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THE POPULATION OF MUSLIMS
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BV BV
Aug 29, 2013, 8:01:35 AM8/29/13
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THE POPULATION OF MUSLIMS
Islam today is a global religion. It is no longer confined to Muslim majority countries such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Indonesia. Small but significant communities exist across Europe, the Americas and Australasia. For some time Muslims have been an invisible presence in the western world but one decade into the 21st century Muslims are no longer curiosities. They are as much at home in London Paris or Chicago as they are in Istanbul, Damascus and Jakarta.
In 2011 Muslims in the West also no longer exist in immigrant communities but are second, third and fourth generation citizens participating in professional and civic life. Islam is said to be the fastest growing religion in the United States. It is estimated that more than 1 million Americans have converted to Islam. In recent years due to an Islamic revival, believing and practicing Muslims have established a visible presence not only in Islamic societies but also in the West.
What do the latest data and statistics tell us about the number of Muslims in the world. Where do they live? How many are born into the Muslim faith and how many choose to convert to Islam? The majority of the following statistics and data come from the Pew Research Centre.
According to the Pew[1] Islam is growing about 2.9% per year. This is faster than the total world population which increases about 2.3% annually. The world’s Muslim population is expected to increase by about 35% in the next 20 years. In mid 2010 the Pew forum estimated that there were 1.57 billion Muslims in the world. This represents 22% of the world’s population. Islam is the second largest religion in the world, beaten only by Christianity which represents 33% of the world’s population with a little over 2 billion adherents.
The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life stated that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. Driven by immigration and high birth rates, the number of Muslims on the continent has tripled in the last 30 years. Most demographers forecast a similar or even higher rate of growth in the coming decades.
If current trends continue 79 countries will have a million or more Muslim inhabitants in 2030, up from 72 countries in 2011. The seven new countries are expected to be Belgium, Canada, Congo, Djibouti, Guinea Bissau, Netherlands and Togo. About 60% of the world’s Muslims will continue to live in the Asia-Pacific region, while about 20% will live in the Middle East and North Africa, as is the case in 2010. One of the biggest changes expected is that Pakistan will almost certainly surpass Indonesia as the country with the single largest Muslim population. [2]
In 2011 statistics tell us that 74.1% of the world’s Muslims live in the 49 countries in which Muslims make up a majority of the population. More than a fifth of all Muslims (23.3%) live in non-Muslim-majority countries in the developing world. These minority Muslim populations are often quite large. India, for example, has the third-largest population of Muslims worldwide. China has more Muslims than Syria, while Russia is home to more Muslims than Jordan and Libya combined. [3] About 3% of the world’s Muslims live in more-developed regions, such as Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand and Japan. [4]
In the United States, the population projections show the number of Muslims more than doubling over the next two decades, rising from 2.6 million in 2010 to 6.2 million in 2030. The number of Muslims in Canada is expected to nearly triple in the next 20 years, from about 940,000 in 2010 to nearly 2.7 million in 2030. Muslims are expected to make up 6.6% of Canada’s total population in 2030, up from 2.8% today. Argentina is expected to have the third-largest Muslim population in the Americas, after the U.S. and Canada. Argentina, with about 1 million Muslims in 2010, is now in second place, behind the U.S.
In Europe as a whole, the Muslim share of the population is expected to grow by nearly one-third over the next 20 years, rising from 6% of the region’s inhabitants in 2010 to 8% in 2030. In absolute numbers, Europe’s Muslim population is projected to grow from 44.1 million in 2010 to 58.2 million in 2030. Nearly three-in-ten people living in the Asia-Pacific region in 2030 (27.3%) will be Muslim, up from about a quarter in 2010 (24.8%) and roughly a fifth in 1990 (21.6%). Muslims make up only about 2% of the population in China, but because the country is so populous, its Muslim population is expected to be the 19th largest in the world in 2030.
The growth rates of religions are usually due to conversions, higher birth and fertility rates and in many countries religions grow because of immigration. While the global Muslim population is expected to grow at a faster rate than the non-Muslim population, the Muslim population nevertheless is expected to grow at a slower pace in the next two decades than it did in the previous two decades.
Finding statistics and data about the number of people converting to Islam from other religions or atheism can be difficult. This is usually not a question asked by government authorities or research centers. In the next article we will discuss Muslim growth rates across the globe due to conversion and immigration.
Islam is a global religion, and as we learned in the previous article it is no longer confined to those countries we think of as Arabic or Asian. Close to 1.6 billion people across the globe identify as Muslim. Growth projections paint a picture of unprecedented growth, faster than the world population growth. 2011 statistics tell us that 74.1% of the world’s Muslims live in the 49 countries in which Muslims make up a majority of the population. More than a fifth of all Muslims (23.3%) live in non-Muslim-majority countries in the developing world, and about 3% of the world's Muslims live in more-developed regions, such as Europe, North America, and Australia. Where in fact do these 3% of Muslims come from?
Immigration and conversion account for a large percentage of Muslims living in predominantly western countries. Governments tend to keep strict immigration records however religious affiliation is not always recorded. Conversion statistics are notoriously unreliable but do reveal that the number of people converting to Islam is also experiencing a high growth rate. From across the globe and from various sources, both Muslim and non Muslim, government and nongovernmental, we have collected and collated statistical data in an effort to present a clear picture of how Muslim growth rates are proceeding into the second decade of the 21st century.
Let us begin in Australia. According to the 2006 census, 1.7% of the Australian population identified with Islam, this represents a population growth of 20.9% on the 2001 count – only Hinduism (55.1%) and “no religion” (27.5%) had bigger percentage jumps in the same five-year period. Where did this 20% growth rate come from? Apparently 36% were born in Australia, the majority claiming Lebanese, Turkish or broadly defined Arab ancestry. [5] Other immigration source countries include the predominantly Muslim Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh. However, approximately two-fifths of Australia’s Muslims live in Melbourne, and originate from over 70 countries. [6] There are no reliable statistics for conversions to Islam but mosques across Australia report that conversions take place frequently.
A report published in January 2011 by the Washington-based Pew Research centre[7] suggests Muslim numbers in Australia will increase by 80 percent, compared with 18 per cent for the population overall, growing from 399,000 at present to 714,000. This is due first to higher reproduction rates - Muslim families typically have four or more children, while other Australians have one or two - and, second, to migration from Muslim majority countries such as mentioned above.
The estimates of how many Muslims live in Europe vary wildly, depending on where the statistics are from. It is made even more difficult by the fact that they are the largest religious minority in Europe, and Islam is the fastest growing religion. As would be expected Europe’s Muslim population are ethnically and linguistically diverse and Muslim immigrants in Europe hail from a variety of Middle Eastern, African, and Asian countries. Converts are a tiny subset of the Muslim population, but their numbers are growing. Studies in Germany and France have each estimated around 4,000 conversions a year in Europe or their respective countries.
In Germany, the estimated 4,000 converts each year[8], can be compared with an annual average of 300 in the late 1990s, still, less than 1 percent of Germany’s 3.3 million Muslims are converts. A report by France’s domestic intelligence agency, published by Le Figaro, estimated last year[9] that there were 30,000 to 50,000 converts in France. The bulk of French Muslims are French citizens, and Islam is France’s second highest ranked religion.
Muslims are a minority in the United Kingdom, making up 2.7 per cent of the country's total population of some 60 million people. The number of converts to Islam is, as expected very difficult to either predict or find hard data about. One British newspaper however, the Independent, reports that the number of Britons converting to Islam has nearly doubled in the past decade, despite the fact that the UK has witnessed a rise in Islamophobia. This is according to a comprehensive study by inter-faith think tank Faith Matters.
Previous estimates have placed the number of Muslim converts in the UK at between 14,000 and 25,000, but this study suggests that the real figure could be as high as 100,000, with as many as 5,000 new conversions each year. By using data from the Scottish 2001 census - the only survey to ask respondents what their religion was at birth as well as at the time of the survey - researchers broke down what proportion of Muslim converts there were and then extrapolated the figures for Britain as a whole. [10]
In the United states of America, according to the Pew Research Centre, roughly two-thirds (65%) of adult Muslims living in the United States were born elsewhere, and 39% have come to the U.S. since 1990. A relatively large proportion of Muslim immigrants are from Arab countries, but many also come from Pakistan and other South Asian countries. Among native-born Muslims, slightly more than half are African American (20% of U.S. Muslims overall), many of whom are converts to Islam. [11]
As is the case in Europe and Australia, researchers say getting accurate estimates of converts to Islam is the most difficult challenge of all. Data on conversion from another religion to Islam is virtually non-existent, and what estimates exist are based on conversion rates to other faiths that may not apply to the Muslim experience.
Statistics about converts to Islam are much easier to find in Arabian Gulf countries where Islamic Cultural Centres keep meticulous records. For instance in Dubai, Huda Khalfan Al Kaabi, head of the New Muslims Section in the Islamic Affairs and Charitable Activities Department (IACAD) said, 1,365 people converted to Islam from January to June 2009 as compared to 878 over the same period in 2008. Observing that 3,763 expatriates from 72 countries had converted to Islam in an 18 month period, Al Kaabi said most of them were from the Philippines, Russia, China and India.
Globalisation has contributed to the spread of Islam around the world, either by immigration or conversion. Borders are more fluid than ever before and many people are able to make clear decisions about where they want to live and what religion they want to follow. With or without hard statistical data it is possible to see clearly that across the globe people are converting to Islam in large numbers. Islam is a global religion, no longer based on ethnicity or nationality.
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/4394/
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/4421/
thank you .
[1] The Pew Research Centre is an American think tank organization based in Washington, D.C. that provides information on issues, attitudes and trends shaping the United States and the world.
[2] http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1872/muslim-population-projections-worldwide-fast-growth
[3] according to Pew reports in 2009
[4] http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1872/muslim-population-projections-worldwide-fast-growth.
[5] Statistical snapshot on Muslim Australians from a Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC) fact sheet.
[6]http://museumvictoria.com.au/immigrationmuseum/discoverycentre/your-questions/muslim-australians/
[7] Pew Research Centre's Forum on Religion and Public Life, The Future of the Global Muslim Population: Projections for 2010-2030. Using figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
[8] A study financed by the Interior Ministry and carried out by the Soest-based Muslim institute Islam Archive Germany. (2004-5)
[9] http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7916/europe-fears-threat-from-its-converts-to-islam
[10] http://faith-
matters.org/resources/publicationsreports/218-report-on-converts-to-islam-in-the-uk-a-minority-within-a-minority
[11]http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-
americans.pdf
Islam today is a global religion. It is no longer confined to Muslim majority countries such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Indonesia. Small but significant communities exist across Europe, the Americas and Australasia. For some time Muslims have been an invisible presence in the western world but one decade into the 21st century Muslims are no longer curiosities. They are as much at home in London Paris or Chicago as they are in Istanbul, Damascus and Jakarta.
In 2011 Muslims in the West also no longer exist in immigrant communities but are second, third and fourth generation citizens participating in professional and civic life. Islam is said to be the fastest growing religion in the United States. It is estimated that more than 1 million Americans have converted to Islam. In recent years due to an Islamic revival, believing and practicing Muslims have established a visible presence not only in Islamic societies but also in the West.
What do the latest data and statistics tell us about the number of Muslims in the world. Where do they live? How many are born into the Muslim faith and how many choose to convert to Islam? The majority of the following statistics and data come from the Pew Research Centre.
According to the Pew[1] Islam is growing about 2.9% per year. This is faster than the total world population which increases about 2.3% annually. The world’s Muslim population is expected to increase by about 35% in the next 20 years. In mid 2010 the Pew forum estimated that there were 1.57 billion Muslims in the world. This represents 22% of the world’s population. Islam is the second largest religion in the world, beaten only by Christianity which represents 33% of the world’s population with a little over 2 billion adherents.
The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life stated that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. Driven by immigration and high birth rates, the number of Muslims on the continent has tripled in the last 30 years. Most demographers forecast a similar or even higher rate of growth in the coming decades.
If current trends continue 79 countries will have a million or more Muslim inhabitants in 2030, up from 72 countries in 2011. The seven new countries are expected to be Belgium, Canada, Congo, Djibouti, Guinea Bissau, Netherlands and Togo. About 60% of the world’s Muslims will continue to live in the Asia-Pacific region, while about 20% will live in the Middle East and North Africa, as is the case in 2010. One of the biggest changes expected is that Pakistan will almost certainly surpass Indonesia as the country with the single largest Muslim population. [2]
In 2011 statistics tell us that 74.1% of the world’s Muslims live in the 49 countries in which Muslims make up a majority of the population. More than a fifth of all Muslims (23.3%) live in non-Muslim-majority countries in the developing world. These minority Muslim populations are often quite large. India, for example, has the third-largest population of Muslims worldwide. China has more Muslims than Syria, while Russia is home to more Muslims than Jordan and Libya combined. [3] About 3% of the world’s Muslims live in more-developed regions, such as Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand and Japan. [4]
In the United States, the population projections show the number of Muslims more than doubling over the next two decades, rising from 2.6 million in 2010 to 6.2 million in 2030. The number of Muslims in Canada is expected to nearly triple in the next 20 years, from about 940,000 in 2010 to nearly 2.7 million in 2030. Muslims are expected to make up 6.6% of Canada’s total population in 2030, up from 2.8% today. Argentina is expected to have the third-largest Muslim population in the Americas, after the U.S. and Canada. Argentina, with about 1 million Muslims in 2010, is now in second place, behind the U.S.
In Europe as a whole, the Muslim share of the population is expected to grow by nearly one-third over the next 20 years, rising from 6% of the region’s inhabitants in 2010 to 8% in 2030. In absolute numbers, Europe’s Muslim population is projected to grow from 44.1 million in 2010 to 58.2 million in 2030. Nearly three-in-ten people living in the Asia-Pacific region in 2030 (27.3%) will be Muslim, up from about a quarter in 2010 (24.8%) and roughly a fifth in 1990 (21.6%). Muslims make up only about 2% of the population in China, but because the country is so populous, its Muslim population is expected to be the 19th largest in the world in 2030.
The growth rates of religions are usually due to conversions, higher birth and fertility rates and in many countries religions grow because of immigration. While the global Muslim population is expected to grow at a faster rate than the non-Muslim population, the Muslim population nevertheless is expected to grow at a slower pace in the next two decades than it did in the previous two decades.
Finding statistics and data about the number of people converting to Islam from other religions or atheism can be difficult. This is usually not a question asked by government authorities or research centers. In the next article we will discuss Muslim growth rates across the globe due to conversion and immigration.
Islam is a global religion, and as we learned in the previous article it is no longer confined to those countries we think of as Arabic or Asian. Close to 1.6 billion people across the globe identify as Muslim. Growth projections paint a picture of unprecedented growth, faster than the world population growth. 2011 statistics tell us that 74.1% of the world’s Muslims live in the 49 countries in which Muslims make up a majority of the population. More than a fifth of all Muslims (23.3%) live in non-Muslim-majority countries in the developing world, and about 3% of the world's Muslims live in more-developed regions, such as Europe, North America, and Australia. Where in fact do these 3% of Muslims come from?
Immigration and conversion account for a large percentage of Muslims living in predominantly western countries. Governments tend to keep strict immigration records however religious affiliation is not always recorded. Conversion statistics are notoriously unreliable but do reveal that the number of people converting to Islam is also experiencing a high growth rate. From across the globe and from various sources, both Muslim and non Muslim, government and nongovernmental, we have collected and collated statistical data in an effort to present a clear picture of how Muslim growth rates are proceeding into the second decade of the 21st century.
Let us begin in Australia. According to the 2006 census, 1.7% of the Australian population identified with Islam, this represents a population growth of 20.9% on the 2001 count – only Hinduism (55.1%) and “no religion” (27.5%) had bigger percentage jumps in the same five-year period. Where did this 20% growth rate come from? Apparently 36% were born in Australia, the majority claiming Lebanese, Turkish or broadly defined Arab ancestry. [5] Other immigration source countries include the predominantly Muslim Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh. However, approximately two-fifths of Australia’s Muslims live in Melbourne, and originate from over 70 countries. [6] There are no reliable statistics for conversions to Islam but mosques across Australia report that conversions take place frequently.
A report published in January 2011 by the Washington-based Pew Research centre[7] suggests Muslim numbers in Australia will increase by 80 percent, compared with 18 per cent for the population overall, growing from 399,000 at present to 714,000. This is due first to higher reproduction rates - Muslim families typically have four or more children, while other Australians have one or two - and, second, to migration from Muslim majority countries such as mentioned above.
The estimates of how many Muslims live in Europe vary wildly, depending on where the statistics are from. It is made even more difficult by the fact that they are the largest religious minority in Europe, and Islam is the fastest growing religion. As would be expected Europe’s Muslim population are ethnically and linguistically diverse and Muslim immigrants in Europe hail from a variety of Middle Eastern, African, and Asian countries. Converts are a tiny subset of the Muslim population, but their numbers are growing. Studies in Germany and France have each estimated around 4,000 conversions a year in Europe or their respective countries.
In Germany, the estimated 4,000 converts each year[8], can be compared with an annual average of 300 in the late 1990s, still, less than 1 percent of Germany’s 3.3 million Muslims are converts. A report by France’s domestic intelligence agency, published by Le Figaro, estimated last year[9] that there were 30,000 to 50,000 converts in France. The bulk of French Muslims are French citizens, and Islam is France’s second highest ranked religion.
Muslims are a minority in the United Kingdom, making up 2.7 per cent of the country's total population of some 60 million people. The number of converts to Islam is, as expected very difficult to either predict or find hard data about. One British newspaper however, the Independent, reports that the number of Britons converting to Islam has nearly doubled in the past decade, despite the fact that the UK has witnessed a rise in Islamophobia. This is according to a comprehensive study by inter-faith think tank Faith Matters.
Previous estimates have placed the number of Muslim converts in the UK at between 14,000 and 25,000, but this study suggests that the real figure could be as high as 100,000, with as many as 5,000 new conversions each year. By using data from the Scottish 2001 census - the only survey to ask respondents what their religion was at birth as well as at the time of the survey - researchers broke down what proportion of Muslim converts there were and then extrapolated the figures for Britain as a whole. [10]
In the United states of America, according to the Pew Research Centre, roughly two-thirds (65%) of adult Muslims living in the United States were born elsewhere, and 39% have come to the U.S. since 1990. A relatively large proportion of Muslim immigrants are from Arab countries, but many also come from Pakistan and other South Asian countries. Among native-born Muslims, slightly more than half are African American (20% of U.S. Muslims overall), many of whom are converts to Islam. [11]
As is the case in Europe and Australia, researchers say getting accurate estimates of converts to Islam is the most difficult challenge of all. Data on conversion from another religion to Islam is virtually non-existent, and what estimates exist are based on conversion rates to other faiths that may not apply to the Muslim experience.
Statistics about converts to Islam are much easier to find in Arabian Gulf countries where Islamic Cultural Centres keep meticulous records. For instance in Dubai, Huda Khalfan Al Kaabi, head of the New Muslims Section in the Islamic Affairs and Charitable Activities Department (IACAD) said, 1,365 people converted to Islam from January to June 2009 as compared to 878 over the same period in 2008. Observing that 3,763 expatriates from 72 countries had converted to Islam in an 18 month period, Al Kaabi said most of them were from the Philippines, Russia, China and India.
Globalisation has contributed to the spread of Islam around the world, either by immigration or conversion. Borders are more fluid than ever before and many people are able to make clear decisions about where they want to live and what religion they want to follow. With or without hard statistical data it is possible to see clearly that across the globe people are converting to Islam in large numbers. Islam is a global religion, no longer based on ethnicity or nationality.
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/4394/
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/4421/
thank you .
[1] The Pew Research Centre is an American think tank organization based in Washington, D.C. that provides information on issues, attitudes and trends shaping the United States and the world.
[2] http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1872/muslim-population-projections-worldwide-fast-growth
[3] according to Pew reports in 2009
[4] http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1872/muslim-population-projections-worldwide-fast-growth.
[5] Statistical snapshot on Muslim Australians from a Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC) fact sheet.
[6]http://museumvictoria.com.au/immigrationmuseum/discoverycentre/your-questions/muslim-australians/
[7] Pew Research Centre's Forum on Religion and Public Life, The Future of the Global Muslim Population: Projections for 2010-2030. Using figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
[8] A study financed by the Interior Ministry and carried out by the Soest-based Muslim institute Islam Archive Germany. (2004-5)
[9] http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7916/europe-fears-threat-from-its-converts-to-islam
[10] http://faith-
matters.org/resources/publicationsreports/218-report-on-converts-to-islam-in-the-uk-a-minority-within-a-minority
[11]http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-
americans.pdf
RuneMaster
Aug 29, 2013, 11:39:12 AM8/29/13
to
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:01:35 +0100, BV BV <bv8b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> THE POPULATION OF MUSLIMS
>
>
<cut , cut and cut again>
.....and you will be killed (beheaded, stoned to death or similar modern,
up-to-date methods) if, once you converted, you ever decided to
un-convert. Even the Scientologists don't go THAT far.
And don't try and claim it is only some "fundaMENTALists" who do that -
-reports from Saudi Arabia, Indonesia/Malaysia etc all reveal this
barbaric mindset.
But wait.......
What is wrong with these people???
--
Veistu hve rísta skal? Veistu hve ráða skal?
Veistu hve fáa skal? Veistu hve freista skal?
Veistu hve biðja skal? Veistu hve blóta skal?
Veistu hve senda skal? Veistu hve sóa skal?
Hávamál, Stanza 144
> THE POPULATION OF MUSLIMS
>
>
<cut , cut and cut again>
.....and you will be killed (beheaded, stoned to death or similar modern,
up-to-date methods) if, once you converted, you ever decided to
un-convert. Even the Scientologists don't go THAT far.
And don't try and claim it is only some "fundaMENTALists" who do that -
-reports from Saudi Arabia, Indonesia/Malaysia etc all reveal this
barbaric mindset.
But wait.......
What is wrong with these people???
--
Veistu hve rísta skal? Veistu hve ráða skal?
Veistu hve fáa skal? Veistu hve freista skal?
Veistu hve biðja skal? Veistu hve blóta skal?
Veistu hve senda skal? Veistu hve sóa skal?
Hávamál, Stanza 144
larry
Aug 29, 2013, 6:36:14 PM8/29/13
to
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 16:39:12 +0100, RuneMaster wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:01:35 +0100, BV BV <bv8b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> THE POPULATION OF MUSLIMS
>>
>>
> <cut , cut and cut again>
>
> .....and you will be killed (beheaded, stoned to death or similar
> modern,
> up-to-date methods) if, once you converted, you ever decided to
> un-convert. Even the Scientologists don't go THAT far.
>
> And don't try and claim it is only some "fundaMENTALists" who do that -
> -reports from Saudi Arabia, Indonesia/Malaysia etc all reveal this
> barbaric mindset.
>
> But wait.......
>
> What is wrong with these people???
What? The Beaver is still in business? Leave it to the Beaver :=_
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:01:35 +0100, BV BV <bv8b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> THE POPULATION OF MUSLIMS
>>
>>
> <cut , cut and cut again>
>
> .....and you will be killed (beheaded, stoned to death or similar
> modern,
> up-to-date methods) if, once you converted, you ever decided to
> un-convert. Even the Scientologists don't go THAT far.
>
> And don't try and claim it is only some "fundaMENTALists" who do that -
> -reports from Saudi Arabia, Indonesia/Malaysia etc all reveal this
> barbaric mindset.
>
> But wait.......
>
> What is wrong with these people???
Any state where the official punishment of a sixteen-year-old girl for
refusing to recant the Bahai Faith is to have the bones of the soles of
her feet broken by beating by bamboo rods has no claim on being civilized.
GaryN
Aug 30, 2013, 7:36:16 PM8/30/13
to
larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:kvoicu$q6p$1...@dont-email.me:
It's ethnic.
Apparently that excuses a lot of stuff that the wogs do in my country so
it must be OK in the country where ethnics come from.
Since I come from a country whose ethnic traditions include going abroad
and shooting wogs, can I apply my ethnic traditions in furrin countries?
Actually, Caruthers, can I apply them in my country?
Oh damn, I'm David Cameron. Not allowed to shoot wogs with my mate
Winniebush Obamaladen.
Meh - bomb France. Always a good default for England.
gary
--
"Of all tyrannies, one exercised for the good of its victims may be the
most oppressive.
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral
busybodies."
C.S Lewis
news:kvoicu$q6p$1...@dont-email.me:
Apparently that excuses a lot of stuff that the wogs do in my country so
it must be OK in the country where ethnics come from.
Since I come from a country whose ethnic traditions include going abroad
and shooting wogs, can I apply my ethnic traditions in furrin countries?
Actually, Caruthers, can I apply them in my country?
Oh damn, I'm David Cameron. Not allowed to shoot wogs with my mate
Winniebush Obamaladen.
Meh - bomb France. Always a good default for England.
gary
--
"Of all tyrannies, one exercised for the good of its victims may be the
most oppressive.
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral
busybodies."
C.S Lewis
larry
Aug 31, 2013, 7:13:46 AM8/31/13
to
feckless ... seem to remember he whispered the same sweet nothings in the
ears of the Jews and then the different sects of Christianity? Isn't this
grounds for a breach of promise suit?
Free Lunch
Aug 31, 2013, 10:13:12 AM8/31/13
to
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 11:13:46 +0000 (UTC), larry
<sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
Wasn't that Arthur Balfour?
<sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
larry
Aug 31, 2013, 10:28:48 AM8/31/13
to
Robert Carnegie
Aug 31, 2013, 10:51:34 AM8/31/13
to
On Thursday, 29 August 2013 23:36:14 UTC+1, larry wrote:
> Any state where the official punishment of a sixteen-year-old girl for
> refusing to recant the Bahai Faith is to have the bones of the soles of
> her feet broken by beating by bamboo rods has no claim on being civilized.
This Bahai must be strong stuff, I guess. Anyway, I'll raise you
> Any state where the official punishment of a sixteen-year-old girl for
> refusing to recant the Bahai Faith is to have the bones of the soles of
> her feet broken by beating by bamboo rods has no claim on being civilized.
"hanged a Quaker woman".
Free Lunch
Aug 31, 2013, 10:56:02 AM8/31/13
to
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 14:28:48 +0000 (UTC), larry
He seems to have been the one who started the habit of handing out old
Ottoman lands to two or three different groups at the same time.
Ottoman lands to two or three different groups at the same time.
Nigel Stapley
Aug 31, 2013, 11:39:21 AM8/31/13
to
(Sorry...
...no, I'm not...)
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
www.thejudge.me.uk
<reply-to will bounce>
Walter Bushell
Aug 31, 2013, 3:07:38 PM8/31/13
to
In article <H5idnXhDgrm2k7_P...@brightview.co.uk>,
dozens of times and IIUC the entire down payment is commission for the
seller. Now you know why they can give away cases of pineapples, free
tickets to local attractions just for attending said events and most
states make it illegal to sell to residents of the state.
--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Wasn't that Arthur Balfour?
> >>
> >> of the Balfour Declaration???
> >
> > He seems to have been the one who started the habit of handing out old
> > Ottoman lands to two or three different groups at the same time.
> >
>
> Then he moved on to Egypt and invented pyramid selling...
>
> (Sorry...
>
> ...no, I'm not...)
He should have gone into time shares, you can sell the same apartment
> >>>
> >>> Wasn't that Arthur Balfour?
> >>
> >> of the Balfour Declaration???
> >
> > He seems to have been the one who started the habit of handing out old
> > Ottoman lands to two or three different groups at the same time.
> >
>
> Then he moved on to Egypt and invented pyramid selling...
>
> (Sorry...
>
> ...no, I'm not...)
dozens of times and IIUC the entire down payment is commission for the
seller. Now you know why they can give away cases of pineapples, free
tickets to local attractions just for attending said events and most
states make it illegal to sell to residents of the state.
--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
ppint. at pplay
Aug 31, 2013, 6:55:24 PM8/31/13
to
- hi; in article, <su04291am7qjp79i8...@4ax.com>,
lu...@nofreelunch.us "Free Lunch" elaborated:
> <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
- and, air, the relevant phrase in the balfour declaration was
the statement that his majesty's government viewed with favour
the prospect of the establishment within palestine of a national
home for the jews; and remember, it was by no means obvious at
that time that this would turn out to be a significantly racist
or an almost exclusively jewish state, as opposed to a country
created from the fragmenting ottoman empire containing a mixed
population that would include some fraction of a largely unknown
number of jews disatisfied with their lives in europe, unwanted
and unvalued as they had been for centuries in western europe
(when not actually discriminated against, or slaughtered, by the
unwashed, godly christians).
- tagging palestine as the "twice-promised land" was an inspired
piece of smart-aleck p.r; but perhaps not entirely accurate.
- love, ppint.
pp.s. - arab nationalism, lawrence & the arab revolt
can be left for another day^W month, i hope
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"Incipient Doldrums."
- roger thomas, 19/3/97 (3/19/97 for merkins)
lu...@nofreelunch.us "Free Lunch" elaborated:
> <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
>>>>Nope They are right. God told them so. This God guy must be some
>>>>feckless ... seem to remember he whispered the same sweet nothings in
>>>>the ears of the Jews and then the different sects of Christianity? Isn't
>>>>this grounds for a breach of promise suit?
>>>Wasn't that Arthur Balfour?
>>of the Balfour Declaration???
>
>He seems to have been the one who started the habit of handing out old
>Ottoman lands to two or three different groups at the same time.
- lands still part of the ottoman empire at the time, shirley?
>>>>feckless ... seem to remember he whispered the same sweet nothings in
>>>>the ears of the Jews and then the different sects of Christianity? Isn't
>>>>this grounds for a breach of promise suit?
>>>Wasn't that Arthur Balfour?
>>of the Balfour Declaration???
>
>He seems to have been the one who started the habit of handing out old
>Ottoman lands to two or three different groups at the same time.
- and, air, the relevant phrase in the balfour declaration was
the statement that his majesty's government viewed with favour
the prospect of the establishment within palestine of a national
home for the jews; and remember, it was by no means obvious at
that time that this would turn out to be a significantly racist
or an almost exclusively jewish state, as opposed to a country
created from the fragmenting ottoman empire containing a mixed
population that would include some fraction of a largely unknown
number of jews disatisfied with their lives in europe, unwanted
and unvalued as they had been for centuries in western europe
(when not actually discriminated against, or slaughtered, by the
unwashed, godly christians).
- tagging palestine as the "twice-promised land" was an inspired
piece of smart-aleck p.r; but perhaps not entirely accurate.
- love, ppint.
pp.s. - arab nationalism, lawrence & the arab revolt
can be left for another day^W month, i hope
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"Incipient Doldrums."
- roger thomas, 19/3/97 (3/19/97 for merkins)
larry
Sep 1, 2013, 9:49:16 AM9/1/13
to
topic and can change their interpretation of their Writings, unlike
either the members of the JWs, or the Later Day Saints, that I've met.
The Bahaiis in Iran may be different but I think that the theocracy in
Iran is threatened by any opinion they have not sanctioned. Christians
and Jews who don't proselytize are protected under the Qrn but everyone
else shall submit or be punished.
Anybody know if the Buddha statue destroyers in Afghanistan were Sunnis
or Shi'as?
larry
Sep 1, 2013, 10:00:35 AM9/1/13
to
or horror at the Holocast.) The Zionist literature at the time was clear
- the trifling few Arabs would be bought out necessary (if they had
papers proving title,) but would be removed, their villages demolished to
prevent their return and afforested to obscure that they were ever there .
> - tagging palestine as the "twice-promised land" was an inspired
piece
> of smart-aleck p.r; but perhaps not entirely accurate.
>
and Balfor making separate promises to the Jews and the Arabs for the
same land in exchange for war support.
Lesley Weston
Sep 1, 2013, 1:33:41 PM9/1/13
to
my lab. She explained that her entire family had had to leave Iran when
she, the eldest child of many, became old enough for university, though
her father stayed behind to run his business and so support the family;
he joined them later when it was no longer safe for him to stay in Iran,
and I've no idea what they all lived on then.
No member of the B'Hais can attend university in Iran. This was the
last straw on top of all the other persecutions, so they all fled and
were accepted into Canada [1], where she and her siblings set about
learning English to the level required for UBC entrance. She did that
all right, but at the expense of her other studies; she wasn't doing too
well.
I liked her, apart from her proselytising. This wasn't really her
fault, since they are required to spread the word and she seemed to be
deeply devout. Persecution has that effect: Another work-study student
was the daughter of an Iranian B'Hai father and a Phillipina Catholic
mother who had converted to B'Hai, brought up in Canada. She too was
devout up to a point [2], but having had a happy childhood she saw no
need to preach at us, which made her far more pleasant to have around.
>
> Anybody know if the Buddha statue destroyers in Afghanistan were Sunnis
> or Shi'as?
Google says Sunni.
> Anybody know if the Buddha statue destroyers in Afghanistan were Sunnis
> or Shi'as?
>
[1] Our laws concerning refugees were still working then.
[2] She did her first Ramadan fast while in my lab, having then reached
the age where you can if you want but you don't have to. She said it
wasn't much fun but not as hard as she had expected, and she was very
pleased with herself for sticking to it.
Lesley.
--
This address is real, but to reach me use leswes att shaw dott ca
Walter Bushell
Sep 1, 2013, 4:12:05 PM9/1/13
to
In article <kvvtpm$c25$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
Much harder in a non Muslim society, as much as I have heard, more or
less nothing much gets done in a Muslim society during Ramadan.
less nothing much gets done in a Muslim society during Ramadan.
Message has been deleted
Nigel Stapley
Sep 1, 2013, 5:00:31 PM9/1/13
to
On 01/09/2013 21:53, A.Reader wrote:
>
> Reading Shabtai Teveth's biography of Ben Gurion was a real
> eye-opener and no mistake. Talk about a revolving psychopath
^^^^^^^^^
Did he move in the wrong circles, then?
>
> Reading Shabtai Teveth's biography of Ben Gurion was a real
> eye-opener and no mistake. Talk about a revolving psychopath
^^^^^^^^^
Did he move in the wrong circles, then?
Walter Bushell
Sep 1, 2013, 5:39:19 PM9/1/13
to
In article <LpydnVnyg75tN77P...@brightview.co.uk>,
>
> Did he move in the wrong circles, then?
Reminds me of the "Wizard of Id" when the messenger comes to the King
saying, "The peasants are revolting." and the King replies "Yes, I
know, what's new?".
Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
> On 01/09/2013 21:53, A.Reader wrote:
>
> >
> > Reading Shabtai Teveth's biography of Ben Gurion was a real
> > eye-opener and no mistake. Talk about a revolving psychopath
^^^^^^^^^
Many psychopaths are associated with revolutions.
> On 01/09/2013 21:53, A.Reader wrote:
>
> >
> > Reading Shabtai Teveth's biography of Ben Gurion was a real
> > eye-opener and no mistake. Talk about a revolving psychopath
^^^^^^^^^
>
> Did he move in the wrong circles, then?
saying, "The peasants are revolting." and the King replies "Yes, I
know, what's new?".
larry
Sep 1, 2013, 5:46:03 PM9/1/13
to
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 16:53:47 -0400, A.Reader wrote:
> oy!
Typical Father of the Country AFAICT. Barring Botswana, I can't think of
one I'd want to marry my daughter.
> Reading Shabtai Teveth's biography of Ben Gurion was a real eye-opener
> and no mistake. Talk about a revolving psychopath,
> oy!
Typical Father of the Country AFAICT. Barring Botswana, I can't think of
one I'd want to marry my daughter.
larry
Sep 1, 2013, 5:56:02 PM9/1/13
to
Muslim calendar - their 19(?) day fast occurs at a different time of the
year than the Muslim Ramadan fast and always at the same time in our
calendar. (A 'fast' means one is NPO during the day, in either case.)
larry
Sep 1, 2013, 6:06:38 PM9/1/13
to
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:33:41 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
> On 09-01-13 6:49 AM, larry wrote:
>> Anybody know if the Buddha statue destroyers in Afghanistan were Sunnis
>> or Shi'as?
>
> Google says Sunni.
>
>
> Lesley.
> On 09-01-13 6:49 AM, larry wrote:
>> Anybody know if the Buddha statue destroyers in Afghanistan were Sunnis
>> or Shi'as?
>
> Google says Sunni.
>
>
But Iran's Muslims are Shias ( http://www.pewforum.org/2009/10/07/mapping-
the-global-muslim-population/ ) . I dunno - too complex for my head.
GaryN
Sep 1, 2013, 7:36:42 PM9/1/13
to
larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:l00dpe$6oi$3...@dont-email.me:
Does it matter? The SO is a Buddhist - to her it was Muslims who
destroyed them. The exact faction matters not a jot.
OTOH the Buddhists in Burma kicking the shit out of Muslims are not her
sort of Buddhists. Apparently that is important, although probably not
to the Muslims being kicked.
I'll stick with atheism because it means I can hold every flavour of
every religion in equal, pitying, contempt whilst respecting their right
to believe whatever they wish[1].
gary
[1] Except the ones who want to kill me for not believing what they do -
I admit to having a problem with that.
news:l00dpe$6oi$3...@dont-email.me:
destroyed them. The exact faction matters not a jot.
OTOH the Buddhists in Burma kicking the shit out of Muslims are not her
sort of Buddhists. Apparently that is important, although probably not
to the Muslims being kicked.
I'll stick with atheism because it means I can hold every flavour of
every religion in equal, pitying, contempt whilst respecting their right
to believe whatever they wish[1].
gary
[1] Except the ones who want to kill me for not believing what they do -
I admit to having a problem with that.
larry
Sep 1, 2013, 7:42:59 PM9/1/13
to
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 18:36:42 -0500, GaryN wrote:
> I'll stick with atheism because it means I can hold every flavour of
> every religion in equal, pitying, contempt whilst respecting their right
> to believe whatever they wish[1].
>
> gary
>
> [1] Except the ones who want to kill me for not believing what they do -
> I admit to having a problem with that.
Does rather get up the nose, doesn't it?
> I'll stick with atheism because it means I can hold every flavour of
> every religion in equal, pitying, contempt whilst respecting their right
> to believe whatever they wish[1].
>
> gary
>
> [1] Except the ones who want to kill me for not believing what they do -
> I admit to having a problem with that.
Free Lunch
Sep 1, 2013, 7:45:19 PM9/1/13
to
On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 21:56:02 +0000 (UTC), larry
<sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
Bahai is syncretist. Presumably the inventor, er, prophet thought that
it made more sense to use a calendar that is basically universal for a
religion with aspirations of universality. Even the modern Jewish
calendar manages to handle the solar year.
<sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
it made more sense to use a calendar that is basically universal for a
religion with aspirations of universality. Even the modern Jewish
calendar manages to handle the solar year.
Walter Bushell
Sep 1, 2013, 9:39:50 PM9/1/13
to
In article <q1k7295udsamnbdgl...@4ax.com>,
But Islam was *supposed* to be a universal religion. Judaism is
perhaps the only big religion that doesn't aspire to that, except
everyone not Jewish should follow the Noahide laws.
perhaps the only big religion that doesn't aspire to that, except
everyone not Jewish should follow the Noahide laws.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Sep 2, 2013, 1:09:14 AM9/2/13
to
On 2013-09-01 21:39:50 -0400, Walter Bushell said:
> But Islam was *supposed* to be a universal religion. Judaism is
> perhaps the only big religion that doesn't aspire to that, except
> everyone not Jewish should follow the Noahide laws.
Hinduism doesn't generally proselytize, either. (There are exceptions
> But Islam was *supposed* to be a universal religion. Judaism is
> perhaps the only big religion that doesn't aspire to that, except
> everyone not Jewish should follow the Noahide laws.
like the Hare Krishnas, but they are to mainstream Hinduism roughly
what Seventh-Day Adventists are to Christianity.)
Neither does Shinto, come to think of it, and proselytizing by Daoists
and Confucians is pretty trivial.
--
I'm serializing a new Ethshar novel!
The fifth chapter is online at:
http://www.ethshar.com/ishtascompanion05.html
Lesley Weston
Sep 2, 2013, 11:13:10 AM9/2/13
to
Ramadan, and there was no point in expecting them to produce anything
useful in the lab or in writing then either. The devout ones, anyway.
There are plenty of Muslims who take religion the way most Christians
do, though there was one who fasted and also, just for that one month,
avoided drinking alcohol and having sex with his various girlfriends,
even the unmarried ones.
Lesley Weston
Sep 2, 2013, 11:18:06 AM9/2/13
to
On 09-01-13 10:09 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On 2013-09-01 21:39:50 -0400, Walter Bushell said:
>
>> But Islam was *supposed* to be a universal religion. Judaism is
>> perhaps the only big religion that doesn't aspire to that, except
>> everyone not Jewish should follow the Noahide laws.
In Israel it's illegal to try to convert anyone from any religion (or
> On 2013-09-01 21:39:50 -0400, Walter Bushell said:
>
>> But Islam was *supposed* to be a universal religion. Judaism is
>> perhaps the only big religion that doesn't aspire to that, except
>> everyone not Jewish should follow the Noahide laws.
none) to any other religion (or none). We could use that law in the rest
of the world.
>
> Hinduism doesn't generally proselytize, either. (There are exceptions
> like the Hare Krishnas, but they are to mainstream Hinduism roughly what
> Seventh-Day Adventists are to Christianity.)
>
> Neither does Shinto, come to think of it, and proselytizing by Daoists
> and Confucians is pretty trivial.
>
Buddhists are the least likely to proselytise, but then that's not
> Hinduism doesn't generally proselytize, either. (There are exceptions
> like the Hare Krishnas, but they are to mainstream Hinduism roughly what
> Seventh-Day Adventists are to Christianity.)
>
> Neither does Shinto, come to think of it, and proselytizing by Daoists
> and Confucians is pretty trivial.
>
really a religion.
Lesley Weston
Sep 2, 2013, 11:23:16 AM9/2/13
to
language. Northern Ireland comes to mind: Muslims don't have exclusive
rights to the "It's OK to kill people if they follow a different schism
from yours" code of ethics.
larry
Sep 2, 2013, 1:31:13 PM9/2/13
to
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 08:18:06 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
> In Israel it's illegal to try to convert anyone from any religion (or
> none) to any other religion (or none). We could use that law in the rest
> of the world.
>>
> Lesley.
> In Israel it's illegal to try to convert anyone from any religion (or
> none) to any other religion (or none). We could use that law in the rest
> of the world.
>>
The world HQ for the Bahaiis runs up a hill in Haifa but nobody who works
there has a permanent residence permit or citizenship.
larry
Sep 2, 2013, 1:56:20 PM9/2/13
to
Afghans don't have a majority language but Dari (Farsi sortof,) speakers
outnumber the Pashto and the Pashto speakers outnumber the rest. Both use
the Arabic alphabet (for the same cultural/religious reason that the
Russians use the Greek alphabet?) Thanks, that was a fun half-hour
googling.
Barney Google with the googley googely eyes.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Sep 2, 2013, 3:34:54 PM9/2/13
to
On 2013-09-02 13:56:20 -0400, larry said:
> Parse ... Iran has Farsi with Arabic being the theological language;
> Afghans don't have a majority language but Dari (Farsi sortof,) speakers
> outnumber the Pashto and the Pashto speakers outnumber the rest. Both use
> the Arabic alphabet (for the same cultural/religious reason that the
> Russians use the Greek alphabet?) Thanks, that was a fun half-hour
> googling.
Russians use Cyrillic (as modified by Lenin), not Greek. Cyrillic was
> Parse ... Iran has Farsi with Arabic being the theological language;
> Afghans don't have a majority language but Dari (Farsi sortof,) speakers
> outnumber the Pashto and the Pashto speakers outnumber the rest. Both use
> the Arabic alphabet (for the same cultural/religious reason that the
> Russians use the Greek alphabet?) Thanks, that was a fun half-hour
> googling.
invented by St. Cyril for writing Old Church Slavonic, and combines
pieces of the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew alphabets, as well as including
a few letters Cyril made up on his own.
Free Lunch
Sep 2, 2013, 3:43:56 PM9/2/13
to
On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 15:34:54 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
>On 2013-09-02 13:56:20 -0400, larry said:
>
>> Parse ... Iran has Farsi with Arabic being the theological language;
>> Afghans don't have a majority language but Dari (Farsi sortof,) speakers
>> outnumber the Pashto and the Pashto speakers outnumber the rest. Both use
>> the Arabic alphabet (for the same cultural/religious reason that the
>> Russians use the Greek alphabet?) Thanks, that was a fun half-hour
>> googling.
>
>Russians use Cyrillic (as modified by Lenin), not Greek. Cyrillic was
>invented by St. Cyril for writing Old Church Slavonic, and combines
>pieces of the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew alphabets, as well as including
>a few letters Cyril made up on his own.
I can see the Greek and the invented letters, but I don't really see
which of them are Latin or Hebrew unless the ones that look invented are
just very highly stylized versions of Hebrew or Latin.
Just because we can use Latin letters for, say C or P (S and R), does
not mean they came from the Latin, the Greek letters are barely
different from the Cyrillic.
As a kid I always wondered why the Soviets kept calling their country
CCCP.
wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
>On 2013-09-02 13:56:20 -0400, larry said:
>
>> Parse ... Iran has Farsi with Arabic being the theological language;
>> Afghans don't have a majority language but Dari (Farsi sortof,) speakers
>> outnumber the Pashto and the Pashto speakers outnumber the rest. Both use
>> the Arabic alphabet (for the same cultural/religious reason that the
>> Russians use the Greek alphabet?) Thanks, that was a fun half-hour
>> googling.
>
>Russians use Cyrillic (as modified by Lenin), not Greek. Cyrillic was
>invented by St. Cyril for writing Old Church Slavonic, and combines
>pieces of the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew alphabets, as well as including
>a few letters Cyril made up on his own.
which of them are Latin or Hebrew unless the ones that look invented are
just very highly stylized versions of Hebrew or Latin.
Just because we can use Latin letters for, say C or P (S and R), does
not mean they came from the Latin, the Greek letters are barely
different from the Cyrillic.
As a kid I always wondered why the Soviets kept calling their country
CCCP.
Jonathan Ellis
Sep 2, 2013, 4:39:54 PM9/2/13
to
"Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
news:req929lp6gsnhnf6a...@4ax.com...
> As a kid I always wondered why the Soviets kept calling their country
> CCCP.
People...
-- JLE
Message has been deleted
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Sep 2, 2013, 5:07:44 PM9/2/13
to
On 2013-09-02 16:43:32 -0400, A.Reader said:
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 15:34:54 -0400,
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 15:34:54 -0400,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2013-09-02 13:56:20 -0400, larry said:
>>
>>> Parse ... Iran has Farsi with Arabic being the theological language;
>>> Afghans don't have a majority language but Dari (Farsi sortof,) speakers
>>> outnumber the Pashto and the Pashto speakers outnumber the rest. Both use
>>> the Arabic alphabet (for the same cultural/religious reason that the
>>> Russians use the Greek alphabet?) Thanks, that was a fun half-hour
>>> googling.
>>
>> Russians use Cyrillic (as modified by Lenin), not Greek. Cyrillic was
>> invented by St. Cyril for writing Old Church Slavonic, and combines
>> pieces of the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew alphabets, as well as including
>> a few letters Cyril made up on his own.
>
> Kyril seems to have invented Glagolitic, not Kyrillic despite the
>
>> On 2013-09-02 13:56:20 -0400, larry said:
>>
>>> Parse ... Iran has Farsi with Arabic being the theological language;
>>> Afghans don't have a majority language but Dari (Farsi sortof,) speakers
>>> outnumber the Pashto and the Pashto speakers outnumber the rest. Both use
>>> the Arabic alphabet (for the same cultural/religious reason that the
>>> Russians use the Greek alphabet?) Thanks, that was a fun half-hour
>>> googling.
>>
>> Russians use Cyrillic (as modified by Lenin), not Greek. Cyrillic was
>> invented by St. Cyril for writing Old Church Slavonic, and combines
>> pieces of the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew alphabets, as well as including
>> a few letters Cyril made up on his own.
>
> name.
I hadn't heard that; interesting, if true.
> Glagolitic, like Cherokee, has all the earmarks of a
> glyph set invented by an overly creative person who really
> didn't know SFA about writing, reading, or how the human brain
> works.
>
> Kyrillic as we know it today, which I've never heard was modified
> by Lenin, seems to have been cobbled together out of Greek, a few
> of the less-awful Glagolitic chars for which Greek offered no
> help: sh, e-oborotnoe (flipped e), yu (highly modified), zh
> (highly modified), myagkij znak and tverdyj ditto; and a few DIYs
> (ya, yery, ts, ch). I suppose an argument could be made for the
> DIYs to have come from Glagolitic too, but it'd be hootingly
> speculative.
The Cyrillic letters for SH, CH, and TS are allegedly based (loosely, I
admit) on Hebrew, according to my Russian teachers.
I had thought a couple were supposed to be lifted from Latin, but I
must admit I can't point to any, so I'm willing to withdraw that claim.
Lenin edited the alphabet, removing three letters he didn't think
Russian needed. (Ukrainian kept at least two of them.)
GaryN
Sep 3, 2013, 7:17:54 AM9/3/13
to
"Jonathan Ellis" <jle3...@gmail.com> wrote in news:l02t3c$m1g$1
@speranza.aioe.org:
Cunts Corrupting Communist Priciples?
Particularly, but not limited to, Stalin. Why do so many "Father of his
people" types feel the need to kill so many of said people?
gary
@speranza.aioe.org:
Particularly, but not limited to, Stalin. Why do so many "Father of his
people" types feel the need to kill so many of said people?
gary
Lesley Weston
Sep 3, 2013, 10:39:30 AM9/3/13
to
one more schism, this time of Islam, and no threat to anybody.
Lesley Weston
Sep 3, 2013, 10:48:44 AM9/3/13
to
the lab were able to communicate quite comfortably with Afghans. Though
one Persian said it was like talking to an old-fashioned novel: Dari
uses archaic forms. One Afghan was fluent in Dari/Farsi, English and
Russian, because he did his medical training in Russia and then managed
to escape both horrible regimes and come to Canada.
Lesley Weston
Sep 3, 2013, 10:51:41 AM9/3/13
to
On 09-03-13 4:17 AM, GaryN wrote:
> "Jonathan Ellis" <jle3...@gmail.com> wrote in news:l02t3c$m1g$1
> @speranza.aioe.org:
>
>>
>> "Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
>> news:req929lp6gsnhnf6a...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> As a kid I always wondered why the Soviets kept calling their country
>>> CCCP.
>>
>> And there was I thinking it stood for Crazy Conspiracy of Communist
>> People...
>>
>> -- JLE
>
> Cunts Corrupting Communist Priciples?
>
> Particularly, but not limited to, Stalin. Why do so many "Father of his
> people" types feel the need to kill so many of said people?
It goes back to the Titans. Freud probably had something to say about it
> "Jonathan Ellis" <jle3...@gmail.com> wrote in news:l02t3c$m1g$1
> @speranza.aioe.org:
>
>>
>> "Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
>> news:req929lp6gsnhnf6a...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> As a kid I always wondered why the Soviets kept calling their country
>>> CCCP.
>>
>> And there was I thinking it stood for Crazy Conspiracy of Communist
>> People...
>>
>> -- JLE
>
> Cunts Corrupting Communist Priciples?
>
> Particularly, but not limited to, Stalin. Why do so many "Father of his
> people" types feel the need to kill so many of said people?
too, or at least the result that some of his patients feared their fathers.
Nigel Stapley
Sep 3, 2013, 11:31:57 AM9/3/13
to
<g, d & r>
ppint. at pplay
Sep 3, 2013, 4:28:06 PM9/3/13
to
- hi; in article, <kvvha3$8he$2...@dont-email.me>,
sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" asserted:
>It was not obvious to non-Zionists if they wished (for political reasons
>or horror at the Holocast.) The Zionist literature at the time was clear
>- the trifling few Arabs would be bought out necessary (if they had
>papers proving title,) but would be removed, their villages demolished to
>prevent their return and afforested to obscure that they were ever there .
- check your dates. the holocaust was an achievement of the
third reich - i.e. world war II.
the rise of zionism antedates the rise of the nazi party,
let alone the foundation of the third reich.
- check your presumptions. nowhere near all european jews
were zionists, and the devout wish, next year in jerusalem,
is no indicator of zionism, let alone of anti-arab feeling.
- check further presumptions. purchase of property from
its owners by agreement (and for cash) is generally agreed
to be legal, even in merkia, canadadada & the uk of gb&ni:
is there any reason to suppose it was not so in palestine,
whilst it was a part of the ottoman empire ? - after this?
- who rightly owns new york, or toronto - or eboracum/york/
jorvik/york, or waterford, or philadelphia...
- wherein lies title to land ?
- the answers to many of these questions are simple only to
people possessed of absolute truth, though it may not prove
beyond human wit to agree on some of them, given good will
and an openness to finding compromises based on equalising
disatisfaction all around.
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"decadence, n: the finest flowering of civilisation"
- yr hmbl srppnt., 8/72
sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" asserted:
>It was not obvious to non-Zionists if they wished (for political reasons
>or horror at the Holocast.) The Zionist literature at the time was clear
>- the trifling few Arabs would be bought out necessary (if they had
>papers proving title,) but would be removed, their villages demolished to
>prevent their return and afforested to obscure that they were ever there .
third reich - i.e. world war II.
the rise of zionism antedates the rise of the nazi party,
let alone the foundation of the third reich.
- check your presumptions. nowhere near all european jews
were zionists, and the devout wish, next year in jerusalem,
is no indicator of zionism, let alone of anti-arab feeling.
- check further presumptions. purchase of property from
its owners by agreement (and for cash) is generally agreed
to be legal, even in merkia, canadadada & the uk of gb&ni:
is there any reason to suppose it was not so in palestine,
whilst it was a part of the ottoman empire ? - after this?
- who rightly owns new york, or toronto - or eboracum/york/
jorvik/york, or waterford, or philadelphia...
- wherein lies title to land ?
- the answers to many of these questions are simple only to
people possessed of absolute truth, though it may not prove
beyond human wit to agree on some of them, given good will
and an openness to finding compromises based on equalising
disatisfaction all around.
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"decadence, n: the finest flowering of civilisation"
- yr hmbl srppnt., 8/72
larry
Sep 3, 2013, 6:58:08 PM9/3/13
to
On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 21:28:06 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
> - hi; in article, <kvvha3$8he$2...@dont-email.me>,
> sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" asserted:
>
>>It was not obvious to non-Zionists if they wished (for political reasons
>>or horror at the Holocast.) The Zionist literature at the time was clear
>>- the trifling few Arabs would be bought out necessary (if they had
>>papers proving title,) but would be removed, their villages demolished
>>to prevent their return and afforested to obscure that they were ever
>>there .
The time was the late sixties/early seventies; the opinions I expressed
> - hi; in article, <kvvha3$8he$2...@dont-email.me>,
> sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" asserted:
>
>>It was not obvious to non-Zionists if they wished (for political reasons
>>or horror at the Holocast.) The Zionist literature at the time was clear
>>- the trifling few Arabs would be bought out necessary (if they had
>>papers proving title,) but would be removed, their villages demolished
>>to prevent their return and afforested to obscure that they were ever
>>there .
were based on conversations with older Zionists, Israel Bond speakers,
parents of my housemates, I met in university.
They may have been cranking the shabos goy but their faction's aim was
to produce a state much like the present state of Israel.
>
> - check your dates. the holocaust was an achievement of the third
> reich - i.e. world war II.
> the rise of zionism antedates the rise of the nazi party,
> let alone the foundation of the third reich.
>
year older than I am.
> - check your presumptions. nowhere near all european jews were
> zionists, and the devout wish, next year in jerusalem, is no
indicator
> of zionism, let alone of anti-arab feeling.
>
> - check further presumptions. purchase of property from its
owners by
> agreement (and for cash) is generally agreed to be legal, even in
> merkia, canadadada & the uk of gb&ni: is there any reason to
suppose it
> was not so in palestine, whilst it was a part of the ottoman
empire ?
that the land your family lived on for three generations was legally
yours could be difficult. I find nothing more improper with europeans
buying palestinian land than with Kong Kong Chinese buying up a section
of the northern exurbs of Toronto and making all the road and store signs
bi-lingual. It's an exciting and interesting neighbourhood.
Stories that those palestinians not able to prove provenance were forced
to move or that unscrupulous palestinians forged papers to benefit from
their neighbours' misery have been recorded but I don't know how often
that occurred (probably less often than the one side claims and more
often than the other.)
> - after this?
>
> - who rightly owns new york, or toronto - or eboracum/york/
> jorvik/york, or waterford, or philadelphia...
>
sitting on lands that are part of treatyies with the "Mississauga Tribes
of the New Credit" et al. which defines leases on the land indefinitely
for an annual payment (greatly reduced by inflation, unfortunately.)
Victoria, the Great White Mother, insisted on it being a treaty between
sovereigns.
New York was purchased outright I believe.
I dinna ken the others.
> - wherein lies title to land ?
>
> - the answers to many of these questions are simple only to people
> possessed of absolute truth, though it may not prove beyond human
wit
> to agree on some of them, given good will and an openness to
finding
> compromises based on equalising disatisfaction all around.
>
> - love, ppint.
> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
Palestinian problem that can be achieved soon. There is no willingness to
water wines.
larry
Sep 3, 2013, 7:13:36 PM9/3/13
to
On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:39:30 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
> On 09-02-13 10:31 AM, larry wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 08:18:06 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In Israel it's illegal to try to convert anyone from any religion (or
>>> none) to any other religion (or none). We could use that law in the
>>> rest of the world.
>>>>
>>> Lesley.
>>
>> The world HQ for the Bahaiis runs up a hill in Haifa but nobody who
>> works there has a permanent residence permit or citizenship.
>>
> Presumably they soft-pedal the preaching too. If so, they become just
> one more schism, this time of Islam, and no threat to anybody.
>
> Lesley.
Certainly, no attempt to convert anyone *while in Israel*, the softest
> On 09-02-13 10:31 AM, larry wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 08:18:06 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In Israel it's illegal to try to convert anyone from any religion (or
>>> none) to any other religion (or none). We could use that law in the
>>> rest of the world.
>>>>
>>> Lesley.
>>
>> The world HQ for the Bahaiis runs up a hill in Haifa but nobody who
>> works there has a permanent residence permit or citizenship.
>>
> Presumably they soft-pedal the preaching too. If so, they become just
> one more schism, this time of Islam, and no threat to anybody.
>
> Lesley.
possible sells - pilgrims visiting require special visas for their one-
week stay, early arrivers before their reserved dates in Haifa get B&B at
kibbutz-im but you have to leave Israel as soon as one's business is done.
There are gender and class groups among Islamists who find the Bahaii
teachings attractive - the equality of women in access to education, the
lack of clergy (replaced by a democratically selected assembly,) the
validity of science as a way of seeing the world, and that one's beliefs
must be in accord with logic and science are a challenge to
traditionalist amongst Islam.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Sep 4, 2013, 1:22:50 AM9/4/13
to
On 2013-09-03 18:58:08 -0400, larry said:
> On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 21:28:06 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
>
>> - hi; in article, <kvvha3$8he$2...@dont-email.me>,
>> sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" asserted:
>>
> On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 21:28:06 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
>
>> - hi; in article, <kvvha3$8he$2...@dont-email.me>,
>> sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" asserted:
>>
>> - who rightly owns new york, or toronto - or eboracum/york/
>> jorvik/york, or waterford, or philadelphia...
>
> Toronto (in fact the whole of what is now the 'Golden Horseshoe') is
> sitting on lands that are part of treatyies with the "Mississauga Tribes
> of the New Credit" et al. which defines leases on the land indefinitely
> for an annual payment (greatly reduced by inflation, unfortunately.)
> Victoria, the Great White Mother, insisted on it being a treaty between
> sovereigns.
>
> New York was purchased outright I believe.
Well, no. The Dutch paid $24 in trade goods to the first Indians they
>> jorvik/york, or waterford, or philadelphia...
>
> Toronto (in fact the whole of what is now the 'Golden Horseshoe') is
> sitting on lands that are part of treatyies with the "Mississauga Tribes
> of the New Credit" et al. which defines leases on the land indefinitely
> for an annual payment (greatly reduced by inflation, unfortunately.)
> Victoria, the Great White Mother, insisted on it being a treaty between
> sovereigns.
>
> New York was purchased outright I believe.
came across in Manhattan, "buying" the island from them, but there's
the little catch that the Indians in question were apparently a hunting
party from what's now New Jersey who were happy to take the pretty
beads and trinkets for giving up their claim to something that wasn't
theirs to begin with.
Wall Street is named that because it's where the Dutch built the
defensive palisade to protect them from neighbors who didn't find that
whole "We bought it fair and square!" story convincing.
The English (including my many-times-great-grandfather Daniel Evans)
then came and took Nieuw Amsterdam away from the Dutch (including my
many-times-great-grandmother, whose name, alas, I do not know) as
spoils of war, and didn't pay anyone for it.
--
I'm serializing a new Ethshar novel!
http://www.ethshar.com/ishtascompanion06.html
GaryN
Sep 4, 2013, 4:59:26 AM9/4/13
to
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in news:l06g39$u1g$1@dont-
email.me:
<snip>
> The English (including my many-times-great-grandfather Daniel Evans)
> then came and took Nieuw Amsterdam away from the Dutch (including my
> many-times-great-grandmother, whose name, alas, I do not know) as
> spoils of war, and didn't pay anyone for it.
Yeah, we used to do quite a lot of that.
I, personally, don't think we should apologise for any of it. It was
the done thing at the time, although unacceptable now[1], and we were
better at it than everyone else.
gary
[1] Unless you are an arms or oil company lobbying the US/UK
governments.
email.me:
<snip>
> The English (including my many-times-great-grandfather Daniel Evans)
> then came and took Nieuw Amsterdam away from the Dutch (including my
> many-times-great-grandmother, whose name, alas, I do not know) as
> spoils of war, and didn't pay anyone for it.
I, personally, don't think we should apologise for any of it. It was
the done thing at the time, although unacceptable now[1], and we were
better at it than everyone else.
gary
[1] Unless you are an arms or oil company lobbying the US/UK
governments.
Walter Bushell
Sep 4, 2013, 9:50:46 AM9/4/13
to
In article <l05pi0$f8d$2...@dont-email.me>,
buy land from the HKCs?
larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Because of war disruption, the land provenance was not complete; proving
> that the land your family lived on for three generations was legally
> yours could be difficult. I find nothing more improper with europeans
> buying palestinian land than with Kong Kong Chinese buying up a section
> of the northern exurbs of Toronto and making all the road and store signs
> bi-lingual. It's an exciting and interesting neighbourhood.
But if The Hong Kong Chinese passed laws that said Canadians could not
> Because of war disruption, the land provenance was not complete; proving
> that the land your family lived on for three generations was legally
> yours could be difficult. I find nothing more improper with europeans
> buying palestinian land than with Kong Kong Chinese buying up a section
> of the northern exurbs of Toronto and making all the road and store signs
> bi-lingual. It's an exciting and interesting neighbourhood.
buy land from the HKCs?
larry
Sep 4, 2013, 12:52:36 PM9/4/13
to
On Wed, 04 Sep 2013 09:50:46 -0400, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article <l05pi0$f8d$2...@dont-email.me>,
> larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Because of war disruption, the land provenance was not complete;
>> proving that the land your family lived on for three generations was
>> legally yours could be difficult. I find nothing more improper with
>> europeans buying palestinian land than with Kong Kong Chinese buying up
>> a section of the northern exurbs of Toronto and making all the road and
>> store signs bi-lingual. It's an exciting and interesting neighbourhood.
>
> But if The Hong Kong Chinese passed laws that said Canadians could not
> buy land from the HKCs?
Covenants on the deeds or such? Hasn't happened yet but I want to live
> In article <l05pi0$f8d$2...@dont-email.me>,
> larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Because of war disruption, the land provenance was not complete;
>> proving that the land your family lived on for three generations was
>> legally yours could be difficult. I find nothing more improper with
>> europeans buying palestinian land than with Kong Kong Chinese buying up
>> a section of the northern exurbs of Toronto and making all the road and
>> store signs bi-lingual. It's an exciting and interesting neighbourhood.
>
> But if The Hong Kong Chinese passed laws that said Canadians could not
> buy land from the HKCs?
long enough to see how that community evolves.
Lesley Weston
Sep 4, 2013, 1:24:50 PM9/4/13
to
India, that around Commercial as Little Italy, the whole of Richmond as
Little China (as well as Chinatown in Vancouver itself), all of them
with bilingual signs. We go to all of them to eat and shop, and the
general feel of them all is much more exciting than the monoculture of
the Dunbar area, where we live for the moment.
There's a mall in Richmond (the Aberdeen Mall) where buying food and
things is sometimes difficult since nobody speaks English, but we
manage. It's really quite nice to be treated there with the respect that
Oriental cultures show to grey hair, even to the crowds parting to let
us through. I don't think we're giving the right depth of bow every time
(a lot of the people are Japanese), but they all seem to be remarkably
tolerant.
>
> Stories that those palestinians not able to prove provenance were forced
> to move or that unscrupulous palestinians forged papers to benefit from
> their neighbours' misery have been recorded but I don't know how often
> that occurred (probably less often than the one side claims and more
> often than the other.)
Almost certainly. It's just about impossible to find the truth at this
> Stories that those palestinians not able to prove provenance were forced
> to move or that unscrupulous palestinians forged papers to benefit from
> their neighbours' misery have been recorded but I don't know how often
> that occurred (probably less often than the one side claims and more
> often than the other.)
stage, now that the positions are so deeply entrenched.
>
>> - after this?
>>
>> - who rightly owns new york, or toronto - or eboracum/york/
>> jorvik/york, or waterford, or philadelphia...
>>
>
> Toronto (in fact the whole of what is now the 'Golden Horseshoe') is
> sitting on lands that are part of treatyies with the "Mississauga Tribes
> of the New Credit" et al. which defines leases on the land indefinitely
> for an annual payment (greatly reduced by inflation, unfortunately.)
> Victoria, the Great White Mother, insisted on it being a treaty between
> sovereigns.
And her successors ignored those treaties when they were no longer
>> - after this?
>>
>> - who rightly owns new york, or toronto - or eboracum/york/
>> jorvik/york, or waterford, or philadelphia...
>>
>
> Toronto (in fact the whole of what is now the 'Golden Horseshoe') is
> sitting on lands that are part of treatyies with the "Mississauga Tribes
> of the New Credit" et al. which defines leases on the land indefinitely
> for an annual payment (greatly reduced by inflation, unfortunately.)
> Victoria, the Great White Mother, insisted on it being a treaty between
> sovereigns.
convenient.
>
>
> New York was purchased outright I believe.
>
> I dinna ken the others.
>
>> - wherein lies title to land ?
>>
>> - the answers to many of these questions are simple only to people
>> possessed of absolute truth, though it may not prove beyond human
> wit
>> to agree on some of them, given good will and an openness to
> finding
>> compromises based on equalising disatisfaction all around.
>>
>> - love, ppint.
>> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
>
> I'm not sure that there is an honourable resolution of the Israel/
> Palestinian problem that can be achieved soon. There is no willingness to
> water wines.
>
No, it's going to take some time.
>
> New York was purchased outright I believe.
>
> I dinna ken the others.
>
>> - wherein lies title to land ?
>>
>> - the answers to many of these questions are simple only to people
>> possessed of absolute truth, though it may not prove beyond human
> wit
>> to agree on some of them, given good will and an openness to
> finding
>> compromises based on equalising disatisfaction all around.
>>
>> - love, ppint.
>> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
>
> I'm not sure that there is an honourable resolution of the Israel/
> Palestinian problem that can be achieved soon. There is no willingness to
> water wines.
>
Message has been deleted
Chris Zakes
Sep 4, 2013, 6:51:44 PM9/4/13
to
On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 06:17:54 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:
>"Jonathan Ellis" <jle3...@gmail.com> wrote in news:l02t3c$m1g$1
>@speranza.aioe.org:
>
>>
>> "Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
>> news:req929lp6gsnhnf6a...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> As a kid I always wondered why the Soviets kept calling their country
>>> CCCP.
>>
>> And there was I thinking it stood for Crazy Conspiracy of Communist
>> People...
>>
>> -- JLE
>
>Cunts Corrupting Communist Priciples?
>
>Particularly, but not limited to, Stalin. Why do so many "Father of his
>people" types feel the need to kill so many of said people?
>
>gary
Maybe it's like a new male lion taking over a pride and killing off
caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:
>"Jonathan Ellis" <jle3...@gmail.com> wrote in news:l02t3c$m1g$1
>@speranza.aioe.org:
>
>>
>> "Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
>> news:req929lp6gsnhnf6a...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> As a kid I always wondered why the Soviets kept calling their country
>>> CCCP.
>>
>> And there was I thinking it stood for Crazy Conspiracy of Communist
>> People...
>>
>> -- JLE
>
>Cunts Corrupting Communist Priciples?
>
>Particularly, but not limited to, Stalin. Why do so many "Father of his
>people" types feel the need to kill so many of said people?
>
>gary
all the male cubs?
-Chris Zakes
Texas
--
Butterflies are not insects, they are self-propelled flowers.
-Virginia Heinlein
Chris Zakes
Sep 4, 2013, 6:59:23 PM9/4/13
to
there are no great powers capable of intervening; this time the war
will go to a conclusion. The remains of Israel, Jordan, Syria and
Saudi Arabia are on the march. There are no jet planes and little fuel
for the tanks. There will be no ammunition resupply, and the war will
not end until it is fought with knives."
-From "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
GaryN
Sep 5, 2013, 6:50:08 AM9/5/13
to
Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:7nef29hatqorh0bne...@4ax.com:
<snip>
> "Further to the east the Palestinians and Israelis suddenly realize
> there are no great powers capable of intervening; this time the war
> will go to a conclusion. The remains of Israel, Jordan, Syria and
> Saudi Arabia are on the march. There are no jet planes and little fuel
> for the tanks. There will be no ammunition resupply, and the war will
> not end until it is fought with knives."
>
> -From "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
>
> -Chris Zakes
> Texas
That quote occurred to me too.
news:7nef29hatqorh0bne...@4ax.com:
<snip>
> "Further to the east the Palestinians and Israelis suddenly realize
> there are no great powers capable of intervening; this time the war
> will go to a conclusion. The remains of Israel, Jordan, Syria and
> Saudi Arabia are on the march. There are no jet planes and little fuel
> for the tanks. There will be no ammunition resupply, and the war will
> not end until it is fought with knives."
>
> -From "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
>
> -Chris Zakes
> Texas
larry
Sep 5, 2013, 10:14:29 AM9/5/13
to
On Wed, 04 Sep 2013 10:24:50 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
> On 09-03-13 3:58 PM, larry wrote:
>> Toronto (in fact the whole of what is now the 'Golden Horseshoe') is
>> sitting on lands that are part of treatyies with the "Mississauga
>> Tribes of the New Credit" et al. which defines leases on the land
>> indefinitely for an annual payment (greatly reduced by inflation,
>> unfortunately.) Victoria, the Great White Mother, insisted on it being
>> a treaty between sovereigns.
>
> And her successors ignored those treaties when they were no longer
> convenient.
>>
>>>
> Lesley.
> On 09-03-13 3:58 PM, larry wrote:
>> Toronto (in fact the whole of what is now the 'Golden Horseshoe') is
>> sitting on lands that are part of treatyies with the "Mississauga
>> Tribes of the New Credit" et al. which defines leases on the land
>> indefinitely for an annual payment (greatly reduced by inflation,
>> unfortunately.) Victoria, the Great White Mother, insisted on it being
>> a treaty between sovereigns.
>
> And her successors ignored those treaties when they were no longer
> convenient.
>>
>>>
In addition to all his less savoury characteristics, it turns out that
the colonial governor in these parts was a loyal subject - Vickie
instructed to treat Their Indians (They loved Their Indian allies as much
as Their Scottish folk .. though, fortunately, They didn't design
costumes for them to wear.) fairly and he did. Lord Simcoe was pretty
much a twit otherwise.
Unfortunately it seems the governors of the colonies on the left coast
were less obedient.
Judge Berger did the negotiation with the Mackenzie River valley natives
the right and proper way - documenting what the trad occupancy and usage
of what lands of each tribe and individual was, and then granting title
as we know it to their trad lands, first. Simcoe would have been prowd.
Lesley Weston
Sep 5, 2013, 10:30:14 AM9/5/13
to
(not Richmond) and didn't find out until the sale was complete that
there was a covenant on it from the twenties, when the house was built.
The previous owners hadn't realised either and when they found out they
were too embarrassed to tell her. Her husband is an architect, so they
pulled down the house and built a much nicer one in which they still
live; I'm not sure how that would affect the covenant.
Of course it would be illegal to try to observe the covenant now, which
shows how unimportant laws really are.
ppint. at pplay
Sep 6, 2013, 7:26:23 AM9/6/13
to
- hi; in article, <66re29pu62i2qb7nf...@4ax.com>,
"A.Reader" asserted:
[>]
>traditional land ownership is proven by reference to others in
>the community. "Oh sure, Ahmad's family has lived here since
>time out of mind. Good people, them."
>
>Pieces of paper recorded at a registry somewhere is a *very*
>recent invention, only coming into somewhat-universal practice
>during the 20th c.. The Ottomans, like the Europoid invaders of
>the Americas, simply ignored all traditional claims and handed
>out pieces of ownership paper to their beys and pashas ad
>libitum. And when the Jews came from Europe, they went to the
>Turks for those pieces of paper, again ignoring the traditional
>rights of the real owners.
- "the real owners" being who?
- and how did they acquire ownership in the first place,
and from whom?
- quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"never trust a man with shaved buttocks"
- jim darby, 2/9/96 (9/2/96 for merkins)
"A.Reader" asserted:
> larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Because of war disruption, the land provenance was not complete; proving
>>that the land your family lived on for three generations was legally
>>yours could be difficult. I find nothing more improper with europeans
>>buying palestinian land than with Kong Kong Chinese buying up a section
>>of the northern exurbs of Toronto and making all the road and store signs
>>bi-lingual. It's an exciting and interesting neighbourhood.
[>>]
>>Because of war disruption, the land provenance was not complete; proving
>>that the land your family lived on for three generations was legally
>>yours could be difficult. I find nothing more improper with europeans
>>buying palestinian land than with Kong Kong Chinese buying up a section
>>of the northern exurbs of Toronto and making all the road and store signs
>>bi-lingual. It's an exciting and interesting neighbourhood.
[>]
>traditional land ownership is proven by reference to others in
>the community. "Oh sure, Ahmad's family has lived here since
>time out of mind. Good people, them."
>
>Pieces of paper recorded at a registry somewhere is a *very*
>recent invention, only coming into somewhat-universal practice
>during the 20th c.. The Ottomans, like the Europoid invaders of
>the Americas, simply ignored all traditional claims and handed
>out pieces of ownership paper to their beys and pashas ad
>libitum. And when the Jews came from Europe, they went to the
>Turks for those pieces of paper, again ignoring the traditional
>rights of the real owners.
- "the real owners" being who?
- and how did they acquire ownership in the first place,
and from whom?
- quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
"never trust a man with shaved buttocks"
- jim darby, 2/9/96 (9/2/96 for merkins)
Robert Carnegie
Sep 6, 2013, 5:36:49 PM9/6/13
to
On Friday, 6 September 2013 12:26:23 UTC+1, "ppint. at pplay" wrote:
> - hi; in article, <66re29pu62i2qb7nf...@4ax.com>,
> "A.Reader" asserted:
> - hi; in article, <66re29pu62i2qb7nf...@4ax.com>,
> "A.Reader" asserted:
> >Pieces of paper recorded at a registry somewhere is a *very*
> >recent invention, only coming into somewhat-universal practice
> >during the 20th c.. The Ottomans, like the Europoid invaders of
> >the Americas, simply ignored all traditional claims and handed
> >out pieces of ownership paper to their beys and pashas ad
> >libitum. And when the Jews came from Europe, they went to the
> >Turks for those pieces of paper, again ignoring the traditional
> >rights of the real owners.
>
> - "the real owners" being who?
>
> - and how did they acquire ownership in the first place,
> and from whom?
>
> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
I think around here (United Kingdom and/or Scotland), if you move in and
> >recent invention, only coming into somewhat-universal practice
> >during the 20th c.. The Ottomans, like the Europoid invaders of
> >the Americas, simply ignored all traditional claims and handed
> >out pieces of ownership paper to their beys and pashas ad
> >libitum. And when the Jews came from Europe, they went to the
> >Turks for those pieces of paper, again ignoring the traditional
> >rights of the real owners.
>
> - "the real owners" being who?
>
> - and how did they acquire ownership in the first place,
> and from whom?
>
> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
no one objects for ten years, the place is yours.
It may not be so, but it's what I think is so.
larry
Sep 6, 2013, 5:47:58 PM9/6/13
to
We own our house, (including lot ... flora and fauna ... usufruct ... to
the depth of ten meters and the height of twenty meters above the soil
level of ... and so on ) :
Because we bought it in legal tender and registered the title change with
the provincial government; we paid a lawyer to search and certify that
the person we bought it from could sell it to us.
Because we pay municipal taxes on this money pit to the township who
recognize our claim to be its freeholders.
There is a chain of provenance going back to the 'Saugeen Tract
Agreement' which is presently being disputed as invalid. oops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saugeen_First_Nation
Walter Bushell
Sep 6, 2013, 8:01:19 PM9/6/13
to
In article <l0diie$6d6$1...@dont-email.me>,
How can you be freeholders if you have to pay taxes on the property?!
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Sep 7, 2013, 1:25:34 AM9/7/13
to
can get very complicated, but the basic idea is as stated.
Alec Cawley
Sep 7, 2013, 5:44:13 AM9/7/13
to
mutually agreed levy. You are a freeholder because you own the property in
perpetuity, and can modify it without asking permission (mostly).
Again, as with many things, such as gender, dividing things into two
totally exclusive domains does not model the real world well. What some
accept as the duties of a freeholder others might think compromise the
concept of freehold.
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 7:46:36 AM9/7/13
to
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:01:19 -0400, Walter Bushell wrote:
>>
> How can you be freeholders if you have to pay taxes on the property?!
We own the property directly and pay our own municipal taxes; we are not
>>
> How can you be freeholders if you have to pay taxes on the property?!
tenants of a landlord nor members/shareholders of a corporation/
condominium/co-operative that/who own the property.
It is ours in fee simple absolute.
Our garden and nawt can say ot about it.
Walter Bushell
Sep 7, 2013, 8:25:10 AM9/7/13
to
In article
<1026194621400239618.34...@news.individual.net>,
Which means that you are paying rent on the property (effectively).
And in the US, you can have the property seized by the government to
be turned over to some private group for their purposes.
<1026194621400239618.34...@news.individual.net>,
And in the US, you can have the property seized by the government to
be turned over to some private group for their purposes.
>
> Again, as with many things, such as gender, dividing things into two
> totally exclusive domains does not model the real world well. What some
> accept as the duties of a freeholder others might think compromise the
> concept of freehold.
> Again, as with many things, such as gender, dividing things into two
> totally exclusive domains does not model the real world well. What some
> accept as the duties of a freeholder others might think compromise the
> concept of freehold.
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 11:03:22 AM9/7/13
to
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 11:12:33 AM9/7/13
to
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:25:10 -0400, Walter Bushell wrote:
> Which means that you are paying rent on the property (effectively). And
> in the US, you can have the property seized by the government to be
> turned over to some private group for their purposes.
>>
More like Condominium Maintenance fees than rent - I get a crew of hearty-
> Which means that you are paying rent on the property (effectively). And
> in the US, you can have the property seized by the government to be
> turned over to some private group for their purposes.
>>
boys to cut down trees, clear the sidewalk and street of snow, deliver
certified clean water and quietly take away my night soil.
I'm not too fussed about the possibility of the Crown exercising Their
rights of Eminent Domain - the compensation is quite generous.
Lesley Weston
Sep 7, 2013, 12:41:22 PM9/7/13
to
there's no such thing, the land is the land and we are part of it.
Lesley Weston
Sep 7, 2013, 12:49:34 PM9/7/13
to
and his wife currently own a new house that is part of a strata
development. Except that they still don't actually own it after more
than a year, because the society that built it (with their physical help
and that of the other householders there) and holds the mortgages is
having problems with the niceties of legal terminology. So the money
they pay to the society every month is rent, not a mortgage payment,
though it does contribute to their equity.
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 1:31:18 PM9/7/13
to
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:26:23 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
>
> - love, ppint.
> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
Property is theft; property is freedom.
> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
>
> - love, ppint.
> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 1:32:51 PM9/7/13
to
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 09:49:34 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
> Then there are all the complications arising from Strata Title. My son
> and his wife currently own a new house that is part of a strata
> development. Except that they still don't actually own it after more
> than a year, because the society that built it (with their physical help
> and that of the other householders there) and holds the mortgages is
> having problems with the niceties of legal terminology. So the money
> they pay to the society every month is rent, not a mortgage payment,
> though it does contribute to their equity.
>
> Lesley.
Strata Title?
> Then there are all the complications arising from Strata Title. My son
> and his wife currently own a new house that is part of a strata
> development. Except that they still don't actually own it after more
> than a year, because the society that built it (with their physical help
> and that of the other householders there) and holds the mortgages is
> having problems with the niceties of legal terminology. So the money
> they pay to the society every month is rent, not a mortgage payment,
> though it does contribute to their equity.
>
> Lesley.
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 1:46:50 PM9/7/13
to
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 09:41:22 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
> I incline to the North American First Nations' idea of land ownership:
> there's no such thing, the land is the land and we are part of it.
>
> Lesley.
Hernando de Soto Polar spent his life studying indigenous land usage
> I incline to the North American First Nations' idea of land ownership:
> there's no such thing, the land is the land and we are part of it.
>
> Lesley.
patterns and he says he's yet to find communal ownership of property; the
dogs know where the limits of their families' property is even if it's
not registered in the national capital.
When I was in Moosonee, every fisher knew where his traditional and
exclusive fishing grounds on the Moose was - he had bought it from
someone or had inherited it from his father; every trapper knew where the
limits of his and every other trappers' hunting area was.
The british commons and the north american indians' common ownership of
property are curiosities to be wondered at.
Message has been deleted
Free Lunch
Sep 7, 2013, 4:22:24 PM9/7/13
to
On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC), larry
<sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
>On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:26:23 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
>
>
>> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
Power.
>> - love, ppint.
>> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
>
>Property is theft; property is freedom.
That covers almost every political view in the world.
<sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
>On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:26:23 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
>
>
>> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
>> - love, ppint.
>> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
>
>Property is theft; property is freedom.
Alec Cawley
Sep 7, 2013, 4:37:54 PM9/7/13
to
house on it, build a factory on it, mine under it. You have the traditional
conflict between the cattle men, the sheep men, the wheat farmer, and the
nomad they all threw off the land.
I don't thing freehold has to do with taxes at the bottom level. It is how
much attention I have to pay to others if I want to keep using the land or
building in its original way. If I want to convert the bath to a shower or
vice versa, who stops me?
Message has been deleted
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 5:40:02 PM9/7/13
to
Prince Kropotkin managed to describe the problem perfectly accurately but
without giving any guidance to right behaviour.
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 5:42:51 PM9/7/13
to
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 21:06:25 +0000, Lewis wrote:
> In message <l0fo03$7cg$2...@dont-email.me>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strata_title>
So somewhat different from a condominium corporation then.
Thanks.
> In message <l0fo03$7cg$2...@dont-email.me>
So somewhat different from a condominium corporation then.
Thanks.
larry
Sep 7, 2013, 6:03:27 PM9/7/13
to
lives because we wanted to be able to adapt our environment to our
circumstances - as they change, without having to explain and ask
permission from a landlord/co-op committee/condominium board. A century
old house in a rural township is the most permissive option we could
find. So far nothing we've needed to do has required a visit to the one-
man building department to get a permit and I don't expect to but the
procedure is simple.
Paul Jamison
Sep 7, 2013, 10:24:02 PM9/7/13
to
"Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
news:om2n29p2cq7atk4dh...@4ax.com...
Paul
ppint. at pplay
Sep 7, 2013, 10:20:38 PM9/7/13
to
- hi; in article, <l0fo03$7cg$2...@dont-email.me>,
sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" queried:
>Strata Title?
- yes; terry's third novel.
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"No creature without tentacles had ever developed true intelligence."
- "Hunting Problem" Robert Sheckley
sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" queried:
>Strata Title?
- yes; terry's third novel.
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
"No creature without tentacles had ever developed true intelligence."
- "Hunting Problem" Robert Sheckley
ppint. at pplay
Sep 7, 2013, 10:32:43 PM9/7/13
to
- hi; in article, <l0edce$kfl$1...@dont-email.me>,
l...@sff.net "Lawrence Watt-Evans" noted:
be significant differences still between english and welsh
law, which bore some similarity with irish law regarding a
"house" built overnight, with four walls, a door, a hearth
and a fire lit and kept in, and continuously occupied, for
a certain, much lesser time (i think, one year; bicvwbw).
and "no one objects" includes, or included, successfully
charges you rent or starts legal proceedings to recover the
property (in the sense of pre-existimg building or land that
has been occupied - squatted - i think), or to recover rent
from the occupier, that is either later successful or, per-
haps, is successful within a time limit. i used to know
the details in english law and in irish law, and that the
welsh law included or had included some similarities with
the irish law - but that was in another life (when i became
a civil servant, in order to afford escaping from london...)
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"Earth occupies about one-half a degree in two dimensions."
- the real dick eney on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/2005 for merkins)
l...@sff.net "Lawrence Watt-Evans" noted:
> Robert Carnegie said:
>> ppint. at pplay" wrote:
>>> - "the real owners" being who?
>>> - and how did they acquire ownership in the first place,
>>> and from whom?
>>> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
>>
>>I think around here (United Kingdom and/or Scotland), if you move in and
>>no one objects for ten years, the place is yours.
>>It may not be so, but it's what I think is so.
>
>That's called "adverse possession" here in the States. The rules on it
>can get very complicated, but the basic idea is as stated.
- it is the same term in england & wales, though there may
>> ppint. at pplay" wrote:
>>> - "the real owners" being who?
>>> - and how did they acquire ownership in the first place,
>>> and from whom?
>>> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
>>
>>I think around here (United Kingdom and/or Scotland), if you move in and
>>no one objects for ten years, the place is yours.
>>It may not be so, but it's what I think is so.
>
>That's called "adverse possession" here in the States. The rules on it
>can get very complicated, but the basic idea is as stated.
be significant differences still between english and welsh
law, which bore some similarity with irish law regarding a
"house" built overnight, with four walls, a door, a hearth
and a fire lit and kept in, and continuously occupied, for
a certain, much lesser time (i think, one year; bicvwbw).
and "no one objects" includes, or included, successfully
charges you rent or starts legal proceedings to recover the
property (in the sense of pre-existimg building or land that
has been occupied - squatted - i think), or to recover rent
from the occupier, that is either later successful or, per-
haps, is successful within a time limit. i used to know
the details in english law and in irish law, and that the
welsh law included or had included some similarities with
the irish law - but that was in another life (when i became
a civil servant, in order to afford escaping from london...)
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
- the real dick eney on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/2005 for merkins)
Nigel Stapley
Sep 8, 2013, 7:24:33 AM9/8/13
to
1536), it was called a 'hafod unnos' = a 'one-night dwelling'.
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
www.thejudge.me.uk
<reply-to will bounce>
Nigel Stapley
Sep 8, 2013, 7:25:55 AM9/8/13
to
"Your property is theft, our property is infinite"
Lesley Weston
Sep 8, 2013, 10:32:11 AM9/8/13
to
thing at that time; his first Vancouver building, a small office block
from the 70s, is all cedar and glass.
Apparently it wasn't possible simply to ignore the covenant, as I
thought. They had to go to court and have it formally revoked before
they could complete the purchase; even though such covenants are now
illegal and can't have any force, they were still a legal instrument
when they were drawn up.
Lesley Weston
Sep 8, 2013, 10:42:07 AM9/8/13
to
townhouse ownership and allow for a crew of hearty-boys to take care of
communal chores as you describe up thread. I guess it's like a
leasehold, except that there's no term: you own the building but not the
land, and you pay a small monthly fee to a central body elected from
among the householders, the Strata Council, for the hearty-boys'
services and any communal repairs etc.
larry
Sep 8, 2013, 10:47:52 AM9/8/13
to
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 03:20:38 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
> - hi; in article, <l0fo03$7cg$2...@dont-email.me>,
> sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" queried:
>
>>Strata Title?
>
> - yes; terry's third novel.
>
> - love, ppint.
> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
And a breakfast or brunch casserole which hides last night's party
> - hi; in article, <l0fo03$7cg$2...@dont-email.me>,
> sshirley...@gmail.com "larry" queried:
>
>>Strata Title?
>
> - yes; terry's third novel.
>
> - love, ppint.
> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
leftovers.
Lesley Weston
Sep 8, 2013, 11:00:27 AM9/8/13
to
apart from the tribal long houses. Many of the cultures didn't farm
either, or not as we would recognise it. They did grow things and the
tangles that Neal Stephenson describes in /Anathem/ are their idea, but
they didn't have the idea that one man owned a piece of land and could
leave it to his sons and only his sons.
Tangles work very well. Their real name translates as "Three Sisters"
because you grow three crops simultaneously on the same plot of land:
the beans add nitrogen to the soil, the corn (maize) or sunflowers
provide something for the beans to climb, the squashes shade everybody's
roots, and you can eat all of them. We have some large pots along the
narrow bit between the East side of our house and the open lane, which
we use as Four Sisters (both corn and sunflowers), and this year we're
having a phenomenal crop.
larry
Sep 8, 2013, 11:30:01 AM9/8/13
to
stucco (burnt sienna,) applied over ferrocement. Very attractive,
surprisingly.
> Apparently it wasn't possible simply to ignore the covenant, as I
> thought. They had to go to court and have it formally revoked before
> they could complete the purchase; even though such covenants are now
> illegal and can't have any force, they were still a legal instrument
> when they were drawn up.
>
> Lesley.
larry
Sep 8, 2013, 11:43:04 AM9/8/13
to
(unless also owners.) The owners of units can buy/sell/hypothecate/rent
their unit but are not required to be residents. Non-owner tenants have
no vote.
With a a co-op, the resident tenants vote in the council/board but only
have a leasehold on their unit - require board approval to sublease and
residents must be members of the co-op.
Sounds like a strata is similar to but not the same as either of the
others?
Lesley Weston
Sep 8, 2013, 11:48:50 AM9/8/13
to
Lesley Weston
Sep 8, 2013, 11:59:54 AM9/8/13
to
On 09-07-13 1:22 PM, A.Reader wrote:
> been living there continuously since before records were kept.
So the land was just empty before the Arabs settled it? It doesn't seem
likely, since even Moses' lot had to displace the Canaanites to enjoy
their promised land, the same land, just as the Goths had to displace
the Romans from what the Romans considered their own land to make our
current civilisation. Plus ça change...
> jurisdictions controlled by psychopaths and/or infested with
> lawyers, is peaceful, continuous usage.
So that would include all present governments among the psychopaths.
Actually, you may have a point there.
>
> All around the world, everywhere, no matter the climate, culture,
> skin color, or language: living on the land from which one gets
> water, food, and shelter gradually creates the right to keep
> doing it.
How?
>
> It's even now encoded in the UN Charter: indigenous populations
> no longer have to have a flag in order to have the right to the
> land that supports them.
>
Which is a nice idea, but it doesn't affect reality.
> On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:26:23 +0100 (BST),
> v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk ("ppint. at pplay") wrote:
>
>>> Pieces of paper recorded at a registry somewhere is a *very*
>>> recent invention, only coming into somewhat-universal practice
>>> during the 20th c.. The Ottomans, like the Europoid invaders of
>>> the Americas, simply ignored all traditional claims and handed
>>> out pieces of ownership paper to their beys and pashas ad
>>> libitum. And when the Jews came from Europe, they went to the
>>> Turks for those pieces of paper, again ignoring the traditional
>>> rights of the real owners.
>>
>> - "the real owners" being who?
>
> The olive, date, or truck farmers and similar whose families have
> v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk ("ppint. at pplay") wrote:
>
>>> Pieces of paper recorded at a registry somewhere is a *very*
>>> recent invention, only coming into somewhat-universal practice
>>> during the 20th c.. The Ottomans, like the Europoid invaders of
>>> the Americas, simply ignored all traditional claims and handed
>>> out pieces of ownership paper to their beys and pashas ad
>>> libitum. And when the Jews came from Europe, they went to the
>>> Turks for those pieces of paper, again ignoring the traditional
>>> rights of the real owners.
>>
>> - "the real owners" being who?
>
> been living there continuously since before records were kept.
>
>>
>> - and how did they acquire ownership in the first place,
>> and from whom?
>
> By living on it peacefully, it being not otherwise in use.
>>
>> - and how did they acquire ownership in the first place,
>> and from whom?
>
So the land was just empty before the Arabs settled it? It doesn't seem
likely, since even Moses' lot had to displace the Canaanites to enjoy
their promised land, the same land, just as the Goths had to displace
the Romans from what the Romans considered their own land to make our
current civilisation. Plus ça change...
>
>>
>> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
>
> The traditional root, recognised *everywhere* except in those
>>
>> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
>
> jurisdictions controlled by psychopaths and/or infested with
> lawyers, is peaceful, continuous usage.
So that would include all present governments among the psychopaths.
Actually, you may have a point there.
>
> All around the world, everywhere, no matter the climate, culture,
> skin color, or language: living on the land from which one gets
> water, food, and shelter gradually creates the right to keep
> doing it.
How?
>
> It's even now encoded in the UN Charter: indigenous populations
> no longer have to have a flag in order to have the right to the
> land that supports them.
>
Which is a nice idea, but it doesn't affect reality.
ppint. at pplay
Sep 8, 2013, 3:01:41 PM9/8/13
to
- hi; in article,
<oN2dnY2e-rjvw7HP...@brightview.co.uk>,
un...@judgemental.plus.com "Nigel Stapley" identified:
- that's it!
- thanks, it's been a few years since i came across the term
(and the principle, and its being the root of someone's title
to ownership of a property).
- i don't know the last time anyone succeeded in establishing
ownership thus in any of the constituent countries in the uk
of gb & ni, or in ireland: but such a title is inheritable as
soundly as any other.
- love, a ppint. as has come across title established fairly
recently by adverse possession in england, the new
owners' gain being welcomed by everyone in the nearby village
- _Chanur's Homecoming_, C. J. Cherryh, 1987
Phantasia, Daw & Methuen Books
<oN2dnY2e-rjvw7HP...@brightview.co.uk>,
un...@judgemental.plus.com "Nigel Stapley" identified:
- thanks, it's been a few years since i came across the term
(and the principle, and its being the root of someone's title
to ownership of a property).
- i don't know the last time anyone succeeded in establishing
ownership thus in any of the constituent countries in the uk
of gb & ni, or in ireland: but such a title is inheritable as
soundly as any other.
- love, a ppint. as has come across title established fairly
recently by adverse possession in england, the new
owners' gain being welcomed by everyone in the nearby village
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"The Dinner was loose again."
--
- _Chanur's Homecoming_, C. J. Cherryh, 1987
Phantasia, Daw & Methuen Books
Walter Bushell
Sep 9, 2013, 7:50:58 AM9/9/13
to
In article <l0i5u8$j95$2...@dont-email.me>,
causes a lot of angst among buyers and sellers who need to unload.
With a condo, you can sell to anyone in general. I was living in a
building undergoing a condo conversion and the papers and rules were
the size of an encyclopedia, in legalese. Written by the sponsors to
the prospective buyers like the Treaty of Versailles. For example, the
residential tenants were responsible for clearing the sidewalks and
the commercial space had no such responsibility.
--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> With a a co-op, the resident tenants vote in the council/board but only
> have a leasehold on their unit - require board approval to sublease and
> residents must be members of the co-op.
And co-op buyers must be approved, by the board at least in NYC, which
>
> With a a co-op, the resident tenants vote in the council/board but only
> have a leasehold on their unit - require board approval to sublease and
> residents must be members of the co-op.
causes a lot of angst among buyers and sellers who need to unload.
With a condo, you can sell to anyone in general. I was living in a
building undergoing a condo conversion and the papers and rules were
the size of an encyclopedia, in legalese. Written by the sponsors to
the prospective buyers like the Treaty of Versailles. For example, the
residential tenants were responsible for clearing the sidewalks and
the commercial space had no such responsibility.
--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
Walter Bushell
Sep 9, 2013, 7:55:40 AM9/9/13
to
In article <l0i692$2o8g$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
having no rights to property even to the right to live or not be
enslaved.
Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09-07-13 1:22 PM, Free Lunch wrote:
> > On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC), larry
> > <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
> >
> >> On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:26:23 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
> >
> > Power.
> >
> >>> - love, ppint.
> >>> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
> >>
> >> Property is theft; property is freedom.
> >
> > That covers almost every political view in the world.
> >
> And both halves are often held simultaneously by one culture.
>
> Lesley.
Well it helps if you can consider the people you are stealing from as
> On 09-07-13 1:22 PM, Free Lunch wrote:
> > On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC), larry
> > <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:
> >
> >> On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:26:23 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> - quite seriously, what is the root of all title to land?
> >
> > Power.
> >
> >>> - love, ppint.
> >>> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
> >>
> >> Property is theft; property is freedom.
> >
> > That covers almost every political view in the world.
> >
> And both halves are often held simultaneously by one culture.
>
> Lesley.
having no rights to property even to the right to live or not be
enslaved.
Walter Bushell
Sep 9, 2013, 7:58:56 AM9/9/13
to
In article <l0i6tr$2ok1$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
world.
Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > By living on it peacefully, it being not otherwise in use.
>
> So the land was just empty before the Arabs settled it? It doesn't seem
> likely, since even Moses' lot had to displace the Canaanites to enjoy
> their promised land, the same land, just as the Goths had to displace
> the Romans from what the Romans considered their own land to make our
> current civilisation. Plus ça change...
> >
Well you know what follows from that kind of logic. I suppose the real
> > By living on it peacefully, it being not otherwise in use.
>
> So the land was just empty before the Arabs settled it? It doesn't seem
> likely, since even Moses' lot had to displace the Canaanites to enjoy
> their promised land, the same land, just as the Goths had to displace
> the Romans from what the Romans considered their own land to make our
> current civilisation. Plus ça change...
> >
world.
larry
Sep 9, 2013, 8:01:02 AM9/9/13
to
pre-European Turtle Island history. The Mayans, Incas, Toltecs, Aztec
built with stone and so their buildings survived and they clearly had
agriculture with crop rotation using fire for field-clearing alternated
with fallowing;
further north, those that built with less resilient materials had
settlements in location permanent enough to build mounds clearly above
mean ground level in the Mississippi valley;
some of the southwest tribes built permanent adobe apartment buildings
against/on cliffs and engaged in irrigated farming. see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_era
Walter Bushell
Sep 9, 2013, 8:02:38 AM9/9/13
to
> > It's even now encoded in the UN Charter: indigenous populations
> > no longer have to have a flag in order to have the right to the
> > land that supports them.
> >
> Which is a nice idea, but it doesn't affect reality.
>
> Lesley.
I think we would like to live in that other world. Just like the
> > no longer have to have a flag in order to have the right to the
> > land that supports them.
> >
> Which is a nice idea, but it doesn't affect reality.
>
> Lesley.
American Indians their right to land is absolute until some the
dominate society finds a use for the land, or the water the Indians
need to live. Consider the case of the Pima Indians, the whites left
them the land but took the water, instant poverty.
larry
Sep 9, 2013, 9:37:57 AM9/9/13
to
On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 07:50:58 -0400, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article <l0i5u8$j95$2...@dont-email.me>,
> larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> With a a co-op, the resident tenants vote in the council/board but only
>> have a leasehold on their unit - require board approval to sublease and
>> residents must be members of the co-op.
>
> And co-op buyers must be approved, by the board at least in NYC, which
> causes a lot of angst among buyers and sellers who need to unload.
>
That's different. Our co-operatives own the entire multiple residential
> In article <l0i5u8$j95$2...@dont-email.me>,
> larry <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> With a a co-op, the resident tenants vote in the council/board but only
>> have a leasehold on their unit - require board approval to sublease and
>> residents must be members of the co-op.
>
> And co-op buyers must be approved, by the board at least in NYC, which
> causes a lot of angst among buyers and sellers who need to unload.
>
building and the members don't own any particular part.
> With a condo, you can sell to anyone in general. I was living in a
> building undergoing a condo conversion and the papers and rules were the
> size of an encyclopedia, in legalese. Written by the sponsors to the
> prospective buyers like the Treaty of Versailles. For example, the
> residential tenants were responsible for clearing the sidewalks and the
> commercial space had no such responsibility.
Lesley Weston
Sep 9, 2013, 11:18:19 AM9/9/13
to
architecture. Another architect friend is pushing wooden buildings of at
least five stories, which she says are stronger than conventional
structures when the wood is suitably treated. In Switzerland, where she
lives, they're listening to her and others' ideas about this. She's also
pushing prefab houses of wood, and BC is apparently beginning to listen
to that idea too.
And then there's the technique used here for the foundations of
building two walls of thin plywood and sandwiching giant Styrofoam Lego
blocks between them, locked together. Then you pour concrete into the
blocks, and when it's set you have an amazingly strong, yet flexible,
insulated wall.
Lesley Weston
Sep 9, 2013, 12:27:21 PM9/9/13
to
but it had no powers and we all considered ourselves to be tenants,
paying rent and not required to do any repairs inside or out; the whole
thing was managed by a rental agency. The only thing that made it a
co-op was that if you stayed there for at least five years, then when
you left you got the difference in your unit's value between when you
moved in and when you moved out.
We were the first to claim it, when we came to Canada. The agency put
up all sorts of difficulties and eventually had to be threatened in a
Solicitor's Letter (a fearsome thing in UK law) before they would pay
out. It would have been enough for the down-payment on a place in
Vancouver (which was our plan) if they had paid it when they were
supposed to, but by the time we got it the exchange rate had dived and
we had lost about a third of it.
Selling a strata place is much the same as selling a regular house:
whatever equity you have is yours. I don't think there are any
requirements about residency, once it's yours.
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