Curta Calculators

[Jason Evans]

If we're going to talk about really retro tech like pencils, why hasn't
anyone come out with a reproduction Curta calculator? You can buy plans
to build your own with 3d printed parts, but nothing really substantial.
I can imaging that they would sell even if the relatively price is high
and available in small batches and the patent must have run out on them
years ago. People are paying $2000+ for them on ebay so I don't see how
they wouldn't be profitable.

For those who don't know what this is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta

--
JE

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 20:20:58 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans
<jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:

>
>If we're going to talk about really retro tech like pencils, why hasn't
>anyone come out with a reproduction Curta calculator? You can buy plans
>to build your own with 3d printed parts, but nothing really substantial.
>I can imaging that they would sell even if the relatively price is high
>and available in small batches and the patent must have run out on them
>years ago. People are paying $2000+ for them on ebay so I don't see how
>they wouldn't be profitable.

The same way an imitation of any collectable is not profitable. People
don't pay $2000 for them because of their utility, they pay it because
of their collectability.

[Carlos E.R.]

Fascinating history :-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Chris]

A whole shed load of precision parts in a mechanical calculator, which
would probably cost $millions of tooling to make in 2020. There are no
short cuts to that level of precision in engineering. Then you need the
original dimensioned drawings to copy the measurements.

Even making a one of as project might take years and those machines
were notorious for jams and other problems...

Chris
>

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 23:30:38 +0100, Chris <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk>
wrote:

You can print a larger version of it on a consumer 3d printer.
>
>Chris
>>

[Chris]

Probably, but what sort of design life would that give you ?. My guess
is not very long, since these machines were stretching mechanical eng
state of the art when new and were not that reliable either. A lot of
heat treated steel parts, precision bearings and fine adjustment
tolerances etc.

Played around with Teletypes and Flexowriters years ago and both could
be a real pain to clean, adjust and keep running...

Chris


Chris

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 00:56:21 +0100, Chris <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk>

A Curta isn't that kind of machine. It doesn't "run". You set a
number, turn the crank, set another number, turn the crank.

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, September 20, 2020 at 2:21:00 PM UTC-6, Jason Evans wrote:
> People are paying $2000+ for them on ebay so I don't see how
> they wouldn't be profitable.

People pay $2,000 for the original CURTA because it is a rare antique and collector's
item. If you made new ones, since they're not as convenient to use for calculation as
a $2 pocket calculator you can buy at a dollar store, you would have to set your price
below that in order for them to sell.

Not counting making _forgeries_, of course, which is a criminal enterprise.

But then, another poster has already explained this.

Still, I could be harsh. If you could manufacture quality replicas of the CURTA, the
reason that the originals are in demand as collector's items is because they're cute
and unusual - a complete mechanical adding machine with multiplication and division
that fits in your hand.

So they have indeed some appeal beyond pure rarity as a collectable, and pure utility
as a calculation device. So some people unable to afford the original would no doubt
be interested in a reproduction as a conversation piece. But how much could you charge
for it? My guess would be not more than $200.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

That is a little more than the originals sold for, not corrected for
inflation.

[maus]

Curta's are cute, but had a sorta bad reputation, having been made
by slave labour in the early days. I have enough old tackle resuing in
drawers.

[Niklas Karlsson]

Sure, but that doesn't make it immune to jams and other mechanical
problems.

It'd still be interesting to 3D-print and assemble one, mind you.
Perhaps if I find myself in possession of copious free time, I just
might.

Niklas
--
I suppose one corollary of what you're onto here is that we can let the
pr0n industry sponsor AI development and not have to worry about finding
more traditional sources of research funding.
-- AdB

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 2:34:25 AM UTC-6, maus wrote:

> Curta's are cute, but had a sorta bad reputation, having been made
> by slave labour in the early days. I have enough old tackle resuing in
> drawers.

Huh?

Curtas weren't made until after the war, and their inventor was a Holocaust survivor.

Unless you mean slave labor under Communist regimes in Eastern Europe?

John Savard

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-09-21, maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:
> Curta's are cute, but had a sorta bad reputation, having been made
> by slave labour in the early days. I have enough old tackle resuing in
> drawers.

From looking at Wikipedia's pictures, it actually looks like something
designed just recently. Not really in line with what I imagined the
fashion of the time being.

Now I'm tempted to get one. (Though I probably would have been even if
it did look like an artifact from the mid-20th century.)

Niklas
--
The bloody handle on the back of an E450 isn't until you try to use it as
such, then it becomes less of a handle and more bloody.
-- Gary Barnes in asr

[Chris]

Good luck with that. The problem with duplication such machines is
not just about tooling cost, but also the labour intensive assembly
and end of line adjustments. My guess: Not much change out of $10K
to build and sell, probably a lot more for low volume...

Chris

[JimP]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 00:56:21 +0100, Chris <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk>

If someone wanted to spend the money, there are 3D printers that can
print metal parts with high precision. But the word 'cheap' is not in
their description.

--
Jim

[J. Clarke]

I was not aware that prisoners at Buchenwald had access to slave
labor. Tell us more.

[Elliott Roper]

The explanation is in the link to the Wikipedia article you snipped
_________________________
While I was imprisoned inside Buchenwald I had, after a few days, told the
[people] in the work production scheduling department of my ideas. The head of
the department, Mr. Munich said, 'See, Herzstark, I understand you've been
working on a new thing, a small calculating machine. Do you know, I can give
you a tip. We will allow you to make and draw everything. If it is really
worth something, then we will give it to the Führer as a present after we win
the war. Then, surely, you will be made an Aryan.' For me, that was the first
time I thought to myself, my God, if you do this, you can extend your life.
And then and there I started to draw the CURTA, the way I had imagined it.
__________________________
The snipped link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta
--
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

[Joe Pfeiffer]

So the actual inventor was slave labor when he developed it, and then of
course profited from it when it actually went into production after the
war. Sounds to me like that would give it an extra good reputation...

[Carlos E.R.]

I don't see what the issue is. He saw a way to survive and took it. The
slave labour was the inventor himself, and the manufacturing happened
after the war... The slavers did not benefit.

> So the actual inventor was slave labor when he developed it, and then of
> course profited from it when it actually went into production after the
> war. Sounds to me like that would give it an extra good reputation...

Indeed.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 19:00:56 GMT, Elliott Roper <nos...@yrl.co.uk>

There is no "snipped link". And all that you have done with your
quotation is show that the person who invented it and started the
company that produced it was at one time _himself_ slave labor.

[Joy Beeson]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 20:20:58 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans
<jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta

I think there'd be a market for a peppermill that looks like that.

--
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/
The above message is a Usenet post.

[Elliott Roper]

On 21 Sep 2020 at 23:17:24 BST, "J. Clarke" <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There is no "snipped link". And all that you have done with your
> quotation is show that the person who invented it and started the
> company that produced it was at one time _himself_ slave labor.

Sorry about the not-snipped link.

I'm as guilty as you are for not reading carefully.
I was responding to your "tell us more" about the slave labour.

From the linked article, one reads that Curt Herzstark had the choice of being
creative with his captors or being gassed. A shrewd cookie and master
negotiator, but not an employer of slave labour.

An earlier paragraph in the same article might leave open the possibility that
the Nazis used slave labour at his factory between 1938 and 1943 when they
forced him to stop work on the calculator to work on precision instruments for
their army. It reads as though he and his workforce were given the same
'encouragement' as he was later offered in Buchenwald. But to be pedantic,
that was explicitly not for building calculators.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

If I'm following the attributions correctly, Elliot posted the quote,
which effectively refutes (and appears to have been intended to refute)
maus's claim that early Curtas were made with slave labor.

[maus]

From someone telling me years ago, maybe incorrecty, that first ones
were made in the German camps,

[maus]

On 2020-09-21, J Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

See EarlierReply, probably incorrect, but the sort of thing that would
one lose interest.

[JimP]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:58:20 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 20:20:58 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans
><jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta
>
>I think there'd be a market for a peppermill that looks like that.

Looking at the photo, I have seen some of these on various Antique
Road Shows over the years. I don't remember what evaluation they
received.

--
Jim

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Mon, 2020-09-21, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 20:20:58 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans
> <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta
>
> I think there'd be a market for a peppermill that looks like that.

Perhaps you can use the originals that way. Someone who owns one
should try.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[J. Clarke]

On 22 Sep 2020 19:20:34 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

>On Mon, 2020-09-21, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 20:20:58 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans
>> <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:
>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta
>>
>> I think there'd be a market for a peppermill that looks like that.
>
>Perhaps you can use the originals that way. Someone who owns one
>should try.

Or sell it for 2000 bucks and buy a peppermill.

[Dave Garland]

Even assembling them is apparently pretty difficult without
specialized tools. There's an exhaustive website at
http://www.vcalc.net/ with info on them, including some factory drawings.

I can't think of any other high-tech product associated with the
country of Liechtenstein.

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 4:12:13 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:

> Even assembling them is apparently pretty difficult without
> specialized tools. There's an exhaustive website at
> http://www.vcalc.net/ with info on them, including some factory drawings.

> I can't think of any other high-tech product associated with the
> country of Liechtenstein.

A mechanical calculator, however exquisitely crafted, is not necessarily high-tech
by the usual definition.

However, there definitely are, or at least were, high-tech products being made by
one Liechtenstein company. Ah, maybe not. Crypto AG, a Swiss company, was
owned by a holding company in Liechtenstein, and Gretag was also Swiss.

John Savard

[David Lesher]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:


>However, there definitely are, or at least were, high-tech products being made by
>one Liechtenstein company. Ah, maybe not. Crypto AG, a Swiss company, was
>owned by a holding company in Liechtenstein, and Gretag was also Swiss.

That holding company was owned by the CIA & BND.

--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[John Levine]

In article <886802f4-f047-4d80...@googlegroups.com>,

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> I can't think of any other high-tech product associated with the
>> country of Liechtenstein.

Hilti makes a wide range of sophisticated construction and engineering equipment.

--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

[Chris]

On 09/23/20 19:53, John Levine wrote:
> In article<886802f4-f047-4d80...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> I can't think of any other high-tech product associated with the
>>> country of Liechtenstein.
>
> Hilti makes a wide range of sophisticated construction and engineering equipment.
>

Quite well known for nail guns, fwir...

[Quadibloc]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 12:53:04 PM UTC-6, John Levine wrote:

> Hilti makes a wide range of sophisticated construction and engineering equipment.

And, like Topre (!) you will sometimes see their name on those rubber mudguards
behind the wheels of trucks... ah, yes, the good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.

John Savard

[Dave Garland]

On 9/23/2020 1:53 PM, John Levine wrote:
> In article <886802f4-f047-4d80...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> I can't think of any other high-tech product associated with the
>>> country of Liechtenstein.
>
> Hilti makes a wide range of sophisticated construction and engineering equipment.
>

Ah, I know the name, thanks. Didn't realize they were
Liechtensteinian, thought Swiss or German, not widely used in the
States. Was thinking the country's principal product was bankers.

[Carlos E.R.]

Once I ran over a Hilti drill that the man forgot on the asphalt. I
think it survived.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Chris]

Quite likely, designed for everyday constant use, abuse, building sites
etc, by those with little mechanical sensitivity and who don't care.

If, like me, you sometimes buy power tools s/h at machinery sales or
car boots, you need to watch out for spares availability. No spare
parts for some older Hilti, whereas I can still get parts for a Bosch
power drill I bought new in 1983. Makita are good too...

Chris

[Peter Flass]

For those prices you can afford two - one foe spares.

--
Pete

[Mike Spencer]

Chris <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> writes:

> If, like me, you sometimes buy power tools s/h at machinery sales or
> car boots, you need to watch out for spares availability. No spare
> parts for some older Hilti, whereas I can still get parts for a Bosch
> power drill I bought new in 1983. Makita are good too...

Late 1970s, went in person to Halifax Black & Decker depot for an
essential replacement part for my 1925 1/2" electric drill.

The Guy started at the left of a long shelf with the microfiche
(remember them? Before ubiquitous computers?) binders, then the
ordinary ring binders, then the fat bound catalogs, thin bound
catalogs. Very last item on the shelf, greasy, tattered, abour 20
pages, located the part number. Brush holder, 3 on hand, I bought 2.

Circa 2003, I phoned B&D about a bearing for a B&D angle grinder
bought new in 1977. Young-sounding guy on phone: "Wow! That's an
*old* one." (They had other parts but not the bearing which I had to
get from a seals-&-bearing house.)

ObAFC: I recall seeing ads for Curtas in SciAm when I was in high
school, late 50s. Didn't grasp, at the time, what a remarkable
thing it was.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 17:44:40 +0100, Chris <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk>
wrote:

I finally had to retire my Bosch saber saw that I bought in 1979. A
piece broke that I could not get from Bosch USA--Bosch UK had it in
stock but wouldn't ship it to me.

[Chris]

On 09/24/20 20:46, J. Clarke wrote:

>
> I finally had to retire my Bosch saber saw that I bought in 1979. A
> piece broke that I could not get from Bosch USA--Bosch UK had it in
> stock but wouldn't ship it to me.
>

Should have asked, someone here would have handled it. Have a
Makita jigsaw, again 20+ years old, but no noticeable wear on
the commutator and gets a strip down every few years for a clean
and repack grease in the mechanics. Ball or needle roller bearing
throughout, just like the Bosch drill...

Chris

[Joe Pfeiffer]

40 years ago when my then-girlfriend (now wife) were doing Time Speed
Distance rallies, I really wanted a Curta but couldn't afford it. Now I
don't have the application, but would still really like one -- and still
can't afford it...

[Scott Lurndal]

Let me guess - the little pot-metal 'shoe' that controls the
side-to-side tilt of the base?

[Quadibloc]

I was doing a web search for material related to the Curta calculators, and
I found that there are two fan sites on the web by individual Curta collectors, one in Armenia.

https://www.jaapsch.net/mechcalc/curta.htm

A brochure on how to perform different calculations with the Curta noted that
a table was available to let you calculate easily cube roots accurate to five places
with it. I found a similar table for _square_ roots on both of the fan sites... but not
the table for cube roots!

In any event, on another page about the Curta calculator which was illustrated with
many photos, including two of the 3-D printed replica discussed here... there was
a comment below which I found hilarious.

https://newatlas.com/curta-death-camp-calculator/45506/

In the comment, it was stated that the slide rule was rendered obsolete... when
Hewlett-Packard released the HP 41CX programmable calculator!

Why did I find that a side-splitting howler?

It certainly is true that pocket calculators made the slide rule obsolete. After the
HP 35 scientific calculator came out, the writing was on the wall for the slide
rule - and when basic, non-programmable scientific calculators started becoming
available for prices less than $30, then indeed it no longer made sense to buy a
new slide rule.

The HP 41CX, however, came out much later than that, and was quite expensive - it
was a programmable calculator which could also display words, as it used a 14-segment
liquid crystal display while still having a LED calculator form factor instead of being
completely flat like typical LED calculators. It came out too late, and was too expensive,
to have had any effect whatever on the fate of the slide rule!

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:23:40 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> I was doing a web search for material related to the Curta calculators, and
> I found that there are two fan sites on the web by individual Curta collectors, one in Armenia.
>
> https://www.jaapsch.net/mechcalc/curta.htm

http://www.curta.com.ar/curta/code/home.html

...oops, I meant to give links for _both_ of them.

John Savard

[David Lesher]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:



>It certainly is true that pocket calculators made the slide rule obsolete. After the
>HP 35 scientific calculator came out, the writing was on the wall for the slide
>rule - and when basic, non-programmable scientific calculators started becoming
>available for prices less than $30, then indeed it no longer made sense to buy a
>new slide rule.

>The HP 41CX, however, came out much later than that, and was quite expensive - it
>was a programmable calculator which could also display words, as it used a 14-segment
>liquid crystal display while still having a LED calculator form factor instead of being
>completely flat like typical LED calculators. It came out too late, and was too expensive,
>to have had any effect whatever on the fate of the slide rule!

I own both a HP35 and a 41CV and 41CX. Great meachines.