Snare Has been Nerfed
Unknown
I'm sure they have it in the works that when you snare a running mob
that it will not run anymore and fight to the death just like root.
You know that is all Verant does is Fuck up shit, or has this happened
already? I don't play anymore but just started reading the newsgroups
after about 1 month plus of not playing this long ass sitting on ass
medding game with people wanting / needing to rotate not on special
spawns but mobs to kill to get exp bullshit.
Billy Shields
: Just Kidding. But soon very soon. (Brads famous 3 words)
Um, just between you and me: if snare meant a monster didn't try and
run and it just stood and fight instead I'd consider that a huge
*upgrade* not a nerf.
Please do that Verant!
X-Caliber
that it wont attack back if snared, and essentially you get free
attacks with no repercussion right?
By making it like root, when you snare the beastie and close to
attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3888115a$0$26...@motown.iinet.net.au...
anon
Tyre
--
"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be
normal."
- Albert
Camus -
bizbee <tub...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:38891dc9...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> Yn erthygl <869679$ivv$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>, sgrifenws
> "X-Caliber" <x...@xxx.com>:
>
> >Eh? You do know that if the monster is running away,
> >that it wont attack back if snared, and essentially you get free
> >attacks with no repercussion right?
> >By making it like root, when you snare the beastie and close to
> >attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
> >while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
> >Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
>
> and your reason for not standing back and blasting it?
X-Caliber
Mana for one... or the fact that any tanks or other
non-casters in the group that can't "blast it" still get the
benefit of risk free attack, which in turn saves the healers
a little mana, and overall reduces downtime.
The primary reason I move in for some bash 'n slash though
is to keep my weapon skills up... well, as up as possible =)
Marc Peters
monster WILL fight back at first, but then when he runs, hes basically dead
meat. Eventually his stamina gets too low, or he no longer has the strength
to move (whatever) he stops moving and you can hack away at him. He his
unable to fight back because he is unable to move.
"X-Caliber" <x...@xxx.com> wrote in message
news:869bbp$sso$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Alasdair Allan
> >attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
> >while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
> >Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
>
> and your reason for not standing back and blasting it?
Blasting is always a bad idea.
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
Sam Schlansky
<3888115a$0$26...@motown.iinet.net.au>:
>CiscoBob <> wrote:
>: Just Kidding. But soon very soon. (Brads famous 3 words)
>
>: I'm sure they have it in the works that when you snare a running
>: mob that it will not run anymore and fight to the death just
>: like root. You know that is all Verant does is Fuck up shit, or
>: has this happened already? I don't play anymore but just
>: started reading the newsgroups after about 1 month plus of not
>: playing this long ass sitting on ass medding game with people
>: wanting / needing to rotate not on special spawns but mobs to
>: kill to get exp bullshit.
>
>Um, just between you and me: if snare meant a monster didn't try
>and run and it just stood and fight instead I'd consider that a
>huge *upgrade* not a nerf.
>
>Please do that Verant!
That's because your brain is located in your sphincter.
Sam
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Pacer Featherpaw
> >that it wont attack back if snared, and essentially you get free
> >attacks with no repercussion right?
> >attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
> >while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
> >Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
>
> and your reason for not standing back and blasting it?
Not having to use mana to finish it off. When something is snared and
running, as soon as it gets to low health, it moves very slowly, or stops
dead in it's tracks and allows you to pound it the rest of the way out of
existence. This means your casters can sit and med while the tanks finish
it off. No one takes damage, mana is gained, and the mob is killed. As
opposed to rooting, where either the tanks will take additional damage, or
the casters will have to use additional mana.
I can't see them changing this. The time it happens is so late in the
battle, the difference is miniscule. Yes, you are able to recover a little
faster, but not near enough to unbalance the game.
---
Pacer Featherpaw, Ranger
Innoruuk
Roadkill
>Eh? You do know that if the monster is running away,
>that it wont attack back if snared, and essentially you get free
>attacks with no repercussion right?
>By making it like root, when you snare the beastie and close to
>attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
>while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
>Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
You're right... it wouldn't be an upgrade. It would be a "FIX".
Roadkill
The
>monster WILL fight back at first, but then when he runs, hes basically
dead
>meat. Eventually his stamina gets too low, or he no longer has the
strength
>to move (whatever) he stops moving and you can hack away at him. He his
>unable to fight back because he is unable to move.
How do they describe snare? Is the mob supposedly completely tied up, arms
and all? So when he's low on stamina he can't move at all? Or is it just
his legs that are ensnared and he has trouble running? If it's just the
legs, I'd say that allowing them to attack back when imobile (like root) is
a "FIX" and not an update or a nerf. If it's the entire body that's
suppose to be ensnared, then I'd agree that it's a nerf.
Philbo
>Um, just between you and me: if snare meant a monster didn't try and
>run and it just stood and fight instead I'd consider that a huge
>*upgrade* not a nerf.
>
>Please do that Verant!
Not that i'd mind, but why would you consider that an upgrade? Typically
if a monster doesn't do damage to someone, and then they make it so it
does, isn't considered an upgrade. At least not in my world. :)
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Philbo
>How do they describe snare? Is the mob supposedly completely tied up, arms
>and all? So when he's low on stamina he can't move at all? Or is it just
>his legs that are ensnared and he has trouble running? If it's just the
>legs, I'd say that allowing them to attack back when imobile (like root) is
>a "FIX" and not an update or a nerf. If it's the entire body that's
>suppose to be ensnared, then I'd agree that it's a nerf.
No, there is no 'fix' - If the creature isn't snared, it will run away and NOT
ATTACK you. When you snare something, this SLOWS it down, and if
their health is really low they can't move. Even when things aren't snared
sometimes they just stand there trying to get away and not attack. There
really is no 'fix' for this.
Now, why ROOT makes the creature that would normally be running away,
attack whoever until it dies is really confusing. To me, they should FIX this,
and make the creature try and run just like it would if it were not rooted, or
snared.
X-Caliber
"FIX" the Root line of spells to reflect the fact that whatever
you are fighting just entered into a state of panic that he's
getting his ass handed to him and is trying to flee... instead
of the current "I'm going to throw myself on this guys spear
and drag myself down the length of the shaft just so I can
get a couple more swings at him" attitude. Or the "Damn, I'm
a 20th level monster, surrounded by 6 20th level PC's that are
tearing my apart, I can either get ready to run, and be ready
to fly like an eagle when this root wears off... Or I can be a
total idiot and try to continue going toe to toe with them, thus
ensuring an early demise" blues.
Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
news:8EC27D67Froa...@207.126.101.100...
Pacer Featherpaw
news:8EC27D67Froa...@207.126.101.100...
>
> >Eh? You do know that if the monster is running away,
> >that it wont attack back if snared, and essentially you get free
> >attacks with no repercussion right?
> >By making it like root, when you snare the beastie and close to
> >attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
> >while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
> >Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
>
> You're right... it wouldn't be an upgrade. It would be a "FIX".
It would only be a fix if it were broken, and it's not broken. Under snare,
a mob may appear to be stuck in place, but in reality they are still trying
to run away. However, since they are so low in health, their speed has been
reduced to x%. Well, snare reduces a mobs speed by x%, so once those two
numbers match, it appears the mob is rooted because it's not moving
anymore--the snare has canceled out it's slow running speed. It's trying
to run away in place so to speak.
The only way to "Fix" it would to never have a mob run away.
John Henders
>In article <8EC27ED66roa...@207.126.101.100>, road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME (Roadkill) wrote:
>Now, why ROOT makes the creature that would normally be running away,
>attack whoever until it dies is really confusing. To me, they should FIX this,
>and make the creature try and run just like it would if it were not rooted, or
>snared.
Now this makes a lot more sense.
--
Artificial Intelligence stands no chance against Natural Stupidity.
GAT d- -p+(--) c++++ l++ u++ t- m--- W--- !v
b+++ e* s-/+ n-(?) h++ f+g+ w+++ y*
Pacer Featherpaw
news:3888a2d3$1...@goliath.newsfeeds.com...
> Now, why ROOT makes the creature that would normally be running away,
> attack whoever until it dies is really confusing. To me, they should FIX
this,
> and make the creature try and run just like it would if it were not
rooted, or
> snared.
Well, it does kind of make sense because that's what animals would normally
do in RL. Back a wild animal into a corner where they can't get away, and
they are going to fight, not try to run when it is obvious they cannot. Tie
them up with a rope, and they are going to continue to try and get away,
even though they can't thanks to the rope.
Here's my guess as to how it works (pure speculation mind you):
Mobs have a movement factor of N.
Root reduces N directly to 0, so that triggers a mob to fight back since
they know they cannot move and there is no other recourse for them.
Snare reduces N indirectly. N is still the normal movement rate, but now
the actual rate is calced at N - Snare. Since N is not zero for the mob,
they have no idea they are 'rooted' because they still have a movement
factor, and so they still try and get away.
Marc Peters
*feet* to stick to the ground. Their arms are still free, and you can be
damn sure they will be casting and attacking if they get the chance. As you
would be when trapped in a corner.
Ensnare Lowers their movement rate. When they get to weak, they are not
strong enough to move, OR swing their weapons. The spell is a slight
compromise in that the creature is allowed to run away (providing he still
has enough stamina I think). But imo, a MUCH better spell since they are an
easy target, wont fight back, AND the spell lasts a lot longer.
Oh and btw, please dont nerf ensnare - it's the only good Ranger spell I
have right now. :)
"Philbo" <ec...@oobik.com> wrote in message
news:3888a2d3$1...@goliath.newsfeeds.com...
> In article <8EC27ED66roa...@207.126.101.100>,
road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME (Roadkill) wrote:
>
> >How do they describe snare? Is the mob supposedly completely tied up,
arms
> >and all? So when he's low on stamina he can't move at all? Or is it
just
> >his legs that are ensnared and he has trouble running? If it's just the
> >legs, I'd say that allowing them to attack back when imobile (like root)
is
> >a "FIX" and not an update or a nerf. If it's the entire body that's
> >suppose to be ensnared, then I'd agree that it's a nerf.
>
> No, there is no 'fix' - If the creature isn't snared, it will run away and
NOT
> ATTACK you. When you snare something, this SLOWS it down, and if
> their health is really low they can't move. Even when things aren't snared
> sometimes they just stand there trying to get away and not attack. There
> really is no 'fix' for this.
>
> Now, why ROOT makes the creature that would normally be running away,
> attack whoever until it dies is really confusing. To me, they should FIX
this,
> and make the creature try and run just like it would if it were not
rooted, or
> snared.
>
>
>
Philbo
>
>>Eh? You do know that if the monster is running away,
>>that it wont attack back if snared, and essentially you get free
>>attacks with no repercussion right?
>>By making it like root, when you snare the beastie and close to
>>attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
>>while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
>>Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
>
>You're right... it wouldn't be an upgrade. It would be a "FIX".
No, it wouldnt. Fixing root to have the monster NOT attacking would
be a fix. Monster dont attack you when they are trying to flee when
they aren't rooted, so why should they when they ARE rooted? They
don't when they're snared, and some even run away even when snared,
Marc Peters
fighting to the death (despite the incredible odds) makes perfect sense to
me. You really expect them to submit and roll over when they can't run? They
will run when the root wears off, trust me. How is getting ready to run
after a root benificial at all to an NPC after a root. By swinging, maybe
they get one of the six to back off and buy a little time. and when they CAN
run, the HP they saved themselves may allow them to get reinforcements.
"X-Caliber" <x...@xxx.com> wrote in message
news:86ackp$644$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> I disagree, it would not be a "FIX"... I think they should
> "FIX" the Root line of spells to reflect the fact that whatever
> you are fighting just entered into a state of panic that he's
> getting his ass handed to him and is trying to flee... instead
> of the current "I'm going to throw myself on this guys spear
> and drag myself down the length of the shaft just so I can
> get a couple more swings at him" attitude. Or the "Damn, I'm
> a 20th level monster, surrounded by 6 20th level PC's that are
> tearing my apart, I can either get ready to run, and be ready
> to fly like an eagle when this root wears off... Or I can be a
> total idiot and try to continue going toe to toe with them, thus
> ensuring an early demise" blues.
>
>
> Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
> news:8EC27D67Froa...@207.126.101.100...
> >
X-Caliber
Less intelligent races, sure why not... any intelligent race though
would have a greater chance of going into shock. If the normal
joe had six guys with baseball bats surrounding him, and his legs
were tied up, odds are he would curl into the fetal position and
take a beating, not start swinging.
I guess the proper "fix" would be to code in alternate effects for
certain MOBs, something that is already done on a level basis
(for example, when my mid/high level Druid casts Combust on an Asp, it
immediatly runs... but if my lower level Enchanter casts on it, it's there
for the duration). I really don't see that happening though.
I guess I'd rather see a class enhanced rather than nerfed is all.
Marc Peters <send...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:86aiua$gla$1...@ins23.netins.net...
Matt Walters
health mob when it turns to run is a great thing for a group. It minimizes
damage on the tanks, which minimizes downtime of the group. That is called
being an effective group, which is what Verant is constantly trying to get
us to do, is it not?
Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3888115a$0$26...@motown.iinet.net.au...
> CiscoBob <> wrote:
> : Just Kidding. But soon very soon. (Brads famous 3 words)
>
> : I'm sure they have it in the works that when you snare a running mob
> : that it will not run anymore and fight to the death just like root.
> : You know that is all Verant does is Fuck up shit, or has this happened
> : already? I don't play anymore but just started reading the newsgroups
> : after about 1 month plus of not playing this long ass sitting on ass
> : medding game with people wanting / needing to rotate not on special
> : spawns but mobs to kill to get exp bullshit.
>
Billy Shields
: Eh? You do know that if the monster is running away,
: that it wont attack back if snared, and essentially you get free
: attacks with no repercussion right?
: By making it like root, when you snare the beastie and close to
: attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
: while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
: Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
Yes I do know this but 95% of the time I'm using snare to stop
runners. If snare stopped them running 100% of the time then
I'm all for it. Sure the _occasional_ monster might hit back
instead of standing there in a vain attempt to run away but
thats a small price to pay.
: Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
:>
Billy Shields
: In article <3888115a$0$26...@motown.iinet.net.au>, Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote:
:>Um, just between you and me: if snare meant a monster didn't try and
:>run and it just stood and fight instead I'd consider that a huge
:>*upgrade* not a nerf.
:>
:>Please do that Verant!
: Not that i'd mind, but why would you consider that an upgrade? Typically
: if a monster doesn't do damage to someone, and then they make it so it
: does, isn't considered an upgrade. At least not in my world. :)
Lets look at the two possibilities when a monster is snared and
decides to run:
1) Its still got enough health to move reasonably fast. This often
happens with low blues, greens and certain creatures. This is a
Bad Thing in many places. In that case I'd rather have it stick
around and fight.
2) Its injured enough that it can't move. In this case snare has
become quite a powerful root spell. Just stand away from the
monster and it can't hit you until you're ready to deal with it.
Exceptions are if you don't have that room to maneuver or if its
a caster of some sort.
All in all I find that creatures don't run at zero speed all that
often. Not often enough to justify the odd successful runner you
will get (imho).
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|All in all I find that creatures don't run at zero speed all that
|often. Not often enough to justify the odd successful runner you
|will get (imho).
If you use Root instead of Snare, the odds are 9 in 10 that you are a
moron.
How about all the times you Root something, do _not_ get a resist
message...and the mob keeps going?
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"I guess my work 'round here has all been done."
-- The Devil, "The Garden of Allah", Don Henley
Trickle
>Just Kidding. But soon very soon. (Brads famous 3 words)
>
>I'm sure they have it in the works that when you snare a running mob
>that it will not run anymore and fight to the death just like root.
As it should do if it cant move any more. Its just poor AI at the
moment. Plain and simple.
X-Caliber
any class with snare (read: Druids and Rangers) has the lamest
excuse for root imaginable, I'm all for a fix for that =)
Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:38891867$0$26...@motown.iinet.net.au...
> X-Caliber <x...@xxx.com> wrote:
> : Eh? You do know that if the monster is running away,
> : that it wont attack back if snared, and essentially you get free
> : attacks with no repercussion right?
> : By making it like root, when you snare the beastie and close to
> : attack it will attack you back just as it would had you snared it
> : while it was still aggro and not fleeing.
> : Hardly an upgrade in my <spell>book.
>
> Yes I do know this but 95% of the time I'm using snare to stop
> runners. If snare stopped them running 100% of the time then
> I'm all for it. Sure the _occasional_ monster might hit back
> instead of standing there in a vain attempt to run away but
> thats a small price to pay.
>
> : Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> : news:3888115a$0$26...@motown.iinet.net.au...
> :> CiscoBob <> wrote:
> :> : Just Kidding. But soon very soon. (Brads famous 3 words)
> :>
> :> : I'm sure they have it in the works that when you snare a running mob
> :> : that it will not run anymore and fight to the death just like root.
> :> : You know that is all Verant does is Fuck up shit, or has this
happened
> :> : already? I don't play anymore but just started reading the
newsgroups
> :> : after about 1 month plus of not playing this long ass sitting on ass
> :> : medding game with people wanting / needing to rotate not on special
> :> : spawns but mobs to kill to get exp bullshit.
> :>
Philbo
>CiscoBob <> wrote:
>
>>Just Kidding. But soon very soon. (Brads famous 3 words)
>>
>>I'm sure they have it in the works that when you snare a running mob
>>that it will not run anymore and fight to the death just like root.
>
>moment. Plain and simple.
Man... Things dont attack when they flee. When something is snared,
and it begins to flee, it still doesnt attack, even when it gets to the 'no
movement' area of it's life. How long have you been playing? It's pretty
simple to figure out what it's doing. The AI is great, as they know when
to run from something they can't possibly win. If they start to attack while
fleeing, then we should be able to attack as well while not looking at our
attackers as we zone.
Sheesh.
Trickle
>In article <3888f352...@news.clara.net>, Trickle wrote:
>>CiscoBob <> wrote:
>>
>>>Just Kidding. But soon very soon. (Brads famous 3 words)
>>>
>>>I'm sure they have it in the works that when you snare a running mob
>>>that it will not run anymore and fight to the death just like root.
>>
>>As it should do if it cant move any more. Its just poor AI at the
>>moment. Plain and simple.
>
>Man... Things dont attack when they flee. When something is snared,
>and it begins to flee, it still doesnt attack, even when it gets to the 'no
>movement' area of it's life.
I don't. If I can't move quick enough to stand a chance to get to the
zone line, I won't bother trying. I will stand and fight. I do not
expect mobs to show this level of AI. They should, however, have the
basic inteligence to know when they can't move, and might as well turn
round and attack - when snare wares off, they would then go back to
running.
Not a particularly difficult concept to grasp. Cornered animals in the
wild display this level of instinct/intelegence.
> How long have you been playing?
Only about two months.
> It's pretty simple to figure out what it's doing.
Yes. I have a ranger character. I managed to figure this out pretty
sharpish. I use snare all the time specifically because of this. Snare
deals with runners. Root can be utilised in some circumstances to give
yourself a tactical advantage.
> The AI is great, as they know when
>to run from something they can't possibly win.
No. The AI is shit. A mob will not asses the likelyhood of victory
before the battle begins like we do. It waits till it gets to a
certain level of health before running, instead of immediately going
for help like any sane person would when ganged up upon by a group of
6.
Thats just the way the game is. No problems with that. It couldn't be
handled any other way without completely redesigning the game from the
ground up.
Philbo
In any event. The only way to 'fix' this would to take the 'flee' code out of
the game. Which would probably make everyone happy EXCEPT Verant,
because there would be no trains, and no danger to dungeons. This would
also make Ranger and Druids quite useless in high level parties, which is
something else Verant doesn't want to do.
Roadkill
NOT
>ATTACK you. When you snare something, this SLOWS it down, and if
>their health is really low they can't move. Even when things aren't snared
>sometimes they just stand there trying to get away and not attack. There
>really is no 'fix' for this.
>
>Now, why ROOT makes the creature that would normally be running away,
>attack whoever until it dies is really confusing. To me, they should FIX
this,
>and make the creature try and run just like it would if it were not
rooted, or
>snared.
There's nothing wrong with root. If someone can't run at all, and they
realize it... are they going to continue to run still? Even though they
know they CAN'T? So if you're sure you're not getting away from this guy
who's about to pumble you, wouldn't you attempt to fight back? Because
it's not the ONLY way out. The way root is, makes more sense. Snare
sounds more like the confusing one, unless of course the snaring effect is
suppose to be snaring his arms up too. THEN it would make perfect sense.
But if it is only the legs that are ensnared, it doesn't make sense that
they would just lay down and LET you kill them without defending themselves
at all. So if they attack back when they can't move anymore, I'd call that
smartening up the AI. Which could be considered an update. Unless it was
always suppose to work like root, then it would be a fix.
Roadkill
>>attack whoever until it dies is really confusing. To me, they should FIX
this,
>>and make the creature try and run just like it would if it were not
rooted, or
>>snared.
>
How does that make more sense? If someone ties up your legs, does that
mean that the sensible thing to do is to LET them beat the crap out of you?
Wouldn't the more sensible thing be to try and defend yourself by fighting
back since you KNOW you can't run away anymore to avoid the fight?
Roadkill
normally
>do in RL. Back a wild animal into a corner where they can't get away, and
>they are going to fight, not try to run when it is obvious they cannot.
Tie
>them up with a rope, and they are going to continue to try and get away,
>even though they can't thanks to the rope.
>
>Here's my guess as to how it works (pure speculation mind you):
>
>Mobs have a movement factor of N.
>
>Root reduces N directly to 0, so that triggers a mob to fight back since
>they know they cannot move and there is no other recourse for them.
>
>Snare reduces N indirectly. N is still the normal movement rate, but now
>the actual rate is calced at N - Snare. Since N is not zero for the mob,
>they have no idea they are 'rooted' because they still have a movement
>factor, and so they still try and get away.
YES! Now there's some sense.
Roadkill
>I think why they attack back with root is because casting it causes their
>*feet* to stick to the ground. Their arms are still free, and you can be
>damn sure they will be casting and attacking if they get the chance. As
you
>would be when trapped in a corner.
>
>Ensnare Lowers their movement rate. When they get to weak, they are not
>strong enough to move, OR swing their weapons. The spell is a slight
>compromise in that the creature is allowed to run away (providing he still
>has enough stamina I think). But imo, a MUCH better spell since they are
an
>easy target, wont fight back, AND the spell lasts a lot longer.
>
>Oh and btw, please dont nerf ensnare - it's the only good Ranger spell I
>have right now. :)
Yes. Just as I've been saying, if this is the case as to how snare is
explained to work (ensnaring the WHOLE body and not just the feet), then
snare makes perfect sense.
Roadkill
>"FIX" the Root line of spells to reflect the fact that whatever
>you are fighting just entered into a state of panic that he's
>getting his ass handed to him and is trying to flee... instead
>of the current "I'm going to throw myself on this guys spear
>and drag myself down the length of the shaft just so I can
>get a couple more swings at him" attitude.
If he KNOWS he can't run (because of root), then why do you consider it
smart of him to try and run?
>Or the "Damn, I'm
>a 20th level monster, surrounded by 6 20th level PC's that are
>tearing my apart, I can either get ready to run, and be ready
>to fly like an eagle when this root wears off...
And when it wears off he runs... But UNTIL then, why do you consider it
SMART to just sit there and take the beating without fighting back?
>Or I can be a
>total idiot and try to continue going toe to toe with them, thus
>ensuring an early demise" blues.
If he can't move at all, and he knows it (which he does in the current EQ
setup), WHY would fighting back be considered the act of an idiot over just
standing there and taking the beating?
Roadkill
snare,
>a mob may appear to be stuck in place, but in reality they are still
trying
>to run away. However, since they are so low in health, their speed has
been
>reduced to x%. Well, snare reduces a mobs speed by x%, so once those two
>numbers match, it appears the mob is rooted because it's not moving
>anymore--the snare has canceled out it's slow running speed. It's trying
>to run away in place so to speak.
>
I was talking about it being a "fix" IF it was originally suppose to work
like root in the end. If the mobs forward momentem has been decreased to
0, there's no difference between being rooted or snared at that point. WE
know there's a difference programatically, but I'm talking mob wise. If
they are rooted, they can see that they're not going to be able to run
anywhere and make a last ditch effort at fighting until it wears off. With
snare, they eventually can't run anymore either. Yet they don't seem to
know it. Snare doesn't effect memory or the ability to tell if one is
moving or not, so it makes sense that they should realize that they can't
move and make that last ditch effort until it wears off.
Roadkill
>be a fix. Monster dont attack you when they are trying to flee when
>they aren't rooted, so why should they when they ARE rooted? They
>don't when they're snared, and some even run away even when snared,
So because you can't run away from a fight you're going to just stand there
and say "Well, okay... you can beat the crap out of me"? If you corner a
hostile animal to where they can't escape, they're GONNA fight back.
Making them just stand there when rooted would be SEVERELY stupifying them.
They KNOW they can't run, so of course they're going to make one last ditch
effort at attacking, hoping that you'll leave them alone. Updating snare
so that they realize they can't move would be smartening the AI.
Roadkill
of
>the game. Which would probably make everyone happy EXCEPT Verant,
>because there would be no trains, and no danger to dungeons. This would
>also make Ranger and Druids quite useless in high level parties, which is
>something else Verant doesn't want to do.
No, they wouldn't have to take the 'flee' code out, they'd just have to
have the mob attack when the TOTAL velocity becomes less then or equal to
0. Right now, as someone else pointed out, they attack if velocity=0.
Root most likely sets this. But they don't attack when snare overcomes
them because velocity still equals 10 (an example, not a real number) but
snare is 10. Snare is most likely based on their percentage of health
left. The less health, the greater the snare becomes. Snare is subtracted
from velocity. So if velocity-snare is equal to or less than 0, the code
that makes a mob fight back when rooted doesn't know it because velocity
itself is still above 0.
Now if they MEANT for snare to ensnare the mobs arms and all also, then
it's right and works fine. But if it was meant to only ensnare their legs,
I'd call it an oversight. The fact that they don't fight back is a symptom
of the way it was written in that case.
tim
>ec...@oobik.com (Philbo) wrote:
>
>I don't. If I can't move quick enough to stand a chance to get to the
>zone line, I won't bother trying. I will stand and fight. I do not
>expect mobs to show this level of AI. They should, however, have the
>basic inteligence to know when they can't move, and might as well turn
>round and attack - when snare wares off, they would then go back to
>running.
Cast snare on youreself sometime to see what it's like. Under differing
health, your preceptions of what's going on arn't going to be what you
think they are.
>
>Yes. I have a ranger character. I managed to figure this out pretty
>sharpish. I use snare all the time specifically because of this. Snare
>deals with runners. Root can be utilised in some circumstances to give
>yourself a tactical advantage.
Not many. I never use root. It gets broken all the time, and frankly
it does nothing but get me killed. Snare can actually save time, effort,
and with A LOT of luck, my ass when properly applied.
>> The AI is great, as they know when
>>to run from something they can't possibly win.
>
>No. The AI is shit. A mob will not asses the likelyhood of victory
>before the battle begins like we do. It waits till it gets to a
>certain level of health before running, instead of immediately going
>for help like any sane person would when ganged up upon by a group of
>6.
Actually he's right and you're wrong. The speed at which something
is damaged alongh with your health has more to do with when it runs
than the amount of damage you've done on it. You just havn't had
to clear enough green crap out to get stuff worth killing to spawn
to see how it really behaves.
>Thats just the way the game is. No problems with that. It couldn't be
>handled any other way without completely redesigning the game from the
>ground up.
This whole argument is pretty stupid actually. Snare is supposed to
SLOW something down, root is supposed to STOP it. Monsters as you
kill them when they are running slow down natualy, just like you do.
Snare makes that slower happen faster.
What? Like it should be changed to where when a monster is being beaten
on and it's snared, as soon as it's movement gets to a point where it's
allmsot stopped, snare gets morphed into root? Which breaks becasue you're
hitting the monster at the time, and it then gets to run off at full
speed? Or better yet, beat on you when you're at low health?
Ensnaring roots is broken enough (both figurativly and literaly), the
last thing that needs to happen is for snare to become a cocked up
mess.
ME
Morgan
>
> In article <3889e27c...@news.clara.net>, Trickle <Trickle> wrote:
> >ec...@oobik.com (Philbo) wrote:
> >
> >> The AI is great, as they know when
> >>to run from something they can't possibly win.
> >
> >No. The AI is shit. A mob will not asses the likelyhood of victory
> >before the battle begins like we do. It waits till it gets to a
> >certain level of health before running, instead of immediately going
> >for help like any sane person would when ganged up upon by a group of
> >6.
>
> Actually he's right and you're wrong. The speed at which something
> is damaged alongh with your health has more to do with when it runs
> than the amount of damage you've done on it. You just havn't had
> to clear enough green crap out to get stuff worth killing to spawn
> to see how it really behaves.
I think it's actually a function of level, not rate of damage. I
hurt things very slowly when I melee them (Enchanters are not
impressive with weapons) even if they are very green.
A monster will run when it hits a certain percentage of its health.
If the monster is green to you, that percentage is higher than if
the monster is blue to you. I think the highest percentage is
around 50% for very low greens. If there is more than one person
attacking it, it responds to the highest level foe.
> >Thats just the way the game is. No problems with that. It couldn't be
> >handled any other way without completely redesigning the game from the
> >ground up.
>
> This whole argument is pretty stupid actually. Snare is supposed to
> SLOW something down, root is supposed to STOP it. Monsters as you
> kill them when they are running slow down natualy, just like you do.
> Snare makes that slower happen faster.
>
> What? Like it should be changed to where when a monster is being beaten
> on and it's snared, as soon as it's movement gets to a point where it's
> allmsot stopped, snare gets morphed into root? Which breaks becasue you're
> hitting the monster at the time, and it then gets to run off at full
> speed? Or better yet, beat on you when you're at low health?
>
> Ensnaring roots is broken enough (both figurativly and literaly), the
> last thing that needs to happen is for snare to become a cocked up
> mess.
I think you are misinterpreting the suggestion.
Snare slows down movement. Being wounded slows down movement.
Between them, it is possible for movement to drop to zero. A
monster whose movement rate is zero should never enter flee mode
because it can't actually flee. This does not mean that Snare
becomes Root and gets broken by damage. It means that monsters
will never stand in one place facing away and not swinging back.
--
Morgan
(crossposting all posts to rec.games.computer.everquest)
X-Caliber
weapons is to drop and cover your head and vitals, unless of
course you are suicidal, then by all means, stand there and take
on 6 guys with baseball bats and tire irons.
Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
news:8EC559EFAroa...@207.126.101.100...
> >>Now, why ROOT makes the creature that would normally be running away,
> >>attack whoever until it dies is really confusing. To me, they should FIX
> this,
> >>and make the creature try and run just like it would if it were not
> rooted, or
> >>snared.
> >
> >Now this makes a lot more sense.
>
> How does that make more sense? If someone ties up your legs, does that
> mean that the sensible thing to do is to LET them beat the crap out of
X-Caliber
and by all means, code up them Lions, Tigers and Bears (oh my)
to fight to the death... but any *intelligent* creature will have
a little more sense.
Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
news:8EC55D93Aroa...@207.126.101.100...
X-Caliber
Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
> If he KNOWS he can't run (because of root), then why do you consider it
> smart of him to try and run?
I don't, I consider it smart for him to go on the defensive.
> And when it wears off he runs... But UNTIL then, why do you consider it
> SMART to just sit there and take the beating without fighting back?
In a real life situation, you are much more likely to survive someone
beating on
your back, rather than your chest and stomach. But since this game is
hardly
*real* I would settle for a greatly reduced Atk value, and an increase AC
value when the monster can't run in "flee" mode. I just don't think giving
a
panicking monster no penalty whatsoever is ludicrous.
> If he can't move at all, and he knows it (which he does in the current EQ
> setup), WHY would fighting back be considered the act of an idiot over
just
> standing there and taking the beating?
Best offense is a good defense... Why wouldn't he devote more effort into
parrying
the blows untill the root wears off and he can run? and in some situations,
where
my party was fighting more than one mob, if one went into "flee" mode and
was low enough
that he wasn;t moving, or not moving fast, we ignore him and beat another to
minimize
damage taken... in this situation, is is very much more intelligent to NOT
attack, and
hop the rot wears off while everyone is busy. And EQ's AI can NOT do
that...
I'm just saying there are better options available... take the warrior's
berserk ability,
and modify it to reflect a defensive posture, and apply. Seems easy enough.
Pacer Silverfang
Are you saying that if an "intellegent" creature is backed into a no-escape
situation, they would not turn and fight if they had no other recourse? I
have to disagree. I know if I was in such a situation, I would not cower in
the corner and await death, I would at least try and get out of it. I also
know that if the possibility still existed for me to escape (me not in a
box, but attached to a rope with open area around me), I would look for all
avenues of escape before giving in.
Please explain what sense an intellegent creature would have that is
differnet. Not trying to troll you or anything, I'm just not clear on your
point is all! =)
---
Pacer Silverfang, Ranger
Innoruuk
X-Caliber <x...@xxx.com> wrote in message
news:86j16b$doh$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> Makes sense if you are fighting wild animals, I agree,
> and by all means, code up them Lions, Tigers and Bears (oh my)
> to fight to the death... but any *intelligent* creature will have
> a little more sense.
>
>
> Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
Roadkill
That would be smart, agreed. But they DON'T go on the defensive. They
just stand there and let you beat them down. No increased defense,
parrying, or dodging. In fact, I never see them dodge or parry AT ALL when
in flee mode. If they went into defense mode, it would make more sense
also.
>> And when it wears off he runs... But UNTIL then, why do you consider
>> it SMART to just sit there and take the beating without fighting back?
>
>In a real life situation, you are much more likely to survive someone
>beating on
>your back, rather than your chest and stomach. But since this game is
>hardly
>*real* I would settle for a greatly reduced Atk value, and an increase
>AC value when the monster can't run in "flee" mode. I just don't think
>giving a
>panicking monster no penalty whatsoever is ludicrous.
But they DID give them a penalty. A HUGE penalty that started this
discusion. The stop attacking AND defending and do nothing but run slower
and slower until they're just standing there taking the blows. They either
need to start attacking back to defend themselves, or start doing some
heavy defense.
>Best offense is a good defense... Why wouldn't he devote more effort
>into parrying
>the blows untill the root wears off and he can run?
Yes, that would be good. Snare makes them look dumb (not that they don't
already, but that's a different story), because they're smart enough to
know what to do when rooted but not when snared. Like it was overlooked,
or just not finished when snare was programmed in. More like a symtom of
tying "start attacking because you can't move" to "if velocity<=0" instead
of "if velocity-snare<=0". When rooted, they go back out of flee mode,
start attacking, and parry, dodge, riposte etc. But not with snare. Even
if they don't attack back, at least dodging and parrying and such should
work. Maybe even weight it double since they're not taking the time to
attack anymore.
> and in some
>situations, where
>my party was fighting more than one mob, if one went into "flee" mode
>and was low enough
>that he wasn;t moving, or not moving fast, we ignore him and beat
>another to minimize
>damage taken... in this situation, is is very much more intelligent to
>NOT attack, and
>hop the rot wears off while everyone is busy.
Yes, that's a smart strategy.
>And EQ's AI can NOT do that...
No it can't, you're right. But mobs rooting one of you when you run and
leaving you alone and going after the other members to come back to you
later isn't what we're talking about here. Even if mobs COULD do this, I'd
start attacking again while rooted when the mob gets close enough again.
Why? Because there's nothing else I can do. It's better that I inflict
damage upon them in hopes that I'll get lucky rather than just turning off
auto-attack and letting him kill me.
>I'm just saying there are better options available... take the warrior's
>berserk ability,
>and modify it to reflect a defensive posture, and apply. Seems easy
>enough.
Yes there are. I was just pointing out one that's already in the game,
just overlooked.
X-Caliber
Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
<<SNIP>>
> >I'm just saying there are better options available... take the warrior's
> >berserk ability,
> >and modify it to reflect a defensive posture, and apply. Seems easy
> >enough.
>
> Yes there are. I was just pointing out one that's already in the game,
> just overlooked.
You know the sad thing though? we can sit around and discuss this for
another month, have a thread that is 1000's of messages long about
*better* ways to handle snare than making it a root clone, and
nobody at Verant would even read it, make a comment on it, or
take any idea into consideration other than their own =(
But hey, that's what I pay for (wow, that really *is* what I pay for!
depressing)
X-Caliber
I'm saying that the intelligent thing to do when you take on
multiple opponents (unarmed or armed with hand weapons),
and start to lose, is to cover your vitals, would you stretch
yourself out for those 6 people with baseball bats to pound
on you, giving them such lucious targets as your head, stomach,
chest, groin, neck etc.? or do you curl up in the good ole fetal
position and take the beating on your back and limbs?
Like I mentioned in another post, a really simple and easy
way to make the stopped snare effect, and root for that matter
when the beasties health gets low... would be to modify the
Warrior's berserk ability to reflect a defensive posture (decrease
ATK value, Increase AC value) and apply it to MOB's that
have their velocity set to 0...
An even better way IMO that would take a little more coding,
is to drop the creatures ATK value, and give an increased
Parry/Dodge ability...
Pacer Silverfang <pace...@remove-this.iname.com> wrote in message
news:s8qkek7...@news.supernews.com...
> > Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
Roadkill
>another month, have a thread that is 1000's of messages long about
>*better* ways to handle snare than making it a root clone, and
>nobody at Verant would even read it, make a comment on it, or
>take any idea into consideration other than their own =(
>
>But hey, that's what I pay for (wow, that really *is* what I pay for!
>depressing)
I don't know... there are a lot of suggestions in here that have made it
into the game. Criticals for rangers archery, I believe critical for
warriors originally came from someones suggestion in here to give warriors
a specialization of sorts, Paladins and Shadowknights got buffed after
massive debate in here and other places, fog got reduced after massive
complaints in here... etc. There are many others. I've even seen ideas
posted here that Gordon said was a good idea and that he was forwarding it
to the development team. Of course, most of these changes came from people
bitching over and over instead of ideas and opinions discussed calmly.
X-Caliber
newsgroup... been a while since I've seen a post) replying to a buch
of "Screw Verant" and "Please make my class the strongest" posts and
completely ignore any threads with very good discussions going on...
I'm not saying he never read em, but sure would be nice to know
whether he did or not than post a bunch of messages defending Verant...
Unfortunately you hit it on the head I think, It takes a concerted effort
of a lot of people complaining to change anything, not a lot of people
who just want it changed... complaining is almost a mandatory requirement.
Warrior's crit hit? much complaining. SK and Pal? much complaining.
Ranger's crit hit? complaining, though not that bad.
Fog? Complaining, though Verant had already stated it was a bug with
that latest patch, and not meant to be that way, and they were already
working on a fix. Hell, I honestly believe the reason Rogue's haven't been
seriously ramped up is because not enough people play them to give the
argument enough voice.
Roadkill <road...@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
news:8EC66972Broa...@207.126.101.100...
Mark Sheldon
>In a real life situation, you are much more likely to survive someone
>beating on
>your back, rather than your chest and stomach. But since this game is
>hardly
>*real* I would settle for a greatly reduced Atk value, and an increase AC
>value when the monster can't run in "flee" mode. I just don't think giving
>a panicking monster no penalty whatsoever is ludicrous.
this leads 2 a suggestion 4 a poss warrior skill that could B applied over
2 NPCs....if 3 styles of fiting were allowed, offensive, Dfensive & normal,
wiv offensive praps 125% ave dmg, 150% mob ave dmg; Dfensive as, say,
67% ave dmg, 75% mob ave dmg
this would allow 4 wars 2 use sum simple tactics in fites ravver than
hitting
kick/taunt now & then...use Dfensive initially in a grp...if mob aggros
summat else hit taunt/offensive till it cums back, then Dfensive again.
This could B ezily applied 2 fleeing mobs of course.
(-: Zel :-)
Mason Barge
>>In a real life situation, you are much more likely to survive someone
>>beating on
>>your back, rather than your chest and stomach. But since this game is
>>hardly
>>*real* I would settle for a greatly reduced Atk value, and an increase AC
>>value when the monster can't run in "flee" mode. I just don't think giving
>>a panicking monster no penalty whatsoever is ludicrous.
>
I haven't been following this thread, but as far as I have noticed, snared
retreating mobs do have a penalty -- they don't fight back and more than they
do when running, and the ones that don't turn and hit when retreating just
stand there and die when snared. I noticed this the other night killing ogre
guards. The snared ones do not hit at all.
I'd quibble with the "real life situation" remark too. Sure if you're
surrounded and being beaten up, you'll curl into a ball to present your back
and protect your head and gut. But an armored warrior with a weapon and shield
is more vulnerable from the back.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me
some coffee."
- Abraham Lincoln
Jeremy Music
>X-Caliber wrote
>>In a real life situation, you are much more likely to survive someone
>>beating on
>>your back, rather than your chest and stomach. But since this game is
>>hardly
>>*real* I would settle for a greatly reduced Atk value, and an increase AC
>>value when the monster can't run in "flee" mode. I just don't think giving
>>a panicking monster no penalty whatsoever is ludicrous.
>
>
>2 NPCs....if 3 styles of fiting were allowed, offensive, Dfensive & normal,
>wiv offensive praps 125% ave dmg, 150% mob ave dmg; Dfensive as, say,
>67% ave dmg, 75% mob ave dmg
>this would allow 4 wars 2 use sum simple tactics in fites ravver than
>hitting
>kick/taunt now & then...use Dfensive initially in a grp...if mob aggros
>summat else hit taunt/offensive till it cums back, then Dfensive again.
>This could B ezily applied 2 fleeing mobs of course.
>
> (-: Zel :-)
Common please.
J
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wyld Knight - wyld.qx.net 3333
http://wyld.qx.net/~rezo
re...@lords.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Erin Smith
> this leads 2 a suggestion 4 a poss warrior skill that could B applied over
> 2 NPCs....if 3 styles of fiting were allowed, offensive, Dfensive & normal,
> wiv offensive praps 125% ave dmg, 150% mob ave dmg; Dfensive as, say,
> 67% ave dmg, 75% mob ave dmg
> this would allow 4 wars 2 use sum simple tactics in fites ravver than
> hitting
> kick/taunt now & then...use Dfensive initially in a grp...if mob aggros
> summat else hit taunt/offensive till it cums back, then Dfensive again.
> This could B ezily applied 2 fleeing mobs of course.
>
> (-: Zel :-)
Hey, could you please speak common? I didn't waste my skill points
learning whatever language that is trying to be...
--
Erin Smith (lady...@yahoo.com)
Kulani Shadowdancer, 30 Druid on E. Marr
ICQ # 58162391
--Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea --
massive, difficult to redirect, awe inspiring, entertaining, and a
source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.--
--Gene Spafford--
Alasdair Allan
Mason Barge <mason...@aol.comnospam> wrote in article
<20000216133902...@ng-ba1.aol.com>...
> >X-Caliber wrote
> >>In a real life situation, you are much more likely to survive someone
> >>beating on
> >>your back, rather than your chest and stomach. But since this game is
> >>hardly
> >>*real* I would settle for a greatly reduced Atk value, and an increase
AC
> >>value when the monster can't run in "flee" mode. I just don't think
giving
> >>a panicking monster no penalty whatsoever is ludicrous.
> >
>
> I haven't been following this thread, but as far as I have noticed, snared
> retreating mobs do have a penalty -- they don't fight back and more than
they
> do when running, and the ones that don't turn and hit when retreating just
> stand there and die when snared. I noticed this the other night killing
ogre
> guards. The snared ones do not hit at all.
IME, there is *always* an Atk bonus from the rear. Someone should do a
study (in duel would work fine for this) and confirm what sort of percentage
bonus you get. You notice this quite a lot if you are a secondary meléeist
most of the time (as, say, a Shaman is). I'd never have picked it up with
my Paladin who is usually the primary tank.
In addition Bash/Slam stuns the target close to 80% from the rear, whereas
from the frost Bash/Slam seldom stun. (Yes, this is why you get stunned so
much when you are pulling/fleeing).
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism