[R]ish -- Long Term Storage
Terry Pratchett
Various threads involving this have suggested that good ol' printing and
paper is the best way. I considered this and thought: yes, wow, good
idea, buy a few reams of good quality paper, print everything out in a
good typeface for future OCR'ing and...
Hold on. For all the books, this'd involve a stack of A4 about 36"
high. Financial records: about 5". Letters? It'd be a case of taking
quite a few days to edit them down or printing off the whole lot, in
which case there's another 24" high. Misc stuff, short stories -- oh,
allow 4".
Already there's almost 6' of A4. That's got to be stored properly.
We've got a fair amount of room, but the storage stuff -- file boxes,
etc -- will add a few cubic feet to the amount. Then there's a
cupboard, open shelves wouldn't be such a good idea.
We end up with something like a wardrobe, the actual written content of
which could fit on a CD.
--
Terry Pratchett
Peter H. Wendt
>We end up with something like a wardrobe, the actual written content of
>which could fit on a CD.
Banks and insurance companies (which are usually very concerned about
their "junk collections") store a lot on 2.6GB / 5.25" optical disks
(Write Once). The advantage is, that any changes to the original record
written can be tracked later on. However: the drives and media are not
cheap. And the long-term reliability is a good game of guessing.
But that's the same on magnetic tape / disks and CD-Rs. They *should* be
reliable for *at least* 10 years ... but what is 10 years ?
An pretty unimportant episode in time.
In the private area CD-R seem to be a good solution. Writers are going
cheaper (if they are IDE), the media-prices are down low in the meantime
... and if you have stuff to dislocate on a CD and don't look at it at
least once in the 10 years estimated lifetime of a CD-R ... it wasn't
worth keeping anyway :-)
my 2 cents worth
Peter in Germany
Emma
<snip>
> ... and if you have stuff to dislocate on a CD and don't look at it at
> least once in the 10 years estimated lifetime of a CD-R ... it wasn't
> worth keeping anyway :-)
>
I thought CD-R's lasted 200 years? Have I been suckered by false
advertising?
Emma
Remove TT to email me. Cheese messages welcome.
Peter H. Wendt
>> ... and if you have stuff to dislocate on a CD and don't look at it
at
>> least once in the 10 years estimated lifetime of a CD-R ... it wasn't
>> worth keeping anyway :-)
>>
>
>I thought CD-R's lasted 200 years? Have I been suckered by false
>advertising?
Hmm ... the lab tests predicted a 200-years lifetime in most cases,
that's true.
But: these tests are a crude mix of forced (provocated) aging,
statistics, experience and Voodoo.
As for statistics, which can be used to proove almost everything and
experience, which includes human errors - the lifetime is *still* a
guessing game.
On conventional CDs it turned out that the transparent plastic carrier
(PVC) went through chemical changes over the years and gets yellow, the
damped alloy reflector layer peels of or darkenes - and the CD becomes
unuseable.
On CD-R it is not yet fully qualified how long the layer(s) may stay
unchanged and readable. There are different technologies and structures
currently in use. The lifetime has been qualified for the first
generation Write-Once medias: and the manufacturers guarantee a lifetime
of 10 years. Well knowing the facts I hope. (That's what I use as
minimum reference time).
OTOH: give a little kid 2 minutes with a screwdriver and the estimated
lifetime of *any* media drops to Zero. ;-)
Peter in Germany
(actually cursing about a CD-R which is not accepted by a server
CD-drive)
Mark Alexander
<funky...@hotmail.com> told us:
>I thought CD-R's lasted 200 years? Have I been suckered by false
>advertising?
Hmm - in some ways yes, in some ways no... :)
Good quality CDRs last 100s of years, (You gets wot you pays for :),
lesser CDRs _should_ last this long, but using them, and leaving them
under UV lights tends to fog the plastic and 'optical' parts quite
quickly (A heavily used CDR can only last a year - I killed my copy of
the NT4 beta when it was around in about 6 months by installing and
maintaining it on a few large networks :)
Another problem is that _unwritten_ discs don't last very long at all if
you're not careful with them - they are mildly photo reactive until
written... (I killed a batch this way as well) [1]
Otherwise, CDRs are _great_ (I use them a lot anyway) for long term
backups - I put a full backup onto CDR every month, and increment onto
floppy disc. The blanks cost me about £1:30 each if I buy bulk (for
medium quality)
HTH->HAND
Marky
--
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[______]| http://pingu.chu.cam.ac.uk/~mda23 [Down 'til Oct 98]
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Mark Alexander
Alexander) told us:
>Another problem is that _unwritten_ discs don't last very long at all if
>you're not careful with them - they are mildly photo reactive until
>written... (I killed a batch this way as well) [1]
The footnote here _should_ have been <EG>
[1] You learn lots about CDRs by creating beer coasters... I have gold
ones, and silver ones, and blue ones _and_ green ones :>
Georgie Forth
>We end up with something like a wardrobe, the actual written content of
>which could fit on a CD.
And so it should. Imagine cutting down all those trees to make the paper
when they could be made into wardrobes instead!
Georgie
--
______
George Forth \ / http://www.bec-boy.dircon.co.uk/
irc: CuteBeast \ / gfo...@bigfoot.com
\/ Public PGP Key available on request
Mark Alexander
<peterh...@gecits-eu.com> told us:
>>I thought CD-R's lasted 200 years? Have I been suckered by false
>>advertising?
>
>Hmm ... the lab tests predicted a 200-years lifetime in most cases,
>that's true.
>But: these tests are a crude mix of forced (provocated) aging,
>statistics, experience and Voodoo.
<G> i.e. by giving them to post grad student, and telling them to break
them...
>As for statistics, which can be used to proove almost everything and
>experience, which includes human errors - the lifetime is *still* a
>guessing game.
It rather depends on how critical the data is you're storing on them of
course... :)
>On conventional CDs it turned out that the transparent plastic carrier
>(PVC) went through chemical changes over the years and gets yellow, the
>damped alloy reflector layer peels of or darkenes - and the CD becomes
>unuseable.
Yes - and now they 'supposedly' have a fix for the fogging in the new
readers, and new generations of CDs *will not peel* (hmmm - I wonder...
:)
>On CD-R it is not yet fully qualified how long the layer(s) may stay
>unchanged and readable. There are different technologies and structures
>currently in use. The lifetime has been qualified for the first
>generation Write-Once medias: and the manufacturers guarantee a lifetime
>of 10 years. Well knowing the facts I hope. (That's what I use as
>minimum reference time).
Assuming they have their usual '85% triple redundancy' this means they
reckon at leqast 85% of all discs will survive 3 times this long...
>OTOH: give a little kid 2 minutes with a screwdriver and the estimated
>lifetime of *any* media drops to Zero. ;-)
Kid - who said you needed a kid????
Marky
John Leith
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Various threads involving this have suggested that good ol' printing and
>paper is the best way. I considered this and thought: yes, wow, good
<Snip>
>Already there's almost 6' of A4. That's got to be stored properly.
<Snip>
>We end up with something like a wardrobe, the actual written content of
>which could fit on a CD.
Another thing to remember is that apparently paper storage is the most
common cause of structural failure in buildings. People think its only
some paper, paper is light, we'll put it in the loft.
John Leith
--
jle...@iap.org.uk / jle...@technologist.com
AFP Code 1.0 AC d? S:+ a UP++ R--- F+ h+ p5- OS--: C++++ M- pp--- L+ c
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Peter H. Wendt
>The footnote here _should_ have been <EG>
>
>[1] You learn lots about CDRs by creating beer coasters... I have gold
>ones, and silver ones, and blue ones _and_ green ones :>
That's the purpose I use the ones I'd soiled - for one reason or
another.
After a while you have a nice sample of colours :-)
.... and after a while you will also notify colour changes on the part
of the CD-R not written until it stopped *and* you will learn about
tendencies of various brand CD-Rs to peel off the reflector layer after
the 10th or 20th glass of beer is placed on it ...
But serious: the differences between the various CD-Rs are significant.
The cheaper ones have much higher error-rates (on writing as well as on
reading the CD later), some are basically unusable for Audio (I use CD-R
to backup my old analog records) and some are not even recognized by the
writer (a Philips CDRW 3310 btw.).
Nontheless: you are shot dead if you *must* rely on them. Nothing
compares with a good, professional made CD-ROM. Copies of a software on
CD-Rs for mass-installation purposes are only substitutes - and
sometimes no good ones.
So I'm a bit indifferent about backing data on CD-R. If you back the
*entire* machine once a month - it might work fine, apart from the pile
of crap you get after some time (the no longer used CDs). And it is also
indiscutable if you have to backup around 6 - 8 GB of data and / or (in
my case) an entire network. I prefer 4mm DAT-tapes .... obvious
decision, eh ?
Again my 2 cents. FWIW
Peter in Germany
Tom Mailloux
<snip>
> We end up with something like a wardrobe, the actual written content of
> which could fit on a CD.
> --
> Terry Pratchett
I can't argue with that, Terry. Which do you want, though? Convenience
or security?
Seriously, any backup will work if you make it seriously redundant.
Three or four copies is not too much for material that is not
replacable.
Tom
--
¬ is spambane.
Tom Mailloux
> I thought CD-R's lasted 200 years? Have I been suckered by false
> advertising?
Probably. Since CD-R has been around less than 5 years, how would anyone
*know* what will happen in 200 years? Also, even if the media survives,
will there be working readers that far down the road. Hell, 200 years
ago we didn't even have ball point pens!
Stewart Tolhurst
Mark Alexander <ma...@rcp.co.uk> wrote in article
<35e47b5e...@news.rmplc.co.uk>...
> Once upon a time (Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:57:43 GMT), ma...@rcp.co.uk (Mark
> [1] You learn lots about CDRs by creating beer coasters... I have gold
> ones, and silver ones, and blue ones _and_ green ones :>
I use AOL disks that come free with magazines!! Much cheaper and they are
about as much use as a dead CD-R.
BTW there was loads of advertising when CD's first came out from Philips
the slogan of which was "Perfect sound forever". This is not true for a
number of reasons - Perfect - not exactly the current sampling rate/bits
allows a max dynamic range of 96 Db (not quite enough for an awful lot of
classical music) and a highest freqency of (about) 20KHz (I know we can't
hear above this but there is a lot of debate about how much supersonic
compents of sound effect the percieved quality)
Forever - aside from previously mentioned problems there was a number of
problems back in the early 90s when the ink used to print on some CDs was
found to become corrosive to alumium when it came in contact with certain
types of chlorine (specfically the one used to bleach paper - can you see
where this is going...). The paper case in which some Cds (mainly singles)
was stored caused the ink to react and destroy the reflective layer - and
you thought that gold CDs were a waste of time!
Stewart
--
Stewart Tolhurst
Remove everything from the . to the @ to email me!
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~musf0012/
Mark Alexander
<97344209...@brookes.ac.uk> told us:
>BTW there was loads of advertising when CD's first came out from Philips
>the slogan of which was "Perfect sound forever". This is not true for a
>number of reasons - Perfect - not exactly the current sampling rate/bits
>allows a max dynamic range of 96 Db (not quite enough for an awful lot of
>classical music) and a highest freqency of (about) 20KHz (I know we can't
>hear above this but there is a lot of debate about how much supersonic
>compents of sound effect the percieved quality)
The reason we can perceive imperfections in CDs which the data claims we
shouldn't is because the CD does store phase information very
effectively at high (~15khz) sampling rates (because the sampling rate
is too high) - i.e. It hits the 1/2 Nyquist rate [2] and screws up at
about 11kHz.
Now - while human ears are not very good at picking up phase shift at
low frequencies, but are remarkably good at this at high frequencies
[1]. This means that the stereo effect is lost above 11kHz, which is a
bit crap really.
If the sampling rate is adjusted to >35kHz, so phase is maintained up to
about 20kHz, then the sound quality is much better.
Marky
[1] Any biologists know why?
[2] Nyquist rate = Maximum frequency that can be reliably stored without
data loss - usually 1/2 the sampling rate (for CDs 44kHz). 1/2 Nyquist
rate is the maximum rate for which phase information can be reliably
stored, and as a rule of thumb is ~1/2 the Nyquist rate - i.e. 11kHz
for CDs.
Peter H. Wendt
>Seriously, any backup will work if you make it seriously redundant.
>Three or four copies is not too much for material that is not
>replacable.
... and you do a good work if you use different media:
- backup on Floppies
- backup on DAT tape
- backup on CD-R
- on a spare JAZ
- *and* print the whole stuff (Hope you have a good scanner !)
I once was confronted with a customers request which I first
misunderstood as a misplaced "1st of April joke": he had printed *all*
of his text files before he got a new computer - and now wanted to OCR
the whole stuff into e-readable form again.
I did not believe the truth of the situation until I visited him in his
office. 3 large, think and overweighted moving boxes full of A4-paper
.... =8O
[He bought an A4-scanner with automatic document feeder later. No idea
how long it takes him to get the stuff back into his new machine....]
From the point of long-term storage this wasn't optimal as well ... the
guy smoked - and ... well ... you probably remember the "Fahrenheit
451"-bit ....
Peter in Germany
Denise Connell
>
(snip re discussion re paper storage for later optical scanning)
> We end up with something like a wardrobe, the actual written content of
> which could fit on a CD.
Try emailing folks at the British Museum and/or the Library of Congress
- they've got the same problem you do, only on a bigger scale. I
imagine the Librarians there have given this a lot of thought. Ook!
Denise
http://www.snapdragongifts.com
They got the library at Alexandria, they're not getting mine
John Klein
: Various threads involving this have suggested that good ol' printing and
: paper is the best way. I considered this and thought: yes, wow, good
: idea, buy a few reams of good quality paper, print everything out in a
: good typeface for future OCR'ing and...
: Hold on. For all the books, this'd involve a stack of A4 about 36"
: high. Financial records: about 5". Letters? It'd be a case of taking
: quite a few days to edit them down or printing off the whole lot, in
: which case there's another 24" high. Misc stuff, short stories -- oh,
: allow 4".
Usually I use old hard drives - a few smaller ones or one larger one. Just
stick them into the computer, copy all the stuff onto them, then
disconnect them and put them in a corner somewhere[1]. The hard drive formats
don't seem to change dramatically, so they'd -probably- still be readable ten
years from now. Of course, anything is going to be pretty much a crap shoot on
that particular score, since storage formats seem to go out of style in a mere
handful of years these days... unless you count tape backups, which have been
around since dinosaurs roamed the earth and people trusted politicians, and
are generally used by professional computer scientists working at ISPs to back
up huge amounts of data.
[1] My definition of 'somewhere': a locked, fireproof safe guarded by rabid
man-eating tigers.
Derek.Moody
> > least once in the 10 years estimated lifetime of a CD-R ... it wasn't
> > worth keeping anyway :-)
> >
>
> advertising?
Yep: My last batch only worked for 196 years and they had to be copied from a
set that were only 183 years old, the current ones are still OK but they've
only been going about 60 years so far... :-(
I have reason to expect acid-free punched cards or paper tape to last _much_
longer if it's kept dry.
(You'll need _three_ extra wardrobes though.)
Cheerio,
--
>> derek...@clara.net
Stewart Tolhurst
Denise Connell <wit...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<35D9B2...@ix.netcom.com>...
> Terry Pratchett wrote:
> >
> (snip re discussion re paper storage for later optical scanning)
<more snipage>
I believe that The Bodlian Library here in Oxford actually goes underground
over a fair part of the city. They've been a copyright library since the
year dot... It's quite bizzare when you think about it. No wonder then
that it can take some time for your books to arrive after you've requested
them!
Stewart
T Mark Hall
Tolhurst <97344209...@brookes.ac.uk> writes
multiple systems, diskettes (labelled Green, Orange, Red and Yellow, but
referred to as "ORGYs") for day by day low level stuff and then a daily
tape for all the days work, weekly and monthly system backups, the
monthly ones always kept off-site. Having just had my office flooded by
a malfunctioning aircon system, I still recommend off-site backups. :-)
--
T Mark Hall
Wrestle poodles and win!
Patrick Dersjant
>In alt.fan.pratchett, Mark Alexander was seen to say...
>
>>Otherwise, CDRs are _great_ (I use them a lot anyway) for long term
>>backups - I put a full backup onto CDR every month, and increment onto
>>floppy disc. The blanks cost me about £1:30 each if I buy bulk (for
>>medium quality)
>
>Two questions: How much can one of these things hold?
> What software is recommended for <ahem> Microsargghhh!
Two answers:
About 650 MB sounds about right.
I wouldn't be able to give you sw recommendations - most writers ship
with reasonably decent programs., and almost all of them are written
for Microsargghhh in one spelling or another. Seems they sell more
that way <g>...
Patrick
Do you really need to know?
Terry Pratchett wrote:
> Various threads involving this have suggested that good ol' printing and
> paper is the best way.
<snip the dtails of all the inches of paper...>
> We end up with something like a wardrobe, the actual written content of
> which could fit on a CD.
> --
> Terry Pratchett
Well... I DO have a half-a-bedroom I'm not using...and I'd NEVER read it
(specially since you'd be smart and SEAL it all, RIGHT, pTerry, OBE, sir?).
It would be perfectly safe. [1]
The Lone Lunatic (and part time storage admin)
Partner to the lone Scytheman
[1]And if you believe this, I've got some Real estate in Florida to sell you
:)
Do you really need to know?
Isn't that a surprise :)
Lunatic again :)
Terry Pratchett
<tgm&n...@k2nesoft.com> writes
>I can't argue with that, Terry. Which do you want, though? Convenience
>or security?
But how secure is said wardrobe? Not from fire, in the ordinary house.
Not, if it comes to that, from theft of contents, either. But a small
box of CDs is easier to keep safe.
Anywa, I'm probably going to end up with CD-R...lets dface it, I don't
*need* 200 year storage, just something with at least a ten year
lifetime. As the time approaches, it gets moved on to whatever is then
the flavour of the month...
--
Terry Pratchett
HORTER!!!!!
<peterh...@gecits-eu.com> wrote:
> (I use CD-R to backup my old analog records)
Never heard that phrase before. Interesting application of current
buzzwords to older technology.
Horter, who just makes tapes, dude (but would prolly copy to CD-R if
the cash were floating around, begging to be spent)
--
Law of Cybernetic Entomology: There is always one more bug.
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Jesus
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes in alt.fan.pratchett
>Anywa, I'm probably going to end up with CD-R...lets dface it
It's not going to last 200 years if you do that to it.
Tom Mailloux
> In article <35D9A4...@k2nesoft.com>, Tom Mailloux
> <tgm&n...@k2nesoft.com> writes
> > . Which do you want, though? Convenience
> >or security?
>
> But how secure is said wardrobe? Not from fire, in the ordinary house.
> Not, if it comes to that, from theft of contents, either. But a small
> box of CDs is easier to keep safe.
True enough. There are levels and varieties of security.
You might want to keep the financial stuff on paper, though. If your
bank safe deposit box (do they call them that in britian?) is large
enough, store a copy there as well as at your office. That should be
managable.
>
> Anywa, I'm probably going to end up with CD-R...lets dface it, I don't
> *need* 200 year storage, just something with at least a ten year
> lifetime. As the time approaches, it gets moved on to whatever is then
> the flavour of the month...
*nods* Go for it. Don't forget to make copies. Good luck!
Tom (who prefers a happy Terry working on more books, not woorying about
storage)
--
¬ is spambane.
Barry Vaughan
>>or security?
>
>But how secure is said wardrobe? Not from fire, in the ordinary house.
>Not, if it comes to that, from theft of contents, either. But a small
>box of CDs is easier to keep safe.
>
>*need* 200 year storage, just something with at least a ten year
>lifetime. As the time approaches, it gets moved on to whatever is then
>the flavour of the month...
You probably already thought of this, but just in case:
You should look into fire-safes, they come in all sizes
(from briefcase up to small wardrobe) and are rated up
to "really rather close to a nuclear explosion" in external
temperature while maintaining a 30-40C internal temperature.
Barry.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Dear God, we paid for all this stuff ourselves,
so thanks for nothing - Bart Simpson
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ba...@samael.demon.co.uk
Peter H. Wendt
>Backing up analog records?
>Never heard that phrase before. Interesting application of current
>buzzwords to older technology.
Oh - well - I could have used the term "digitizing them" but what the
heck ... I just wanted to make a "working copy" of my beloved vinyls to
use on a more regular basis than I did the past years. And most of that
60s and early 70s stuff is not available on regular CD. So it is a sort
of "Backup" - if not "preservation".
Main advantage against commercial CDs: the good old "scratchy-scratch"
noises, which give the incomparable feel of the old long-players, is
also preserved on these "backups" ... ;-)
>Horter, who just makes tapes, dude (but would prolly copy to CD-R if
>the cash were floating around, begging to be spent)
Had a vast of records on 1/4" studio tape running at 19cm/s on the TEAC
...
but CDs are more common today. And it is pretty hard to install a
reel-to-reel tape in a car. (Not to mention the problems occuring on the
attempt to change the tape while driving ....)
But we are coming off the topic. Just an side.
Peter in Germany
Peter H. Wendt
>Anywa, I'm probably going to end up with CD-R...lets dface it, I don't
>*need* 200 year storage, just something with at least a ten year
>lifetime. As the time approaches, it gets moved on to whatever is then
>the flavour of the month...
A good point. Since DVD-recordable (estimated 2.5 - 4GB) is on our
doorsteps we cannot know what is used in 10 years from today.
Laser-Holographic memory ? Maybe. Technology isn't static (luckily).
I would say CD-R is an acceptable nowadays compromise - and a solid
fire-proof safe somewhere in the basement a good investment anyway.
Why bothering with problems to come ? We're living today and waiting
for tomorrows technology won't help anyway.
Peter in Germany
Brett Dixon
<zar...@spammers.screaming.in.hellish.agony.ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
> Usually I use old hard drives - a few smaller ones or one larger one. Just
> stick them into the computer, copy all the stuff onto them, then
> disconnect them and put them in a corner somewhere[1]. The hard drive formats
> don't seem to change dramatically, so they'd -probably- still be readable ten
> years from now. Of course, anything is going to be pretty much a crap shoot on
> that particular score, since storage formats seem to go out of style in a mere
> handful of years these days... unless you count tape backups, which have been
> around since dinosaurs roamed the earth and people trusted politicians, and
> are generally used by professional computer scientists working at ISPs to back
> up huge amounts of data.
Of course, this is using oh-so-fragile magnetic media. Too much power
going through the place and it's useless. And we all want the survivors of
the nuclear holocaust to be able to read Pratchett, don't we?
John Leith
<jhe...@pathcom.com> wrote:
>Just realized sumpin else: PTERRY USED A TAGG!!!!!!!!!
>
>Isn't that a surprise :)
>
He's probably just trying to improve has AFPurity score. :-)
Barry Vaughan
<jle...@iap.org.uk> writes
>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:40:31 -0400, Do you really need to know?
><jhe...@pathcom.com> wrote:
>
>>Just realized sumpin else: PTERRY USED A TAGG!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>Isn't that a surprise :)
>>
>
>He's probably just trying to improve has AFPurity score. :-)
>
Terry agreed a long time ago to use the [R] tag when
all of his articles were declared to be relevant to
Pratchett fans therefore simplifying the tagging.
David Goddard
> >[1] You learn lots about CDRs by creating beer coasters... I have gold
> >ones, and silver ones, and blue ones _and_ green ones :>
>
> That's the purpose I use the ones I'd soiled - for one reason or
> another.
> After a while you have a nice sample of colours :-)
I still find, though, that it is far more *satisfying* to use AOL or
Compuserve free disks as coasters, although the CD-Rs are much prettier
(blue is my favourite by a long way).
Major use in *my* office for spoiled disks is to hang them up as mirrors
as part of the Early Warning System for when people sneak up on you.
This says a lot about my working environment (I fear the Big Cardboard Tube).
...
> Nontheless: you are shot dead if you *must* rely on them. Nothing
> compares with a good, professional made CD-ROM. Copies of a software on
> CD-Rs for mass-installation purposes are only substitutes - and
> sometimes no good ones.
We often chuck the latest build of our software on a CD-R to send out as
a bug fix (not that we have any bugs, you understand, just "issues").
Sometimes these are completely uninstallable on cheap CD-ROM drives.
> So I'm a bit indifferent about backing data on CD-R. If you back the
> *entire* machine once a month - it might work fine, apart from the pile
> of crap you get after some time (the no longer used CDs). And it is also
> indiscutable if you have to backup around 6 - 8 GB of data and / or (in
> my case) an entire network. I prefer 4mm DAT-tapes .... obvious
> decision, eh ?
On my home box I've got a QIC 80 tape device (everyone needs a bit of
legacy hardware) and it sucks badly - it's spoiled my outlook on tape
backup totally <g>
Dave
--
David Goddard ~ Check my headers to reply by e-mail
Wanted: Original .sig
David Goddard
> but CDs are more common today. And it is pretty hard to install a
> reel-to-reel tape in a car. (Not to mention the problems occuring on the
> attempt to change the tape while driving ....)
I'm sooooo tempted to try and put an mp3 player in my car - a 6 CD
autochanger just isn't enough (not that I've got one anyway...)
Dave
--
David Goddard ~ Check my headers to reply by e-mail
If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted.
Mark Alexander
stephe...@bigfoot.com (Stephen Booth) told us:
>> What software is recommended for <ahem> Microsargghhh!
>
>I use Adaptech Easy CD Creator.
I use CDR-win.
>Incidentally unless you want to make a lot of cup mats and want
>to write at 2x or above speed you really have to have SCSI CD-R
>drive and a SCSI disk to act as a temporary area.
Hmm - IDE HDD -> SCSI CDR works at 4x with some slack for me - make sure
it's a UDMA IDE though...
Marky
--
___ | Bringing mini's to the Denizens of AFP since 13/8/98
_/ \ | Honoury Founder Member of the Guild of Non-Titanic Seers
[______]| email : mda23 (at) hermes.cam.ac.uk Tel: +44 7775 942624
0 0 | http://pingu.chu.cam.ac.uk/~mda23 [Down 'til Oct 98]
Mark Alexander
Goddard) told us:
{CDRs}
>Major use in *my* office for spoiled disks is to hang them up as mirrors
>as part of the Early Warning System for when people sneak up on you.
>This says a lot about my working environment (I fear the Big Cardboard Tube).
Ah - I've had to tune my floorboards :)
Terry Pratchett
writes
>
>On my home box I've got a QIC 80 tape device (everyone needs a bit of
>legacy hardware) and it sucks badly - it's spoiled my outlook on tape
>backup totally <g>
I had a tape drive which decided to eat tapes, so: no more tape drives.
And, I've now decided, no more backup that compresses (other than Zips)
your data. Something always goes wrong...always.
--
Terry Pratchett
John Leith
>We often chuck the latest build of our software on a CD-R to send out as
>a bug fix (not that we have any bugs, you understand, just "issues").
For any 'issues' we come accross I have made some 'UDF'[1] forms
>Sometimes these are completely uninstallable on cheap CD-ROM drives.
There is an issue on drives slower than 4 speed and faster then 24
speed[2] when using the gold[3] discs.
>On my home box I've got a QIC 80 tape device (everyone needs a bit of
>legacy hardware) and it sucks badly - it's spoiled my outlook on tape
>backup totally <g>
How long did it take you to manage to get it to do that for you?
John Leith
[1] Un-Documented Features.
[2]It has to do with the frequency of the laser used to read the disc
apparently.
[3] Phthalocyanine, I love the sound of that word.
--
jle...@iap.org.uk / jle...@technologist.com
AFP Code 1.0 AC d? S:+ a UP++ R--- F+ h+ p5- OS--: C++++ M- pp--- L+ c B+
Cn PT++ PU45- 5++(missed 3 episodes, bum) !X MT+ eV+>+++ r++++ y+++ End
Brett Dixon
> as part of the Early Warning System for when people sneak up on you.
> This says a lot about my working environment (I fear the Big Cardboard Tube).
My summer job gave out 3 foot foam tubes to everyone to help relieve
stress before we made a major move.
Amazingly, some people can make these suckers hurt!
--
Brett Dixon
AFPiance to the lovely Anejo.
(Who I truly believe is female.)
Peter H. Wendt
>On my home box I've got a QIC 80 tape device (everyone needs a bit
>of legacy hardware) and it sucks badly - it's spoiled my outlook on
tape
>backup totally <g>
I see. I had several of these little critters the past 10 years. None of
them worked reliably. The last one was a TR-1 Travan tape from Seagate
..... If I would get 5DM for every 15 seconds of continous cursing about
this piece of crapnology I were rich.
(Funny: I *could* have returned it ... but I didn't. Why ?)
To be fair & honest: I also have a HP Surestore 1533, which is pretty
picky about the tapes. The silly cheap Archive Viper 2/4GB I found in a
dumpster and repaired the broken connector pin takes virtually every
tape (except TDK audio grade) .... the expensive HP doesn't even accept
most Maxell or Sony tapes.
Is that fair ? Obviously.
Peter in Germany
Peter H. Wendt
>I had a tape drive which decided to eat tapes, so: no more tape drives.
Hahaha. Bon Appetit !
(Grunch, crunch, munch "Burp !" ... there goes your monday backup)
>And, I've now decided, no more backup that compresses (other than Zips)
>your data. Something always goes wrong...always.
Oh well. Apart from the disadvantage that *software compression* takes
longer to get ready with the stuff ... the error-rate is a bit higher.
But not very much. Most backup programs offer
- no compression
- compression for speed
- compression for size
where the latter ones take longer than the first one if the drive
doesn't support hardware compression (with own compression chip).
But why bothering with this stuff, since CD-R might be the better
solution.
"The only data that survived the crash are those which confirm that I
still owe the state some money ..."
Sez Murphy: "There is an inverse relation between the importance of the
data and the chance to get them back on a restore."
Peter in Germany
Peter H. Wendt
>My summer job gave out 3 foot foam tubes to everyone to help relieve
>stress before we made a major move.
*My* job requires to have vomit bags and aspirin pills at hand - for the
customer - when we tell them what's left from their valuable data after
the crash they'd just experienced.
It is rather depressing seing a 45 year old IT-manager banging his head
against the wall again and again ... after the equivalent of 2.000 years
of manpower have gone down the drain.
(I insisted to switch to frog-pills instead of aspirin .... but only few
in the company got the joke ... Too bad.)
Peter in Germany
Anthony Frost
> > but CDs are more common today. And it is pretty hard to install a
> > reel-to-reel tape in a car. (Not to mention the problems occuring on the
> > attempt to change the tape while driving ....)
>
> I'm sooooo tempted to try and put an mp3 player in my car - a 6 CD
> autochanger just isn't enough (not that I've got one anyway...)
You have of course seen http://www.chaos.org.uk/~altman/mp3mobile/
haven't you?
:-)
Anthony
--
"The moving finger writes, and having writ, backspaces a bit, deletes
the last word and replaces it with "unctuous", reformats the paragraph,
adjusts the font size, and adds a gigantic sig of a sleeping pussy cat
and a quote from a poem." - Omar Khayyam, on his second day on USENET.
Brett Dixon
> Hi !
>
> >My summer job gave out 3 foot foam tubes to everyone to help relieve
> >stress before we made a major move.
>
> *My* job requires to have vomit bags and aspirin pills at hand - for the
> customer - when we tell them what's left from their valuable data after
> the crash they'd just experienced.
> It is rather depressing seing a 45 year old IT-manager banging his head
> against the wall again and again ... after the equivalent of 2.000 years
> of manpower have gone down the drain.
I think I'd just put a vending machine in for these items and rake in some
extra cash. Of course, I'd be the guy who gets nailed to the wall if that
guy's backups didn't run because the tape wasn't loaded correctly.
Of course, I also got blamed if the backups didn't run because the Unix
SysAdmins didn't set up the cron jobs right. Not sure why it was my fault,
I only know enough UNIX for simple stuff and didn't feel right learning
more on the expensive enterprise servers.
> (I insisted to switch to frog-pills instead of aspirin .... but only few
> in the company got the joke ... Too bad.)
I've always assumed Dired Frog Pills were more like a Prozac or similar
substance.
> Peter in Germany
Wolfgang Schelongowski
"Peter H. Wendt" <peterh...@gecits-eu.com> writes:
>*My* job requires to have vomit bags and aspirin pills at hand - for the
>customer - when we tell them what's left from their valuable data after
>the crash they'd just experienced.
In the case below I'd suggest cyanide pills or arsenic.
>It is rather depressing seing a 45 year old IT-manager banging his head
>against the wall again and again ... after the equivalent of 2.000 years
>of manpower have gone down the drain.
An IT-manager who doesn't *ensure* that his valuable data is regularly
backed up (with copies moved to reasonable safe places) should be put
out of its misery. If local laws prevent that it is of utmost
importance to fire him immediately - do never ever let it into any
building of the company again lest he do more damage.
There is one exceptions to that, namely 'ultra vires' e.g.
1) The boss said "DON'T!!!!!"
or
2) The IT-manager has just started its job and inherited a cesspit.
However, lack of knowledge does _not_ count as 'ultra vires'.
--
Wolfgang Schelongowski Don't use my `From:', use my `Reply-To:'.
"You, sir, are _no_gentleman_," said Lord Rust.
"I _knew_ there was something about me that I liked."
-- Terry Pratchett, Jingo
David Goddard
> > I'm sooooo tempted to try and put an mp3 player in my car - a 6 CD
> > autochanger just isn't enough (not that I've got one anyway...)
>
> You have of course seen http://www.chaos.org.uk/~altman/mp3mobile/
> haven't you?
Oh, yes - I wouldn't have had an idea as good as that on my own <g>
I'd settle for an mp3 walkman instead tho'
--
David Goddard ~ Check my headers to reply by e-mail
You know the oxygen masks on airplanes? I don't think there's really any
oxygen. I think they're just to muffle the screams - Rita Rudner
David Goddard
> An IT-manager who doesn't *ensure* that his valuable data is regularly
> backed up (with copies moved to reasonable safe places) should be put
> out of its misery. If local laws prevent that it is of utmost
> importance to fire him immediately - do never ever let it into any
> building of the company again lest he do more damage.
Or just promoted, a la Dilbert Principle. The only risk in this
strategy is that he then becomes the cause of the ultra vires problem...
> There is one exceptions to that, namely 'ultra vires' e.g.
> 1) The boss said "DON'T!!!!!"
More often than not, the boss says "Yeah fine, whatever. However, you
must do THIS[1] first."
Dave
[1] And I mean THIS in the plural sense :-)
--
David Goddard ~ Check my headers to reply by e-mail
Warranty and guarantee clauses are voided by payment of the invoice.
David Goddard
> Or just promoted, a la Dilbert Principle. The only risk in this
> strategy is that he then becomes the cause of the ultra vires problem...
^^
Not to say that all incompetent managment types are male <g>
--
David Goddard ~ Check my headers to reply by e-mail
Lead me not into temptation. I can find it myself.
Mark Alexander
stephe...@bigfoot.com (Stephen Booth) told us:
>Under what O/S. IME you can get away with IDE -> SCSI (so long
>as the IDE is UDMA) under NT 4 but under W95 it fails about 1 in
>3 (Data underrun errors).
98 and linux.
Failure rate of about 1 in 20 underr 98 (usually me being silly, like
starting something I was sure was on the other HDD which wasn't :)
Only ever burnt one CD under linux - guess I'll have some more reliable
figures when I get back to college and run the OTOS [1] more of the
time.
Marky
[1] One True OS
Wolfgang Schelongowski
>Wolfgang Schelongowski <SKar...@LOCALHOST.ruhr.de>
writes in alt.fan.pratchett:
>> An IT-manager who doesn't *ensure* that his valuable data is regularly
>> backed up (with copies moved to reasonable safe places) should be put
>> out of its misery. If local laws prevent that it is of utmost
...
>Or just promoted, a la Dilbert Principle. The only risk in this
>strategy is that he then becomes the cause of the ultra vires problem...
I mentioned the story in <35E1B1E7...@gecits-eu.com> yesterday
evening and was immediately chastized by 'em young 'uns. "Make the
punishment fit he crime, lock said IT-manager in a room until he has
reconstructed the missing data[1]", which was 2000 man years worth.
It seems I'm becoming soft with age.
Peter H. Wendt
>An IT-manager who doesn't *ensure* that his valuable data is regularly
>backed up (with copies moved to reasonable safe places) should be put
>out of its misery. If local laws prevent that it is of utmost
>importance to fire him immediately - do never ever let it into any
>building of the company again lest he do more damage.
>
>There is one exceptions to that, namely 'ultra vires' e.g.
>1) The boss said "DON'T!!!!!"
>or
>2) The IT-manager has just started its job and inherited a cesspit.
>
>However, lack of knowledge does _not_ count as 'ultra vires'.
>
Like always this particular case was the typical odd combination of
"worst cases".
1. The machines' RAID array was already running with one bad drive
2. The second drive died before the first dead was recognized
3. It happened during the night, but *before* the backup started
4. A crew-member from the customer tried to replace a drive
5. this - logically - did not work.
6. Since it was the day *after* they changed to a new operating system
the old backup could not be used (that easy) without changing back to
the old OS ... which could not be done since the drives are bad
7. The vital data however was stored on a different media as well ...
which turned out to have an "unrecoverable tape error"
8. Panic broke out
It took me 3 days to get the problem fixed "the hardware way" - with
exchanging drive electronics to get the missing harddisk for the RAID to
work again, run a backup and *then* replace the defective drives.
At least it was a good exam on what could go wrong. It were - all in all
- minor problems that added to a big one.
Peter in Germany
Lindsay
Terry Pratchett wrote in message ...
>>legacy hardware) and it sucks badly - it's spoiled my outlook on tape
>>backup totally <g>
>
>
>your data. Something always goes wrong...always.
I hate to say this, but Zips can have problems... We currently have a Zip
disk stuck in the drive, which the computer says doesn't exist. We have also
had two disks overwritten with information from the disk previously in the
drive. This can be regarded as a bit of a bummer when you lose 300 pages of
a text book...
Linz (back again...)
--
oh, not really a pedant, I wouldn't say
reply to: li...@earthling.net
Terry Pratchett
<peterh...@gecits-eu.com> writes
>
>Like always this particular case was the typical odd combination of
>"worst cases".
My current interest in long-term storage stems from the fact that on one
day a couple of weeks ago, on our network that usually has three main
machines on it:
No1 got a dose of Win95 and a complete reinstallation was required;
The Jaz drive on No2 fell over;
The hard drive on No.3 went physically bad.
That meant a little careful backing-up while breathing calmly, because
when things start going wrong like that *they carry on going wrong*.
Eight years involved with the nuclear industry have taught me that when
nothing can possible go wrong and every avenue has been covered, *then*
is the time to buy a house on the next continent.
--
Terry Pratchett
Terry Pratchett
writes
>
>
>I hate to say this, but Zips can have problems... We currently have a Zip
>disk stuck in the drive, which the computer says doesn't exist.
I mean Zip as in PKzip/unzip...I trust *that*.
--
Terry Pratchett
le an thi-nguyen
%
% I had a tape drive which decided to eat tapes, so: no more tape drives.
%
% And, I've now decided, no more backup that compresses (other than Zips)
% your data. Something always goes wrong...always.
So... how does one back up one's stuff? If not with CD-R, or tapes, or
Zip disks, then what? What's reliable and feasible? A network-type
backup? Or maybe secondary hard drives? Is that the best way to go?
AtnL
pend...@usa.net
Bob Fretwell
pend...@usa.net
In article <bbsZZBAe...@unseen.demon.co.uk>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Peter H. Wendt
>Eight years involved with the nuclear industry have taught me that when
>nothing can possible go wrong and every avenue has been covered, *then*
>is the time to buy a house on the next continent.
<cynism>
That's the reason why the estate prices rose up in Lockerbie ... the
next Jumbo would (statistically) crash somewhere else.
</cynism>
You should not start to worry when things run flawless - or you loose
sleep at night. It is early enough beginning to worry when problems
start.
Sure: many problems have a tendency to go massively wrong, once starting
to go wrong. But that's the same in every part of life - with computers,
cars and marriages as well.
What to do ?
Try to eliminate the obvious problems ... and try to come as far as
possible.
Peter in Germany
Margaret Tarbet
on Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:57:32 GMT,
pend...@usa.net wrote:
>Yeah, PKZip is great ... until you get the inevitable evil CRC error :)
Whence the rule to make several copies...on different
*physical* devices. :-)
---------------------------------
Margaret Tarbet / tar...@swaa.com / Cambridge Massachusetts 02180
---------------------------------
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
-- Samuel Beckett
Staffan Tjernström
Peter H. Wendt wrote in message <35E3C446...@gecits-eu.com>...
>Like always this particular case was the typical odd combination of
>"worst cases".
>
"Worst cases" never come alone, as witnessed by the following episode at a
Colorado Data Center last year.
Friday 6.30pm Data Center looses utility power due to 20" of snow having
fallen in the last 24 hours with wind chill level at -37 deg C[1]. Emergency
backup generator comes Online.
10.40pm Emergency Backup Generator stops running due to pump failure[2]
between main fuel tank and daytime tank[3]. UPS cuts in.
Saturday 12.15am UPS runs out
4am Diesel mechanic arrives through snow storm, manages to restart
generator.
6.36am System once again operational
Every 4-5 hours: shuttles run to the only open fuel station to refill the
day tank with fuel (timing complicated by diesel pumps at station having to
be manually thawed out each time)
Mon 9am Power is restored.
The lesson? Even when you're sure you don't need a backup (in this case the
pump), ensure you have a backup!.
--
The Swedish Chef
AFP 1.1a AC$-SE/UK d@ s++:+ a- UP++ R+ F h- P---- OSNU+:++
C+++ M- pp--- L+ c+ B+ PT--- Pu(70,80) MT++ e++ r+ y? end
http://www.dataphone.se/~staffant
[1] Worst Case number 1
[2] Worst Case number 2
[3] Given the extreme winter climatic conditions, there is one indoor
(rather small) fuel tank, and a much larger underground reservoir. Oil kept
outside would just freeze solid.
John Barberio
tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk says...
> No1 got a dose of Win95 and a complete reinstallation was required;
> The Jaz drive on No2 fell over;
> The hard drive on No.3 went physically bad.
I supose when you get to No.6 those network ID querrys will be
interesting.
no.6% whois no.1
localhost = no.6
DNS no.2
no.6% Iam NaN
- J (Yes, I know its not real unix, so what)
--
123456789|123456789|123456789|123456789|123456789|123456789|12
SigVersion 4.3<9729...@brookes.ac.uk>New .sig file, old posts
This sig has 4 lines of under 72 characters - so should yours!
No web page 'cause I can't be arsed: no quotes either, not one
Wolfgang Schelongowski
Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes:
>My current interest in long-term storage
Basically you should seperate between medium-term (days to months)
and long-term (years). The former is for day-to-day mindless backup of
more or less all data so you can restore your data fast if e.g. your
computer executes that HCF instruction (Halt Catch Fire). Then you just
buy a new computer and mindlessly restore. DAT (DDS2) with around 8GB
capacity for average data seems to be sensible for that purpose.
However, its long term stability is reported not to be so good.
For long term storage you may use
1) printed paper for small volume, but important data
2) CD for medium volume of selected data
3) others (DLT)
In cases 2/3 you should copy the backups to new media once your
selected media go the way of vinyl records.
Remember that for electronic media you need to be able to read the
physical media as well as to interpret it correctly. In fifteen years
from now there may be no program which can make sense of your current
winword-files / speadsheets / whatever. Plain ASCII, TeX, and simple
bitmaps will probably still be understood.
> stems from the fact that on one
>day a couple of weeks ago, on our network that usually has three main
>machines on it:
>No1 got a dose of Win95 and a complete reinstallation was required;
>The Jaz drive on No2 fell over;
>The hard drive on No.3 went physically bad.
>That meant a little careful backing-up while breathing calmly, because
>when things start going wrong like that *they carry on going wrong*.
Definitely.
What I would do in your situation is (have somebody) install a
Linux server and run Samba on it. I'd keep all the important data -
even of the Windows machines - there, and do backups there.
The importance of redundancy, testing the recovery procedures and
storing part of the media away from your home has already been
mentioned in this thread. And I'd keep the local net unaccessible
from the Internet, because electronic vandalism is on the rise.
OTOH you are not me, so you'd better get somebody competent on backing
up etc. whom you trust to create a reliable environment for you. It will
still require some daily attention.
OTG(ripping)H(and) my above mentioned solution can make me a bit
unpopular. Introducing you to Linux may mean giving the monkey
not the key to the banana plantation, but to a whole banana
republic.
>Eight years involved with the nuclear industry have taught me that when
>nothing can possible go wrong and every avenue has been covered, *then*
>is the time to buy a house on the next continent.
Murphy's Law, and the corollarry "Murphy was an optimist" ... You should
limit the kind of emergency cases which you really want to handle
otherwise you'll be storing backup copies on Mars. I wouldn't make
contingency plans for cases like a 20 km asteroid hitting the earth
or an intensive global thermonuclear war.
Gid Holyoake
generously decided to share with us:
> I supose when you get to No.6 those network ID querrys will be
> interesting.
>
> no.6% whois no.1
> localhost = no.6
> DNS no.2
> no.6% Iam NaN
<fx:splutter>
Ye ghods.. I'm glad I'd just put my cuppa *down* before reading this..
it was *very* nearly a YOMANKAM moment :-)
Gid
--
The Most Noble and Exalted Peculiar , Harem Master to Veiled Concubines
Guardian of the Sacred !!!!!'s , Defender of the Temple of AFPdoration
Click on http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gidnsuzi/ for The Irrelevant Page
Lindsay
Terry Pratchett wrote in message ...
>writes
>>
>>
>>I hate to say this, but Zips can have problems... We currently have a Zip
>>disk stuck in the drive, which the computer says doesn't exist.
>
>I mean Zip as in PKzip/unzip...I trust *that*.
Oh, sorry. *That* zip is, to the best of my knowledge, totally
trustworthy...
Linz
Brett Dixon
> >disk stuck in the drive, which the computer says doesn't exist.
>
> I mean Zip as in PKzip/unzip...I trust *that*.
Don't know why. They're as likely to be corrupted as any other file. Seems
like the best way to be secure with zips is to make sure you zip as small
of chunks as possible so corrupted files only cause a small[1] loss of
your data.
[1] But pricelees, at least to the afp.[2]
[2] yes sir, mister great writer sir!
Brett Dixon
<stjer...@gtech.com> wrote:
Wow! Sounds...unpleasant.
> "Worst cases" never come alone, as witnessed by the following episode at a
> Colorado Data Center last year.
<Cronology of the failure snipped for your pleasure.>
> The lesson? Even when you're sure you don't need a backup (in this case the
> pump), ensure you have a backup!.
Wow. With it this bad, was the data center at all productive? Couldn;t you
have shut'er down until the weather was nicer? Or was it something
sensitive enough that it couldn't be down even for an hour... Not that
anybody could get in to work, it sounds like.
Wolfgang Schelongowski
"Peter H. Wendt" <peterh...@gecits-eu.com> writes:
[My opinions about an IT-manager nearly losing 2000 man years due
to bad backup snipped]
>Like always this particular case was the typical odd combination of
>"worst cases".
>1. The machines' RAID array was already running with one bad drive
>2. The second drive died before the first dead was recognized
...
The data was worth around $200,000,000. In that case he could have
spent at least $100,000 for a complete mirror.
>6. Since it was the day *after* they changed to a new operating system
>the old backup could not be used (that easy) without changing back to
>the old OS ... which could not be done since the drives are bad
2. and 6. look like bad procedures/practices due to lack of management
control.
>8. Panic broke out
That's inevitable but the worst thing.
>At least it was a good exam on what could go wrong. It were - all in all
>- minor problems that added to a big one.
But has the IT-manager learnt anything from it? Or will he just think
"Low expenses will make me look good to my boss and I'll switch jobs
in a few months, anyway. I'm gambling that nothing bad will happen
during until then. Apres moi, la deluge!"
BTW I do have a cartoon about the subject of backup. A guy is chained
to the wall of a torture chamber. Left of him stands the torturer with
a cat-o'-nine-tails which has left lots of marks on the delinquents
back. On the right stands a bespectacled balding man in a business
suit, who looks slightly bored, seems to think "How often will
I have to order this before I get pensioned off next year", and says:
"Maybe the next time, Simpson, you'll remember to make back-up copies".
le an thi-nguyen
% In article <bbsZZBAe...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
%
% > I mean Zip as in PKzip/unzip...I trust *that*.
%
% Don't know why. They're as likely to be corrupted as any other file. Seems
% like the best way to be secure with zips is to make sure you zip as small
% of chunks as possible so corrupted files only cause a small[1] loss of
% your data.
The best way is to zip each file individually, not the entire archive
all at once. You minimize your losses this way, and that's about the only
way you can minimize your losses with archives that use compression no
matter what algorithm is used. On Unix flavors, I belive something called
afio can do that, or something.
--
An Thi-Nguyen Le ,_, doesn't byte
Smallest cat in the world -> <.> hates bugs, loves mice
"As the disk drive turns...." <_(_) goes anywhere the email goes
Mark Alexander
9729...@brookes.ac.uk (John Barberio) told us:
>I supose when you get to No.6 those network ID querrys will be
>interesting.
>
>no.6% whois no.1
>localhost = no.6
>DNS no.2
>no.6% Iam NaN
C|N>K
Nice one...
> - J (Yes, I know its not real unix, so what)
I don't care :)
Marky
Peter H. Wendt
>But has the IT-manager learnt anything from it? Or will he just think
>"Low expenses will make me look good to my boss and I'll switch
>jobs in a few months, anyway. I'm gambling that nothing bad will
>happen during until then. Apres moi, la deluge!"
Most likely they all learned from that. The incident happened in a
change phase from one operating system to another - and the "single
point of failure" was the drive array in this case.
In the meantime the company purchased "a sort of" backup server / mirror
server system, where groups of machines hold the backed data so that at
least one combination of server / drive-array is (hopefully) functional.
And they have DLT-roboters now ...
"Show me a fool-proof system ... and I show you the fools that work with
it."
Peter in Germany
Barry R
16:59:00 GMT, le an thi-nguyen wossnamed:
<jason woz ere>
>The best way is to zip each file individually, not the entire archive
>all at once.
It's still no good if your files are 56Meg in size. Each.
I used to store every item of afp, and the files ran to 50meg
(unzipped) for three months.
Barry R. B.F. The Official Sad Bastard
--
AFPinsignificant other to Carol, AFPother half to Meg, the Magpie.
AFPShrink to MEG, and in Ailbhe's Queue
Yes I'm a BOFH, but if you don't stop annoying me,
I'll become a VIOLENT BOFH!!!!!
le an thi-nguyen
% In article <6s438k$2f5$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, on 27 Aug 1998
% 16:59:00 GMT, le an thi-nguyen wossnamed:
%
% >The best way is to zip each file individually, not the entire archive
% >all at once.
%
% It's still no good if your files are 56Meg in size. Each.
Ah... in Unix there's a 'split' utility that just chops up the files so
later you can con'cat'enate them back together.... but you have a definite
point....
Shooty
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <35E3C446...@gecits-eu.com>, "Peter H. Wendt"
> <peterh...@gecits-eu.com> writes
> >
> >Like always this particular case was the typical odd combination of
> >"worst cases".
>
> My current interest in long-term storage stems from the fact that on one
> day a couple of weeks ago, on our network that usually has three main
> machines on it:
>
> No1 got a dose of Win95 and a complete reinstallation was required;
> The Jaz drive on No2 fell over;
> The hard drive on No.3 went physically bad.
>
> That meant a little careful backing-up while breathing calmly, because
> when things start going wrong like that *they carry on going wrong*.
> Eight years involved with the nuclear industry have taught me that when
> nothing can possible go wrong and every avenue has been covered, *then*
> is the time to buy a house on the next continent.
>
> --
> Terry Pratchett
The best method would be a RAID system.
Level 5 RAID gives you total data security, the failure of a disk isn't
noticed by the user as the contents of a failed drive are rebuilt on the
fly to a spare device. Failed disks can be 'hot swapped'. With a 5 disk
RAID 5 system up to two disks can fail without data loss.
RAID 1 mirrors data to two drives, this will allow one to fail without
data loss.
With a RAID 5 system you only need to do a tape or CD backup to take data
offsite incase of fire.
A CD burner is a good idea as well.
We sell raid systems.
Shooty
Peter H. Wendt
>The best method would be a RAID system.
That *was* a RAID system.
>Failed disks can be 'hot swapped'. With a 5 disk
>RAID 5 system up to two disks can fail without data loss.
Nope. Try it out. A single drive failing can be restored from the
left-overs + the redundancy data ... but not two failing drives.
>With a RAID 5 system you only need to do a tape or CD backup to take
data
>offsite incase of fire.
After the fire you will get to know that
- the backup did not work
- cannot be restored due to physical tape error
- the machine you used burned and the (later model) in incompatible
- accidently the tapes were erased
No strategy is 100% fool-proof. Believe me. I've seen that much too
often.
But you have of course a bigger chance to get the lot of the data saved
rather than leaving them alone and hope and pray that nothing will ever
happen.
"Harddisk crashes turn even hardcore atheists into praying whimps."
Peter in Germany
Peter H. Wendt
And another contribution to the "Long Term Storage"-topic:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/Dave/Dr-Fun/df9712/df971202.jpg
Peter in Germany
Derek.Moody
<URL:mailto:an...@mrsystems.co..uk> wrote:
> The best method would be a RAID system.
>
> Level 5 RAID gives you total data security, the failure of a disk isn't
> noticed by the user as the contents of a failed drive are rebuilt on the
> fly to a spare device. Failed disks can be 'hot swapped'. With a 5 disk
> RAID 5 system up to two disks can fail without data loss.
<snip>
> We sell raid systems.
Do you sell systems with:
One of the discs in a different building in case of fire.
One of the discs in a different continent in case of eathquake (or war)
One of the discs in a different solar system in case of nova
One of the discs in a different universe in case...
Ain't no such thing as total data security.
Cheerio,
--
>> derek...@clara.net
le an thi-nguyen
% One of the discs in a different solar system in case of nova
In this particular case wouldn't it be pointless?
the little black kitty
wrote:
>Derek.Moody wrote on Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:41:08 +0100:
>% One of the discs in a different solar system in case of nova
>In this particular case wouldn't it be pointless?
You wish to deny alien archeologists the pleasure of decoding the
discs and the language they hold as well as the joy of reading
whatever it is Pterry is backing up just because the Sun fell victim
to the odd nova? That's rather selfish, but I suppose it's only
human...
--
The little black kitty,
*scratch the kitty's tummy*.
John Barberio
> Derek.Moody wrote on Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:41:08 +0100:
> % One of the discs in a different solar system in case of nova
>
> In this particular case wouldn't it be pointless?
Not as pointles as the actions of HyperRaid Inc who in the year
9994 will market a version that stores one in an alternative reality.
However, stock will fall when a competitor relises that you could just go
to the a reality where the disk didnt fail and take a copy.
However, they will all be wiped out by a catastrophic year 10K bug.
- J
Jenny With the Axe
>After the fire you will get to know that
>- the backup did not work
>- cannot be restored due to physical tape error
If you only learn this after the fire, you deserve what you get.
If you're taking backups without testing whether they can be restored,
you might as well stop taking backups at all.
(who, me, paranoid net nazi? naaaah...)
--
Jenny With the Axe (and the Temper) http://www.algonet.se/~jenny-h/
Goddess of delusions
Jenny With the Axe
>Ah... in Unix there's a 'split' utility that just chops up the files so
>later you can con'cat'enate them back together.... but you have a definite
>point....
dd and cat are your friends.
Matthew Skala
>Oh, sorry. *That* zip is, to the best of my knowledge, totally
>trustworthy...
As long as you don't trust the "password scrambling" feature to keep your
secrets, that is.
--
"Let me lose so beautifully http://www.islandnet.com/~mskala/
Let me lick the dew from the money tree Matthew Skala
Have the moms of the world all care about me Ansuz BBS
At suppertime" - Odds (250) 472-3169