Flowing Thought vs. Haste
Bammers
haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem to
make sense to me.
Anyone know of a good flowing thought item that doesn't require killing the
head mob in the planes or a quest that takes every trade skill to do?
Thanks
Lance Berg
Bammers wrote:
Because the entire backbone of EQ is built around mana regeneration?
Face it, increase the rate at which one melee character does damage,
and you have a marginal increase in your group's kill per hour rate.
Increase the rate at which your cleric regenerates mana, though,
and you see the down time for the entire group plummet.
Looking at the Luclin skills coming up, its the mana regeneration
ones I intend to concentrate on first, far easier than a rare drop
off a boss mob that takes a dozen casters to kill, or learning
a dozen otherwise useless skills up to grand master level, I can just
forgo leveling for a while and continue to work for normal exp.
Bergh Brelltender
53 Vicar, Morel Thule
hoping to make 54 before Luclin, cause I'm sure not leveling
for quite a while after that!
dstep
wrote:
Because of downtime issues.
They want more downtime in the game when soloing so you group more.
Haste things are nice but 20 percent or 30 percent haste just doesn't
make a huge difference since everyone is getting the best hast spells
cast on them during raids anyway. Most people with haste melee are not
going to extensively solo with it so it mostly only barely helps on
raids/grouping.
Meanwhile flowing thought or great mana regenerating items will
increase your downtime in soloing so they are exceptionally rare and
hard to get (such as with that horriblly awful shawl quest I refuse to
even try to do) So my answer is no, I don't know of an item any easier
to get than those ;)
They are simply much more stingy with mana regen than anything else.
Email: dstephenathomedotcom
Find the @ and the . if you really need to.
dstep
wrote:
>Bammers wrote:
>
>> Why are the flowing thought items in the game so much harder to find than
>> haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem to
>> make sense to me.
>> Anyone know of a good flowing thought item that doesn't require killing the
>> head mob in the planes or a quest that takes every trade skill to do?
>> Thanks
>
>Because the entire backbone of EQ is built around mana regeneration?
Yep ;)
>Face it, increase the rate at which one melee character does damage,
>and you have a marginal increase in your group's kill per hour rate.
>Increase the rate at which your cleric regenerates mana, though,
>and you see the down time for the entire group plummet.
Yep, and for soloing casters their downtime plummet. Verant don't like
to do that.
>Looking at the Luclin skills coming up, its the mana regeneration
>ones I intend to concentrate on first, far easier than a rare drop
>off a boss mob that takes a dozen casters to kill, or learning
>a dozen otherwise useless skills up to grand master level, I can just
>forgo leveling for a while and continue to work for normal exp.
Same here. The mana regen things are nice and my druid will forgo xp
(since I can't seem to get beyond the middle of 55 really anyway) for
a while to generate xp for skills. I'll go for faster mana regen and
that perm charm (which would of course be for animals) probably first
thing out of the gate. Unless I hear that the perm charm really sucks
and only works for low level beasts.
Zymyool
news:zWNM7.42735$Li3.3...@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net:
While we are on the subject, what -are- the mana-regen items in the game,
even the ones that don't drop anymore?
--
Zymyool 34th lvl Gnomish Chanter ( Guk'n it, got my EE bag! )
Draglorvin 25th lvl Dwarven Warrior ( Fear me, Sarnaks )
Pheilmi 23rd lvl Gnomish Necro ( Poor Hermie )
Duesservus 12th lvl Dwarven Cleric ( Going for Quest Armor )
Karana Server
James
dstep wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:02:55 GMT, "Bammers" <Bam...@mediaone.net>
>wrote:
>
>> Why are the flowing thought items in the game so much harder to find than
>>haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem to
>>make sense to me.
>> Anyone know of a good flowing thought item that doesn't require killing
the
>>head mob in the planes or a quest that takes every trade skill to do?
>> Thanks
>
>Because of downtime issues.
>
>They want more downtime in the game when soloing so you group more.
>Haste things are nice but 20 percent or 30 percent haste just doesn't
>make a huge difference since everyone is getting the best hast spells
>cast on them during raids anyway.
Well, it does make a massive difference when soloing. Even 20% haste is
going to knock your downtime down by one sixth, roughly (ripostes screw the
exact math up). But the issue with melee soloing is that the HP regain rate
is VERY slow compared to med rates. The usual way of regaining HPs is
bandaging, which requires a ton of pack space and, while fast, doesn't allow
for folks to get to full HPs. The one item that breaks the "melees solo
poorly" is a Fungi. With that thing, you actually regain HPs at rates
comparable to maxed med rates, and all your haste and improved ratio weapons
actually make you a BETTER soloist than a same-level caster at lower levels.
James
Mark A. Rimer
> >
> >> Why are the flowing thought items in the game so much harder to find
than
> >> haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem
to
> >> make sense to me.
Drop a clarity on a level 10 wizard and see if he ever needs to
sit down to med for the next 20 minutes, especially if hunting
blues. By the time you find something to kill, your mana is back...
2 nukes, time to find another blue.
Mana regen rate is MUCH more unbalancing if left uncontrolled
than simple haste. I don't care how much you haste a warrior,
a warrior isn't going to solo a dragon. A shaman HAS soloed
a dragon, and that was WITHOUT some kind of weird mana
converter (besides his own spells).
Imagine a druid/necro that didn't have to med? What, level
50 in a week without powerleveling...
Zymyool
news:VtSM7.25793$un4.4...@news1.telusplanet.net:
> while fast, doesn't allow for folks to get to full HPs. The one item
> that breaks the "melees solo poorly" is a Fungi. With that thing, you
> actually regain HPs at rates comparable to maxed med rates, and all
> your haste and improved ratio weapons actually make you a BETTER
> soloist than a same-level caster at lower levels.
What's sad is that my warrior gets experience faster soloing in the LOIO
than he does in groups. He's twinked ( weapons and armor gotten from
trading a GBS ), and that's the only reason he is able to this. If I find
a druid, or better yet, a shaman to buff me up for a few plat, I am a
monster soloing machine. The only problem is leveling too fast to keep my
skills up ( and I'm not even doing 2HB ). Besides the social enjoyment of
grouping, I need to group to max my skills.
Before I get berated for soloing my warrior, I only do it when I'm not
going to be on long or when I'm busy doing RL stuff while I play.
Virtually no downtime, except for bandaging back up to 50%. I know a
Warrior isn't going to solo his career, but I can still do it at level 24 (
just hit 25, need to go train ) without any problems - but I have to dual-
wield my 2 big slashers to keep the EXP cranking. This means no training
in my other weapon skills.
I was in a great group that had 2 other warriors the other day, which let
me put down my Wurmy and Runebladed Sword of Night ( something like that )
and smack the sarnaks around with a blackjack and a mace, or Betle Stinger
and Viik's Defender. The only time I would pull out the big dawg is when
we got more than 2 adds. We didn't have a chanter, so adds were a little
more dangerous than usual on the left plat.
The cleric was French and I couldn't get the idea of root-parking through
to them, so we actually had 6 on us at one time and didn't lose a person
even without any real crowd-control ( besides 3 warriors using well-placed
taunts ). That was a -fun- battle. Playing my enchanter with 5 adds is
still more fun, because I'm more certain of the outcome, but it was pretty
cool seeing it from the other viewpoint - and without a chanter to control
it all.
Damn, I love this game, and I haven't even played in 3-4 days.
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>
>
>Bammers wrote:
>
>> Why are the flowing thought items in the game so much harder to find than
>> haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem to
>> make sense to me.
>> Anyone know of a good flowing thought item that doesn't require killing the
>> head mob in the planes or a quest that takes every trade skill to do?
>> Thanks
>
>Because the entire backbone of EQ is built around mana regeneration?
>
>Face it, increase the rate at which one melee character does damage,
>and you have a marginal increase in your group's kill per hour rate.
>Increase the rate at which your cleric regenerates mana, though,
>and you see the down time for the entire group plummet.
Ummm, that's completely backwards.
Increase the damage output of your melees and you've turned a hard
encounter into a trivial one. There's a reason why guilds farmed the
shit outta Sleepers for primal weapons before clearing ToVN.
Infact, if you go and look at the really tough mobs in the game and
look at their characteristics carefully, you see one common theme:
They screw your melee damage output tremendously.
Some mobs do it by using nasty as fuck AoEs, others do it by having
extremely high AC.
Flowing thought is largely a bone tossed to casters.
FT 1 is one mana regen every 6 seconds. To get enough mana back to
cast one remedy, you have wait 17 and a half MINUTES!
The highest FT item so far looted is off Tunare at FT 5. To cast one
complete heal with 5 mana regen, you have to wait 8 minutes! Against
a Vulak fight, you MIGHT be able to get enough mana from FT 5 item to
cast it once (as most Vulak fights now last between 10 to 15 mins).
Given the stupidly difficult hoops you have to jump through to get FT
items, the effect is really, REALLY weak.
While every little bit does help, there needs to be some sort of
balance between effort vs. reward. FT items don't balance at all.
-- Sang.
Matt Frisch
into the ether:
>"Bammers" <Bam...@mediaone.net> wrote in
>news:zWNM7.42735$Li3.3...@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net:
>
>> Why are the flowing thought items in the game so much harder to find than
>> haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem
>> to make sense to me.
>> Anyone know of a good flowing thought item that doesn't require killing
>> the head mob in the planes or a quest that takes every trade skill to do?
>
>While we are on the subject, what -are- the mana-regen items in the game,
>even the ones that don't drop anymore?
The only one that doesn't drop anymore is the manastone, which used to come
from the EE in Lguk, it was an instant right click inventory item that
swapped hp for mana (like a shaman, but much faster)...it was removed
because clerics could combine it with CH to get their mana back insanely
fast. Plus the camp at the EE for the things was ridiculous.
There are a number of flowing thought items in the game...the 7th (and
presumably 8-10th) coldain shawls, the boots you get from yelinak for
killing Tormax, several NToV items, an earring from Tunare, several drops
from Cazic-Thule (the god, not the zone), and others. It isn't a common
ability, because it can be quite strong (the earring from tunare is flowing
thought III, which means +3 mana/tick, or 30 extra mana a minute). People
who parse the sp.dat file have said that flowing thought goes all the way
up to version X....I doubt that will ever be seen in-game...100 mana/minute
extra would be madness (plus, I would really hate to see the difficulty of
the mob THAT item dropped off).
Tim Smith
> Why are the flowing thought items in the game so much harder to find than
>haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem to
>make sense to me.
Why would you expect them to have similar availability? The
assumption behind your question makes no sense.
--Tim Smith
Tim Smith
>is VERY slow compared to med rates. The usual way of regaining HPs is
>bandaging, which requires a ton of pack space and, while fast, doesn't allow
>for folks to get to full HPs. The one item that breaks the "melees solo
Get that knife from ToFS that summons bandages for you. With that,
you don't need a ton of pack space.
Twinked warriors actually solo quite well. With their high HP and AC,
they don't need to start at full HP. Half from bandaging is enough
(besides, a twink can bandage past half). Give the twink a regen
item, too, if you really want to make a soloing machine.
--Tim Smith
Tim Smith
>While we are on the subject, what -are- the mana-regen items in the game,
>even the ones that don't drop anymore?
The famous Manastone was the best. Right-click effect that instantly
converted some health to mana at something like a 3 to 1 ratio.
Consider a cleric with that, starting with 2100 HP. A few clicks
later, the cleric is down to, say, 300 HP, and has gained 600 mana,
400 of which goes for a complete heal.
Net result: cleric has gained 200 mana in under 3 ticks. Basically,
it was Flowing Thought 66.
--Tim Smith
James
Sang K. Choe wrote in message <3c083554....@news.isomedia.com>...
>On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:34:09 GMT, Lance Berg <emp...@dejazzd.com>
>wrote:
>>Bammers wrote:
>>
>>> Why are the flowing thought items in the game so much harder to find
than
>>> haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem to
>>> make sense to me.
>>
>>
>>Face it, increase the rate at which one melee character does damage,
>>and you have a marginal increase in your group's kill per hour rate.
>>Increase the rate at which your cleric regenerates mana, though,
>>and you see the down time for the entire group plummet.
>
>Ummm, that's completely backwards.
No, he got it right. Read it carefully: increase the rate at which ONE
melee character does damage, and the GROUP's increase in kill rate is small.
Increase the primary healer's mana regen rate, and the group's total
downtime recovery rate goes up by pretty much that much (unless you have
multiple healers - even then, ever had more than two in an XP group?)
To use harder numbers: in a group of four tanks, each doing about the
same DPS, and two "healers" sharing the load. Give ONE a haste item, 100%
for ease of calculation. The group's DPS has gone up 25%, with a
commensurate damage taken reduction of 20%. The group could pull 20% faster
/ take mobs that do 20% more damage and still "keep up". Now give ONE of
those healers a mana regen item that hastes mana regen by 100%. You now have
50% greater healing power, and can up the pulls by 50% and not overload the
healers.
The reason you may read it backwards is because you assume implicitly
that (a) ALL melees will get the haste items in question for the exact same
effort that all healers would get such mana regen items, (b) you're used to
the intentionally skewed system where a 20% melee haste item is trivial to
buy in EC but a 20% mana regen haste item, as yet, exists only as a GM event
item (and that staff is in the 33% to 50% haste range - capped med rate is
30 per tick, no?), and (c) you're used to fighting mobs where the single
best method over time that healing classes have to heal with, slowing, has
been coded to not work. But even for your level of play - ever notice that
all the right-clickable damage items (hasting total damage output by
extending mana pool) are the same as when first created, but almost every
right-clickable healing item (hasting total healing output by extending mana
pool) has been nerfed to hell and gone?
>Increase the damage output of your melees and you've turned a hard
>encounter into a trivial one.
Give me a few pre-nerf Donal's BPs and I'll REALLY make your encounter
trivial. 8)
>There's a reason why guilds farmed the
>shit outta Sleepers for primal weapons before clearing ToVN.
Some guilds. Some, like BoTS, went to NToV before going to Sleeper's. I
agree with you on what order they should have done things in, but they did
do it. And a point - how many of those guilds went out and got an upgrade
for their casters (DB) at the same time?
>Flowing thought is largely a bone tossed to casters.
Agreed. Because if a general mana regen item was available that actually
worked like the melee items worked, we'd hand them to healers and watch
fights become trivial. Imagine an item that made the standing med rate equal
the sitting med rate to get some idea of what the original poster was
wondering "why aren't these in game?" And the answer there is simple - an
item like that would what, add 50% mana over the course of one of those ten
minute fights?
>While every little bit does help, there needs to be some sort of
>balance between effort vs. reward. FT items don't balance at all.
Totally agreed. On the subject: know where there's some hard numbers on
how often Specialization kicks in, and what the decrease in mana cost is
like when it does kick in? One of those "Luclin skills" increases how often
Specialization kicks in, and I wanted to try and translate that into hard
percent mana cost reductions to get some idea of how useful they might be.
James
James
Matt Frisch wrote in message <3c045db7...@news.earthlink.net>...
>On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:09:48 GMT, Zymyool <ple...@reply.in.here> scribed
>into the ether:
>
>presumably 8-10th) coldain shawls, the boots you get from yelinak for
>killing Tormax, several NToV items, an earring from Tunare, several drops
>from Cazic-Thule (the god, not the zone), and others. It isn't a common
>ability, because it can be quite strong (the earring from tunare is flowing
>thought III, which means +3 mana/tick, or 30 extra mana a minute).
That isn't very strong at all. As Sang pointed out, over the course of
the time it takes to kill Tunare her earring would give you the ability to
cast one extra Divine Light, maybe. Whereas that Cloak the melee picked up
off Nagafen increases his personal damage output by a ton. It can only be
remotely considered strong if you outfit the entire healing staff with
them - and given the difficulty of getting dragon haste vs. Flowing Thought
III and above....
>People
>who parse the sp.dat file have said that flowing thought goes all the way
>up to version X....I doubt that will ever be seen in-game...
It already is. One poster to this newsgroup has it.
>100 mana/minute
>extra would be madness (plus, I would really hate to see the difficulty of
>the mob THAT item dropped off).
It was handed to her by Al'Kabor in a GM event. And considering that as
a wizard she had to give Al'Crapor the time of day, let alone roleplay with
him, it could be said to be a very difficult drop. Just looking at Al's
spells, it seems like Harry Potter would outnuke Al'Kabor.
James
James
Tim Smith wrote in message
<30A4125BEE155DEA.A0C74B08...@lp.airnews.net>...
>"James" <jamesg...@home.com> wrote:
>>is VERY slow compared to med rates. The usual way of regaining HPs is
>>bandaging, which requires a ton of pack space and, while fast, doesn't
allow
>>for folks to get to full HPs. The one item that breaks the "melees solo
>
>Get that knife from ToFS that summons bandages for you. With that,
>you don't need a ton of pack space.
The knife is VERY cool 8), but the summon is a proc, no? Requiring you
to nerf your own damage output (and thus increase your damage taken in a
fight) to get the bandaids?
James
Carlo Mosca
news:833D4CFC120C1C8B.93664B99...@lp.airnews.net...
Manarobe has the same or similar effect I believe, with the added bonus that
it works everywhere. A wizard with epic staff can do a similar thing to the
cleric situation above.
Jam
James wrote:
Just duel a friend.
My monk did his repantant quest (destroyed the bracer right away, then
wanted to do shackle quests) a LOT easier when duelling a druid that he
couldnt hit (monk level 25, druid level 50), than killing green mobs
(stupid warhammer had REALLY sucky stats, and weight too much, so take a
LOT of time to get procs on mobs, while you take dmg. Lot easier to have
a druid you cant hit, you dont take dmg, you can get zing when needed).
--
Hesten Gnyffa
Level 48 druid
Member of Sceptered Isle
Veeshan server
Ben Haddick
"James" <jamesg...@home.com> wrote in message
news:0NcN7.30369$un4.4...@news1.telusplanet.net...
Al`Kabors Expansive Mind effect isn't exactly FTX, but for general
discussion it is.
According to the spdat parser,
Al's EM is 10mana/tick
FTI is 1mana/tick
FTII is 2mana/tick
FTIII is 3mana/tick
FTIV is 0mana/tick
FTV is 5mana/tick
and FTVI through FTX are all listed but with 0mana/tick on them.
So, while logically FTX would be 10 mana/tick, it's not.
Sang K. Choe
<ca...@NOADSmoscacr.com> wrote:
>Manarobe has the same or similar effect I believe, with the added bonus that
>it works everywhere.
It has a casting time and it can be interrupted.
Manastone was insta-cast and cannot be interrupted (naturally since
it's insta-cast).
>A wizard with epic staff can do a similar thing to the
>cleric situation above.
Not really.
Insta-cast hps/mana conversion is very hard to beat when combined with
complete heal.
-- Sang.
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>>Ummm, that's completely backwards.
>
> No, he got it right. Read it carefully: increase the rate at which ONE
>melee character does damage, and the GROUP's increase in kill rate is small.
Considering in most groups there's maybe 2 to 3 meleers, increasing
one person's damage output by 35% is more effective than increasing
one person's mana regen by 1 to 2 mana/tick.
> To use harder numbers: in a group of four tanks, each doing about the
>same DPS, and two "healers" sharing the load. Give ONE a haste item, 100%
>for ease of calculation. The group's DPS has gone up 25%, with a
>commensurate damage taken reduction of 20%. The group could pull 20% faster
>/ take mobs that do 20% more damage and still "keep up". Now give ONE of
>those healers a mana regen item that hastes mana regen by 100%.
100% haste is available in game right now. Dragon haste + Shissar
caps you at 100% haste. The *HIGHEST* mana regen item in the game
right now is FT 5 item off Tunare. That gives you 5 mana/tick.
Unless your cleric is regenning mana at 5 mana/tick, there's no such
thing as a 100% mana regen increase item.
*IF* VI was stupid enough to put in a mana regen item that doubled
your regen, then yes you can state that such an item would
significantly impact your efficiency. But right now, given that 5
mana/tick is the very best you can do after killing Tunare (assuming
she even loads it), there's no way FT is gonna be anything more than
"ooh...aah" items for those who don't go past that initial Effect:
label.
>>Increase the damage output of your melees and you've turned a hard
>>encounter into a trivial one.
>
> Give me a few pre-nerf Donal's BPs and I'll REALLY make your encounter
>trivial. 8)
Where are you gonna pull the 12 or so clerics you'll need to make that
encounter trivial? Do you think you can just whip up 12 level 45+
clerics on the fly?
Even back when our clerics had the pre-nerf BP, we didn't bother using
it since:
1. It wasn't neccessary.
2. It required MORE clerics to do the same job due to the twice as
long casting time (which then went to 3 times as long casting time).
Generally, if it came down that all our clerics were OOM and the mob
was still alive, it's time to get one of them camped out rather than
trying to start up a heal chain with the BPs.
>>There's a reason why guilds farmed the
>>shit outta Sleepers for primal weapons before clearing ToVN.
>
> Some guilds. Some, like BoTS, went to NToV before going to Sleeper's.
I don't know what BoTS did before hitting ToVN, but almost every
single guild I know farmed ST key dragons first, went into ST, farmed
sufficient number of primal weapons and THEN and only then hit ToVN.
Let me re-phrase, then and only then did they have SUCCESS in ToVN.
-- Sang.
James
Sang K. Choe wrote in message <3c0e0c2d....@news.isomedia.com>...
>On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:29:13 GMT, "James" <jamesg...@home.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>Ummm, that's completely backwards.
>>
>> No, he got it right. Read it carefully: increase the rate at which ONE
>>melee character does damage, and the GROUP's increase in kill rate is
small.
>
>Considering in most groups there's maybe 2 to 3 meleers, increasing
>one person's damage output by 35% is more effective than increasing
>one person's mana regen by 1 to 2 mana/tick.
Agreed. But that wasn't the issue here.
>> To use harder numbers: in a group of four tanks, each doing about the
>>same DPS, and two "healers" sharing the load. Give ONE a haste item, 100%
>>for ease of calculation. The group's DPS has gone up 25%, with a
>>commensurate damage taken reduction of 20%. The group could pull 20%
faster
>>/ take mobs that do 20% more damage and still "keep up". Now give ONE of
>>those healers a mana regen item that hastes mana regen by 100%.
>
>100% haste is available in game right now. Dragon haste + Shissar
>caps you at 100% haste. The *HIGHEST* mana regen item in the game
>right now is FT 5 item off Tunare. That gives you 5 mana/tick.
And THAT was the original poster's question: "Why aren't there mana
regen items like there are haste items?"
>*IF* VI was stupid enough to put in a mana regen item that doubled
>your regen, then yes you can state that such an item would
>significantly impact your efficiency.
And there's the original poster's answer. 8)
>>>Increase the damage output of your melees and you've turned a hard
>>>encounter into a trivial one.
>>
>> Give me a few pre-nerf Donal's BPs and I'll REALLY make your encounter
>>trivial. 8)
>
>Where are you gonna pull the 12 or so clerics you'll need to make that
>encounter trivial? Do you think you can just whip up 12 level 45+
>clerics on the fly?
That's what our top guild seems to do - "Hey, it's your turn to make a
cleric twink!" They have about a dozen level 56 plus clerics that are
regulars, and maybe a half dozen level 56 plus cleric alts for when the
main's class isn't required. Included in the half dozen is a few "community
clerics". If Donal's wasn't nerfed, they'd have already killed Tunare.
>Even back when our clerics had the pre-nerf BP, we didn't bother using
>it since:
>
>1. It wasn't neccessary.
>2. It required MORE clerics to do the same job due to the twice as
>long casting time (which then went to 3 times as long casting time).
You assume you can DO the job, though. As long as you control aggro, a
Donal's team NEVER goes OOM. Doesn't matter how long the fight is, the
clerics will still be CHealing away. Take the infamous Lodizal example -
does your guild presently have a two-character team that can drop Lodizal?
>Generally, if it came down that all our clerics were OOM and the mob
>was still alive, it's time to get one of them camped out rather than
>trying to start up a heal chain with the BPs.
Donal's teams start the heal chain with BPs, not set it up once they go
OOM. Other clerics / healers cover with spam heals until the BP chain kicks
in. It isn't part of the strat, it IS the strat.
James
Thomas
Sang,
I believe the concept that Carlo is stating here in comparison is the fact that
the HP that the wizard would be stealing in this case is HP that he/she can get
back them safe. Namely, the Rune style effect on the wizard epic. The Manarobe
would be taking the HP equivalent granted by the epic and converting it to mana.
The epic would then inturn replace the lost HP equivalent. Granted, it is not
exact because of casting times on the Manarobe and wizard epic when compaired to
the insta-cast of the Manastone. But it is pretty darn close and inturn granted
to a class that is just about exclusively DD casting based class with no
alternative method of damage.
-Wadin Pureheart of Quellious
Ranger, 56 summers
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>>Where are you gonna pull the 12 or so clerics you'll need to make that
>>encounter trivial? Do you think you can just whip up 12 level 45+
>>clerics on the fly?
>
> That's what our top guild seems to do - "Hey, it's your turn to make a
>cleric twink!" They have about a dozen level 56 plus clerics that are
>regulars, and maybe a half dozen level 56 plus cleric alts for when the
>main's class isn't required.
A dozen 56+ clerics...
I can't remember the time we had more than 9 clerics at any raid. And
anything over 6 clerics is far too much healing. Fuck me, I don't
think we even HAVE 12 clerics on our roster.
>...If Donal's wasn't nerfed, they'd have already killed Tunare.
Tunare isn't a mob where you need obscene healing power. Tunare is a
mob where you need obscene damage output. You can have 50 clerics, if
you can't generate the damage to overwhelm her regen, you ain't
killing her.
Tunare's damage output compared to most mobs of her calibre is
actually low.
In otherwords, I SERIOUSLY doubt they would have killed Tunare even
with the Donal's BP if they can't do it now.
>>Even back when our clerics had the pre-nerf BP, we didn't bother using
>>it since:
>>
>>1. It wasn't neccessary.
>>2. It required MORE clerics to do the same job due to the twice as
>>long casting time (which then went to 3 times as long casting time).
>
> You assume you can DO the job, though. As long as you control aggro, a
>Donal's team NEVER goes OOM.
As long as you can control aggro, YOU DON'T NEED DONAL'S BP!!!
What part of this is hard to understand?
>...Take the infamous Lodizal example -
>does your guild presently have a two-character team that can drop Lodizal?
What the hell does that have to do with anything?
>...It isn't part of the strat, it IS the strat.
And a fairly stupid one.
We tried this with Velketor very early in the days of Velious. You
know what happens? People LD, people lag, people get tossed by that
gravity flux and is interrupted.
When your healing chain is 12 deep, you have 12 links which can be
broken. It's a fuckload easier to find 6 people with stable
connection and won't LD at the drop of a hat than it is to find 12
people who won't LD at the first AoE.
We tried it against Velk about three or four times. Each time, the
chain broke because it was too long. At the end, we said screw the
donals and halved the healing chain. Dead giant, all clerics at 40%
mana.
-- Sang.
Ben wilson
<sa...@choenet.com.remove.this.com> writes
>100% haste is available in game right now. Dragon haste + Shissar
>caps you at 100% haste. The *HIGHEST* mana regen item in the game
>right now is FT 5 item off Tunare. That gives you 5 mana/tick.
>Unless your cleric is regenning mana at 5 mana/tick, there's no such
>thing as a 100% mana regen increase item.
Apples and oranges.
Until the shissar stick becomes all/all, your argument is bunk. If
you're including shissar as an external buff when calculating melee
haste, then please include C2, Bardsong, and PoG to calculate mana regen
I agree that casters want/need/deserve more mana-regen potential, but
giving obviously flawed comparisons doesn't help your case
--
***********************
* Demorgoth Demonia *
* Wielder of Jaelen's Katana *
*Tanker of Ventani the Warder*
* L60 Warlord [Ogre] *
* <Dark Horizon> Officer *
* Zebuxuruk Server *
**********************
Ben wilson
<sa...@choenet.com.remove.this.com> writes
>Tunare isn't a mob where you need obscene healing power. Tunare is a
>mob where you need obscene damage output. You can have 50 clerics, if
>you can't generate the damage to overwhelm her regen, you ain't
>killing her.
>
>Tunare's damage output compared to most mobs of her calibre is
>actually low.
>
News on the grapevine is that isn't true any more. Went from 2-300 hits
to 7-900 hits most often on the MT (big ATK upgrade), delay reduction,
proc rate increased, and a possible regen increase.
This is second hand info, so don't take it as gospel, but I was told
this by someone who was there at a killing on a different sever.
Anyone killed Tunare recently shed any light on this rumour?
James
Sang K. Choe wrote in message <3c122789....@news.isomedia.com>...
>On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:18:07 GMT, "James" <jamesg...@home.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>Where are you gonna pull the 12 or so clerics you'll need to make that
>>>encounter trivial? Do you think you can just whip up 12 level 45+
>>>clerics on the fly?
>>
>> That's what our top guild seems to do - "Hey, it's your turn to make a
>>cleric twink!" They have about a dozen level 56 plus clerics that are
>>regulars, and maybe a half dozen level 56 plus cleric alts for when the
>>main's class isn't required.
>
>A dozen 56+ clerics...
>I can't remember the time we had more than 9 clerics at any raid. And
>anything over 6 clerics is far too much healing. Fuck me, I don't
>think we even HAVE 12 clerics on our roster.
At one point they didn't even set up healing chains. They actually
spam-healed through encounters, because they had the sheer numbers to do it.
Now that some of the clerics are beginning to cut back their playing time
they've firmed things up, though.
>>...If Donal's wasn't nerfed, they'd have already killed Tunare.
>
>Tunare isn't a mob where you need obscene healing power. Tunare is a
>mob where you need obscene damage output. You can have 50 clerics, if
>you can't generate the damage to overwhelm her regen, you ain't
>killing her.
>
>Tunare's damage output compared to most mobs of her calibre is
>actually low.
>
>In otherwords, I SERIOUSLY doubt they would have killed Tunare even
>with the Donal's BP if they can't do it now.
Doesn't fly. If they have a Donal's BP chain in place and working, then
they never go OOM. Ever. They can be beating her regen by a paltry amount,
and as long as they don't get respawn they win.
>>>Even back when our clerics had the pre-nerf BP, we didn't bother using
>>>it since:
>>>
>>>1. It wasn't neccessary.
>>>2. It required MORE clerics to do the same job due to the twice as
>>>long casting time (which then went to 3 times as long casting time).
>>
>> You assume you can DO the job, though. As long as you control aggro, a
>>Donal's team NEVER goes OOM.
>
>As long as you can control aggro, YOU DON'T NEED DONAL'S BP!!!
>
>What part of this is hard to understand?
So you can do Vyemm with one cleric? No. As long as you have sufficient
healing, sufficient damage output, and control aggro, yeah sure, you don't
need Donal's BP. But if you don't have sufficient damage output for the
healing present, then the old pre-nerf Donal's would "patch over" your
deficiency.
>>...Take the infamous Lodizal example -
>>does your guild presently have a two-character team that can drop Lodizal?
>
>What the hell does that have to do with anything?
It illustrates exactly what I'm talking about, is what. Standard
two-player team doesn't have enough damage output to kill Lodizal before the
healing runs out, no matter how well you control aggro on the turtle. Put a
warrior and a pre-nerf Donal's BP cleric in there, though, and Lodizal dies
because it is physically incapable of killing the warrior barring some
accident of lag or wandering adds. Now scale that up.
>>...It isn't part of the strat, it IS the strat.
>
>And a fairly stupid one.
>We tried this with Velketor very early in the days of Velious. You
>know what happens? People LD, people lag, people get tossed by that
>gravity flux and is interrupted.
>
>When your healing chain is 12 deep, you have 12 links which can be
>broken. It's a fuckload easier to find 6 people with stable
>connection and won't LD at the drop of a hat than it is to find 12
>people who won't LD at the first AoE.
That's an important point. The elder cleric on our top guild was most
excited about the SoL discipline that shortens casting time on spells over 4
seconds cast time. That'll tighten up the healing chains some, if they can
find the time to XP ever again.
James
Sang K. Choe
<bwi...@armoury1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>News on the grapevine is that isn't true any more. Went from 2-300 hits
>to 7-900 hits most often on the MT (big ATK upgrade), delay reduction,
>proc rate increased, and a possible regen increase.
700 to 900 quads aren't too bad. For a top end mob (remember, this is
suppose to compete near head to head with AoW), those hits are
reasonable. A main tank can actually survive for a couple of round of
combat unlike the pre-nerf AoW where it was simply impossible for a
main tank to tank even a single round effectively.
>Anyone killed Tunare recently shed any light on this rumour?
We'll let you know tomorrow--assuming the whiny ass high/wood elves in
the guild don't suddenly find a family emergency that forces them to
be offline...."Oh shit, my cat just coughed up a hairball! Gotta go,
bye."
-- Sang.
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>>In otherwords, I SERIOUSLY doubt they would have killed Tunare even
>>with the Donal's BP if they can't do it now.
>
> Doesn't fly. If they have a Donal's BP chain in place and working, then
>they never go OOM. Ever. They can be beating her regen by a paltry amount,
>and as long as they don't get respawn they win.
Given the sheer lagfest that zone is, I doubt making a heal chain
longer would make things easier. If anything, you just introduce more
potential screw ups.
>>As long as you can control aggro, YOU DON'T NEED DONAL'S BP!!!
>>
>>What part of this is hard to understand?
>
> So you can do Vyemm with one cleric? No.
No, but we also don't need 12 clerics with Donals.
Generally we have 5 to 6 clerics, no Donals and a dead Vyemm.
>As long as you have sufficient
>healing, sufficient damage output, and control aggro, yeah sure, you don't
>need Donal's BP. But if you don't have sufficient damage output for the
>healing present, then the old pre-nerf Donal's would "patch over" your
>deficiency.
What the hell are you talking about?
In order for you to have enough "healing" with the Donals you would
need *TWICE* as many clerics since the CH on those pre-nerf BPs takes
two times the casting time!
If you have the warm bodies to wear those Donals and right click on it
with enough overlap to keep a tank alive, guess what? You have MORE
than enough clerics there to kill Vyemm.
Vyemm takes a whopping 40 people these days. You can't get 40 people
to show up for a ToVN clearing? Are you shitting me? I can't beat
people away with a stick! ToVN == 20+ phat fucking lewts in one day's
clearing. I get every semi-active member suddenly showing up and
staying logged on for 12+ freaking hours.
> Put a
>warrior and a pre-nerf Donal's BP cleric in there, though, and Lodizal dies
>because it is physically incapable of killing the warrior barring some
>accident of lag or wandering adds. Now scale that up.
That's the problem isn't it?
It DOES NOT SCALE UP!
Have you actually tried this tactic? I mean really attempt it against
a mob that can generate really sick amounts of damage very quickly.
We have. It DOES NOT SCALE!
The lag is ALWAYS a factor. Which end game mob encounter zone can you
name that doesn't have lag as a factor?
Kael? ToVN? PoG? WW? Skyshrine? Icewell?
All of these zones have lag and shitload of them.
I'm speaking as someone who actually tried to make this work. It
doesn't. We had sufficient clerics, sufficient donals, and even MORE
than sufficient damage output. Main tanks could not live the entire
encounter because the heal chain broke. The best we ever managed with
the donal's chain was getting Velketor (and this is a fairly WEAK mob
compared to some of the tougher ones) to 40% using this before the
chain broke and basically killed everyone (main tank dies, clerics
follow almost immediately before another tank can gain aggro, but
since the clerics are busy trying to right click their stupid BP, the
new main tank can't POSSIBLY survive long enough to get the heal).
Also remember, pre-nerf Donals, once you right clicked that BP you
weren't interrupting it. You basically was locked out of doing
anything for 20 seconds (30 seconds if you had the first nerf Donals).
If the main tank you were trying to heal dies, tough shit you couldn't
even retarget until the BP finished casting--that cleric was
effectively out of the chain for that 20 seconds. That's a LONG
fucking time with some of these Velious ubers....
Tank transition is probably the single most critical time in any
encounter. Even the initial engagement is easier to deal with than
transitioning to a new tank sometimes. Anything that makes that
transition more difficult, thanks but no thanks.
-- Sang.
Sang K. Choe
<bwi...@armoury1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3c0e0c2d....@news.isomedia.com>, Sang K. Choe
><sa...@choenet.com.remove.this.com> writes
>>100% haste is available in game right now. Dragon haste + Shissar
>>caps you at 100% haste. The *HIGHEST* mana regen item in the game
>>right now is FT 5 item off Tunare. That gives you 5 mana/tick.
>>Unless your cleric is regenning mana at 5 mana/tick, there's no such
>>thing as a 100% mana regen increase item.
>
>Apples and oranges.
>
>Until the shissar stick becomes all/all, your argument is bunk.
Fine, let's limit it to an all/all item. There's an alchemy based
potion which is a spell based haste (Flurry Quickness I think...gonna
have to check the haste level on that, but I *think* is around 50% for
the higher level one). That's not gonna haste cap you but it sure as
hell will come close.
So then, where's the 90% mana regen item?
-- Sang.
Tim Smith
> The knife is VERY cool 8), but the summon is a proc, no? Requiring you
>to nerf your own damage output (and thus increase your damage taken in a
>fight) to get the bandaids?
That's what greens are for. The knife procs frequently, and it gives
you L/2 bandages, where L is you level (max one stack), so its not
hard to get a lot of bandages safetly and quickly, if there are greens
around.
Actually, it procs often enough that I think you can even safetly use
it in real fights, without much extra risk, because you don't have to
use it long.
--Tim Smith
Ben Sisson
<locu...@bellsouth.net> (if that IS his real name) disgorged:
>> >Bammers wrote:
>> >
>> >> Why are the flowing thought items in the game so much harder to find
>than
>> >> haste items? Has anyone asked verant about this? It just doesn't seem
>to
>> >> make sense to me.
>
>Drop a clarity on a level 10 wizard and see if he ever needs to
>sit down to med for the next 20 minutes, especially if hunting
>blues. By the time you find something to kill, your mana is back...
>2 nukes, time to find another blue.
>
>Mana regen rate is MUCH more unbalancing if left uncontrolled
>than simple haste. I don't care how much you haste a warrior,
>a warrior isn't going to solo a dragon. A shaman HAS soloed
>a dragon, and that was WITHOUT some kind of weird mana
>converter (besides his own spells).
That dragon is one of the weakest dragons in the game. No AE, no
dispell, just raw melee. Its not something to get excited about.
---
Ben Sisson
"It takes more than 9 Yanks to Beat our Johnson"
-a fan banner during the World Series
Celaeno
Choe):
Yeah, heavens forbid that someone in your guild could have a shred of
roleplaying in them and not want to kill their own goddess :p
(And yes, since they are in your guild, I do believe the faction hit
matters more to them than the RP aspect)
Celaeno Duskwalker
Fier'dal wanderer of Erollisi Marr
Just Jekke
(Celaeno) wrote:
>>We'll let you know tomorrow--assuming the whiny ass high/wood elves in
>>the guild don't suddenly find a family emergency that forces them to
>>be offline...."Oh shit, my cat just coughed up a hairball! Gotta go,
>>bye."
>
>Yeah, heavens forbid that someone in your guild could have a shred of
>roleplaying in them and not want to kill their own goddess :p
>(And yes, since they are in your guild, I do believe the faction hit
>matters more to them than the RP aspect)
Generally, Wood Elves don't do anything to change their faction in
PoG. They scout. Because they are non-aggro, they can get the layout
of the zone for the puller.
For the evil races, it's a lot easier to justify hunting the homes of
your gods. After all, what's a better homage to a god of hate or fear
than to try to kill him.
--Jekke
=====================
Playing on Torvonilous
Qiin Dred (Iksar Necromancer, 54)
Moulin Khmer (Dark Elf Rogue, 49)
Sheava Ebonrezzor (Dark Elf Cleric, 39)
Greebeux Goodkitty (Iksar Warrior, 27)
Persona (Dark Elf Enchanter, 4)
Sang K. Choe
(Celaeno) wrote:
>Yeah, heavens forbid that someone in your guild could have a shred of
>roleplaying in them and not want to kill their own goddess :p
Considering they had no problems in asking others in the guild to fuck
up their faction so THEY can get phat lewts, yeah they will go and
kill their own goddess when it's time to kill her.
-- Sang.
Celaeno
>On Mon, 03 Dec 2001 00:05:05 GMT, cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com
>(Celaeno) wrote:
>
>>>We'll let you know tomorrow--assuming the whiny ass high/wood elves in
>>>the guild don't suddenly find a family emergency that forces them to
>>>be offline...."Oh shit, my cat just coughed up a hairball! Gotta go,
>>>bye."
>>
>>Yeah, heavens forbid that someone in your guild could have a shred of
>>roleplaying in them and not want to kill their own goddess :p
>>(And yes, since they are in your guild, I do believe the faction hit
>>matters more to them than the RP aspect)
>
>Generally, Wood Elves don't do anything to change their faction in
>PoG. They scout. Because they are non-aggro, they can get the layout
>of the zone for the puller.
High elves don't track. Non-KOS people are nice for harmony and safe
rezzing, but I'm pretty sure Sang had some hefty faction hits for all
in mind when he mentioned his whiny ass guildies.
>For the evil races, it's a lot easier to justify hunting the homes of
>your gods. After all, what's a better homage to a god of hate or fear
>than to try to kill him.
Well, my dark elf won't be going to Hate, unless she one day in the
remote future gets disgruntled with her Father and decides to kick his
ass. Innoruuk likes being chanted to uninterrupted, which is why he
doesn't really trust his followers after they attack him.
Celaeno
Choe):
>On Mon, 03 Dec 2001 00:05:05 GMT, cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com
In that case, you're entitled to call them whiners.
(BTW, the :p was there for a reason... I was just teasing ya. I can't
remember the last time I saw an uberguild RPer - and you don't exactly
contradict that :) - and someone high enough to do Tunare should be
able to get on with life without visiting Faydwer again... I once met
a 60 cleric who'd attacked assorted guildleaders, since he didn't need
cleric guilds anymore)
Eleena
"Celaeno" <cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3c0c1a78...@news.world-online.no...
Heh, I can see that coming back to haunt him if your guildmaster is the one
that gives out the non-level xp bonus awards
Thomas
Yes, I believe it is about 50% haste. Has about 10 charges. Last about 5
minutes, I believe. I have not actually timed it but it last about the
same as my damage shield Shield of Thorns. Very nice for those melees that
do not have a pocket enchanter or shaman. But also very costly to make
from what I have been told by my shaman friend.
-wadin pureheart of quellious
Ranger, 57 summers