Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley

[Peter Flass]

As we were saying.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-employees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html

--
Pete

[J. Clarke]

He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.

[Peter Flass]

OTOH there’s a huge difference in living costs. In my old area in upstate
NY the average house costs under $300,000. We lived in a development
interwoven with lots of woods and well-maintained hiking trails, and
relatively little traffic. I forget what the cost of a house mentioned in
the article was, but it was several times more than that for a comparable
house on a tiny lot. Gas is also a lot more in California. I know Scott
likes it, but you can live as well in many areas for 1/4 the salary. We’d
possibly still be there except we moved to be near family.

--
Pete

[J. Clarke]

On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass

<peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>> <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As we were saying.
>>>
>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-employees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>
>> He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>>
>
>OTOH there’s a huge difference in living costs.

Tough. If the work is worth 250K a year thent that should be the pay
no matter where the worker lives. I'd go so far as to say that it
should even apply to offshored work.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Fri, 22 May 2020 22:21:03 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Tough. If the work is worth 250K a year thent that should be the pay
> no matter where the worker lives. I'd go so far as to say that it
> should even apply to offshored work.

Employers tend to think differently - I need someone to do X, these
two people are qualified and seem competent one wants 250K the other wants
50K - go with the 50K and pocket a bonus.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[Questor]

And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
historic population centers. Consequently, there's little demand to live there
and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
New York.

[Questor]

On Fri, 22 May 2020 22:21:03 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass
><peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>>> <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> As we were saying.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-employees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>>
>>> He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>>
>>OTOH there’s a huge difference in living costs.
>
>Tough. If the work is worth 250K a year thent that should be the pay
>no matter where the worker lives. I'd go so far as to say that it
>should even apply to offshored work.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Why do you think there are more than half a million H-1B visa holders
in the U.S.?

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

On 25/05/2020 3:37 pm, Questor wrote:
> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
> historic population centers. Consequently, there's little demand to live there
> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
> New York.

This may be weering off topic, but as I understand your question, New
York is the centre of the publishing industry, and it may be the centre
of more economic niches not relevant to computing.

--
Johann | email: invalid -> com | www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | twitter: @myrkraverk

[John Levine]

In article <V2OyG.983914$Kji.5...@fx15.am4>,

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>On 25/05/2020 3:37 pm, Questor wrote:
>> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no

>> historic population centers. ...

>This may be weering off topic, but as I understand your question, New
>York is the centre of the publishing industry, and it may be the centre
>of more economic niches not relevant to computing.

The publishing is downstate in New York City along with banking and finance.

When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.

--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

[Peter Flass]

Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>>> <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As we were saying.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-employees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>>
>>> He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>>
>> OTOH there’s a huge difference in living costs. In my old area in upstate
>> NY the average house costs under $300,000. We lived in a development
>> interwoven with lots of woods and well-maintained hiking trails, and
>> relatively little traffic. I forget what the cost of a house mentioned in
>> the article was, but it was several times more than that for a comparable
>> house on a tiny lot. Gas is also a lot more in California. I know Scott
>> likes it, but you can live as well in many areas for 1/4 the salary. We’d
>> possibly still be there except we moved to be near family.
>
> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
> historic population centers.

Oh, please. One thing I miss were I am now are exactly those things. No
“extractive”industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
and jockeys.

> Consequently, there's little demand to live there
> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
> New York.
>

Better weather, but a lot more earthquakes. I agree it would be a wonderful
place to live if it weren’t so crowded.


--
Pete

[Questor]

On Mon, 25 May 2020 16:35:41 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>In article <V2OyG.983914$Kji.5...@fx15.am4>,
>Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <joh...@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>>On 25/05/2020 3:37 pm, Questor wrote:
>>> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>>> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
>>> historic population centers. ...
>
>>This may be weering off topic, but as I understand your question, New
>>York is the centre of the publishing industry, and it may be the centre
>>of more economic niches not relevant to computing.
>
>The publishing is downstate in New York City along with banking and finance.
>
>When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.

Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border. There's
the Adirondacks and Lake Champlain, and little else of note. I do not consider
Buffalo or Rochester to be in upstate New York. I am not unappreciative of the
rural parts of the Mid-Atlantic region, but as far as economic activity is
concerned, there isn't that much.

[Peter Flass]

Once again, Lake George and Saratoga Springs. North of Glens Falls is all
Adirondack Park, so you wouldn’t expect much there except outdoor
recreation - hiking, mountaineering, skiing, swimming, canoeing, tourism
(Fort William Henry, Fort Ticonderoga, Adirondack Museum, Lake Placid,
Ausable Chasm) etc.

--
Pete

[John Levine]

In article <5ecc1066...@news.dslextreme.com>,

Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
>>When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>
>Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.

That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
rail lines end.

Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
prefer spiedies?

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-05-25, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Better weather, but a lot more earthquakes. I agree it would be a wonderful
> place to live if it weren’t so crowded.

Sounds like that restaurant review:
"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

[Scott Lurndal]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> writes:
>In article <5ecc1066...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>>by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>>Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>>the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
>That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
>agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
>consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
>of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
>are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
>rail lines end.
>
>Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
>prefer spiedies?

Or jump across the border for some poutine.

[Scott Lurndal]

One word: Mosquitos.
Another word: Winter, (lake effect snow)

I'll take coastal california anyday.

>
>> Consequently, there's little demand to live there
>> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
>> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
>> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
>> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
>> New York.
>>
>
>Better weather, but a lot more earthquakes. I agree it would be a wonderful
>place to live if it weren’t so crowded.

It's a huge state, and not at all crowded outside of LA and SF. I've experienced
two major earthquakes since 1983 (1987 Wittier Narrows and 1989 Loma Prieta)
and two or three much smaller (no damage) quakes. One major quake every
two decades doesn't seem that bad to me compared to feet of snow for several
months every year.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 26 May 2020 14:21:26 GMT
sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> One major quake every
> two decades doesn't seem that bad to me compared to feet of snow for
> several months every year.

I'll take 300 days with rain a year, almost no snow and an
occasional quake that can only be detected with instruments over either of
those options.

[John Levine]

In article <GB9zG.61699$1y4....@fx23.iad>,

Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>Oh, please. One thing I miss were I am now are exactly those things. No
>>“extractive”industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
>>area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
>>parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
>>Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
>>winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
>>recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
>>Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
>>the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
>> and jockeys.
>
>One word: Mosquitos.
>Another word: Winter, (lake effect snow)

You really need to get around more. Lake effect is only close to Lakes
Erie and Ontario, which means north of the Thruway and east of I-81.
Here in the Finger Lakes or the Southern Tier it's no big deal. Ditto
mosquitoes which are bad if you're out in the Adirondack park, not
here. If only the wine were better it'd be idyllic. (For some reason,
the wine here in the Finger Lakes is at best so-so while in Canada
north of Niagara Falls some is amazingly good, not just ice wine, but
it all goes to Toronto and you never see it in the U.S.)

>I'll take coastal California anyday.

Thanks, but I've been there. I'll stick with my nice house in a
post-war development.

That would be the Civil war, of course.

[Peter Flass]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <5ecc1066...@news.dslextreme.com>,
> Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
> That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
> agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
> consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
> of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
> are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
> rail lines end.
>

Sounds plausible.

> Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
> prefer spiedies?
>
>
>
>



--

Pete

[Peter Flass]

Brush fires, too.
This is a case of different strokes for different folks. Partly it’s what
you’re used to, and partly on how you weigh the various costs and benefits.
Someone from NYC who values being able to walk to restaurants and clubs
would probably not be happy anywhere else, for example.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 May 2020 14:21:26 GMT
> sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> One major quake every
>> two decades doesn't seem that bad to me compared to feet of snow for
>> several months every year.
>
> I'll take 300 days with rain a year, almost no snow and an
> occasional quake that can only be detected with instruments over either of
> those options.
>

British Columbia?
I’ll take 360 days of sun a year, but I’ve spent some time in California
and mostly lived in Upstate NY, and every place seems to have its good and
bad points.

--
Pete

[Scott Lurndal]

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
> and every place seems to have its good and
>bad points.

With this I agree heartily.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 26 May 2020 12:56:18 -0700
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 26 May 2020 14:21:26 GMT
> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> >
> >> One major quake every
> >> two decades doesn't seem that bad to me compared to feet of snow for
> >> several months every year.
> >
> > I'll take 300 days with rain a year, almost no snow and an
> > occasional quake that can only be detected with instruments over either
> > of those options.
> >
>
> British Columbia?

Ireland.

[Charlie Gibbs]

I once saw a T-shirt at a local shop:

FIRST VANCOUVER RAIN FESTIVAL

[insert clever graphic]

SEPTEMBER 1 - AUGUST 31

As the saying goes, in Vancouver you don't tan, you rust.

[Questor]

On Tue, 26 May 2020 00:23:07 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>In article <5ecc1066...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>>by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>>Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>>the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
>That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
>agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
>consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
>of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
>are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
>rail lines end.

While I recognize that some New York City dwellers might consider Westchester to
be "upstate," your definition is little better. (I believe that Poughkeepsie,
barely ninety miles from NYC, is where the rail line ends.) If nearly the whole
state is "upstate," then there's little difference between New York and Upstate
New York, and the distinction becomes meaningless. It's like saying anything
outside of Troy is Western New York, or anything outside of San Diego is
Northern California. By your logic, you actually live in downstate New York,
according to residents in Malone.

[Questor]

On Mon, 25 May 2020 10:55:46 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
>>On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>><peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>As we were saying.
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-employees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>>>
>>>>He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>>>
>>>OTOH there's a huge difference in living costs. In my old area in upstate
>>>NY the average house costs under $300,000. We lived in a development
>>>interwoven with lots of woods and well-maintained hiking trails, and
>>>relatively little traffic. I forget what the cost of a house mentioned in
>>>the article was, but it was several times more than that for a comparable
>>>house on a tiny lot. Gas is also a lot more in California. I know Scott
>>>likes it, but you can live as well in many areas for 1/4 the salary. We’d
>>>possibly still be there except we moved to be near family.
>>
>>And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>>industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
>>historic population centers.
>

>Oh, please. One thing I miss where I am now are exactly those things. No

>"extractive" industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
>area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
>parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
>Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
>winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
>recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
>Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
>the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
>and jockeys.

Those might be attractive qualities to you, and perhaps even myself, but the
proof is in the pudding. The fact is that large numbers of people are not
moving to Saratoga Springs or Utica. They do move to places like the San
Francisco Bay Area, Boston, Seattle, or Las Vegas, because, again, those
locations have a significant economic base and provide a lot of job
opportunities.

San Francisco, redwood forests, and the California coast are visited by people
from around the world who travel there specifically to see them. I doubt you
could say that about the Adironacks, nice as they are. And there's simply no
comparison between the arts community in the Bay Area versus what can be found
in upstate New York. You're confusing "history" with "historic population
centers," and I admit that San Francisco does not have the same lengthy history
that parts of New York has. But Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts all
have many more historic sites than New York, apart from New York City.

>> Consequently, there's little demand to live there
>> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
>> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
>> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
>> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
>> New York.
>
>Better weather, but a lot more earthquakes. I agree it would be a wonderful
>place to live if it weren't so crowded.

Blizzards and ice storms. The effects from earthquakes are largely localized,
ranging a few tens of miles, and most people are not adversely affected. They
can get on with their business in short order, if not immediately. Blizzards
extend for hundreds of miles, everyone is impacted, and it can take days to dig
out.

As mentioned elsewhere: mosquitos. Mosquitos in the East are markedly more
numerous and aggressive than on the West Coast. And let's not forget black
flies. And now there are ticks carrying Lyme Disease. I don't think that's
spread to West Coast yet. Insects are simply not as much nuisance in the West
as they are in the East.

Mind you, I'm not trying to start an East vs. West debate here. I'm
specifically comparing the San Francisco Bay Area to upstate New York (mostly as
I define it.) As a counter example, the greater Boston area compares favorably.
The mountains in Vermont and New Hampshire are within striking distance, there's
the ocean, and Boston has intellectual and cultural attractions up the yin-yang.
The fall foliage is spectacularly beautiful.

But no one should be puzzling over why the San Francisco Bay Area is more

[Scott Lurndal]

And indeed, the history of San Francisco is longer than one might think;
Fra Serra died in Carmel-by-the-sea in 1784 after establishing missions
all along the coast (including in San Francisco).

[Dave Garland]

As much as it may offend logic, in the eyes of state residents, all NY
is divided into two parts: "upstate" and "the city" (I don't think I
ever heard anyone use the term "downstate", and while there are many
other cities, there is only one "The City"). There's a New Yorker
cover by Saul Steinberg that depicts a (rather logarithmic) map of the
US from the NYC perspective, with the distance to the Hudson River
larger than the distance from the Hudson to the Pacific Ocean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_World_from_9th_Avenue

[Peter Flass]

1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Just like Constantinople. “Istanbul” is a corruption of Greek for “ the
city”.

I heard “downstate” a lot. The line is kind of fluid, and depends on the
context. I tended to think of Yonkers and south as “the city,” but maybe
that’s just me.

> There's a New Yorker
> cover by Saul Steinberg that depicts a (rather logarithmic) map of the
> US from the NYC perspective, with the distance to the Hudson River
> larger than the distance from the Hudson to the Pacific Ocean.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_World_from_9th_Avenue
>

--
Pete

[Mike Spencer]

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote: There's a New Yorker

>
>> cover by Saul Steinberg that depicts a (rather logarithmic) map of
>> the US from the NYC perspective, with the distance to the Hudson
>> River larger than the distance from the Hudson to the Pacific
>> Ocean.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_World_from_9th_Avenue

There's a similar map from the Boston perspective. Boston & Cambridge
about the same size as the rest of Mass. Mass. about the same size as
the rest of New England which in turn is the same size as the rest of
N. America. NYC & California are postage stamps on the east and west
coasts respectively. The amorphous remainder is variously labeled
"Hot", "Hot & dry", "Flat", "Lumpy" etc. Canada is labeled "Cold",
Mexico "Hot and dangerous".

Yes, I once lived on Beacon Hill. Not Louisburg Sq. but we enjoyed
equitable access to the same population of egalitarian cockroaches.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[Charlie Gibbs]

When I were a lad, many local restaurants had paper placemats containing
a parody of a map of Canada in which British Columbia took up more than
half and was filled with all sorts of sight gags. The blank area to the
south was labeled "Unexplored Southern Area".

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-05-27, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> 1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
> IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.

"In Europe, 100 miles is a long way.
In North America, 100 years is a long time."

[John Levine]

In article <1263777730.612288505.967...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> And indeed, the history of San Francisco is longer than one might think;
>> Fra Serra died in Carmel-by-the-sea in 1784 after establishing missions

>> all along the coast (including in San Francisco). ...

>1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
>IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.

It depends where you are. St Augustine FL has been continuously
occupied by Europeans and their descendants since 1565, Santa Fe NM
since 1610, and New York City since 1614. That's not like most
European towns where the usual answer to "how long has this town been
here?" is either "it's always been here" or "since the Romans camped
here" but it's several centuries older than most of the U.S.

In Santa Fe I gather it leads to a certain amount of reverse "go back
where you came from" snark since the oldest families are all Latino.

[Scott Lurndal]

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>> On 5/27/2020 1:36 AM, Questor wrote:
es of state residents, all NY
>> is divided into two parts: "upstate" and "the city" (I don't think I
>> ever heard anyone use the term "downstate", and while there are many
>> other cities, there is only one "The City").
>
>Just like Constantinople. “Istanbul” is a corruption of Greek for “ the
>city”.

Which was renamed from Byzantium by the emperor Constantine.

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Wed, 2020-05-27, Peter Flass wrote:
...

> 1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
> IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.

You don't notice it much in Europe though, not in my part anyway.
The average church is from the 12th century, but typically heavily
reworked in the 19th. "Old" buildings are from the late 19th century,
and the landscape changed completely during the 20th century.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[Mike Spencer]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> writes:

> In Santa Fe I gather it leads to a certain amount of reverse "go back
> where you came from" snark since the oldest families are all Latino.

In Neal Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon_ (circa 1990s) there is a charcter
said to be from a southwestern community of Jews who have been there
forever, "look like Indians and talk like cowboys." In the same
author's Baroque Cycle, a Jewish character, having survived the
Inquisition in Mexico City (circa 1698), is bound for the "north" where
there is said to be a community of fellow Jews.

I have no idea of the historicity of this but such a 17th c.
Indian/Latino/Jewish community antedates the conventional notion of
"westward expansion".

[JimP]

On 27 May 2020 19:11:45 -0300, Mike Spencer

Actually the oldest families would be Native Americans.

--
Jim

[Dave Garland]

On 5/27/2020 11:16 AM, Peter Flass wrote:

> Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:

>> As much as it may offend logic, in the eyes of state residents, all NY
>> is divided into two parts: "upstate" and "the city" (I don't think I
>> ever heard anyone use the term "downstate", and while there are many
>> other cities, there is only one "The City").
>
> Just like Constantinople. “Istanbul” is a corruption of Greek for “ the
> city”.
>
> I heard “downstate” a lot. The line is kind of fluid, and depends on the
> context. I tended to think of Yonkers and south as “the city,” but maybe
> that’s just me.
>

Well, it's been over 50 years since I lived there, maybe I've
forgotten. IIRC, from a "Southern Tier" perspective (terminology that
never did make sense to me, even after it was explained) mostly "NY"
was assumed to be north of "The City" unless specified as NYC.

[Dan Espen]

I lived in the North East Bronx a few miles from the Westchester line
for 40 years. Upstate was just beyond Westchester and Yonkers.

It's hard to believe Manhattan and the Bronx were even prettier than
upstate. There are some very pretty land forms in NYS.
Watkins Glen is pretty neat.


--
Dan Espen

[John Levine]

In article <ran4ii$j6u$1...@dont-email.me>,

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I heard “downstate” a lot. The line is kind of fluid, and depends on the
>>> context. I tended to think of Yonkers and south as “the city,” but maybe
>>> that’s just me.
>>>
>> Well, it's been over 50 years since I lived there, maybe I've
>> forgotten.

I live near Ithaca now and people say downstate when they mean NYC and
environs. There is the SUNY Downstate Medical Center, a large teaching
hospital in Brooklyn.

>It's hard to believe Manhattan and the Bronx were even prettier than
>upstate. There are some very pretty land forms in NYS.

My father grew up in Riverdale. When his family moved there in the
1920s what is now Netherland Ave was a dirt path.

>Watkins Glen is pretty neat.

The glen itself is great and some of the stuff along the lake is
pretty nice. The salt mine, meh.

ObFolklore: In the past .US domain names were all assigned by city,
and many places had local registrars some of whom are still around. If
you'd like a <something>.watkins-glen.ny.us domain name, see
http://www.watkins-glen.ny.us/

[David Lesher]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> writes:

>In article <5ecc1066...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>>by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>>Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>>the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.

>That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
>agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
>consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
>of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
>are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
>rail lines end.

>Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
>prefer spiedies?

Not Lutefisk???

--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Dave Garland]

On 5/28/2020 1:25 AM, David Lesher wrote:
> John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> writes:
>
>> In article <5ecc1066...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>> Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>>
>>> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>>> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
>> That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
>> agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
>> consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
>> of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
>> are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
>> rail lines end.
>
>> Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
>> prefer spiedies?
>
> Not Lutefisk???
>

Nah. The Norwegians came later, NY was taken already, they ended up in
Minnesota with their lutefisk.

[Dan Espen]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> writes:

> In article <ran4ii$j6u$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> I heard �¬Sdownstate⬝ a lot. The line is kind of fluid, and depends on the
>>>> context. I tended to think of Yonkers and south as �¬Sthe city,⬝ but maybe

>>>> that�¬"s just me.
>>>>
>>> Well, it's been over 50 years since I lived there, maybe I've
>>> forgotten.
>
> I live near Ithaca now and people say downstate when they mean NYC and
> environs. There is the SUNY Downstate Medical Center, a large teaching
> hospital in Brooklyn.
>
>>It's hard to believe Manhattan and the Bronx were even prettier than
>>upstate. There are some very pretty land forms in NYS.
>
> My father grew up in Riverdale. When his family moved there in the
> 1920s what is now Netherland Ave was a dirt path.

Where I lived in the Bronx we lived on gravel roads up until I finally
escaped in 1977.

--
Dan Espen

[Thomas Koenig]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> schrieb:

> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.

I didn't know that buffalo had wings.

[Peter Flass]

Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Wed, 2020-05-27, Peter Flass wrote:
> ...
>> 1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
>> IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.
>
> You don't notice it much in Europe though, not in my part anyway.
> The average church is from the 12th century, but typically heavily
> reworked in the 19th. "Old" buildings are from the late 19th century,
> and the landscape changed completely during the 20th century.
>

A lot of it got urban renewal during the 40s.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Somebody, maybe National Geographic, came across a community in isolated
rural New Mexico where the people observe many Jewish traditions without
realizing where they came from. Their ancestors hid being Jewish so well
that their descendants didn’t even know.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
> John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> writes:
>
>> In article <5ecc1066...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>> Questor <use...@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>>
>>> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>>> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
>> That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
>> agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
>> consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
>> of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
>> are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
>> rail lines end.
>
>> Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
>> prefer spiedies?
>
> Not Lutefisk???
>

That’s Minnesota.

--
Pete

[Sn!pe]

A few years ago Winchester Cathedral in England was covered in
scaffolding while it had its first ever scrub-down to remove a
hundred years or so of Industrial Age grime and soot staining.

An American tourist asked me "How often do they do that?
I answered "About every three hundred years or so".

--
^Ï^ <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

[JimP]

Marketing scheme for chicken wings.

--
Jim

[Mike Spencer]

snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:

> A few years ago Winchester Cathedral in England was covered in
> scaffolding while it had its first ever scrub-down to remove a
> hundred years or so of Industrial Age grime and soot staining.
>
> An American tourist asked me "How often do they do that?
> I answered "About every three hundred years or so".

I visited Ironbridge in the Severn R. Valley in 1980 while at the big
blacksmithing conference. Seems that was the first time im [mumble]
years that they had found it neccessary to clean/repair the eponymous
iron bridge so it was shrouded in scaffolding and tarpaulins.

Not a problem as I could buy slides & postcards with landscape views
of the bridge. Indeed, a great advantage as I was able to climb the
scaffolding and take close-up photos of the joinery impossible from a
viewpoint on the ground.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

HM Leftpondia where my house is "quite old" (circa 1860-80)

[Peter Flass]

Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
>
>> A few years ago Winchester Cathedral in England was covered in
>> scaffolding while it had its first ever scrub-down to remove a
>> hundred years or so of Industrial Age grime and soot staining.
>>
>> An American tourist asked me "How often do they do that?
>> I answered "About every three hundred years or so".
>
> I visited Ironbridge in the Severn R. Valley in 1980 while at the big
> blacksmithing conference. Seems that was the first time im [mumble]
> years that they had found it neccessary to clean/repair the eponymous
> iron bridge so it was shrouded in scaffolding and tarpaulins.
>
> Not a problem as I could buy slides & postcards with landscape views
> of the bridge. Indeed, a great advantage as I was able to climb the
> scaffolding and take close-up photos of the joinery impossible from a
> viewpoint on the ground.
>
>

I bet they loved that!

--
Pete

[John Levine]

In article <1fjvcfhtcrr0mu6l7...@4ax.com>,

JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 28 May 2020 12:55:45 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig

>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>>I didn't know that buffalo had wings.
>
>Marketing scheme for chicken wings.

And blue cheese dressing.

In fact, Buffalo wings come from one bar in Buffalo and are no more
popular in Buffalo than anywhere else.

On the other hand, Beef on Weck, thinly sliced roast beef on a
kummelweck roll with a little horseradish and the juice from the beef
on the top part, is a staple all over the west end of the state. I
like Charlie the Butcher, conveniently located just past the west end
of runway 14/32 near the Buffalo airport.

[Peter Flass]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <1fjvcfhtcrr0mu6l7...@4ax.com>,
> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 May 2020 12:55:45 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
>>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>>
>>> I didn't know that buffalo had wings.
>>
>> Marketing scheme for chicken wings.
>
> And blue cheese dressing.
>
> In fact, Buffalo wings come from one bar in Buffalo and are no more
> popular in Buffalo than anywhere else.
>
> On the other hand, Beef on Weck, thinly sliced roast beef on a
> kummelweck roll with a little horseradish and the juice from the beef
> on the top part, is a staple all over the west end of the state. I
> like Charlie the Butcher, conveniently located just past the west end
> of runway 14/32 near the Buffalo airport.
>

We had an ex-buffalonian in Saratoga who served beef on weck at his
barbecue. I really miss it. We also had a diner that served poutine, so we
had a little of everything.

--
Pete

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Thu, 28 May 2020 17:04:15 GMT, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
> snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
>
>> A few years ago Winchester Cathedral in England was covered in
>> scaffolding while it had its first ever scrub-down to remove a
>> hundred years or so of Industrial Age grime and soot staining.
>>
>> An American tourist asked me "How often do they do that?
>> I answered "About every three hundred years or so".
>
> I visited Ironbridge in the Severn R. Valley in 1980 while at the big
> blacksmithing conference. Seems that was the first time im [mumble]
> years that they had found it neccessary to clean/repair the eponymous
> iron bridge so it was shrouded in scaffolding and tarpaulins.

I think they've [done|had to do] it again recently; it was vacuwrapped a
couple of years ago; but back on show last year.

> Not a problem as I could buy slides & postcards with landscape views
> of the bridge. Indeed, a great advantage as I was able to climb the
> scaffolding and take close-up photos of the joinery impossible from a
> viewpoint on the ground.
>
>


--

Bah, and indeed, Humbug.