Gordon's recent revelations on stats and an obvious question
JubJub McRae
devoted to buffing them?
Sam Schlansky
<386d43f0...@news.ne.mediaone.net>:
>If stats truly border on meaningless, why are there entire spell
>lines devoted to buffing them?
Why are there there whole spell lines like Yaulp, Frenzy, Sense Magic, disease
debuffs, druid pet buffs (when they can only charm to get pets), magician
summoning useless weapons, ensnare (not snare, ensnare), abolish poison/disease
(when counteract removes EVERY poison/disease in the game with one shot),
banshee aura (necro self-only damage shield), bind sight, glimpse....
There are hundreds of useless spells in Everquest. You're asking the wrong
question, JubJub.
The RIGHT question is: "Why is an entire class based upon useless stat buffs?"
Every casting class has something it does best or unique...
Cleric: best heals, ressurect
Druid: damage shields, teleports, pack chloroplast
Enchanter: crowd control, clarity, charm
Magician: pets, summoning items, damage shields
Necromancer: pets, DoT's
Wizard: best DD, teleports
then:
Shaman: Umm.... pets? No... shaman pets suck. DoT's? Maybe at 50, but before
then, not really... Stat buffs? Useless.
So what does the shaman do best? Sure, shamen are a balanced class, no doubt
about it, even without stat buffs... but where druids get teleports, we get
stat buffs. Doesn't that seem a bit, well, lame?
Actually, I shouldn't say that. We get THREE bind sight spells, more than any
other class. Rock on!
Sam
--
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/| I speak for myself only unless noted otherwise.
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J. Donnelly
>other class. Rock on!
>
>Sam
Actually..... ;-)
Lumina, 39th Enchanter of Tunare.
Paul Szymanski
fixed max damage and STR increases the chances of getting close to that
maximum. I have noticed after STr buffs I hit more consistently fer a gud
amount of damage. Obviously hp buff makes a difference. Same with Armor
Class whereas it deacreses the chances for the baddie to hit you fer
maximum damage or at all thats why sometimes you notice weaker monsters
hitting you fer the same damage when you were lower level. If by some
small chance stats are really useless then Verant has used the RPG genre
to sell this 1st person shooter hahah.
Gudbasher of Terra Marr
Paul Phillips
Naw, really there's a huge difference in your characters performance
with a dex of 120 compared to 101, or is is 98 and 101? Well, strength
matters right? No? What stats DO matter?
Paul
JubJub McRae wrote:
>
> If stats truly border on meaningless, why are there entire spell lines
> devoted to buffing them?
--
----------------------------
A Day In The Life - Beatles
----------------------------
Your alt.games.everquest faction has gotten Worse.
Your alt.stupidity Faction has Improved.
-----------------------------
This life is their escape.
Sam Schlansky
-server.triad.rr.com>:
*slaps himself on his forehead in disgust*
Quantum Mechanic
Schlansky) wrote:
Yeah ! What Sam said !!
Oh but wait.. we have SHRINK and ALCHEMI and MALOSI I ! ! ! haha..
Wait, I'm a Shaman,, that isn't funny.
I'll trade agi / dex / str buffs for a AE Togor's Insects. Since
Togor's doesn't aggro mezzed mobs it would be much easier than trying
to click and guess which mob in the pile you have actually targeted.
And I'll trade my bind sight spells and my summon druid line for a
"Summon big ugly ass-kicking giant spider" spell. Dogs suck for Trolls
and Ogres... We eat dogs we don't pet them.
Quantum Mechanic - Oh well, at least I'm not a Rogue.
>mrju...@REMOVETHISPART.hotmail.com (JubJub McRae) wrote in
><386d43f0...@news.ne.mediaone.net>:
---snip----
>
>The RIGHT question is: "Why is an entire class based upon useless stat buffs?"
>
>Every casting class has something it does best or unique...
>
>Cleric: best heals, ressurect
>Druid: damage shields, teleports, pack chloroplast
>Enchanter: crowd control, clarity, charm
>Magician: pets, summoning items, damage shields
>Necromancer: pets, DoT's
>Wizard: best DD, teleports
>
>then:
>
>Shaman: Umm.... pets? No... shaman pets suck. DoT's? Maybe at 50, but before
>then, not really... Stat buffs? Useless.
>
>So what does the shaman do best? Sure, shamen are a balanced class, no doubt
>about it, even without stat buffs... but where druids get teleports, we get
>stat buffs. Doesn't that seem a bit, well, lame?
>
Alasdair Allan
> JubJub McRae wrote:
> >
> > If stats truly border on meaningless, why are there entire spell lines
> > devoted to buffing them?
>
No. They *were* supposed to be meaningless. One of hte initial design
intentions of Verant was that a Gnome Warrior would be as viable as an Ogre
Warrior.
There are two ways of making this happen. You balance the effect stats
have so that the additional Agility of a Gnome allows them to take less
damage and the additional Strength of the Ogre lets them do more damage.
This would be *increedibly* difficult to do while remaining balanced. It
would also require a work ethic and quality ethos which Verant have
consistently shown they do not possess nor want.
Your alternative is to make stats close to meaningless. This was their
choice from the outset and given it works.
> Naw, really there's a huge difference in your characters performance
> with a dex of 120 compared to 101, or is is 98 and 101? Well, strength
> matters right? No? What stats DO matter?
The only stat that will give a noticeable effect is Dex and even then in
only a few situations, i. for Chanelling - but then the only caster likely
to be in combat and therefore relying on chanelling is the Shaman, ii. for
Weapon Procs - even here you need *massive* amounts of Dex to get a
worthwhile effect.
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
Alasdair Allan
> mrju...@REMOVETHISPART.hotmail.com (JubJub McRae) wrote
> >If stats truly border on meaningless, why are there entire spell
> >lines devoted to buffing them?
>
>
> then:
>
> Shaman: Umm.... pets? No... shaman pets suck.
Shaman pets do *not* suck. Not even remotely when you consider what else
the class can do. The Shaman at 50 is the best class at doing mana damage
- and this damage is low taunt in nature plus Shamans are the master at
reducing mob damage. Pets are icing.
> DoT's? Maybe at 50, but before
> then, not really... Stat buffs? Useless.
There is someone on this board that says "I only care about power at 50
nothing else matters". Can't recall who off hand.
The Shaman is one of the "three gods" at 50. Sure their path there is
*much*, *much* harder than the Necro or Enchanter. But at least you can
say they deserve to get their reward.
> So what does the shaman do best? Sure, shamen are a balanced class, no
doubt
> about it, even without stat buffs... but where druids get teleports, we
get
> stat buffs. Doesn't that seem a bit, well, lame?
If Shamans did get teleports, they would be the most dominant class in the
game. Far more so than even Necros are becoming - who wouldn't trade the
ability to solo level 50 mobs for the ability to still be able to down
level 45 mobs (more than any other class) *and* teleports.
Still - take away the stat buffs and gimme personal teleports.
> Actually, I shouldn't say that. We get THREE bind sight spells, more than
any
> other class. Rock on!
Hey, Vision is fun. Rage is fun. If there were no fun spells, then fuck
all the power in the world. Fuck it right in the head. Fun matters, this
is an entertainment.
Mark Mealman
>Stats do make a difference in my short experince. Every weapon has a
>fixed max damage and STR increases the chances of getting close to that
>maximum. I have noticed after STr buffs I hit more consistently fer a gud
Str increases your maximum, but your average damage stays the same.
The proof is in the statistics:
server5.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathgeneral.showMessage?topicID=522.topic
The Paladins in the game have done some wonderful stat tests. Romidar
Trueblade of Xegony in particular has done some really nice work with long
term tests on logs.
The end results of paladin tests show that:
AC means everything.
Str is nice for carrying things.
Dex is okay if you have a proc weapon.
Agil is okay, if you've reached your AC level cap.
But nothing is better than AC(for a melee class).
I have to say that I'm extremely disappointed in Verant for purposefully
making stats so useless in this game. Once you get above 75, there's almost
no reason to raise your stats higher for combat purposes.
Demi-humans take a exp hit specifically because they have better stats.
Aside from int/wis on casters, these increased stats mean nothing.
I'm sure we'll see people put forth that Gordan is wrong, stats do mean
something simply because they don't want to believe that the Serp Bracer
they traded 2k plat for is worth less than a bronze bracer.
But Romidar's stats have proven time and time again that statistics in EQ do
very little for your character.
This is probably the poorest design descision for EQ to date.
-Mark
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Mark Mealman
>Paul Phillips <il...@technologist.com> wrote
>The only stat that will give a noticeable effect is Dex and even then in
>only a few situations, i. for Chanelling - but then the only caster likely
>to be in combat and therefore relying on chanelling is the Shaman, ii. for
>Weapon Procs - even here you need *massive* amounts of Dex to get a
>worthwhile effect.
Dex does not in any way affect your ability to channel.
That myth was dispelled some time ago by GZ.
I completely agree with your assessment on dex vs weapon procs.
Now that we Know, dex has become a completely useless stat.
zi...@my-deja.com
procs. If you have a procing weapon then getting your dex up real high
without sacrificing AC is a very very good way to go.
In article <slrn86pjpv....@winter.tarsis.org>,
> -Mark
>
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Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Quantum Mechanic
<postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
---Snip---
>
>Shaman pets do *not* suck. Not even remotely when you consider what else
>the class can do.
The pet sucks compared to all the other class pets except for SK's
pet. A Necro pet Eats my dog alive, it isn't even close.
As far as the icing thing,, it's not like all a Necro can do is summon
pets and DoT. They have their fair share of utility spells also.
>The Shaman at 50 is the best class at doing mana damage
Not arguing with you on this.. just not sure I understand what you
mean.
Druid lvl 44 DoT Drifting Death 190 manage 810 damage 45 seconds
4.26 damage per 1 manage spent.
Necro lvl 49 Bond of Death - 360 manage 800 points of Life tap type
damage. ( 1 minute ? 45 secs ?) 0 initial damage so 0 aggro , heals
800 points of damage. 2.22 damage per 1 manage spent
Shaman lvl 49 DoT Envenomed Bolt 320 manage 1125 damage 45 seconds
3.51 damage per 1 manage spent.
-
Necro lvl 49 DoT Ignite Blood 250 manage 1200 damage 2 minutes
4.8 damage per 1 manage spent.
Shaman lvl 49 DoT Plague 300 manage 1190 damage 2 minutes
3.9 damage per 1 manage spent.
-
Druid lvl 49 DD Starfire 250 manage 612 dmg fire 2.44dmg per 1
manage
Necro lvl 44 DD Ignite bones 210 manage 500 damage (at lvl 50) . Also
turns mob into a skeleton and slows it down. 2.3dmg per 1 manage
Shaman lvl 44 DD Blizzard Blast 200 manage 425 dmg 2.12dmg per 1
manage
>- and this damage is low taunt in nature plus Shamans are the master at
>reducing mob damage. Pets are icing.
Low taunt my hairy troll butt.. Envenomed Bolt is insta taunt even
when it is resisted.
How are we the master at reducing mob damage ? I think Enchanter is
the master, lord and God of reducing mob damage. Not only can they
slow attack speed as well (some say better) than shaman but six mobs
standing around mezzed deal 0 damage ...
>
>> DoT's? Maybe at 50, but before
>> then, not really... Stat buffs? Useless.
>
>There is someone on this board that says "I only care about power at 50
>nothing else matters". Can't recall who off hand.
>
>The Shaman is one of the "three gods" at 50.
I believe our God status (if we are Gods) was partially due to the
misconception most people had/have concerning the usefulness of our
stat buffs..
---Snip----
>who wouldn't trade the
>ability to solo level 50 mobs for the ability to still be able to down
>level 45 mobs (more than any other class) *and* teleports.
>
Lost me. Shaman can Solo lvl 50 mobs and Necros can't ?
--snip---
>
>Hey, Vision is fun. Rage is fun. If there were no fun spells, then fuck
>all the power in the world. Fuck it right in the head. Fun matters, this
>is an entertainment.
Shrink is fun but what is so fun about Vision or Rage ?
Quantum Mechanic - level 50 Troll Shaman -
Quantum Mechanic
Goddamn Spell Checker... Manage = Manna
Quantum Mechanic - Goddamn spell checker.
JubJub McRae
<Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:44:19 GMT, "Alasdair Allan"
><postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>---Snip---
>>
>>Shaman pets do *not* suck. Not even remotely when you consider what else
>>the class can do.
>
>The pet sucks compared to all the other class pets except for SK's
>pet. A Necro pet Eats my dog alive, it isn't even close.
Not at all - pet does fine, fills its role marvelously.. I have a
magician and shaman, both 35th level. The magician's water pet could
tear the shaman's up, but know what - the shaman's pet does it's job,
we don't need it, but it makes us a better class. The magician's pet
doesn't do that job. They NEED the pet, and even with the pet, it's
not strong enough to make them a complete class. Relying on DD is a
class flaw in EQ.
Quantum Mechanic
The first level 50 on Tribunal was a Mage (GM broadcast it across the
server when Smirky made 50) . Over the next week or so the majority of
/who 50 was Necro, Druid and Mage and 1 Enchanter for a long time.
I was the first level 50 Shaman on Tribunal (Troll) with another just
a little bit behind me (Barbarian) and the next closest Shaman after
him was level 42 . Now it was almost 2 months after the mage made
level 50 before the first Shaman did. By the time we reached 50
there were more level 50 mages, Necro's and Druids then you could
shake a stick at . The only other two classes that had no level 50's
(and still don't to my knowledge) was Rogue and Shadowknight...
I'm not saying that Mages are God's because one got to level 50 before
anyone else but it seems like those pets seem to do their job. Smirky
and a lot of other level 50's seem able to make their pets walk the
walk and talk the talk.
Then again I have never played a Mage so I could easily be wrong.
Quantum Mechanic - It was a long hard climb and when I got there I
wondered why the hell I did it.
Trest
things. They can take most rolls in a group.. and i love being a casting
Troll damnit..
Trest
Sam Schlansky wrote in message <8EAD1EC68vi...@207.126.101.100>...
>mrju...@REMOVETHISPART.hotmail.com (JubJub McRae) wrote in
><386d43f0...@news.ne.mediaone.net>:
>
>>If stats truly border on meaningless, why are there entire spell
>>lines devoted to buffing them?
>
>Why are there there whole spell lines like Yaulp, Frenzy, Sense Magic,
disease
>debuffs, druid pet buffs (when they can only charm to get pets), magician
>summoning useless weapons, ensnare (not snare, ensnare), abolish
poison/disease
>(when counteract removes EVERY poison/disease in the game with one shot),
>banshee aura (necro self-only damage shield), bind sight, glimpse....
>
>There are hundreds of useless spells in Everquest. You're asking the wrong
>question, JubJub.
>
>The RIGHT question is: "Why is an entire class based upon useless stat
buffs?"
>
>Every casting class has something it does best or unique...
>
>Cleric: best heals, ressurect
>Druid: damage shields, teleports, pack chloroplast
>Enchanter: crowd control, clarity, charm
>Magician: pets, summoning items, damage shields
>Necromancer: pets, DoT's
>Wizard: best DD, teleports
>
>then:
>
>Shaman: Umm.... pets? No... shaman pets suck. DoT's? Maybe at 50, but
before
>then, not really... Stat buffs? Useless.
>
>So what does the shaman do best? Sure, shamen are a balanced class, no
doubt
>about it, even without stat buffs... but where druids get teleports, we get
>stat buffs. Doesn't that seem a bit, well, lame?
>
>Actually, I shouldn't say that. We get THREE bind sight spells, more than
any
>other class. Rock on!
>
Alasdair Allan
> In article <01bf53a1$88a94d20$cf81dec2@x-static>, Alasdair Allan wrote:
> >The only stat that will give a noticeable effect is Dex and even then in
> >only a few situations, i. for Chanelling - but then the only caster
likely
> >to be in combat and therefore relying on chanelling is the Shaman, ii.
for
> >Weapon Procs - even here you need *massive* amounts of Dex to get a
> >worthwhile effect.
>
>
> Dex does not in any way affect your ability to channel.
>
> That myth was dispelled some time ago by GZ.
GZ and Brad McQuaid have consistently given false information on the way
the game works. According to GZ, stat buffing is important to a tank.
JubJub McRae
>I'm not saying that Mages are God's because one got to level 50 before
>anyone else but it seems like those pets seem to do their job. Smirky
>and a lot of other level 50's seem able to make their pets walk the
>walk and talk the talk.
You know these examples of first L50's are pretty much meaningless.
One of the first L50's in retail was a rogue...
>Then again I have never played a Mage so I could easily be wrong.
Try it.
dstep
wrote:
Shaman gets many good spells that are not buffs that no one
else gets or they get them VERY late.
>Sam Schlansky wrote in message <8EAD1EC68vi...@207.126.101.100>...
>>mrju...@REMOVETHISPART.hotmail.com (JubJub McRae) wrote in
>><386d43f0...@news.ne.mediaone.net>:
>>
>>>If stats truly border on meaningless, why are there entire spell
>>>lines devoted to buffing them?
>>
>>Why are there there whole spell lines like Yaulp, Frenzy, Sense Magic,
>disease
>>debuffs, druid pet buffs (when they can only charm to get pets), magician
>>summoning useless weapons, ensnare (not snare, ensnare), abolish
>poison/disease
>>(when counteract removes EVERY poison/disease in the game with one shot),
>>banshee aura (necro self-only damage shield), bind sight, glimpse....
>>
>>There are hundreds of useless spells in Everquest. You're asking the wrong
>>question, JubJub.
>>
>>The RIGHT question is: "Why is an entire class based upon useless stat
>buffs?"
I don't think stat buffs are useless, it is pure conjecture based upon
a non scientific way of seeing if they are. I've been buffed at level
one before and it makes a VERY noticeble difference in how i hit.
The higher you get the less of a difference it will make.
>>Every casting class has something it does best or unique...
>>
>>Cleric: best heals, ressurect
>>Druid: damage shields, teleports, pack chloroplast
Druid get chloroplast late though, even regular chloroplast.
SHaman gets it at 34 or 39 I think and they get regen much earlier
than a druid.
>>Enchanter: crowd control, clarity, charm
>>Magician: pets, summoning items, damage shields
>>Necromancer: pets, DoT's
>>Wizard: best DD, teleports
>>
>>then:
>>
>>Shaman: Umm.... pets? No... shaman pets suck. DoT's? Maybe at 50, but
>before
>>then, not really... Stat buffs? Useless.
SHaman pets are one of the best in the game before 50, far better than
a magicians, mostly due to the fact that the shamans pet is often not
a tank, it is a pet that when you first get it is around level 25 or
so and hits for okay damage like 20 something. Not a bad pet
at level 34. Ive seen a level 34 shaman and a buffed pet with
quickness on it make short work of something outside that without
the pet the shaman would have a lot of trouble with. My friend
shaman got the pet and could solo and sg a couple levels later.
Lots of classes can never solo an sg, using only the spells that
they have and getting no outside help or item help ( remember
jboots are pretty much gone now.)
>>So what does the shaman do best? Sure, shamen are a balanced class, no
>doubt
>>about it, even without stat buffs... but where druids get teleports, we get
>>stat buffs. Doesn't that seem a bit, well, lame?
I've played both and shaman is just far more of a group character
indoors. Quicken on a couple tanks is amazing. My shaman was
taking pretty hard stuff with just her, and a paladin and warrior
around her level. She just quickened them and poisoned the thing
and they tore it up. Yeah druid has good damage shield but several
tanks quickened might be perferable. Shaman is a great aid to any
group, and my shaman grouped really well with a druid and a couple
tanks too that was one of the best combos i've seen - you really need
no other classes except maybe an enchanter if mezzing might be needed.
>>Actually, I shouldn't say that. We get THREE bind sight spells, more than
>any
>>other class. Rock on!
>>
>>Sam
They are still one of the best classes, and once they get the pet
they can get fast xp outside solo.
I only gave my shaman up because I got tired of EQ, and being a druid
is more fun because of teleporting. Call me lazy but someone inmy
guild says we are grouping up in cazic and I pop up in feeroot,
convenient. Or if doing quests, which I like to do, the druid is more
handy.
D
JubJub McRae
shaman's favor. Not that I don't like seeing my class praised, but
some points, like the MULTIPLE dots of the necro, including an 800
point hp transfer dot and the like, the mana regeneration ability of
necromancers (via allure of death line), and absurd mana efficiency.
JubJub McRae
ends in the same thing. Both are DAMN good classes (with the
exception of the dagger bug which IS unbalancing) and along with
enchanter, are the designers should REALLY look at as quality goals
for tuning the other classes.
Unlike so many classes, life for the big three doesn't end in the 30's
- there's something to look forward to with the next level or circle
of spells right up to the end, 49-50. Necromancers sole downside is
that they are underappreciated by groups - they add a lot to them, but
it's hard to notice (dots can be group effective, but you don't notice
all that damage at once like with a good, mana inefficient burn.
Likewise with pets).
danstrad
Quantum Mechanic wrote in message
<8qrp6s4ttjjadgfuo...@4ax.com>...
<snip>
>As far as the icing thing,, it's not like all a Necro can do is summon
>pets and DoT. They have their fair share of utility spells also.
<snip>
>>The Shaman is one of the "three gods" at 50.
>
>I believe our God status (if we are Gods) was partially due to the
>misconception most people had/have concerning the usefulness of our
>stat buffs..
Alright lets compare the necro (who is apparently the God class of the
moment) to the Shaman. Let me know if i miss anything, although the Shaman
seems to come out pretty damn favorably, stat buffs or no.
Necro
Excellent pet
Low AC/HP
Non-existent melee ability
Good self-healing (LifeTap)
Mediocre general healing (Pact of Shadow)
Second-best DoTers (Ignite Blood, Best DoT much slower than Shaman)
Good ability to exchange life for mana (Lich)
Excellent death-prevention spells (Harmshield, Feign Death, Gate)
Decent DD (Ignite Bones, 500 dmg 210 mana- highly resisted and fire based, +
Banish Undead line)
Fear Line allows reverse-kiting tactics.
Screaming Terror is a weak mes spell this week. (makes fighting multiples a
little easier and can be of benefit to a group with no enchanter)
Shaman
Decent pet
Decent AC/HP
Mediocre melee ability
Average-good healing (GHeal, Chloroplast)
Excellent debuffs (Togor's, Malosi)
Best DoTers (Envenomed Bolt, cast it 2 times easily in the duration of one
Ignite Blood)
Good combat buffs (Alacrity etc.)
Stat buffs of questionable value.
Mediocre DD (Blizzard Blast, 425 dmg 200 mana cold based)
SoW (excellent for travel, allows kiting and escape in outdoor zones)
Decent ability to exchange life for mana (Cannibalize)
<snip>
danstrad
JubJub McRae wrote in message <386f26cf...@news.ne.mediaone.net>...
>Your little point by point comparison is rather weighted in the
>shaman's favor. Not that I don't like seeing my class praised, but
>some points, like the MULTIPLE dots of the necro,
Yes which are rather useless when a shaman can cast envenomed bolt multiple
times within the duration of the necros DoTs and therefore do more damage
than Ignite Blood and Bond of Death combined, not to mention only having to
use one spell slot.
>including an 800
>point hp transfer dot and the like,
Yep that would be the good self healing.
>the mana regeneration ability of
>necromancers (via allure of death line),
I did mention that- 'Good ability to exchange life for mana (Lich)'
> and absurd mana efficiency.
Alright then add 'Mana efficient' to the necro list, I did ask for feedback.
Quantum Mechanic
wrote:
>Shamans like they say arent the best at jack. But there good at alot of
>things. They can take most rolls in a group.. and i love being a casting
>Troll damnit..
>
>
>Trest
>
We are supposed to be the best at Dex / Str / Agi buffs but it turns
out ( I have preached this since the game started) that those stats
don't do jack.. So the thing we are best at is useless,, I think his
post is valid.
Quantum Mechanic
Quantum Mechanic
wrote:
>
>Alright lets compare the necro (who is apparently the God class of the
>moment)
That was uncalled for, I never said that , I just said Necro pets
rule.
> to the Shaman. Let me know if i miss anything, although the Shaman
>seems to come out pretty damn favorably, stat buffs or no.
Ok , please know that I am not arguing with you on this , you may very
well be right. I am curious.
>
>
>Necro
>
>Excellent pet
It kicks the shit out of a level 50 warrior in fear gear... Excellent
isn't the word for it,, GOD pet ... :) really am I wrong on this ?
BTW, I do not think Necro/ Mage pets should be nerfed, Necro's need
killer pets. I think Melee classes need enhanced, drastically.
>Low AC/HP
What caster really cares about AC/HP at 50 and do you really have
noticeably less than a Shaman ?
>Non-existent melee ability
Again, Irrelevant at 50.
>Good self-healing (LifeTap)
And a 800 point Life tap type Dot that costs less manna than it would
take a Shaman to just heal 800 points much less do 800 damage.
>Mediocre general healing (Pact of Shadow)
Stack it and combine it with the DoT above and it isn't so Mediocre
(or has Verant got around to fixing that ?)
>Second-best DoTers (Ignite Blood, Best DoT much slower than Shaman)
Probably,, not sure what DoT's a Necro can stack.
>Good ability to exchange life for mana (Lich)
These two are hard to compare,, Necro has to med to do it (or do they
?) and Shaman can't med while doing it ,,, not sure who has the better
deal on this.
>Excellent death-prevention spells (Harmshield, Feign Death, Gate)
We have nothing like that except Gate.
>Decent DD (Ignite Bones, 500 dmg 210 mana- highly resisted and fire based, +
Better manna to damage ratio than Shaman AND it slows the mob down.
>Banish Undead line)
>Fear Line allows reverse-kiting tactics.
Not as good as Shaman's SoW kiting (at first due to resist can = dead)
but then Necro can Get SoW boots, Shaman can't get Fear Boots.
And don't forget the Darkness DoTs that Damage AND have a Snare type
effect. Awesome kite spell combined with or without the Fear spells
and again , no Darkness/Snare boots for Shaman.
Shaman can Togor's to "reduce" damage mob does to our "decent" pet
while Necro can Fear mob so it does "No Damage" to their God like pet
as the pet runs along hitting the Mob in the back.
>Screaming Terror is a weak mes spell this week. (makes fighting multiples a
>little easier and can be of benefit to a group with no enchanter)
Almost every spell I have falls under that category (can be of benefit
to a group with no enchanter) except I have no Mez of any kind.
>
>Shaman
>
>Decent pet
In a game were it takes a group to bring down a blue mob , Decent , is
next to useless at level 50 , sort of like melee skill mentioned
below.
>Decent AC/HP
My AC (level 50 Troll Shaman) is 672 . My hit points un buffed are
1065.
I can get 1300 hp max with my own buffs. Ac I can buff an amazing 27
or something like that (never cast that spell).
What are yours at level 50 ?
>Mediocre melee ability
Isn't melee is irrelevant ?. For me the general idea is to stay out of
melee range of the Mobs since they have been attacking for 100-250+
damage a round for the last 10 levels.
>Average-good healing (GHeal, Chloroplast)
I personally hate being the healer in a group, healing is a full time
job in a group, if I wanted to be a healer I would have played a
cleric.
As far as self healing goes, I can not in my wildest dreams heal 800
points of damage and do 800 points of damage to a mob without having
to re target. The re target part is very important, if you have ever
played a healing class then you know healing yourself is a losing
tactic since you have to stop doing damage while still taking damage
in order to heal yourself. At best you usually break even by the time
you get a heal off the mob has taken you back to were you was and you
haven't done a single point of damage to him. Life tap effect spells
are awesome.
Also healing only 300 points of damage costs me 150 manna. To heal
800 points of damage would cost me roughly 400 manna (if I could split
a G-heal) and I do no damage to the Mob.
You can heal '800' points of damage for less manna than I can (Bond of
Death) and do 800 points of damage to the Mob at the same time with
that same 360 manna. Excuse me if I *boggle* just a bit here.
I am really not trying to be a smart ass on this,, I honestly do not
see the comparison as to who can heal/damage the most.
>Excellent debuffs (Togor's, Malosi)
Togor's is a cool spell, you got me there. However it's use is very
limited (pointless to dump 170 manna just to slow down a mob that
isn't going to live more than 15 seconds) . The only mobs I have
really ever thought "OMG Togor's is gonna make big difference" I
usually can't get Togor's to stick "Efritee come to mind as I have
never got a single Togor's on a Efritee". Togor's is my second most
resisted spell. My most resisted spell is of course Malosi.
Malosi is next to useless, anything that doesn't resist Malosi
probably didn't need Malosi cast on it. I almost never even bother to
mem this spell due to nearly tapping myself over and over trying to
get it to stick. Even after it sticks I still get resisted so it is
much more manna effective to just cast whatever spell a couple times.
>Best DoTers (Envenomed Bolt, cast it 2 times easily in the duration of one
>Ignite Blood)
I can out DoT you maybe, (not sure but I believe I can by a good deal)
but then in a group most creatures hardly live long enough to for me
to even cast a DoT. No Mob ever lives long enough for me to even waste
manna with a DoT"even Fire Giants fall to fast to make DoT's
practical". DD is were it is,, DoT's are for Kiting or blaster less
groups..That has been my experience so far anyway.
>Good combat buffs (Alacrity etc.)
That is the realm of the enchanter, Alacrity is about the equal to a
haste sash (maybe a little better) . At level 50, 99.99% of the tanks
you will ever group with has a sash rendering Alacrity's use
questionable.
>Stat buffs of questionable value.
There is no question on this one and this is one point I "know" . Stat
buffs do next to nothing and they are what my class "Specialize" in.
>Mediocre DD (Blizzard Blast, 425 dmg 200 mana cold based)
Mediocre ? The worst DD in the game isn't it ? or do enchanters
actually have one that does less damage for more manna ? And I
haven't looked at the exact cast time on this spell but it is Slow...
very slow. I can not say my DD is more or less resisted than yours
however since I have no idea how much yours is resisted. It is not
uncommon to cast Blizzard and only do 10 points of damage .
>SoW (excellent for travel, allows kiting and escape in outdoor zones)
J-Boots (can cast SoW while running and can't be interrupted)
>Decent ability to exchange life for mana (Cannibalize)
This we do have, 2:1 ratio isn't bad and I believe only Shaman and
Necro have a life to manna option . Add the Enchanter's clarity and
the Druids Group Cloroplast and we are mean green manna machines. The
only problem is I now have more manna than anyone and nothing to cast
except worthless stat buffs.
But all that aside, I played a Shaman because I was under the
impression they were most versatile and Group friendly class in the
game. I didn't want to Kite, I didn't want to Solo , I wanted to be
the group buffer, the guy that made the tanks awesome. Turns out I
should have played an Enchanter or a Druid as both are more versatile
efficient than Shamans IMHO.
Quantum Mechanic.
Quantum Mechanic
>On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:04:39 -0500, "Trest" <sco...@peganet.com>
>wrote:
>
>Shaman gets many good spells that are not buffs that no one
>else gets or they get them VERY late.
>
Being a level 50 Shaman and having every Shaman spell in the game (or
I think I do). I have to ask what are the"many good spells that are
not buffs that no one else gets or they get them very late" ?
Quantum Mechanic
Alasdair Allan
> JubJub McRae wrote in message <386f26cf...@news.ne.mediaone.net>...
> >Your little point by point comparison is rather weighted in the
> >shaman's favor. Not that I don't like seeing my class praised, but
> >some points, like the MULTIPLE dots of the necro,
>
> Yes which are rather useless when a shaman can cast envenomed bolt
multiple
> times within the duration of the necros DoTs and therefore do more damage
> than Ignite Blood and Bond of Death combined, not to mention only having
to
> use one spell slot.
The Shaman can cast 5 to 6 times depending on mana (although they would
overlap a couple of Plagues in there. But with Togor (required due to much
much weaker pet) and all those roots the effective poison casts is 1
Disease and 2 Envenomed Bolts.
> >including an 800
> >point hp transfer dot and the like,
>
> Yep that would be the good self healing.
>
> >the mana regeneration ability of
> >necromancers (via allure of death line),
>
> I did mention that- 'Good ability to exchange life for mana (Lich)'
>
> > and absurd mana efficiency.
>
> Alright then add 'Mana efficient' to the necro list, I did ask for
feedback.
No its more than that. Its damn near infinite mana (not quite but pretty
damn close). That and the incredibly powerful pet give the Necro the edge.
Sure they are all "samey" in that Necro soloing tactics are pretty
singular compared to the Shaman who has a lot of choices but they have an
extra 3 or 4 levels (of mob opponent) in soloability.
Alasdair Allan
> On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 20:52:21 GMT, mrju...@REMOVETHISPART.hotmail.com
> (JubJub McRae) wrote:
> >Not at all - pet does fine, fills its role marvelously.. I have a
> >magician and shaman, both 35th level. The magician's water pet could
> >tear the shaman's up, but know what - the shaman's pet does it's job,
> >we don't need it, but it makes us a better class. The magician's pet
> >doesn't do that job. They NEED the pet, and even with the pet, it's
> >not strong enough to make them a complete class. Relying on DD is a
> >class flaw in EQ.
>
> The first level 50 on Tribunal was a Mage (GM broadcast it across the
> server when Smirky made 50) . Over the next week or so the majority of
> /who 50 was Necro, Druid and Mage and 1 Enchanter for a long time.
> I was the first level 50 Shaman on Tribunal (Troll) with another just
> a little bit behind me (Barbarian) and the next closest Shaman after
> him was level 42 . Now it was almost 2 months after the mage made
> level 50 before the first Shaman did. By the time we reached 50
> there were more level 50 mages, Necro's and Druids then you could
> shake a stick at . The only other two classes that had no level 50's
> (and still don't to my knowledge) was Rogue and Shadowknight...
Most players simply don't know about the abilities of the Shaman.
Including most Shaman! The majority of level 50 Shamans I know couldn't do
half the shit I do because they simply aren't tuned to fight - they sit and
buff and heal and burden their group.
Even the hardcore powergamers I work with are always astounded at what I
can do that they don't expect. Always.
Alasdair Allan
> >reducing mob damage. Pets are icing.
>
> Low taunt my hairy troll butt.. Envenomed Bolt is insta taunt even
> when it is resisted.
Dunno about you but I root and nuke. Often a Root will let me do both
Plague and Envenomed Bolt and still hold. Other times it will break every
time but its still gonna reduce the insta-taunt by at least 50%. Thats
pretty damn sweet.
Any caster who is firing high damage nukes/DoTs without rooting first is
asking for trouble (save Magician who should be looking for "feet sink into
the ground" before DD). After the DoT hits the taunt value is gone soon
after if the root holds.
> How are we the master at reducing mob damage ? I think Enchanter is
> the master, lord and God of reducing mob damage. Not only can they
> slow attack speed as well (some say better) than shaman but six mobs
> standing around mezzed deal 0 damage ...
Shiftless Deeds is a 95% increase in delay. Togor's Insects is a 110%
increase.
> >There is someone on this board that says "I only care about power at 50
> >nothing else matters". Can't recall who off hand.
> >
> >The Shaman is one of the "three gods" at 50.
>
> I believe our God status (if we are Gods) was partially due to the
> misconception most people had/have concerning the usefulness of our
> stat buffs..
Only in the minds of fools.
> >who wouldn't trade the
> >ability to solo level 50 mobs for the ability to still be able to down
> >level 45 mobs (more than any other class) *and* teleports.
> >
>
> Lost me. Shaman can Solo lvl 50 mobs and Necros can't ?
No Necro's can. But if Shamans could solo level 45 (I now consider it
level 46) mobs and have teleports who wouldn't choose that over the "able
to solo a 50 mob" Necro?
> >Hey, Vision is fun. Rage is fun. If there were no fun spells, then
fuck
> >all the power in the world. Fuck it right in the head. Fun matters,
this
> >is an entertainment.
>
>
> Shrink is fun but what is so fun about Vision or Rage ?
Lesse, Vision lets me view a battle from a rather unusual perspective, I
like shit like that, but maybe its just me.
Rage lets me beat a 48 Warrior in a melee only duel without having my best
weapon. I like that shit. A lot.
Olaf
worth a class being based on, and I would agree with you. Shamans are still
a nice class though, and they solo really, really well.
olaf
Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote in message
news:6d947so5j1rnd5tro...@4ax.com...
Sam Schlansky
<6d947so5j1rnd5tro...@4ax.com>:
>On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:04:39 -0500, "Trest" <sco...@peganet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Shamans like they say arent the best at jack. But there good at
>>alot of things. They can take most rolls in a group.. and i love
>>being a casting Troll damnit..
>>
>>
>
>We are supposed to be the best at Dex / Str / Agi buffs but it
>turns out ( I have preached this since the game started) that
>those stats don't do jack.. So the thing we are best at is
>useless,, I think his post is valid.
Yeah, thats exactly my point. I'm not saying that the shaman class
sucks... we're very versatile and quite powerful at high level.
It's just that, like you say, "the thing we're best at is useless".
I'd trade every stat buff we get for snare.
Quantum Mechanic
>All of those stats DO something. You can argue whether or not the buffs are
>worth a class being based on, and I would agree with you. Shamans are still
>a nice class though, and they solo really, really well.
>
>olaf
>
Solo solo solo,,, If I wanted to solo I would have played a Necro or
Druid... I didn't want to solo, Shaman were supposed to be "Buffer
Extraordinar" and they aren't... so it sucks .. I have a 1/2 breed
necromance'n , druid'n enchanter that rocks solo... pfhht..
>Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote in message
>news:6d947so5j1rnd5tro...@4ax.com...
>
>>
>> We are supposed to be the best at Dex / Str / Agi buffs but it turns
>> out ( I have preached this since the game started) that those stats
>> don't do jack.. So the thing we are best at is useless,, I think his
>> post is valid.
>>
>> Quantum Mechanic
>>
>>
>
Quantum Mechanic
<postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote
>> On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:44:19 GMT, "Alasdair Allan"
>> <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >- and this damage is low taunt in nature plus Shamans are the master at
>> >reducing mob damage. Pets are icing.
>>
>> Low taunt my hairy troll butt.. Envenomed Bolt is insta taunt even
>> when it is resisted.
>
>Dunno about you but I root and nuke. Often a Root will let me do both
>Plague and Envenomed Bolt and still hold. Other times it will break every
>time but its still gonna reduce the insta-taunt by at least 50%. Thats
>pretty damn sweet.
Oh man,, you don't root "NOTHING" it breaks snare.. Breaking snare is
a bad thing..
And if you are talking about solo then of course you root (and
worrying about taunt is pointless solo ,, who else is the Mob going to
attack ?) . And since you root the pet is useless , it's like a dot
you have to heal.
What level are you ? do you have any idea how fast a blue Mob Eats a
level 49 Shaman pet up ? (even with Togor's , a mob that is double
attacking for 100+ damage and kicking for almost that much eats a 49
shaman pet up in less time then your 45 second dot takes to run out)
>
>Any caster who is firing high damage nukes/DoTs without rooting first is
>asking for trouble (save Magician who should be looking for "feet sink into
>the ground" before DD). After the DoT hits the taunt value is gone soon
>after if the root holds.
Your talking solo, I could really care less about solo I didn't play a
Shaman (the supposed GROUP buffer extortioner) so I could solo.
Had I wanted to solo I would have played a Druid or Necro but I didn't
so I played a Shaman.
And besides that I don't know exactly what you are supposed to hunt
down and solo at level 50. Maybe the occasional blue Spectre or Furies
or some Guards. And when you find one it is way easier to kill
without having to heal and manage a pet. Solo'n at 50 ,, just the
idea of it depresses me.
>
>> How are we the master at reducing mob damage ? I think Enchanter is
>> the master, lord and God of reducing mob damage. Not only can they
>> slow attack speed as well (some say better) than shaman but six mobs
>> standing around mezzed deal 0 damage ...
>
>Shiftless Deeds is a 95% increase in delay. Togor's Insects is a 110%
>increase.
>
Ok,, They have AE mez and their speed debuff is a whole 15% slower
than Shaman's.. That still makes Enchanter the king of reducing mob
damage.
And if you are talking solo again then I think Necro takes the prize
since a Necro pet chasing a Feared Mob around hitting him in the back
takes no damage at all.
>> >There is someone on this board that says "I only care about power at 50
>> >nothing else matters". Can't recall who off hand.
>> >
>> >The Shaman is one of the "three gods" at 50. >>
>> I believe our God status (if we are Gods) was partially due to the
>> misconception most people had/have concerning the usefulness of our
>> stat buffs..
>
>Only in the minds of fools.
>
>> >who wouldn't trade the
>> >ability to solo level 50 mobs for the ability to still be able to down
>> >level 45 mobs (more than any other class) *and* teleports.
>> >
>>
>> Lost me. Shaman can Solo lvl 50 mobs and Necros can't ?
>
>No Necro's can. But if Shamans could solo level 45 (I now consider it
>level 46) mobs and have teleports who wouldn't choose that over the "able
>to solo a 50 mob" Necro?
>
Hmm, dunno,, Druid can solo anything I can and they have teleports..
but again I don't care about soloing (were do you find a level 50 mob
out in the open to solo ?) Priest of Discord is the only Mob I can
come up with off the top of my head that is level 50 and you might get
him alone to solo... heh, aint no necro or anyone else gonna Solo that
bad boy.. (hits harder than Nag , 325 damage from one wac of his
staff)
>> >Hey, Vision is fun. Rage is fun. If there were no fun spells, then
>fuck
>> >all the power in the world. Fuck it right in the head. Fun matters,
>this
>> >is an entertainment.
>>
>>
>> Shrink is fun but what is so fun about Vision or Rage ?
>
>Lesse, Vision lets me view a battle from a rather unusual perspective, I
>like shit like that, but maybe its just me.
Yeah, once it may be amusing...
>
>Rage lets me beat a 48 Warrior in a melee only duel without having my best
>weapon. I like that shit. A lot.
Umm, was he naked and using a rusty dagger ? Or what exactly is your
"best" weapon ? Considering a Warrior duel wielding Ykesha's can deal
a pretty respectable amount of damage I find that just a tad hard to
believe...
Quantum Mechanic
Quantum Mechanic
<postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote
>> On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 20:52:21 GMT, mrju...@REMOVETHISPART.hotmail.com
>> (JubJub McRae) wrote:
>> >Not at all - pet does fine, fills its role marvelously.. I have a
>> >magician and shaman, both 35th level. The magician's water pet could
>> >tear the shaman's up, but know what - the shaman's pet does it's job,
>> >we don't need it, but it makes us a better class. The magician's pet
>> >doesn't do that job. They NEED the pet, and even with the pet, it's
>> >not strong enough to make them a complete class. Relying on DD is a
>> >class flaw in EQ.
>>
>> The first level 50 on Tribunal was a Mage (GM broadcast it across the
>> server when Smirky made 50) . Over the next week or so the majority of
>> /who 50 was Necro, Druid and Mage and 1 Enchanter for a long time.
>> I was the first level 50 Shaman on Tribunal (Troll) with another just
>> a little bit behind me (Barbarian) and the next closest Shaman after
>> him was level 42 . Now it was almost 2 months after the mage made
>> level 50 before the first Shaman did. By the time we reached 50
>> there were more level 50 mages, Necro's and Druids then you could
>> shake a stick at . The only other two classes that had no level 50's
>> (and still don't to my knowledge) was Rogue and Shadowknight...
>
>Most players simply don't know about the abilities of the Shaman.
>Including most Shaman!
Enlighten me...
> The majority of level 50 Shamans I know couldn't do
>half the shit I do because they simply aren't tuned to fight - they sit and
>buff and heal and burden their group.
>
>Even the hardcore powergamers I work with are always astounded at what I
>can do that they don't expect. Always.
Well,,, at least you didn't use this as a opportunity to tell everyone
how awesome you are...
Can I assume you are a level 50 Shaman ? What server do you play on ?
Quantum Mechanic
danstrad
Quantum Mechanic wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 01:08:32 +1300, "danstrad" <dans...@ihug.co.nz>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Alright lets compare the necro (who is apparently the God class of the
>>moment)
>
>That was uncalled for, I never said that , I just said Necro pets
>rule.
Yeah I wasn't saying you did.. just the general impression i get from the
ng.
>> to the Shaman. Let me know if i miss anything, although the Shaman
>>seems to come out pretty damn favorably, stat buffs or no.
>
>Ok , please know that I am not arguing with you on this , you may very
>well be right. I am curious.
>
>
>>
>>
>>Necro
>>
>>Excellent pet
>
>It kicks the shit out of a level 50 warrior in fear gear... Excellent
>isn't the word for it,, GOD pet ... :) really am I wrong on this ?
>
>BTW, I do not think Necro/ Mage pets should be nerfed, Necro's need
>killer pets. I think Melee classes need enhanced, drastically.
>
>
>>Low AC/HP
>
>What caster really cares about AC/HP at 50 and do you really have
>noticeably less than a Shaman ?
>
>>Non-existent melee ability
>
>Again, Irrelevant at 50.
>
>>Good self-healing (LifeTap)
>
>And a 800 point Life tap type Dot that costs less manna than it would
>take a Shaman to just heal 800 points much less do 800 damage.
>
>>Mediocre general healing (Pact of Shadow)
>
>Stack it and combine it with the DoT above and it isn't so Mediocre
>(or has Verant got around to fixing that ?)
Yep it has a 12 second recast time now, you can only really have one pact up
at a time.
>>Second-best DoTers (Ignite Blood, Best DoT much slower than Shaman)
>
>Probably,, not sure what DoT's a Necro can stack.
>
>>Good ability to exchange life for mana (Lich)
>
>These two are hard to compare,, Necro has to med to do it (or do they
>?) and Shaman can't med while doing it ,,, not sure who has the better
>deal on this.
The necro mana diseases run constantly, you don't need to med to get the
benefit.
>>Excellent death-prevention spells (Harmshield, Feign Death, Gate)
>
>We have nothing like that except Gate.
>
>>Decent DD (Ignite Bones, 500 dmg 210 mana- highly resisted and fire based,
+
>
>Better manna to damage ratio than Shaman AND it slows the mob down.
It doesnt have the slow component anymore, plus its an all-or-nothing spell
because of the illusion: skele component.
>>Banish Undead line)
>>Fear Line allows reverse-kiting tactics.
>
>Not as good as Shaman's SoW kiting (at first due to resist can = dead)
>but then Necro can Get SoW boots, Shaman can't get Fear Boots.
>
>And don't forget the Darkness DoTs that Damage AND have a Snare type
>effect. Awesome kite spell combined with or without the Fear spells
>and again , no Darkness/Snare boots for Shaman.
Yeah whoops I forgot darkness.
>Shaman can Togor's to "reduce" damage mob does to our "decent" pet
>while Necro can Fear mob so it does "No Damage" to their God like pet
>as the pet runs along hitting the Mob in the back.
Fear is pretty limited in the situations you can use it, Togor's is not. You
can't fear in a dungeon or even in some outdoor zones (Rathe Mountains for
example) because of serious pathing problems that cause the mob to warp to a
safe spot.
>>Screaming Terror is a weak mes spell this week. (makes fighting multiples
a
>>little easier and can be of benefit to a group with no enchanter)
>
>Almost every spell I have falls under that category (can be of benefit
>to a group with no enchanter) except I have no Mez of any kind.
I'm not convinced it was a good idea changing it to it's current state.
>>
>>Shaman
>>
>>Decent pet
>
>In a game were it takes a group to bring down a blue mob , Decent , is
>next to useless at level 50 , sort of like melee skill mentioned
>below.
I think youre seriously undervaluing your pet, shaman pet vs. weaponless
necro pet, both buffed with alacrity (or necro pet with augment death),
shaman pet wins with 20-30% health left. If they take away the dagger
'exploit' as people like to call it, we're pretty screwed.
>>Decent AC/HP
>
>My AC (level 50 Troll Shaman) is 672 . My hit points un buffed are
>1065.
>I can get 1300 hp max with my own buffs. Ac I can buff an amazing 27
>or something like that (never cast that spell).
>
>What are yours at level 50 ?
>
>>Mediocre melee ability
>
>Isn't melee is irrelevant ?. For me the general idea is to stay out of
>melee range of the Mobs since they have been attacking for 100-250+
>damage a round for the last 10 levels.
Well Alasdair seems convinced its worthwhile for a shaman so i put it in.
>>Average-good healing (GHeal, Chloroplast)
>
>I personally hate being the healer in a group, healing is a full time
>job in a group, if I wanted to be a healer I would have played a
>cleric.
>
> As far as self healing goes, I can not in my wildest dreams heal 800
>points of damage and do 800 points of damage to a mob without having
>to re target. The re target part is very important, if you have ever
>played a healing class then you know healing yourself is a losing
>tactic since you have to stop doing damage while still taking damage
>in order to heal yourself. At best you usually break even by the time
>you get a heal off the mob has taken you back to were you was and you
>haven't done a single point of damage to him. Life tap effect spells
>are awesome.
>
> Also healing only 300 points of damage costs me 150 manna. To heal
>800 points of damage would cost me roughly 400 manna (if I could split
>a G-heal) and I do no damage to the Mob.
>
>You can heal '800' points of damage for less manna than I can (Bond of
>Death) and do 800 points of damage to the Mob at the same time with
>that same 360 manna. Excuse me if I *boggle* just a bit here.
>
>I am really not trying to be a smart ass on this,, I honestly do not
>see the comparison as to who can heal/damage the most.
Necros obviously are the best at healing/damage at the same time. I regard
Gheal as 'average' because it is the best healing spell that most classes
get. Chloroplast is a very useful source of healing in a group and will in
the long run beat the mana effiency of Bond of Death.
>>Excellent debuffs (Togor's, Malosi)
>
>Togor's is a cool spell, you got me there. However it's use is very
>limited (pointless to dump 170 manna just to slow down a mob that
>isn't going to live more than 15 seconds) . The only mobs I have
>really ever thought "OMG Togor's is gonna make big difference" I
>usually can't get Togor's to stick "Efritee come to mind as I have
>never got a single Togor's on a Efritee". Togor's is my second most
>resisted spell. My most resisted spell is of course Malosi.
>
>Malosi is next to useless, anything that doesn't resist Malosi
>probably didn't need Malosi cast on it. I almost never even bother to
>mem this spell due to nearly tapping myself over and over trying to
>get it to stick. Even after it sticks I still get resisted so it is
>much more manna effective to just cast whatever spell a couple times.
The main benefit of Malosi I think is to other casters in the group rather
than the shaman himself, but youre right its only necessary in specific
circumstances.
>
>>Best DoTers (Envenomed Bolt, cast it 2 times easily in the duration of one
>>Ignite Blood)
>
>I can out DoT you maybe, (not sure but I believe I can by a good deal)
>but then in a group most creatures hardly live long enough to for me
>to even cast a DoT. No Mob ever lives long enough for me to even waste
>manna with a DoT"even Fire Giants fall to fast to make DoT's
>practical". DD is were it is,, DoT's are for Kiting or blaster less
>groups..That has been my experience so far anyway.
Then you see why having quick-acting DoTs is critical. At least Envenomed
Bolt can do an appreciable percentage of its damage in an average fight,
Ignite Blood will have barely got started. And if the fight does last longer
than the duration, you can always Bolt again.
>>Good combat buffs (Alacrity etc.)
>
>That is the realm of the enchanter, Alacrity is about the equal to a
>haste sash (maybe a little better) . At level 50, 99.99% of the tanks
>you will ever group with has a sash rendering Alacrity's use
>questionable.
I would still consider it good, if only for buffing yourself and any pets in
the group.
>>Stat buffs of questionable value.
>
>There is no question on this one and this is one point I "know" . Stat
>buffs do next to nothing and they are what my class "Specialize" in.
>
>>Mediocre DD (Blizzard Blast, 425 dmg 200 mana cold based)
>
>Mediocre ? The worst DD in the game isn't it ? or do enchanters
>actually have one that does less damage for more manna ? And I
>haven't looked at the exact cast time on this spell but it is Slow...
>very slow. I can not say my DD is more or less resisted than yours
>however since I have no idea how much yours is resisted. It is not
>uncommon to cast Blizzard and only do 10 points of damage .
Unfortunately Ignite Bones will never do 10, it will do zero instead.
>>SoW (excellent for travel, allows kiting and escape in outdoor zones)
>
>J-Boots (can cast SoW while running and can't be interrupted)
A pain to get now though it must be said.
>
>>Decent ability to exchange life for mana (Cannibalize)
>
>This we do have, 2:1 ratio isn't bad and I believe only Shaman and
>Necro have a life to manna option . Add the Enchanter's clarity and
>the Druids Group Cloroplast and we are mean green manna machines. The
>only problem is I now have more manna than anyone and nothing to cast
>except worthless stat buffs.
You can stack cannibalize with clarity? That is pretty cool, the Lich line
will cancel clarity when used. If you have a means of regenerating mana
faster it means you can contribute more of the total healing/damage needed
and reduce downtime.
Alasdair Allan
> On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 17:53:45 GMT, "Alasdair Allan"
> <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Dunno about you but I root and nuke. Often a Root will let me do both
> >Plague and Envenomed Bolt and still hold. Other times it will break
every
> >time but its still gonna reduce the insta-taunt by at least 50%. Thats
> >pretty damn sweet.
>
> Oh man,, you don't root "NOTHING" it breaks snare.. Breaking snare is
> a bad thing..
I don't often waste a group slot on a Druid and I prefer other tanks to
Rangers. So snare isn't important to me. Even then I still prefer Root to
Snare. Always.
> And if you are talking about solo then of course you root (and
> worrying about taunt is pointless solo ,, who else is the Mob going to
> attack ?) . And since you root the pet is useless , it's like a dot
> you have to heal.
>
> What level are you ? do you have any idea how fast a blue Mob Eats a
> level 49 Shaman pet up ? (even with Togor's , a mob that is double
> attacking for 100+ damage and kicking for almost that much eats a 49
> shaman pet up in less time then your 45 second dot takes to run out)
With Chloroplast and Talisman of Altuna my pet can tank Ice Giants for
ages. A good 2 to 3 minutes, long enough for Plague and Envenomed Bolt to
do their work. If need be, of course I can share damage with my pet.
I have no problem with a pair of Lava Beetles or a couple of Sonic Bats,
either. Pets are great. Togor is brilliant.
> >Any caster who is firing high damage nukes/DoTs without rooting first is
> >asking for trouble (save Magician who should be looking for "feet sink
into
> >the ground" before DD). After the DoT hits the taunt value is gone soon
> >after if the root holds.
>
> Your talking solo, I could really care less about solo I didn't play a
> Shaman (the supposed GROUP buffer extortioner) so I could solo.
> Had I wanted to solo I would have played a Druid or Necro but I didn't
> so I played a Shaman.
Then you picked the wrong class. Stat buffs don't do anything, in the
words of Geoffrey Zatkin, the Shaman is a class that casts well and can
still be effective in melée.
> And besides that I don't know exactly what you are supposed to hunt
> down and solo at level 50. Maybe the occasional blue Spectre or Furies
> or some Guards. And when you find one it is way easier to kill
> without having to heal and manage a pet. Solo'n at 50 ,, just the
> idea of it depresses me.
Take your pick. Bugs in Sol B are fun, Ice Giants, whatever you want.
Shamans can solo a level 46 mob.
> >Shiftless Deeds is a 95% increase in delay. Togor's Insects is a 110%
> >increase.
>
> Ok,, They have AE mez and their speed debuff is a whole 15% slower
> than Shaman's.. That still makes Enchanter the king of reducing mob
> damage.
And the Shaman/Enchanter axis unstoppable.
> And if you are talking solo again then I think Necro takes the prize
> since a Necro pet chasing a Feared Mob around hitting him in the back
> takes no damage at all.
Yes thanks to the pet dagger exploit. Something that few people think will
survive much into the new year.
> >No Necro's can. But if Shamans could solo level 45 (I now consider it
> >level 46) mobs and have teleports who wouldn't choose that over the
"able
> >to solo a 50 mob" Necro?
> >
>
> Hmm, dunno,, Druid can solo anything I can and they have teleports..
> but again I don't care about soloing (were do you find a level 50 mob
> out in the open to solo ?) Priest of Discord is the only Mob I can
> come up with off the top of my head that is level 50 and you might get
> him alone to solo... heh, aint no necro or anyone else gonna Solo that
> bad boy.. (hits harder than Nag , 325 damage from one wac of his
> staff)
Druid is pretty much topped out at soloing a level 43 mob (they will tend
to struggle against the top level Ice Giant - level 43) and even then its
*outdoor only* they can't fight nearly as high mobs in dungeons.
You can't be high level if you don't know what you can fight at 50 and beat
that is high experience and beatable.
> >Lesse, Vision lets me view a battle from a rather unusual perspective, I
> >like shit like that, but maybe its just me.
>
> Yeah, once it may be amusing...
>
> >
> >Rage lets me beat a 48 Warrior in a melee only duel without having my
best
> >weapon. I like that shit. A lot.
>
> Umm, was he naked and using a rusty dagger ? Or what exactly is your
> "best" weapon ? Considering a Warrior duel wielding Ykesha's can deal
> a pretty respectable amount of damage I find that just a tad hard to
> believe...
He had partial PoH armour and duel Ykeshas. I used Gatorsmash Maul and
Rage. The long delay on Gatorsmash and number of "you cannot see your
targets" as we danced makesw me believe the similar ratio but lower delay
Tainted Tier Dal Staff would be far better.
I also took a level 50 Warrior in full PoH gear and wielding duel Ykeshas
below half a bubb and took 50% of the health from a the best equipped level
50 Warrior on Tarwe Marr - he had Bladestorm and full PoH armour. I
believe I could get him much close as I work out the best weapon choice.
But then, as your clueless statements demonstrate you are the epytomy of
the clueless Shaman who doesn't know what they can do, the very thing I
despise, I doubt you would understandany of this.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
<postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|I don't often waste a group slot on a Druid and I prefer other tanks to
|Rangers. So snare isn't important to me. Even then I still prefer Root to
|Snare. Always.
Bwahahaaha.
|Then you picked the wrong class. Stat buffs don't do anything, in the
|words of Geoffrey Zatkin, the Shaman is a class that casts well and can
|still be effective in melée.
A Shaman is a caster that is just as overpowered as the rest and can wave
a weapon around like a silly girl.
|He had partial PoH armour and duel Ykeshas. I used Gatorsmash Maul and
|Rage. The long delay on Gatorsmash and number of "you cannot see your
|targets" as we danced makesw me believe the similar ratio but lower delay
|Tainted Tier Dal Staff would be far better.
If you were using a buff, then it wasn't a melee-only duel, was it now?
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"I guess my work 'round here has all been done."
-- The Devil, "The Garden of Allah", Don Henley
Joe
(JubJub McRae) wrote:
>If stats truly border on meaningless, why are there entire spell lines
>devoted to buffing them?
One stat is not meaningless in a big way. Strength. It does add
damage and make the average damage higher. Not as much as it should
in IMHO but it does. Dex means something if you are a proc freak. I
would rather give up the proc than to use a butt ugly Ykesha.
Wisdom and Intel make a difference due to a larger mana pool.
-Joe
Lyion
when an enchanter is in a group. The point made here was that there is
a lot of spell overlap.
I prefer grouping with friends, and think this useless drivel about 'my
class is god-class' is silly. No matter how you dice it, a Necro is 10
times more powerful than a Shaman. The Shaman Dog cannot compare with a
49 Nec pet with Fast weaps. All the 50 Necs I know look for Clerics,
Rangers, Druids, and Enchanters. Druids and Rangers mainly for Snare
and sometimes for track.
Any good group can do better than a soloer. Even a Nec. Those who are
polite, and not insulting to other classes tend to group more often.
Anyways, Snare is an unbelievably awesome spell, and if you don't want
it in your group it makes me wonder if you really play the game at
all....
Togors is also a great spell. Amazingly it works even better when you
have a tank or two with you doing good damage.
People who's main concern in the game is soloing and class power make
me wonder if they have some sort of major deficiency in their real
life....
All classes are fun, good, and can group well. Unfortunately, unlike
all classes, there are people who aren't fun and good.
I tend to group with people I enjoy playing with. I do not selectively
pick which 'classes' I want with me. Thats a pretty shallow deal.
In article <3872f9bf.60226283@news>, dfra...@email.com (Dennis Francis
Heffernan) wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 02:10:07 GMT, "Alasdair Allan"
> <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> |I don't often waste a group slot on a Druid and I prefer other
> tanks to
> |Rangers. So snare isn't important to me. Even then I still
> prefer Root to
> |Snare. Always.
> Bwahahaaha.
> |Then you picked the wrong class. Stat buffs don't do anything,
> in the
> |words of Geoffrey Zatkin, the Shaman is a class that casts well
> and can
> |still be effective in melée.
> A Shaman is a caster that is just as overpowered as the rest and
> can wave
> a weapon around like a silly girl.
> |He had partial PoH armour and duel Ykeshas. I used Gatorsmash
> Maul and
> |Rage. The long delay on Gatorsmash and number of "you cannot see
> your
> |targets" as we danced makesw me believe the similar ratio but
> lower delay
> |Tainted Tier Dal Staff would be far better.
> If you were using a buff, then it wasn't a melee-only duel, was
> it now?
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
Please watch your attributions; you are (seemingly) replying to Mr. Allan,
not me.
|Shaman are good in a group, but definitely lose some of their luster
|when an enchanter is in a group. The point made here was that there is
|a lot of spell overlap.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Sergey Dashevskiy
Uuh, from what I understand Alasdair meant that he didn't kite the
warrior. If he did, NO melee class would stand half a chance against any
decent caster like shaman, druid, enchanter, necro, or bard
Alasdair Allan
> > If you were using a buff, then it wasn't a melee-only duel, was it
now?
>
> Uuh, from what I understand Alasdair meant that he didn't kite the
> warrior. If he did, NO melee class would stand half a chance against any
> decent caster like shaman, druid, enchanter, necro, or bard
No, I meant during the combat *no spells* were used.
Quantum Mechanic
<postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote
----Snip----
>>
>> Oh man,, you don't root "NOTHING" it breaks snare.. Breaking snare is
>> a bad thing..
>
>I don't often waste a group slot on a Druid and I prefer other tanks to
>Rangers. So snare isn't important to me. Even then I still prefer Root to
>Snare. Always.
>
You go into Train central (aka dungeons) knowing that if a mob gets
away it's likely evac / die time and you prefer root to snare ??
Well, I'm not so arrogant as to claim I know everything or accuse you
of being stupid because you make a claim that seems ludicrous to me so
I'll just say *boggle* .
You still haven't said what server you play on and what the name of
your level 50 shaman is ...
>> What level are you ? do you have any idea how fast a blue Mob Eats a
>> level 49 Shaman pet up ? (even with Togor's , a mob that is double
>> attacking for 100+ damage and kicking for almost that much eats a 49
>> shaman pet up in less time then your 45 second dot takes to run out)
>
>With Chloroplast and Talisman of Altuna my pet can tank Ice Giants for
>ages. A good 2 to 3 minutes, long enough for Plague and Envenomed Bolt to
>do their work. If need be, of course I can share damage with my pet.
>
I know for a fact that Talisman don't add a single hit point to pets
and I'm far from convinced that Cloro does anything for them either.
As far as killing Ice Giants goes, I find it much easier to just dot
and root , root and dot. Having to cast heal on a pet and Togor's on
the Ice Giant is just that much more manna you have to burn and that
much more downtime medding it back. And if you take damage instead of
healing the pet your still wasting manna because hit points = manna
to a shaman.
>I have no problem with a pair of Lava Beetles or a couple of Sonic Bats,
>either. Pets are great. Togor is brilliant.
Togor's is awesome, but it is useless if there are blasters in the
group killing the stuff in 20 seconds . That also renders your DoT's
useless. And if your group also has a Enchanter you pretty much end up
playing cleric or casting useless buffs just to keep the natives happy
and make it look like you are contributing.
>> >Any caster who is firing high damage nukes/DoTs without rooting first is
>> >asking for trouble (save Magician who should be looking for "feet sink
>into
>> >the ground" before DD). After the DoT hits the taunt value is gone soon
>> >after if the root holds.
>>
>> Your talking solo, I could really care less about solo I didn't play a
>> Shaman (the supposed GROUP buffer extortioner) so I could solo.
>> Had I wanted to solo I would have played a Druid or Necro but I didn't
>> so I played a Shaman.
>
>Then you picked the wrong class. Stat buffs don't do anything, in the
>words of Geoffrey Zatkin, the Shaman is a class that casts well and can
>still be effective in melée.
No kidding,, that is kind'a the point I have been making.. I should
have played a damn Enchanter and would have had Verant been even a
little bit honest about how useless Dex/Agi/Str is. Now I have 50
levels invested in a character that doesn't perform as advertised.
----snip----
>And the Shaman/Enchanter axis unstoppable.
>
>> And if you are talking solo again then I think Necro takes the prize
>> since a Necro pet chasing a Feared Mob around hitting him in the back
>> takes no damage at all.
>
>Yes thanks to the pet dagger exploit. Something that few people think will
>survive much into the new year.
What ? What does the dagger exploit have to do with Fear making a mob
run while the pet stabs it in the back ? Mob isn't going to do damage
to the necro pet regardless of what kind of weapon the Necro pet is or
is not using.
>Druid is pretty much topped out at soloing a level 43 mob (they will tend
>to struggle against the top level Ice Giant - level 43) and even then its
>*outdoor only* they can't fight nearly as high mobs in dungeons.
>
>You can't be high level if you don't know what you can fight at 50 and beat
>that is high experience and beatable.
You said "Level 50" and I ask were the hell you find a level 50 you
can get alone to solo. Instead of giving me a answer you turned it
into some kind of BS about me not knowing what I can kill for exp.
There is nothing in LG that is level 50 (Guk wiz is highest level mob
in LG and he isn't level 50) .
Fire Giants in Sol B maybe ? Hmm, maybe a rare 50 and I haven't heard
of anyone solo'n a Fire Giant since I don't know when.
Hmm The Vox priest / Ice Giant in Perma is 50 , good luck solo'n him.
I haven't roamed around KK enough to know what level 50's may or may
not be there.
There are a few NPC vendors that are 49+ out were you can get to them
but their magic resist has so far prevented me from hitting them with
so much as a root.
So Now tell me were the hell you find these level 50 mobs that
Necro's or anyone else for that matter has a chance in hell of getting
to without a group and solo ?
---Snip---
>He had partial PoH armour and duel Ykeshas. I used Gatorsmash Maul and
>Rage. The long delay on Gatorsmash and number of "you cannot see your
>targets" as we danced makesw me believe the similar ratio but lower delay
>Tainted Tier Dal Staff would be far better.
>
>I also took a level 50 Warrior in full PoH gear and wielding duel Ykeshas
>below half a bubb and took 50% of the health from a the best equipped level
>50 Warrior on Tarwe Marr - he had Bladestorm and full PoH armour. I
>believe I could get him much close as I work out the best weapon choice.
>
>But then, as your clueless statements demonstrate you are the epytomy of
>the clueless Shaman who doesn't know what they can do, the very thing I
>despise, I doubt you would understandany of this.
Your right, I don't understand 1/2 of what you say and consider the
other 1/2 bullshit or seriously pre-nerf/pre-enhancement and outdated
to the point of being irrelevant dribble.
Quantum Mechanic
Quantum Mechanic
wrote:
>
>The main benefit of Malosi I think is to other casters in the group rather
>than the shaman himself, but youre right its only necessary in specific
>circumstances.
>
It is good for twinking newbie guild members.. maybe if you have a
enchanter in the group with you to cast their nearly unresistable
resist d-buff first but even then malosi gets resisted a lot.
--snip--
>>manna with a DoT"even Fire Giants fall to fast to make DoT's
>>practical". DD is were it is,, DoT's are for Kiting or blaster less
>>groups..That has been my experience so far anyway.
>
>
>Then you see why having quick-acting DoTs is critical. At least Envenomed
>Bolt can do an appreciable percentage of its damage in an average fight,
>Ignite Blood will have barely got started. And if the fight does last longer
>than the duration, you can always Bolt again.
If it takes the blasters 20 seconds to bring the mob down I would be
dumping 360 manna to do <600 points of damage.. not really practical.
Necro or Shaman, DoT's are really more geared for Solo'n or
blasterless groups. THey are more efficient than blasting but try to
get the blasters to stop blasting..
-snip-
>
>
>You can stack cannibalize with clarity? That is pretty cool, the Lich line
>will cancel clarity when used. If you have a means of regenerating mana
>faster it means you can contribute more of the total healing/damage needed
>and reduce downtime.
They don't really stack ,Cannibalize isn't a DoT type spell, it's more
like a DD spell. You cast it and it does X points of damage and gives
X/2 manna (0 casting cost) no effect icon. You just have to cast it
over and over, like clicking a manna stone but more efficient.
Quantum Mechanic.
Paul Phillips
I've got a level 18 shaman and I can tell you know the Shaman class
better than anyone else I've ever read. I've read one of your shaman
guides on one of the web sites. Do you have a list of your shaman guides
that are available? Can you send me the guides or a list of the url's
where they are posted? Thanks for your time.
Paul
Alasdair Allan wrote:
>
> No, I meant during the combat *no spells* were used.
>
> --
> Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
> x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
> X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
> http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
--
----------------------------
When I feel a bit naughty
I run it up the flagpole and see
who salutes (but no one ever does)!
-Harvey Danger "Flagpole Sitta"
----------------------------
http://www.scour.net
Quantum Mechanic
wrote:
>
>>>Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote
>
><snip>
>
>>So Now tell me were the hell you find these level 50 mobs that
>>Necro's or anyone else for that matter has a chance in hell of getting
>>to without a group and solo ?
>
>
>Allizewesaur (sp?) in OOT.
Allizewsaur is 51or 52 (never seen it con anything but yellow) . I did
not realize anyone had ever solo'd this.
(except Alasdair Allan of course, naked and melee with no buffs and a
level 34 pet at 1/2 life could solo it)
Quantum Mechanic
danstrad
>>Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote
<snip>
>So Now tell me were the hell you find these level 50 mobs that
>Necro's or anyone else for that matter has a chance in hell of getting
>to without a group and solo ?
Allizewesaur (sp?) in OOT.
<snip>
John Henders
>Allizewsaur is 51or 52 (never seen it con anything but yellow) . I did
>not realize anyone had ever solo'd this.
Weird. We killed him repeatedly 2 days in a row and he conned white to
our L50 cleric every time.
>(except Alasdair Allan of course, naked and melee with no buffs and a
>level 34 pet at 1/2 life could solo it)
I don't think Alasdair could take it. It has a massive amount of
hitpoints. The only class I've heard to manage it is a necro using fear
and dots.
--
Artificial Intelligence stands no chance against Natural Stupidity.
GAT d- -p+(--) c++++ l++ u++ t- m--- W--- !v
b+++ e* s-/+ n-(?) h++ f+g+ w+++ y*
Quantum Mechanic
>In <abs77sgs72ehj12a0...@4ax.com> Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> writes:
>
>>Allizewsaur is 51or 52 (never seen it con anything but yellow) . I did
>>not realize anyone had ever solo'd this.
>
>Weird. We killed him repeatedly 2 days in a row and he conned white to
>our L50 cleric every time.
That is odd. I went and ask some guild members what Allizewsaur cons
to them and none of them have ever seen it con anything but yellow
either.
I haven't had anything con white in so long I had assumed you didn't
get white cons after level X . I get two shades of green, blue ,
black, yellow and red.. Are con results effected by your class, race
or skill maybe ?
Quantum Mechanic
JackiePrice
exist...I forget the name of the weapon. I love it though...
"Joe" <Somewhe...@lonesome.com> wrote in message
news:38735a61...@news.supernews.com...
George Ruof
>I haven't had anything con white in so long I had assumed you didn't
>get white cons after level X . I get two shades of green, blue ,
>black, yellow and red.. Are con results effected by your class, race
>or skill maybe ?
You know Black and White cons are the same right? Black with the
interface up, and white in fullscreen mode.
--
George Ruof
gr...@pacificnet.net
Quantum Mechanic
wrote:
>Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote:
That explains it, I never play full screen. It does seem that I once
had white cons many levels ago.. maybe I was experimenting with full
screen at the time and just don't remember it.
Quantum Mechanic
John Henders
>That is odd. I went and ask some guild members what Allizewsaur cons
>to them and none of them have ever seen it con anything but yellow
>either.
I'll have to check it again. It was definately 50 when I played my old
char on my old server. Now my new char is 50 it's time to go kill it
again.
>I haven't had anything con white in so long I had assumed you didn't
>get white cons after level X . I get two shades of green, blue ,
>black, yellow and red.. Are con results effected by your class, race
>or skill maybe ?
Nope. Con isn't effected by class or anything other than your level, in
my exp. I've run across even cons deeper in Kedge, where a lot of mobs run
48-50+.
John Henders
>In <81697sc9j56qg1qn8...@4ax.com> Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> writes:
>>That is odd. I went and ask some guild members what Allizewsaur cons
>>to them and none of them have ever seen it con anything but yellow
>>either.
>I'll have to check it again. It was definately 50 when I played my old
>char on my old server. Now my new char is 50 it's time to go kill it
>again.
I just went out with an enchanter friend tonight and killed one, and
they are still an even con at 50.
Alasdair Allan
> I've got a level 18 shaman and I can tell you know the Shaman class
> better than anyone else I've ever read. I've read one of your shaman
> guides on one of the web sites. Do you have a list of your shaman guides
> that are available? Can you send me the guides or a list of the url's
> where they are posted? Thanks for your time.
All the guides bar mine are "taking a young Barbarian Shaman through level
9" and such absolute twaddle as "buy all the spells as soon as you can" -
like D'oh!
Honestly, the best thing you can do is get in there and *experiment*. Don;t
give a fuck if you die, you work out good tactics and strategy and you'll
make up for a 100 deaths testing things out.
I've died 4 times in the last couple of days. Every time it was
experimenting, pushing the envelope, trying to take on that mob one level
higher, or that one extra critter, or that new tactic, or new spell
incorporation. I don't mind, not one jot because with my skills that I
developed experimenting I can make a death back in well under an hour at
level 50. No problem and I'll have learned. And that makes me better.
I could take down a low blue in any one of a dozen differnt ways. I could
beat it to death without ever casting a spell on it, I could hit it with a
de-buff and let my dog kill it, I could root it and DoT it and watch it
wither, or root it and nuke it and kill it is seconds. I can mix these
tactics together and solo higher than (I would imagine) any other Shaman has
ever managed. Its about learning and taking chances to get to learn.
So get in there and learn as you go along, never worry about death (its
trivially non-painful) and never be afraid to take risks.
Alasdair Allan
> In <abs77sgs72ehj12a0...@4ax.com> Quantum Mechanic
<Dread...@AntiSocial.com> writes:
>
> >Allizewsaur is 51or 52 (never seen it con anything but yellow) . I did
> >not realize anyone had ever solo'd this.
>
> Weird. We killed him repeatedly 2 days in a row and he conned white to
> our L50 cleric every time.
Yeah, eh is always level 50. Quantum Mechanic just hasn't ever hit 50 to
/con it and find out.
> >(except Alasdair Allan of course, naked and melee with no buffs and a
> >level 34 pet at 1/2 life could solo it)
>
> I don't think Alasdair could take it. It has a massive amount of
> hitpoints. The only class I've heard to manage it is a necro using fear
> and dots.
Wasn't Fear and DoTs. Another trick with HP conversion from mob to pet.
Alasdair Allan
> Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote:
>
> >I haven't had anything con white in so long I had assumed you didn't
> >get white cons after level X . I get two shades of green, blue ,
> >black, yellow and red.. Are con results effected by your class, race
> >or skill maybe ?
>
> interface up, and white in fullscreen mode.
I am getting the impression that the we are debating with a newbie who
"thinks he knows" rather than actually knowin anything.
Alasdair Allan
> On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 02:10:07 GMT, "Alasdair Allan"
> <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >I don't often waste a group slot on a Druid and I prefer other tanks to
> >Rangers. So snare isn't important to me. Even then I still prefer Root
to
> >Snare. Always.
>
> You go into Train central (aka dungeons) knowing that if a mob gets
> away it's likely evac / die time and you prefer root to snare ??
Rooting, I never let them get away. Its a trivial job and i know what to
do.
> Well, I'm not so arrogant as to claim I know everything or accuse you
> of being stupid because you make a claim that seems ludicrous to me so
> I'll just say *boggle* .
Boggle on. Or perhaps go experiment and *learn*.
> You still haven't said what server you play on and what the name of
> your level 50 shaman is ...
Its been posted here enough times. Eduin Tu'Brutus on Tarew Marr. I would
imagine my reputation is rather "interesting" and certainly very mixed. But
then few people tell the head of the biggest Powergamer guild on the server
to "fuck off - I'm not casting pointless buffs on you".
> >With Chloroplast and Talisman of Altuna my pet can tank Ice Giants for
> >ages. A good 2 to 3 minutes, long enough for Plague and Envenomed Bolt
to
> >do their work. If need be, of course I can share damage with my pet.
>
> I know for a fact that Talisman don't add a single hit point to pets
> and I'm far from convinced that Cloro does anything for them either.
You can see in combat what happens with Chloroplast. Pet regen doesn't
happen when its fighting. So Chloro your pet, let it get bashed a bit then
step in and take all the damage. After 30 seconds to a minute check pet
health and it will have risen.
What "fact" leads you to believe Talisman doesn't add to pet HP? I don't
know a single Shaman who thinks it *doesn't*.
> As far as killing Ice Giants goes, I find it much easier to just dot
> and root , root and dot. Having to cast heal on a pet and Togor's on
> the Ice Giant is just that much more manna you have to burn and that
> much more downtime medding it back. And if you take damage instead of
> healing the pet your still wasting manna because hit points = manna
> to a shaman.
I finish an Ice Giant fight with 50% mana and 60% health (around 150 base
give or take depending what weapon I use and kit I wear). I bet you finish
with 90% health and 0% mana. Now, with Canibalize you can take 90 seconds
to 2 minutes and be 50% health and 20% mana. You are already 2 minutes
behind me and you still have to med back 80% of your mana.
I have, on occaision, been able to kill Ice Giants fast enough that I need
to pull the third one from inside the entranceway. Thats solo, and I've
never encountered anyone who can kill them as fast as I can - and that
includes pairings and threesomes of similar level.
> >I have no problem with a pair of Lava Beetles or a couple of Sonic Bats,
> >either. Pets are great. Togor is brilliant.
>
> Togor's is awesome, but it is useless if there are blasters in the
> group killing the stuff in 20 seconds . That also renders your DoT's
> useless. And if your group also has a Enchanter you pretty much end up
> playing cleric or casting useless buffs just to keep the natives happy
> and make it look like you are contributing.
Blasters are useless. They require meditation. Clarity can mitigate that
to an extent but if you have no Enchanter its downtime *all the time*. Even
with an Enchanter melée killing is faster and more efficient.
> >Then you picked the wrong class. Stat buffs don't do anything, in the
> >words of Geoffrey Zatkin, the Shaman is a class that casts well and can
> >still be effective in melée.
>
> No kidding,, that is kind'a the point I have been making.. I should
> have played a damn Enchanter and would have had Verant been even a
> little bit honest about how useless Dex/Agi/Str is. Now I have 50
> levels invested in a character that doesn't perform as advertised.
Verant have *never* described the Shaman as a "support" class.
> >Yes thanks to the pet dagger exploit. Something that few people think
will
> >survive much into the new year.
>
> What ? What does the dagger exploit have to do with Fear making a mob
> run while the pet stabs it in the back ? Mob isn't going to do damage
> to the necro pet regardless of what kind of weapon the Necro pet is or
> is not using.
There are a few wee exploits that Necros pull. FD is one. But the way a
Necro kills a level 50 mob isn't using Fear, its using a spell that shares
their HP with their pet and a spell that drains HP from a mob at a constant
rate like a Lifetap DoT.
> >You can't be high level if you don't know what you can fight at 50 and
beat
> >that is high experience and beatable.
>
> You said "Level 50" and I ask were the hell you find a level 50 you
> can get alone to solo. Instead of giving me a answer you turned it
> into some kind of BS about me not knowing what I can kill for exp.
Actually you said :-
--Quote--
> And besides that I don't know exactly what you are supposed to hunt
> down and solo at level 50. Maybe the occasional blue Spectre or Furies
> or some Guards. And when you find one it is way easier to kill
> without having to heal and manage a pet. Solo'n at 50 ,, just the
> idea of it depresses me.
--EndQuote--
You didn't ask for the specific level 50 mobs till now.
> There is nothing in LG that is level 50 (Guk wiz is highest level mob
> in LG and he isn't level 50) .
>
> Fire Giants in Sol B maybe ? Hmm, maybe a rare 50 and I haven't heard
> of anyone solo'n a Fire Giant since I don't know when.
Examples of level 50 outdoor mobs.
Allizewsaur. Level 50 Lizard in Ocean of Tears. Harvested by solo Necros
for Words.
Xanosis (sp?). Level 50 Ent in North Karana.
> Hmm The Vox priest / Ice Giant in Perma is 50 , good luck solo'n him.
>
> I haven't roamed around KK enough to know what level 50's may or may
> not be there.
I wouldn't touch a 50 in Kedge (even as a Necro who ate Allizewsaur for
breakfast. Too damn buggy and spells are a hassle to cast.
> There are a few NPC vendors that are 49+ out were you can get to them
> but their magic resist has so far prevented me from hitting them with
> so much as a root.
>
> So Now tell me were the hell you find these level 50 mobs that
> Necro's or anyone else for that matter has a chance in hell of getting
> to without a group and solo ?
What do you mean "group or solo". There are *hundreds* of level 50 and
above mobs that groups fight!!! You keep claiming to be level 50 - at least
demonstrate clue so one might believe you.
Paul Phillips
Thanks. I'll follow your advice.
Paul
In article <01bf5904$32b92940$250201c0@dell40>,
> de-buff and let my dog kill it, I could root it and DoT it and watch
it
> wither, or root it and nuke it and kill it is seconds. I can mix
these
> tactics together and solo higher than (I would imagine) any other
Shaman has
> ever managed. Its about learning and taking chances to get to learn.
>
> So get in there and learn as you go along, never worry about death
(its
> trivially non-painful) and never be afraid to take risks.
>
> --
> Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx
developed
> x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
> X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith
developed
> http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
>
--
_______________
"People will do anything for a potato."
"Everything ends."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Matthew Mc Clement
>
> Quantum Mechanic <Dread...@AntiSocial.com> wrote
> > On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 02:10:07 GMT, "Alasdair Allan"
> > <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >I don't often waste a group slot on a Druid and I prefer other tanks to
> > >Rangers. So snare isn't important to me. Even then I still prefer Root
> to
> > >Snare. Always.
> >
> > You go into Train central (aka dungeons) knowing that if a mob gets
> > away it's likely evac / die time and you prefer root to snare ??
>
> Rooting, I never let them get away. Its a trivial job and i know what to
> do.
I REALLY can't figure this out. Whenever I play other char's, I miss
snare soooo much. More than sow in fact. Root is just too unreliable for
my tastes. Maybe when fighting low greens and they flee when they hit
about 50% hp root might be better, but then I always have a DD primed
and ready to go for this, so they drop below that "magic" number and
just stand there with their backs to me.
*snip*
>
> > >With Chloroplast and Talisman of Altuna my pet can tank Ice Giants for
> > >ages. A good 2 to 3 minutes, long enough for Plague and Envenomed Bolt
> to
> > >do their work. If need be, of course I can share damage with my pet.
> >
> > I know for a fact that Talisman don't add a single hit point to pets
> > and I'm far from convinced that Cloro does anything for them either.
>
> You can see in combat what happens with Chloroplast. Pet regen doesn't
> happen when its fighting. So Chloro your pet, let it get bashed a bit then
> step in and take all the damage. After 30 seconds to a minute check pet
> health and it will have risen.
>
> What "fact" leads you to believe Talisman doesn't add to pet HP? I don't
> know a single Shaman who thinks it *doesn't*.
Its easy to show. Summon pet, get pet hurt, cast Talisman on it. You'll
see its HP bar move. It works. I think good old Quantum Mechanic read
Verants fuck up of a patch message where they said any pets over 40 odd
hp can't be hp buffed, when they meant any pet *under* 40 odd hp can't
be buffed, and took it as gospel.
Odd, are you sure your pets don't regen during fights? Mage and necro
pets do, unless they're under eithers respective augment pet buffs. Then
hp regen is just about zero, and shit slow after fights too.
> > As far as killing Ice Giants goes, I find it much easier to just dot
> > and root , root and dot. Having to cast heal on a pet and Togor's on
> > the Ice Giant is just that much more manna you have to burn and that
> > much more downtime medding it back. And if you take damage instead of
> > healing the pet your still wasting manna because hit points = manna
> > to a shaman.
>
> I finish an Ice Giant fight with 50% mana and 60% health (around 150 base
> give or take depending what weapon I use and kit I wear). I bet you finish
> with 90% health and 0% mana. Now, with Canibalize you can take 90 seconds
> to 2 minutes and be 50% health and 20% mana. You are already 2 minutes
> behind me and you still have to med back 80% of your mana.
>
> I have, on occaision, been able to kill Ice Giants fast enough that I need
> to pull the third one from inside the entranceway. Thats solo, and I've
> never encountered anyone who can kill them as fast as I can - and that
> includes pairings and threesomes of similar level.
If you want some fun, here's a minor challenge. Grab yourself an
RTS(Yes, that stick that lev 10 mages use and throw away after lev 20).
Goal is to kill a high Hg, the lev 36 or 37 ones, with just pet,
togor's and 1 DoT. And you have to stay in melee range all the time. Saw
a lev 50 shaman doing this the other day and he actually faired pretty
well. Lost about 50% hp. And of course he still had lots of mana left.
*snips tons of stuff*
Matt(who still find the idea of killing HG's with an RTS hilarious)
abatt...@netscape.net
> Druid: damage shields, teleports, pack chloroplast
i wish shamans could group chloro too but oh well :(
> Shaman: Umm.... pets? No... shaman pets suck. DoT's? Maybe at 50, but before
> then, not really... Stat buffs? Useless.
disappointing, isn't it...
> So what does the shaman do best? Sure, shamen are a balanced class, no doubt
> about it, even without stat buffs... but where druids get teleports, we get
> stat buffs. Doesn't that seem a bit, well, lame?
as the mainstay of the class, yes. fortunately i and many other shamans are
pleased that we can do soooooo much else that stat buffs really don't matter.
and even if stat buffs don't matter, whenever i get in a group the first
questions i'm asked "str buff? dex buff? can i get sow?". at least spirit of
wolf is one of the two best enchantments for players in the game (other being
clarity, i don't know which i'd rather have sometimes...).
however, and this happens to me frequently. myself and a druid, both same
level (30) /ooc'ing for a group in cazic.. 9 times out of 10 i get a group
first. i've beaten out two wizards and a druid before :).
people want shamans in groups, its outstanding. even if we can't teleport,
even if we don't have the biggest nukes. we can't clarity! (wah) but people
want us. why? because people want to have higher stats. that is the main
reason. once people have grouped with a shaman and found out their TRUE powers
(everything else <grin>) will come looking. i started to see people shout for
shamans specifically in cazic and highkeep.
i tell people flat out that i'm not going to keep their stats ticking at the
top the full time in group. if i have available mana, i'll do str and dex, and
definately spirit of wolf. only by special request do they get agility,
stamina or charisma. i have plenty of other things to spend mana on, as do the
rest of the shamans out there. hopefully people will realize that the power
isn't that we can buff stats better than anyone, but that we can do a WHOLE LOT
of stuff well.
sorry for the length. i like my shaman JUUUUUUST a little :)
> Actually, I shouldn't say that. We get THREE bind sight spells, more than any
> other class. Rock on!
flash of light and others? what is the bind sight line?
--
josh
abatt...@netscape.net
> Oh but wait.. we have SHRINK and ALCHEMI and MALOSI I ! ! ! haha..
> Wait, I'm a Shaman,, that isn't funny.
acctually, i get a lot of requests for shrink in cazic (and sometimes highkeep,
idiots). people expect me to break group to shrink them... okay, pay me 10p.
:)
> I'll trade agi / dex / str buffs for a AE Togor's Insects. Since
> Togor's doesn't aggro mezzed mobs it would be much easier than trying
> to click and guess which mob in the pile you have actually targeted.
AE togors would be neat, or AE frost DD :). AE SHRINK!!! okay i'll stop
> And I'll trade my bind sight spells and my summon druid line for a
> "Summon big ugly ass-kicking giant spider" spell. Dogs suck for Trolls
> and Ogres... We eat dogs we don't pet them.
yeah, but those ogres you give dufrenite to have wolves running all over the
place. only think my barbarian likes about dealing with them.
--
josh
abatt...@netscape.net
> The pet sucks compared to all the other class pets except for SK's
> pet. A Necro pet Eats my dog alive, it isn't even close.
compared to. that is a downfall i've pointed out to someone else. never
compare. these are apples and oranges. a goblin isn't as powerful as a hill
giant. comparison, yes. fair? no. a shaman's (who has the most utility of any
class in the game and makes a great friend and is usually quite social) pet
compared to a necro's (who has very powerful dots and lifetaps, doesn't make
many friends because they solo all the time and isn't very social) pet sucks
ass.
comparisons mean nothing. you see? it is RELATIVE.
> As far as the icing thing,, it's not like all a Necro can do is summon
> pets and DoT. They have their fair share of utility spells also.
what else do necros do? i'm curious, i have grouped with a couple of them and
thats about all they do. what does a necro have to offer a group in utility?
<spell comparisons snipped>
again, these are relative. you are comparing three DIFFERENT classes. only the
druid and shaman have any similarity, only because they are priests. and the
spells you show are all combat. what about all that utility that necros have?
i posted a lengthy dissertation about shamans in another thread, which included
a very lengthy list of spells i use all the time. only two of my everday
spells are damage, and i could care less what the ratios and damages are.
they're part of utility too :).
> Low taunt my hairy troll butt.. Envenomed Bolt is insta taunt even
> when it is resisted.
guh, indeed. tagar's insects is a good taunt sometimes too. heh.
> How are we the master at reducing mob damage ? I think Enchanter is
> the master, lord and God of reducing mob damage. Not only can they
> slow attack speed as well (some say better) than shaman but six mobs
> standing around mezzed deal 0 damage ...
i don't know about slowing attack speed as well, i haven't witnessed this one.
but enchanters are definately the champs of the crowd control arena. shamans
can do pretty well as i showed my group last night: tagar's active, root
others, move away, wade into battle :). if i had a pet, another could be tied
up with the pup :).
> I believe our God status (if we are Gods) was partially due to the
> misconception most people had/have concerning the usefulness of our
> stat buffs..
and they will continue to have that misconception until verant publishes on
paper something that says EXACTLY what EVERY SINGLE stat is used for and what
increasing it brings in benefit. i'd really like to see that document.
> Shrink is fun but what is so fun about Vision or Rage ?
i don't know about rage, never use that line. but vision is cute. i was using
it to look at ice giants and goblins in perma while hanging back with the
group. plus in a place like guk, vision is quite useful. you can peer around
the corner, cast on a wandering monster, and watch. same thing in cazic,
especially the maze. its also a poor shaman's ultravision :)
--
josh
Alasdair Allan
> Alasdair Allan wrote:
> > Rooting, I never let them get away. Its a trivial job and i know what
to
> > do.
>
> snare soooo much. More than sow in fact. Root is just too unreliable for
> my tastes. Maybe when fighting low greens and they flee when they hit
> about 50% hp root might be better, but then I always have a DD primed
> and ready to go for this, so they drop below that "magic" number and
> just stand there with their backs to me.
I guess I just have a lot of options. If root *does* miss, my dog will
almost certainly take care of it, I also have Slam, which stuns when used
from behind as you do with runners.
Overall I dunno. when you are in a tight spot - Mistmoor, for example, you
don't want them moving snare distances - so chain Rooting is worth it - but
then a Bard is better.
But having said that you need to get these classes.
> > You can see in combat what happens with Chloroplast. Pet regen doesn't
> > happen when its fighting. So Chloro your pet, let it get bashed a bit
then
> > step in and take all the damage. After 30 seconds to a minute check pet
> > health and it will have risen.
> >
> > What "fact" leads you to believe Talisman doesn't add to pet HP? I
don't
> > know a single Shaman who thinks it *doesn't*.
>
> Its easy to show. Summon pet, get pet hurt, cast Talisman on it. You'll
> see its HP bar move. It works. I think good old Quantum Mechanic read
> Verants fuck up of a patch message where they said any pets over 40 odd
> hp can't be hp buffed, when they meant any pet *under* 40 odd hp can't
> be buffed, and took it as gospel.
>
> Odd, are you sure your pets don't regen during fights? Mage and necro
> pets do, unless they're under eithers respective augment pet buffs. Then
> hp regen is just about zero, and shit slow after fights too.
I dunno, perhaps I've never noticed it. With Chloro there is a noticeable
movement much moreso than without.
> > I have, on occaision, been able to kill Ice Giants fast enough that I
need
> > to pull the third one from inside the entranceway. Thats solo, and I've
> > never encountered anyone who can kill them as fast as I can - and that
> > includes pairings and threesomes of similar level.
>
> If you want some fun, here's a minor challenge. Grab yourself an
> RTS(Yes, that stick that lev 10 mages use and throw away after lev 20).
> Goal is to kill a high Hg, the lev 36 or 37 ones, with just pet,
> togor's and 1 DoT. And you have to stay in melee range all the time. Saw
> a lev 50 shaman doing this the other day and he actually faired pretty
> well. Lost about 50% hp. And of course he still had lots of mana left.
Not really a challenge, he's tricking you becuase (possibly) you don't don't
get the pet damage on your scroll (many have the option turned off) - and if
the DoT was disease thats nearly have the Giants HPs right there!
With a decent weapon you only do about 45% of pet damage in melée as a
Shaman (no double attack, Third Attack - well second for Shamans - only does
1 damage).
However, after I got my Gatorsmash, I tried to melée a Hill Giant without a
pet or using any DoTs. Togor then bash (with Alacrity), it needed a second
Togor but I killed it.
Also, yesterday I was wandering through North Ro and the call goes up to
kill a Sand Giant. So I Togored and Raged, killed it despite Togor breaking
half way through because the Rage regen kept me going (didn't even have
Chloroplast on IIRC so it was just the 30pts from Rage).
Did I ever say I quite liked the Shaman class?