Bards hide and sneak
Ben
sneak at the same time as rogues do?
Cheers
Ben
Aaron Michael Newton
: Bards get both hide and sneak at some point. Question is, can they hide &
: sneak at the same time as rogues do?
No, only rogues get hide+sneak. However, around 16 I think, bards get an
invis song. Let's you move faster than hide-sneak, but isn't as functional.
-Aaron
--
****
Aaron Newton - fign...@louisville.edu - IRC: FigNewton
Sergey Dashevskiy
says...
> Bards get both hide and sneak at some point. Question is, can they hide &
> sneak at the same time as rogues do?
Yes, they can hide and sneak at the same time. They cannot expect to
stay hidden when they move, however. That's the privilege of rogues (as
it should be, masters of stealth and all that)
>
> Cheers
> Ben
>
>
>
--
Vedun Dazhbog/Rusich Smaks, 50 shamonk
Xirinia Gusl'ar, 46 bard, Povar, MIA
Xirin, 30 druid
Leo Johnson
Rogues get sneak at 1 and hide at 3.
--
Get paid to surf the web
http://www.GoToWorld.com/getpaid/default.asp?rid=1030160235
Davian
Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.14e1d79fc...@news.msu.edu...
> In article <3a77fe05$1...@primark.com>, ben.r...@REMOVETHIS.mailcity.com
> says...
> > Bards get both hide and sneak at some point. Question is, can they
hide &
> > sneak at the same time as rogues do?
>
> Yes, they can hide and sneak at the same time. They cannot expect to
> stay hidden when they move, however. That's the privilege of rogues (as
> it should be, masters of stealth and all that)
>
And just nevermind that the invisibility song is already better than
it.... Same functionality, twice the movement rate.
Doug McNaught
> Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.14e1d79fc...@news.msu.edu...
> > Yes, they can hide and sneak at the same time. They cannot expect to
> > stay hidden when they move, however. That's the privilege of rogues (as
> > it should be, masters of stealth and all that)
> >
>
> And just nevermind that the invisibility song is already better than
> it.... Same functionality, twice the movement rate.
Ummm, I don't think the invis song gives invis to undead. Rogue
hide/sneak gives both.
Besides, players without see invis up can see invisible bards (though
you can't target them). Bit of a problem on PvP servers...
-Doug
Busker
news:OSXd6.268835$hD4.64...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
> And just nevermind that the invisibility song is already better than
> it.... Same functionality, twice the movement rate.
>
Rogue's S&H is much more effective than either Invisibility. Very few
things, living or dead, see through S&H. The downside/balance is that we're
s-l-o-o-o-o-o-w.
--
Lannella Legerdemain
Rogue of the 26th Dagger, Mistress Potter (152), Fletcher (80)
Busker Tootinflute, Bard of the 23rd Missed Note - semi-retired
Taoan, Brother of the 10th Sash, Sous Chef (115), Honourable Beggar (20)
Druzzil Ro
Sergey Dashevskiy
spam.som...@home.com says...
Don't say... There is very limited use for sneak still -- binding in
Neriak, Oggok, Grobb. When you die, and don't have a flute on you, it
comes in most handy. Provided that in all other situations invisibility
song is far superirior.
BTW, what movement speed are you talking about? Bards can't move while
using both sneak and hide. Or rather they can't stay hidden while they
move. And if you are talking about the rogue version of sneak-hide
combination, then the functionality is not similar. Sneak-hide renders
you invisible to live and dead, while invis song makes you only
invisible to live things (though still great)
Don
My WoodElf ranger has both hide and sneak.
I was under the impression tha when using sneak, I would remain hidden
when I moved..
Of course as I'm always unseen (even when hide fails) to myslef when
using a 3rd person view, it's hard to say just what it's really doing.
I'd exdpect to get a "you have moved and are no longer hidden" message
though. It's been quite awhile since I've messed with it..
In article <9591ud$anu$1...@news.louisville.edu>,
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Aaron Michael Newton
: And just nevermind that the invisibility song is already better than
: it.... Same functionality, twice the movement rate.
Oh, really? Bard song invis makes you invis to living and undead at the
same time? Oh wait, it doesn't ....
Rogue Sneak/hide is the most functional invis in the game.
Davian
> BTW, what movement speed are you talking about? Bards can't move while
> using both sneak and hide. Or rather they can't stay hidden while they
> move.
When a rogue is sneaking, he moves at half normal speed. With SoW on,
he moves normal speed.
When a bard is singing the invis song, he moves normal speed. With SoW
on, he moves at SoW speed.
Also, he can extend it to his group. Useful for meditating while
Mistmore is being trained.
Matt Frisch
scribed into the ether:
Hide and sneak is vastly superior to any form of invisibility, with very
rare exceptions.
Hide and sneak is invis to living AND dead, nobody else can do that.
Hide and sneak never wears off (except zoning), all other invises (even
bards) do.
Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through regular
invis or IVU. Nobody puts on invis spells to pull corpses in Hate.
Busker
know if your non-rogue S&H is working is to ask someone else if it's
working. Rogues also get a success/fail message for both skills.
--
Lannella Legerdemain
Rogue of the 26th Dagger, Mistress Potter (152), Fletcher (80)
Busker Tootinflute, Bard of the 23rd Missed Note - semi-retired
Taoan, Brother of the 10th Sash, Sous Chef (115), Honourable Beggar (20)
Druzzil Ro
"Don" <dlbr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:959p28$src$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Busker
> Hide and sneak is vastly superior to any form of invisibility, with very
> rare exceptions.
>
> Hide and sneak is invis to living AND dead, nobody else can do that.
>
> Hide and sneak never wears off (except zoning), all other invises (even
> bards) do.
Next week or so, when "Rogue Talk" begins with Absor, expect this to be a
significant issue.
Other topics will undoubtably appear (stacking poisons), but this is seen to
be one that most see to be possible to allow. If a rogue goes LD, he comes
back visible. If a caster goes LD, he'll come back with his Invis intact.
Same with zoning into dangerous zones.
>
> Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through regular
> invis or IVU. Nobody puts on invis spells to pull corpses in Hate.
Yup, gotta love it.
--
Lannella Legerdemain
Rogue () of the 26th Dagger, Mistress Potter (152), Fletcher (80)
Sergey Dashevskiy
matu...@yahoo.spam.me.not.com says...
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:23:58 GMT, "Davian" <spam.som...@home.com>
> scribed into the ether:
>
> >
> >Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.14e1d79fc...@news.msu.edu...
> >> In article <3a77fe05$1...@primark.com>, ben.r...@REMOVETHIS.mailcity.com
> >> says...
> >> > Bards get both hide and sneak at some point. Question is, can they
> >hide &
> >> > sneak at the same time as rogues do?
> >>
> >> Yes, they can hide and sneak at the same time. They cannot expect to
> >> stay hidden when they move, however. That's the privilege of rogues (as
> >> it should be, masters of stealth and all that)
> >>
> >And just nevermind that the invisibility song is already better than
> >it.... Same functionality, twice the movement rate.
>
> Hide and sneak is vastly superior to any form of invisibility, with very
> rare exceptions.
>
> Hide and sneak is invis to living AND dead, nobody else can do that.
>
> Hide and sneak never wears off (except zoning), all other invises (even
> bards) do.
On decent bards invis doesn't wear off. Well, it does when you go LD, but
in this case so does rogues'. The sneak-hide is instant though, and does
make you invisible to more things in general.
Bard invis makes you invisible in the water too, which hide-sneak can't
do. So it's more useful in Kedge
>
> Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through regular
> invis or IVU.
uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
you will see a hidden rogue just fine.
> Nobody puts on invis spells to pull corpses in Hate.
oh, hell no. And in City of Mist, and in Karnor. Thank god we had 3
rogues when we failed VS raid, and when we got annihilated by the lord in
CoM. Otherwise the recoveries would be more than painful
>
Busker
> in this case so does rogues'. The sneak-hide is instant though, and does
> make you invisible to more things in general.
> Bard invis makes you invisible in the water too, which hide-sneak can't
> do. So it's more useful in Kedge
Au contraire. A rogue can S&H through water but he'd better have been
working on his Swim skill 'cuz it's painfully slow, yet just as effective
inviso-wise.
> >
> > Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through
regular
> > invis or IVU.
>
> uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
> you will see a hidden rogue just fine.
Any creature of 'appropriate' level (whatever that may mean) has a tiny
chance of seeing through the S&H. In some areas caster mobs may buff
themselves or any other nearby mob with See Invis. Beware.
Matt Frisch
scribed into the ether:
>In article <3a78a6b0...@news.earthlink.net>,
>matu...@yahoo.spam.me.not.com says...
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:23:58 GMT, "Davian" <spam.som...@home.com>
>> scribed into the ether:
>> >Sergey Dashevskiy <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote in message
>> >news:MPG.14e1d79fc...@news.msu.edu...
>> >> In article <3a77fe05$1...@primark.com>, ben.r...@REMOVETHIS.mailcity.com
>> >> says...
>> >> > Bards get both hide and sneak at some point. Question is, can they
>> >hide &
>> >> > sneak at the same time as rogues do?
>> >>
>> >> Yes, they can hide and sneak at the same time. They cannot expect to
>> >> stay hidden when they move, however. That's the privilege of rogues (as
>> >> it should be, masters of stealth and all that)
>> >>
>> >And just nevermind that the invisibility song is already better than
>> >it.... Same functionality, twice the movement rate.
>>
>> Hide and sneak is vastly superior to any form of invisibility, with very
>> rare exceptions.
>>
>> Hide and sneak is invis to living AND dead, nobody else can do that.
>>
>> Hide and sneak never wears off (except zoning), all other invises (even
>> bards) do.
>
>On decent bards invis doesn't wear off. Well, it does when you go LD, but
>in this case so does rogues'. The sneak-hide is instant though, and does
>make you invisible to more things in general.
Even maximum level instrument bards can fail their skill check sometimes
and have the song go down. A rogue has to willfully do something to cause
sneak/hide to fail.
>Bard invis makes you invisible in the water too, which hide-sneak can't
>do. So it's more useful in Kedge
>> Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through regular
>> invis or IVU.
>
>uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
>you will see a hidden rogue just fine.
See invis works, and some creatures just innately see through it. Level and
skill have a lot to do with this. And there are exceptions. Ghoul Assassin
in Lguk will see a hiding rogue, but not one with IVU on.
But the fact remains, there are many, MANY creatures that cannot see a
rogue that will see everyone else.
Aaron Michael Newton
: 3rd person view *LIES* to non-rogues, plain and simple. The only way to
: know if your non-rogue S&H is working is to ask someone else if it's
: working. Rogues also get a success/fail message for both skills.
That usualy works, but I've had a few incidents on my WE warrior that has me
concerned that may lie too at times. Only thing I really trust to confirm a
non-rogue hide is to /con a monster.
Aaron Michael Newton
: "Sergey Dashevskiy" <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote in message
:> Bard invis makes you invisible in the water too, which hide-sneak can't
:> do. So it's more useful in Kedge
: Au contraire. A rogue can S&H through water but he'd better have been
: working on his Swim skill 'cuz it's painfully slow, yet just as effective
: inviso-wise.
Actually he's partly right. Rogue sneak/hide has to be engaged before
entering water, so in a place like Kedge, yeah, bard song is more useful, as
would be any invis spell.
Of course, you already said initially that sneak/hide is most effective with
rare exceptions. Kedge is unique in this respect, so I think that qualifies
as a rare exception. ^_^
Busker
news:95bmgo$2vda$2...@news.louisville.edu...
> Busker <busker...@flashmail.com> wrote:
> : "Sergey Dashevskiy" <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote in message
> :> Bard invis makes you invisible in the water too, which hide-sneak can't
> :> do. So it's more useful in Kedge
>
> : Au contraire. A rogue can S&H through water but he'd better have been
> : working on his Swim skill 'cuz it's painfully slow, yet just as
effective
> : inviso-wise.
>
> Actually he's partly right. Rogue sneak/hide has to be engaged before
> entering water, so in a place like Kedge, yeah, bard song is more useful,
as
> would be any invis spell.
True, I'd just assumed that we were talking about S&H _before_ swimming.
S&H can only be engaged on dry land. Combat would (like Invis) remove the
S&H.
>
> Of course, you already said initially that sneak/hide is most effective
with
> rare exceptions. Kedge is unique in this respect, so I think that
qualifies
> as a rare exception. ^_^
>
> -Aaron
>
> --
> ****
> Aaron Newton - fign...@louisville.edu - IRC: FigNewton
Sergey Dashevskiy
busker...@flashmail.com says...
> "Sergey Dashevskiy" <xi...@tcimet.net> wrote in message
> > On decent bards invis doesn't wear off. Well, it does when you go LD, but
> > in this case so does rogues'. The sneak-hide is instant though, and does
> > make you invisible to more things in general.
> > Bard invis makes you invisible in the water too, which hide-sneak can't
> > do. So it's more useful in Kedge
>
> Au contraire. A rogue can S&H through water but he'd better have been
> working on his Swim skill 'cuz it's painfully slow, yet just as effective
> inviso-wise.
I was not aware of that. I just took the word of my rogue friends
before, that their sneak-hide didn't help in Kedge. Just made me feel a
bit more important when my bard had to go get them at zone
>
> > >
> > > Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through
> regular
> > > invis or IVU.
> >
> > uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
> > you will see a hidden rogue just fine.
>
> Any creature of 'appropriate' level (whatever that may mean) has a tiny
> chance of seeing through the S&H.
This is (or was used to be at least) also the case with bard invis song
> In some areas caster mobs may buff
> themselves or any other nearby mob with See Invis. Beware.
>
>
>
--
Sergey Dashevskiy
@yahoo.spam.me.not.com says...
> >On decent bards invis doesn't wear off. Well, it does when you go LD, but
> >in this case so does rogues'. The sneak-hide is instant though, and does
> >make you invisible to more things in general.
>
> Even maximum level instrument bards can fail their skill check sometimes
> and have the song go down.
This is partially correct. Yes, you can miss the note. You need to miss
3 in a row for the invis to wear off though. I remember feeling totally
safe going afk in Mistmoore for hours and hours
> A rogue has to willfully do something to cause
> sneak/hide to fail.
Or go LD, like bards
>
> >Bard invis makes you invisible in the water too, which hide-sneak can't
> >do. So it's more useful in Kedge
> >> Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through regular
> >> invis or IVU.
> >
> >uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
> >you will see a hidden rogue just fine.
>
> See invis works, and some creatures just innately see through it. Level and
> skill have a lot to do with this. And there are exceptions. Ghoul Assassin
> in Lguk will see a hiding rogue, but not one with IVU on.
>
> But the fact remains, there are many, MANY creatures that cannot see a
> rogue that will see everyone else.
Yes, sneak-hide is a totally awesome tool that rogues have (and
deserve), I'm not trying to undervalue it :)
jaZZmanian Devil
thought it was about somebody who had killed and skinned a bard?
(Ok.. Jeremiah's gonna nuke me for that one)
--
Jakys the Mad Monk of Qeynos
Monk of 15 Seasons, Silent Fist
Jeremiah Kristal
<js...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
>I assume I was the only one who finally read a post in this thread because they
>thought it was about somebody who had killed and skinned a bard?
>(Ok.. Jeremiah's gonna nuke me for that one)
OK, you lost me here jaZZ, and that's hard to do, since I have had
track for 10 levels now. :) I tell you what though, the damn LD
monster has been pretty good at skinning me alive. I'm easily taking
on a couple of Frost Giants, all of a sudden I stop singing, then
disconnected and I'm nekkid in town again. Only spent 550pp so far on
rezzes because of it this week.
I think I've got the pattern figured out, so I may be able to work
around it until my ISP gets their ISDN pool fixed.
Arolpin Lorespinner
dying for all the wrong reasons
jaZZmanian Devil
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:32:23 -0500, jaZZmanian Devil
> <js...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >I assume I was the only one who finally read a post in this thread because they
> >thought it was about somebody who had killed and skinned a bard?
> >(Ok.. Jeremiah's gonna nuke me for that one)
>
> OK, you lost me here jaZZ, and that's hard to do, since I have had
> track for 10 levels now. :)
Sorry, Nips. My often too obscure sense of humor again, I guess. I was just looking
at the subject line and saw "Bard's Hide". That immediately made me think, "Bards
have a hide? Wonder where they drop it? And what do you do with it?"
Wooo Hooooo!!! Bard Skin Armor!!
Wonder what the specs on it would be?
> Arolpin Lorespinner
> dying for all the wrong reasons
I hear ya, buddy. Though I've managed to go nearly two full nights in Unrest without
dying now.
Jeremiah Kristal
<js...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
>Jeremiah Kristal wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:32:23 -0500, jaZZmanian Devil
>> <js...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I assume I was the only one who finally read a post in this thread because they
>> >thought it was about somebody who had killed and skinned a bard?
>> >(Ok.. Jeremiah's gonna nuke me for that one)
>>
>> OK, you lost me here jaZZ, and that's hard to do, since I have had
>> track for 10 levels now. :)
>
>Sorry, Nips. My often too obscure sense of humor again, I guess. I was just looking
>at the subject line and saw "Bard's Hide". That immediately made me think, "Bards
>have a hide? Wonder where they drop it? And what do you do with it?"
>Wooo Hooooo!!! Bard Skin Armor!!
>Wonder what the specs on it would be?
Aha, now I see. Though why anyone would hunt bards I'll never know.
Well, I guess for the exp and the loot, but it still rubs me the wrong
way. I do lecture people who I see camping bards (except for Ogres in
Feerrott, the bard attacks them in their home area, I guess it's
acceptable). I wish you could help NPCs of your main class and
faction, but I can see how that would get out of hand, unless you only
hunted non-PC races. As for stats, I guess it would be high AC (thick
skin) +cha and very +Resistant to Criticism.
>
>> Arolpin Lorespinner
>> dying for all the wrong reasons
>
>I hear ya, buddy. Though I've managed to go nearly two full nights in Unrest without
>dying now.
Well, I've done about 24 hours (95% of 45) in Velious with only one
non-LD death. I think this must be some sort of record for me. I've
soloed, paired, grouped small and full, killed all sorts of stuff, and
still alive. I kind of like hunting in places where I can have a
chance of running for my life and making it.
Arolpin Lorespinner
Bard of the 45th Song
Innoruuk
Mason Barge
"Ben" <ben.r...@REMOVETHIS.mailcity.com> wrote:
> Bards get both hide and sneak at some point. Question is, can they
hide &
> sneak at the same time as rogues do?
I have read about five replies and can't handle any more
misinformation, so if I'm repeating, excuse me. I'm no expert here
since I've never played a rogue, but here are the basic facts.
Sneak and hide are skills. Hide is more effective but, obviously, you
can't move around. Bard gets sneak and hide but the skill caps are so
low that it is almost useless after some early level. I think the cap
for bards is like 40 or something. Ranger cap is under 100, monk cap
is just over 100, rogue cap is at least 200. (Also some races get hide
and sneak but skill cap for race-determined hide/sneak is like 1 or
something.) Because of the cap, and because the real need for it only
occurs at very high levels, it pretty much becomes a rogue-only talent,
like lockpicking. In addition, afaik, only rogues get a fail message
when it doesn't work.
This is not to say that monks (or even rangers and bards) can't use it
effectively at some levels, just that it is temporary skill that is
going to become ineffective at higher levels.
Rogue sneak is generally the most effective means of moving invisible
in the game and in some cases the ONLY effective means of moving
invisible. It is a godsend in Hate where a rogue can pretty much move
through the whole zone unmolested for CR (although not in Fear, where
scarelings see through it from a long way off; a rogue running around
is risking a VERY hard CR). It is better than bard invis song and much
better than invis, itu, camouflage line, etc. By "better" I mean, at
skill 180+, 1) it works against both live and dead, 2) it is more
reliable, 3) it works against many mobs that will see through any other
invisibility spell. For example, revultant rats, who sometimes see
through invis and sometimes don't, never see through rogue sneak.
Three clear limitations on its usefulness are 1) it cannot be cast on
others, 2) it is a skill with reset time, and 3) rate of movement
decreases enormously.
What it DOES do is enables a raid to have a super-scout and super
corpse puller. As long as you have a cleric camped and a live rogue,
the raid is not going to turn into a disasterous CR debacle.
--
"If this is tea, please bring me some coffee. If this is coffee,
please bring me some tea."
- Abraham Lincoln
Aaron Michael Newton
: I have read about five replies and can't handle any more
: misinformation, so if I'm repeating, excuse me. I'm no expert here
: since I've never played a rogue, but here are the basic facts.
I wouldn't talk about combatting misinformation and not being an expert at
the same time...to further absolve the misinformation:
: Sneak and hide are skills. Hide is more effective but, obviously, you
: can't move around. Bard gets sneak and hide but the skill caps are so
: low that it is almost useless after some early level. I think the cap
Skill caps are not the issue. A bard moves with both sneak and hide on, and
hide will be turned off automaticly. Skill checks on hide and sneak ONLY
determine if you began sneaking or began hiding.
: better than invis, itu, camouflage line, etc. By "better" I mean, at
: skill 180+, 1) it works against both live and dead, 2) it is more
Rogue's sneak+hide ALWAYS works against both live and undead assuming the
skill check didn't fail. Skill level makes no differance.
: invisibility spell. For example, revultant rats, who sometimes see
: through invis and sometimes don't, never see through rogue sneak.
Revs *can* see through sneak hide, albeit very very rarely. I have no
informaion concerning how much more often a rat may see through invis than
sneak+hide, if any more often at all.
: others, 2) it is a skill with reset time, and 3) rate of movement
The reset time isn't a drawback really. Assuming Sneak+hide has been
engaged for 10 seconds, it can be INSTANTLY re-enganged after turning it
off. IMO, this is again better than invis spells.
jaZZ manian Devil
> Sneak and hide are skills. Hide is more effective but, obviously, you
> can't move around. Bard gets sneak and hide but the skill caps are so
> low that it is almost useless after some early level. I think the cap
> for bards is like 40 or something. Ranger cap is under 100, monk cap
> is just over 100, rogue cap is at least 200.
While I haven't reached anywhere near it yet, I have read that the monk
sneak cap is 113 if that helps. I have used it successfully on mobs
that con red to me already, and merchants who found me dubious to get
slightly better prices.
> This is not to say that monks (or even rangers and bards) can't use it
> effectively at some levels, just that it is temporary skill that is
> going to become ineffective at higher levels.
I've heard that as well, though it surely sounds like a nice skill to
have maxed in your twenties.
--
Jakys the Mad Monk of Qeynos
----
Monk of 15 Seasons. Silent Fist Clan.
Sergey Dashevskiy
> Mason Barge wrote:
>
> > Sneak and hide are skills. Hide is more effective but, obviously, you
> > can't move around. Bard gets sneak and hide but the skill caps are so
> > low that it is almost useless after some early level. I think the cap
> > for bards is like 40 or something. Ranger cap is under 100, monk cap
> > is just over 100, rogue cap is at least 200.
>
> While I haven't reached anywhere near it yet, I have read that the monk
> sneak cap is 113 if that helps. I have used it successfully on mobs
> that con red to me already,
I used it on Tektite to do the eye quest when I was 24. I'm 50, and I
believe he's still red :) It also works wonders when I bind in Neriak,
Oggok and Grobb
> and merchants who found me dubious to get
> slightly better prices.
Or rather to be able to shop with them at all. I also banked in Kelethin
with sneak, although it took a hell of a lot of feign-flopping around.
The guards suck
>
> > This is not to say that monks (or even rangers and bards) can't use it
> > effectively at some levels, just that it is temporary skill that is
> > going to become ineffective at higher levels.
>
> I've heard that as well, though it surely sounds like a nice skill to
> have maxed in your twenties.
>
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