Why play a rogue?
Jenn
Maybe what I am really asking is, should I really invest time into a rogue?
Jenn
Leo Johnson
Not if its something you don't think you will enjoy. If you go in thinking you
won't like it especially, you will fulfill your on prophecy.
--
Cthulhu Loves Me
Author unknown:
Cthulhu loves me, this I know
For the High Priests tell me so
He won't eat me, no not yet
He's our Lord, all dank and wet
Tim Smith
>Why play a rogue? The skills they get don't sound very interesting.
>
>Maybe what I am really asking is, should I really invest time into a rogue?
Rogues do more damage in a typical fight than any other class. More
than warriors. More than monks. More than druids or necros or shaman
with their DOTs and or pets. More than wizards nuking (wizards can do
more damage over 30 seconds to a minute...but any fight that lasts
longer, and the rogue will do more, without causing downtime).
Rogues can move if they are hiding and sneaking. No one else can move
while hidden. Rogues get a success/failure message when they try to
hide and sneak. No one else does. I believe rogues also have higher
skill caps in one or both of these than anyone else.
Why is this so good? Because rogue hide is the best invisibility in
the game. It works against both living and undead. In the old world,
there are only three places, I believe, where a hiding/sneaking rogue
cannot explore safetly (parts of LGuk and SolB, and part of the Hole
if not a worshiper of Brell) (and maybe the planes?). The situation
in Kunark and Velious is similar.
This makes rogues the masters of corpse recovery (dragging a corpse
does not break hiding), unless you want to shell out a lot of plat to
have a necro summon corpses.
It also makes rogues excellent scouts. A rogue can go ahead and find
out exactly what the situation is, without aggroing the mobs.
--Tim Smith
Night RaVeN
rogue things... so you end up going around fighting like a warrior in the
end... DUH !!! Talk about bad design....
"Jenn" <twp...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9npg2u$4d$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
Bryan Youmans
>
> Why play a rogue? The skills they get don't sound very interesting.
? And which class' skills, outside maybe a monk, *do* sound interesting?
(an_wizard01 says 'oooo I just got specialize: divination!....').
Actually, rogues get some of the best skills outside of feign death:
Backstab is tons o' fun and part of what makes them the masters of
damage; Hide and Sneak are mind-bogglingly useful; they get Evade (Hide
used during combat), which is also just incredibly useful; plus the
regular gamut of dual wield, double attack, riposte, parry, instill
doubt, etc etc. They also get several unique skills: picklocks, sense
and disarm traps, pickpocket (nothing like stealing a giant's head off
it's own shoulders...), apply poison, make poison. post 50 they get all
sorts of nifty discs and abilities like warriors and monks.
> Maybe what I am really asking is, should I really invest time into a rogue?
I don't know, what kind of play experience are you looking for?
Rogues deal massive damage. With top of the line equipment and well
played, no one else comes close to dealing as much sustained damage over
long periods of time with no need to rest.
That being the case, rogue's are as equipment dependent as warriors.
They are the most group-dependent class in the game. A rogue without
someone in the group to allow him to keep the target's back in view as
much as possible (whether that be a tank, or a pet, or someone using
fear) is just a poor ranger. But in a good group, rogues shine like few
other classes. You can never go wrong by adding a rogue to your group
(unless they are a rouge - like the one my SK grouped with in OT at
level 34: "man, I can't taunt these things off you", "yeah, I haven't
ever bothered to practice my evade")
As was already mentioned, rogues are excellent at CR and scouting, since
their hide/sneak combo allows them to be invis and ITU simultaneously.
Also, they can buy/sell and bank in openly hostile areas, which can be
nice.
Overall, I find them to be one of the most enjoyable classes I've
played. Just depends on what you're looking for, though, as to whether
you should "really invest time into a rogue".
Jakugg
As a tank, I have to rely on the help of a damage dealer to keep things moving.
I've worked with monks, wizards, pallies, necros, you name it. I also work, on a
nearly constant basis, with a rogue. Give me a skillful rogue any day. He
massively outdamages me constantly, makes for short fights, and manages aggro so
that he's not a mana sponge to the cleric. For group activities, as I said, I'll
take the rogue hands down.
(disclaimer: a badly played rogue is, of course, just as sucky as a badly played
wizard, monk, etc.) But it's a VERY useful class. Particularly in the mid to
higher mid levels against mobs in excess of 5 to 8 KHP.
--
Jakugg Blackheart, Troll Warrior of 47 Campaigns
a.k.a.
Jakys Lv'Tyrr, the Mad Monk of Qeynos
Monk of 25 Seasons, Silent Fist
- - - -
"Anything more than a metric buttload of mobs is a bardic pull."
Arolpin Lorespinner
Des Herriott
> Why play a rogue? The skills they get don't sound very interesting.
>
> Maybe what I am really asking is, should I really invest time into a rogue?
Disclaimer: I've never played a rogue (well I have a level 5 rogue
but that hardly counts)
Rogues are the best damage dealers in the game, bar none. Only monks
approach their damage output, and even they're significantly behind.
Wizards come nowhere near.
They can move through the majority of the world with impunity with hide
& sneak (although this isn't as effective in some very high level
dungeons), making them superb scouts and corpse retrievers, and decent
pullers.
They can pick locks and disarm traps in several dungeons, allowing
access to otherwise difficult or impossible areas. Howling Stones &
Sebilis Crypt are two prime examples of high level areas where rogues
are in demand. Trap disarming is most useful in Velious - Tower of
Frozen Shadow, Velketor's Labyrinth & Dragon Necropolis, for example.
I'd say that makes them fun to play. It's all personal preference
though.
--
Des Herriott
des.he...@oracle.com
- speaking for myself, not my employer
Lannella / Busker
bit bored. I tried a rogue and have barely touched the others since.
I am a master of agro management. By the end of a fight, I (yes, I) should
have seen to it that the tank took most of the damage. If not, it should
have been me taking instead of any of the casters. I can pretty much decide
who gets hit and when IF I am doing my job right (and if everyone else is
doing their job (and not overnuking)).
I am a master of reconaissance. My sneak and hide is far superior to both
Invis and IVU combined. It never drops unexpectedly and I *always* know
when I've succeeded. I am only vulnerable to mobs which SeeInvis and even
then Sneak, when properly used, can get me past some of those. I recently
snuck through the lair of the arch-lich Miragul in EF, and to the depths of
Castle MM, under the belly of a great dragon (by accident!), through SkyFire
and deep into LGuk. There is nothing like the thrill of being surrounded by
ready-to-agro reds and strolling right past them.
I am a master of damage. When properly taunted (thank you, tanks) I can
dish out phenomenal damage. My backstabs do approximately 30% of my damage
and is pretty much on top of all normal hits I do. When I get into the 50s,
my disciplines will add even more damage, including *double* backstabs. At
60th, I will get the chance (just like with a War's Crits) of doing an
ASSASSINATION of 32000 damage. There's nothing like watching that
highlighted "..crits for 50 damage!" when you've just subtly slid in a blade
doing 200+.
I can be a better puller than a FDing monk. With proper application of
Sneak while pulling, you can separate a camp without ever pulling them all
in the first place. (This one I've still got to learn, but it's
awe-inspiring to see it done).
ON THE OTHER HAND,
I am easily THE most group dependant class. I can rarely solo a blue
(though I've found a couple that I go back to when I want to up my defensive
skills), and I have *never ever* soloed an even, yellow, or red. I have low
HP and, normally, mediocre AC. I can dish it out, but I can't take it.
(That's class balance.)
I am almost entirely equipment dependant. I'm as good as dead if I'm
ambushed on a corpse run. You can't backstab if it's facing you, and you
can't stab at all without a weapon.
We are inundated with players who want to play rouges (not rogues) and never
bother to learn their skills (like that 34th Rouge the other fellow mentions
never learning to evade).
We attract losers who think that playing a rogue entitles them to rob their
groups blind, so the 'honest' rogues suffer as a result.
I can't spend 5 minutes in EC without some green rouge in better equipment
trying to compare what I've worked to get (I now go in disguise into EC with
torch and doll).
The rogue class when well played can be extremely exhilarating and fun.
There's a lot more to it than 'get behind and poke'.
--
Lannella Velg'larn
Quenshithust (41st) Shebali, Druzzil Ro
Safehouse Ring Warden (www.thesafehouse.com)
http://eqdb.allakhazam.com/userinfo.html?action=upgd&player=114813
Lannella / Busker
"Des Herriott" <Des.He...@oracle.com> wrote in message > They can pick
locks and disarm traps in several dungeons, allowing
> access to otherwise difficult or impossible areas. Howling Stones &
> Sebilis Crypt are two prime examples of high level areas where rogues
> are in demand. Trap disarming is most useful in Velious - Tower of
> Frozen Shadow, Velketor's Labyrinth & Dragon Necropolis, for example.
I'd not even touched on that in my post. I *wish* they'd make locks and
traps more useful and interesting. Once when I first went into CoM, a raid
was missing their guild rogue and I was offered 50pp just to sneak to the
back and unlock the door. I turned it down because it was fun sneaking back
by myself to them through all the reds. I opened the door and there was a
nasty Black Reaver not even aware of my presence.
Orlun
>
>I'd not even touched on that in my post. I *wish* they'd make locks and
>traps more useful and interesting. Once when I first went into CoM, a raid
>was missing their guild rogue and I was offered 50pp just to sneak to the
>back and unlock the door. I turned it down because it was fun sneaking
back
>by myself to them through all the reds. I opened the door and there was a
>nasty Black Reaver not even aware of my presence.
>
CoM doing the front spawns. I got a tell and was offered 200pp to go pick
those doors. Unfortunately, I had not kept my lockpick skill up to max and
wasn't able to help. DOH! Oh well...the next night saw my clicking on the
locked door in East Freeport for 2 hours maxing my skill. I'm ready now...
sigh
Orlun 47th rogue, xev
Tim Smith
>I can be a better puller than a FDing monk. With proper application of
>Sneak while pulling, you can separate a camp without ever pulling them all
>in the first place. (This one I've still got to learn, but it's
>awe-inspiring to see it done).
Won't that only work if the camp is laid out right? Also, if you do
get more than one, or if you pick up an add on the way back, you are
stuck with it, aren't you? The monk is not.
That's why monks are the best pullers. They have the skills to handle
the situation when things do not go right.
--Tim Smith
Jenn
When I said interesting what I should have said useful... I've only been
playing for about a month so I haven't that much experience...
yet. :)
jenn
Elissa
Jenn wrote:
I was in a CoV faction group last night in Great Divide.
We had a level 60 paladin, a level 59 cleric, 53 druid, 54 wizard, 56 shaman
and a 52 wizard.
We were fighting alongside a 60 rogue. She was not grouped with us, as there
was no room. A Frost Giant Elite was pulled - blue to me, so I was a bit
excited at the prospect of getting a bit of experience, since everything else
we were killing was green.
The single, ungrouped rogue got the kill.
--
Elissa Silver`Rain
Level 54 High Elf Wizard
Member of the Forest Shadows
Tarew Marr
--
when emailing, please remove .invalid from my email address or it will bounce!
Lannella / Busker
That's why I phrased it "..can be..". There will be times where social agro
will bring more than one, no matter what. I have colleagues that can
separate some areas which they've been told impossible without a monk. God,
I want to learn this skill!
--
Lannella Velg'larn
Quenshithust Shebali, Druzzil Ro
Mark A. Rimer
> get more than one, or if you pick up an add on the way back, you are
> stuck with it, aren't you?
Absolutely not! The thing to remember is that sneak lowers aggro
radius. I have _many_ times separated a camp, and with a good
lead back to my group, had an aggro blue/even/yellow/red pop
in front of me...it is entirely possible to:
1) push "sneak" while running
2) sneak past the critter
3) keep sneaking until your own pull is also
past the critter
4) un-sneak and finish the run back to the
group
The trick is aggro distance. If you're sneaking when both
you AND the pull go past the possible add, he won't add,
either. Distance has a lot to do with it, as well as facing.
But it is EXTREMELY possible to sneak pull right past
an aggro mob with another of his friends in tow.
>That's why monks are the best pullers. They have the skills to handle
> the situation when things do not go right.
That is true under level 50 or so, and some folks would
argue it's only true up to level 35. After then, I've seen
entirely too many monks successfully FD and get pounded
to death while laying on the ground...might as well have
the druid pull.
Sneak pulling is much more art than skill...but skill comes
in to it, too :-).
Mark A. Rimer
news:3BA144E9...@home.com.invalid...
> The single, ungrouped rogue got the kill.
Wanna be in the KS group on a raid? Find the group
with 3 rogues and a cleric, and ask 'em if they'd
mind if you joined...
:-)
Leo Johnson
Elissa wrote:
>
> Jenn wrote:
>
> > Why play a rogue? The skills they get don't sound very interesting.
> >
> > Maybe what I am really asking is, should I really invest time into a rogue?
> >
> > Jenn
>
> I was in a CoV faction group last night in Great Divide.
> We had a level 60 paladin, a level 59 cleric, 53 druid, 54 wizard, 56 shaman
> and a 52 wizard.
>
> We were fighting alongside a 60 rogue. She was not grouped with us, as there
> was no room. A Frost Giant Elite was pulled - blue to me, so I was a bit
> excited at the prospect of getting a bit of experience, since everything else
> we were killing was green.
>
> The single, ungrouped rogue got the kill.
>
> --
> Elissa Silver`Rain
> Level 54 High Elf Wizard
> Member of the Forest Shadows
> Tarew Marr
at 35 with my rogue in the ghost room in unrest our group leader went link dead
so we were regrouping when the room popped and we got two tentacle terrors and
festering hag, and I got the kill on all three while not yet added to the group.
> --
>
> when emailing, please remove .invalid from my email address or it will bounce!
--
Leo Johnson
Rogue Pong heheh
Philippe Steindl
: Rogues are the best damage dealers in the game, bar none. Only monks
: approach their damage output, and even they're significantly behind.
: Wizards come nowhere near.
You hear that very often. But don't all classes constantly have to worry
about damage dealt, as you get aggro? If a rogue constantly outputs maximum
damage, he'll get aggroed and dies like a fly or sucks all healers dry,
causing downtime etc, so the groups overall damage is bad. And if a rogue
has to manage damage in a way he doesn't deal to much at once, what's the
point of being a maximum damage dealer? Seen like this, the only survivable
front class would be a tank .. not too much damage, but surviving any aggro
(well .. not any .. but any normal aggro). This would just mean that classes
like rangers or rogues are senseless (die fast, deal more damage). What am
I missing here? :)
Freeman
"Philippe Steindl" <i...@nv.ethz.ch> wrote in message
news:3ba1...@pfaff.ethz.ch...
Rogues get an ability called evade. I don't think it's something you can
train in like other skills (correct me there, I only played my Rogue to 14)
but it does raise like a normal skill. You basically hit Hide in combat and
it will either give you a message of you cannot duck from combat or you have
evaded combat. It drops you down the hate list, like FD (not sure it wipes
it clear or not) and so the Mob turns back on the tanks who should be chain
taunting and not far below the rogue in hate, anyway.
Rogues are masters of damage (in a group) and have some nice RP type skills
that are fun to mess around with. Solo they are weaker than Warriors, having
no (real) self heal and less armour class and Health they become group
dependant before a warrior does (unless heavily twinked) They are also often
overlooked in groups, some people don't seem to realise how much damage a
rogue will do with standing behind a mob.
CF
Mark A. Rimer
news:3BA1795A...@home.com...
> Rogue Pong heheh
Heh...my guild sister and I actually have backstab keyed
as a macro:
Mine--/doability 3
/say PING!
Hers--/doablity 2
/say PONG!
:-)
Mark A. Rimer
> about damage dealt, as you get aggro? If a rogue constantly outputs
maximum
> damage, he'll get aggroed and dies like a fly or sucks all healers dry,
> causing downtime etc, so the groups overall damage is bad. And if a rogue
> has to manage damage in a way he doesn't deal to much at once, what's the
> point of being a maximum damage dealer? Seen like this, the only
survivable
> front class would be a tank .. not too much damage, but surviving any
aggro
> (well .. not any .. but any normal aggro). This would just mean that
classes
> like rangers or rogues are senseless (die fast, deal more damage). What am
> I missing here? :)
Evade.
Leo Johnson
with a well timed evade by a rogue, about all that is usually missed damage wise
is one attack cycle, they are still dealing max or near max damage. If the
Rogue doesn't know how to evade well, or has tanks that aren't able to taunt
well, then yes the rogue will start to drop like a fly, and become a mana
sponge, however a properly equipped rogue knows that AC is god for all Melee
classes, just like it is for the true Tank classes, and can actually take a hit
or two without dropping. While str makes a little more difference in the rogues
damage output than it does for warriors etc. NEVER should str equipment be
sought over AC. or the goofy stats that Verants says are important, dex and
agility. I am not sure who should wear a serpentine bracer (if anyone) but it
sure as hell is not a rogue or a monk, two classes that when people thought
stats mattered, were always told get a serp bracer for the dex and agility.
Bryan Youmans
>
> Des Herriott <Des.He...@oracle.com> wrote:
> : Rogues are the best damage dealers in the game, bar none. Only monks
> : approach their damage output, and even they're significantly behind.
> : Wizards come nowhere near.
>
> You hear that very often. But don't all classes constantly have to worry
> about damage dealt, as you get aggro?
Yep.
> If a rogue constantly outputs maximum
> damage, he'll get aggroed and dies like a fly or sucks all healers dry,
> causing downtime etc, so the groups overall damage is bad.
Nope. This only applies to "rouges", not rogues.
> And if a rogue
> has to manage damage in a way he doesn't deal to much at once, what's the
> point of being a maximum damage dealer?
Rogue's have a little skill it sounds like you haven't heard of, called
Evade. Investigate that a bit, and you'll understand.
> Seen like this, the only survivable
> front class would be a tank .. not too much damage, but surviving any aggro
> (well .. not any .. but any normal aggro).
Rogues are not a "front class".
> This would just mean that classes
> like rangers or rogues are senseless
Someone hasn't grouped with a good rogue! (Nor a good ranger, it sounds
like). Rogues senseless? Ask anyone who plays the post newbie level game
which class consistently dishes out the most damage, with no need to med
and usually little healing needed.
> (die fast, deal more damage). What am
> I missing here? :)
An understanding of the Rogue skill list :)
Philippe Steindl
: Nope. This only applies to "rouges", not rogues.
? Ebay? :)
: Rogue's have a little skill it sounds like you haven't heard of, called
: Evade. Investigate that a bit, and you'll understand.
Yes, I didn't know. Is evade as effective as FD?
: Rogues are not a "front class".
Well I meant melee .. taking damage.
:> This would just mean that classes
:> like rangers or rogues are senseless
: Someone hasn't grouped with a good rogue! (Nor a good ranger, it sounds
: like). Rogues senseless? Ask anyone who plays the post newbie level game
Ok that was maybe the wrong way of saying it :) I do have played with rogues
and like them. It was more asking of what I missed (since without evade,
I'd really not recommend playing a rogue). That's all :)
: An understanding of the Rogue skill list :)
hehe, ok. Point taken!
Bryan Youmans
>
> Bryan Youmans <byou...@mitre.org> wrote:
> : Nope. This only applies to "rouges", not rogues.
>
> ? Ebay? :)
>
or clueless twink :)
georg
>
> : Rogues are not a "front class".
>
> Well I meant melee .. taking damage.
Rogues are not meant to take damage. That's why they stand behind the
mob. They are a melee class simply because they rely on their physical
ability to knock the stuffing out of their opponent, instead of mystical
or magical means like spells.
A good rogue who knows how to evade keeps aggro *off*, and the backsides
turned to oneself. It is not like feign death where the mob aggro list
is hopefully cleared while the FDer lays still. It is more a temporary
turn off of auto-attack while combat continues. Evade gets used LOTS
during combat.
-Tiru
admirer of Orlun
Davian
> Bryan Youmans <byou...@mitre.org> wrote:
> : Nope. This only applies to "rouges", not rogues.
>
> ? Ebay? :)
>
> : Rogue's have a little skill it sounds like you haven't heard of, called
> : Evade. Investigate that a bit, and you'll understand.
>
> Yes, I didn't know. Is evade as effective as FD?
>
Much, much more. Evade moves you lower on the Hate list without the need to
stop attacking. No mana requirement or casting time either, like the ranger
Jolt spell has.
Feign Death will stop aggro while feigned, but you are still high on the hate
list. When you get up it might go back to you, and once you start attacking
again it's not long until you're top of the list once more. Evade actually
drops several hundred points of hate from the mob's list. Gone forever, not
just until you piss it off again.
The advantage for Feign death is that Evade will never completely take you off
the hate list (to the point where it stops attacking). So it is useless for
splitting pulls and such. If you evade without attacking, you will still stay
on the hate list, just with a 0 hate value. (Meaning it will wait until
everything else is dead, then come for you before reverting to non aggro
status.)
> : Rogues are not a "front class".
>
> Well I meant melee .. taking damage.
>
Understood. Rogues are still not a "front class".
A good Rogue will never be hit, unless he wants to or all the tanks have died.
Orlun
Philippe Steindl wrote in message <3ba1...@pfaff.ethz.ch>...
Rogues us evade to LOWER the agro on them. My experience with the new
(nerfed, or "fixed" as verant puts it) is that a successfull evade will
lower your agro the equivalant of about 200-250 damage hits. When I'm
teamed with Jakugg and we are both stabbing and slashing as fast as we can,
I have to evade constantly or I will be agro'ed. Even by letting him engage
the mob solo and taunting for up to 7-10 seconds, I do enough damage to
sometimes turn the mobs before they get to about half life. If I can get
many successfull evades, I can keep the agro on the tank, but sometimes if I
get 2 or 3 failures in a row, the mob will agro and I will have to back off.
My evade hotkey disables attack, clicks hide and sense heading. If
successfull, I immediately hit attack again and backstab. If not, I hit
attack and sometimes hold on backstab. I aways click evade every 10 seconds
or so no matter what. Most times we fight, we can go many mobs before I
take any hits. This enables the healer (tiru) to focus on the tank and use
Complete Heals at the right times.
About rogues in general. I LOVE playing my rogue. My alts are all but
ignored. The ability to hide/sneak practically anywhere and take an AFK at a
moments notice is a VERY nice ability. One point to all none rogues, always
stand on the opposite end of the mob as the rogue. Save the smelly end for
us as we are used to the stench. A rogue is the MOST group dependant player
there is IMHO. Most rogues will go out of there way to be fair and generous
groupers if they want to have friends invite them into future groups. When I
practice pickpocketing while grouping, I ALWAYS split the coins back to the
group, most times rounding the amounts up for the split. When grouping with
Clerics and other spell component classes, I ALWAYS try to carry gems for
their buffs, and most times give them gems for the whole group. More advice
is to let the rogues master loot as we are the perfect class to chase down
fleeing mobs. I ALWAYS give more then a fair share to the healers and other
medding casters. When speed pulling, let the rogue finish the mob off while
the puller goes pulling and the tank gets healed. By the time we get back,
the next mob should already be engaged for a few seconds and we will have
less trouble staying low on the MOBS argo list.
Orlun, 47th Arsejabber, Xev (Officer of Vice, Bearers of Fate)
Orlun
One more point about the Evade skill. It can lower your hate enough so that
the attacking MOB will disengage and start pounding on innocent bystanders
or other pullers. In the Dreadlands on the north wall, I was the puller
(read Jboots and no Sowers) and would pull the mobs back to the group. I
would hit evade as the mob approched so they would go for the tank. If the
mobs were too far awhile when I attempted evade, every once in awhile, they
would head over to the next group as their puller and I had sometimes
crossed paths. Kind of funny at times as no one got hurt. (we would go get
em back) I don't think they ever figured out why it was happening either as
they kept saying that they wernt Kill/stealing or nuking.)
so be carefull when evading by others
I used to use evade when taking (Mobs gone bad) to the guards to help them
get argo and me stay alive. (highhold keep and GD)
Orlun
Matt Frisch
into the ether:
>Bryan Youmans <byou...@mitre.org> wrote:
>: Nope. This only applies to "rouges", not rogues.
>
>? Ebay? :)
>
>: Rogue's have a little skill it sounds like you haven't heard of, called
>: Evade. Investigate that a bit, and you'll understand.
>
>Yes, I didn't know. Is evade as effective as FD?
Evade is far, FAR more effective than FD at reducing aggro.
Evade allows you to continue hitting, FD means you are useless.
Evade is instant, and doesn't suffer the get-cast-on failure that FD does
Evade works on everything. Many high level mobs can "see through" feign.
Only advantage to Feign is that it works on multiple creatures at the same
time.
Jason Willoughby
> Why is this so good? Because rogue hide is the best invisibility in
> the game. It works against both living and undead. In the old world,
> there are only three places, I believe, where a hiding/sneaking rogue
> cannot explore safetly (parts of LGuk and SolB, and part of the Hole
> if not a worshiper of Brell) (and maybe the planes?).
Old World? There are five places I won't go:
1. Sol b fire giants
2. Permafrost ice giants
3. Kedge, sneak don't work underwater, sorry
4. Hole, if kos to MinionsOfUnderfoot
5. Fear
Some of the areas you mentioned are interesting but not impossible, Hate is
just plane fun. Err, plain fun...
Tim Smith
> What am I missing here? :)
Taunt, evade, jolt, and concussion.
--Tim Smith
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>Des Herriott <Des.He...@oracle.com> wrote:
>: Rogues are the best damage dealers in the game, bar none. Only monks
>: approach their damage output, and even they're significantly behind.
>: Wizards come nowhere near.
>
>You hear that very often. But don't all classes constantly have to worry
>about damage dealt, as you get aggro?
This is why before Evade was put in, rogues were a "broken" class.
They could generate sick amounts of damage but wouldn't have anywhere
near the AC/hps to handle the aggro generated from that damage making
them utter mana sponges.
With Evade, a rogue can pretty much generate damage to his/her heart's
content.
And remember how Evade works, it's a skill check, there's no
resistence check against it. You can successfully evade from the
toughest mobs in the game.
-- Sang.
Corey Nelson
>practice pickpocketing while grouping, I ALWAYS split the coins back to the
>group, most times rounding the amounts up for the split.
Why? You know that it's from a completely seperate pool than the dropped loot,
right?
--
Corey Nelson
come ride the short bus:
http://short.bus.tripod.com
Wolfie
"Corey Nelson" wrote
> >When I
> >practice pickpocketing while grouping, I ALWAYS split the coins back to
the
> >group, most times rounding the amounts up for the split.
>
> Why? You know that it's from a completely seperate pool than the dropped
loot,
> right?
Really? My experience would say otherwise.
Leo Johnson
That's because you are correct wolfie and Corey Nelson is wrong on
this. There is only one pool of loot. Misinformation like this is why
some people still don't like grouping with rogues.
Mark A. Rimer
>Why? You know that it's from a completely seperate pool than the dropped
>loot, right?
Wrong. After release, this used to be the case. You could take your level
15 wood-elf rogue and theoretically pick 100K plat off of the same orc
pawn inside Crushbone...as long as you could put up with doing it 2 or 3
coppers
at a time. Then you could kill him, and he'd have 1 silver, or a few
coppers.
Now, and this is verifiable fact, you can only pickpocket the loot that is
already
generated when the mob spawns. The folks that run ShowEQ can testify to
this, as I've seen a level 20 ranger run around WC and find every bear with
a
HQ pelt and every wisp carrying a GL. The critters that hold money spawn
with a certain amount, and you can ONLY pick down to 1 of each coin.
Orc pawn? Pick to your heart's content...you'll be lucky to get a scalp and
8 coppers...kill him and receive 1 copper.
Orc centurion? Pick to your heart's content...you'll end up with a few
silver,
a few copper, and maybe an item if he carries one...kill him and receive
1 silver 1 copper, or 1 copper.
Orc legionnaire? Pick to your heart's content...you'll maybe get an item,
maybe a few gold (yeah, right :-) ), some silver, and some
copper...kill
him and receive 1 gold 1 silver 1 copper, or 1 silver 1 copper, or 1
copper.
Ry`Gorr Elite? Pick to your heart's content...if you're lucky, you might get
a gem or quest component...a couple of plat, a few gold, a few silver,
and
a few copper...kill him and receive 1 platinum 1 gold 1 silver 1 copper,
or
1 gold 1 silver 1 copper, or 1 silver 1 copper, or 1 copper.
I hope you see the pattern.
On the other side, it is entirely possible to NOT pick a critter tottally
clean
down to the "one of each coin is left" welfare line. I'm ally with the
Freeport
militia and the paladins of N. FP, but every time I run by a guard near the
zone, I pickpocket. If I'm lucky enough to pull a plat, that's one less plat
for a guard-camper 3 days from now. I didn't pick him clean, but on the
other hand, if you've ever spent a while killing DE guards and every single
one you find has 1 pp 1 gp 1 sp 1 cp, or some other version thereof, you
can tell a rogue has been around. It's really fun with a SoW potion and
a level 60 rogue...run through Rathe Mountains after a patch and pick every
HG clean...hear the shouts "Somebody tell Gerry he owes us a bunch of
money...none of these giants have more than a plat on 'em :-) ." No big
deal,
the folks hunting just kill the welfare giants and the next round spawns
with
normal-for-their-level loot.
PICKPOCKET LOOT COMES FROM THE SAME POOL AS THE
LOOT POOL FROM KILLING A MOB!!!
There's no other way to state it, and the only reason that folks hang on
to the idea that it isn't this way is that it WASN'T that way for almost 9
months
or so after release. Of course, it wasn't a big deal...before Kunark came
out, if you saw a rogue in a single week, you were special. The folks
playing
rogues WANTED to be rogues, not just another twink (and nobody twinked
a rogue...it was a dead-end class at the time, even though it was fun, and
if you didn't have a network of friends, you couldn't get a group). After
Evade was added to the mix, rogues became much more that a 20 second
DoT-mana sponge-corpse recovery. When rogues got a decent >8 damage
piercer that wasn't from a boss-mob in Fear (heading up to fear
dual-weilding
Serrated Bone Dirks was as uber as a rogue got, unless you had a
Crystalline
Spear from Vox), more people started playing 'em. So Verant stealth nerfed
the separate loot pool.
As an aside, level a rogue up and take him through the Burning Rapier
quest...and pickpocket the Clockwork Oil Stout from the clockwork in
Sol A. I've done it twice.
1) 1 pp, 4 gp, 2 gp, 1 gp, 9 sp, 3 sp, 1 sp, 2 cp, 1 cp, 1 COS
2) 3 pp, 2 pp, 1 pp, 2 gp, 1 gp, 5 cp, 2 cp, 1 cp, 1 COS
The BR quest was added after the stealth-nerf, or it'd have been fun to
pp away plat after plat after plat on that little bugger...until you aggro'd
him and his 16 companions, too :-).
Tim Smith
>Now, and this is verifiable fact, you can only pickpocket the loot that is
>already
>generated when the mob spawns. The folks that run ShowEQ can testify to
>this, as I've seen a level 20 ranger run around WC and find every bear with
>a
>HQ pelt and every wisp carrying a GL. The critters that hold money spawn
>with a certain amount, and you can ONLY pick down to 1 of each coin.
You can't tell with ShowEQ which bears have HQ pelts, nor can you tell
how much coin a mob has. You can tell which wisps have GLSes and
which do not (can't tell whether the ones that don't have an LS or a
burned out LS, though).
The server only tells the client about mob loot that is wielded or
worn by the mob. Wisps wield their lightstones, so the client is told
about them.
I believe the way that it was verified that pickpocketing comes from
the same pool as dropped coin is by experiment.
--Tim Smith
Bryan Youmans
>
> And remember how Evade works, it's a skill check, there's no
> resistence check against it. You can successfully evade from the
> toughest mobs in the game.
>
> -- Sang.
That's an excellent point.
James
Sang K. Choe wrote in message <3ba43109....@news.isomedia.com>...
>"Philippe Steindl" <i...@nv.ethz.ch> wrote:
>
>>You hear that very often. But don't all classes constantly have to worry
>>about damage dealt, as you get aggro?
>
>This is why before Evade was put in, rogues were a "broken" class.
>They could generate sick amounts of damage but wouldn't have anywhere
>near the AC/hps to handle the aggro generated from that damage making
>them utter mana sponges.
Before Evade the damage wasn't exactly "sick". You're talking about
someone likely having an 8/27 piercer mainhand and an 8/24 slasher offhand,
who had no minimum damage on the backstab. Compared with a warrior in the
rear arc who had two Yaks, there's not a lot of damage differential. What IS
massive is the aggro created by even a missed backstab.
Over this weekend I did Pool in Sol B with my 45 rogue (Crystalline
Fang/Velium Short Blade, Handwraps haste), a cleric, and a 44 WIZ. Nothing
ever left me for the WIZ, and he soon figured out that if he stood behind
the mob and nuked with his largest nuke that I could immediately turn the
mob back around with BS, Disarm, Pick Pockets. Even against a mob with no
weapon and a successful PP roll, and a whiffed BS, it would turn back
around.
>With Evade, a rogue can pretty much generate damage to his/her heart's
>content.
>
>And remember how Evade works, it's a skill check, there's no
>resistence check against it. You can successfully evade from the
>toughest mobs in the game.
Strong point. Now if only that "perfectly still to hide" thing was
fixed.
James
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
> Before Evade the damage wasn't exactly "sick". You're talking about
>someone likely having an 8/27 piercer mainhand and an 8/24 slasher offhand,
>who had no minimum damage on the backstab. Compared with a warrior in the
>rear arc who had two Yaks, there's not a lot of damage differential.
No there was.
Remember, yaks are the same ratio as 8/24. Rogues were ALWAYS
outdamaging warriors by a heafty margin. The problem was that they
had no way to control aggro whatsoever, none--other than dying.
-- Sang.
Dan Day
wrote:
>Now, and this is verifiable fact, you can only pickpocket the loot that is
>already
>generated when the mob spawns.
Another way to verify it is to "give" items to the mob. As
you can prove by giving an item to a mob and then killing it,
"given" items end up in their "general loot" list (not counting
No Drop items, which poof if you hand them over).
You can give a normal item to a mob (e.g. a Bone Chips), and you'll
eventually pickpocket it back from them if you pickpocket
long enough, which demonstrates that the pickpocketed items
come from the "general loot" list.
Lance
Dan Day wrote:
> Another way to verify it is to "give" items to the mob. As
> you can prove by giving an item to a mob and then killing it,
> "given" items end up in their "general loot" list (not counting
> No Drop items, which poof if you hand them over).
>
> You can give a normal item to a mob (e.g. a Bone Chips), and you'll
> eventually pickpocket it back from them if you pickpocket
> long enough, which demonstrates that the pickpocketed items
> come from the "general loot" list.
You don't complete the thought:
Once you pickpocket the bone chip off that fire beetle, kill it, and
notice that it doesn't have one, despite the fact that you gave it
to him. Hmm, wonder where it went? Oh yeah, you pickpocketed
it already!
Finneous
15 rogue, Morel Thule
James
Sang K. Choe wrote in message <3ba699e6...@news.isomedia.com>...
>On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:27:13 GMT, "James" <jamesg...@home.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Before Evade the damage wasn't exactly "sick". You're talking about
>>someone likely having an 8/27 piercer mainhand and an 8/24 slasher
offhand,
>>who had no minimum damage on the backstab. Compared with a warrior in the
>>rear arc who had two Yaks, there's not a lot of damage differential.
>
>No there was.
>Remember, yaks are the same ratio as 8/24.
Yes, I know. The above rogue is equipped with a Serrated Bone Dirk
mainhand and a Yak offhand. Those ratios didn't come from thin air. ;-)
Now re-read what I've said. The rogue has a weaker main-hand weapon, a
weaker proc on his main-hand weapon, no appreciable skill difference in Dual
Wield (200 vs. 210, I believe) or other offensive skills that grant ATK. His
backstab has NO minimum at that point in time - he can, and does, frequently
land backstabs for 1 point of damage. Using my rogue's max BS as a guideline
I imagine the top backstab was in the 180 range. The ATK rating of Backstab
would be the same as a fatty warrior's ATK rating for Bash, his special
attack. Given what we know about doing median damage, I stand by the
original statement: the damage output of a pre-Evade rogue and a warrior,
both in the rear arc, was not substantially different.
So why were mobs turning around so much on rogues? Again, I stated why.
A backstab attack has a ton of hate hardcoded into it. My rogue can whiff a
backstab and have the mob turn on her just from that attempt. So any rogue
pounding away from behind was going to generate a ton of hate regardless of
damage output.
>Rogues were ALWAYS
>outdamaging warriors by a heafty margin. The problem was that they
>had no way to control aggro whatsoever, none--other than dying.
And turning off attack and backing up, but that defeats the point of
doing heightened damage. There's also fewer old-world mobs that have
proximity as *the* determining factor in aggro, unlike Velious.
James