Old days

[maus]

Good old days. I think that the best time was the arrival of the Amiga.
I remember buying a modem, a USRobotics one, with a large manual about
the Hayes command set, including how to turn on a handset phone
remotely. Fun.

Recently, I read that there is a suspicion that some tracing apps will
allow that as well.

[JimP]

iPhone can be turned on by Apple and the US government. The user wont
notice. That is from several IT documents I read years ago.

Supposedly other cell phones aren't that vulnerable.

--
Jim

[Chris]

Dunno, but you could just turn it off and put it in a metal box if
it bothers. Don't use mobile a lot here and often forget to take it
out with me, but bought a Blackberry Z10 on Ebay for less than $20.
Well obsolete model, but is G4 capable and works fine. Good phone,
maps/gps, 8m pixel camera, surprisingly good and does everything I
need from a phone. Everything else still done on a desktop or
laptop here.

Doesn't need to be too complicated...

Chris

[J. Clarke]

On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 17:46:26 +0100, Chris <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk>
wrote:

Just wrap it in foil.

However the notion that phone that is off can be turned on remotely is
a half-truth and mostly FUD. It according to everything that I have
been able to find requires that someone with the phone physically in
their possession apply a hack to it first to enable the process, and
even then it only works by preventing the phone from powering down in
the first place.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-09-23, JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 23 Sep 2020 10:58:15 GMT, maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>
>> Good old days. I think that the best time was the arrival of the Amiga.

That was the one computer I really got excited about.
Too bad Commode-Door management worked so hard to run it into the ground.

"If Commodore sold sushi, they would market it as 'cold dead fish'."

>> I remember buying a modem, a USRobotics one, with a large manual about
>> the Hayes command set, including how to turn on a handset phone
>> remotely. Fun.
>>
>> Recently, I read that there is a suspicion that some tracing apps will
>> allow that as well.
>
> iPhone can be turned on by Apple and the US government. The user wont
> notice. That is from several IT documents I read years ago.
>
> Supposedly other cell phones aren't that vulnerable.

Like my LG A-341 flip phone, for instance... :-)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

[Carlos E.R.]

I don't see how a phone may be turned on remotely unless it leaves a
receiver on with some logic support to detect the right signal. And that
uses battery, of course. Maybe if the radio turns on intermittently to
listen for a few seconds and then goes to sleep for some minutes.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Peter Flass]

I remember when “wake on LAN” was a thing for PCs that did this.

--
Pete

[Grant Taylor]

On 9/23/20 12:36 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> I remember when “wake on LAN” was a thing for PCs that did this.

ATX PCs never actually turn off. There is always some power draw and a
very low level thing runs, including the ability to auto-power the
machine on based on a timer / alarm clock (built into many systems).

NICs that supported WoL were either had an add-on cable to connect the
card to a WoL connector or had traces for WoL for onboard chipsets.

The NICs watched for a very specific Ethernet frame addressed to their
MAC address. When that very specific Ethernet frame was seen, they
would tell the PC to power on, much like as if the power button had been
pressed and released.

Wake on LAN is a very specific technology and there is no subterfuge
with it. It is fairly well documented. Further, as I understand it, it
only worked on the local LAN (no pun intended) and did not work across a
router.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

[Scott Lurndal]

Which mean that part of the chip (Ethernet controller) needs to be on
an always-on power domain and also it needed to power on the MAC and PHY so
it could monitor packets.

Works fine when you're plugged into the wall. Uses battery otherwise.

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Wed, 2020-09-23, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2020-09-23, JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 23 Sep 2020 10:58:15 GMT, maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Good old days. I think that the best time was the arrival of the Amiga.
>
> That was the one computer I really got excited about.
> Too bad Commode-Door management worked so hard to run it into the ground.

I was, and am, more bitter about how the media and the mainstream
pretended the Amiga didn't exist. All kids with a computer interest
(in .se and probably Europe in general) had or wanted an Amiga, but
you never, ever read about it in the papers.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[Carlos E.R.]

For this to work the network card remains powered and listening to the
right packet on the cable. And then it needs a line to the power supply
to bring it up.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[JimP]

On 23 Sep 2020 20:08:08 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

>On Wed, 2020-09-23, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2020-09-23, JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23 Sep 2020 10:58:15 GMT, maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good old days. I think that the best time was the arrival of the Amiga.
>>
>> That was the one computer I really got excited about.
>> Too bad Commode-Door management worked so hard to run it into the ground.
>
>I was, and am, more bitter about how the media and the mainstream
>pretended the Amiga didn't exist. All kids with a computer interest
>(in .se and probably Europe in general) had or wanted an Amiga, but
>you never, ever read about it in the papers.

I don't think CBM advertised very much. And when they did one bowl
game, I feel it was a waste of money.

--
Jim

[Dallas]

Good old days for me was when I could program straight to the "metal".

MS-DOS days. When we needed an OS back then, we wrote one ourselves. Seriously!

[Quadibloc]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 2:08:10 PM UTC-6, Jorgen Grahn wrote:

> I was, and am, more bitter about how the media and the mainstream
> pretended the Amiga didn't exist. All kids with a computer interest
> (in .se and probably Europe in general) had or wanted an Amiga, but
> you never, ever read about it in the papers.

Interesting. I know that the computer-related media paid a lot of attention
to the Amiga, particularly when the Amiga 1000 originally came out.

However, by the time of the Amiga 500... it was 1987. The Amiga - and the
Atari ST - were cheap plastic home computers for people who couldn't afford
a 'real' computer: a PC compatible or a Macintosh.

The Macintosh, and the IBM PC AT (the 80286 one) date from 1984.

The Sanyo MBC-555 dates from 1982; it was an affordable not-quite-compatible
that only briefly preceded the arrival of inexpensive PC clones.

So, while one would have expected even the mainstream media to have taken notice
of the groundbreaking Amiga 1000 when it came out, despite the fact that even by 1987
the PC and Mac hadn't caught up with its graphics and sound capabilities, the "mainstream
media" was quite correctly paying attention to the things that were important - the computers
that you could get software for, the computers that were being used in offices and small
businesses everywhere.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

It still is if the functionality is turned on on the PC. Any modern
PC goes into a soft-off state where the power button on the front
panel instead of physically switching the mains or battery power
instead triggers a watchdog circuit that starts the power-up process.

The wake-on-lan functionality is generally switchable by a BIOS
setting or a jumper depending on the particular system.

It's actually useful in a corporate environment where somebody can
switch a machine on at 2AM to install updates or whatever. I can say
with some confidence however that my employer keeps it turned off and
may have the routers set to block the "magic packet" as well. I say
this because if somebody inadvertently shuts off a machine in the
office while working remotely, somebody has to physically go press the
power button to get it back up.

This does _not_ work however if the power is physically interrupted
(any machine that I build has a power switch on the power supply that
interrupts the mains power in addition to the soft-power button on the
front).

[J. Clarke]

And not always even then. I've played with it on my own networks and
found it to be frustratingly chancy.

[J. Clarke]

Fortunately for a lot of us Joe Straczynski didn't get the memo. And
thus we have Babylon 5.

[Andy Burns]

Grant Taylor wrote:

> Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> I remember when “wake on LAN” was a thing for PCs that did this.
>

> as I understand it, it only worked on the local LAN (no pun intended)
> and did not work across a router.

It can work through routers, if you enable subnet directed broadcasts
and send the magic packet to the remote subnet's broadcast address
rather than the PC's IP address.

That lets you wake up a whole fleet of machines at different sites to
patch them overnight ...

[maus]

To be safe, one should unplug the computer.

I used assemble my computers, (bought a Lenovo last time) and one way
of checking the power supply was to see if the Ethernet light was on or
off, EVEN before it was switched on (fan working)

My original message was about the hayes commands, which are no longer
relevent. I remember setting up the amiga in a friends house, going to
park in front of an office, and watching the activity when the Amiga
rang the individual phones in the office, and security people there
tried to find out what was happening. Daft, of course.

there was a local BBS, based on an amiga, which was very popular, until
the owner bought a PC, and the listings changed from freeware to
shareware. Did anyone ever use a PC for fun?

[Scott Lurndal]

Most corporate servers have a BMC that's always on to handle
those sorts of tasks; I haven't seen Wake-on-Lan used in a corporate
environment for a decade or more.

[Bob Eager]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 13:39:00 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Most corporate servers have a BMC that's always on to handle those sorts
> of tasks; I haven't seen Wake-on-Lan used in a corporate environment
> for a decade or more.

I just use iLO here.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

[Grant Taylor]

On 9/24/20 1:39 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> It can work through routers, if you enable subnet directed broadcasts
> and send the magic packet to the remote subnet's broadcast address
> rather than the PC's IP address.
>
> That lets you wake up a whole fleet of machines at different sites to
> patch them overnight ...

Hum.

That's contrary to my understanding. I'll have to check that out.

Thank you for the correction Andy.

[Grant Taylor]

On 9/24/20 2:10 AM, maus wrote:
> My original message was about the hayes commands, which are no longer
> relevent.

Hayes commands are still used every day. They've even been extended to
do more and control more. They are just hidden away and virtually never
used directly by humans any more. Many control codes for cell phones
(as modems) now use ~> abuse the idea started by Hayes commands.

A few (< 5) years ago I helped some co-workers use Hayes commands to add
""phone numbers to their cell phone address book to make dialing into
company conference bridges easier. Good old tel:<number>,<option>,<pass
code>...

[Scott Lurndal]

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 13:39:00 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> Most corporate servers have a BMC that's always on to handle those sorts
>> of tasks; I haven't seen Wake-on-Lan used in a corporate environment
>> for a decade or more.
>
>I just use iLO here.

Which is basically a BMC by another name :-)

>

[Andy Burns]

Grant Taylor wrote:

> maus wrote:
>
>> My original message was about the hayes commands, which are no longer
>> relevent.
>
> Hayes commands are still used every day.

4G USB dongles often use ATD*99***1# to "dial" a data connection

[JimP]

I used one, and still do, for fun. I make maps using Campaign
Cartographer, 2 then 3, and now 3 Plus. I also play Everquest MMO by
Daybreak Games.

--
Jim

[Bob Eager]

My point was more about the fact that I use it at home, but yes.

[maus]

Tell us more, I thought that hayes commands were for modems, rather
than routers, but I suppose that the line of descent would involved some
obscure areas, like the now unused subway systems in many cities.

[maus]

I should have excepted genuine games.

[Peter Flass]

Bordel Militaire de Campagne?

--
Pete

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-09-23, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> So, while one would have expected even the mainstream media to have
> taken notice of the groundbreaking Amiga 1000 when it came out,
> despite the fact that even by 1987 the PC and Mac hadn't caught up
> with its graphics and sound capabilities, the "mainstream media" was
> quite correctly paying attention to the things that were important -
> the computers that you could get software for, the computers that
> were being used in offices and small businesses everywhere.

There was plenty of software available for the Amiga - I ran
WordPerfect on mine.

The most important thing that the Amiga was missing was the
magic three letters in its name.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

[Scott Lurndal]

Baseboard Management Controller. A chip with a small
low-power core (like an ARM M series core) and either
a built-in NIC, or access via NC-SI to the NIC in the
southbridge on the baseboard. It's responsible for
power management and out-of-band management (e.g. updating
firmware such as UEFI or BIOS, monitoring temperatures and
other health metrics, resetting the processors, etc).

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-09-24, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> The most important thing that the Amiga was missing was the
> magic three letters in its name.

Yes, the C was sadly not deemed an appropriate substitute.

Niklas
--
It's possible to make Windows secure, in much the same way as it's
possible to make a bullet-proof vest out of cheese - you just need
an awful lot of cheese and the end result doesn't smell good.
-- Jim in asr

[JimP]

On 24 Sep 2020 18:40:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

>On 2020-09-23, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> So, while one would have expected even the mainstream media to have
>> taken notice of the groundbreaking Amiga 1000 when it came out,
>> despite the fact that even by 1987 the PC and Mac hadn't caught up
>> with its graphics and sound capabilities, the "mainstream media" was
>> quite correctly paying attention to the things that were important -
>> the computers that you could get software for, the computers that
>> were being used in offices and small businesses everywhere.
>
>There was plenty of software available for the Amiga - I ran
>WordPerfect on mine.
>
>The most important thing that the Amiga was missing was the
>magic three letters in its name.

I bought Word Perfect and Lotus 1-2-3 for mine. Warning came with
Lotus, don't use more than a certain number of rows, as beyond that
would be too many and the ms-dos version couldn't import the file.

--
Jim

[Dallas]

I definitely remember typing +++ to make the modem pay attention to my commands.

[Dallas]

On 9/24/2020 2:42 PM, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
> On 2020-09-24, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> The most important thing that the Amiga was missing was the
>> magic three letters in its name.
>
> Yes, the C was sadly not deemed an appropriate substitute.
> Niklas
>

Perhaps Jack should have considered just inserting the C to get the eye-catching ICBM

[Grant Taylor]

On 9/24/20 11:06 AM, maus wrote:
> Tell us more, I thought that hayes commands were for modems, rather
> than routers, but I suppose that the line of descent would involved
> some obscure areas, like the now unused subway systems in many cities.

They are for modems.

But routers can and do use them to manage USB / cell modems connected to
the router.

I'm guessing that the biggest use for them today is directly related to
cell phones (read: fancy modems).

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 12:41:15 PM UTC-6, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> There was plenty of software available for the Amiga - I ran
> WordPerfect on mine.

And today there is "plenty" of software available for the Macintosh. But some
people are just picky.

John Savard

[Charlie Gibbs]

Often in the same sense as citizens in the former Soviet Union.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 24 Sep 2020 18:40:18 GMT

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2020-09-23, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> > So, while one would have expected even the mainstream media to have
> > taken notice of the groundbreaking Amiga 1000 when it came out,
> > despite the fact that even by 1987 the PC and Mac hadn't caught up
> > with its graphics and sound capabilities, the "mainstream media" was
> > quite correctly paying attention to the things that were important -
> > the computers that you could get software for, the computers that
> > were being used in offices and small businesses everywhere.
>
> There was plenty of software available for the Amiga - I ran
> WordPerfect on mine.

In 1995 I organised a trade show stand for the ISP I was running,
we had a dial up connection to the site, a BSD box running as a local
router and a Windows PC, a Mac and an Amiga (belonging to customers
helping out) connected up. But that wasn't enough for the guy who brought
the Amiga along he had to fire up a PC emulator and run Windows on it and a
Mac emulator.

One thing that was amusing was discovering another stand where
they were making a big deal out of being able to connect a unix box to PCs
and Macs.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[Niklas Karlsson]

Ah yes, the market would have blown up!

Hmm. I swear this sig was randomly selected automatically, not
handpicked by me for this post...

Niklas
--
"But you've got to hand it to IBM, they know how to design hardware. The
servers all had handles to pick them up and throw them out of the window...."
-- Juergen Nieveler in asr

[maus]

On 2020-09-25, Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2020-09-24, Dallas <dal...@texas.usa> wrote:
>> On 9/24/2020 2:42 PM, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>>> On 2020-09-24, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> The most important thing that the Amiga was missing was the
>>>> magic three letters in its name.
>>>
>>> Yes, the C was sadly not deemed an appropriate substitute.
>>> Niklas
>>
>> Perhaps Jack should have considered just inserting the C to get the eye-catching ICBM
>
> Ah yes, the market would have blown up!
>
> Hmm. I swear this sig was randomly selected automatically, not
> handpicked by me for this post...
>
> Niklas
>

Three letters, HAL.

[Bob Eager]

The old HAL => IBM.

But then there's Dave Cutler:

VMS => WNT

[J. Clarke]

On 25 Sep 2020 13:54:20 GMT, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:12:27 +0000, maus wrote:
>
>> On 2020-09-25, Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>> On 2020-09-24, Dallas <dal...@texas.usa> wrote:
>>>> On 9/24/2020 2:42 PM, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>>>>> On 2020-09-24, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> The most important thing that the Amiga was missing was the magic
>>>>>> three letters in its name.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, the C was sadly not deemed an appropriate substitute. Niklas
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps Jack should have considered just inserting the C to get the
>>>> eye-catching ICBM
>>>
>>> Ah yes, the market would have blown up!
>>>
>>> Hmm. I swear this sig was randomly selected automatically, not
>>> handpicked by me for this post...
>>>
>>> Niklas
>>>
>>>
>> Three letters, HAL.
>
>The old HAL => IBM.
>
>But then there's Dave Cutler:
>
> VMS => WNT

Why did I never notice that?