thats a good thing
Alasdair Allan
> I must say that I really find it funny that you are attempting to
> compare the FA to weapons like Beckon, Briarzephyr, or Bloodmoon. Those
> weapons are not even in the same class as the FA.
Indeed, they are far superior to the Fiery Avenger, in terms of both
Availability and their Damage Output when wielded by the class that can use
them.
> The FA is better then
> the Ghoulbane. Are you telling me that you do not want the better
> weapon? The Ghoulbane is good but it is not the end all be all of
> weapons. And BTW, as I see it, the FA is not a replacement for the
> Ghoulbane. It is a replacement for the Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler.
> If you do not like the FA, do not quest for it. But be assured that you
> will be one of the few that will not attempted to get this weapon.
Verant designed a class called Paladin. This class was designed to be
limited to only using one weapon but for class specific weapons to exist
which would allow them to use a Shield. Because of this, the class was
*not* given Kick.
After Ghoulbane (comparable to a level 20 Warrior or Ranger weapon) there is
*no* 1h Paladin weapon until you reach the Planes. Paladins are forced to
use 2h weapons and therefore give up a chunk of their damage.
What Rahan says is that he is *not* interested in the Fiery Avenger, it is a
pointlessly difficult weapon to acquire, given that it is worse than a good
1h combination (by quite some way). He wants a Paladin equivalent of the
Gigantic Zweihander at level 30, the Executioner Axe at level 40 and the
Mithril 2h at level 50.
The game is balanced so that attack outweighs defense. The meaasly HP
advantage a Paladin has over a Ranger is nothing compared to the 50% higher
damage output of the Ranger. In a fight where the Paladinw would take 30
combat rounds to kill a mob, the Ranger would take 20. The Ranger takes 66%
of the damage because of their higher attack rate. The Paladin's HPs add
around 2 combat rounds or 10% to their survivability.
Worse, there is no AC advantage for the Paladin because Verant fucked up
(and have admitted it) the Ranger class specific armour and refuse to nerf
it.
>
> I also laugh every time I hear someone say that a weapon has not dropped
> in 40+ hours. These statements are many times false, or at least
> exaggerated.
No they are accurate. The first Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler to drop on
Tarew Marr is 4 weeks occurred last night. Thats is *accurate* because
people *genuinely* believed the weapon had been removed from the game. It
is not difficult to stay in touch with drops in the Planes. I know exactly
when the last Rune Etched Breastplate dropped and I don't even bother with
Hate any more.
> I generally ask myself the following question when people
> make these statements. What is the likelihood that the person making
> them have played continuiously in the area for 40+ hours?
No likelihood at all. You don't need to be playing when a Hate drop occurs
to find out about it (excepting Cleric and Warrior items). They are so rare
that they are a notable event and word spreads quickly.
> [...]
>
> Finally, to quote you Rahan, "You should maybe get some informations
> before post stupid comments." BTW, I have looked at the stats of the FA
> and am unable to find a better weapon.
Warrior 2h Planar weapons are *all* better. Warriors use Kick/Slam/Bash
therefore their damage output is higher with common drops than a Paladin
using their Ultimate weapon.
In addition, most 1h combinations of Planar weapons for Rangers or Warriors
are *hugely* superior when all methods of attack are factored in. A Weapon
is *not* simply an examination of its statistics. It is a sum of its
usefulness *IN TERMS OF CLASSES THAT CAN USE IT*. Classes add different
additional damage depending on the weapon and Class design. 2h weapons
*really* hurt Paladins.
> There are only 2 weapons that can
> be even compariable to the FA. They are the Butcherblock Hammer, the
> most rare weapon in the game (which IMO, the FA is better). And the
> Ashenbone Warhammer, which is a very rare weapon and only usuable by the
> King of Melee class called warriors.
You know Magic Number theory. Do the comparison for Sunderfury and Fiery
Avenger. Then make an allowance for Bash or Kick (use 10/70 for Bash, 8/70
for Kick without Magic Number bonus).
Once you have done that, tell us then that Fiery Avenger is the best weapon
in the game.
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
Sam Schlansky
<01bf957f$14fd6800$cd0201c0@dell40>:
>Thomas R. Pennington <to...@cmhcsys.com> wrote
>> I must say that I really find it funny that you are attempting
>> to compare the FA to weapons like Beckon, Briarzephyr, or
>> Bloodmoon. Those weapons are not even in the same class as the
>> FA.
>
>Indeed, they are far superior to the Fiery Avenger, in terms of
>both Availability
Well, I suppose that depends on how you look at it. Briarzephyr are both VERY
rare drops off Inny... you don't see too many of em. On the other hand, almost
every vox or nagafen kill drops a book-- they appear to be a common drop. Last
week, vox dropped TWO books on my server in one kill.
You're confusing "availability" with "freqency of drop". Nobody's going to
argue that it's EASIER to get a fiery avenger than a Briarzephyr; it obviously
isn't... but when guilds farm sky like fear, hate, and the dragons, it will be.
The problem, of course, is that you need two dragon drops, but each of the
books has around a 75% chance of dropping. Once you get the two books, you
spawn a badass mob, kill it, hand in your ghoulbane, soulfire, robe, and head,
go to isle 4 in Sky, and get the sword.
So if you break it down...
1) Kill Vox, get a 75% drop
2) Kill Nagafen, get a 75% drop
3) Get Ghoulbane (every paladin has one)
4) Get Soulfire (a trivial quest)
5) Complete the Book of Scale (a trivial quest)
6) Spawn Miragul and kill it (trivial for three groups of 50s)
7) Go to Island 4 of Sky to hand in items (very difficult NOW, not so difficult
after expansion)
And what you've got here really doesn't look all THAT bad. As I understand it,
Vox and Nagafen won't be significantly upgraded in the expansion... they'll
probably be moved to level 63 (so they're red to 60s) but Verant has promised
some SERIOUS dragons in Kunark... Vox and Naggy will be pansies in comparison.
Sure you'll still need four groups to kill em, but they won't be the huge
undertaking that they are today.
I just hope that they're moved to a 48-hour spawn by then... that's the REAL
problem; barring server/zone resets, you've only got two dragons every nine
days. Assuming a 75% drop rate on the books, thats around thirty fiery avengers
per year which simply isn't enough.
Right NOW the FA is a huge status symbol; in four months it'll be Ghoulbane--
when you compare paladins to other classes you say "Well don't forget paladins
have the fiery avenger..."
That's how it should be, anyway.
>and their Damage Output when wielded by the class that can use them.
I'd love to see how you figure that Beckon or Bloodmoon can outdamage the fiery
avenger. (Briarzephyr no argument, it will, when dualwielded)
Bloodmoon: 18/28 (0.643 ratio, no proc)
Beckon: 30/42 (0.714 ratio, no proc)
FA: 33/44 (0.750 ratio, procs a 110DD)
I mean, really. You might have a case arguing that beckon's lower delay, giving
more doubleattack checks, will outdamage the FA.... but frankly I kinda doubt
it.
I'm not talking about "which is overall a better weapon" here, I'm talking
about pure damage. And the FA is pretty fucking good. It's the best 2H-weapon,
in the game, in fact, since the ashenbone warhammer doesn't exist.
>> The FA is better then
>> the Ghoulbane. Are you telling me that you do not want the
>> better weapon? The Ghoulbane is good but it is not the end all
>> be all of weapons. And BTW, as I see it, the FA is not a
>> replacement for the Ghoulbane. It is a replacement for the
>> Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler. If you do not like the FA, do
>> not quest for it. But be assured that you will be one of the few
>> that will not attempted to get this weapon.
>
>Verant designed a class called Paladin. This class was designed
>to be limited to only using one weapon but for class specific
>weapons to exist which would allow them to use a Shield. Because
>of this, the class was *not* given Kick.
How do you know this? Of the paladin-only weapons in the game, two are 2H
(Soulfire, FA) and two are 1H. (Ghoulbane, Sprinkler)
Sure, you might surmise the above from the addition of all the kickass shields
lately, since nobody but a paladin or shadowknight would ever consider using a
shield... but... how do you KNOW?
BTW, the paladin class was not given kick because it isn't "chivalrous" to kick
in battle. The shadowknight class doesn't get it because they're balanced
against the paladins. That's why it's really like that.
Don't confuse "what makes sense" with "what verant actually thinks". The two
often have nothing to do with another.
>After Ghoulbane (comparable to a level 20 Warrior or Ranger
>weapon) there is *no* 1h Paladin weapon until you reach the
>Planes. Paladins are forced to use 2h weapons and therefore give
>up a chunk of their damage.
Give up a chunk of their DAMAGE? Are you insane? How the hell does Ghoulbane
outdamage a Skarlon sword or even a M2H? Perhaps against undead with lots of
lucky procs, but not a chance otherwise.
What they ACTUALLY give up is bash, a chunk of armorclass, a chunk of stat
buffs, and resists from the shield.
And really, before the awesome plane/dragon shields, who gives a shit? So you
can't use a mistmoore shield, big whoop. Who cares...
But when you can't use your shield of the stalwart seas, bladestopper, shield
of the immaculate, or shield of rainbow hues, well... those actually make a
difference.
So in conclusion YES you're right. There are no really good 1H paladin weapons
until you hit the planes and get yourself a sprinkler... but then again there
aren't any shields worth a damn either.
And when you want to bash on casters or you need to tank, you equip
ghoulbane/mm shield and get to work. A mithril 2H-sword does very good damage
right up to level 46. Will it beat a pair of ykeshas or EBWs? No. But it'll get
you in the ballpark.
>What Rahan says is that he is *not* interested in the Fiery
>Avenger, it is a pointlessly difficult weapon to acquire, given
>that it is worse than a good 1h combination (by quite some way).
The fiery avenger will outdamage a pair of ykeshas or EBWs with ease. It's
about equal or perhaps a bit better than a rat whip/fluxbladed axe. It won't
even approach bloodfire/dragonclaws or mistwalker/briarzepyr.
Then again, in order to get those kickass dualwielding combinations, you need
to kill two mobs of god/dragon difficulty and get a rare drop from each of
them.
So, yes... a ranger or warrior using the best weapons in the game will
outdamage a paladin with the fiery avenger. Umm, so what? Dualwielding does
more damage than 2H-slashing, everybody knows that by now.
>He wants a Paladin equivalent of the Gigantic Zweihander at level
>30, the Executioner Axe at level 40 and the Mithril 2h at level
>50.
Ehh? Seems to me you got it. It beats the shit out of a M2H.
>The game is balanced so that attack outweighs defense. The
>meaasly HP advantage a Paladin has over a Ranger is nothing
>compared to the 50% higher damage output of the Ranger. In a
>fight where the Paladinw would take 30 combat rounds to kill a
>mob, the Ranger would take 20. The Ranger takes 66% of the damage
>because of their higher attack rate. The Paladin's HPs add around
>2 combat rounds or 10% to their survivability.
Soloing, you're absolutely correct. But melee characters aren't supposed to
solo-- a LDC will cream both a ranger AND a paladin.
So, in groups, you have to decide which you'd rather have; a better tank or a
better damage-dealer.
Incidentally, self-buffed, a 50 paladin will have 800 more HP and 45-50 more
armorclass than a ranger . That is not insignificant, even though it only
really applies to soloing.
>Worse, there is no AC advantage for the Paladin because Verant
>fucked up (and have admitted it) the Ranger class specific armour
>and refuse to nerf it.
The ranger class-specific armor is not fucked up. It is the exact same
armorclass as rubicite. *ALL* class-specific armor was added to the game to
replace rubicite; if they gave rangers something inferior they'd have a riot on
their hands.
The problem is that it isn't *feasible* to give a level 40+ melee character
armor inferior to rubicite. Before the class-specific armor was added, if you
played a ranger and didn't have rubicite, you were pretty much worthless as a
tank. And YES I'm including silver-plated legs, dwarven work boots, brigadine
tunic, crested helm, azure sleeves, etc. A few points of armorclass (around 12
in this particular case) makes a *huge* difference.
How much more AC does Armor of Ro give over Ivy-Etched again? Nine? Ten?
That isn't insignificant, although it MAY seem so-- many paladins, warriors,
and shadowknights wear jewelry and such not optimized for armorclass, thus
negating that advantage. Rangers are used to scrounging for AC, so you see many
of them wearing gold topaz (3AC) earrings and the like.
(snip)
>> Finally, to quote you Rahan, "You should maybe get some
>> informations before post stupid comments." BTW, I have looked at
>> the stats of the FA and am unable to find a better weapon.
>
>Warrior 2h Planar weapons are *all* better. Warriors use
>Kick/Slam/Bash therefore their damage output is higher with common
>drops than a Paladin using their Ultimate weapon.
Oh PLEASE. That is SUCH bullshit. Bash/slam/kick are all on a 800 (8-second)
delay and do under 30 points of damage-- and thats a kick from a fully buffed
ogre warrior. These secondary attacks do truly insignificant amounts of damage
at high level; they're totally outclassed by weapons. Kick is pretty much
worthless at level 50, bash is not.
Umm, except the monks, of course.
>In addition, most 1h combinations of Planar weapons for Rangers or
>Warriors are *hugely* superior when all methods of attack are
>factored in. A Weapon is *not* simply an examination of its
>statistics. It is a sum of its usefulness *IN TERMS OF CLASSES
>THAT CAN USE IT*. Classes add different additional damage
>depending on the weapon and Class design. 2h weapons *really*
>hurt Paladins.
All methods of attack? What else is there, you turn on autoattack.
I went through this above; the standard rat whip/flux axe (rangers) or amy
whip/yak (warriors) simply will NOT outdamage a fiery avenger. The ranger whip
is SO good that it might come close, but amy whip/yak sure as hell won't.
2H-weapons hurt paladins because you get all of those kickass shields, and
because faster weapons outperform what you'd expect from their damage/delay
ratios.
But, get this... read this very carefully now, okay....?
A 1 damage 10 delay weapon doesn't outdamage a 33/44 one.
Delay is VERY important, yes. Delay makes a HUGE difference, yes. But dam/delay
ratios aren't totally crap-- 33/44 kicks ASS. 44 is a long delay, but the
damage more than makes up for it.
A 22/30 weapon WILL NOT do 140% the damage of a 33/44 one, even though they
have the same ratio and one is 70% faster. It will end up doing around 50% more
damage.
In the same vein, a 16/29 weapon (sprinkler) will NOT outdamage a 33/44 one. It
just doesn't work out that way. The FA will do 40% more damage.
Is 40% more damage worth giving up a shield of the stalwart seas? No way, José.
Is it worth giving up a shield of the immaculate? Well.... probably not, in
most situations.
Is it worth giving up a trueheart shield? Maybe yes, maybe no. They're pretty
close, the trueheart shield isn't so wonderful.
Is that 40% damage worth giving up a mistmoore shield? Fuck yeah, FA it is.
>> There are only 2 weapons that can
>> be even compariable to the FA. They are the Butcherblock Hammer,
>> the most rare weapon in the game (which IMO, the FA is better).
>> And the Ashenbone Warhammer, which is a very rare weapon and
>> only usuable by the King of Melee class called warriors.
>
>You know Magic Number theory. Do the comparison for Sunderfury
>and Fiery Avenger.
You mean fiery avenger with a haste sash, I assume, right?
BTW, the ashenbone warhammer is more than "very rare", it's "nonexistant".
Nobody has ever gotten one. It's a hoax.
>Then make an allowance for Bash or Kick (use
>10/70 for Bash, 8/70 for Kick without Magic Number bonus).
Kick does more damage than bash at the same skill level and strength.
>Once you have done that, tell us then that Fiery Avenger is the
>best weapon in the game.
As far as pure damage goes, the fiery avenger is the best 2h-weapon in the
game. It might not be the best weapon for a paladin to USE, all things
considered... but for DAMAGE it's the king.
Tony
well.
"Kryogen Katspaw" <kry...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:38DAEA70...@mindspring.com...
Mr Foo Bar
how good a weapon is you have to take into account what you lose by using
it. For example, use a 2hs and you lose dual wielding (obviously) or use of
a shield. Especially where that extra damage accounts for a larger
proportion of melee damage that class can deliver (eg losing dual wield for
a warrior to use a 2hs is less of a big deal than for a paladin because they
don't get bash+kick).
I can certainly agree with that.
However I think trying to compare across classes and say "a warrior wielding
X is better than a paladin wielding Y" therefore weapon Y sucks isn't valid
(maybe you weren't saying that but that was my impression). The only valid
comparison is if a paladin wielding Y outdamages (taking into account all
melee damage dealing skills) a paladin wielding X then Y is the better
weapon .
Again maybe that wasn't what you were saying and you agree with me. Wasn't
entirely clear.
I agree with your point that pallys should get more class specific weapons
to fill out the gap from 20 (ghoulbane) upwards to, but not that there
should be as many as there are for the warrior. They way things should be
setup is: there is a reasonable spread of decent 1hs and 2hs that all tanks
can use (and there seems to be) and then there are some that only warriors
can use and then there are a effective smaller number that only paladin,
only ranger and only sk's can use (maybe with some overlap with warriors
which seems fine and would count towards their class-specific weps).
For example:
Sword of Life Leech: procs one of the necro/sk life tap series (which
depends on play balance) SK and WAR
Sword of Lesser Healing procs a lowish level healing spell (again which one
depends on play balance) PAL and WAR
etc
etc
I really don't see why there aren't any reasonable, mid-level, questable
weapons for these classes in particular. (Oh and they should be no-drop when
got btw otherwise I can see a repeat of the stein of moggok debacle - a nice
quest devalued because it could be and was farmed).
(BTW I think the ebony bladed sword and ghoulbane should be WAR usable. In
fact taking that point further I think the only 1hs/2hs weps that should not
be usable by warriors should be any class specific quest items.)
Alasdair Allan <posth...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:01bf957f$14fd6800$cd0201c0@dell40...
> Thomas R. Pennington <to...@cmhcsys.com> wrote
> > I must say that I really find it funny that you are attempting to
> > compare the FA to weapons like Beckon, Briarzephyr, or Bloodmoon. Those
> > weapons are not even in the same class as the FA.
>
> Indeed, they are far superior to the Fiery Avenger, in terms of both
> Availability and their Damage Output when wielded by the class that can
use
> them.
>
> > The FA is better then
> > the Ghoulbane. Are you telling me that you do not want the better
> > weapon? The Ghoulbane is good but it is not the end all be all of
> > weapons. And BTW, as I see it, the FA is not a replacement for the
> > Ghoulbane. It is a replacement for the Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler.
> > If you do not like the FA, do not quest for it. But be assured that you
> > will be one of the few that will not attempted to get this weapon.
>
> Verant designed a class called Paladin. This class was designed to be
> limited to only using one weapon but for class specific weapons to exist
> which would allow them to use a Shield. Because of this, the class was
> *not* given Kick.
>
> After Ghoulbane (comparable to a level 20 Warrior or Ranger weapon) there
is
> *no* 1h Paladin weapon until you reach the Planes. Paladins are forced to
> use 2h weapons and therefore give up a chunk of their damage.
>
> What Rahan says is that he is *not* interested in the Fiery Avenger, it is
a
> pointlessly difficult weapon to acquire, given that it is worse than a
good
> 1h combination (by quite some way). He wants a Paladin equivalent of the
> Gigantic Zweihander at level 30, the Executioner Axe at level 40 and the
> Mithril 2h at level 50.
>
> The game is balanced so that attack outweighs defense. The meaasly HP
> advantage a Paladin has over a Ranger is nothing compared to the 50%
higher
> damage output of the Ranger. In a fight where the Paladinw would take 30
> combat rounds to kill a mob, the Ranger would take 20. The Ranger takes
66%
> of the damage because of their higher attack rate. The Paladin's HPs add
> around 2 combat rounds or 10% to their survivability.
>
> Worse, there is no AC advantage for the Paladin because Verant fucked up
> (and have admitted it) the Ranger class specific armour and refuse to nerf
> it.
>
> >
> > I also laugh every time I hear someone say that a weapon has not dropped
> > in 40+ hours. These statements are many times false, or at least
> > exaggerated.
>
> No they are accurate. The first Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler to drop on
> Tarew Marr is 4 weeks occurred last night. Thats is *accurate* because
> people *genuinely* believed the weapon had been removed from the game. It
> is not difficult to stay in touch with drops in the Planes. I know
exactly
> when the last Rune Etched Breastplate dropped and I don't even bother with
> Hate any more.
>
> > I generally ask myself the following question when people
> > make these statements. What is the likelihood that the person making
> > them have played continuiously in the area for 40+ hours?
>
> No likelihood at all. You don't need to be playing when a Hate drop
occurs
> to find out about it (excepting Cleric and Warrior items). They are so
rare
> that they are a notable event and word spreads quickly.
>
> > [...]
> >
> > Finally, to quote you Rahan, "You should maybe get some informations
> > before post stupid comments." BTW, I have looked at the stats of the FA
> > and am unable to find a better weapon.
>
> Warrior 2h Planar weapons are *all* better. Warriors use Kick/Slam/Bash
> therefore their damage output is higher with common drops than a Paladin
> using their Ultimate weapon.
>
> In addition, most 1h combinations of Planar weapons for Rangers or
Warriors
> are *hugely* superior when all methods of attack are factored in. A
Weapon
> is *not* simply an examination of its statistics. It is a sum of its
> usefulness *IN TERMS OF CLASSES THAT CAN USE IT*. Classes add different
> additional damage depending on the weapon and Class design. 2h weapons
> *really* hurt Paladins.
>
> > There are only 2 weapons that can
> > be even compariable to the FA. They are the Butcherblock Hammer, the
> > most rare weapon in the game (which IMO, the FA is better). And the
> > Ashenbone Warhammer, which is a very rare weapon and only usuable by the
> > King of Melee class called warriors.
>
> You know Magic Number theory. Do the comparison for Sunderfury and Fiery
> Avenger. Then make an allowance for Bash or Kick (use 10/70 for Bash,
8/70
> for Kick without Magic Number bonus).
>
> Once you have done that, tell us then that Fiery Avenger is the best
weapon
> in the game.
>
John the Thorny
> Well, there's a problem. If FA were simply about as good in
>its field as a Briarzephyr/Mistwalker combo, it'd be better (still
>not without major flaws, but better). But in EQ, two-handers
>suffer a _massive_ penalty vs. one-handers, in the form of the
>magic number bonus that melee types get with their primary
>weapon. This bonus (8 points at 50th) means that low damage, low
>delay weapons have a _big_ advantage over high damage, high delay
>weapons at the highest levels.
> It's not just that a ranger outdamages a paladin, if the former
>is using BZ/MW and the latter FA, it's that the ranger has a
>huge advantage, totally out of line with the (minor) advantages of
>the paladin, because of the intrinsic weakness of two-handers. If
>that weakness didn't exist, then FA would be a fine weapon, the
>proper paladin answer to BZ/MW. But the world doesn't work like
>that, and FA isn't nearly good enough.
> The fact that the quest is a total joke unless you're in a power
>guild and that it's a two-hander (as opposed to a paladin one-hander,
>which (should) be exactly a two-hander than lets you use a shield,
>since pallies don't dual wield) is, as I said, insult to injury.
>Since two-handers are at a disadvantage vs. one-handers, paladins,
>who already have a lower damage output than the other tank classes,
>are thrown _right_ into the toilet in terms of being as useful as
>a warrior, monk, rogue, or ranger.
Yes, but you see...the problem isn't with the FA, it's with the fact
that 2H is plain screwed as compared to 1H. This argument would also be
valid and could be made for the GZ, Mith 2HS, or 2H Silvery Axe, for
that matter.
I think the only way to compare the FA fairly is to compare it to other
2HS weapons that a paladin can use. How does it stack up to a GZ, or to
a Mith 2HS?
That's my argument, and yes...the FA should have been 1H.
John
----
JackiePrice
outdamages dual ykeshas or dual Waks, even if they use a haste sash with the
1 handers.
Thomas R. Pennington
NBarnes wrote:
>
> It's not just that a ranger outdamages a paladin, if the former
> is using BZ/MW and the latter FA, it's that the ranger has a
> huge advantage, totally out of line with the (minor) advantages of
> the paladin, because of the intrinsic weakness of two-handers. If
> that weakness didn't exist, then FA would be a fine weapon, the
> proper paladin answer to BZ/MW. But the world doesn't work like
> that, and FA isn't nearly good enough.
So let me get this straight. Are you saying that because a ranger can
out damage a paladin given that both the rangers and paladin have the
best weapons they could possibly ever obtain means that the paladin
should not consider using the FA? It has always been know that rangers
and warriors do more damage then a paladin when it comes to melee. That
does not negate the fact that the FA could be one of the best weapons
for a paladin and that is most likely the best 2 handed weapon in the
game.
First off, let me remind everyone that the Magic Number thereom is a
equation used to generate a possible mean damage per melee second. On a
one-to-one basis at level 50, the FA will have a magic number of 16.89
while the BZ will have a magic number of 13.68. The MW has a magic
number of 11.20. You can easily see that on a 1-to-1 basis, the FA is
better then a BZ or a MW. As usual, it is not until you can place the
second hand into the equation that a combination of FA/MW will be
superior to that of the FA. Which has always been the case when talking
about rangers/warriors vs. paladins/shadowknights. You can look at the
same thing when you talk about the EB vs ghoulbane. If you did the
numbers, you would find that the BZ/MW vs FA would come out to have the
BZ/MW having 22% more damage. The EB/EB vs GB would have EB/EB having
20% more damage. So as you can see, this difference in damage has been
around for a long time. It is what many believe is designed in the
classes. (Note: I am unfortunately ignoring any damage down by a proc on
any of these weapon comparison do the the fact that it is difficult to
accurately determine the fequency of the proc)
BTW, other then rogues and monks, the damage down by the melee classes
at high levels does not really matter. It is the ability of the melee
classes to absorb the damage of mobs that matters. And it is a know fact
that many clerics will let a ranger die to save a group when healling
because their HP drops so quick. More so then a paladins. Heck, how can
we even compare and an argue weapons when a mages pet will do the damage
of any great 2 hander with the speed of any great 1 hander and the
double attack/dual wielding ability of any ranger or warrior?
-Wadin Pureheart of Quellious
Ranger, 44 summers
PS> If anyone is interested, I would be willing to show my calculations
in coming up with these numbers.
Adar
Ken Andrews <gob...@degook.com> wrote in message
news:38dc097c....@news.cadvision.com...
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:12:23 GMT, s...@deletethis.operation3d.com (Sam
> Schlansky) wrote:
>
> >3) Get Ghoulbane (every paladin has one)
>
> Ghoulbane, I never will have a Ghoulbane. Give me one, and I'll
> destroy it immediately. Not *EVERY* Paladin has one. Some of us
> understand what being a Paladin is about. (And no, I am not talking
> about in-game, where levelling is King. I am talking about the *idea*
> behind the class.)
Umm, the *idea* behind the class is to slaughter everything that might
disagree with you in the cause of all that is holy and just (by your god's
definition.)
Hell, think of what 'Fiery Avenger' actually means...
Brudo (E'ci)
Loredaeron (E'ci)
Ken Andrews
Schlansky) wrote:
>3) Get Ghoulbane (every paladin has one)
Speak for yourself, please, not for others. I do not have a
Sam Schlansky
<38dc097c....@news.cadvision.com>:
>On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:12:23 GMT, s...@deletethis.operation3d.com
>(Sam Schlansky) wrote:
>
>>3) Get Ghoulbane (every paladin has one)
>
>Speak for yourself, please, not for others. I do not have a
>Ghoulbane, I never will have a Ghoulbane. Give me one, and I'll
>destroy it immediately. Not *EVERY* Paladin has one. Some of us
>understand what being a Paladin is about. (And no, I am not
>talking about in-game, where levelling is King. I am talking
>about the *idea* behind the class.)
Sorry, I misspoke. I should have said
"Every paladin who wants one has one."
Better?
Ken Andrews
Schlansky) wrote:
>gob...@degook.com (Ken Andrews) wrote in
><38dc097c....@news.cadvision.com>:
>
>>On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:12:23 GMT, s...@deletethis.operation3d.com
>>(Sam Schlansky) wrote:
>>
>>>3) Get Ghoulbane (every paladin has one)
>>
>>Speak for yourself, please, not for others. I do not have a
>>Ghoulbane, I never will have a Ghoulbane. Give me one, and I'll
>>destroy it immediately. Not *EVERY* Paladin has one. Some of us
>>understand what being a Paladin is about. (And no, I am not
>>talking about in-game, where levelling is King. I am talking
>>about the *idea* behind the class.)
>
>Sorry, I misspoke. I should have said
>
>"Every paladin who wants one has one."
>
>Better?
Yes, thank you.
Billy Shields
: M2H isn't screwed at all. Despite the negatives of a 2 handed weapon, it
: outdamages dual ykeshas or dual Waks, even if they use a haste sash with the
: 1 handers.
It does until you factor in the third attack (slam, bash or kick)
and then it loses. Plus the M2H relies on a higher haste factor
to do its damage. If you're hasted enough under either option
to get to the haste cap it also loses out.
Billy Shields
: Thomas R. Pennington <to...@cmhcsys.com> wrote
:> I must say that I really find it funny that you are attempting to
:> compare the FA to weapons like Beckon, Briarzephyr, or Bloodmoon. Those
:> weapons are not even in the same class as the FA.
: Indeed, they are far superior to the Fiery Avenger, in terms of both
: Availability and their Damage Output when wielded by the class that can use
: them.
Let me quote some figures from my damage calculator spreadsheet
assuming:
1. Level 50
2. No hasting
3. No procs
4. Magic number theory as it is currently understood
5. Average damage is 80% of the magic number
6. Double attack 200 has a 50% chance of succeeding
7. Dual wield 200 has a 41.6% chance of giving an offhand attack
8. Double attack is applied at an equal probability once an
offhand attack is made
FA: 20.182/second
BZ/MW: 20.415/second
The gulf isn't huge but the FA is extremely difficult to get (though
with the other two you have to rely on a lottery to get them). Its
the third attack which really makes the margin for the dual wielding
combo.
:> The FA is better then
:> the Ghoulbane. Are you telling me that you do not want the better
:> weapon? The Ghoulbane is good but it is not the end all be all of
:> weapons. And BTW, as I see it, the FA is not a replacement for the
:> Ghoulbane. It is a replacement for the Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler.
:> If you do not like the FA, do not quest for it. But be assured that you
:> will be one of the few that will not attempted to get this weapon.
: Verant designed a class called Paladin. This class was designed to be
: limited to only using one weapon but for class specific weapons to exist
: which would allow them to use a Shield. Because of this, the class was
: *not* given Kick.
: After Ghoulbane (comparable to a level 20 Warrior or Ranger weapon) there is
: *no* 1h Paladin weapon until you reach the Planes. Paladins are forced to
: use 2h weapons and therefore give up a chunk of their damage.
I agree the FA should've been 1h instead of 2h. I think the ranger
class works because it does damage. I think the paladin class
doesn't work (sacrificing damage output for tanking ability
essentially) doesn't work because they have a much bigger problem
taunting due to their lower damage output.
: What Rahan says is that he is *not* interested in the Fiery Avenger, it is a
: pointlessly difficult weapon to acquire, given that it is worse than a good
: 1h combination (by quite some way). He wants a Paladin equivalent of the
: Gigantic Zweihander at level 30, the Executioner Axe at level 40 and the
: Mithril 2h at level 50.
: The game is balanced so that attack outweighs defense. The meaasly HP
: advantage a Paladin has over a Ranger is nothing compared to the 50% higher
: damage output of the Ranger. In a fight where the Paladinw would take 30
: combat rounds to kill a mob, the Ranger would take 20. The Ranger takes 66%
: of the damage because of their higher attack rate. The Paladin's HPs add
: around 2 combat rounds or 10% to their survivability.
: Worse, there is no AC advantage for the Paladin because Verant fucked up
: (and have admitted it) the Ranger class specific armour and refuse to nerf
: it.
Personally I don't the ranger armour should be nerfed: I think the
paladin armour should be enhanced (and I'm using the word as it
appears in the dictionary and not the weird definition Verant
chose when they patched Fear and said the loot had been "enhanced").
I think the ranger quests were well designed. The armour matched
rubicite (in AC terms), didn't require waiting for 8+ hour spawns
and could actually be quite fun to get.
:>
:> I also laugh every time I hear someone say that a weapon has not dropped
:> in 40+ hours. These statements are many times false, or at least
:> exaggerated.
: No they are accurate. The first Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler to drop on
: Tarew Marr is 4 weeks occurred last night. Thats is *accurate* because
: people *genuinely* believed the weapon had been removed from the game. It
: is not difficult to stay in touch with drops in the Planes. I know exactly
: when the last Rune Etched Breastplate dropped and I don't even bother with
: Hate any more.
I agree. You can quite easily keep an accurate account of major
drops if you're so inclined. At low level I used to wonder when
people said "X got the 3rd Mistwalker on this server" thinking
"how do they know?". Its quite simple: it takes that many people
to get one of these items that everyone knows who got what.
Billy Shields
: postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk (Alasdair Allan) wrote in
: <01bf957f$14fd6800$cd0201c0@dell40>:
: Bloodmoon: 18/28 (0.643 ratio, no proc)
Average damage: 18.857/second
: Beckon: 30/42 (0.714 ratio, no proc)
Average damage: 19.429/second
: FA: 33/44 (0.750 ratio, procs a 110DD)
Average damage: 20.182/second
: ghoulbane/mm shield and get to work. A mithril 2H-sword does very good damage
: right up to level 46. Will it beat a pair of ykeshas or EBWs? No. But it'll get
: you in the ballpark.
I agree.
:>What Rahan says is that he is *not* interested in the Fiery
:>Avenger, it is a pointlessly difficult weapon to acquire, given
:>that it is worse than a good 1h combination (by quite some way).
: The fiery avenger will outdamage a pair of ykeshas or EBWs with ease. It's
Actually, dual Ykeshas averages 15.328/second (plus procs). Add
kick or bash for another 2.3/second and you're up to almost 18
per second. Thats not a huge margin. Plus you should really
compare FA to plane and dragon weapons (FBA, BZ, Mistwalker, etc)
in which case it loses but not by a huge margin.
: about equal or perhaps a bit better than a rat whip/fluxbladed axe. It won't
: even approach bloodfire/dragonclaws or mistwalker/briarzepyr.
I think it would lose to bloodfire simply because of its proc (which
is arguably the best proc in the game).
: Then again, in order to get those kickass dualwielding combinations, you need
: to kill two mobs of god/dragon difficulty and get a rare drop from each of
: them.
Thing is each time a god or dragon dies it drops *something*. You
might get the exact weapon you want but someone will get something.
You can't compare it to a specific weapon because they drop many
specific weapons that will do the job (for whatever class can use
that one).
JackiePrice
> It does until you factor in the third attack (slam, bash or kick)
> and then it loses. Plus the M2H relies on a higher haste factor
> to do its damage. If you're hasted enough under either option
> to get to the haste cap it also loses out.
>
I was not factoring in a third attack...but your probably right. I was
testing with a ranger, using M2h or dual yaks....kick was not a factor cause
he had it either way. Also right about the haste...SLTW will make the 1
handers superior to the m2h. But usually you don't have SLTW...
>
Billy Shields
:> It does until you factor in the third attack (slam, bash or kick)
Um, rangers can't use the M2H. Also, if the dual ykeshas option
doesn't include an FBSS then it definitely loses.
JackiePrice
> doesn't include an FBSS then it definitely loses.
Someone else mentioned this. The ranger who I was getting my info from
didn't tell me it wasn't his character. I am pissed off...I wanted an M2H
for my ranger...
*sighs*
Its a regular 2 hander...no different from a GZ...we SHOULD be able to use
it.
NBarnes
Rangers can't use some 2hrs, apparently at random. You can't
use the Obsidian Flamberge, for example.
NBarnes
Alasdair Allan
> postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk (Alasdair Allan) wrote
>
> I'd love to see how you figure that Beckon or Bloodmoon can outdamage the
fiery
> avenger. (Briarzephyr no argument, it will, when dualwielded)
>
> Bloodmoon: 18/28 (0.643 ratio, no proc)
> Beckon: 30/42 (0.714 ratio, no proc)
> FA: 33/44 (0.750 ratio, procs a 110DD)
You are forgetting your MAgic Numbers.
Bloodmoon is 44 Magic Number at 50 every 2.8 seconds.
Beckon is 68 Magic Number every 4.2 seconds
Fiery Avenger is 74 Magic Number every 4.4 seconds.
Bloodmooon 15.7 MN/sec
Beckon 16.2 MN/sec
Fiery Avenger 16.8 MN/sec
Remember, at the time of writing a Paladin could not Bash with Fiery Avenger
and bash is worth more than 1.1 MN/sec. So it was correct to say that a
Shadowknight with Bloodmoon would outdamage a Paladin with Fiery Avenger in
purely melée terms.
Plus of course andy Ranger or Warrior with 1 God and 1 Planar weapons dual
wielding will outdamage the Paladin noticeably. With much more obtainable
weapons.
> I mean, really. You might have a case arguing that beckon's lower delay,
giving
> more doubleattack checks, will outdamage the FA.... but frankly I kinda
doubt
> it.
No, thats a Logical Fallacy. Double Attack chances are always irrelevant.
> I'm not talking about "which is overall a better weapon" here, I'm talking
> about pure damage. And the FA is pretty fucking good. It's the best
2H-weapon,
> in the game, in fact, since the ashenbone warhammer doesn't exist.
Its a *great* weapon. It is also a *limit* on what a Paladin can *ever*
have. It is an Ultimate reward. As such, it is *shite*.