Jargon file, ALTMODE evolution, PDP-10 (was Re: A problem on OPR; what keyboard, Tim?)
Tim Shoppa
>
> In article <3A737656...@mail.bcpl.net>,
> Ken McMonigal <kmcm...@mail.bcpl.net> wrote:
> >> >3) If you are using a PC to do the emulation, have you considered
> >> > getting a cheap replacement keyboard & taping handwritten caps
> >> > over any keys that differ from what that -10 terminal has?
>
> Ken, the PDP-10 does not have a built-in terminal.
> It does not use keyboard scan codes or anything like that.
> The console terminal can be an ASR-33, LA-36, LA-120, VT100, etc.
> Anything that can generate 7-bit ASCII characters.
>
> Therefore the location of individual keys on the keyboard are totally
> irrelevant.
It's of course up to the software(s) involved, but I for many years
thought that <ALTMODE> was the same as <ESCAPE>. It ain't always
so! (Even though the Jargon file says that <ALTMODE> is ascii code
033 base-8, a far more popular definition in the early days was 0175
base-8, and there are a few things that called <ALTMODE> 0176) Looking
through the PDP-10 freeware at
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/
I find that there are 41 cases of ALTMODE and 175 appearing on the
same source code (*.MAC) line, and 26 cases of ALTMODE and 33
appearing on the same line.
Tim.
Eric Fischer
> It's of course up to the software(s) involved, but I for many years
> thought that <ALTMODE> was the same as <ESCAPE>. It ain't always
> so! (Even though the Jargon file says that <ALTMODE> is ascii code
> 033 base-8, a far more popular definition in the early days was 0175
> base-8, and there are a few things that called <ALTMODE> 0176)
The explanation for 0176 is a simple one: that was the code for ESC
in ASCII-1963. 0175 is more mysterious, since that was the "unassigned
control" reserved for future standardization, so it's not clear why
Teletype would ever have shipped a keyboard that generated it. The only
clue I have is a January, 1963 description of the yet-to-be-released
Teletype Model 33, which describes the character as follows:
ALT MODE...... Provided for a future means of communicator escape -
primarily to be utilized as a switching function and/or
for set expansion.
Does anyone know whether the TWX network actually used this character
for switching purposes?
I can't find the reference right now, but as I understand it TOPS-10
would translate any character 033 received from a terminal into 0175,
since that's what software was expecting to see.
eric
Ken McMonigal
2) As well, I find Tim's comments enlightening.
I would like to now include Bob's post in this thread, seen elsewhere.
Subject: Re: A problem on OPR; what keyboard, Tim? Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 02:13:51 GMT From: hg/jb Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 Sorry if this is late or dumb, I happen to have a vt100 keyboard right here - no vt100, just the keyboard. The keys are layed out SU b1b2b3swap esc 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = \ push break Q W E R T Y U I O P [ ] rco <--rco means rub out or rub car out, ctl caps A S D F G H J K L ; return rwo <--rub word out ns shift Z C V B N M , . / shift \ space bar are keys that are missing. I don't know if this helps anyone. bob
In the use of a modified keyboard that I described (IBM 101-key
modified to
look like a VT-100 or whatever), I was simply trying to think outside
the box
for a second & apply a design/debugging technique that I have used
in the past.
Apparently it was not helpful, so I will drop it.
I have lurked on this newsgroup for some time now & found
several ongoing projects
that were of interest including the -10 fpga, the emulator, & Mr.
Seagraves' revival
of his DEC system. I wish everyone good luck on them as my experiences
with the
-10, little as they may have been, were very enjoyable.
What I did not try to do was to offend anyone. However, I feel that
my
rather benign comments/suggestions on the keyboard item were responded
to
rather harshly by one poster. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.
God bless America!
Let's all shake hands & make up. OK?
When the emulator is up & running, obviously everyone is free to
use whatever hardware
& software configuration that they wish, as long as they meet the
constraints of the
system.
Peace & Love,
Ken
Alan H. Martin
>
> Tim Shoppa <sho...@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>
> > It's of course up to the software(s) involved, but I for many years
> > thought that <ALTMODE> was the same as <ESCAPE>. It ain't always
> > so! (Even though the Jargon file says that <ALTMODE> is ascii code
> > 033 base-8, a far more popular definition in the early days was 0175
> > base-8, and there are a few things that called <ALTMODE> 0176)
>
> The explanation for 0176 is a simple one: that was the code for ESC
> in ASCII-1963. 0175 is more mysterious, since that was the "unassigned
> control" reserved for future standardization, so it's not clear why
> Teletype would ever have shipped a keyboard that generated it. The only
> clue I have is a January, 1963 description of the yet-to-be-released
> Teletype Model 33, which describes the character as follows:
>
> ALT MODE...... Provided for a future means of communicator escape -
> primarily to be utilized as a switching function and/or
> for set expansion.
From DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Handbook, Third Edition,
DECsystem-10 System Reference Manual, Second Edition, December 1971,
Third Printing, Appendix B (Input/Output Codes), pp. B2, B5:
"
TELETYPE CODE
Even 7-Bit Character Remarks
Parity Octal
Bit Code
...
0 033 ESC Escape, prefix. This code is generated
by control shift K on Model 35, but the
Monitor translates it to 175.
...
0 175 } This code generated by ALT MODE on
Model 35.
1 176 ~ This code generated by ESC key
(if present) on Model 35, but the
Monitor translates it to 175.
...
"
The above table is telling in that it indicts the TTY35, but misleading
because the companion DECsystem-10 Monitor Calls manual for 5.06
was already favoring 033; the following functionality was the very
newest terminal line attribute (.TOALT). From TOPS-10 SCNSER.MAC
of 28-Jun-88:
"
LPLALT==:040000 ;ALTMODE CONV. (1:CONVERT 175,176 TO 033)
"
By then, everything expected ESC/ALT/PRE to be 033, and as shipped,
TOPS-10 would translate 175 and 176 to 033 for TTY33's and TTY35's
by default, and not touch the codes for other terminals by default.
> I can't find the reference right now, but as I understand it TOPS-10
> would translate any character 033 received from a terminal into 0175,
> since that's what software was expecting to see.
Not for ages. The DECsystem-10 System Reference Manual, Third Edition,
Aug-74 says in the analogous table:
"
ASCII CODE
Even
Parity 7-Bit 7-Bit Character (10) Remarks
Bit Decimal Octal
...
0 027 033 ESC Escape, prefix. This code is generated
by control shift K on Model 35, but the
Monitor translates it to 175.
...
0 125 175 }(13) This code generated by ALT MODE on
Model 35.
1 126 176 ~(14) This code generated by ESC key
(if present) on Model 35, but the
Monitor translates it to 175.
...
10 Codes 140-173 first defined in 1965. For a full ASCII
character set the Monitor accepts codes 140-176 as lower case. For a
character set that lacks lower case, the Monitor translates input codes
140-176 into the corresponding upper case codes (100-134) and translates
both 175 and 176 into 033, escape. Early versions of the Monitor used
175 as the escape code and translated both 176 and 033 to it.
...
13 Unassigned control character (usually ALT MODE) before 1965.
Code generated by ALT MODE key on most DEC units.
14 Control character ESC before 1965; | 1964-67, but never on DEC
units. Code generated by ESC key on some DEC units.
"
/AHM
--
Alan Howard Martin AMa...@MA.UltraNet.Com
Don Stokes
>By then, everything expected ESC/ALT/PRE to be 033, and as shipped,
>TOPS-10 would translate 175 and 176 to 033 for TTY33's and TTY35's
>by default, and not touch the codes for other terminals by default.
33s just have an ESC key (about where the TAB key is on a modern
keyboard), unless there were models with different keyboards to the ones
I've seen.
That said, it since ESC is a separate key with no shifts, it wouldn't
have been difficult to have had it generate a different character. The
keyboard does after all generate the full 8 bits (7+parity).
-- don
Joe Smith
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I)
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Please don't post in HTML.
In Netscape, go to Edit->Preferences->Mail&News->Formatting and
select "Use the plain text editor to compose messages."
In article <3A7489A7...@mail.bcpl.net>,
Ken McMonigal <kmcm...@mail.bcpl.net> wrote:
>
>I would like to now include Bob's post in this thread, seen elsewhere.
>
>> SU b1b2b3swap
>> esc 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = \ push break
>> Q W E R T Y U I O P [ ] rco <--rco means rub out or rub car out,
>> ctl caps A S D F G H J K L ; return rwo <--rub word out
>> ns shift Z C V B N M , . / shift \
>> space bar
>> are keys that are missing.
The above looks more like a modified VT100 keyboard, one set up for
WPS-8 or some other Word Processing System.
Differences between the above and a real VT100 keyboard:
Top row is SET-UP, indicator lights, cursor-Up, cursor-Down,
cursor-Left, cursor-Right, gap to numeric keypad, PF1, PF2, PF3, PF4.
On 2nd row, to the right of "0" (zero) is hyphen/underscore,
equal/plus, backtick/tilde, BACKSPACE, BREAK, gap, 7, 8, 9, minus.
3rd row starts with a TAB and ends with [/{, ]/}, top 1/3rd of RETURN
and DELETE. Then a gap to numeric 4, 5, 6 and comma.
On the 4th row, after "L" is ;/:, '/", 2/3rds of RETURN, backslash/vert-bar,
gap, 1, 2, 3 and top half of ENTER.
The 5th row ends witn comma/<, period/>, slash/question, double wide shift
LINEFEED, gap, double wide 0, period and bottom half of ENTER.
SETUP (4 LEDs) CU CD CL CR P1 P2 P3 P4
ESC 1/! 2/@ 3/# 4/$ 5/% 6/^ 7/& 8/* 9/( 0/) -/_ =/+ `/~ BS BRK 7 8 9 -
TAB q/Q w/W e/E r/R t/T y/Y u/U i/I o/O p/P [/{ ]/} DEL 4 5 6 ,
CTL CL a/A s/S d/D f/F g/G h/H i/I j/J k/K l/L ;/: '/" RETURN /\| 1 2 3 E
NS SHIFT z/Z x/X c/C v/V b/B n/N m/M ,/< ./> //? SHIFT LINEFEED 00 . E
-Joe
--
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages.
Ken McMonigal
> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
>> Joe Smith wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <3A737656...@mail.bcpl.net>,
>> > Ken McMonigal <kmcm...@mail.bcpl.net> wrote:
>
I didn't pay enough attention to the groups in the header. I only
intended
it to be in the thread for pdp-10.
jmfb...@aol.com
I always got the two confused when speaking. Whenever I was
editing, the word in my head (to keep the tempo) was altmode.
Confused the hell out of TW and JMF whenever I edited out loud.
I didn't care what it was called as long as the key didn't move
from the upper left hand corner. Don't ask me about today's
keyboard layout. My fingers have almost learned where to type
until I try to access newsgroups on my laptop. <grr>
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
jchausler
Don Stokes wrote:
> Alan H. Martin <AMa...@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >By then, everything expected ESC/ALT/PRE to be 033, and as shipped,
> >TOPS-10 would translate 175 and 176 to 033 for TTY33's and TTY35's
> >by default, and not touch the codes for other terminals by default.
>
> 33s just have an ESC key (about where the TAB key is on a modern
> keyboard), unless there were models with different keyboards to the ones
> I've seen.
Both my 33's have that keycap printed with ALT MODE, but all 33's I've
ever dealt with over 35 years, whether that key was marked as ALT
MODE or ESC, have generated the 033 code for that key.
> That said, it since ESC is a separate key with no shifts, it wouldn't
> have been difficult to have had it generate a different character. The
> keyboard does after all generate the full 8 bits (7+parity).
I could be seriously wrong on this but I've never seen a 33 keyboard
that didn't generate the same set of characters per physical key location
regardless of how the keycaps were marked and I've seen numerous
different markings (4 or 5 anyway). This isn't to say that something
special wasn't built, just that I believe it would have been rare.
Chris
AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE
$$
Alan H. Martin
>
> Don Stokes wrote:
>
> > Alan H. Martin <AMa...@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> > >By then, everything expected ESC/ALT/PRE to be 033, and as shipped,
> > >TOPS-10 would translate 175 and 176 to 033 for TTY33's and TTY35's
> > >by default, and not touch the codes for other terminals by default.
> >
> > 33s just have an ESC key (about where the TAB key is on a modern
> > keyboard), unless there were models with different keyboards to the ones
> > I've seen.
>
> Both my 33's have that keycap printed with ALT MODE, but all 33's I've
> ever dealt with over 35 years, whether that key was marked as ALT
> MODE or ESC, have generated the 033 code for that key.
(I've never knowingly used a model 33 that was generating 175 or 176
from the ESC/ALT MODE/PREFIX key. Of course, I may only have used
late model 33's).
> > That said, it since ESC is a separate key with no shifts, it wouldn't
> > have been difficult to have had it generate a different character. The
> > keyboard does after all generate the full 8 bits (7+parity).
>
> I could be seriously wrong on this but I've never seen a 33 keyboard
> that didn't generate the same set of characters per physical key location
> regardless of how the keycaps were marked and I've seen numerous
> different markings (4 or 5 anyway). This isn't to say that something
> special wasn't built, just that I believe it would have been rare.
Oops, I phrased badly. Even TOPS-10 6.03 (30-Sep-78) didn't keep track
of terminal types (TTY33, LA36, VT100, ...) on a per-line basis.
However, by the time of 7.03 (circa Aug-88), saying ``.TTY TYPE TTY33''
(or TTY35), would do an implicit ``.TTY ALTMODE''. That normally would
translate 175 and 176 to 033, but if the monitor was built using of
contrarian setting of STDALT==175, then 033 (and 176) would get
translated to 175.
I can believe it was a mistake for the .TTY TYPE TTY33 attribute table
entry to imply .TTY ALTMODE.
John Wilson
jchausler <jcha...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Both my 33's have that keycap printed with ALT MODE, but all 33's I've
>ever dealt with over 35 years, whether that key was marked as ALT
>MODE or ESC, have generated the 033 code for that key.
My vague recollection (from the ten or so 33s I've had), is that if you
want 33 (ESC), you have to type CTRL-SHIFT-K, the ALT MODE key sends a
curly brace or whatever.
John Wilson
D Bit
jchausler
John Wilson wrote:
I stand corrected, but confused. To settle this, I decided to go to
the source and so I just crawled into my storage area and tossed
all the junk off the top of the ASR33, turned it on, turned on the
tape punch and hit the ALT MODE key a number of times. After
a fuzzy start (it hasn't been powered in a couple years at least),
what I got punched on the tape was 175 (base 8) (actually 375 as
the parity bit is always on). Hmmm..... My late 70's semi home
brew 64x16 video terminal with the George Risk TTY style keyboard
has that key labeled ESC and it generates ESC. Maybe that's
what I was thinking of?????
Ken McMonigal
Well, this is great! I appreciate your effort. It brings back the
good old days.
No need for oiling, no sparks?
How about recording the typing of a few lines of text with
punching & posting it somewhere as an mp3 file? (ha-ha, just kidding)
But I do think it helps to refresh memories as it applies
to certain projects.
Thanks again!