The reason why clerics had a monopoly
zui
1)Arguably the worst solo ability in the game.
2)Unstackable in exp groups unlike melee.
Combine these 2 and you see why clerics needed to be so valued.
John M Clancy
"zui" <nosp...@zui.com> wrote in message
news:30R89.784$yd1....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
They are stackable up to a point on mobs that require
a CH rotation.
They solo just fine on undead.
They are not anywhere as near as hard to solo
as a warrior or a rogue.
--
Go here and click every day:
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zui
> a CH rotation.
>
> They solo just fine on undead.
> They are not anywhere as near as hard to solo
> as a warrior or a rogue.
I was talking about exp groups. Solo fine on undead? check out the mana to
dmg ratio, even worse are the resists rates on cleric undead dd's. Far less
mana effiecient than a druids dd and dot's that work on anything and no
snare. And how many good soloable undead spots are there in the game?
Rogues can solo well at level 60, especially backstabbing casters when they
are casting along with chaotic frontal backstab. Outdoors work on instill
doubt and get a SBD snare and fear backstab.
Warriors can solo pretty well if equipped right. I soloed my warrior about
70% of the way to level 57. Truncheon of doom is 50% slow and if your lucky
enough to have a fungi and switch to 2 bloodpoints after Truncheon processes
soloing for a warrior becomes trivial.
John M Clancy
> > They are stackable up to a point on mobs that require
> > a CH rotation.
> >
> > They solo just fine on undead.
> > They are not anywhere as near as hard to solo
> > as a warrior or a rogue.
>
> I was talking about exp groups.
Convienient you forgot to include your statement numbered 1
in your original post.
Let's see:
>> 1)Arguably the worst solo ability in the game.
Seems like you were talking about solo ability to me.
Or does solo mean group in your native language.
> Solo fine on undead? check out the mana to
> dmg ratio, even worse are the resists rates on cleric undead dd's. Far less
> mana effiecient than a druids dd and dot's that work on anything and no
> snare.
Hell why stop there lets compare them to Necros and Shaman.
Then then their spells really suck.
I said they can solo just fine. I didn't say they could solo as well
as druids or other good solo classes.
> And how many good soloable undead spots are there in the game?
>
> Rogues can solo well at level 60, especially backstabbing casters when they
> are casting along with chaotic frontal backstab. Outdoors work on instill
> doubt and get a SBD snare and fear backstab.
>
> Warriors can solo pretty well if equipped right. I soloed my warrior about
> 70% of the way to level 57. Truncheon of doom is 50% slow and if your lucky
> enough to have a fungi and switch to 2 bloodpoints after Truncheon processes
> soloing for a warrior becomes trivial.
LOL You gotta be fucking kidding me.
Truncheon of Doom and a Fungi? Oh yeah those fall of trees
in misty thicket I forgot.
Let's outfit the cleric with similar uber gear then.
Lets compare the down time and exp per hour. Its a hell
of a lot faster to med back a full bar of Cleric mana than
it is to sit on your ass as a warrior or rogue waiting for
your hit points to come back.
Every class 'can' solo to some extent or another.
But Clerics being the 'worst'? Don't buy it.
Ben Haddick
You're a cleric right?
Lance Berg
zui wrote:
> The reason clerics had a monopoly in groups and raids is simply 2 reasons.
>
> 1)Arguably the worst solo ability in the game.
>
Anything is arguable.. but you'd have to argue long and hard to convince
me of that. I soloed at least half of each level from 44 to 60, and a good
deal prior to that. All you need is a movement speed boost, either
buying SOW, SOW potions, or TBoots/JBoots, and its a simple matter
to root, nuke, run, root, nuke, run... elementary kiting. Root is cheap, and
cleric DD ratios don't suck all that bad.
Compare to a warrior or better still a rogue? Main reason clerics don't solo
is not that they can't, but that they tend to find groups so easily that
there's
no reason to.
> 2)Unstackable in exp groups unlike melee.
You don't really want more than one of most melee classes in a group
either. You got cleric, chanter, porter to start with, leaving 3 slots open.
Now you want a sponge... but paladin, warrior, and shadowknight
damage output sort of suck, so you only want one of the above. That only
leaves two slots and half the classes in the game to pick from. I guess
you -could- take two of something, while you wouldn't want a second
cleric so much... but it isn't really that big a deal.
>
> Combine these 2 and you see why clerics needed to be so valued.
I remember when clerics were valued; back when they were one
of the rarest classes out there, and tank gear wasn't up to enough
HP and damage amelioration that a shaman slow/heal combo
wasn't usually sufficient. Now you'll frequently see clerics of
all levels LFG just as long as anyone else. Fortunately, since
we -can- solo quite happily, there's no need for us to whine.
Where clerics are needed is not in exp groups, its in raids. Sadly,
raids don't give clerics much exp, since whatever group they
are in is short one damage producer, so they are rarely in the
KS group. Thus, making them "vital" doesn't really do them
much good at all.
Bergh
Blew
> Where clerics are needed is not in exp groups, its in raids. Sadly,
> raids don't give clerics much exp, since whatever group they
> are in is short one damage producer, so they are rarely in the
> KS group. Thus, making them "vital" doesn't really do them
> much good at all.
>
> Bergh
This has always made me wonder why Verant capped the maximum number of
players in a group at 6. In large raids wouldn't it make more sense to
allow more than 6 players to share the exp of a kill so that Cerics and
other classes which aren't doing the damage get some exp too?
A feature which would allow the splitting of exp among multiple groups
seems like it would be trivial to implement and very useful to players.
Lance Berg
Blew wrote:
I certainly agree here. Raids generally consist of one or two groups
getting all the exp from several groups worth of killing, which is often
more exp per hour than they would have gotten on an "exp camp",
but its very rare to find a raid concerned about sharing the exp around.
The constant response is "raids aren't about exp" unless of course
you happen to be in the exp group.. then you stay real quiet and
pretend you can't see your exp bar, just hope you don't ding and
someone notices.
I do think you'd see more trouble setting this up than you think,
you wouldn't want exp on mobs to be shared up based on damage
done, say, or else clerics would (under normal circumstances) never
see any. You wouldn't want it shared up equally, or you could
powerlevel people by putting them in raid mode with you and letting
them just suck up exp, since they aren't grouped with you. I'm
not saying it can't be done, but you would need a fair and equitable
system for it that wouldn't make PLing too much easier than it is now.
Bergh
Brian Hance
>The constant response is "raids aren't about exp" unless of course
>you happen to be in the exp group.. then you stay real quiet and
>pretend you can't see your exp bar, just hope you don't ding and
>someone notices.
Like hell.
Our guild alliance decided to do a sort of raid on Umbral a while
back. Had enough for about 4 and a half gorups. I showed up a little
late and got put in the "extra" group. There were only three of us.
A 55 wizard, a 60 rogue, and me (52 druid at the time).
We got every kill. I spent WEEKS giving my guildies a hard time about
that. :-)
--
Brian Hance
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't mind if you don't like my manners. I don't like them myself.
They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings."
Humphrey Bogart from THE BIG SLEEP
Adam Russell
"Blew" <bl...@NOSPAMelfstone.be> wrote in message
news:3D647FA8...@NOSPAMelfstone.be...
> Lance Berg wrote:
> > Where clerics are needed is not in exp groups, its in raids. Sadly,
> > raids don't give clerics much exp, since whatever group they
> > are in is short one damage producer, so they are rarely in the
> > KS group. Thus, making them "vital" doesn't really do them
> > much good at all.
If you have a cleric in the main melee group (KS?) then they have one less
damage producer, but your raid still has the same # of melees so I don't see
the point of not including the cleric. Seems to me that there should be a
cleric in every group so he can keep tabs on all melee's health bars. I
haven't been to many raids, but for the ones I have been on it was like
that.
John Waters
news:3D64D667...@dejazzd.com...
> I certainly agree here. Raids generally consist of one or two groups
> getting all the exp from several groups worth of killing, which is often
> more exp per hour than they would have gotten on an "exp camp",
> but its very rare to find a raid concerned about sharing the exp around.
Why should they worry about it, & who goes on raids expecting experience
anyway?. Equal Dispersion of exp , & EXP in general is not the purpose of
an raid. Raids usualy concern getting specific items that, ppl their
volunteered to help someone with etc.
Regards, John Waters
James Grahame
news:um7u5rc...@news.supernews.com...
> "zui" <nosp...@zui.com> wrote in message
> news:p_R89.1554$HJ1....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>
> Seems like you were talking about solo ability to me.
> Or does solo mean group in your native language.
>
> > Solo fine on undead? check out the mana to
> > dmg ratio, even worse are the resists rates on cleric undead dd's. Far
less
> > mana effiecient than a druids dd and dot's that work on anything and no
> > snare.
>
> Hell why stop there lets compare them to Necros and Shaman.
> Then then their spells really suck.
>
> I said they can solo just fine. I didn't say they could solo as well
> as druids or other good solo classes.
Clerics without access to a Manastone and a Faithstone solo worse than
BST, RNG, PAL, SK, MNK, WIZ, DRU, SHM, ENC, MAG, NEC, BRD with similar gear.
Wow, that doesn't look so hot, does it? If you equip them well enough, WAR
would also out-solo a cleric.
> > And how many good soloable undead spots are there in the game?
> >
> > Rogues can solo well at level 60, especially backstabbing casters when
they
> > are casting along with chaotic frontal backstab. Outdoors work on
instill
> > doubt and get a SBD snare and fear backstab.
> >
> > Warriors can solo pretty well if equipped right. I soloed my warrior
about
> > 70% of the way to level 57. Truncheon of doom is 50% slow and if your
lucky
> > enough to have a fungi and switch to 2 bloodpoints after Truncheon
processes
> > soloing for a warrior becomes trivial.
>
> LOL You gotta be fucking kidding me.
> Truncheon of Doom and a Fungi? Oh yeah those fall of trees
> in misty thicket I forgot.
See my comments above. At least a melee has gear options that allow them
to solo well. The only gear that can really make a cleric into a solo
machine is the aforementioned Manastone - and unlike the Truncheon and
Fungi, Manastones no longer drop (and have never dropped on some servers).
> Lets compare the down time and exp per hour. Its a hell
> of a lot faster to med back a full bar of Cleric mana than
> it is to sit on your ass as a warrior or rogue waiting for
> your hit points to come back.
The solo warriors and rogues I know are bandaging up a storm, and/or
using their rare drop Heart of Fungus with Chloroplast on it, and/or
clicking on their 100 point healing Kunark BPs. They aren't sitting on their
asses. The cleric, though, has no choice - without a second box, he has to
sit on his ass.
> Every class 'can' solo to some extent or another.
> But Clerics being the 'worst'? Don't buy it.
Look at my list of classes that solo better. Look at the very short list
of classes that are worse - WAR, ROG. Note how with proper gear, those two
classes become better than the cleric at soloing. Discuss.
James
hughes
> BST, RNG, PAL, SK, MNK, WIZ, DRU, SHM, ENC, MAG, NEC, BRD with similar
gear.
> Wow, that doesn't look so hot, does it? If you equip them well enough, WAR
> would also out-solo a cleric.
thats not exactly saying much though. If you equip ANY melee well enough
they will always out solo WIZ, DRU, SHM, MAG, NEC.
Soloing is the combination of dammage mitigation and dammage doing. Warriors
can reach a 100DPS over extended periods of time. No caster ever can without
a GOOD pet.
Vladesch
news:f0a99.6061$bv5.6...@news0.telusplanet.net...
Crap. Give me a pair of jboots and a bit more time than a druid or wiz, and
I can solo a cleric past 50. Wont be much fun, but I could do it.
How is a manastone going to make soloing "possible". A speed up in pulling
maybe, but its not going to unlock new mobs to you.
-Martin
news:AZi99.30176$7V6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Crap. Give me a pair of jboots and a bit more time than a druid or wiz,
and
> I can solo a cleric past 50. Wont be much fun, but I could do it.
> How is a manastone going to make soloing "possible". A speed up in pulling
> maybe, but its not going to unlock new mobs to you.
yes it is.
mobs have something called regeneration. when their HP is regening faster
than you can med to nuke them, how are you going to kill them?
-m
Lance Berg
-Martin wrote:
I"m still soloing dark blue mobs at 60. There are some HP regen mobs
out there that might make this impossible, but there's little out there
under level 50 that I can't kill one of. This has been true since at least
my mid 40s, with TBoots and my own buffs only, I can kill pretty much
any lower dark blue mob I can single pull outdoors.
A manastone would cut my down time, and perhaps raise my kill speed
a little (some mobs I do have to med a bit to get sufficient mana to
finish the job) but wouldn't do much to change my target list.
Given a full range of FT items, focus items, and the mana regen boost
off the 8th shawl, and I'm sure I could solo more effectively than
several of the other classes on your "solo better than a cleric" list,
just as I"ll grant you a nicely equipped warrior can outsolo a normally
equipped cleric. The rogue... I'm not sure I'll ever be willing to
grant you the rogue can outsolo a cleric.
Bergh
Lance Berg
John Waters wrote:
Hmm, either you are in the Exp group, and lying to preserve the
party line, or you aren't, and have swallowed the party line.
Turns out raids often involve a bardload of exp for a chosen few,
and none at all for the rest of the masses. They may not be
"about" exp, but unless you are going after single target outdoor
spawn mobs, where you don't spend an hour clearing out trash
to get to them, there's exp there. Did you think that just because
you didn't specifically come for it it vanished into the ether?
Somebody is getting (exp) rich on the backs of the proletariate
Bergh
Lance Berg
Adam Russell wrote:
The main melee group is not the KS group. The KS classes are not
sponges, they are damage Dealers. Warriors, SK, and Paladins
(sponges, ie absorbers of damage) suck up the damage and do some
damage of their own, but monks, rogues, and wizards outdamage them
by quite some distance. You'd think it would be a simple matter
to spread the damage dealers out some so that the kills don't all
fall to one group, but you'll usually find, if you can get people to
talk, that one group gets 90% of the kills... and that group usually
has multiple damage dealers and rarely has a cleric. Even if a
damage dealer gets aggro, he doesn't need a cleric as a healer,
druid and shaman will do fine to keep him alive long enough for
a sponge to take it back. Druid preferred, because while druids
aren't on the ultimate damage dealer list, they certainly can
contribute quite a bit of damage via a couple nukes.
Actually a cleric can do the same thing, unfortunately clerics are
the backbone of a raid as far as healing goes, so its rare we can
afford to drop a couple nukes per kill just in order to keep getting
the exp.
Bergh
-Martin
> A manastone would cut my down time, and perhaps raise my kill speed
> a little (some mobs I do have to med a bit to get sufficient mana to
> finish the job) but wouldn't do much to change my target list.
>
> Given a full range of FT items, focus items, and the mana regen boost
huh?????
A manastone would "perhaps" increase your kill speed a "little", but a full
range of FT would make you a soloing machine??
FT is capped at 15.. getting 15 outside of a big guild isnt all that easy
A manastone is the equivalent of something like flowing thought *ten*
/boggle
-m
-Martin
> has multiple damage dealers and rarely has a cleric. Even if a
> damage dealer gets aggro, he doesn't need a cleric as a healer,
> druid and shaman will do fine to keep him alive long enough for
> a sponge to take it back. Druid preferred, because while druids
> aren't on the ultimate damage dealer list, they certainly can
> contribute quite a bit of damage via a couple nukes.
Maybe on the raids you do...
Im always with a cleric. if theres no spare clerics, I'll take my own. If
im not getting exp, I know for fact that the guy who is getting exp has got
a cleric in group (his 24/7 cleric bot)
The ONLY group I know who is happy having no cleric, is our 5 man wizard
team who group with a druid
I've had my cleric and shaman bots in my group in the past, and still been
getting exp.
-m
Ben wilson
hughes <hugh...@nospamearthlink.net> writes
>> Clerics without access to a Manastone and a Faithstone solo worse than
>> BST, RNG, PAL, SK, MNK, WIZ, DRU, SHM, ENC, MAG, NEC, BRD with similar
>gear.
>> Wow, that doesn't look so hot, does it? If you equip them well enough, WAR
>> would also out-solo a cleric.
>
>thats not exactly saying much though. If you equip ANY melee well enough
>they will always out solo WIZ, DRU, SHM, MAG, NEC.
COOL! I didn't realise that!
I've got access to just about every melee item in the game. Obviously
I've been making some stupid choices along the way with loot. Could you
put together a list of items I could get to outsolo a wiz quadding in
ME, or an epic mage in Seb?
For reference, I've got Hategiver, Bloodfrenzy, Braided Strands of
Corrupted Mana, Jaelen's Katana, Sceptre of Destruction, and Primal
Warsword for damage. (Gauldrek and Tae Ew war maul for DSed mobs)
Willsapper, Truncheon of Doom for slows
Fungi tunic, Dain 10th Ring, Latent AoB, rightclick AoB, and ragefire
arms for regen and DSes.
5300+hps and 1400+ac unbuffed
Also, I can bandage to 100% and have a rightclick summon 20 bandages
Obviously I'm doing something wrong, because I can't outsolo most of the
classes you've named above, and any adds either kill me or reduce me to
major healing downtime.
I'd love to know what I should get hold of in order to "always out solo
WIZ, DRU, SHM, MAG, NEC."
--
DDD H H ][ DEMORGOTH DEMONIA ][ Tanked from start to finish:
D D H H ][ ][ Ventani, AoW, Emp Ssra
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D D H H ][ <Dark Horizon> Officer ][ Tanking hitlist: Aten
DDD H H ][ Zebuxoruk Server ][ Wishlist: Gaunts of Crimson Sigal
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=123069
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me
> Blew wrote:
> > A feature which would allow the splitting of exp among multiple groups
> > seems like it would be trivial to implement and very useful to players.
>
> I certainly agree here. Raids generally consist of one or two groups
> getting all the exp from several groups worth of killing, which is often
> more exp per hour than they would have gotten on an "exp camp",
> but its very rare to find a raid concerned about sharing the exp around.
I seem to recall something on the Sony boards a while back about
Verant working on code to share exp among all raid groups present. I
think this may be the /army command, which is currently not
functional. Check it out for yourself: type "/help normal", and sure
enough, one of the commands listed is /army.
Of course, the diluted experience gained would be miniscule, and most
would probably not see a single tick of movement in the exp bar. But
I sure would like to have *something* to show for some of the raids I
go on where there is no loot available for my cleric.
> I do think you'd see more trouble setting this up than you think,
> you wouldn't want exp on mobs to be shared up based on damage
> done, say, or else clerics would (under normal circumstances) never
> see any. You wouldn't want it shared up equally, or you could
> powerlevel people by putting them in raid mode with you and letting
> them just suck up exp, since they aren't grouped with you. I'm
> not saying it can't be done, but you would need a fair and equitable
> system for it that wouldn't make PLing too much easier than it is now.
This may very well be why the /army code has not yet been implemented.
Jerem, 51 baby raiding cleric, Quellious
Jim Monk
I remember that too.
However if the group xp bounuses scaled then a 50 strong raid team would
be getting what a 100% bounus on all kills.
So if the raid had to clear 50 mobs for the raid then each player would
end up getting about two mob's worth of xp.
Not totally trivial I guess.
Jim
Dream King
>Turns out raids often involve a bardload of exp for a chosen few,
>and none at all for the rest of the masses. They may not be
>"about" exp, but unless you are going after single target outdoor
>spawn mobs, where you don't spend an hour clearing out trash
>to get to them, there's exp there. Did you think that just because
>you didn't specifically come for it it vanished into the ether?
>
>Somebody is getting (exp) rich on the backs of the proletariate
So somebody is the KS group on a raid. Big deal. Unless we're talking
something like Tunare where you have to clear lots of mobs, the xp
gained on most raids by the KS group isn't really enough to make them
"rich".
I dont think he's saying the xp vanishes. I think he's saying that
there's a bigger purpose to raids so don't concern yourself with whether
you're getting xp or not.
Dream King
>The main melee group is not the KS group. The KS classes are not
>sponges, they are damage Dealers. Warriors, SK, and Paladins
>(sponges, ie absorbers of damage) suck up the damage and do some
>damage of their own, but monks, rogues, and wizards outdamage them
>by quite some distance. You'd think it would be a simple matter
>to spread the damage dealers out some so that the kills don't all
>fall to one group
You'd think so but you'd be wrong. The raid leader isn't going to spend
all that time to balance out groups just to spread xp around. xp is not
the purpose of the raid. The purpose is to drop shit dead and steal
their loots. And you want to do this in the most efficient manner
possible. That's the raidleaders job. Not to listen to a bunch of people
whining that they aren't getting xp.
> but you'll usually find, if you can get people to
>talk, that one group gets 90% of the kills... and that group usually
>has multiple damage dealers and rarely has a cleric.
Usually if any group in our guild gets two wizards in it, they end up
being the KS group. It's hard for melee to outdamage people that are
landing 4k+ critical nukes on mobs. A single wizard group will probably
KS 75% of the time if they have a couple damage dealers. Nerf Wizards!
Richard
news:rihcmugkrjuht12n0...@4ax.com...
Last time I went to Chardok, I was grouped with two Paladins, and Enchanter,
a Druid, a 51 Wizard, and me at 55. The 51 Wizard was the lowest level
person there. When the wizard was medding, we never got xp, when the wizard
was nuking, we always got xp. We got 50 to 75% of the xp. I love wizards,
when they are grouped with me.
--
Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Luminary of 55 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The
Appointed>
Tainniel, Halfling Warrior of 29 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The Appointed>
Ganwein, Wood Elf Ranger of 15 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The Appointed>
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 15 seasons, Erollisi Marr <Decadence>
Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 21 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The Appointed>
Ben Haddick
"Ben wilson" <bwi...@armoury1.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FiIMjcAe...@armoury1.demon.co.uk...
I think that by "out solo" he means "get more exp in a given time period by
mindlessly slaughtering small mushrooms".
James Grahame
> hughes <hugh...@nospamearthlink.net> writes
> >
> >they will always out solo WIZ, DRU, SHM, MAG, NEC.
>
> COOL! I didn't realise that!
>
> I've got access to just about every melee item in the game. Obviously
> I've been making some stupid choices along the way with loot. Could you
> put together a list of items I could get to outsolo a wiz quadding in
> ME, or an epic mage in Seb?
Obviously I think Hughes is a moron on this. But from your equipment
list....
> For reference, I've got Hategiver, Bloodfrenzy, Braided Strands of
> Corrupted Mana, Jaelen's Katana, Sceptre of Destruction, and Primal
> Warsword for damage. (Gauldrek and Tae Ew war maul for DSed mobs)
> Willsapper, Truncheon of Doom for slows
> Fungi tunic, Dain 10th Ring, Latent AoB, rightclick AoB, and ragefire
> arms for regen and DSes.
> 5300+hps and 1400+ac unbuffed
> Also, I can bandage to 100% and have a rightclick summon 20 bandages
...you're missing an Invigorate item, and something that two of my
guild's warriors actually raced each other to buy in The Bazaar recently:
2HB from Chardok, Herbalist's somethingorother, procs Paralyzing Earth. Let
me just GO TO ALLAKHAZAM'S... yeah, Herbalist's Spade, 39/43 2HB, procs
Paralyzing Earth. Huge for when you get adds.
James
James Grahame
"Vladesch" <sp...@me.not> wrote in message
news:AZi99.30176$7V6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> news:f0a99.6061$bv5.6...@news0.telusplanet.net...
> >
> > them to solo well. The only gear that can really make a cleric into a
solo
> > machine is the aforementioned Manastone - and unlike the Truncheon and
> > Fungi, Manastones no longer drop (and have never dropped on some
servers).
>
> Crap. Give me a pair of jboots and a bit more time than a druid or wiz,
and
> I can solo a cleric past 50. Wont be much fun, but I could do it.
JBoots won't help much, since unless you went DE you have no snare and
our nukes are pretty slow-casting, but go for it. And as I'm proving with
Mandy, I can solo a warrior past 50.
> How is a manastone going to make soloing "possible". A speed up in pulling
> maybe, but its not going to unlock new mobs to you.
It's going to make XP solo preferrable to XP in a group. Right now, I
can solo shrooms in FG with Delores. Single pull with a nuke, then
chain-cast nukes while tanking the thing. At the end, CH myself, then med
for the next one. I'd have to be retarded to do this for long, though,
because I can make XP faster just by grabbing any old melee in the zone and
partnering with them.
Without a Manastone, there's no reason for a sane cleric to solo. It's
miserably slow XP, to the point where just about any other activity
(tradeskills, alts, checking The Bazaar one more time) is a better use of
time. Would a Manastone open up new mobs to me? No, but that's not why I
said a cleric needs one to solo well. Sounds like you might be confusing
"soloing" with "farming". ;-)
James
James Grahame
"-Martin" <vil...@cheerfuldot.com> wrote in message
news:ylp99.1011$997....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> A manastone is the equivalent of something like flowing thought *ten*
Keep going. Let me just do some math, using a bit of rounding on my
self-buffed HPs (4000).
I've Faithstoned to Kaladim, so I can manastone down as low as possible
and not worry about dying. To be careful, I'll just stone 65 times before
each CH (3900 damage). Manastone is insta-click, but I bet it'll take me 14
seconds to do all that clicking what with the anti-spam filter and my finger
speed.
So 24 seconds (14 to click, 10 to CH). 4 ticks. I get back 65x20 mana
from the stone, spend 400 on CH. Net mana in four ticks is 900, or 225 mana
per tick.
So Flowing Thought 225.
James
Lance Berg
-Martin wrote:
While I'm a bit fuzzy on the manastone concept, since to my knowledge
they stopped dropping before my server was even created, I believe
they work like this: Faithstone to old world, use manastone to generate
mana by some means (cannalike? Dunno) then gate back to a hunting
zone.
How does this help me kill anything? Seems to me it doesn't. Practically
eliminates downtime between kills, but does not do a damn thing
to help me with an actual kill. Like having a mod 2 supplier who
insists on remaining in Kaladim, I'd jump at the chance, but wouldn't
consider it helpful for killing any given mob.... well the mod 2 supplier
would at least give me a rod to hold while I gate back.
FT 15, on the other hand, would be better than clarity 2. With clarity
two, I'm able to kill things I couldn't before, and my down time is
cut markably. I theorize, then that FT15, combined with the DD
focus items, would indeed let me kill things I couldn't before, self
buffed, as well as cut my down time between kills.
Would this make me a killing machine? No, I'd still be unable
to compete with a naked druid or a wizard wearing nothing but
TBoots, but I do think I could give average equipped members
of the non-quadding classes a good run for their money in
the exp per hour race.
Bergh
Dream King
Yeah but points off for only working in old world zones. True, a
manastone may get you to 54 or so but after that you need to go to an
expansion continent.
Manastone = overrated item. But I play a melee so don't mind me.
Richard
Bind near where you are hunting, faithstone to Kaladim (In his case),
manastone back to full, gate back. So, you have to add time to zone twice
to the time there, but still, a very effective mana restoration device.
There are some places it won't work, as you can't bind.
Lance Berg
James Grahame wrote:
> "Vladesch" <sp...@me.not> wrote in message
> news:AZi99.30176$7V6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > "James Grahame" <jamesg...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news:f0a99.6061$bv5.6...@news0.telusplanet.net...
> > >
> > > See my comments above. At least a melee has gear options that allow
> > > them to solo well. The only gear that can really make a cleric into a
> solo
> > > machine is the aforementioned Manastone - and unlike the Truncheon and
> > > Fungi, Manastones no longer drop (and have never dropped on some
> servers).
> >
> > Crap. Give me a pair of jboots and a bit more time than a druid or wiz,
> and
> > I can solo a cleric past 50. Wont be much fun, but I could do it.
>
> JBoots won't help much, since unless you went DE you have no snare and
> our nukes are pretty slow-casting, but go for it. And as I'm proving with
> Mandy, I can solo a warrior past 50.
>
JBoots are the KEY to cleric soloing. Nukes are indeed slow casting, but
Root or Immobilize is not. Run out to max root range. Root. Run out to
max nuke range. Nuke till root breaks, repeat. If you aren't faster than
the mobs, you -can- still do this by channeling root... but you'll find you
spend too much mana healing yourself. Or you can use Flash of Light
and root tactics, but this now introduces yet another possible resist, its
functional but "busy"... T/Jboots or SOW make it unnecessary.
>
> > How is a manastone going to make soloing "possible". A speed up in pulling
> > maybe, but its not going to unlock new mobs to you.
>
> It's going to make XP solo preferrable to XP in a group. Right now, I
> can solo shrooms in FG with Delores. Single pull with a nuke, then
> chain-cast nukes while tanking the thing. At the end, CH myself, then med
> for the next one. I'd have to be retarded to do this for long, though,
> because I can make XP faster just by grabbing any old melee in the zone and
> partnering with them.
>
I solo because I have RL activities that can be interrupted for occaisional
killing. Kill mob, sit somewhere safe to med back to full While doing
RL activity, repeat. With a partner, I'd be constantly busy, so no RL
activity would take place. IF I had to sit at the keyboard the whole time
waiting for the mana to med back, this would indeed be an insane waste
of my time... beat out only by the waste of time a warrior would spend
sitting till he got full health.
>
> Without a Manastone, there's no reason for a sane cleric to solo. It's
> miserably slow XP, to the point where just about any other activity
> (tradeskills, alts, checking The Bazaar one more time) is a better use of
> time. Would a Manastone open up new mobs to me? No, but that's not why I
> said a cleric needs one to solo well. Sounds like you might be confusing
> "soloing" with "farming". ;-)
Cleric soloing as I suggest has the same down time as a manastone
one... which is to say none. Why? Because every time I take a break
from RL, I'm FM and ready to go. I'm thinking of faithstoning to
Kaladim from now on to med, though, since the cost of Gating
back isn't a serious one, I can bind closer to my kill spot or heck,
even out in the middle of the Pulling grounds if I like, now that I
have Run 2 so I don't have to worry about being stuck next to a
mob with TBoots off.
Bergh
Lance Berg
Dream King wrote:
> Lance Berg <emp...@dejazzd.com> wrote:
>
> >Turns out raids often involve a bardload of exp for a chosen few,
> >and none at all for the rest of the masses. They may not be
> >"about" exp, but unless you are going after single target outdoor
> >spawn mobs, where you don't spend an hour clearing out trash
> >to get to them, there's exp there. Did you think that just because
> >you didn't specifically come for it it vanished into the ether?
> >
> >Somebody is getting (exp) rich on the backs of the proletariate
>
> So somebody is the KS group on a raid. Big deal. Unless we're talking
> something like Tunare where you have to clear lots of mobs, the xp
> gained on most raids by the KS group isn't really enough to make them
> "rich".
Depends on the raid, to be sure, but I'd say 2/3rd of the raids I've been
on have involved killing an awful lot of mobs, and the 1/3rd that
haven't have only taken a short time to complete, so they didn't eat
much exping time anyway.
>
>
> I dont think he's saying the xp vanishes. I think he's saying that
> there's a bigger purpose to raids so don't concern yourself with whether
> you're getting xp or not.
I think he and everyone else suggesting that in a raid where
a lot of exp giving mobs are dropped, there isn't any reason
to concern yourself with the exp, are either GETTING the
exp, and part of the conspiracy to pretend it doesn't matter,
or NOT getting the exp, and is a dupe of the system.
I've been in the KS group, its often better exp than a real
exp group, and the loot is exactly the same for members
of the exp group as it is for everyone else on the raid.
If you raid once a week and exp 5 days a week, this isn't
really anything to get bothered about. So the "damage"
classes get a bonus for raiding that you don't. But if, as
I have from time to time, you raid 5 days a week and
go out for exp perhaps once, then the "damage" guys
are getting 6 times the exp you are!
If exp was shared around fairly, then raiding would be
just as viable (well probably a bit less viable) an activity
for exp purposes as most real exp groups, and ideas
like multigroup AE would also be quite functional.
Bergh
Tim Smith
> I solo because I have RL activities that can be interrupted for
> occaisional killing. Kill mob, sit somewhere safe to med back to full
> While doing RL activity, repeat. With a partner, I'd be constantly busy,
> so no RL
That's who my Wizard does much of his soloing. The RL activity is usually
reading a book or watching TV. (A Tivo or UltimateTV is really nice for
this...notice I've medded to full, hit "pause" on the TV, kill something,
start medding, hit "play" on the TV).
For people planning to play this way, picking a race that has "hide" can
help. The "sit somewhere safe" part is a lot easier with hide. :-)
--Tim Smith
Valien
wrote:
> But if, as
>I have from time to time, you raid 5 days a week and
>go out for exp perhaps once, then the "damage" guys
>are getting 6 times the exp you are!
Been there, done that, and I only have a T-Shirt to show for it :-P
Best part is when there is added pressure to level-up so that the
guild can take on tougher challenges.
James Grahame
> James Grahame wrote:
> > "Vladesch" <sp...@me.not> wrote in message
> > news:AZi99.30176$7V6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > >
wiz,
> > and
> > > I can solo a cleric past 50. Wont be much fun, but I could do it.
> >
> > JBoots won't help much, since unless you went DE you have no snare
and
> > our nukes are pretty slow-casting, but go for it. And as I'm proving
with
> > Mandy, I can solo a warrior past 50.
>
> JBoots are the KEY to cleric soloing.
/boggle - they are?
> Nukes are indeed slow casting, but
> Root or Immobilize is not. Run out to max root range. Root. Run out to
> max nuke range. Nuke till root breaks, repeat. If you aren't faster than
> the mobs, you -can- still do this by channeling root... but you'll find
you
> spend too much mana healing yourself.
Ok, so you're using the distance to avoid healing yourself. Fair enough.
I never had a problem with waiting until the end of the kill to heal, or
dropping a single heal on myself over the course of the fight. What're ye
wearin', Bergh, tin foil? And to deflect the "but ur uber" charges, that was
back at low levels like 35 and 44, when I was just another ghetto HP cleric.
> > > How is a manastone going to make soloing "possible". A speed up in
pulling
> > > maybe, but its not going to unlock new mobs to you.
> >
> > It's going to make XP solo preferrable to XP in a group. Right now,
I
> > can solo shrooms in FG with Delores. Single pull with a nuke, then
> > chain-cast nukes while tanking the thing. At the end, CH myself, then
med
> > for the next one. I'd have to be retarded to do this for long, though,
> > because I can make XP faster just by grabbing any old melee in the zone
and
> > partnering with them.
>
> I solo because I have RL activities that can be interrupted for
occaisional
> killing.
Ok, so you don't really give a damn how slowly you kill stuff as long as
the wash gets done. Fair enough, but for those of us that would like to get
that AA point some time this year efficiency is a big issue. ;-)
> > Without a Manastone, there's no reason for a sane cleric to solo.
It's
> > miserably slow XP, to the point where just about any other activity
> > (tradeskills, alts, checking The Bazaar one more time) is a better use
of
> > time. Would a Manastone open up new mobs to me? No, but that's not why I
> > said a cleric needs one to solo well. Sounds like you might be confusing
> > "soloing" with "farming". ;-)
>
> Cleric soloing as I suggest has the same down time as a manastone
> one... which is to say none.
"Down time" = "time not spent getting XP". If you've found a neat way to
spend your down time so it isn't a complete waste of your life, more power
to you. I read People magazine while waiting for an alt to med up. But I
don't pretend that reading People magazine is helping me achieve the next
goal I have in EQ.
> I'm thinking of faithstoning to
> Kaladim from now on to med, though, since the cost of Gating
> back isn't a serious one, I can bind closer to my kill spot or heck,
> even out in the middle of the Pulling grounds if I like, now that I
> have Run 2 so I don't have to worry about being stuck next to a
> mob with TBoots off.
It's also great if you need to go AFK for an extended period of time,
like to the store. Racial hide used to be the AFK method of choice for a
cleric. Now, it's all about the Faithstone.
James
TwoHead
>
> /boggle - they are?
>
> > Nukes are indeed slow casting, but
> > Root or Immobilize is not. Run out to max root range. Root. Run out to
> > max nuke range. Nuke till root breaks, repeat. If you aren't faster than
> > the mobs, you -can- still do this by channeling root... but you'll find
> you
> > spend too much mana healing yourself.
>
> Ok, so you're using the distance to avoid healing yourself. Fair enough.
> I never had a problem with waiting until the end of the kill to heal, or
> dropping a single heal on myself over the course of the fight. What're ye
> wearin', Bergh, tin foil? And to deflect the "but ur uber" charges, that was
> back at low levels like 35 and 44, when I was just another ghetto HP cleric.
>
hehe, well just to really deflect any "but ur uber" charges, I solo
without J/T-boots or sow pots myself most of the time. Maybe one out of
4 fights require a heal before the mob is dead, but most of the time I
just regen while medding, though with BAoR hp does lag behind a bit.
This isn't even using using root/nuke but rather undead rotting which
requires you to get a lot closer to recast dots than you should expect
to be if just nuking due to small casting range on the dot.
th
Davian
>
>
> Obviously I think Hughes is a moron on this. But from your equipment
> list....
>
*snip /drooled over equipment*
>
> ...you're missing an Invigorate item, and something that two of my
> guild's warriors actually raced each other to buy in The Bazaar recently:
No, he's not.
Bandages are over twice as fast as any invigorate item a warrior can use,
and he can banadge all the way to full.
hughes
by
> mindlessly slaughtering small mushrooms".
That would indeed be correct. Since the best of equipment always requires
raid force to acquire the only soloing criteria is exp per time period.
Im sorry if mr wilson felt cheated that hunting gorgana scouts solo for his
shard was a bit annoying. With his obvious good equipment to choose from I
would suggest the grey, or fg, or katta.
Lance Berg
James Grahame wrote:
>
> > JBoots are the KEY to cleric soloing.
>
> /boggle - they are?
>
> > Nukes are indeed slow casting, but
> > Root or Immobilize is not. Run out to max root range. Root. Run out to
> > max nuke range. Nuke till root breaks, repeat. If you aren't faster than
> > the mobs, you -can- still do this by channeling root... but you'll find
> you
> > spend too much mana healing yourself.
>
> Ok, so you're using the distance to avoid healing yourself. Fair enough.
> I never had a problem with waiting until the end of the kill to heal, or
> dropping a single heal on myself over the course of the fight. What're ye
> wearin', Bergh, tin foil? And to deflect the "but ur uber" charges, that was
> back at low levels like 35 and 44, when I was just another ghetto HP cleric.
>
Decent but not astounding armor.. .but any mana not spent killing the mob
is mana wasted, and roots are a lot cheaper than heals. While I've tanked
mobs to death in order to keep my union card (defensive skill) up, I
generally prefer not getting hit unless I meant to,
>
> > I solo because I have RL activities that can be interrupted for
> occaisional
> > killing.
>
> Ok, so you don't really give a damn how slowly you kill stuff as long as
> the wash gets done. Fair enough, but for those of us that would like to get
> that AA point some time this year efficiency is a big issue. ;-)
>
You are looking at this backwards; I'm getting exp while doing the
chores, while the alternative is to NOT get exp while doing chores.
>
> > Cleric soloing as I suggest has the same down time as a manastone
> > one... which is to say none.
>
> "Down time" = "time not spent getting XP". If you've found a neat way to
> spend your down time so it isn't a complete waste of your life, more power
> to you. I read People magazine while waiting for an alt to med up. But I
> don't pretend that reading People magazine is helping me achieve the next
> goal I have in EQ.
Ah, but if you were required to read People for your job, or your wife
wanted you to make sure to get People read... you see what I'm saying,
its not that I"m interrupting EQ to do RL, its that I can squeeze in some
EQ into my RL schedule. Thus, it IS helping me to achieve my EQ goals,
since the alternative would be to read People all day and not play EQ
at all.
>
> > I'm thinking of faithstoning to
> > Kaladim from now on to med, though, since the cost of Gating
> > back isn't a serious one, I can bind closer to my kill spot or heck,
> > even out in the middle of the Pulling grounds if I like, now that I
> > have Run 2 so I don't have to worry about being stuck next to a
> > mob with TBoots off.
>
> It's also great if you need to go AFK for an extended period of time,
> like to the store. Racial hide used to be the AFK method of choice for a
> cleric. Now, it's all about the Faithstone.
>
> James
Yep, was another reason I kicked myself for not being born a DE,
missing Hide asnd Sneak. UV, which people crow about, doesn't
interest me, dwarf vision seems fine, as in "oh, is it night out? Sorry
I didn't notice"
On the other hand, I'm so steamed about the snare item that Hide
doesn't really torture me much.
Bergh
Dream King
>
>"James Grahame" <jamesg...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:lXu99.988$M6.3...@news2.telusplanet.net...
>> ...you're missing an Invigorate item, and something that two of my
>> guild's warriors actually raced each other to buy in The Bazaar recently:
>
>No, he's not.
>
>Bandages are over twice as fast as any invigorate item a warrior can use,
>and he can banadge all the way to full.
Sure if you want to carry around 600 bandages wherever you go.
Wolfie
"Dream King" wrote
> Sure if you want to carry around 600 bandages wherever you go.
Which isn't an issue with an item that summons bandages, as
mentioned in Ben's post...
@ndrew
Ummmm no ... you just use your skinning knife and get them when you need
them o)
regards
@ndrew
Tim Smith
> Yep, was another reason I kicked myself for not being born a DE, missing
> Hide asnd Sneak. UV, which people crow about, doesn't
Dark Elves don't have Sneak. It's the Halflings that get both Sneak and
Hide.
--Tim Smith
Dream King
Lance Berg
Tim Smith wrote:
Really? Well sneak is hardly crucial, although its handy to be
able to use vendors pretty much at a whim. Since only rogues
can really "hide and sneak" even if other classes get both
skills due to class/race combo, the ability to move around with
real invis only exists for them. Hide, though, is a solo and AFK
cleric's best friend... Kaladim and gate back costs me about 30
seconds per mob of med time... on the other hand, Hide capped
at 50 isn't really much better, since you have to activate it about
three times on average to get it working.
Bergh
Sean Kennedy
Embalmers Knife takes care of that.
Ben Haddick
But you can sit and med while you get hidden, even with 'real' invis I use
racial hide fairly often.
Annoyingly though it doesn't work on undead.
Mark A. Rimer
news:jeqfmu0v63mkod4ge...@4ax.com...
> >Bandages are over twice as fast as any invigorate item a warrior can use,
> >and he can banadge all the way to full.
>
> Sure if you want to carry around 600 bandages wherever you go.
Sounded like he had a medic's pouch from Grieg's...which isn't
even as hard to use as the summoning knife.
Medic's Pouch is right-click bandages.
ryouseika
locu...@bellsouth.net says...
What are the chances of sneak/hiding into Grieg's and asking to loot one
of these? Just asking because I notice they're listed not only as lore
and no drop on Ally's, but as a common drop as well.
Ryou
Lance Berg
Ben Haddick wrote:
Spell invis and just plain Hide isn't "real" invis, only, ONLY rogue
hide and sneak works on all non-see invis mobs. Thats
real invis, all other forms are a pale substitute.
I think invis should stack, so that you could have both invis
and invis to undead on. This would be a little tricky to
arrange, and of course there would be no way to cast both
on yourself, but it would make ITU useful in zones with
a mixed population of live and dead, while currently the
only zone I can think of in the whole game where ITU is
truely useful is LGuk.
On the other hand, that would drastically reduce demand
for rogues as body pullers and so forth
Bergh
Ben Haddick
"ryouseika" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17d2c285832e5dda989835@shawnews...
It's not common, that's just Allakhazam's default setting, and no one kills
in Griegs except on the way in to Grieg/Servitor, and it's a nice enough
item that *someone* on the Grieg/Servitor raid would want it.
Ben Haddick
Unrest for the newbies (wolf form works better =p)
ToFS 1,2,6a (maybe higher, never been past the port in on 6b)
HS... kinda, mixed undead/live, but IVU can get you past a room if just
undead are up. (also useful for zoning in in case 2 sepulchers are up)
Lance Berg
Ben Haddick wrote:
Marginal usefulness here, I suppose, its been so long since I
was low enough to worry about this place that I forget. Do
people still exp there?
>
> ToFS 1,2,6a (maybe higher, never been past the port in on 6b)
>
> HS... kinda, mixed undead/live, but IVU can get you past a room if just
> undead are up. (also useful for zoning in in case 2 sepulchers are up)
HS is one of those mixed zones. While LGuk has only a few spots
where you would not be able to get by with just ITU, HS is packed
full of them unless you happen to get lucky, its not reliable.
There are lots of zones where regular invis/camo will work on pretty much
every mob, but only a half-handful of zones where ITU comes even close
to this degree of functionality. I was particularly pleased to see mobs
in the Grey which can be damaged by anti-undead spells but see thru
ITU and are fooled by camo. Show me a zone (or even a mob) where
live mobs see thru invis but are fooled by ITU!
Bergh
Davian
"Ben Haddick" <bhad...@SPAMISBADhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:umihgs8...@corp.supernews.com...
> > What are the chances of sneak/hiding into Grieg's and asking to loot one
> > of these? Just asking because I notice they're listed not only as lore
> > and no drop on Ally's, but as a common drop as well.
>
> It's not common, that's just Allakhazam's default setting, and no one
kills
> in Griegs except on the way in to Grieg/Servitor, and it's a nice enough
> item that *someone* on the Grieg/Servitor raid would want it.
>
Seconded.
I've done both Exp groups (not an optimal zone for this, but makes up for it
in fun) and raiding in Griegs several times. I've yet to see this item
drop there.
Dream King
>In article <w%8a9.77265$CD2.4...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>,
>locu...@bellsouth.net says...
>> Medic's Pouch is right-click bandages.
>
>What are the chances of sneak/hiding into Grieg's and asking to loot one
>of these? Just asking because I notice they're listed not only as lore
>and no drop on Ally's, but as a common drop as well.
Not very good since nobody goes there. And if they do, this item will
more than likely not rot. You're probably better off going for the
bandage summoner thing in Chardok from Herbalist (I think).
Richard
news:CmH99.4260$ob2.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Well, the only soloing criteria for you maybe. I like to explore and have
fun. Mindlessly slaughtering the same mob over and over does not seem to
fall into that category.
--
Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Luminary of 55 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The
Appointed>
Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 30 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The
Appointed>
Ganwein, Wood Elf Ranger of 15 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The Appointed>
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 15 seasons, Erollisi Marr <Decadence>
Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 21 seasons, Erollisi Marr <The Appointed>
Ben wilson
<morp...@cent.com> writes
>>> ...you're missing an Invigorate item, and something that two of my
>>> guild's warriors actually raced each other to buy in The Bazaar recently:
>>
>>No, he's not.
>>
>>Bandages are over twice as fast as any invigorate item a warrior can use,
>>and he can banadge all the way to full.
>
> Sure if you want to carry around 600 bandages wherever you go.
Did you miss the part where I said I had a rightclick summon 20 bandages
item?
--
DDD H H ][ DEMORGOTH DEMONIA ][ Tanked from start to finish:
D D H H ][ ][ Ventani, AoW, Emp Ssra
D D HHHH ][ L60 Warlord [Ogre] ][
D D H H ][ <Dark Horizon> Officer ][ Tanking hitlist: Aten
DDD H H ][ Zebuxoruk Server ][ Wishlist: Gaunts of Crimson Sigal
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=123069
http://darkhorizon.angrybunni.org/
Ben wilson
<jamesg...@shaw.ca> writes
>> For reference, I've got Hategiver, Bloodfrenzy, Braided Strands of
>> Corrupted Mana, Jaelen's Katana, Sceptre of Destruction, and Primal
>> Warsword for damage. (Gauldrek and Tae Ew war maul for DSed mobs)
>> Willsapper, Truncheon of Doom for slows
>> Fungi tunic, Dain 10th Ring, Latent AoB, rightclick AoB, and ragefire
>> arms for regen and DSes.
>> 5300+hps and 1400+ac unbuffed
>> Also, I can bandage to 100% and have a rightclick summon 20 bandages
>
> ...you're missing an Invigorate item, and something that two of my
>guild's warriors actually raced each other to buy in The Bazaar recently:
Had one (Cobalt BP) and sold it just the other day. Fungi tunic +
bandaging heals comparable HPs given the cast time.
>2HB from Chardok, Herbalist's somethingorother, procs Paralyzing Earth. Let
>me just GO TO ALLAKHAZAM'S... yeah, Herbalist's Spade, 39/43 2HB, procs
>Paralyzing Earth. Huge for when you get adds.
Proc rate and duration/resists on root mean that it's better to realise
early on whether you can win or lose, and fight/run accordingly.
Ben wilson
hughes <hugh...@nospamearthlink.net> writes
>> I think that by "out solo" he means "get more exp in a given time period
>by
>> mindlessly slaughtering small mushrooms".
>
>That would indeed be correct. Since the best of equipment always requires
>raid force to acquire the only soloing criteria is exp per time period.
Don't quite understand why you're stating this difference. I already
have my equipment- best I can get. I can't solo effectively, and
certainly not better than an unguilded L60 with a few AA in the classes
you mentioned.
>
>Im sorry if mr wilson felt cheated that hunting gorgana scouts solo for his
>shard was a bit annoying. With his obvious good equipment to choose from I
>would suggest the grey, or fg, or katta.
Grey I could solo, as long as I left all the named pops for someone
else.
FG I can, and have, soloed. Even with the best of equipment, my DPS are
too slow to make it worthwhile.
Never tried Katta, since it took me forever to raise faction there in
the first place, plus I had to use the 4 shards from Seru for the Arx
Key. Would like to keep faction for the final Seru earring one of these
days.
None of the above zones would allow me to 'get more exp in a given time
period' than any of the listed classes, regardless of what I'm killing.
Using a shaman bot, I can chain pull in just about any exp zone
(including CT), but I'm still crippled for soloing by low DPS because
I'm NOT a damage class.
WIZ, DRU,
Can quad kite with minimal gear, then med up ready to go again, faster
than I could EVER dream of soloing. Buy a KEI, and they're a machine.
SHM,
Only one of your listed classes that probably couldn't solo way ahead of
me, though with canni5 and torpor they have almost limitless mana.
MAG,
Can solo in Seb for obscene amounts of exp, bordering on what I can get
in a full group, let alone soloing.
NEC.
Don't know many high level necs any more, but those soloing in Akheva
don't seem to complain about the exp.
Please confirm that you are saying I can outsolo the above classes
(possibly excepting shaman) over time, giving an example of where I
should be killing.
OOOH!!! I've thought of one! I can solo the Rift mobs in Ssra! Blue con,
rather low hps, non agro! Shame the repop is so slow, or I might have to
concede defeat in this debate.
Jim Monk
> > "James Grahame" <jamesg...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"-Martin" <vil...@cheerfuldot.com> wrote in message
> > >news:ylp99.1011$997....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > >>
> > >> A manastone is the equivalent of something like flowing thought *ten*
> > >
> > > Keep going. Let me just do some math, using a bit of rounding on my
> > >self-buffed HPs (4000).
> > >
> > > I've Faithstoned to Kaladim, so I can manastone down as low as
> possible
> > >and not worry about dying. To be careful, I'll just stone 65 times before
> > >each CH (3900 damage). Manastone is insta-click, but I bet it'll take me
> 14
> > >seconds to do all that clicking what with the anti-spam filter and my
> finger
> > >speed.
> > >
> > > So 24 seconds (14 to click, 10 to CH). 4 ticks. I get back 65x20 mana
> > >from the stone, spend 400 on CH. Net mana in four ticks is 900, or 225
> mana
> > >per tick.
> > >
> > > So Flowing Thought 225.
> >
> > Yeah but points off for only working in old world zones. True, a
> > manastone may get you to 54 or so but after that you need to go to an
> > expansion continent.
> >
> > Manastone = overrated item. But I play a melee so don't mind me.
>
> Bind near where you are hunting, faithstone to Kaladim (In his case),
> manastone back to full, gate back. So, you have to add time to zone twice
> to the time there, but still, a very effective mana restoration device.
> There are some places it won't work, as you can't bind.
>
So with the port and gate time factored in (Say 30 seconds each)
24 + 60 = 64 (14 ticks) = FT 64
Still rather nice.
Jim
hughes
> else.
>
> FG I can, and have, soloed. Even with the best of equipment, my DPS are
> too slow to make it worthwhile.
You are vastly overestimating the ability of quad kiting. It is a common
mistake. The best druid quad spell is fist of karana . 812 dammage for 357
mana hits a maximum of four targets.Gather four targets (30 secs), nuke them
down (90 secs, takes 7 casts for a 5khp mob) med up 2500 mana (with kei and
ft 10 takes 2500/48 =52 ticks or 5 and half minutes ) total time 7 and half
minutes total dammage done 20k.
A warrior with equivalent equipment without haste just item haste has a dps
of 70 or so. 7and half mins x70dps=31k. Not only are you close you are
better. If you spend a third of your time bandaging you are exactly
equivalent. If you bot a shaman it just gets obscene.
Warriors are so spoiled by the excellent experience they can easily get in
groups that they look down from a lofty height indeed on the soloers. What
you consider very crappy experience soloing is the very good experience the
druid was bragging about in the first place.
Ben wilson
hughes <hugh...@nospamearthlink.net> writes
>> Grey I could solo, as long as I left all the named pops for someone
>> else.
>>
>> FG I can, and have, soloed. Even with the best of equipment, my DPS are
>> too slow to make it worthwhile.
>
>You are vastly overestimating the ability of quad kiting. It is a common
>mistake. The best druid quad spell is fist of karana . 812 dammage for 357
>mana hits a maximum of four targets.Gather four targets (30 secs), nuke them
>down (90 secs, takes 7 casts for a 5khp mob) med up 2500 mana (with kei and
>ft 10 takes 2500/48 =52 ticks or 5 and half minutes ) total time 7 and half
>minutes total dammage done 20k.
First up, KEI and FT10 (assuming you're giving that to the druid) work
during the kite, plus throw in PotG for good measure and you've saved a
slice of med time, right?
>
>A warrior with equivalent equipment without haste just item haste has a dps
>of 70 or so. 7and half mins x70dps=31k. Not only are you close you are
>better. If you spend a third of your time bandaging you are exactly
>equivalent. If you bot a shaman it just gets obscene.
Hmmm... interested on how you come up with 70dps. Never really paid much
attention to parsing. A really old version of Copelands I dug up and put
in Hategiver/Bloodfrenzy, and got 2001dpm, or 33dps, boosted to 35dps if
I swap hategiver with manawhip (assuming zero MR mobs), using CoF haste
(shuddup!) Could you cite where you came up with a value of 70dps for a
non-hasted warrior please?
>Warriors are so spoiled by the excellent experience they can easily get in
>groups that they look down from a lofty height indeed on the soloers. What
>you consider very crappy experience soloing is the very good experience the
>druid was bragging about in the first place.
>
I don't go by people's bragging of vague terms like 'good' or 'bad'
experience. I go by wizzies, mages and the like claiming 8 blue AAXP
bars per hour soloing.
Excellent exp? Easily in groups? A warrior in a group is a DRAIN on exp,
just like a cleric, in all but the toughest areas such as 2nd floor srra
and deep CT. Replace him with a monk, sk, or several other classes, and
the group's rate of exp on plentiful mid/low blues just increased
considerably. A druid in a mageless group can add a huge amount of
damage from DS alone. Throw in regen and PotG, together with snare, DoTs
and DDs and a few rightclicks, and druids increase exp rate on pure exp-
farming groups far more than a warrior can.
The only place a warrior shines is in a deep dungeon, high risk group,
or on a raid. And on a raid, only a couple of warriors are needed for
all but total disasters, and the rest are better replaced by someone who
actually does damage.
Dream King
>In article <jeqfmu0v63mkod4ge...@4ax.com>, Dream King
><morp...@cent.com> writes
>>>> ...you're missing an Invigorate item, and something that two of my
>>>> guild's warriors actually raced each other to buy in The Bazaar recently:
>>>
>>>No, he's not.
>>>
>>>Bandages are over twice as fast as any invigorate item a warrior can use,
>>>and he can banadge all the way to full.
>>
>> Sure if you want to carry around 600 bandages wherever you go.
>
>Did you miss the part where I said I had a rightclick summon 20 bandages
>item?
Apparently so.
-Martin
> > A manastone is the equivalent of something like flowing thought *ten*
>
> Keep going. Let me just do some math, using a bit of rounding on my
> self-buffed HPs (4000).
Bleh no idea why i wrote ten.. if I'd used numbers, I could have used the
"forgotten a few zero's" excuse...
I used * to highlight it was an extremely high amount of mana regen... and
then wrote 10 :/
Anyway what I meant to say is a manastone is the equivalent of at least FT
100 (the better geared the cleric, the better the results)
> So Flowing Thought 225.
Yeah. You'd fit into the "the better geared the cleric, the better the
results" category :)
-m
-Martin
> While I'm a bit fuzzy on the manastone concept, since to my knowledge
> they stopped dropping before my server was even created, I believe
> they work like this: Faithstone to old world, use manastone to generate
> mana by some means (cannalike? Dunno) then gate back to a hunting
> zone.
>
> How does this help me kill anything? Seems to me it doesn't. Practically
> eliminates downtime between kills, but does not do a damn thing
Kill mobs in the old world. There are still blue to 60 mobs in the original
words of EQ.
-m
-Martin
news:o3cXmZAC...@armoury1.demon.co.uk...
> Excellent exp? Easily in groups? A warrior in a group is a DRAIN on exp,
> just like a cleric, in all but the toughest areas such as 2nd floor srra
> and deep CT.
bah who needs a warrior for second floor ssra? I can tank elites and the
commander :)
-m
-Martin
> A warrior with equivalent equipment without haste just item haste has a
dps
> of 70 or so. 7and half mins x70dps=31k. Not only are you close you are
> better. If you spend a third of your time bandaging you are exactly
> equivalent. If you bot a shaman it just gets obscene.
70 dps? your smoking that stuff again...
As for, "with equivalent equipment"... oh really? I bet a druid could get
230 or so wis (225+KEi = max wis?) for less than 10k if they tried hard
enough.
You couldn't even buy a decent weapon for 10k
What weapons/haste does your twink_monk wield hughes? Not to mock you
(seriously) but I want to see where you always get these DPS and kill rate
examples from...
-m
Dream King
>"Lance Berg" <emp...@dejazzd.com> wrote in message
>news:3D668EA2...@dejazzd.com...
>> How does this help me kill anything? Seems to me it doesn't. Practically
>> eliminates downtime between kills, but does not do a damn thing
>
>Kill mobs in the old world. There are still blue to 60 mobs in the original
>words of EQ.
Not that many overall. You'd be better off getting a group and hitting
a real XP spot.
Brian Hance
>As for, "with equivalent equipment"... oh really? I bet a druid could get
>230 or so wis (225+KEi = max wis?) for less than 10k if they tried hard
>enough.
My druid is currently sitting at 214 wis (210 if I'm soloing and got
my ES arms on), and his base wisdom is only 85. Put that same gear on
a halfling or wood elf druid that was rolled up correctly and you're
looking at 244 wis. The closest piece of equipment I have to "uber"
is my Elysian Crown (lost the roll on the tunic, damnit). And of all
the droppable equipment I got, total cost is probably in the
neighborhood of 12k, if I'm very lucky. You could get 230 wis with
zero trauma, and for under 10k.
--
Brian Hance
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't mind if you don't like my manners. I don't like them myself.
They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings."
Humphrey Bogart from THE BIG SLEEP
Ben wilson
hughes <hugh...@nospamearthlink.net> writes
>A warrior with equivalent equipment without haste just item haste has a dps
>of 70 or so. 7and half mins x70dps=31k. Not only are you close you are
>better. If you spend a third of your time bandaging you are exactly
>equivalent. If you bot a shaman it just gets obscene.
A naked L50 druid can do 300 dps to all the mobs in the zone
simultaneously with 1 second, and it lasts until all mobs in the zone
are dead. Then he has to med for 17 seconds while they respawn, and he
gets FM, then he can do it all over again. If he bots a mages with their
'double the amount of exp from each kill' focus items, it just gets
obscene.
Or maybe I'm just pulling completely fake examples out of my ass to
shore up my weak argument?
Come on hughes, it's been several days now and you're actively posting.
How about either telling us where you got the figure of 70dps from, or
admitting you vastly overestimated a warrior's damage output and made it
all up?
-Martin
> or admitting you vastly overestimated a warrior's damage output and made
it
> all up?
You really need him to answer that? :)
-m
kaev
> In article <JZIa9.1806$%D6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> hughes <hugh...@nospamearthlink.net> writes
>
>
>>A warrior with equivalent equipment without haste just item haste has a dps
>>of 70 or so. 7and half mins x70dps=31k. Not only are you close you are
>>better. If you spend a third of your time bandaging you are exactly
>>equivalent. If you bot a shaman it just gets obscene.
>>
>
> A naked L50 druid can do 300 dps to all the mobs in the zone
> simultaneously with 1 second, and it lasts until all mobs in the zone
> are dead. Then he has to med for 17 seconds while they respawn, and he
> gets FM, then he can do it all over again. If he bots a mages with their
> 'double the amount of exp from each kill' focus items, it just gets
> obscene.
>
> Or maybe I'm just pulling completely fake examples out of my ass to
> shore up my weak argument?
>
> Come on hughes, it's been several days now and you're actively posting.
> How about either telling us where you got the figure of 70dps from, or
> admitting you vastly overestimated a warrior's damage output and made it
> all up?
He forgot to mention that the warrior in question was a warlord fighting
orcs in crushbone.
hughes
> How about either telling us where you got the figure of 70dps from, or
> admitting you vastly overestimated a warrior's damage output and made it
> all up?
Where I got it from was memory . After having several people yell at me I
will admit to a posibility of some incorrect data stored :p Since my 70 was
so far off the mark what exactly is the dps of a warrior in uber gear?
Ben wilson
hughes <hugh...@nospamearthlink.net> writes
Ah, OK, so you 'made it up' and it just so happened to fit in with your
argument ):oP
I haven't parsed it, but Copelands is looking like 35-45dps to 100%
fighting. Add it time to pull/split a mob, significant loss of dps if
you decided to try and slow it, loss of dps if you have to run after it.
Then factor in the time to heal back up to full after the fight by
bandaging and regen. Most L60 exp mobs have pretty decent ac, cept for
the ubiquitous shrooms, but then their procs don't really help a
warrior's dps do they.
Doesn't look quite so 'hot' for these warriors outsoloing equivalent
level druids now does it?
hughes
> >> How about either telling us where you got the figure of 70dps from, or
> >> admitting you vastly overestimated a warrior's damage output and made
it
> >> all up?
> >
> >Where I got it from was memory . After having several people yell at me I
> >will admit to a posibility of some incorrect data stored :p Since my 70
was
> >so far off the mark what exactly is the dps of a warrior in uber gear?
> >
> >
>
> Ah, OK, so you 'made it up' and it just so happened to fit in with your
> argument ):oP
>
> I haven't parsed it, but Copelands is looking like 35-45dps to 100%
> fighting. Add it time to pull/split a mob, significant loss of dps if
> you decided to try and slow it, loss of dps if you have to run after it.
> Then factor in the time to heal back up to full after the fight by
> bandaging and regen. Most L60 exp mobs have pretty decent ac, cept for
> the ubiquitous shrooms, but then their procs don't really help a
> warrior's dps do they.
>
> Doesn't look quite so 'hot' for these warriors outsoloing equivalent
> level druids now does it?
Well ill let you in on a secret :) Pretty much you and martin proved my
point anyway. There is a huge misconception that druids solo massively
better than anyone else. Many use this excuse to justify druids sucking ass
on raids . Looking at a revised analysis where warriors are doing half as
well as I stated before still means they are doing a damn fine job :) Lots
of both druids and warriors will be saying oops since the prevalent belief
is that druids can solo so much better than anyone else and warriors can
solo so much worse than anyone else that them being anywhere on the same
page will come as a revelation to many.
The grass is always greener over yonder, and many people only play one
class. Makes it tricky to argue convincingly when something really is
broken.
ryouseika
hugh...@nospamearthlink.net says...
> > >> Come on hughes, it's been several days now and you're actively posting.
> > >> How about either telling us where you got the figure of 70dps from, or
> > >> admitting you vastly overestimated a warrior's damage output and made
> it
> > >> all up?
> > >
> > >Where I got it from was memory . After having several people yell at me I
> > >will admit to a posibility of some incorrect data stored :p Since my 70
> was
> > >so far off the mark what exactly is the dps of a warrior in uber gear?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Ah, OK, so you 'made it up' and it just so happened to fit in with your
> > argument ):oP
> >
> > I haven't parsed it, but Copelands is looking like 35-45dps to 100%
> > fighting. Add it time to pull/split a mob, significant loss of dps if
> > you decided to try and slow it, loss of dps if you have to run after it.
> > Then factor in the time to heal back up to full after the fight by
> > bandaging and regen. Most L60 exp mobs have pretty decent ac, cept for
> > the ubiquitous shrooms, but then their procs don't really help a
> > warrior's dps do they.
> >
> > Doesn't look quite so 'hot' for these warriors outsoloing equivalent
> > level druids now does it?
>
> Well ill let you in on a secret :) Pretty much you and martin proved my
> point anyway. There is a huge misconception that druids solo massively
That's right, boys, we all took one look at this thread and decided
hughes is right, and you are wrong. Thanks to you, the world just
turned inside out. I hope you're happy.
> and many people only play one
> class.
Exactly. We just made up the word 'alt' to fool the newbies.
--
Ryou
Taellaar ~ 35 DE Rogue (pretty) ~ Erollisi Marr
Novasina ~ 13 DE Necro (cute) ~ Erollisi Marr
(Nweina ~ 9 WE Druid, abandoned due to the fact that she's not DE and
not evil enough)
(and 8 other chars on TMarr, now abandoned for all time)
(but remember, I'm making this up)
Richard
At level 30, with highly non uber gear, my warrior can solo effectively, if
he is extremely careful about the mobs he picks. So far, I have found
exactly one mob type in exactly one zone that he can very effectively solo.
He can kill four or five of them from full health without too much concern,
so long as there are no adds. They are highly social however. After that,
bandage up to half, and do a couple more. He can keep that up pretty well
until bandages run out. My druid, who is only 15, with even less uber gear
than the warrior can easily solo yellows, with significant downtime in
between, or, can solo dark blues in a wide variety of zones at higher rate
than the warrior. The warrior takes a while to kill things, as he has no
haste item yet. My druid is at a highly uber wisdom of 137 right now.