Why cons SHOULD NOT cost so much.
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
In article <359B4B...@radix.net>,
ebur...@radix.net wrote:
> Still, when I was stuck buying a Balticon membership at the door and
> found out that it was $45, I nearly choked. What *were* they spending
> the money on? Thinking about it later, I realized that what really got
> to me was the $5.00 (which was, in effect, a late fee for not
> pre-regging). $40 I could have handled. $45 stuck in my craw.
> Stupid.
>
> But it's the membership prices people usually complain about (although I
> have been hearing more people complain about the cost of the hotel
> lately). Why?
I can only speak for myself, but I'll try to 'splain why the costs have basically convinced me to
stop going (even though I can afford the costs):
I started attending cons about (choke) 19 years ago. I went to August Party, a couple of Unicons,
Disclave, Balticon, and a few others I can't recall. They were much less polished and much cheaper
(try $7 admission for my first convention). And more fun.
Somewhere along the way, those organizing the conventions got the idea that I expected them to
entertain me. When that happened, more money was spent on guests. More rooms were booked for panel
discussions on everything from costuming to whether there should be more panels. The dinky rooms
where we'd wander in and laugh at some old Godzilla movie were replaced with palacial ballrooms
seating hundreds at a time showing recent, serious science fiction movies.
Cons started moving upscale in other ways, too. Conventions that used to be held out in the boonies
(e.g. Balticon at the Hunt Valley Inn) suddenly moved into posh hotels with guys in tuxedos playing
piano at the $4-per-beer bars. At the same time, food got scarcer in the con suites with the hotel
frequently supplying food and drink at exorbitant prices. Want a soda? No problem. You can get one
for $3.00 from your in-room mini-bar. All of that conspired to drive the prices sharply up. Hotel
rooms that used to be under $80 for a quad suddenly skyrocketed. Where we used to see free parking,
we were now being asked to pay high prices to squeeze our cars into tiny spaces in multi-story pay
parking garages.
Now, let's look at the effects of the higher prices for everything from membership to hotel rooms to
food. People who could have afforded to attend no longer could. When a three night stay in a room
cost upwards of $400 (split however many ways), parking turned into another $30 or more, membership
was $40+, suddenly, even those trying to do the con on the cheap were paying $300 or more and many
could not afford it.
In some cases, they didn't come.
In others they did. They turned into second-class citizens not allowed to attend convention events
because they couldn't justify the cost of membership. They hung out in lobbies and hallways,
frequently getting destructive and disruptive because they were bored and had nothing to lose. They
didn't have a con badge to take. They didn't have a room to be kicked out of. The hotel hated them
and saw them as the "bad element" that conventions draw. Those who did pay for the conventions and
rooms couldn't sit down in the lobbies because all of the seats were closely guarded by those with
no place else to go.
I've started seeing television ads for conventions I used to attend! We attracted a good crowd that
understood what conventions were about without television ads. We did not need to encourage 12 year
olds who want to dress up as their favorite Power Ranger to show up. Someone seems to have decided
that the success of a convention can be measured in attendees. I think it can be measured in the
percentage of repeat attendees.
I go to conventions to see old friends and make new ones. Why should I end up paying a premium so
the con can run a recent movie through a crappy portable projector hooked to P.A. speakers when I
could go rent the movie at Blockbuster? Do I really need to see another panel on "How to write good
and get published"? Do I want to be trapped in a hotel because I'm afraid the parking garage will
be full when I get back from lunch? Do I want to pay for some author to show up there and push his
books?
What do I want from a con?
* Some corny old movies that show all night.
* A con suite with sodas, beer, and a variety of snack foods.
* A friendly hotel staff that doesn't look down on us.
* Free, convenient parking.
* Affordable hotel rooms with comfortable beds and little else (no wet bar, no VCR, no mints or
cookies on the pillows).
* Places to hang out with friends where we don't get told we're blocking a hallway, fire escape,
elevator, etc.
* A membership that is affordable ($30 or less at the door).
* A pool that isn't mysteriously "closed for maintenance" during the whole convention ;-)
But, maybe I'm an old fart who just isn't handling change as well as I used to...
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Laurie D. T. Mann
with is that most hotels now want function space rental money
even if the con sells out hundreds of hotel room nights. It used to be
that con hotels were happy if you filled up their sleeping rooms -
they used to kick in function space FOR FREE. No longer. They
want banquets and food functions and function space rental.
These issues are driving up con membership prices.
--
Laurie D. T. Mann
FanHistoriCon 8 Planning http://fanac.org/timebinders/fanh8plan.html
Rae Montor
Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> wrote:
> I can only speak for myself, but I'll try to 'splain why the costs have
> basically convinced me to stop going (even though I can afford the costs):
>
> I started attending cons about (choke) 19 years ago.
Unchoke. I started 25 years ago. (We energizer fen have to stick together. <G>)
> Disclave, Balticon, and a few others I can't recall. They were much less
> polished and much cheaper (try $7 admission for my first convention). And
> more fun.
Some cons still have prices about like that. See Not Just Another Con in
Amherst, MA: perfectly nice people, student prices. Even my first con
wasn't that cheap -- but then, it was a Westercon. YMMV.
> Somewhere along the way, those organizing the conventions got the idea
> that I expected them to entertain me. When that happened, more money was
> spent on guests.
The only money I know of *ever* spent on guests (yes, in fan-run literary
cons) was plane fare (or other travel), and room&board -- and *that* was
on GoH's. No other guests got any of that -- and still they showed up. And
still they do, for that matter. <G>
It's true that the costs for those things have risen -- but still, that's
for three guests at the most (if one has a "rich" con, and can pay for all
that in the first place, for GoH, EGoH, and AGoH).
> More rooms were booked for panel
> discussions on everything from costuming to whether there should be more
> panels.
So did you like any panel discussions to begin with? (Me, I do -- and
sometimes think that the only problem with the multi-track panel business
is that they're so frequently the *same* panels [rather than just ones
that aren't my style, one way or t'other].)
What do I mean? Well, one of the panels at the upcoming (October 2-4) con
I'm running (Viable Paradise II: SF on Martha's Vineyard [advert]) is
Deus in Machina
The religion of technology
Heard that elsewhere recently? We've got a few others as good (personal
opinion).
> The dinky rooms
> where we'd wander in and laugh at some old Godzilla movie were replaced
> with palacial ballrooms
> seating hundreds at a time showing recent, serious science fiction movies.
Again, different experiences: it begins to sound like your earliest cons
were student-run. Students still run those, and they're interesting to
attend.
> Cons started moving upscale in other ways, too. Conventions that used to
> be held out in the boonies
> (e.g. Balticon at the Hunt Valley Inn) suddenly moved into posh hotels
> with guys in tuxedos playing piano at the $4-per-beer bars.
YMMverymuchV. Lots of cons still live in the (relative) boonies without
piano bars. Just went to Boskone (venerable, lively, LOTS of fun) recently
in... gasp... Framingham. And a distinctly non-upscale time was cheerily
had by all.
> At the same time, food got scarcer in the con suites with the hotel
> frequently supplying food and drink at exorbitant prices. Want a soda? No
> problem. You can get one for $3.00 from your in-room mini-bar.
I am certainly willing to sign the petition for Nuking the Minibars. (Ooh!
How convenient! Cute little cheese and crackers sets with scrumptious
little plastic knives, and a dear little bottle of soda! How marvelous!
And it's ONLY $45! <G>)
I've still chowed down rather impressively in con suites in the not too
distant past, though. (Boskone was very nice, thank you. More than.
Smofcon was blinkin' stunning.)
> All of that conspired to drive the prices sharply up. Hotel
> rooms that used to be under $80 for a quad suddenly skyrocketed.
That. Now *that* is the problem, or a part of it. (And I keep wondering
how it is that they increase profit [more minibars, fewer service costs]
and still charge more. I'd possibly say that the service personnel they do
have cost more, but I know that's not so: hotels still pay close to slave
wages, AFAIK.)
> Where we used to see free parking,
> we were now being asked to pay high prices to squeeze our cars into tiny
> spaces in multi-story pay parking garages.
Oh, rats. In thinking about this, I may have come up with some of the
source of the problem. I dislike it intensely, but it has this ring...
Urban sprawl. Think about it: there was free parking, because one was in
the boonies, and there was lots of space. Streets. Room. Low population
density. A drive from anywhere near public transportation, so not that
many people went there. (Heck, even in my case, where my first con was in
downtown Oakland, CA [not your average boonie, even then <G>], there was
not-all-that-hard-to-find street parking.)
Now there are, frankly, fewer boonies. The places haven't moved, but the
contexts have. What was the boonies is now the burbs. And people don't
build new hotels much in the boonies that are left, unless they're
expecting a new mall to come in right around the corner. (This is not
discussing highway-type motels, which rely on being in the middle of
nowhere. They don't have any function space at all, usually, so they don't
count in this discussion.)
This puts the cost-of-hotel-rooms thing into a sort of perspective: it's
not only the 500-pound-canary problem ("because they can"), it's good old
fashioned free-market capitalism: supply and demand. As we run out of
room, room costs more. Ipso facto, ipsie dixit, upset dixiecup. Foof.
Thanks for providing the context for me to think through this. I think. <grrr>
'Course, this isn't about cons. Quite. Back to the topic.
Oh: there it is. It's also the case that cons have grown. In size, rather
than "up". <G> Although there are still small cons (VP certainly is: this
island isn't going to support a giant con -- we're rural and glad of it),
they're distinctly less visible. One of the topics that interested me a
lot recently was a discussion (several discussions, actually, from several
different perspectives) of whether there should be upper limits to cons,
and if so, how should they be determined. (After which, of course, there
was discussion on -- if you have decided how big is too big, and decided
what's just right -- how to get there.)
In many ways (although not explicitly), this very problem was being
addressed: part of the business of larger hotels, after all, is the need
to accommodate more people. Whether the larger hotels are in the dead
center of town or in the (former) boonies, it's still the business of
1500-person cons, rather than, say, 200-person cons. (I was used to around
2000 in CA, with 350-500 being a first-year figure for new, off-brand
[gaming, e.g.] cons. But that's California: a state of mind. <G>)
> Now, let's look at the effects of the higher prices for everything from
> membership to hotel rooms to food. People who could have afforded to
> attend no longer could. When a three night stay in a room
> cost upwards of $400 (split however many ways), parking turned into
> another $30 or more, membership was $40+, suddenly, even those trying to
> do the con on the cheap were paying $300 or more and many
> could not afford it.
And now we're back at what has been troubling me: the changing demographic
of attending fandom. And the developing exclusionary nature of the
situation. My historical leftist self is very unhappy with this.
And I begin to wonder, here, now, if there isn't a conceptual rift
somewhere we've fallen into: a set of assumptions that led us astray.
Lemme see if I can find (at least one) such a set:
1. Cons are good.
2. Attending cons is, therefore, good.
3. Fandom is, by nature, inclusionary: there are no "outsiders" in
fandom. (It can be argued that fandom is *composed* of "outsiders",
but that's another discussion. <G>)
4. All the fans who want to come to a given con, then, should be
accommodated.
Oops.
If it is the case that the more fans come to a particular con, the more
that con is going to cost (space costs, population density required to
support large enough venues), that begins, possibly, to shed a little
light on the problem. And it seems to argue strongly for smaller cons, in
general.
How retro. But, possibly, how reasonable. (What, me, reasonable... eek... )
And this is, possibly, part of the "entertainment" factor you were
discussing above: fans like to go to cons to see other fans, but that
doesn't necessarily promote more smaller cons, so that fans can actually
*talk* to one another (which would put cons back into smaller locations,
which would cost less, which would make it easier to go to cons... ),
because... because... I'm not sure why because.
Fans are still verbal, so that isn't it. Fans are still relatively
volunteer-y types, so that isn't it, either. (Trying to find a reason why
people don't say, Rooney-Garland-like, "Let's put on a con" more often.)
Dunno. People like "brand name" cons? It takes decent self-esteem to make
the decisions necessary to putting on a con, and that's getting to be in
short supply? There's a security in being a "consumer" of already known
cons? (When the phrase "mental health service consumer" wandered into the
language, trying to replace "locked ward inmate", I sorta gave up... <G>)
This may bear further consideration.
> In some cases, they didn't come.
>
> In others they did. They turned into second-class citizens not allowed to
> attend convention events because they couldn't justify the cost of
> membership. They hung out in lobbies and hallways,
> frequently getting destructive and disruptive because they were bored and
> had nothing to lose.
I've missed seeing that. Just as well, from the sound of it. But I'm
confused: why were they bored? Yes, you can't usually get into either the
dealers' room or the art show without a badge: they have door guards. But
I don't think I've ever seen badges checked at the programming: panels,
readings, demos. So one can attend the programming without paying for a
membership (although it's rude), and one can talk to other fen without
paying for a membership.
So what's with bored? What are they doing there if it bores them? (I'm
*really* confused. Please elucidate. Thanks.)
These are not only not the fen I want, they sound like not the fen I've
ever met. Destructive? Fen? Who?
> They
> didn't have a con badge to take. They didn't have a room to be kicked
> out of. The hotel hated them and saw them as the "bad element" that
> conventions draw.
What cons have you been going to? I've *never* seen anything like this --
but I'm limited to the cons I've been to. I've never heard, though, of
hotels even *thinking* there was a "bad element" drawn by cons.
Confused has upgraded to baffled.
> Those who did pay for the conventions and
> rooms couldn't sit down in the lobbies because all of the seats were
> closely guarded by those with no place else to go.
Baffleation continues.
> I've started seeing television ads for conventions I used to attend!
Waitaminnite. Where are you, and what cons are you talking about? I'm
beginning to get an odd suspicion here: that we're not talking about
literary cons (which is what I attend). The only tv ads I've ever seen for
cons were for media (ST, Who, etc) cons. And those have an entirely
different lineage, since they were originally promoted by producers and
companies, rather than by fans: the "community" aspect may have developed
very differently. If (from what you're telling me) at all.
[There. That entirely sidelines the "fan" v "nonfan" discussion. Let's try
"literary" v "media" and see where it gets us.]
> We attracted a good crowd that
> understood what conventions were about without television ads.
Good...
> We did not need to encourage 12 year olds who want to dress up as their
> favorite Power Ranger to show up.
Different people. Different contexts. Different promotors (v organizers).
Historically (let's not discuss litfans who like actors: it's a different
ballgame), in media cons (what little history they have, since they're
mostly tv, and that's a culturally recent development), kids who wanna be
Power Rangers were encouraged to show up and Spend Money. That's what
those cons were for.
Historically, in literary cons, kids showed up because their parents
brought them, because the whole family liked sf. If dressup happened, what
the kid was wearing had nothing on Mom and Dad (who were often Brunhilde
and Conan, the Odd Couple).
> Someone seems to have decided
> that the success of a convention can be measured in attendees. I think it
> can be measured in the percentage of repeat attendees.
I think you're talking about two different types of cons, and I don't
think they can be concatenated like that. Barring that caveat, I agree
with your metric. I'll add, though, another one of my own: I think the
success of a convention can be measured in the size of the smiles of
attendees talking about it later. (Some cons are one-time, for a variety
of reasons. They can still be called successful, my way.)
> I go to conventions to see old friends and make new ones. Why should I
> end up paying a premium so the con can run a recent movie through a crappy
> portable projector hooked to P.A. speakers when I
> could go rent the movie at Blockbuster?
If they do that, the answer is "No reason at all". OTOH, I have gone to
two separate Norwescons where the midnight show was the unannounced
*premiere* of a movie, complete with official presskits for all attendees.
And that was, in modren language, Way Kewl.
Note: I think (although I admit I'm not sure) that one has to promise to
deliver X number of attendees to talk a studio into doing that. (Word of
mouth publicity makes or breaks a picture, and most studios know that. But
there's a break-even number of mouths it takes to kick that in.)
> Do I really need to see another panel on "How to write good
> and get published"?
*You* may not. *I* may not. But newfen most certainly do -- and if we
don't want to dodo outselves out of existence, we'd best remember it.
> Do I want to be trapped in a hotel because I'm afraid the parking garage
> will be full when I get back from lunch?
Urban sprawl. See above.
> Do I want to pay for some author to show up there and push his books?
Unless you're talking about the GoH, you don't pay for that. The con
doesn't pay for that. And what's wrong with books? (Oh: are we talking
media again? Well, I'd rather have a book pushed than a tv show. Books are
quieter. <G>)
> What do I want from a con?
>
> * Some corny old movies that show all night.
That one I'm not so sure about. Corny old movies come from Blockbuster,
too. How about eps of good tv shows that haven't been on in a decade or
two, and were in limited distribution in the first place?
> * A con suite with sodas, beer, and a variety of snack foods.
Yup.
> * A friendly hotel staff that doesn't look down on us.
Hotel staffs are as they have always been: mixed. Hotel *management*,
now... well, I had a really wonderful coupla experiences during Boskone
(it's the most recent one I've been to, cut me some slack, okay), and they
were distincly Operating Under Stress (electrical problems completely
unrelated to the con), at that.
It's been nasty on occasion, too, though (other places, other cons). No
argument.
> * Free, convenient parking.
Urban sprawl (tm).
> * Affordable hotel rooms with comfortable beds and little else (no wet
> bar, no VCR, no mints or cookies on the pillows).
Oh YEAH.
> * Places to hang out with friends where we don't get told we're blocking a
> hallway, fire escape, elevator, etc.
Well, *are* you blocking a hallway, fire escape, elevator, etc?
I've been in lots of hanging out situations with friends, and never been
given a movealong. Lobbies. Atria. Ends of corridors. Room parties. Even
stair wells (that weren't fire escapes).
Clearly, one thing that could help this is a con in a place that has an
actual outdoors connected to it.
* (tm)
> * A membership that is affordable ($30 or less at the door).
If they're affordable enough earlier, it seems reasonable to have to pay
more at the door for the luxury of refusing to commit earlier.
> * A pool that isn't mysteriously "closed for maintenance" during the whole
> convention ;-)
Pools are fun. Not requisite, but fun.
> But, maybe I'm an old fart who just isn't handling change as well as I
> used to...
>
> Regards,
> Fred Maxwell
Hey, Fred Maxwell (and anybody else who's interested), have I got a deal
for you: how about a con that
* is gonna show many hours of eps of tv shows that haven't been on in a
decade or two, and were in limited distribution in the first place
(yes,including the infamous "pollinating" ep of Quark)
* is gonna have a con suite with decent food (not sure about the beer,
though, but it's not impossible -- and the place is three blocks from
a damn fine brewpub, anyway)
* A hotel staff that is wiftily cheerful (what there is of it: it's a
reely small hotel)
* free convenient parking (street, just outside the hotel, no meters)
* hotel rooms with comfortable beds and little else that cost
$65-85/double INCLUDING A FULL CONTINENTAL BREAKFAST (how do fresh-baked
chocolate chocolate-chip muffins sound... )
[sorry, no quads: one bed per room, unless it's twin beds, which appear
two to a room]
* backup hotels that cost a little more, but not much (and also serve
breffus)
* lots of places to hang out, including a large front porch with rockers
and a brick patio with umbrella tables
* a membership that is $40 at the door (but is $25 until 8/15, and was
$15 until 3/15)
* an ocean with a sandy beach a block from the hotel (they aren't gonna
close it for maintenance: promise <G>)
and, by the way
* a small, friendly con in a completely informal environment
* interesting and unusual panel topics
* a wide selection of neat places to eat
(really inexpensive to seriously worth-it pricey) within four blocks
(car unnecessary)
* the option of a clambake
* incredibly beautiful wild places very near by
Yes, it's still possible. There are, I admit, transportation costs -- but
if one comes by bus (or parks one's car) and takes the ferry on foot, it
doesn't cost all that much (the ferry is $10 rt for a passenger), and one
doesn't need a car here. Really. (Well, to get to the really wilder places
-- but we've negotiated a special car rental rate. <G>)
What con?
Viable Paradise II: SF on Martha's Vineyard
mentioned above. I just posted our current progress report on
rec.arts.sf.announce, but it didn't post either here at alt.fandom.cons or
rec.arts.sf.fandom, although I tried (there seems to be a usenet problem
somewhere). I'm gonna try to repost, but in the meantime, visit
http://www.tiac.net/users/rmontor/paradise
to find out more.
And come visit us: this place really is a Viable Paradise.
Rae M
Viable Paradise: SF on Martha's Vineyard
October 2-4, 1998
Martha's Vineyard Science Fiction Association, Ltd
PO Box 3404, Oak Bluffs, MA 02557
http://www.tiac.net/users/rmontor/paradise
para...@rmontor.tiac.net
Bruce Sheffer
> What do I want from a con?
>
> * Some corny old movies that show all night.
> * A con suite with sodas, beer, and a variety of snack foods.
> * A friendly hotel staff that doesn't look down on us.
> * Free, convenient parking.
> * Affordable hotel rooms with comfortable beds and little else (no wet bar, no VCR, no mints or
> cookies on the pillows).
> * Places to hang out with friends where we don't get told we're blocking a hallway, fire escape,
> elevator, etc.
> * A membership that is affordable ($30 or less at the door).
> * A pool that isn't mysteriously "closed for maintenance" during the whole convention ;-)
>
Thanks for the post, Fred. I want all of these too (though I think that
$45 for a 3 day membership is quite reasonable) I agree that many
conventions suffer from feature envy and end up content-poor.
My major beef with movies is that they seem to be the same from con to
con and usually just recent releases that I could rent at blockbuster.
I would prefer a fare of more eclectic and thought provoking movies,
preferably those that are difficult to find to rent. Who hasn't seen
the Indiana Jones trilogy? or the Star Wars Trilogy? or Gundam?
Lori
goer having gone to my first con in 1982. I have many of the same found
memories you do. I still enjoy that type of convention (and run one of
that type), but I'm afraid we've had to give in to some of the things
you don't like. Not always because we want to, but because fans have
changed a lot. At least in this area (Central Florida). The fan-run low
keyed conventions have given way to the glitzy pro-run media shows that
charge a lot and give little. There are only 4 fan-run shows of any size
still run in all of Florida. And these have been loosing money
(including ours).
It used to be I found out about a con by picking up it's flyer at
another convention or a comic book store. A lot of what I call
"New-style" fans don't go to stores or don't know what a literature
table is. The only way to reach them is by their favorite media, TV
(which we can't aford yet, but are trying to). And maybe by ads in the
main stream magazines since most don't get the fan mags like Locus (is
it still published?). Most New-style fans don't hang out together,
aren't members of clubs, and generally have little contact with other
fans. (I have done some research into this). It used to be being a
sci-fi fan was an underground-type thing when we used to communicate
with each other and tell each other what was going on since things were
so hard to find. Now, sci-fi is all the rage. You have the big-budget
movies, tons of TV shows and books, and the smaller/cheaper things (like
comics - once one of the few places you could find anything sci-fi or
fantasy oriented) are dying out to them.
A lot of NS (New-Style from here out) fans never watched the original
Star Trek, never had to search and search and search to find a book or
collectible. They now go to the local Walmart and pick it up.
So I think the rising cost of conventions is due to the changes in
fandom. In order to attrack the biggest amount of people, which we need
to do to pay the high costs of hotels, guests, publicity and more, we
have to cater to them as well. TachyCon has been trying to find a
balance for years, and I think we've succeeded to some extent. We try to
keep our costs as low as possible, free parking is a pre-requisite to my
signing a hotel, and try to have something for everyone. Unfortunately,
our old "get together and discuss it" panels are very poorly attended
(many we've had to cancel because no one shows up), while the media
guests talking for an hour are packed. We have 24 hour programming and a
lot of the old-style things (games, video room, art show, etc), that
media cons usually don't have.
And we are thinking about trying a "lets get together" relaxacon again
in the near future. Just to see if anyone will come. I expect we might
get 50 people. We'll see.
> Somewhere along the way, those organizing the conventions got the idea that I expected them to
> entertain me. When that happened, more money was spent on guests. More rooms were booked for panel
> discussions on everything from costuming to whether there should be more panels. The dinky rooms
> where we'd wander in and laugh at some old Godzilla movie were replaced with palacial ballrooms
> seating hundreds at a time showing recent, serious science fiction movies.
I've started seeing television ads for conventions I used to attend!
We attracted a good crowd that
> understood what conventions were about without television ads. We did not need to encourage 12 year
> olds who want to dress up as their favorite Power Ranger to show up. Someone seems to have decided
> that the success of a convention can be measured in attendees. I think it can be measured in the
> percentage of repeat attendees.
>
> I go to conventions to see old friends and make new ones. Why should I end up paying a premium so
> the con can run a recent movie through a crappy portable projector hooked to P.A. speakers when I
> could go rent the movie at Blockbuster? Do I really need to see another panel on "How to write good
> and get published"? Do I want to be trapped in a hotel because I'm afraid the parking garage will
> be full when I get back from lunch? Do I want to pay for some author to show up there and push his
> books?
>
> What do I want from a con?
>
> * Some corny old movies that show all night.
> * A con suite with sodas, beer, and a variety of snack foods.
> * A friendly hotel staff that doesn't look down on us.
> * Free, convenient parking.
> * Affordable hotel rooms with comfortable beds and little else (no wet bar, no VCR, no mints or
> cookies on the pillows).
> * Places to hang out with friends where we don't get told we're blocking a hallway, fire escape,
> elevator, etc.
> * A membership that is affordable ($30 or less at the door).
> * A pool that isn't mysteriously "closed for maintenance" during the whole convention ;-)
>
Lori Brown
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TachyCon: The FUN Florida Science Fiction Convention
Check our website:www.ao.net/~tachycon
Email: Tach...@ao.net - Phone: 407/628-1454 - Fax: 407/650-2519
P.O. Box 3382 - Winter Park, FL 32790-3382
Celebrating our 10th Anniversary in 1999!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Rachel
> And we are thinking about trying a "lets get together" relaxacon again
> in the near future. Just to see if anyone will come. I expect we might
> get 50 people. We'll see.
Well, I've been attending cons for 10 years now. The face of the con
has changed considerably in those short years - they used to be
"get-togethers". But with computers allowing us to meet other fans
without having to travel to cons, the need for a con to be primarily a
"get-together" has diminished. Why should I take days off work and
spend all this money on con registration, hotel fees, travel costs, when
I can just jump on irc and meets other like-minded people?
To continue to attract people, cons needed to find other avenues.
Suddenly they're required to "put on a show". The costs are being
passed on down the line for these shows. It's depressing, almost the
end of an era.
Rach
fmax...@erols.com
"Laurie D. T. Mann" <lm...@city-net.com> wrote:
> One hotel reality most of the non-con-runners aren't dealing
> with is that most hotels now want function space rental money
> even if the con sells out hundreds of hotel room nights. It used to be
> that con hotels were happy if you filled up their sleeping rooms -
> they used to kick in function space FOR FREE. No longer. They
> want banquets and food functions and function space rental.
> These issues are driving up con membership prices.
You have a very good point and one that I did not know or address. That
argues even further against running multiple panel rooms, film rooms, and so
forth.
Bargaining is an art in which many (not all) con committees lack skill. Any
hotel is going to WANT to fill the sleeping rooms and still charge for
function rooms, food catering, and so forth. The ritzier downtown hotels
tend to be more inflexible in their pricing. But, if the hotel has a chance
to fill 80% of its rooms with convention guests, and keep the restaurant and
bar busy, it's usually possible to work a good deal. I know what government
pricing on hotel rooms is and the government, that probably brings a lot
fewer person-nights of business to the hotel, gets a better deal than a
convention does.
I have actually seen cases where convention committees advertised the
location of a convention BEFORE completing negotiating the pricing and
services with the hotel. Needless to say, they didn't get the best deal
possible.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Andre Lieven
Rachel (Rach...@Drexel.edu) writes:
> Lori wrote:
>> And we are thinking about trying a "lets get together" relaxacon again
>> in the near future. Just to see if anyone will come. I expect we might
>> get 50 people. We'll see.
>
> has changed considerably in those short years - they used to be
> "get-togethers". But with computers allowing us to meet other fans
> without having to travel to cons, the need for a con to be primarily a
> "get-together" has diminished. Why should I take days off work and
> spend all this money on con registration, hotel fees, travel costs, when
> I can just jump on irc and meets other like-minded people?
>
> To continue to attract people, cons needed to find other avenues.
> Suddenly they're required to "put on a show". The costs are being
> passed on down the line for these shows. It's depressing, almost the
> end of an era.
I have seen this effect on cons, too. For the record, I have been attending
cons for 21 years now, and this year, I'm concom on three cons. Not
counting staff jobs.
Over that time, the demographic of congoing has evolved, and many longer
running cons have had to adapt. Some have done it very well, to mine eye.
Examples would include Lunacon, and Philcon.
Part of the usual problem is that many of the older publicity methods don't
reach the newer lot of potential fans. Doing good net publicity is nowadays
a must. You're quite correct, Rachel, that many sucessful cons now put on
" shows ". But, many of us " old guarders " still like the non media fan
lit cons, where we can see our old friends, and meet new ones, while seeing
some of our favourite writers, and artists. No matter how you sell it,
net communications don't givw me what I get from being with my friends in
person, or the sound of a voice on the phone. But, that's me.
Certainly over the yeras the costs of congoing have gone up. My first
Worldcon was back in '79, in the UK, and the at the door price was
13 pounds ( about 30 Canadian dollars ). At todays exchange rates,
BucConeer will cost an at the door person eight times as much.
This is an example of how much the costs of conrunning have gone up, in
the last nineteen years. I have had the opportunity to work on the hotel
end of cons over the last decade, and this is the prime area of the cost
increases. Heck, the fact that the Boston in 01 bid is now set in Orlando
proves this ( BTW, had Boston held their con in Boston, con room rates
would have been around $200 US, a night. This is NOT a factor at the concoms
control ).
Beyond this, much of this thread is getting mixed up in comparing lit
cons, and media cons. I go to both ( I'm concom on both types ). But,
there are enough differences in the way that they have to spend money,
that the analogy breaks down fast.
Lit type cons, usually don't advertise on TV. Their market is too diffuse
to be reached cost effectively with this method. But, if you've a Trek
or B5 con to promo, then a well targeted ad, set into one of these shows,
is a very good idea, as you have the need to get a good sized crowd, to
cover the added costs ( fees ) of the media guests.
I would be delighted if the cost of congoing could be held down. But, the
hotel and hospitality industry is one that is bucking the trend of low
inflation of costs, and unless we all want to go to only Tentcon...
Andre
--
" The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some
other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "
David Gelernter, " 1939 "
Cyohtee
: And I begin to wonder, here, now, if there isn't a conceptual rift
: somewhere we've fallen into: a set of assumptions that led us astray.
: Lemme see if I can find (at least one) such a set:
: 1. Cons are good.
I can agree to that...
: 2. Attending cons is, therefore, good.
I can also agree to that...
: 3. Fandom is, by nature, inclusionary: there are no "outsiders" in
: fandom. (It can be argued that fandom is *composed* of "outsiders",
: but that's another discussion. <G>)
BZZT! Sorry, have to disagree heavily here. There are billions of
outsiders. They are the ones who do not want to be a part of Fandom, Most
of them have no idea we are here. Some know we exist, but do not bother
us. Then there are the ones who know about us, show up at a con, and pay
their memberships, but don't understand that it is not a "Ticket". They
can cause lots of problems at conventions. They don't care about anything
but their good time, and they expect us to put on the show for them,
provide the beer so they can get sloshed, and then smile and thank them for
taking all, contributing nothing but their "Ticket Price", and being rude
and disruptive to the Fen because they are the "Weirdos and Freaks" that
provide them with their carnival side show entertainment. I for one could
do without them, even if that is exclusionary...
: 4. All the fans who want to come to a given con, then, should be
: accommodated.
Nope, sorry, I disagree again. All of the Fen who are putting together the
con and doing the work should be accomodated. The rest can either enjoy
what the others have put together and not complain, or they can get
involved and put their "Money where their mouth is" and add what they want
to see at a con. Plus you cannot, and I must stress CANNOT, accomodate
everyone, because when you do one thing to accomodate one person there will
be another person who the only way to accomodate them is to NOT do what you
do for the first person. I am NOT wanting to start an old argument again,
but the best example I have seen is the S&M/B&D Panels at a Con. You either
have them and accomodate those who want them, or you don't have them to
accomodate the ones who will not show up if you do. Can't win there, have
to choose who to accomodate.
: Oops.
Yes, Oops, but I think not for why you said it...
: If it is the case that the more fans come to a particular con, the more
: that con is going to cost (space costs, population density required to
: support large enough venues), that begins, possibly, to shed a little
: light on the problem. And it seems to argue strongly for smaller cons, in
: general.
I can agree with you if that means you do NOT want to try to include all
peoples wants in a con, and just advocate throwing the kind of con you and
the others helping put your con together want to see and thus accomodating
only the people who like the same kind of con you like. This of course
means that the ones who don't like "Your kind of Con" will need to put on
their own con, and that means more cons, which I personally like. I would
love to go to more cons, and I am not so picky. I can usually find
something I like at any con I go to.
And of course, as always, YMMV :)
Cyo
"Just be careful." -- Sisko
"Commander, there is no careful way to question a Klingon." -- Odo
fmax...@erols.com
Rachel <Rach...@Drexel.edu> wrote:
> Well, I've been attending cons for 10 years now. The face of the con
> has changed considerably in those short years - they used to be
> "get-togethers". But with computers allowing us to meet other fans
> without having to travel to cons, the need for a con to be primarily a
> "get-together" has diminished. Why should I take days off work and
> spend all this money on con registration, hotel fees, travel costs, when
> I can just jump on irc and meets other like-minded people?
Meeting people on IRC is not the same as meeting people in the flesh. You
can't take someone out to dinner on IRC. You don't see facial expressions,
hear subtleties of intonation, and pick up all of the other communication
cues we've developed as a species. You can't decide to meet up for the
2:00AM showing of the first Flash Gordon episode. It's just not the same.
On the other hand, people who use IRC are much more attractive than people
who go to cons. Many of the women on IRC look like Pamela Anderson, Sandra
Bullock, or Jennifer Aniston while the men frequently look like Tom Cruise or
Mel Gibson. At least that's what they tell me... ;-)
> To continue to attract people, cons needed to find other avenues.
> Suddenly they're required to "put on a show". The costs are being
> passed on down the line for these shows. It's depressing, almost the
> end of an era.
I don't accept it. I think that there are enough intelligent, motivated fans
that would be happy to have a con with less programming and more interaction.
Bernard Peek
Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> writes
>What do I want from a con?
>
>* Some corny old movies that show all night.
>* A con suite with sodas, beer, and a variety of snack foods.
>* A friendly hotel staff that doesn't look down on us.
>* Free, convenient parking.
>* Affordable hotel rooms with comfortable beds and little else (no wet bar, no
>VCR, no mints or
>cookies on the pillows).
>* Places to hang out with friends where we don't get told we're blocking a
>hallway, fire escape,
>elevator, etc.
>* A membership that is affordable ($30 or less at the door).
>* A pool that isn't mysteriously "closed for maintenance" during the whole
>convention ;-)
>
>But, maybe I'm an old fart who just isn't handling change as well as I used
>to...
That may be true, but you're not alone in that.
The conventions you like still exist, but may be a little harder to find
because they don't advertise on TV. But if there aren't any to your
liking in your area then start your own.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
(Note the new address.)
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
>
> Nope, sorry, I disagree again. All of the Fen who are putting together the
> con and doing the work should be accomodated. The rest can either enjoy
> what the others have put together and not complain, or they can get
> involved and put their "Money where their mouth is" and add what they want
> to see at a con.
Wrong! I put my money down at the door. If I pay $45 to attend a convention, it is not so that the
con committee and volunteers can use my money to entertain themselves. If I pay for dinner at a
restaurant, it is not so the staff can buy and prepare food for themselves that I am allowed to
share but not complain about. Why is a con different?
The paying convention "customers" are as important to the success of a convention as all those
people planning and running it.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
P Nielsen Hayden
>Cyohtee wrote:
>>
>> Nope, sorry, I disagree again. All of the Fen who are putting together the
>> con and doing the work should be accomodated. The rest can either enjoy
>> what the others have put together and not complain, or they can get
>> involved and put their "Money where their mouth is" and add what they want
>> to see at a con.
>
>Wrong! I put my money down at the door. If I pay $45 to attend a
>convention, it is not so that the con committee and volunteers can use my
>money to entertain themselves. If I pay for dinner at a restaurant, it is
>not so the staff can buy and prepare food for themselves that I am allowed
>to share but not complain about. Why is a con different?
>
>The paying convention "customers" are as important to the success of a
>convention as all those people planning and running it.
This is an old argument, and you're not wrong to advise against arrogance
and complacency. But that's not what Cyohtee is advocating.
C's point, rather, is that conventions are more like a barn raising than
like a restaurant. If cons were really comparable to a business, where you
"put your money down at the door" and have the right to demand a "customer
is always right" attitude, then they'd cost several hundred dollars just for
registration, exclusive of room and board. Which, not incidentally, is what
professional conventions tend to cost.
In fact volunteer-run SF cons are a community effort, and that's what keeps
them cheap -- and make no mistake, even in the '90s, they're comparatively
cheap.
I've been agreeing with a lot of what you've been saying in this thread up
until now, but I can't buy your restaurant model.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Elisabeth Carey
>
> Cyohtee wrote:
> >
> > Nope, sorry, I disagree again. All of the Fen who are putting together the
> > con and doing the work should be accomodated. The rest can either enjoy
> > what the others have put together and not complain, or they can get
> > involved and put their "Money where their mouth is" and add what they want
> > to see at a con.
>
> Wrong! I put my money down at the door. If I pay $45 to attend a convention, it is not so that the
> con committee and volunteers can use my money to entertain themselves. If I pay for dinner at a
> restaurant, it is not so the staff can buy and prepare food for themselves that I am allowed to
> share but not complain about. Why is a con different?
>
> people planning and running it.
The restaurant staff are being paid to serve you a good meal. The
convention committee and staff at a fan-run science fiction convention
are NOT being paid to entertain you. They are doing it for free; the
amount you pay for a membership in the convetion would not remotely
cover the cost of their time and labor in putting on the con if they
were doing it for pay. "Customers" are _not wanted_ at fan-run
conventions; _members_ are what's wanted, people who have come to
participate, not to be passively entertained, who pay their
_membership fee_ in order to help defray the costs of putting on the
convention.
A fan-run convention is not a commercial transaction. If you think it
is, you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the event.
Lis Carey
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> The basic point that the first poster seems to me, to be making, is that
> paying a fee does not buy unlimited control of a given event.
I agree. All I ask is that those running the convention not take the attitude that those of us
attending have no right to complain. That was what the first poster said:
>> The rest can either enjoy what the others have put together and not complain,
>> or they can get involved...
A concom has a responsibility to the paying membership. If I voice an intelligent criticism or
suggestion, I do not expect it to be ignored because I am not on the committee.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Andre Lieven
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted (fmax...@erols.com) writes:
> Cyohtee wrote:
>>
>> Nope, sorry, I disagree again. All of the Fen who are putting together the
>> what the others have put together and not complain, or they can get
>> to see at a con.
>
> Wrong! I put my money down at the door. If I pay $45 to attend a convention, it is not so that the
> con committee and volunteers can use my money to entertain themselves. If I pay for dinner at a
> restaurant, it is not so the staff can buy and prepare food for themselves that I am allowed to
> share but not complain about. Why is a con different?
>
> The paying convention "customers" are as important to the success of a convention as all those
> people planning and running it.
The basic point that the first poster seems to me, to be making, is that
paying a fee does not buy unlimited control of a given event.
Examples: You pay your nine bucks to see a film. You, as a paying
customer, have NO say over the specific content of said film. Your
control is limited to the decision to attend the event, and if one finds
the event violently not to one's liking, to attempt to get a refund on
that basis. That's it.
Putting on a con, is up to those doing it. If they are wise, the concom
will try as best they can, to meet the desires of their target audience.
But, this will not always be possible. Thus, there is an element of
" buyer beware " to attending a con that one has no previous experience
with. If you go to, say, Toronto Trek, don't be too surprised that it's
not a lit based con. Also, don't expect to see some Trek actors at
Lunacon, when there is nothing in the flyers about such guests attending.
The " paying customers " are quite important to the success of any con.
But, only those actually working the con, will have a significant input
into the specifics of the con. So, you have three choices. Volunteer,
to have your input, go only to those cons that you have found congenial,
or examine the info sources for new ( to you ) cons very carefully, and be
ready for some of them to not quite be your cup of tea.
Hey, I've not always really liked every film I've gone to see. Thems the
breaks....
Zev Sero
Montor) wrote:
>I am certainly willing to sign the petition for Nuking the Minibars. (Ooh!
>How convenient! Cute little cheese and crackers sets with scrumptious
>little plastic knives, and a dear little bottle of soda! How marvelous!
>And it's ONLY $45! <G>)
They do make useful fridges, though. Just stack the contents neatly
next to the fridge, so the staff who come to check usage can tell
that you haven't used anything, and when you leave put the stuff back.
I've never had a problem with it, or ever had to pay for something I
didn't use.
--
Zev Sero Programming: the art of debugging an empty text file
zs...@bigfoot.com
Jim Trash
Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> writes
>Wrong! I put my money down at the door. If I pay $45 to attend a convention,
>it is not so that the
>con committee and volunteers can use my money to entertain themselves. If I pay
>for dinner at a
>restaurant, it is not so the staff can buy and prepare food for themselves that
>I am allowed to
>share but not complain about. Why is a con different?
I'd say a con is different because that door money is the equivalent of
everyone shoving money in the kitty so we can all use the function space
and such.
I see a con as a party and the transaction is between the attendees of
that party.
This at the door price could be brought down by using more basic
function space though. If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
reach of some of the poorer fen.
I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
moment.
http://www.scream.demon.co.uk Jim Trash
P Nielsen Hayden
>I'd say a con is different because that door money is the equivalent of
>everyone shoving money in the kitty so we can all use the function space
>and such.
>I see a con as a party and the transaction is between the attendees of
>that party.
Yep.
>This at the door price could be brought down by using more basic
>function space though. If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
>to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
>transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
>Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
>and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
>reach of some of the poorer fen.
>I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
>in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
>moment.
Dunno about middle class or middle age. For me it would be a non-starter
simply because it would eliminate too many people with dodgy health or
physical limitations, many of whom are neither middle-class nor middle-aged.
Personally, I'm up for Adventures In the Great Outdoors, but I'm not sure
about combining the experience with that of an SF con.
Morgan
<j...@scream.demon.co.uk> said:
>Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
>and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
>reach of some of the poorer fen.
>I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
>in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
>moment.
To hell with being middle aged or middle class! (I'm neither)
But I won't spend a weekend under canvas for *anyone*.
Where, for instance, are the comfy chairs by the bar going to go?
--
Morgan
"Come to the edge." he said. They said "We are afraid." "Come
to the edge." he said. They came. He pushed them...and they flew.
The Person Your Mother Warned You About
Jim Trash <j...@scream.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
>in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
>moment.
I expect it's more for things like weather (I don't know how YOU feel about
being outside in the rain, but I, my books and my guitar don't care much
for it.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK "Go not to the programmers for counsel,
mailto:phyd...@liii.com for they will say both 1 and 0"
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux -- Elvish saying
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
From: Jim Trash <j...@scream.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons,rec.arts.sf.fandom
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:40:03 +0100
This at the door price could be brought down by using more basic
function space though. If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
reach of some of the poorer fen.
I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
moment.
When the Arthur Ransome Society had their AGM in the Broads just over
a year ago, the organizers went way over budget because they couldn't
locate an available facility in the area, and rented a tent. Usually,
we tend to use village halls.
73, doug
Rachel
> Meeting people on IRC is not the same as meeting people in the flesh. You
> can't take someone out to dinner on IRC. You don't see facial expressions,
> hear subtleties of intonation, and pick up all of the other communication
> cues we've developed as a species. You can't decide to meet up for the
> 2:00AM showing of the first Flash Gordon episode. It's just not the same.
This is quite true. But for the "younger generation" of people, the
internet might be their primary form of communication. The same way the
telephone revolutionized communications, the internet will do the same.
I certainly agree that IRC is not nearly as good as face-to-face
communication. But it's a hell of a lot less expensive....
> On the other hand, people who use IRC are much more attractive than people
> who go to cons. Many of the women on IRC look like Pamela Anderson, Sandra
> Bullock, or Jennifer Aniston while the men frequently look like Tom Cruise or
> Mel Gibson. At least that's what they tell me... ;-)
hehehehehehehe. Simple: ask for their web page with their picture on
it. :P
Rach
Betsy Perry
Zev Sero <zs...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>[minibars] do make useful fridges, though. Just stack the contents neatly
>that you haven't used anything, and when you leave put the stuff back.
>I've never had a problem with it, or ever had to pay for something I
>didn't use.
At least twice, I have broken the seal on minibars, only to discover
that the minibar was not fully stocked according to the accompanying
sheet. Once, the hotel actually billed me for the missing object (a
$6.00 bag of nuts), and it took some arguing to get the nuts removed
from my bill.
Why did I continue to break the seal on the minibar? Because this
particular hotel, the selection of my employer, placed the water
glasses behind the locked-and-sealed cabinet doors. Grrr.
I don't think the misstocked bars were malicious, incidentally; I'm
sure they were the result of an oversight. Being a chambermaid is
hard enough without having to verify a 20-item checklist of
oddly-shaped objects.
So YMMV, as usual; I'm not going to break another minibar seal again
unless I'm desperate enough to consume something therein.
--
Elizabeth Hanes Perry bet...@vnet.net
Victor Gonzalez
wrote:
> In <EBVcQAAD...@scream.demon.co.uk> Jim Trash
<j...@scream.demon.co.uk> writes:
[snip]
> >This at the door price could be brought down by using more basic
> >function space though. If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
> >to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
> >transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
> >Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
> >and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
> >reach of some of the poorer fen.
> >I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
> >in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
> >moment.
>
> Dunno about middle class or middle age. For me it would be a non-starter
> simply because it would eliminate too many people with dodgy health or
> physical limitations, many of whom are neither middle-class nor middle-aged.
> Personally, I'm up for Adventures In the Great Outdoors, but I'm not sure
> about combining the experience with that of an SF con.
It might be fun to try, speaking for myself. It would be cheaper, and it
would provide a very different ambiance from any SF con I've attended. And
I doubt it would become so popular that you'd have to worry about an
outdoor worldcon.
Can you get camping space near some Major Pagan Monument, Jim?
::: ::: :::
Victor Gonzalez <sq...@galaxy-7.net>
http://www.galaxy-7.net/squib
::: ::: :::
Geri Sullivan
Well, if you like folk music, come on up to Winnipeg for Baggiecon one
year. A group of about 30-45 fans do the festival together, with many of
them camping on the Manitoba prairie. Pope's Hill is hardly a Pagan
monument -- it was built for the Pope's visit a decade or two back --
but the prairie itself is a source of celebration.
When Tom Becker took me to Yosemite following Corflu Wave, we devoted a
chunk of conversation time to brainstorming how a one-shot convention
might work there. There's the Ahwahnee Hotel for those whose idea of
roughing it is when room service is late, cabins for the more
budget-minded on something of a splurge, and camping for those who love
it or are otherwise trying to save every dollar. I'd love to spend a
weekend (or a week) there with a bunch of my fannish friends who also
enjoy the Splendor of the Great Outdoors.
Geri [who, as usual, is including the fannish friends she hasn't met yet
in her El Capicon daydreams]
P.S. Oh, dear. The thing didn't have a name before. Now it's real.
--
Geri Sullivan g...@toad-hall.com
===================================
"If your cup is full, may it be again...."
-- Hunter/Garcia
Andre Lieven
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted (fmax...@erols.com) writes:
> Andre Lieven wrote:
>
>> The basic point that the first poster seems to me, to be making, is that
>> paying a fee does not buy unlimited control of a given event.
>
> attending have no right to complain. That was what the first poster said:
>
>
> A concom has a responsibility to the paying membership. If I voice an intelligent criticism or
> suggestion, I do not expect it to be ignored because I am not on the committee.
This I am in agreement with, and it is my judgement that the original
poster did not quite mean that non concom ideas will, and ought to be ignored.
There usually exists, at most cons that I've been to, a post con " bitch "
panel, where those interested in commenting, but not necessarily in joining
the concom, can voice thoughts on how the con went, and provide suggestions
on how to make it better. Though many of the comments that I've heard, over
the years, are examples of reinventing the wheel. This past weekend, at
TTrek, one commenter was heard to complain that the con had TOO many
guests ( some of whom had attended on their own nickle, w/o any
specific invites ). I admit to not following the reasoning of that
comment. If there were too many guests for her to comfortably see,
how does a reduction help anyone ?
No one on a good concom wants to ignore those who aren't on committee.
But, many of the possible comments are about things that the concom
knows about, and has dealt with, as best as they can, given hotels,
staffing, and money. But, the very best way to participate and have
your ideas put into place, is to join up.
But, as has been pointed out, the costs of a con are an order of magnitude
below that of any similar event where the organisers are paid for their
time. Thus, the two types of events are not very comparable.
Indeed, I've heard from a few folks, in person as I've not taken this
topic to the net, that cons are getting too expensive to attend. Given what
similar events cost, I'd say that we all ought to be quite happy that cons
cost as little as they do, due to the volunteer nature of the events.
Lord knows that I'm not in a position to pony up a grand in US $ to go to
a USNI conference somewhere, so the ability to go to cons, sometimes for
as little as fifty bucks ( and canadian ones at that ! ) is a good thing.
I've also been involved in some cons that don't ( or didn't ) use hotels.
My experience has shown me that this does not work too well. I Con, in
Long Island is at the SUNY campus, and this does make travel to the local
accomodations somewhat of a travail. Maplecon, in the mid 80's, was held
in the summer on a university campus. While this meant that we did have
the dorms available, this did not make many attendees happy, as few of
the folks coming from out of town appreciated the ability to sleep in a
tiny dorm, with communal facilities.
As for tents, two thoughts... rain, and the art show....
Bernard Peek
>This at the door price could be brought down by using more basic
>function space though. If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
>to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
>transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
>Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
>and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
>reach of some of the poorer fen.
>I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
>in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
>moment.
It's been suggested many times over the years. We even did it once, at
one of the Polycons in Hatfield the committee offered the use of the
lawn to anyone bringing a tent. Only two of us took them up on it.
There is a real problem in that although there are a lot of comments
about the greying of fandom, this may be in part because it's getting to
be an expensive pastime. There is probably scope for an ultra-low cost
convention in the UK, when are you thinking of running one?
Bernard Peek
<Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> writes
>In this post <EBVcQAAD...@scream.demon.co.uk>, Jim Trash
><j...@scream.demon.co.uk> said:
>>Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
>>and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
>>reach of some of the poorer fen.
>>I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
>>in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
>>moment.
>
>
>
>But I won't spend a weekend under canvas for *anyone*.
>
>Where, for instance, are the comfy chairs by the bar going to go?
They'll probably stay by the bar. I've been to a number of folk-
festivals and stayed in a tent. The bar is usually in a tent too. A
bloody big one. By comparison with folkies, SF fans are virtually
teetotal. One pub in Sidmouth had extra barrels in every available
space, including the cubboard under the stairs and on makeshift shelves
nailed to the side of the stairway.
We drank it dry five times in seven days.
Dirk A. Loedding
cyo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com (Cyohtee) wrote:
[snip]
>: 3. Fandom is, by nature, inclusionary: there are no "outsiders" in
>: fandom. (It can be argued that fandom is *composed* of "outsiders",
>: but that's another discussion. <G>)
>
>BZZT! Sorry, have to disagree heavily here. There are billions of
>outsiders. They are the ones who do not want to be a part of Fandom,
I think you're missing the point. Well, part of it, anyway. While I
agree that there are "outsiders" who are as you describe below, what I
think Rae was trying to say is that most members of fandom are
"outsiders" as far as society in general is concerned. I work in an
office with several hundred people. I know *one* person who has ever
gone to a convention...and she's a media fan, primarily interested in
Highlander. I know *one* other person who likes B5 and reads comics and
SF books. And that's *it*. Yeah, around here, I'm an outsider,
definitely, no bones about it.
[snip]
--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dirk A. Loedding <*> ju...@america.net |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Rae Montor
> On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:04:45 -0400, para...@rmontor.tiac.net (Rae
> Montor) wrote:
>
> >I am certainly willing to sign the petition for Nuking the Minibars. (Ooh!
> >How convenient! Cute little cheese and crackers sets with scrumptious
> >little plastic knives, and a dear little bottle of soda! How marvelous!
> >And it's ONLY $45! <G>)
>
> They do make useful fridges, though. Just stack the contents neatly
> next to the fridge, so the staff who come to check usage can tell
> that you haven't used anything, and when you leave put the stuff back.
> I've never had a problem with it, or ever had to pay for something I
> didn't use.
True: BTDT. Interesting: if they think they can make money on it, they'll
force us to have refrigerators. But in other hotels (where they don't, I
suspect, get the business trade as much), you have to pay extra to have a
refrigerator in your room, if you can get one at all.
There's a lesson in that somewhere... <seditious g>
Rae M
Morgan
hall.com> said:
>When Tom Becker took me to Yosemite following Corflu Wave, we devoted a
>chunk of conversation time to brainstorming how a one-shot convention
>might work there. There's the Ahwahnee Hotel for those whose idea of
>roughing it is when room service is late, cabins for the more
>budget-minded on something of a splurge, and camping for those who love
>it or are otherwise trying to save every dollar. I'd love to spend a
>weekend (or a week) there with a bunch of my fannish friends who also
>enjoy the Splendor of the Great Outdoors.
>
>Geri [who, as usual, is including the fannish friends she hasn't met yet
>in her El Capicon daydreams]
>
>P.S. Oh, dear. The thing didn't have a name before. Now it's real.
Where do I sign up?
One thing 'tho, is we really should explain 'cabin' to folks. I was
expecting rather more than a large square shaped canvas tent, on a
wooden base with a wooden door, and two single iron bedsteads contained
therein.
Running water, for one thing. That, I was expecting in a 'cabin'.
:-)
Laurie D. T. Mann
think there's at least 150 rooms some 5,000 ft. above sea level.
Peace, quiet, lots of deer and decent beer. Nice hiking
even for the less physically active (like me), better hiking
for the more adventurous. And, for the truly ambitious, you
can always take the several day side trip to hike up the
rest of the way.
Geri Sullivan wrote:
> When Tom Becker took me to Yosemite following Corflu Wave, we devoted a
> chunk of conversation time to brainstorming how a one-shot convention
> might work there. There's the Ahwahnee Hotel for those whose idea of
> roughing it is when room service is late, cabins for the more
> budget-minded on something of a splurge, and camping for those who love
> it or are otherwise trying to save every dollar. I'd love to spend a
> weekend (or a week) there with a bunch of my fannish friends who also
> enjoy the Splendor of the Great Outdoors.
--
Laurie D. T. Mann
FanHistoriCon 8 Planning http://fanac.org/timebinders/fanh8plan.html
David G. Bell
Ber...@shrdlu.com "Bernard Peek" writes:
> In article <EBVcQAAD...@scream.demon.co.uk>, Jim Trash
> <j...@scream.demon.co.uk> writes
>
> >This at the door price could be brought down by using more basic
> >function space though. If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
> >to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
> >transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
> >Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
> >and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
> >reach of some of the poorer fen.
> >I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
> >in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
> >moment.
>
> It's been suggested many times over the years. We even did it once, at
> one of the Polycons in Hatfield the committee offered the use of the
> lawn to anyone bringing a tent. Only two of us took them up on it.
>
> There is a real problem in that although there are a lot of comments
> about the greying of fandom, this may be in part because it's getting to
> be an expensive pastime. There is probably scope for an ultra-low cost
> convention in the UK, when are you thinking of running one?
Unfortunately, the latest batch of rules to hit us farmers mean that it
would be bloody expensive to put the convention on right here in the
barn.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> There is a real problem in that although there are a lot of comments
> about the greying of fandom, this may be in part because it's getting to
> be an expensive pastime.
Ding! We have a winner. That's part of my point. No longer can a college/high-school student plan
on a fun weekend at a con unless he/she is MUCH better off financially than most. $250 (US) is a
conservative estimate for the cost of a 3-day weekend con (room, membership, transportation, eating
out for a half-dozen meals, etc.). When fast food restaurants are paying them under $6/hour, that's
a lot of burger flipping! You are literally talking about a student with a part-time job working a
month to pay for a convention!
Is it any wonder that there are a lot more middle-aged fans at cons nowadays?
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> At least twice, I have broken the seal on minibars, only to discover
> that the minibar was not fully stocked according to the accompanying
> sheet. Once, the hotel actually billed me for the missing object (a
> $6.00 bag of nuts), and it took some arguing to get the nuts removed
> from my bill.
FYI: Most of the minibars have hinges held on with phillips head screws.
Once, while on a business trip, I tried to buy one of the $1.00 Cokes from a hotel vending machine.
It ate my money and the staff refused a refund saying that I would have to complain to the company
that ran the Coke machines.
I had a Coke. Several in fact. And some chocolate, nuts, and other snacks. But I never broke the
seal on the mini-bar.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> fmax...@erols.com wrote:
> > On the other hand, people who use IRC are much more attractive than people
> > who go to cons. Many of the women on IRC look like Pamela Anderson, Sandra
> > Bullock, or Jennifer Aniston while the men frequently look like Tom Cruise or
> > Mel Gibson. At least that's what they tell me... ;-)
>
> hehehehehehehe. Simple: ask for their web page with their picture on
> it. :P
Doesn't do a lot of good. Scanners are cheap and so are magazines with pictures of attractive, but
not famous, people.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Avram Grumer
Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> wrote:
> No longer can a college/high-school student plan on a fun
> weekend at a con unless he/she is MUCH better off financially
> than most. $250 (US) is a conservative estimate for the cost
> of a 3-day weekend con (room, membership, transportation, eating
> out for a half-dozen meals, etc.). When fast food restaurants
> are paying them under $6/hour, that's a lot of burger flipping!
> You are literally talking about a student with a part-time job
> working a month to pay for a convention!
I was a college student just ten years ago, and a high school student four
years before that. Let me apply the con-going strategies I used then to
my memory of current convention prices.
At-the-door membership ................................. $ 40
Transportation ($50 in gas and tolls, divided
among six people in the car) .......................... $ 8
Hotel room for two nights ($250, divided among
12 people in the room) ................................ $ 21
Bread, peanut butter, and cup noodles bought at
a local supermarket or brought from home ............... $ 10
-------------------------------------------------------------
Total .................................................. $ 79
No, I'm not exaggerating. I've been one of _more_than_ twelve people in a
con hotel room. Not recently. I'm old now, and have a steady girlfriend,
and we like beds. That's part of getting older. (Fortunately, another
part of getting older is having a real job and being able to afford a
hotel room and restaurant meals.)
--
Avram Grumer | av...@bigfoot.com | http://www.bigfoot.com/~avram/
Go not to the Net for counsel, for it will say both "Me too!" and "Nazi!"
Morgan E. Smith
like Pennsic?
Morgan Smith
Cyohtee
: I think you're missing the point. Well, part of it, anyway. While I
: agree that there are "outsiders" who are as you describe below, what I
: think Rae was trying to say is that most members of fandom are
: "outsiders" as far as society in general is concerned. I work in an
: office with several hundred people. I know *one* person who has ever
: gone to a convention...and she's a media fan, primarily interested in
: Highlander. I know *one* other person who likes B5 and reads comics and
: SF books. And that's *it*. Yeah, around here, I'm an outsider,
: definitely, no bones about it.
No, you missed mine. You said we were this big inclusive group and no one
was an outsider in here. I pointed out the outsiders who come to cons and
disrupt things for the Fen. You took it to mean that we weren't outsiders
in the outside world when what I was saying was that there are outsiders in
our little world.
Cyo
Ferengi Rules Of Acquisition
162 - Even in the worst of times someone turns a profit.
Ray Radlein
>
> I work in an office with several hundred people. I know *one*
> person who has ever gone to a convention...and she's a media fan,
> primarily interested in Highlander. I know *one* other person who
> likes B5 and reads comics and SF books. And that's *it*. Yeah,
> around here, I'm an outsider, definitely, no bones about it.
As a counterpoint: I work in an office with about a dozen people. If I
were to make a Heinlein joke, six of us would almost certainly get it.
Of the others, two are huge media SF fans. The company outing to go see
the last Star Trek movie was actually better attended than next
weekend's company picnic will be.
- Ray R.
--
********************************************************************
"I've got three paperclips, a toaster, and some pantyhose. If
I can find a bar of chocolate and some hairspray, I can make
myself a suit of BIO-BOOSTER ARMOR!" -- MacGuyver
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
********************************************************************
Andre Lieven
Cyohtee (cyo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com) writes:
> Out of the ether Dirk A. Loedding <ju...@america.net> rose up and issued forth:
>
> : I think you're missing the point. Well, part of it, anyway. While I
> : agree that there are "outsiders" who are as you describe below, what I
> : think Rae was trying to say is that most members of fandom are
> : gone to a convention...and she's a media fan, primarily interested in
> : Highlander. I know *one* other person who likes B5 and reads comics and
> : SF books. And that's *it*. Yeah, around here, I'm an outsider,
> : definitely, no bones about it.
>
> was an outsider in here. I pointed out the outsiders who come to cons and
> disrupt things for the Fen. You took it to mean that we weren't outsiders
> in the outside world when what I was saying was that there are outsiders in
> our little world.
I think that the point is that we are all outsiders, depending on how
we're measuring at the time.
The folks at a con are all a community, if they wish it. No one is to
be purposely left out, although it might take some time for any given fan
to find their particular niche in the community.
Then there are the floks who are not a part of this community, don't want
to be, but " use " the con as a apringboard to what it is that they want.
Those people with the inability to understand the strength of a sprinkler head
at Disclave 97 come to mind.
Then, there are what we fans appear to be to the great hoard who have no
interest in any of our activities, either social or literature. There,
we're the outsiders, due to our much smaller numbers.
Hey, definitions help the discussion along, yes ?
David Dyer-Bennet
> There is a real problem in that although there are a lot of comments
> about the greying of fandom, this may be in part because it's getting to
> be an expensive pastime. There is probably scope for an ultra-low cost
> convention in the UK, when are you thinking of running one?
I'm certainly older than I was when I got into fandom, but a camping con
would have been a non-starter for me at 18, too. I sometimes think the
main reason I spent so much time, my first few years of it, in the
computer center, was that it was the only air-conditioned space
available to me.
Certainly the absolute prices for everything has increased, but relative
to the general cost of living I don't see fandom having gone up so
much. I think maybe we fly to more cons and drive to fewer, and
*that's* a middle-aged (time pressured) decision that drives cost up.
And I don't share a hotel room with three friends any more either.
Actually, SF cons are a tremendous bargain compared to other
conventions.
David Dyer-Bennet
>
> Cyohtee wrote:
> >
> > Nope, sorry, I disagree again. All of the Fen who are putting together the
> > con and doing the work should be accomodated. The rest can either enjoy
> > what the others have put together and not complain, or they can get
> > to see at a con.
>
> Wrong! I put my money down at the door. If I pay $45 to attend a convention, it is not so that the
> con committee and volunteers can use my money to entertain themselves. If I pay for dinner at a
> restaurant, it is not so the staff can buy and prepare food for themselves that I am allowed to
> share but not complain about. Why is a con different?
There are a lot of resources expended on a convention. Some of them are
money; the money comes primarily from membership sales, with a little
bit from incidentals like t-shirts, art show hanging fees, art auction
commissions, and hucksters tables. Another big chunk is volunteer
hours. Finally, there's some accumulated "goodwill" with suppliers,
existing relationships with hotels, and other hard-to-quantify
resources.
It's hard to compare the value of the different resources expended in
running a convention; however, the volunteer hours probably constitute
an abolute majority of the value. I did a very rough calculation for a
presentation last Minicon, based on what we know about hours for various
classes of volunteers, and equating those to money through
vaguely-reasonable hourly wage rates, and THAT certainly showed the
volunteer hours being the majority of the value.
And why do the volunteers do it? To have fun, both directly (lots of
jobs are fun) and indirectly (to have the sort of convention they want
to attend).
The *failure* of a convention can be measured financially. That's not
necessarily a GOOD measure, but most conventions that fail eventually
actually go broke. The *success* of a convention can NOT be measured
financially. The success can only be measured by the happiness of the
committee who made it happen. Yes, by paying your membership you have
some stake in the convention, and if we chose to run a convention in
ways that nobody chose to come, we'd have to stop for lack of money.
But I, when I work on, say, Minicon, or 4th Street, or some such
convention, BOTH pay my membership AND spend hours, dozens to hundreds
in a year, of my scarce spare time. I enjoy some of the work; other
parts I do just because I want the convention to happen, because I enjoy
the convention. When the convention committee decides any issue, we
consider what alternatives are feasible (legally, financially,
personnel, other resources), and we pick the one *we like most*. (That
decision certainly includes considering the preferences of people not on
the committee who we want at the convention.)
I think we owe the membership buyers an accurate representation of what
we're doing (anything else is fraud), and nothing more. Remember, the
success of a convention is not measured by size or "number of people
served". This is not a conventional business. While certain types of
business organization and record-keeping are necessary, and certain
kinds of project management developed for business can be useful, the
basic measure of success is NOT anything that a business would
recognize.
> The paying convention "customers" are as important to the success of a convention as all those
> people planning and running it.
This is Heinlein's point in "The Roads Must Roll", of course.
*Everybody* is vital, even indispensable. But that also means that when
any one group starts *acting* like it is the only one that matters,
things fall apart.
David Dyer-Bennet
>
> Ding! We have a winner. That's part of my point. No longer can a college/high-school student plan
> on a fun weekend at a con unless he/she is MUCH better off financially than most. $250 (US) is a
> conservative estimate for the cost of a 3-day weekend con (room, membership, transportation, eating
> out for a half-dozen meals, etc.). When fast food restaurants are paying them under $6/hour, that's
> a lot of burger flipping! You are literally talking about a student with a part-time job working a
> month to pay for a convention!
That estimate is *way* high. That's the luxury package, and the people
at the low end of the income scale don't buy the luxury package. Put 6
people in your hotel room, pre-register, and eat out of a cooler. Drive
to the convention with 4 people in the car.
10 years ago people talked about doing a convention on $20, including
registration. These days it's more like 50 or 60 minimum. The cost of
living goes up over time, for reasons we have no control over.
And around here fast-food restaurants seem to be paying over $7/hr.
Geri Sullivan
> >chunk of conversation time to brainstorming how a one-shot convention
> >might work there. There's the Ahwahnee Hotel for those whose idea of
> >roughing it is when room service is late, cabins for the more
> >budget-minded on something of a splurge, and camping for those who love
> >it or are otherwise trying to save every dollar. I'd love to spend a
> >weekend (or a week) there with a bunch of my fannish friends who also
> >enjoy the Splendor of the Great Outdoors.
> >
> >in her El Capicon daydreams]
> >
> >P.S. Oh, dear. The thing didn't have a name before. Now it's real.
>
> Where do I sign up?
P.S. Oh, my. Now it's got a name *and* someone who wants to join.
> One thing 'tho, is we really should explain 'cabin' to folks. I was
> expecting rather more than a large square shaped canvas tent, on a
> wooden base with a wooden door, and two single iron bedsteads contained
> therein.
Right. Gotcha. Yosemite's cabins don't have canvas walls, though there
was a small problem last year when several of them were flooded or
washed away.
Y'know, I've heard those canvas and wood floor things called "tents" and
felt similarly betrayed. Tents do not have wood floors or doors.
> Running water, for one thing. That, I was expecting in a 'cabin'.
>
> :-)
Hmmm. I've stayed in lots of camp cabins that didn't have running water.
Or electricity. If it's a "resort cabin," I expect both. (And a private
bathroom, too.) But if it's a "rustic cabin," I'd be inclined to
investigate further in order to know what I was signing up for.
Geri
Geri Sullivan
>
> In article <q4GogWAa...@shrdlu.com>
> Ber...@shrdlu.com "Bernard Peek" writes:
>
> > It's been suggested many times over the years. We even did it once, at
> > one of the Polycons in Hatfield the committee offered the use of the
> > lawn to anyone bringing a tent. Only two of us took them up on it.
> >
> > about the greying of fandom, this may be in part because it's getting to
> > be an expensive pastime. There is probably scope for an ultra-low cost
> > convention in the UK, when are you thinking of running one?
>
> would be bloody expensive to put the convention on right here in the
> barn.
Damn. So much for the truth behind "My uncle's got a barn...."
Another one bites the dust,
Doug Wickstrom
Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> modulated the bit stream to say:
>FYI: Most of the minibars have hinges held on with phillips head screws.
>
>Once, while on a business trip, I tried to buy one of the $1.00 Cokes from a hotel vending machine.
>It ate my money and the staff refused a refund saying that I would have to complain to the company
>that ran the Coke machines.
>
>I had a Coke. Several in fact. And some chocolate, nuts, and other snacks. But I never broke the
>seal on the mini-bar.
Uh-huh. The hotel did not rob you. The vending company did not rob
you, and would have cheerfully refunded your money, even if you had
not actually lost any. But that didn't stop _you_ from robbing the
hotel.
There's a name for you. I doubt that you'll agree that it fits, but
there's a name for you.
--
Doug Wickstrom
E-mail replies go to a seldom checked mailbox. To ensure a
timely response, remove "X" and replace "aol.com" with
worldnet.att.net. AOLers reply to nimshubur. Mail from "Free"
e-mail domains goes straight to the bit bucket.
Barry Traish
>10 years ago people talked about doing a convention on $20, including
>registration. These days it's more like 50 or 60 minimum. The cost of
>living goes up over time, for reasons we have no control over.
Depends what you do for free. 4 or 5 years ago as a student I hitched to
cons, crashed on floors, ate my homemade sandwiches and drank water
(many thanks to those people who bought me drinks!). The main cost was
the membership, which I always bought as soon as possible.
--
Barry Traish
Currently reading: Aztec Century by Christopher Evans
Morgan
hall.com> said:
>Morgan wrote:
>>
>> In this post <35AFAD...@toad-hall.com>, Geri Sullivan <gfs@toad-
>> hall.com> said:
>> >When Tom Becker took me to Yosemite following Corflu Wave, we devoted a
>> >chunk of conversation time to brainstorming how a one-shot convention
>> >might work there. There's the Ahwahnee Hotel for those whose idea of
>> >roughing it is when room service is late, cabins for the more
>> >budget-minded on something of a splurge, and camping for those who love
>> >it or are otherwise trying to save every dollar. I'd love to spend a
>> >weekend (or a week) there with a bunch of my fannish friends who also
>> >enjoy the Splendor of the Great Outdoors.
>> >
>> >Geri [who, as usual, is including the fannish friends she hasn't met yet
>> >in her El Capicon daydreams]
>> >
>> >P.S. Oh, dear. The thing didn't have a name before. Now it's real.
>>
>> Where do I sign up?
>
>P.S. Oh, my. Now it's got a name *and* someone who wants to join.
Sounds up and running to me.
>
>> One thing 'tho, is we really should explain 'cabin' to folks. I was
>> expecting rather more than a large square shaped canvas tent, on a
>> wooden base with a wooden door, and two single iron bedsteads contained
>> therein.
>
>Right. Gotcha. Yosemite's cabins don't have canvas walls,
The one I was in sure did.
>though there
>was a small problem last year when several of them were flooded or
>washed away.
>
>Y'know, I've heard those canvas and wood floor things called "tents" and
>felt similarly betrayed. Tents do not have wood floors or doors.
>
>> Running water, for one thing. That, I was expecting in a 'cabin'.
>>
>> :-)
>
>Hmmm. I've stayed in lots of camp cabins that didn't have running water.
>Or electricity. If it's a "resort cabin," I expect both. (And a private
>bathroom, too.) But if it's a "rustic cabin," I'd be inclined to
>investigate further in order to know what I was signing up for.
Ah see, we don't have 'cabins' this side of the Pond, so when they said
cabin on the translatlantic phone call I saw 'Seven Brides For Seven
Brothers' and thought "how neat!" (Clean and tidy, after Milly, not
before, obviously).
So... about this con with a name and a person wanting to join
up...dates?
Jim Trash
Victor Gonzalez <sq...@galaxy-7.net> writes
>
>Can you get camping space near some Major Pagan Monument, Jim?
Morgan is probably the person to ask about that.
My absolute favourite camp site is at Tintagel.
A beautifully atmospheric place in a delightful part of the country.
Reading 'Idylls of the King' whilst gazing out over Merlin's Cave and
the castle atop the cliff was a magical experience.
Unfortunately the weather there can be downright atrocious.
Last time I visited we got caught up in a gale and my tent was
completely smashed.
I didn't sleep that night as I rushed out every half hour or so to bash
the tent pegs back into the ground. Come the morning the wind grew even
worse and I decided to abandon the tent and get into the car.
I woke up my son (who had miraculously slept through all of it) and
suggested to him as gently as I could that he should get into the car.
"Oh no" he said, "I want to go back to sleep."
"No really, it's quite important, I must insist."
It wasn't easy to balance between trying to impress upon him the urgency
of the situation and trying not to panic him.
He eventually did get out and I bundled up the tent, with smashed
supports and shoved it into the car climbing in myself and driving off.
That was certainly the worst weather I've ever encountered whilst
camping.
That was also the holiday when myself and son were supposed to be going
castle hunting in Wales. We drove down the M6 and managed to miss Wales
altogether not turning right until after the sticky out bit at the
bottom.
http://www.scream.demon.co.uk Jim Trash
Jim Trash
>
>But I won't spend a weekend under canvas for *anyone*.
>
>Where, for instance, are the comfy chairs by the bar going to go?
>
>
The comfy chairs and even the bar you can bring yourself.
One of my favourite camping memories was at a kite festival in Monmouth
(I think). I was sitting in one of those fold up chairs drinking a
bottle of Chablis, barbecuing meat type things and chatting to some of
the other campers whilst watching the kites.
The sun was shining, the mood was glorious.
It was a very special moment indeed.
http://www.scream.demon.co.uk Jim Trash
Jim Trash
<Ber...@shrdlu.com> writes
>It's been suggested many times over the years. We even did it once, at
>one of the Polycons in Hatfield the committee offered the use of the
>lawn to anyone bringing a tent. Only two of us took them up on it.
Hmm
Although from the comments on here so far it's not too surprising.
There's a sort of similar arrangement happens up here for the Cix
Northern barbecue.
A chap called Bill in Blubberhouses who has a fairly small sort of
pseudo farm hosts it.
We eat and drink all day and then crash out in the tents afterwards. He
has a barn too for if the weather gets really bad.
This arrangement seems to work perfectly.
>
>There is a real problem in that although there are a lot of comments
>about the greying of fandom, this may be in part because it's getting to
>be an expensive pastime. There is probably scope for an ultra-low cost
>convention in the UK, when are you thinking of running one?
>
>
>
<Grin>
It looks, from this discussion, very unlikely indeed that this is going
to happen on any sort of large scale.
I'd expect that I couldn't gather more than about 20 fans in the UK who
would go for this sort of thing and even then there'd be all the
problems of arranging dates we could all do.
I think the nearest we'd get is someone with a largeish house who would
host a barbecue and has some lawn space for a few tents and maybe a
marquee.
http://www.scream.demon.co.uk Jim Trash
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
Get off of your high horse. Maybe your time is so worthless that you can sit
around writing and mailing letters to vending companies 1500 miles from your
home to get a check for $1.00, but mine is not. And, perhaps you feel that I
should call a cab to take me to a convenience store to buy a Coke in the middle
of the night (my coworker had the rental car) when the hotel's vending machine
takes my last dollar bill. I disagree.
A reputable hotel refunds money lost in vending machines and gets reimbursed by
the vending company. I find it very suspicious that there were $1.50 cans of
coke in the mini-bar AND the hotel wouldn't refund me for money lost in the
vending machines.
You wrote:
"The vending company... would have cheerfully refunded your money, even if you
had not actually lost any."
I won't ask how you know this.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Vicki Rosenzweig
>In <EBVcQAAD...@scream.demon.co.uk> Jim Trash <j...@scream.demon.co.uk>
> writes:
>
>>I'd say a con is different because that door money is the equivalent of
>>everyone shoving money in the kitty so we can all use the function space
>>and such.
>>I see a con as a party and the transaction is between the attendees of
>>that party.
>
>Yep.
>
>>This at the door price could be brought down by using more basic
>>function space though. If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
>>to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
>>transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
>>Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
>>and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
>>reach of some of the poorer fen.
>>I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
>>in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
>>moment.
>
>simply because it would eliminate too many people with dodgy health or
>physical limitations, many of whom are neither middle-class nor middle-aged.
>Personally, I'm up for Adventures In the Great Outdoors, but I'm not sure
>about combining the experience with that of an SF con.
>
I'm even up for including outdoor adventures as part of a con, but they
shouldn't (imho, meaning at cons I'm likely to attend or willing to work
on) be the core of the convention. For example, I had a very good time
on Carrie Root and Andy Hooper's four-mile walking tour of historic
Madison, at last Wiscon. So did about two dozen people. The other
500 or so con members did other things during those two hours.
Similarly, I have no objection to people playing softball during, and
as part of, Corflu, but I'm happier in the years when it doesn't become
the *only* thing happening for an afternoon. (I like long walks; I don't
like softball. YMMV.) Corflu Wave (1997) included a morning hike
on Mount Diablo, scheduled to end before the (limited) programming
started, though those of us who felt like it stretched the hike and
skipped the first program item.
The key point here is that people who find such things unappealing
can still attend, participate in, and enjoy the con. A "fannish hiking
trip" or the like would be a very different activity.
Vicki Rosenzweig
v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/
"Typos are Coyote padding through the language, grinning."
-- Susanna Sturgis
Vicki Rosenzweig
>Bernard Peek wrote:
>
>> There is a real problem in that although there are a lot of comments
>> about the greying of fandom, this may be in part because it's getting to
>> be an expensive pastime. There is probably scope for an ultra-low cost
>> convention in the UK, when are you thinking of running one?
>
>would have been a non-starter for me at 18, too. I sometimes think the
>main reason I spent so much time, my first few years of it, in the
>computer center, was that it was the only air-conditioned space
>available to me.
>
>Certainly the absolute prices for everything has increased, but relative
>to the general cost of living I don't see fandom having gone up so
>much. I think maybe we fly to more cons and drive to fewer, and
>*that's* a middle-aged (time pressured) decision that drives cost up.
>And I don't share a hotel room with three friends any more either.
>
>Actually, SF cons are a tremendous bargain compared to other
>conventions.
Yes. It's a matter of what you define as a necessity. Buses are cheaper
than trains are usually cheaper than planes. (All hand-waving here applies
to the US, not necessarily anywhere else.)
If you're doing it cheap, you don't "eat out half a dozen meals in the course
of a weekend." You see if you can find someone who'll give you crash
space for free (sometimes friends will) or for very little money.
I set out for my first Worldcon, in 1983, with a membership bought two
years in advance (shortly after I entered fandom) and $100 in my pocket,
plus a promise of crash space. (The fallback plan was a several-way room
share, which I'd probably have paid off my share of a few weeks later.)
$40 of that $100 was budgeted for round-trip bus fare from New York
to Baltimore. (Just for comparison, 15 years later I'm not a student, I
have a decent job, and I'm expecting to spend about 3 times as much to
travel in my idea of comfort, which is Amtrak.) I ate as cheap as I could
manage--the only meal I remember as such is the one where a new
acquaintance with a car invited me to join him, his wife, and another
friend in driving to a local crab shack. Wonderful and not expensive:
steamed crabs, newspaper on the tables, lots of lemonade. And I
worked a bunch of hours, at $5/hour, for a huckster friend of mine who
needed help.
And that was a Worldcon, with nobody offering me a ride. Obviously,
the numbers can be tweaked in both directions. But the mistake is
to assume that because I, now, insist on a bed and am particular
about who I will share a room with, this is the only way to do a con.
I've slept on floors and not minded it; I may well do so again.
Rae Montor
Loedding) wrote:
> In article <6olaao$1f8$1...@tepe.tezcat.com>,
> cyo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com (Cyohtee) wrote:
> >: 3. Fandom is, by nature, inclusionary: there are no "outsiders" in
> >: fandom. (It can be argued that fandom is *composed* of "outsiders",
> >: but that's another discussion. <G>)
> >Sorry, have to disagree heavily here. There are billions of
> >outsiders. They are the ones who do not want to be a part of Fandom,
> I think you're missing the point. Well, part of it, anyway. While I
> agree that there are "outsiders" who are as you describe below, what I
> think Rae was trying to say is that most members of fandom are
> "outsiders" as far as society in general is concerned.
Yup, that was (that part of) the point. Thanks.
(Well, to be a tad more precise: many members of fandom have *been*
outsiders, especially when they were younger. It's also true that many
continue to be regardless of age, but I was looking more at provenance.)
Rae M
Viable Paradise II: SF on Martha's VIneyard
http://www.tiac.net/users/rmontor/paradise
Vicki Rosenzweig
>Doug,
>
>Get off of your high horse. Maybe your time is so worthless that you can sit
>around writing and mailing letters to vending companies 1500 miles from your
>home to get a check for $1.00, but mine is not. And, perhaps you feel that I
>should call a cab to take me to a convenience store to buy a Coke in the middle
>of the night (my coworker had the rental car) when the hotel's vending machine
>takes my last dollar bill. I disagree.
>
>A reputable hotel refunds money lost in vending machines and gets reimbursed by
>the vending company. I find it very suspicious that there were $1.50 cans of
>coke in the mini-bar AND the hotel wouldn't refund me for money lost in the
>vending machines.
>
to bother writing and mailing a letter--but you're terribly upset about the
loss of a dollar, to the point that you feel justified in not only taking a
soda to make up for the one you'd paid for, but punishing the hotel by
also helping yourself to some chocolates.
Here's a point you might not have thought of. The hotel maid has the
key to the minibar. Sooner or later, the stuff turns up missing. The
hotel might decide to take it out of the maid's wages. You *know*
she isn't the person who decided not to refund the money (she doesn't
get to make those decisions). Thus, someone who probably can
spare a dollar far less than you can has lost several dollars to make
you feel revenged on a corporation.
Marilee J. Layman
Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> wrote:
>Doug,
>
>Get off of your high horse. Maybe your time is so worthless that you can sit
>around writing and mailing letters to vending companies 1500 miles from your
>home to get a check for $1.00, but mine is not.
But you had time to take the minibar door off the hinges and steal
stuff. Surely your writing isn't *that* bad.
BTW, the way to get the stuff out of the minibar and counted is to
call housekeeping and tell them to send someone to empty it. Stand
there and inventory it with them while they take it out and put a note
on it saying not to refill it.
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
relm...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
*New* Web site: http://www.webmoose.com/owc/
AOL keyword: BOOKs > Books Community > The Other*Worlds*Cafe (listbox)
Bernard Peek
>Certainly the absolute prices for everything has increased, but relative
>to the general cost of living I don't see fandom having gone up so
>much. I think maybe we fly to more cons and drive to fewer, and
>*that's* a middle-aged (time pressured) decision that drives cost up.
>And I don't share a hotel room with three friends any more either.
>
>Actually, SF cons are a tremendous bargain compared to other
>conventions.
Agreed, and I like my comfort as much as the next person. But there may
be scope for ultra-low-cost conventions in addition to the ones in four
or five-star hotels.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
(Note the new address.)
John Lorentz
<m1N7TEAp...@shrdlu.com>...
> >conventions.
>
> Agreed, and I like my comfort as much as the next person. But there may
> be scope for ultra-low-cost conventions in addition to the ones in four
> or five-star hotels.
>
Actually, the relative hotel cost isn't necessarily the reason for the
higher costs of cons nowadays. While OryCon's hotel price is (in my
mind--and I'm chairing the thing) somewhat pricey this year at $88 a night
(the purchase of the Red Lion hotels by Doubletree has bumped up room
rates, just as we were worried that it would), it's still at least a third
less than we'd be able to get from the Marriott or Hilton here in town (and
even the fancier Doubletree).
And there are no facilities in town with _any_ meeting space that have room
rates less than about $60 a night (and very few motels at all that don't
charge at least $50.) So I'm not sure (based on the very limited sample of
Portland-area hotels) that it's possible to run a "ultra-low-cost"
convention here.
What we've found, actually, is that our convention rates haven't go up
because of what the hotel costs us (except for the rooms we rent for our
GOH's and things like the Hospitality prep room). The biggest increases
have been caused by higher food prices for Hospitality (strangely, the
drink costs have remained constant for several years now), much higher
printing prices, and higher postage. These have probably caused 3/4ths of
the OryCon membership price increases during the last decade. The meeting
space costs have barely gone up at all.
--John
Bernard Peek
<j...@scream.demon.co.uk> writes
>
><Grin>
>It looks, from this discussion, very unlikely indeed that this is going
>to happen on any sort of large scale.
>I'd expect that I couldn't gather more than about 20 fans in the UK who
>would go for this sort of thing and even then there'd be all the
>problems of arranging dates we could all do.
>
>I think the nearest we'd get is someone with a largeish house who would
>host a barbecue and has some lawn space for a few tents and maybe a
>marquee.
Or a pub with same.
About fifteen years ago, when a similar idea was floated, a pub I knew
of offered us the use of their facilities for free. Unfortunately I
can't get free marquees any more. I had a contact who was a
quartermaster at RAF Brize-Norton. He claimed he could deliver a marquee
almost anywhere in the UK, plus or minus 100 metres, given 24 hours
notice.
For free beer he could also deliver a squad to erect it, with slightly
better accuracy, and at shorter notice.
Morgan
<j...@scream.demon.co.uk> said:
>In article <squib-ya02408000...@news1.newscene.com>,
>Victor Gonzalez <sq...@galaxy-7.net> writes
>>
>>Can you get camping space near some Major Pagan Monument, Jim?
>
>Morgan is probably the person to ask about that.
You need to redefine 'Major Pagan Monument' a bit when it comes to the
UK. A Major Pagan Monument in the middle of nowhere with no transport,
running water or shops for 50 miles, we could do quite a few times over.
Suitable and convenient for purposes discussed gets more difficult.
The short answer is no. After the terrible and repressive crackdown of
the Stonehenge Solstice Rock Festival, with the Thatcherite moral panic
of New Age Travellers, the 'established' pagan sites are taboo. Mostly.
The medium answer is there are sites where it would be feasible, given
the time and negotiating impetus. And probably, a great deal of money
(thus negating the point).
The long answer is that The Ridgeway, an ancient cartway/walkway, which
stretches across Wiltshire ridges and comes within spitting distance of
many Major Pagan Monuments is protected by law. Once you are on the
Ridgeway, it would take an Act of Parliament to get you off it.
Literally.
So, stringing out along the Ridgeway in a linear camp within walking
distance of said Pagan sites is perfectly feasible. Bearing in mind yo
are on a narrow dust baked in summer/mud bath in winter cartway, with no
shops, running water or ammenities.
>
>My absolute favourite camp site is at Tintagel.
>A beautifully atmospheric place in a delightful part of the country.
>Reading 'Idylls of the King' whilst gazing out over Merlin's Cave and
>the castle atop the cliff was a magical experience.
Which brings me to the longest and bestest solution: youth hostels.
There are youth hostels with small bed counts and friendly managers
scattered around, mostly in historic buildings. St Briavels, in the Wye
valley, is what's left of the mediaval hunting lodge of King John. It
boasts 70 beds and a stupendous view, is a hop skip and a jump from some
nice ruins (including a wonderful abbey whose name escapes me but Ken's
mention of Tintagel made me think of it) and fits the bill for purposes
specfied. You are allowed to pitch tent in the (tiny) grounds.
Tre and I, when we were involved the UK equivalent of SCAing, held many
a weekend do at St Briavels. Preparing vast quantities of food to feed
everyone. It was very cheap. As long as you took the entire hostel,
you could negotiate a great deal with the Warders. (Deal on usage of
rules etc).
I also organised a weekend for Roy (Oscar Dalgleish of old Glasgow
fandom) and Martin's Celebration of Partnership at Briavels, with their
families in attendance. (Not that the wardens were precisly aware of
who it was in our company that were 'getting married'.)
For the original suggestion of a very cheap, low tech, comfy and cosy
convention, with canvas as an option for some, and all food thrown in -
that's the root to take. (It can be self catering, but the 'individual'
cooking facilitites would not take everyone cooking at anything remotely
like a similar time.) Although you are talking dormitories, with iron
bunk beds. This isn't as nasty as it sounds, however, given you are in
a real castle!
Oh yes, and the pub's next door!
:-)
Morgan
<j...@scream.demon.co.uk> said:
>The comfy chairs and even the bar you can bring yourself.
>One of my favourite camping memories was at a kite festival in Monmouth
>(I think). I was sitting in one of those fold up chairs drinking a
>bottle of Chablis, barbecuing meat type things and chatting to some of
>the other campers whilst watching the kites.
>The sun was shining, the mood was glorious.
>It was a very special moment indeed.
And what pray, would you have done, if it had rained?
P Nielsen Hayden
>Agreed, and I like my comfort as much as the next person. But there may
>be scope for ultra-low-cost conventions in addition to the ones in four
>or five-star hotels.
We have SF conventions in four- and five-star hotels?
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Rev. Jihad Frenzy
wrote:
> In <m1N7TEAp...@shrdlu.com> Bernard Peek <Ber...@shrdlu.com> writes:
>
> >Agreed, and I like my comfort as much as the next person. But there may
> >be scope for ultra-low-cost conventions in addition to the ones in four
> >or five-star hotels.
>
> We have SF conventions in four- and five-star hotels?
>
One Boskone was held in the Copley, a very hoity, very toity hotel. The con
was NOT asked back.
(That the Con showed Cafe Flesh in the movie room, and attracted most of
the hotel staff _may_ have been a factor in the "...And Don't Come Back!"
from the hotel.)
--
Rev. Jihad Frenzy
"Gadzooks!", quoth I, "But here's a saucy bawd!"
I, Libertine
by Fredrick R. Ewing
<A HREF="HTTP://WWW.GIS.NET/~CHT"/A>
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <6ormc3$s...@panix2.panix.com>, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden)
>wrote:
>
>> In <m1N7TEAp...@shrdlu.com> Bernard Peek <Ber...@shrdlu.com> writes:
>>
>> >Agreed, and I like my comfort as much as the next person. But there may
>> >be scope for ultra-low-cost conventions in addition to the ones in four
>> >or five-star hotels.
>>
>> We have SF conventions in four- and five-star hotels?
>>
>
>One Boskone was held in the Copley, a very hoity, very toity hotel. The con
>was NOT asked back.
Right, I know the Copley; I've been at sales conferences there. Nice place.
My point is that Bernard's dichotomy is based on an exaggeration; rather few
cons are held in truly ritzy hotels.
I'm basically sympathetic to the idea of "ultra-low-cost" cons, since I hate
having to make choices that in effect exclude really poor fans, but I do
want to keep reminding people that most "ultra-low-cost" options tend to
have consequences that in effect exclude fans with physical limitations,
like for instance Teresa Nielsen Hayden.
David G. Bell
Ber...@shrdlu.com "Bernard Peek" writes:
> In article <HUvM1KA1...@scream.demon.co.uk>, Jim Trash
> <j...@scream.demon.co.uk> writes
>
> >
> ><Grin>
> >It looks, from this discussion, very unlikely indeed that this is going
> >to happen on any sort of large scale.
> >I'd expect that I couldn't gather more than about 20 fans in the UK who
> >would go for this sort of thing and even then there'd be all the
> >problems of arranging dates we could all do.
> >
> >I think the nearest we'd get is someone with a largeish house who would
> >host a barbecue and has some lawn space for a few tents and maybe a
> >marquee.
>
> Or a pub with same.
>
> About fifteen years ago, when a similar idea was floated, a pub I knew
> of offered us the use of their facilities for free. Unfortunately I
> can't get free marquees any more. I had a contact who was a
> quartermaster at RAF Brize-Norton. He claimed he could deliver a marquee
> almost anywhere in the UK, plus or minus 100 metres, given 24 hours
> notice.
Checks RAF Yearbook...
No 1 Parachute Training School, I suppose?
> For free beer he could also deliver a squad to erect it, with slightly
> better accuracy, and at shorter notice.
They're already familiar with the location of the County Showground...
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
mike weber
Spam E-mail Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> opined:
>Ouug Wickstrom wrote:
>
>"The vending company... would have cheerfully refunded your money, even if you
>had not actually lost any."
>
>I won't ask how you know this.
>
Because it's pretty much standard policy to refund random claims
against the machines, because they know the machines -do- mess up.
So long as you don't make more than about one claim a week, most
companies won't even argue with you, they just ask you tosign a slip
and hand over the refund. Generally, the routeman is authorised to
refund such amounts, and leaving a note on the machine will often get
you a refund in an envelope at the front desk next day.
--
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
"No use searching for the answers if the questions
are in doubt." F.leBlanc
Beth Friedman
<35B034...@toad-hall.com>...
> > One thing 'tho, is we really should explain 'cabin' to folks. I was
> > expecting rather more than a large square shaped canvas tent, on a
> > wooden base with a wooden door, and two single iron bedsteads contained
> > therein.
> Y'know, I've heard those canvas and wood floor things called "tents" and
> felt similarly betrayed. Tents do not have wood floors or doors.
You're entitled, both of you. The things with canvas and wood floors are
neither tents nor cabins. They're platform tents.
Beth, who was a happy camper for 10 or more years.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
>
> In <35B0A7F0...@erols.com>, Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail
> Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Doug,
> >
> >Get off of your high horse. Maybe your time is so worthless that you can sit
> >around writing and mailing letters to vending companies 1500 miles from your
> >home to get a check for $1.00, but mine is not.
>
> But you had time to take the minibar door off the hinges and steal
> stuff. Surely your writing isn't *that* bad.
It was after midnight, I wanted a coke and writing a letter, paying 32 cents to
mail it, and waiting several weeks for a $1 check (for a net of 68 cents after
postage) to show up at my home over 1000 miles away wasn't going to get me a
coke. They took my dollar and time and pissed me off in the process. I took
their coke and candy. Big deal.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Aahz Maruch
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>I'm basically sympathetic to the idea of "ultra-low-cost" cons, since
>I hate having to make choices that in effect exclude really poor fans,
>but I do want to keep reminding people that most "ultra-low-cost"
>options tend to have consequences that in effect exclude fans with
>physical limitations, like for instance Teresa Nielsen Hayden.
Yup. Not to say this doesn't happen in more expensive hotels, but at
Alt.Polycon III, one of the two elevators was broken when we arrived on
Thursday night (never got fixed) and the other broke early Sunday
morning. As a result, our programming chair (who's in a chair) had to
miss Sunday, which included a brunch that was the high point of the con.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
Frog: ribbit, ribbit
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> You're trying to have it both ways. Your time is worth too much for you
> to bother writing and mailing a letter--but you're terribly upset about the
> loss of a dollar
No. I feel "terribly upset" when the only vending machine that had Cokes took
my money and the hotel would not make good on it. They refused to give me a
refund OR a Coke -- both of which I asked for. When I asked for a Coke, they
had the gall to tell me that I could buy one from the mini-bar in my room!
I was mad because they chose the vending company and I, the hotel's guest, was
stuck with writing a letter when the machine malfunctioned (which I of course
never did).
I was staying there for several days and racked up several hundred dollars in
room charges and ate several meals in their restaurant (yes, it was closed at
the time the machine took my money) and they wouldn't even give me a frigging
Coke. Yes, I was upset. Actually "angry" is a better word.
> , to the point that you feel justified in not only taking a
> soda to make up for the one you'd paid for, but punishing the hotel by
> also helping yourself to some chocolates.
Yes, but not because of the amount I lost (which was inconsequential).
> Here's a point you might not have thought of. The hotel maid has the
> key to the minibar. Sooner or later, the stuff turns up missing. The
> hotel might decide to take it out of the maid's wages.
You are right that, in my anger, I did not consider that. I did think of it
prior to checking out and left a $20 tip for the maid which either made her
happy or, at the least, more than covered the cost of the goods from the
minibar.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Loren Joseph MacGregor
: >
: It was after midnight, I wanted a coke and writing a letter, paying
: net of 68 cents after postage) to show up at my home over 1000 miles
: away wasn't going to get me a coke. They took my dollar and time
: and pissed me off in the process. I took their coke and candy. Big
: deal.
Either the next tenant of the room -- or, more likely -- the maid --
is going to have to pay for the material you stole.
That's causing an innocent party a problem because you felt
self-righteous about something that was in your power to resolve.
Further, every soda machine I've ever seen has a number you can
call -- generally an 800 number -- if there is a problem.
I suspect, from the way you're justifying your actions, that you
didn't take a reasonable approach when you talked to the hotel
staff either. Did you, for example, say, "Excuse me, but I just
lost a dollar in the soda machine on the 6th floor. Can you
get me a soda in exchange, or refund my money?" Or, rather,
did you say something closer to, "Your stupid machine ate me
damn dollar. I want a fucking refund right now."
In any event, no matter what your justification, what you did
was theft, pure and simple. No amount of explantory cotton
candy will obscure that.
-- LJM
Loren Joseph MacGregor
: I was mad because they chose the vending company and I, the hotel's
: guest, was stuck with writing a letter when the machine malfunctioned
: (which I of course never did).
Oh, of course. Why let the company that was responsible for the
problem know about it?
: You are right that, in my anger, I did not consider that. I did think of it
: prior to checking out and left a $20 tip for the maid which either made her
: happy or, at the least, more than covered the cost of the goods from the
: minibar.
For the record, an adequate tip for the maid is 5 - 10% of the cost of
the room per night of stay.
-- LJM
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In article <6ormc3$s...@panix2.panix.com>, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden)
> wrote:
>
> > In <m1N7TEAp...@shrdlu.com> Bernard Peek <Ber...@shrdlu.com> writes:
> >
> > >Agreed, and I like my comfort as much as the next person. But there may
> > >be scope for ultra-low-cost conventions in addition to the ones in four
> > >or five-star hotels.
> >
> > We have SF conventions in four- and five-star hotels?
> >
>
> One Boskone was held in the Copley, a very hoity, very toity hotel. The con
> was NOT asked back.
Um, no. The Marriott Copley Place. Practically the only hotel in the
Marriott chain that won't deal with sf groups, now, somewhat to the
annoyance of Marriott corporate, but since it's also a very profitable
one, and has been even in relatively lean years, corporate is not
going to overrule the local management.
> (That the Con showed Cafe Flesh in the movie room,
Yes.
> and attracted most of
> the hotel staff
No. Just one, actually. One of the younger staff members--towards whom
the local management felt he was in some sense _in loco parentis_. The
Marriott [this is one of the reasons that it matters that it was the
Marriott Copley Place, _not_ "the Copley"] has lots of Mormons
scattered through all levels of management and, speaking in wild
generalizations here, they tend to take this sort of stuff very
seriously. The local management was deeply offended by the incident.
The club was also greatly annoyed by the bad judgment of the person
running film program that year, but of course that was after the fact
and the damage had been done.
> _may_ have been a factor in the "...And Don't Come Back!"
> from the hotel.)
Oh, it certainly was a factor, but not the only one. The Marriott IS a
relatively upscale hotel [though certainly not five-star; even the
Ritz Carlton in Boston is only a four-star hotel, and the Marriott
Copley Place is in the same class, perhaps, in its dreams], and they
thought they were startled and not pleased, after negotiating with
people in proper business suits, to find themselve hosting a
convention of people in t-shirts and jeans. There were other mutual
annoyances, too. It was, generally, Not A Good Fit.
That's why it's silly to talk about sf conventions being held in
"four- and five-star hotels", at least in the US; we don't dress well
enough at cons to get in the door. Mid-range business hotels tend to
work out a lot better.
Lis Carey
Laura Burchard
Loren Joseph MacGregor <lmac...@efn.org> wrote:
>In any event, no matter what your justification, what you did
>was theft, pure and simple. No amount of explantory cotton
>candy will obscure that.
To be completely fair, if a coke machine absconded with my last dollar
late at night and the hotel's only response when asked for a replacement
coke was "Buy one from the minibar", I think I might also pilfer a coke
out of sheer irritation. But I don't see where he gets off taking other
stuff.
Laura
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
Morgan
Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> said:
>You're entitled, both of you. The things with canvas and wood floors are
>neither tents nor cabins. They're platform tents.
>
>Beth, who was a happy camper for 10 or more years.
Except I booked into a cabin, and that is what I got. (At Yosemite).
And they were called cabins.
Hence my original posts saying Be Very Carfeul In Explaining What A
Cabin In Yosemite Is.
P Nielsen Hayden
>To be completely fair, if a coke machine absconded with my last dollar
>late at night and the hotel's only response when asked for a replacement
>coke was "Buy one from the minibar", I think I might also pilfer a coke
>out of sheer irritation.
To be fair, under those circumstances I might have done it too. But if I
bragged about it on Usenet, I hope I wouldn't be surprised if lots of people
subsequently pissed on me from a great height.
David E Romm
Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> wrote:
> It was after midnight, I wanted a coke and writing a letter, paying 32
cents to
> mail it, and waiting several weeks for a $1 check (for a net of 68 cents after
> postage) to show up at my home over 1000 miles away wasn't going to get me a
> coke. They took my dollar and time and pissed me off in the process. I took
> their coke and candy. Big deal.
Of course, the probable reason the Coke machine didn't work was that the
previous user had banged on it and shaken it because the candy machine
down the hall ate her money...
...and the reason the maid doesn't feel guilty about stealing linen is
because management charged her for the minibar when she didn't take
anything...
...and the reason the hotel has to charge so much is because they go
through linen so quickly, and they have to replace their vending
machines...
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
"You are not superior just because you see the world in an odious light."
-- Vicomte de Chateaubriand
Zev Sero
[Re a tentcon]
>It might be fun to try, speaking for myself. It would be cheaper, and it
>would provide a very different ambiance from any SF con I've attended. And
>I doubt it would become so popular that you'd have to worry about an
>outdoor worldcon.
Pennsic is twice the size of Worldcon. It's a tentcon that grew so big
that under PA law, it's a town.
--
Zev Sero Programming: the art of debugging an empty text file
zs...@bigfoot.com
Zev Sero
>If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
>to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
>transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
>Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
>and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
>reach of some of the poorer fen.
>I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
>in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
>moment.
It's been done. Pennsic. Baitcon.
Zev Sero
>Ding! We have a winner. That's part of my point. No longer can a
>college/high-school student plan on a fun weekend at a con unless he/she
>is MUCH better off financially than most. $250 (US) is a conservative
>estimate for the cost of a 3-day weekend con (room, membership,
>transportation, eating out for a half-dozen meals, etc.). When fast
>food restaurants are paying them under $6/hour, that's a lot of burger
>flipping! You are literally talking about a student with a part-time
>job working a month to pay for a convention!
The younger fen are still crashing 7 or 8 to a room, which brings
accomodation, the biggest expense of a con, down to something
affordable. Then, at many cons, gofers can get real food in the
staff den, which saves some more money. It's still possible for
the impecunious young fan to make even a Worldcon affordable.
Daniel Blum
> In article <6ormc3$s...@panix2.panix.com>, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden)
> wrote:
> > In <m1N7TEAp...@shrdlu.com> Bernard Peek <Ber...@shrdlu.com> writes:
> >
> > >Agreed, and I like my comfort as much as the next person. But there may
> > >be scope for ultra-low-cost conventions in addition to the ones in four
> > >or five-star hotels.
> >
> > We have SF conventions in four- and five-star hotels?
> >
> One Boskone was held in the Copley, a very hoity, very toity hotel. The con
> was NOT asked back.
> (That the Con showed Cafe Flesh in the movie room, and attracted most of
> the hotel staff _may_ have been a factor in the "...And Don't Come Back!"
> from the hotel.)
According to my AAA guide, the Copley is a 3-star (well, diamond, but it's
the same idea) hotel. Granted that's only one group's opinion, but if
they're really a 4 or 5-star hotel they're a bargain - the really swank
places charge about twice as much as they do.
____________________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum to...@mcs.net
"Friends, we have passed a night in hell; but now the sun is shining, the
birds are singing, and the radiant form of the dentist consoles the world."
____________________________________________________________________________
Sharon L Sbarsky
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>> In <35B0A7F0...@erols.com>, Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail
>> Accepted <fmax...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Doug,
>> >
>> >Get off of your high horse. Maybe your time is so worthless that you can sit
>> >around writing and mailing letters to vending companies 1500 miles from your
>> >home to get a check for $1.00, but mine is not.
>>
>> But you had time to take the minibar door off the hinges and steal
>> stuff. Surely your writing isn't *that* bad.
>
>mail it, and waiting several weeks for a $1 check (for a net of 68 cents after
>postage) to show up at my home over 1000 miles away wasn't going to get me a
>coke. They took my dollar and time and pissed me off in the process. I took
>their coke and candy. Big deal.
>
also usually an 800 (or 888) number on the vending machines to call for
problems. The vending company may have also reimbursed you for the cost of
the stamp if you asked, or complained to the hotel in question for not
helping you with your problem.
It doesn't get you your coke then, but taking it unpaid from the minibar
isn't the answer either.
OTOH, when I was staying in Amsterdam before ConFiction, we noticed that
the cans of soda were the same type as at the corner market outside of the
hotel. I bought my own supply of cans and merely replaced the ones in the
minibar to use its refrigeration funtion.
Sharon
Craig Macbride
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom Fred Maxwell <fmax...@erols.com> wrote:
>: [ ... ] They took my dollar and time
>: and pissed me off in the process. I took their coke and candy. Big
>: deal.
>Either the next tenant of the room -- or, more likely -- the maid --
>is going to have to pay for the material you stole.
There are two points being argued here: the appropriateness of the hotel's
actions and the appropriateness of Fred's actions.
>I suspect, from the way you're justifying your actions, that you
>didn't take a reasonable approach when you talked to the hotel
>staff either.
But we don't really know, do we? I've been pissed off by things hotels have
done, despite having been totally reasonable with them to start with.
Whether Fred is always antagonistic and likes to take retributive
action, or whether he was put into this mad mood by the hotel staff, is
hard to know from reading his posts.
>In any event, no matter what your justification, what you did
>was theft, pure and simple. No amount of explantory cotton
>candy will obscure that.
True, but what about the hotel? Let's say you are paying $100/night to
stay at a hotel and you tell them that their machine has swallowed your
$1. The hotel can either reimburse you, or not. If it chooses to reimburse
you, it stands to lose a tiny proportion of its takings, while making you
happy. If it chooses not to, it is choosing a course which is certain to
annoy you and likely to result in some negative result for the hotel,
even if it is simply that you won't stay with them again.
--
Craig Macbride <cr...@glasswings.com.au>
-----------------------http://amarok.glasswings.com.au/~craig---------------
"It's a sense of humour like mine, Carla, that makes me proud
to be ashamed of myself." - Captain Kremmen
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> I suspect, from the way you're justifying your actions, that you
> didn't take a reasonable approach when you talked to the hotel
> staff either. Did you, for example, say, "Excuse me, but I just
> lost a dollar in the soda machine on the 6th floor. Can you
> get me a soda in exchange, or refund my money?" Or, rather,
> did you say something closer to, "Your stupid machine ate me
> damn dollar. I want a fucking refund right now."
Perhaps the latter explains how you deal with situations like that, but, as a
business traveler with my company's name on the bill, I assure you that I behave
civilly.
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
>
> So long as you don't make more than about one claim a week, most
> companies won't even argue with you, they just ask you tosign a slip
> and hand over the refund. Generally, the routeman is authorised to
> refund such amounts, and leaving a note on the machine will often get
> you a refund in an envelope at the front desk next day.
But I wanted a Coke that night. Not a dollar the next day.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> The hotel *might* have stamped the letter for you, if you asked. There is
> also usually an 800 (or 888) number on the vending machines to call for
> problems. The vending company may have also reimbursed you for the cost of
> the stamp if you asked, or complained to the hotel in question for not
> helping you with your problem.
Why spend 10 minutes trying to get a dollar back when I spent less than 2
minutes to earn it in the first place?
> It doesn't get you your coke then, but taking it unpaid from the minibar
> isn't the answer either.
Sure it is. The Coke was refreshing, perked me up, and let me finish my work.
I was thirsty and I paid my $1 for a Coke. Instead of a Coke, I got a
runaround. So I took the easiest route to getting a Coke from the hotel that
owed me one. People seem to miss out on the fact that the hotel can't duck
responsibility by shoving everything off to a vendor:
"Sorry your Magic Fingers bed didn't work. You'll have to write to Vibra-Bed of
Ohio for a refund."
"We are really sorry that your phone went dead during your call. Write a letter
to Mega Telecom and request a refund."
"I'm sorry your room-service-delivered meal was cold. You need to send a letter
to Thompson's Catering. They supply the food."
> OTOH, when I was staying in Amsterdam before ConFiction, we noticed that
> the cans of soda were the same type as at the corner market outside of the
> hotel. I bought my own supply of cans and merely replaced the ones in the
> minibar to use its refrigeration funtion.
If only there had been a corner market in walking distance, I wouldn't have been
prowling the halls in search of a Coke.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> To be completely fair, if a coke machine absconded with my last dollar
> late at night and the hotel's only response when asked for a replacement
> coke was "Buy one from the minibar", I think I might also pilfer a coke
> out of sheer irritation.
Thanks for being so honest. After all the grief I've taken over a couple of
dollars worth of Coke and candy, that took guts.
> But I don't see where he gets off taking other stuff.
The Coke was owed to me for the $1 I paid. The candy and crackers was for the
time I spent getting the Coke and the runaround. I was up late working, not
sitting around with nothing to do. It was an annoying and unnecessary
interruption and the couple of dollars worth of snacks is hardly just
compensation.
Regards,
Fred
Laura Burchard
>> But I don't see where he gets off taking other stuff.
>The Coke was owed to me for the $1 I paid. The candy and crackers was for the
>time I spent getting the Coke and the runaround. I was up late working, not
>sitting around with nothing to do. It was an annoying and unnecessary
>interruption and the couple of dollars worth of snacks is hardly just
>compensation.
Ah, but we have two different things here: physical satisfaction, that is
having the coke that is desired, and psychic satisfaction, which is
getting back at the hotel for not satisfying the reasonable needs of their
guests. *That* I would obtain by writing a letter, in very best polite
acid style, to the executives of the hotel (or chain). Highlighting the
fact that the reason I went to their (expensive) hotel instead of the
perfectly nice chain motel down the street, with beds just as soft and
showers just as hot, was to be relieved of such minor annoyances. I have
found that there are very few business-class hotels that are not acutely
aware that this is true, and generally very eager to make up any
shortcomings.
Scenario one: You remove both coke and additional items from the fridge,
achieving both physical and psychic satisfaction. However, the
consequences of your actions are not funneled to the manager who annoyed
you, but to the innocent maid.
Scenario two: You do nothing at the time, but write a letter later. You
achieve psychic satisfaction but still spend the evening coke-less and
stewing.
Scenario three: You break the seal on the minibar and pay for the coke.
You obtain physical satisfaction but the additional annoyance of having
to inventory the bar, deal with management if something is missing, *and*
having obeyed the snotty manager who is causing all this trouble in the
first place. While you may still obtain psychic satisfaction from a
letter later, you have a lot more annoyance to satisfy.
Scenario four: You remove one coke and only one coke from the fridge, and
write a letter later. You are able to enjoy your coke and not stew, yet
consequences are minimized for the maid and maximized for the manager. Far
more elegant.
An even more elegant fillip to the last is to obtain, at a convenient time
in your stay, another can of coke, which you place back into the
refrigerator, thus ensuring physical satisfaction, maximal psychic
satisfaction, *and* moral serenity.
I will leave it to others to determine whether it is more or less elegant
to pay for said replacement coke from money you have obtained by filling
out a request for repayment with the maintainers of the original
troublesome soda machine or whether it doesn't make up for the psychic
annoyance involved in doing so.
Now, I'll grant there is slightly more effort involved in writing a
letter then taking additional items, but the psychic rewards of
*well-directed* revenge are so much richer...
Laura
moral calculus R'Us!
P Nielsen Hayden
[on the implicit assertion that the "very hoity, very toity" Copley Plaza in
Boston is a four-star or better hotel]
>According to my AAA guide, the Copley is a 3-star (well, diamond, but it's
>the same idea) hotel. Granted that's only one group's opinion, but if
>they're really a 4 or 5-star hotel they're a bargain - the really swank
>places charge about twice as much as they do.
I'm actually not surprised. Most fans seem to think an "expensive
restaurant" is one with tablecloths and a wine list.
Magi Shepley
hotel is the Marriott Marquis on Broadway in NYC. That is listed as
their premiere, show-place hotel in the guides.
(And the only reason I know this is because I stayed there for a
journalism convention 2 years running, and one of my parents is also a
stock-holder in the company. I seem to spend most of my travels staying
in those hotels because of the latter fact.)
Magi
Cally Soukup
> Morgan wrote:
> > >Geri [who, as usual, is including the fannish friends she hasn't met yet
> > >in her El Capicon daydreams]
> > >
> > >P.S. Oh, dear. The thing didn't have a name before. Now it's real.
> >
> > Where do I sign up?
> P.S. Oh, my. Now it's got a name *and* someone who wants to join.
Make that two someones.
> > One thing 'tho, is we really should explain 'cabin' to folks. I was
> > expecting rather more than a large square shaped canvas tent, on a
> > wooden base with a wooden door, and two single iron bedsteads contained
> > therein.
> Right. Gotcha. Yosemite's cabins don't have canvas walls, though there
> was a small problem last year when several of them were flooded or
> washed away.
> Y'know, I've heard those canvas and wood floor things called "tents" and
> felt similarly betrayed. Tents do not have wood floors or doors.
Sounds like what we called "platform tents" in Girl Scout camp.
Though the platform tents didn't have doors, just tent flaps.
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup ma...@mcs.com
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
Please accept my apology for bringing this topic up. I thought of it as an
amusing little story. So many others have voiced outrage at my actions that I
am forced to accept as fact that I am morally bereft and a common criminal.
Now, hopefully that will satisfy everyone, they can feel morally superior to me,
and we can get back to discussion SF conventions.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Fred Maxwell - No Spam E-mail Accepted
> For the record, an adequate tip for the maid is 5 - 10% of the cost of
> the room per night of stay.
5% I can do on business travel. 10% is pretty extravagent when you consider
that:
1. I have a single, which is, by far, the costliest per-person room.
2. I use one bath towel, one bath mat, and one washcloth per day (on the
average) and stack them on the counter to make the maid's job easier.
3. I tell the maid not to worry with vacuuming if I am there when she arrives.
4. I clean up after myself if I eat in the room.
5. I try to use only one wastebasket to minimize the maid's work.
6. I don't smoke. (Smoking is a big clean-up annoyance for the maids and big
expense to the hotel in smoke-damaged paint, curtains, etc.)
It would be different if I had a wife and two kids with me all using the towels,
both beds, and leaving crumbs all over or if I had a baby and was throwing away
"dirty" diapers that the maid had to deal with.
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Loren Joseph MacGregor
: Loren Joseph MacGregor wrote:
: > For the record, an adequate tip for the maid is 5 - 10% of the cost of
: > the room per night of stay.
: 5% I can do on business travel. 10% is pretty extravagent when you consider
: that:
[list of considerations snipped]
This was answered separately in e-mail, but to recapitulate here, 5%
for most business travel is probably reasonable, for the reasons Fred
states. Often, I've recommended at least 10% to science fiction fans
for a couple of reasons:
1. It may have changed now, but for the longest time fans didn't
think about tipping the maids at all.
2. It certainly isn't all fans by any means, but there are (or used
to be) a substantial number of fans that made substantially more
of a mess of their rooms than the average family. Years ago,
fans simply weren't used to the etiquette of staying in a hotel.
As conventions have gotten bigger and fans have begun attending
conventions more frequently, this may have changed.
I think it's a good idea to remind people from time to time, however.
The maids in your hotel generally work very hard for a rather small
wage. It is a good idea to tip them. If nothing else, at least
slip a couple of dollars under a flat object when you check out,
so they'll know you didn't just forget.
-- LJM
Loren Joseph MacGregor
: [on the implicit assertion that the "very hoity, very toity" Copley Plaza in
: Boston is a four-star or better hotel]
: >According to my AAA guide, the Copley is a 3-star (well, diamond, but it's
: >the same idea) hotel. Granted that's only one group's opinion, but if
: >they're really a 4 or 5-star hotel they're a bargain - the really swank
: >places charge about twice as much as they do.
: I'm actually not surprised. Most fans seem to think an "expensive
: restaurant" is one with tablecloths and a wine list.
You mean it -isn't-? I suppose that lets out places that serve
"Happy Meals," too. Boy.
-- LJM
Bernard Peek
<zs...@bigfoot.com> writes
>
>The younger fen are still crashing 7 or 8 to a room, which brings
>accomodation, the biggest expense of a con, down to something
>affordable. Then, at many cons, gofers can get real food in the
>staff den, which saves some more money. It's still possible for
>the impecunious young fan to make even a Worldcon affordable.
Worldcons are a slightly different problem. Yes they can be affordable,
if you know how. The people who read this newsgroup, and the ones who
run conventions know how to do it. Join the con early and don't wait for
the at the door rate. Arrange to share a room.
Neither of these options are available to someone who reads about the
Worldcon coming to town next month. It's too late to sign up at the
cheap rate, and they may not know anyone else who is going. They may not
know that it's possible to fit fourteen people into a hotel room.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Bernard Peek
<zs...@bigfoot.com> writes
>On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Jim Trash <j...@scream.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>If I were tempted to run a con then I would want
>>to attempt a tentcon so that accomodation costs would be cheaper and the
>>transaction with hotels would be taken out of the equation.
>>Still lots of overheads (hire of the field,generators, adequate toilet
>>and washing facilities etc) but would hopefully be within the finincial
>>reach of some of the poorer fen.
>>I have been told though on several occasions that this is a non-starter
>>in fandom due to the middle class/middle age trend in fandom at the
>>moment.
>
>It's been done. Pennsic. Baitcon.
There has been an SF con in Russia for many years, the name translates
approximately to Mosquito Place. The facilities are a little on the
basic side, but very few conventions can offer you the choice of two
oceans for your morning dip.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com