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Jens Murer

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Aug 10, 2002, 4:31:11 AM8/10/02
to
"Warwick" <war...@lspace.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3d546c26$1...@warwick.dnsalias.com...
> I've gone over it since. Yup that's *bad* slash.

But there is good fan-fiction, too, isn't it?

Katherine F.

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Aug 10, 2002, 9:17:12 AM8/10/02
to
On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:31:11 +0200, "Jens Murer"
<dae...@stadtwache.net> typed into his/her/its keyboard the following:

Just to prove that it can be done:

http://debchan.com/misc/concurrence.html

Adult content, in case you couldn't have guessed.

--
Katherine F. replace "dot" with "." http://puritybrown.diaryland.com/
'"The movie could've been so much gayer with biting."'

Michael Swarbrick

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Aug 10, 2002, 10:25:55 AM8/10/02
to
Katherine F. <katherinef@softhomedotnet>
wrote in message news:3d551179...@news.iol.ie...

> On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:31:11 +0200, "Jens Murer"
> <dae...@stadtwache.net> typed into his/her/its keyboard
the following:
> >"Warwick" <war...@lspace.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >news:3d546c26$1...@warwick.dnsalias.com...
> >> I've gone over it since. Yup that's *bad* slash.
> >
> >But there is good fan-fiction, too, isn't it?
>
> Just to prove that it can be done:
>
> http://debchan.com/misc/concurrence.html
>
> Adult content, in case you couldn't have guessed

OK, I admit it. I just can't see the difference in quality
between the above link and the one posted by Warwick.

Both stories steal there characters from another author.
And both give certain characters a different personality
than the original. IMO they are both awful.

Having said that I don't see much wrong[1] with people
writing this stuff. Whatever keeps you happy, style of
thing.

BBFN, Michael

[1] Barring copyright issues.


Jens Murer

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Aug 10, 2002, 11:53:10 AM8/10/02
to
"Michael Swarbrick" <spam...@custom-service.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:aj37ss$17tov6$1...@ID-150863.news.dfncis.de...

> Both stories steal there characters from another author.
> And both give certain characters a different personality
> than the original. IMO they are both awful.

Well... what would be with authors who not manipulate a world (The Disc,
Middle-Earth, Aventurien...), but use it for their own stories with their
own characters. Especially the Disc is well to use for that because anything
could just be seen as an alternative (I don't know the proper english term,
it's that thing with the trousers, you know what I mean).
Example: Somebody want to bring joy and happiness to the world by telling a
story on his/her homepage about a self-invented witch in Lancre who does
some funny things there. Huh - some would say - what about the witches who
are already there? What witches - would the author say - it's not the Lancre
of Granny and Magrat, but an alternative Lancre, the one of my little witch
let's call her Petunia Flowerfield.
Or somebody writes stuff about countries in a fantasy-world of your choice
which never were described exactly, perharps just mentioned.
Would this be also wrong? Or would that be a kind of 'good fan-fiction'?
(Not looking on the copyright-thing).

- dae / jens


Julia Jones

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Aug 10, 2002, 12:51:35 PM8/10/02
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In article <aj2iss$1dj$06$1...@news.t-online.com>, Jens Murer
<dae...@stadtwache.net> writes
Good as in good quality, or good as in it is all right to do this sort
of thing?

The latter is always a tricky thing, in that the writer may not actually
be personally bothered by fanfic, but has to be careful about losing
control of his/her creation. This goes double for corporate properties
like tv shows. Ask Terry for the details of defending trademarks...

The former - well, one of the things about fanfic is that a lot of it is
written by women, for women. It addresses the sort of things that women
like to read. As such, a lot of men can read it and genuinely think it's
a pile of crap, because it doesn't have the sorts of things that *they*
think belong in a story, and focuses on stuff that they consider
unimportant. Yes, this is a Sweeping Generalisation, but it's the great
action/emotions divide. As an example, M Fae Glasgow's Sunday Bloody
Sunday
http://www.oblique-publications.net/archives/paeanii/8_sunday_ptopII.pdf
is a powerful piece of writing by an accomplished writer, but I suspect
that many men just won't get the point - and won't see anything other
than mush about two blokes slapping their bits together.

Another problem is that one of the attractions of writing fanfic is that
you can draw on the great body of canon, and make a passing reference to
some event that will have an impact on the reader that would be lost if
you had to take a couple of pages to spell it out in detail. If you're
not familiar with the source material, you don't catch the references,
and the story feels flat or doesn't make sense. I did this with one of
mine - a short piece that foreshadowed the final episode of Blake's 7.
If you know what happens in canon, it's a chilling, upsetting piece. If
you don't know Blake's 7 canon, it's a piece of PWP fluff. In retrospect
I made a mistake letting a multimedia zine editor have it, because
although it makes sense to a casual reader unfamiliar with B7, it's not
the same story. That made me realise that I might be missing out on
similar cues and references in fandoms I wasn't familiar with, and I
wonder how many good stories I thought were poor because I didn't have
the tools to read them properly.
--
Julia Jones
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send
unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org
address.

Arwen Lune

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Aug 10, 2002, 2:55:38 PM8/10/02
to
Via mysterious ways, a message from Jens Murer reached me on Sat,
10 Aug 2002 10:31:11 +0200. This is what it read:

> But there is good fan-fiction, too, isn't it?

I would go so far as saying that there is also GREAT fanfiction
around. I'm currently in Lord of the Rings fandom and have
encountered some terrific, in character, well-flowing, natural
writing. It's just that one will have a hard time finding it
between the fangirly stuff on places like fanfiction.net..

I'll give some links to demonstrate...
http://www.henneth-annun.net/

This is an archieve of LotR fiction that is moderated, ie your
story will have to be voted into it by Tolkien fans who write.
(I'm honoured to have one of my short stories in there -
search by author 'Arwen_Lune' and it'll turn up)

A few personal recommendations are:

'Reunion'
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=403487

'Land of Light and Shadows'
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=473575

'While the Ring Went South'
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=439625

I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...


Cheers,
Arwen Lune
--
"Bother" said Pooh. "Send out the Nine, I want my Ring!"

Arwen Lune | I'm not a person, I'm member A210

Jens Murer

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Aug 10, 2002, 3:30:00 PM8/10/02
to
"Arwen Lune" <ar...@meanandevil.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:MPG.17bf801af...@news.cis.dfn.de...

> This is an archieve of LotR fiction that is moderated, ie your
> story will have to be voted into it by Tolkien fans who write.

Sounds great... fans vote other fans.. do correct and support each other to
improve further stories?


... I know, there must be TONS of comments on the movie... here my 2 pence:
The ending is great... not like the book, but great anyway...
Favourite characters would be Gandalf and Merry...
But Loth-Lorién suxx... could cry everytime I see the scenes...

What scenes will be added exactly on the Special Edition?

greetings
- dae / jens

*~*~*
http://www.llamedos.de

Jens Murer

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Aug 10, 2002, 3:34:37 PM8/10/02
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"Julia Jones" <jaj...@suespammers.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:7EJF1CGX...@jajones.demon.co.uk...

> In article <aj2iss$1dj$06$1...@news.t-online.com>, Jens Murer
> <dae...@stadtwache.net> writes

As an example, M Fae Glasgow's Sunday Bloody
> Sunday is a powerful piece of writing by an accomplished writer,


> but I suspect
> that many men just won't get the point - and won't see anything other
> than mush about two blokes slapping their bits together.

Hey... that's rude... true, but rude. ;o)
From my point of view, I see many male writers... but they are young and
could change later ;o))

> Another problem is that one of the attractions of writing fanfic is that
> you can draw on the great body of canon, and make a passing reference to
> some event that will have an impact on the reader that would be lost if
> you had to take a couple of pages to spell it out in detail. If you're
> not familiar with the source material, you don't catch the references,
> and the story feels flat or doesn't make sense.

Well... but that's the definition of fanfic I thought (till now)
storywriting on an existing world/universe for fun and for those who know
the world. I would not send someone to a Adams-Fansite to show him his work,
I'd give him/her the book and LATER send him to the site.

Julia Jones

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Aug 10, 2002, 4:15:16 PM8/10/02
to
In article <aj3q4m$ljb$07$1...@news.t-online.com>, Jens Murer
<dae...@stadtwache.net> writes

>> Another problem is that one of the attractions of writing fanfic is that
>> you can draw on the great body of canon, and make a passing reference to
>> some event that will have an impact on the reader that would be lost if
>> you had to take a couple of pages to spell it out in detail. If you're
>> not familiar with the source material, you don't catch the references,
>> and the story feels flat or doesn't make sense.
>
>Well... but that's the definition of fanfic I thought (till now)
>storywriting on an existing world/universe for fun and for those who know
>the world. I would not send someone to a Adams-Fansite to show him his work,
>I'd give him/her the book and LATER send him to the site.

it does make it difficult to show someone examples of good writing,
though. You have to find a common interest, and pick something out of
that. I took Sunday, Bloody Sunday partly because it is an excellent
example of the action/emotions divide, but also because there's a
minimum of background needed to understand it (although a little bit of
background summary would help if you've never seen Pros). I could
recommend some stunning pieces of Blake's 7 slash that were not even
written as porn, but there's little point for people not already
familiar with the canon.

Sadly, one of the things you get with adult fanfic is people who are
interested in the smut and not the fandom. I know of more than one
fanfic list which is not advertised to the world at large, because it is
a mailing list for members of that fandom, rather than people just
looking for smut, and they're trying not to attract the attention of the
latter.

Sian Hiscock

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Aug 10, 2002, 5:41:54 PM8/10/02
to
Well, there is good fanfiction. I was thinking that Tom Stoppard is just a
fanboy for writing "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein." Which is, for those of
you that DIDN'T study it for English (it's a teacher's fave, you know)
it's Hamlet from the eyes of two very minor characters, Stoppard inventing a
sub-plot that sits rather strangely around the "my lords" and "prithees" of
Shakespearian prose poetry.

Milton gave Satan a voice in "Paradise Lost," Jean Rhys rewrites "Wide
Sargasso Sea" from the female view- and I have vague recollections of an
author re-doing Rebecca. And of course, Baz Lurhman with his Romeo + Juliet,
which isn't exactly re-writing the story, it's retelling it to a modern
audience, with gangsters and Leonardo Di Caprio. Something old Willy is
quite good at- reaching modern audiences that is. Lust, love, guilt and duty
all seems to remain the same over the centuries.

So apparently, fan fiction can be published without being sneered on. I've
seen a pretty bitchin' retelling of some Shakespeare's works from bored
English students -a Jerry Springer Othello, a "gay" 12th Night and a Manga
King Lear. No really. Oh, and a very, very, very funny sex scene [1] written
diligently to Jane Austen's style between Lizzie and Darcy. ("Ooh, husband,
is now the time to tell you how much I ardently admire spending the night
with you?" And all that.) Austen has a "and they got married and lived
happily every after" ending to all her books, so we really don't know what
happens afterwards. But through the role of fanfiction I guess you can
elaborate.


Sian
XxX

P.S: Both those slash Discworld stories were awful. In my lowly opinion,
anyway.
P.P.S: What the hell is Blake 7?

[1] After seeing Colin Firth with wet breeches clinging in the right places,
I can understand why it was written. And well, all that bickering between
the two certainly amounts to a very "ardent" amount of passion to fufil. I
wonder if Austen knew that when she was writing it? Or is that me reading
between the lines, which several slashers seen to find joy in...


"If 12 monkeys-"
"Yes?"
"If 12 monkeys were thrown in the air, what's the probability of them all
landing on their tails?"
Rosencrantz and Guilderstein are Dead, Tom Stoppard.

Jens Murer

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Aug 10, 2002, 5:49:13 PM8/10/02
to

"Sian Hiscock" <Sianie...@btopenworld.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:aj41b2$9e1$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...

> P.P.S: What the hell is Blake 7?

I did not dared asking :o(


David Chapman

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Aug 10, 2002, 7:15:08 PM8/10/02
to
The seas boiled, the skies fell, and Jens Murer said:

> "Arwen Lune" <ar...@meanandevil.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:MPG.17bf801af...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>
>> This is an archieve of LotR fiction that is moderated, ie your
>> story will have to be voted into it by Tolkien fans who write.
>
> Sounds great... fans vote other fans.. do correct and support each
> other to improve further stories?
>
>
> ... I know, there must be TONS of comments on the movie... here my 2
> pence: The ending is great... not like the book, but great anyway...
> Favourite characters would be Gandalf and Merry...

I remember when Dominic Monaghan made his debut in Hetty
Wainthropp Investigates, a wonderful little series about an OAP who
decides to become a PI because she never worked long enough to get
her own government pension. DM played Geoffrey Shawcross, a
homeless teenager she employs as her assistant to stop him turning to
crime. If you ever get the chance to see it, do; it's absolutely great.

> But Loth-Lorién suxx... could cry everytime I see the scenes...
>
> What scenes will be added exactly on the Special Edition?

The www.play.com page for it has full details. I'd cut and paste
the link, but I'm afraid Windows is fucking up on me and won't
let me.

--
"Pack it in, you're acting like kids."

"Well, he started it!"


Jens Murer

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Aug 10, 2002, 7:45:11 PM8/10/02
to

"David Chapman" <evil...@madasafish.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:aj4751$18huq7$1...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de...

> I remember when Dominic Monaghan made his debut in Hetty
> Wainthropp Investigates, a wonderful little series about an OAP who
> decides to become a PI because she never worked long enough to get
> her own government pension. DM played Geoffrey Shawcross, a
> homeless teenager she employs as her assistant to stop him turning to
> crime. If you ever get the chance to see it, do; it's absolutely great.

Uh, sorry, same effect as when I said: 'I'm really a fan of Dana Scully' and
got links to nude pictures of Gillian Anderson. I MEANT Meriadoc. He is the
one of the two 'additional' Hobbits who become Boss of the Shire, isn't he?
He comes very strong ('I have to leave the Shire.' 'I see. Brandyburry
Ferry.' / Holding Perrin after Gandalfs Disappearing / His Recognition when
Frodo leaves the Fellowship) and I love to see, that these two Hobbits can
be more than just sidekicks. I actually HATE Perrins character (Especially
at the Forming of the Fellowship in Rivendell).

> > But Loth-Lorién suxx... could cry everytime I see the scenes...
> >
> > What scenes will be added exactly on the Special Edition?

Additional footage in this extended cut includes:
Further Hobbit footage including a musical number
Frodo and Sam watching the elves going to the 'Undying Land'
While the Hobbits are sleeping, Frodo is woken by Aragorn singing an elvish
tune that foreshadow's his relationship with Arwen
Additional scenes at Rivendell with Aragorn
Additional scenes on the departure of the Fellowship from Rivendell
Additional scenes in the Mines of Moria
Galadriel's imparting of several gifts to the Fellowship as they depart from
Lothlorien

So I saw it all after watching the preview on the 'normal' edition ... and
we're betrying once again and the Bombadil was written off.

Only the lesser of two Failures (I DID mention that Loth-Lorién suxx,
right?)

Greetingz and thx

Chris Johnson

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Aug 10, 2002, 11:12:13 PM8/10/02
to
In article <aj37ss$17tov6$1...@ID-150863.news.dfncis.de>,

"Michael Swarbrick" <spam...@custom-service.co.uk> wrote:
> Katherine F. <katherinef@softhomedotnet>
> wrote in message news:3d551179...@news.iol.ie...
> > Just to prove that it can be done:
> > http://debchan.com/misc/concurrence.html
> > Adult content, in case you couldn't have guessed

> OK, I admit it. I just can't see the difference in quality
> between the above link and the one posted by Warwick.
>
> Both stories steal there characters from another author.
> And both give certain characters a different personality
> than the original. IMO they are both awful.

Ngh. I think I 'get' what's being argued here. I've just skimmed over
two slash fanfics- both using Rincewind, one coupling him with Vetinari
(!) and the other with Greebo (!).

I think the argument here is that the one with Greebo is less of a
complete distortion of the character involved- and indeed, Greebo is no
doubt capable of many things.

There's a problem, though: at least I found it to be a problem. You
don't find _Discworld_ stories featuring Greebo doing such things, even
if he did 'em. He's into cats- female ones- and this is still only
hinted at.

So part of the problem with slash fanfic is that it's not just a
matter of finding ways to twist characters as little as possible to get
them to do naughty things. The mere attempt to do this twists the fabric
of the 'world' even worse than the character- and half the fun of
Discworld is that it's got its own consistency and logic to it.

I confess to getting a big kick out of the revelation of Angua and
Gavin. It made sense, it's believable backstory, he's worthy, 'he's a
big wolf', all of Gaspode's humorous attempts to explain just how much
of a hottie this male wolf really is to Carrot, and so on- fodder for
lots of reading between the lines. But in Discworld, this does not
become a hot Angua sex scene, no matter how exciting that might be. It
becomes an enriching of the complexity between complex characters, it
has consequences, it FITS into the story and into the world, and part of
it is that the world is defined by what you see of it, and what remains
unseen.

I thought the fanfics were awful too, but then I write my own
stories. Maybe they're awful too, but they're themselves.

Oddly, the one genre of fanfic I completely enjoy is MST3King of
other bad fanfics- and only when it uses the MST3K characters, to boot.
Possibly this is because MST3King is strictly about putting forth the
liveliest and most erudite wit possible, and doesn't itself establish a
'world' of characterization?


Chris Johnson

Mary Messall

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Aug 10, 2002, 11:18:15 PM8/10/02
to
Arwen Lune wrote:
> I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
> fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
> writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
> serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...

I have recently been making the case elsewhere that the Aeneid
basically counts as fanfic, set in Homer's universe. And I consider it
a good candidate for greatest literary work of all time.

-Mary

--
{I drank at every vine. / The last was like the first. / I came upon
no wine / So wonderful as thirst.} {"Heaven bless the babe!" they said
"What queer books she must have read!"} -two by Edna St Vincent Millay
http://indagabo.orcon.net.nz/ -> my soapbox and grandstand and gallery

Eric Jarvis

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Aug 11, 2002, 6:59:48 AM8/11/02
to
Sian Hiscock wrote:
>
> Well, there is good fanfiction. I was thinking that Tom Stoppard is just a
> fanboy for writing "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein."
>

oh yes!

thank you...that has made my day

I owe you a beverage of your choice...you don't owe me a keyboard because
I managed to do all my spluttering onto the desk

--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"

phil...@see.signature.uk

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Aug 11, 2002, 7:43:44 AM8/11/02
to
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:59:48 +0100, Eric Jarvis
<use...@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote:

>Sian Hiscock wrote:
>>
>> Well, there is good fanfiction. I was thinking that Tom Stoppard is just a
>> fanboy for writing "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein."
>>
>
>oh yes!
>
>thank you...that has made my day
>
>I owe you a beverage of your choice...you don't owe me a keyboard because
>I managed to do all my spluttering onto the desk

I wrote a couple which are available for public consumption.

www.philippa.me.uk then navigate to the Highlander section and a wee
little tale of hairy beasties called 'Tartan Trouble'. Discworld c/over
with 'Highlander'.

The other isn't up on the web yet, but 'Octarine Leap' c/over with
Quantium Leap can be obtained by request.


Philippa

Philippa, Barbarian houri!

'I was Death! Death on a horse!' - Methos, Highlander
'Dere c'n onlie be whin t'ousand!' - Pterry, CJ

Daibhid Chiennedelh

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Aug 11, 2002, 10:41:31 AM8/11/02
to
>From: "Sian Hiscock" Sianie...@btopenworld.com
>Date: 10/08/02 22:41 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <aj41b2$9e1$1...@knossos.btinternet.com>

>
>Well, there is good fanfiction. I was thinking that Tom Stoppard is just a
>fanboy for writing "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein."

LOL! You're right, it is fanfic. It even suffers from the main problem of all
fanfic, that you've no idea what's going on if you're not familiar with the
original.

>Which is, for those of
>you that DIDN'T study it for English (it's a teacher's fave, you know)
>it's Hamlet from the eyes of two very minor characters, Stoppard inventing a
>sub-plot that sits rather strangely around the "my lords" and "prithees" of
>Shakespearian prose poetry.

Well, that's the point, innit? These two minimal-motivation figures have
absolutely no idea what's going on or why the King of England is to execute
them.

>Milton gave Satan a voice in "Paradise Lost," Jean Rhys rewrites "Wide
>Sargasso Sea" from the female view- and I have vague recollections of an
>author re-doing Rebecca.

There was a sequel-by-another-hand IRC.

>P.P.S: What the hell is Blake 7?

A seventies science fiction series by Terry "I created the Daleks, you know"
Nation. It was repeated not that long ago.
--
Dave
EU SF&FSoc http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
When one is tired of London, one is tired of being overcharged, overcrowded,
insulted, rushed and compelled to make 2 hour journeys that anywhere else would
take 15 minutes. -Diane L on afp.

Jens Murer

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Aug 11, 2002, 11:08:59 AM8/11/02
to
"Daibhid Chiennedelh" <daibhidc...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20020811104131...@mb-fm.aol.com...

> It was repeated not that long ago.

Isn't it fantastic, how HUGE the Web is? There are even Places were there is
no english/american/indish/russian... TV ;o))

Eric Jarvis

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Aug 11, 2002, 11:42:41 AM8/11/02
to
Jens Murer wrote:
> "Daibhid Chiennedelh" <daibhidc...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:20020811104131...@mb-fm.aol.com...
>
> > It was repeated not that long ago.
>
> Isn't it fantastic, how HUGE the Web is? There are even Places were there is
> no english/american/indish/russian... TV ;o))
>

true

but there really are very few afpers in Surrey

Paul E. Jamison

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Aug 11, 2002, 3:26:52 PM8/11/02
to
phil...@see.signature.uk wrote:

>
> I wrote a couple which are available for public consumption.
>
> www.philippa.me.uk then navigate to the Highlander section and a wee
> little tale of hairy beasties called 'Tartan Trouble'. Discworld c/over
> with 'Highlander'.
>
> The other isn't up on the web yet, but 'Octarine Leap' c/over with
> Quantium Leap can be obtained by request.
>

Right, this brings up something I haven't had the nerve to ask.
I know Terry doesn't want DW fan fiction here, for excellent
reasons, but can we mention it if we've done it and it's online
someplace else? I ask because I wrote a Discworld/"Due South"
crossover some time back, and I'd love feedback from DW folk,
but have been afraid to say anything here.

(And it's not slash, I assure you.)

Paul E. Jamison

--

"There's more pressure on a vet to get it right.
People say 'It was God's will' when Granny dies,
but they get *angry* when they lose a cow."
- Terry Pratchett


Andrew Nevill

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Aug 11, 2002, 2:23:50 PM8/11/02
to
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:43:44 +0100, phil...@see.signature.uk wrote:

>
>I wrote a couple which are available for public consumption.
>

[snip]


>
>The other isn't up on the web yet, but 'Octarine Leap' c/over with
>Quantium Leap can be obtained by request.

You wrote that!!!

That's one of my favourite fan fics of all time. I used to really be into
Quantum Leap. I've a copy of the "Through the Imaging Chamber" fanzine it
was published in.

Thank you Philippa for many hours of pleasure. I re-read often and it always
makes me chcukle, expecially the notes.

Will have to read the Higlander one as well.

Andrew Nevill B.F. D.W. FdW. Reply address: (ane...@btopenworld.com)
Spooky's AFPWorshipper, Sarah (Nanny Ogg) & Charissa/Perdita's AFPfiance.
Pia's AFBBro. Nattie's AFPSadistic Bast**d. You cannot value friends as
pennies, nor can you replace them as easily (Spooky in email, Aug 2001.)


Julia Jones

unread,
Aug 11, 2002, 3:00:16 PM8/11/02
to
In article <20020811104131...@mb-fm.aol.com>, Daibhid
Chiennedelh <daibhidc...@aol.com> writes
>>From: "Sian Hiscock" Sianie...@btopenworld.com

>
>>P.P.S: What the hell is Blake 7?

Would the jury note that Sian asked, I am not going into fangirl mode
without provocation...


>
>A seventies science fiction series by Terry "I created the Daleks, you know"
>Nation. It was repeated not that long ago.

No it wasn't. The first series of four was repeated. At a different time
every week, often skipping a week, and not showing the cliffhanger final
episode until a mob of us phoned up and said words to the effect of "Oi,
there are *thirteen* episodes per series, not twelve" at which point
they tried to pretend that they hadn't forgotten really, in spite of
what the announcer had said. And then they refused to repeat the other
three series, claiming that it hadn't got good enough ratings, even
though with that sort of treatment it had still got better ratings than
some of its trumpeted showpiece productions. Bastards.

Bitter? me?

Anyway, to answer the original question, Blake's 7 was an adult (in the
sense of not being aimed at children rather than in the sense of smut)
sf show produced by the BBC a few years before they decided that sf was
watched only by children and people with the mental age of children,
which means it's older than Sian. It started as fairly hard-edged
political drama, although it went more for the action-adventure in the
last two series. Described as "Robin Hood leading the Dirty Dozen in
space", although I suspect that description may not be of much use to
those not old enough to have seen it the first time round. Basic summary
can be found below, cut-n-paste from the first time someone provided an
opportunity for me to proselytise on afp.

It's a bloody good piece of political drama, and what it has to say
about trying to draw the line between freedom fighter and terrorist is
just as relevant today as when it was made. It will be available on DVD
later in the year <does happy dance>.

It did ongoing story arcs and was in the habit of killing off major
characters for plot reasons rather than because the actor wanted to
leave or had asked for a pay raise. Sometimes mid-series. It did not
necessarily resuscitate them. It had a grim ending. It did this 25 years
ago.

The nearest current comparison is Farscape, which was partly inspired by
B7. Babylon 5 was also inspired by B7. To quote one J. Michael
Straczynski, "Man, that show was so fucking awesome!" Which is one
reason why there's a con next year to celebrate the 25th anniversary of
B7 and the tenth anniversary of B5, see sig for details (bet you all
thought you'd seen the last of that sig now I'm using the suespammers
address...).


B7 summary, some spoilers including the biggie:

General plot is that Roj Blake discovers that he's living in a
totalitarian state which drugs its population to keep them under
control, that he used to lead a dissident party, witnesses a massacre of
a revived version of the party, is picked up by the security forces and
framed on a charge of raping children as a way to avoid making him into
a martyr, and deported to a penal planet. And that's just the first
episode.

Having led a failed mutiny on the transport ship, he and two of his
fellow mutineers are used as guinea pigs when a derelict spaceship's
defences kill or drive insane the first three members of the prison ship
crew to board it with a view to claiming salvage. They survive, and
manage to get away with the ship, which is alien and streets ahead of
any technology possessed by the Federation (that's the Terran
Federation, not the United Federation of Planets). They, along with a
few more of the convicts rescued from the penal planet, then proceed to
create mayhem in the cause of freedom. Blake has a minor problem in that
some of his recruits are rather reluctant. As in, they would much rather
run off with the ship and find interesting new ways to spend the
contents of its treasure room.

They have various ups and downs along the way, including killing a major
character mid-season for the sake of the plot, Blake and another of the
crew disappearing, the ship getting destroyed, another lead character
killed, and a final episode crafted by the writer to ensure that
*nobody* who saw it would ever forget it. Oh, and they never do defeat
the totalitarian government.

Described by its creator as Robin Hood leading the Dirty Dozen in space.

It was initially accused of being a Star Trek clone, but something
farther from ST would be difficult to find. Very dark, ambiguous about
good and evil, and notorious for ending with the slow-motion, on-screen
deaths of the outlaws.

Attractions are cracking good plots, decent acting, meaty roles for the
female characters, and several characters generally described as "sex
appeal on legs". Of both sexes.
--
Julia Jones
Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent
Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5
http://www.smof.com/redemption

The Stainless Steel Cat

unread,
Aug 11, 2002, 3:01:00 PM8/11/02
to
In article <aj41r2$tqk$02$1...@news.t-online.com>,
"Jens Murer" <dae...@stadtwache.net> wrote:

Hah!

Imagine for a start, Star Trek's mirror image. Now wipe all thoughts of
Spock in a beard and everyone else in skimpier costumes.

The Federation is evil. It's citizens are pacified by drugs. Where that
doesn't work, secret police infiltrate groups of rebels to betray and kill
them.

Our hero, Blake, is a one time rebel whose memory was wiped - killing him
would have created a martyr - who has now regained that memory. He is
framed for child abuse and sent to a penal planet - while his lawyer, who
has begun to suspect something fishy is going on, is brutally killed
together with his wife.

Skipping the detail of the rest of the first couple of episodes, Blake ends
up in control of a powerful alien ship and he blackmails a gang of
criminals to join him in fighting the Federation;

Jenna: a smuggler, Gan: a simple minded thug turned gentle by a brain
implant, Villa: a burglar, thief and inveterate coward and Avon: an
arrogant, selfish, ruthless computer fraudster with a nice taste in leather
gear.

For two series Blake led this crew, regularly failing to make any impact on
the Federation and in fact getting Gan killed in a bungled attempt to
destroy the Federation's control centre. When they succed in this goal, not
only do they cripple the Federation, they leave the Galaxy open to alien
invasion! Blake then disappears for the following two series.

In the final episode Blake reappears, only for all the "heroes" to be
gunned down by the Federation.

Basically a cynical, downbeat series with flashes of sardonic humour.

Cat.
--
La Rustimuna ^Stalkato
stee...@demon.co.uk

gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukdeletethis

unread,
Aug 11, 2002, 3:47:12 PM8/11/02
to
Hi there,

On 11 Aug 2002 14:41:31 GMT, daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid
Chiennedelh) wrote:

>>Well, there is good fanfiction. I was thinking that Tom Stoppard is just a
>>fanboy for writing "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein."
>
>LOL! You're right, it is fanfic. It even suffers from the main problem of all
>fanfic, that you've no idea what's going on if you're not familiar with the
>original.

I have to disagree, I discovered R&GaD before my tastes had "matured"
enough to find Hamlet interesting.

The wordplay and the interaction made it plenty enjoyable enough even
without knowing the (if I can dare refer to WS's work as this!)
backstory.

Cheers,
Graham.

Lena Williams

unread,
Aug 11, 2002, 3:59:24 PM8/11/02
to
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:01:00 +0100, The Stainless Steel Cat
<stee...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>"Sian Hiscock" <Sianie...@btopenworld.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>news:aj41b2$9e1$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
>>
>>> P.P.S: What the hell is Blake 7?

>Basically a cynical, downbeat series with flashes of sardonic humour.

And absolutely, unbelievably, fantastically _good_. Despite dodgy sets
and dodgier costumes. (Avon in red leather and thigh boots, anybody?)

Anybody know when the DVDs are due out?

Lena

PS. I'd say 'good sigmonster' but half my sig quotes are from B7. <g>
--
http://www.anejo.nu \\ http://derry.anejo.nu
http://www.livejournal.com/~anejo
"Blake is sitting up in a tree. Travis is sitting up in another tree.
Unless they're planning to throw nuts at one another, I don't see much of
a fight developing before it gets light." - Avon, Blakes 7

Julia Jones

unread,
Aug 11, 2002, 4:58:25 PM8/11/02
to
In article <slrnaldhm...@timerotor.foxbasealpha.co.uk>, Lena
Williams <le...@anejo.freeserve.co.uk> writes

>Anybody know when the DVDs are due out?

Probably around the end of the year. Current info at the hermit website:

Blake's 7 - on DVD
There will be two sets of B7 DVDs, a set produced by BFS for the North
American Market in NTSC format (not region locked). And a PAL set
produced for the European and Australian Market by Fabulous Films.
The Blake's 7 copyright holders have a contact deal with regard to
releasing Blake's 7 on DVD. Source Avon club - 12-1-02


The BFS (NTSC) set
The current production schedule calls for a collection set (complete)
containing 10 discs of which the first 8 will have 5 episodes each and
the last 2 will have 6 each. They are all slated to release on the same
day currently set for January 7, 2003.
They will be available as 10 individual DVDs or as a full set.

We know what the extras will be and will provide the information as soon
as it may be released. (17 July 2002)

These will not be region coded.


The Fabulous Films (PAL) set
Message from Fabulous Films: Just admiring your site and thought I would
let you know the latest info on the B7 DVD'S. I am putting together the
releases for Fabulous Films at the moment. It is antcicpated the first
will be in the shops by the end of this year. They will be remastered
and will be packed with goodies. We have been putting this together for
the last 12months and it is set to be a must for all B7 fans. I will
keep you posted as and when things develop.
We don't yet know the release date. We know what the extras will be and
will provide the information as soon as it may be released.

Diane L.

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Aug 11, 2002, 6:08:45 PM8/11/02
to

"Paul E. Jamison" <paul...@infi.net> wrote in message
news:3D56BA7B...@infi.net...

> Right, this brings up something I haven't had the nerve to ask.
> I know Terry doesn't want DW fan fiction here, for excellent
> reasons, but can we mention it if we've done it and it's online
> someplace else? I ask because I wrote a Discworld/"Due South"
> crossover some time back, and I'd love feedback from DW folk,
> but have been afraid to say anything here.

I don't think there's any problem with you saying "My DW story
is up at <URL>, anyone who wants to read it can go there."
Personally, I'd love to read a DW/DS crossover. If it's not on
the web, is there any chance of your emailing it?

Diane L.


Simon Waldman

unread,
Aug 11, 2002, 6:01:48 PM8/11/02
to
Sian Hiscock wrote:
> Well, there is good fanfiction. I was thinking that Tom Stoppard is just a
> fanboy for writing "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein." Which is, for those of
> you that DIDN'T study it for English (it's a teacher's fave, you know)
> it's Hamlet from the eyes of two very minor characters, Stoppard inventing a
> sub-plot that sits rather strangely around the "my lords" and "prithees" of
> Shakespearian prose poetry.

With, to my mind at least, considerable satire of various theatrical
devices (play within a play within a play anyone?), a look at the
"limbo" state of these characters, and, best of all, the chance to shout
"FIRE" in a crowded theatre =8-)

--
"We shall ask...the alliance to avoid using [depleted uranium
ammunition] until we are certain it is not dangerous"
- Italian Defence Minister Sergio Mattarella
---------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Waldman, England email: swal...@firecloud.org.uk
http://www.firecloud.org.uk/simon
---------------------------------------------------------------

Paul E. Jamison

unread,
Aug 12, 2002, 12:20:20 AM8/12/02
to
Diane L. wrote:

Okay, I'll take the plunge.

It's at my personal website - in four parts. It turned out to be a bit
long. The URL for for my DS fan fiction is

http://www.geocities.com/pauljmsn/Due_South_fanfic.html

The story is titled "Due Rimward". Feel free to read and comment.

Richard Bos

unread,
Aug 12, 2002, 6:34:12 AM8/12/02
to
Mary Messall <mmes...@ups.edu> wrote:

> Arwen Lune wrote:
> > I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
> > fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
> > writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
> > serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...
>
> I have recently been making the case elsewhere that the Aeneid
> basically counts as fanfic, set in Homer's universe.

Erm, no. Can't be, because it wasn't Homer's universe to begin with.
Both Homer and Vergilius wrote down literary versions of The Legends,
not completely new works made up out of whole cloth.
You'd have had a point if Homer had made up the Trojan war and the
histories of the Greek heroes after the war ended, but he didn't. The
story existed before either Homer or Vergilius; all(!) they did was
write down different portions of it.

> And I consider it a good candidate for greatest literary work of all time.

Beg to differ. One of the top works, yes, but the greatest... not since
Chaucer lived. Or Milton, or Swift. Or even the author of Gawain ATGK.

Richard

Mary Messall

unread,
Aug 12, 2002, 2:38:15 PM8/12/02
to
Richard Bos wrote:
> Mary Messall <mmes...@ups.edu> wrote:
> > Arwen Lune wrote:
> > > I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
> > > fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
> > > writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
> > > serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...
> > I have recently been making the case elsewhere that the Aeneid
> > basically counts as fanfic, set in Homer's universe.
> Erm, no. Can't be, because it wasn't Homer's universe to begin with.
> Both Homer and Vergilius wrote down literary versions of The Legends,
> not completely new works made up out of whole cloth.

The characters, even the gods, get specific personalities in Homer, and
retain them in Vergil. Do you really think that had the Iliad not been
written, the Aeneid would have been? Or if it were, would have been at
all the same? Homer himself was a legend, and Vergil had him in mind.

> > And I consider it a good candidate for greatest literary work of all time.
> Beg to differ. One of the top works, yes, but the greatest... not since
> Chaucer lived. Or Milton, or Swift. Or even the author of Gawain ATGK.

I consider Milton a good candidate as well--am reading Paradise Lost at
the moment. Chaucer and Swift both had brilliant senses of humor, but
the characterizations seem shallow to me. Haven't read Sir Gawain the
the Green Knight... Sell it to me. What do you like about it?

CCA

unread,
Aug 12, 2002, 4:31:03 PM8/12/02
to
Vivek Dasmohapatra (>vi...@etla.org) wrote

>The real question, though, was "Slash: Why, god? Why?"

Because there are some seriously querky people out there.
I was pointed in the direction of an Angel/Buffy etc slashfic and hetfic
website a while ago. (Called Eterniata - can't remember the full URL but
googling the name is usually enough) It was okay, but not exactly tantalising.
I could probably have thought of better stuff in my head ... um, if I wanted
to, that is. Which I don't. Not at *all*, you hear? Not even once.
<g>
CCA:)

CCA

unread,
Aug 12, 2002, 4:37:31 PM8/12/02
to
Sian Hiscock (>Sianie...@btopenworld.com) wrote

> i guess I will reiterate my point MALE
>SLASH, WRITTEN BY WOMEN: Why Gods, WHY??? Please explain the eroticism of
>it, because it's as erotic as a dead cod to me.

Yes, that's what I found too. That's why I was disappointed in the Angel/Buffy
slash site - too much male-male slash, which doesn't interest me particularly,
and not enough male-female (or het), which might have been more interesting.
But there's no accounting for taste, is there?
CCA:)

Diane L.

unread,
Aug 12, 2002, 5:34:57 PM8/12/02
to

"CCA" <annew2...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020812163731...@mb-mb.aol.com...

> That's why I was disappointed in the Angel/Buffy
> slash site - too much male-male slash, which doesn't interest me
particularly,
> and not enough male-female (or het), which might have been more
interesting.
> But there's no accounting for taste, is there?

Well, technically, slash *is* either f/f or m/m (or occasionally more
esoteric
combinations). If it's m/f it's not slash, it's het.

Diane L.


Jens Murer

unread,
Aug 12, 2002, 5:47:02 PM8/12/02
to
"Diane L." <di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:102918809...@doris.uk.clara.net...

> Well, technically, slash *is* either f/f or m/m (or occasionally more
> esoteric
> combinations). If it's m/f it's not slash, it's het.

That whole slash-thing is more complicated I thought... are there any exact
definitions for all this fanfic-terms?

Julia Jones

unread,
Aug 12, 2002, 6:35:50 PM8/12/02
to
In article <102918809...@doris.uk.clara.net>, Diane L.
<di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk> writes
Tell that to the Sunday Times, which was not as sneering as I expected
to be in the article on fanfic last week, but which thought that slash
meant "two of the characters, preferably from different universes, have
hot monkey love". Duh.

Jens Murer

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 3:44:05 AM8/13/02
to
"Julia Jones" <jaj...@suespammers.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:CBebErOG...@jajones.demon.co.uk...

> In article <102918809...@doris.uk.clara.net>, Diane L.

> Tell that to the Sunday Times, which was not as sneering as I expected


> to be in the article on fanfic last week, but which thought that slash
> meant "two of the characters, preferably from different universes, have
> hot monkey love". Duh.

Oh, so THAT's what it's all about ;o)

- jens / dae

*~*~*
http://www.llamedos.de


Richard Bos

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 7:24:33 AM8/13/02
to
Mary Messall <mmes...@ups.edu> wrote:

> Richard Bos wrote:
> > Mary Messall <mmes...@ups.edu> wrote:
> > > Arwen Lune wrote:
> > > > I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
> > > > fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
> > > > writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
> > > > serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...
> > > I have recently been making the case elsewhere that the Aeneid
> > > basically counts as fanfic, set in Homer's universe.
> > Erm, no. Can't be, because it wasn't Homer's universe to begin with.
> > Both Homer and Vergilius wrote down literary versions of The Legends,
> > not completely new works made up out of whole cloth.
>
> The characters, even the gods, get specific personalities in Homer, and
> retain them in Vergil.

Well, no; those characters, at least the major ones, _had_
personalities. Homeros is the greatest of the writers to put those
characters into a solid form, and set them down in a story, but
Aphrodite was a flirt even before Homeros wrote about her, and Ares was
a surly bastard before the Iliad. They had to be - it's in their nature.
You can't be a Goddess of Love without being flirtatious, or a Greek War
Hero without being mighty in arms and possibly a bit rash.

> Do you really think that had the Iliad not been
> written, the Aeneid would have been? Or if it were, would have been at
> all the same? Homer himself was a legend, and Vergil had him in mind.

That much is true. But note that Vergilius didn't intend to write a side
note to Homeros' story, or, strictly speaking, a third episode - what he
specifically intended to do was to write a work that would do for Rome
what Homeros' work had done for Greece. To do this, he got a lot of
inspiration from Homeros, and even used some of his characters, but
those characters were, after all, well established in mythology.

In fact, I would say that Vergilius is to Homeros as Tolkien is to the
writers of the Eddas: an epigone, not "merely" a fan writer. He built on
Homeros' tradition, but he created a work all his own. Even the scenes
in Troy are not, really, derivative.

(Oh, btw: Vergil is not a misspelling. Virgil is. It may be one of the
most common misspellings in the English language (given that even
they're/their/there are usually spelled correctly), but it is one even
so. After all, the man was called Publius V_e_rgilius Maro, not
Virgilius. And he was born in the Andes. )

> > > And I consider it a good candidate for greatest literary work of all time.
> > Beg to differ. One of the top works, yes, but the greatest... not since
> > Chaucer lived. Or Milton, or Swift. Or even the author of Gawain ATGK.
>
> I consider Milton a good candidate as well--am reading Paradise Lost at
> the moment. Chaucer and Swift both had brilliant senses of humor, but
> the characterizations seem shallow to me.

Swift, yes, because he focuses on plot much more than on
characterisation - his characters were well known to his intended
readers, because they were themselves.

As for Chaucer, his characters are miniatures, not full-length
portraits. They're not shallow so much as not seen from a different
point of view. He doesn't describe individual personalities so much as
groups and societies - even in something like his portrait, and
prologue, of the Wife of Bath, he isn't so much interested in the
internal musings of his characters as in their relations to their
environments and their fellow humans.
To use a metaphor, he doesn't do paintings in oil of Grand Characters in
a Pensive Pose, he draws sketches of them in motion. In a way, this is
in fact much less shallow than a rumination on their innermost thoughts,
because it is more significant to how human society works.

> Haven't read Sir Gawain the
> the Green Knight... Sell it to me. What do you like about it?

Oh, so many things...

To begin with, the atmosphere is great. This author (whom I can't refer
to by name, because he never gives one) really believes in his elfs and
magicians and supernatural creatures and goings-on; and at the same
time, he is a devout Christian. Morgana exists, but she isn't a demi-
goddess trying to gain control over Britain; rather, she is a tool of
the Devil, trying to test the court of this most Christian of Kings,
Arthur, and the devotion of his knights. And all of this isn't a made-up
backdrop; the author really believes in all this, and his honesty makes
him tell his tale all the more believably.
Second, it is simply a rollicking good knight story. Adventures,
battles, hunts, dalliance between virtuous knights and seductive ladies,
high courts and noble knights, weird creatures, quests and festivities,
it's all there. And it's really well told; told in the tradition of
those days, in a way that wouldn't work well for a modern novel, but
told with exquisite mastership that makes this now antiquiated form work
well even today.
Then, too, it gives a fascinating insight into a world which is almost
as alien as it can be while still being Western European. This shows not
only in the descriptions of the customs of the age, and even more so in
the silent assumptions of what does not need to be described because it
is obvious, because that's just how things were done, back then; it is
also manifest in the very structure of the poem, in the language used,
the alliteration and the unusual form, all of which demonstrate that in
those days poetry was not quite what it is now.
Allied to this is the description of the character of Gawain. In his
dealings with other people, especially with his young hostess, the
description of what he does, but mainly of why he does it, what he
thinks about it, and what the author considered virtue and vice in his
thoughts and behaviour, not only gives a well-wrought picture of a great
and famous knight of the period, but at the same time a good picture of
the knight of that period in general.

Add to this the fact that he, with high probability, was also the author
of a pearl like Pearl, and I think it cannot be disputed that this
anonymus was one of the great authors in the history of English.

And, of course, the fact that I have finally managed to read it in the
original Middle-English - a rather more Northern and less modern, quite
a bit harder Middle-English than Chaucer's, even though it is about
contemporary - is a point greatly in its favour, because it is very good
for my ego <g>.

Richard

Jonathan Ellis

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 11:28:06 AM8/13/02
to

Richard Bos wrote in message <3d58d6dd....@news.tiscali.nl>...

>(Oh, btw: Vergil is not a misspelling. Virgil is. It may be one of the
> most common misspellings in the English language (given that even
> they're/their/there are usually spelled correctly), but it is one even
> so. After all, the man was called Publius V_e_rgilius Maro, not
> Virgilius. And he was born in the Andes. )


I somehow doubt the latter, if by "the Andes" you mean the range of
mountains that runs down South America - since Rome had no knowledge
that that part of the world even *existed*, at the time. Is there
another range of mountains with that name, in territory that was known
to Rome?

Jonathan.

Peter Ellis

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 11:43:40 AM8/13/02
to

A trivial Google search finds that he was born in or around Andes. Andes
being a small village near Mantua, in northern Italy (then part of cisalpine
Gaul)

Peter

Mary Messall

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 12:46:53 PM8/13/02
to
Richard Bos wrote:
> Mary Messall <mmes...@ups.edu> wrote:
> > The characters, even the gods, get specific personalities in Homer, and
> > retain them in Vergil.
> Well, no; those characters, at least the major ones, _had_
> personalities. Homeros is the greatest of the writers to put those
> characters into a solid form, and set them down in a story, but
> Aphrodite was a flirt even before Homeros wrote about her, and Ares was
> a surly bastard before the Iliad. They had to be - it's in their nature.
> You can't be a Goddess of Love without being flirtatious, or a Greek War
> Hero without being mighty in arms and possibly a bit rash.

<exasperated>

Look, Plato wanted to exclude poets from his Republic on the grounds
that works like the Iliad were impious and disrespectful to the gods,
because they were so familiar, and treated them like men. Homer makes
them, not abstractions, but people. We don't know how close the
personalities he gave them may be to older stories, since there aren't
really any older stories with which to compare, but simply by virtue of
being written down they became more consistent in the Iliad, at the
very least. I don't think this is controversial, and I don't think I'm
the first person to observe that the Aeneid is written in conscious
imitation of the Iliad.

> (Oh, btw: Vergil is not a misspelling. Virgil is. It may be one of the
> most common misspellings in the English language (given that even
> they're/their/there are usually spelled correctly), but it is one even
> so. After all, the man was called Publius V_e_rgilius Maro, not
> Virgilius. And he was born in the Andes. )

His name is Vergilius in Latin, Virgil in English, and I managed to
conflate the two unconsciously or something--I wasn't being pedantic,
just careless.

[Sir Gawain and the Green Knight]


> And, of course, the fact that I have finally managed to read it in the
> original Middle-English - a rather more Northern and less modern, quite
> a bit harder Middle-English than Chaucer's, even though it is about
> contemporary - is a point greatly in its favour, because it is very good
> for my ego <g>.

It's one of those things that I'm sure I'll inevitably read eventually,
but I'm likely to read it much sooner after that glowing review... I
wonder what the critics said when it first came out?

The Stainless Steel Cat

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 1:39:30 PM8/13/02
to
>Sian Hiscock (>Sianie...@btopenworld.com) wrote
>
>> i guess I will reiterate my point MALE
>>SLASH, WRITTEN BY WOMEN: Why Gods, WHY??? Please explain the eroticism of
>>it, because it's as erotic as a dead cod to me.

Pwoah! Necropisceaphilia, you can't beat it!

(That'd be sadonecropisceaphilia...)

Katherine F.

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 4:19:45 PM8/13/02
to
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:47:02 +0200, "Jens Murer"
<dae...@stadtwache.net> typed into his/her/its keyboard the following:

>"Diane L." <di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:102918809...@doris.uk.clara.net...
>
>> Well, technically, slash *is* either f/f or m/m (or occasionally more
>> esoteric
>> combinations). If it's m/f it's not slash, it's het.
>
>That whole slash-thing is more complicated I thought... are there any exact
>definitions for all this fanfic-terms?

Most of them are slangy, so their definitions vary widely
across fandoms and from person to person. But Ivy Blossom has a pretty
good glossary, with mostly general fanfic definitions and a few
specific to Harry Potter fandom:
http://ivy.veela-inc.net/glossary.html

I used to have one on my website once upon a time. Back when I
had a website... ah, them was the days.

--
Katherine F. replace "dot" with "." http://puritybrown.diaryland.com/
'"The movie could've been so much gayer with biting."'

Eric Jarvis

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 4:15:36 PM8/13/02
to
Mary Messall wrote:

> Richard Bos wrote:
> >
> [Sir Gawain and the Green Knight]
> > And, of course, the fact that I have finally managed to read it in the
> > original Middle-English - a rather more Northern and less modern, quite
> > a bit harder Middle-English than Chaucer's, even though it is about
> > contemporary - is a point greatly in its favour, because it is very good
> > for my ego <g>.
>
> It's one of those things that I'm sure I'll inevitably read eventually,
> but I'm likely to read it much sooner after that glowing review... I
> wonder what the critics said when it first came out?
>

"Forsooth Sire, dost thou truly intenned to make riward for reeding thisse
buke and commenting thereupon? Truly this is monie for olde rope." [1]

perhaps?

[1] interesting effects you can get by resetting the year on the
spillchucker [2]

[2] if only...but it would be a nice idea

CCA

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 4:49:19 PM8/13/02
to
Diane L (>di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk) wrote

>If you
>can't for a minute even think of Kirk and Spock getting together, fair
>enough. Personally, I'm more of a Garak/Bashir fan.

Oh my God! There's slash about Bashir and Garak? <makes
not-liking-the-thought-of-it face> I used to fancy him a few years ago.
Bashir, obviously, not Garak.

>I've read some HP fanfic, but never really delved into the slashy stuff.
>It's partly the whole teacher/student thing (I'm a teacher, and it's just
>*wrong* IMO),

That's what I thought, too. Slash about Star Trek and the like is one thing,
but Harry Potter involves *children*, and involving child characters in that
sort of stuff is just not on IMO.
CCA:)

CCA

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 5:00:04 PM8/13/02
to
Warwick (>war...@lspace.org) wrote

>I stuck the words dicsworld and slash into google.

Dicsworld?
I believe you owe me a new keyboard for that typo <g>
CCA:)

Daibhid Chiennedelh

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 5:00:40 PM8/13/02
to
>From: annew2...@aol.com (CCA)
>Date: 13/08/02 21:49 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020813164919...@mb-cr.aol.com>

>
>Diane L (>di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk) wrote
>
>>If you
>>can't for a minute even think of Kirk and Spock getting together, fair
>>enough. Personally, I'm more of a Garak/Bashir fan.
>
>Oh my God! There's slash about Bashir and Garak? <makes
>not-liking-the-thought-of-it face> I used to fancy him a few years ago.
>Bashir, obviously, not Garak.

To be honest, that was one of only two situations where even *I* could see a
subtext. The other being Smallville. (I assume there *is* Clark/Lex slash, BTW?
I really can't imagine there not being...)

>>I've read some HP fanfic, but never really delved into the slashy stuff.
>>It's partly the whole teacher/student thing (I'm a teacher, and it's just
>>*wrong* IMO),
>
>That's what I thought, too. Slash about Star Trek and the like is one thing,
>but Harry Potter involves *children*, and involving child characters in that
>sort of stuff is just not on IMO.

The only HP slash stories I've seen anything about specify that they're set a
*long* time after the books.
--
Dave
EU SF&FSoc http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
When one is tired of London, one is tired of being overcharged, overcrowded,
insulted, rushed and compelled to make 2 hour journeys that anywhere else would
take 15 minutes. -Diane L on afp.

CCA

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 5:11:29 PM8/13/02
to
Sian Hiscock (>Sianie...@btopenworld.com) wrote

>Well, there is good fanfiction. I was thinking that Tom Stoppard is just a


>fanboy for writing "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein." Which is, for those of
>you that DIDN'T study it for English (it's a teacher's fave, you know)
>it's Hamlet from the eyes of two very minor characters

That reminds me of a book I heard of called something like 'The Wide Sargasso
Sea' by (I think) Jean Rhys, which is like the story of the demented first wife
of Mr Rochester from Charlotte Bronte's 'Jane Eyre', before she married him.
And there's the opera 'The Marriage of Figaro' which uses characters from 'The
Barber of Seville' - these are by different composers too. (Neither of which I
can remember off the cuff unfortunately)
If you look at it that way, you could say that fanfiction's been going on for
years.
CCA:)

Katherine F.

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 5:48:20 PM8/13/02
to
On 13 Aug 2002 21:00:40 GMT, daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid
Chiennedelh) typed into his/her/its keyboard the following:

>>From: annew2...@aol.com (CCA)
>>Date: 13/08/02 21:49 GMT Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <20020813164919...@mb-cr.aol.com>
>>
>>Diane L (>di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk) wrote
>>
>>>If you
>>>can't for a minute even think of Kirk and Spock getting together, fair
>>>enough. Personally, I'm more of a Garak/Bashir fan.
>>
>>Oh my God! There's slash about Bashir and Garak? <makes
>>not-liking-the-thought-of-it face> I used to fancy him a few years ago.
>>Bashir, obviously, not Garak.
>
>To be honest, that was one of only two situations where even *I* could see a
>subtext. The other being Smallville. (I assume there *is* Clark/Lex slash, BTW?
>I really can't imagine there not being...)

Boy, is there *ever* Clark/Lex slash. There is more Clark/Lex
slash than you could shake a stick at. Clark/Lex is the Shiny Thing
that all the slashers (well, a lot of American ones, anyway) have been
running to grab at lately. Which is annoying, because I don't have a
TV, so even though my favourite authors are writing stories for SV,
which I can read and appreciate on a certain level, I don't get the
references to canon. Very annoying.

>>>I've read some HP fanfic, but never really delved into the slashy stuff.
>>>It's partly the whole teacher/student thing (I'm a teacher, and it's just
>>>*wrong* IMO),
>>
>>That's what I thought, too. Slash about Star Trek and the like is one thing,
>>but Harry Potter involves *children*, and involving child characters in that
>>sort of stuff is just not on IMO.
>
>The only HP slash stories I've seen anything about specify that they're set a
>*long* time after the books.

Either that, or they deal with characters who are adults in
the books.

Jonathan Ellis

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 6:16:52 PM8/13/02
to

CCA wrote in message <20020813171129...@mb-cr.aol.com>...

>And there's the opera 'The Marriage of Figaro' which uses characters
from 'The
>Barber of Seville' - these are by different composers too. (Neither of
which I
>can remember off the cuff unfortunately)

Mozart ("Marriage of Figaro") and Rossini ("Barber of Seville").

However, both works are based on *plays* by the same playwright -
Pierre Beaumarchais. So that doesn't really count under the heading of
fanfic by either of them. "The Barber of Seville" and "The Marriage of
Figaro" are in fact the first two in a series of three plays - I have
not yet heard of an operatic conversion of the third.

Interestingly enough, "The Marriage of Figaro" is set several years
*after* the events of "The Barber of Seville", but the well-known
operatic versions of the two operas were composed the other way round,
Mozart's "sequel" before Rossini's "prequel": and the same characters
are sung by different vocal ranges. (Count Almaviva = baritone in
"Marriage", tenor in "Barber": Don Basilio = tenor in "Marriage", bass
in "Barber": and there are a few other discrepancies.) This is because
Mozart wrote "The Marriage of Figaro", not as a standalone opera in its
own right, but as a sequel to an EARLIER operatic version of "The Barber
of Seville" - composed by Giovanni Paisiello. [1] Mozart used the same
voices as Paisiello had used, for those characters who appear in both
plays (and thus both operas) - although Rossini decided to use different
voices when he wrote his own version of "The Barber".

Jonathan.

[1] (Paisiello was still alive at the time Rossini published his own
rival version of "The Barber", and organised a clique to disrupt the
first performance - a large contingent of the audience were specifically
there with instructions to boo, whistle, hiss, throw things and
generally disrupt the concentration of the performers and orchestra, and
several stagehands had been bribed to sabotage the props and scenery:
the result was a complete catalogue of operatic disasters, including a
guitar string breaking, several doors falling off their hinges, and a
live cat (not part of the opera, of course) relieving itself on the
stage... The *second* night of performance, however, was a huge success:
and when Paisiello's own version of "The Barber" was re-produced in a
different theatre in direct competition to Rossini's version, it was
itself booed off the stage.)


Richard Eney

unread,
Aug 13, 2002, 9:17:17 PM8/13/02
to
In article <3D56DEC...@firecloud.org.uk>,

Simon Waldman <swaldman-dated-1...@firecloud.org.uk> wrote:
>Sian Hiscock wrote:
>> Well, there is good fanfiction. I was thinking that Tom Stoppard is just a
>> fanboy for writing "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein." Which is, for those of
>> you that DIDN'T study it for English (it's a teacher's fave, you know)
>> it's Hamlet from the eyes of two very minor characters, Stoppard inventing
>> a sub-plot that sits rather strangely around the "my lords" and
>> "prithees" of Shakespearian prose poetry.
>
>With, to my mind at least, considerable satire of various theatrical
>devices (play within a play within a play anyone?), a look at the
>"limbo" state of these characters, and, best of all, the chance to shout
> "FIRE" in a crowded theatre =8-)

It's (also) a play about being an actor. The basic situation of R&GAD is
that of the actors who have to play those roles in the standard Hamlet
form. The characters know only what Shakespeare wrote down - so they
don't know anything about their own history, or - since they are always
together and have no specific identifying characteristics - even which one
of them is which. Except that one of them wins and the other loses, for
no discernible reason.

=Tamar

Lena Williams

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 12:17:52 AM8/14/02
to
On 13 Aug 2002 20:49:19 GMT, CCA <annew2...@aol.com> wrote:

>Oh my God! There's slash about Bashir and Garak? <makes
>not-liking-the-thought-of-it face> I used to fancy him a few years ago.
>Bashir, obviously, not Garak.

I prefer Garak. Or, preferably, Dukat.

I believe Andy Robinson, the guy who plays Garak, has said that, as far as
he's concerned, Garak fancies the pants off Bashir.

>That's what I thought, too. Slash about Star Trek and the like is one thing,
>but Harry Potter involves *children*, and involving child characters in that
>sort of stuff is just not on IMO.

But what about when it's written by people the same age as the Harry
Potter characters? I'm not particularly involved in the HP slash
community but my impression of it is that a lot of the writers are around
that age.

Lena
--
http://www.anejo.nu \\ http://derry.anejo.nu
http://www.livejournal.com/~anejo
"My instinct tells me that burial in cement is murder." - The X-Files

Richard Eney

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 12:48:20 AM8/14/02
to
In article <3D573783...@infi.net>,
Paul E. Jamison <paul...@infi.net> wrote:
<snip>

>Okay, I'll take the plunge.
>
>It's at my personal website - in four parts. It turned out to be a bit
>long. The URL for for my DS fan fiction is
>
>http://www.geocities.com/pauljmsn/Due_South_fanfic.html
>
>The story is titled "Due Rimward". Feel free to read and comment.

I liked it. Although there was a lot of exposition for the benefit of
fans who weren't familiar with one or the other of the worlds, there
were touches that IMO were worthy of Pterry himself. The plot was
reliable :-) even if there were a few episodes that existed to bring in
a character or an element that wasn't absolutely required by the basic
plot.

=Tamar

Jens Murer

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Aug 14, 2002, 5:48:40 AM8/14/02
to

"Katherine F." <katherinef@softhomedotnet> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3d5968d6...@news.iol.ie...

> http://ivy.veela-inc.net/glossary.html

You clicked that lately?

- dae / jens


Diane L.

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Aug 14, 2002, 10:03:13 AM8/14/02
to

"Richard Eney" <dic...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:ajcnek$t58$2...@news1.Radix.Net...

> In article <3D573783...@infi.net>,
> Paul E. Jamison <paul...@infi.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> >Okay, I'll take the plunge.
> >
> >It's at my personal website - in four parts. It turned out to be a bit
> >long. The URL for for my DS fan fiction is
> >
> >http://www.geocities.com/pauljmsn/Due_South_fanfic.html
> >
> >The story is titled "Due Rimward". Feel free to read and comment.
>
> I liked it.

Me too.

Further comments mailed.

Diane L.


Sian Hiscock

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 10:09:33 AM8/14/02
to

>
> I believe Andy Robinson, the guy who plays Garak, has said that, as far as
> he's concerned, Garak fancies the pants off Bashir.


I've only seen a few episodes of Star Trek, and despite it's political
correctness, I didn't see a gay character. IS there one?

Sian
XxX


Diane L.

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 10:20:23 AM8/14/02
to

"Sian Hiscock" <Sianie...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:ajdoat$9k7$1...@helle.btinternet.com...

Well, so far there have been 5 (or 6, if you count the cartoons) Star
Trek series. I don't think any of them have had a recurring character
who has been presented as being gay, but that doesn't stop the fans
looking.

Diane L.


Eric Jarvis

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Aug 14, 2002, 10:23:42 AM8/14/02
to
In article <ajdoat$9k7$1...@helle.btinternet.com>,

I will be convinced to my dying day that some of the subtext in the
first generation of Star Trek is deliberately intended to hint at the
possibility that Kirk is a closet...other than that not a thing

Star Trek has never been allowed to really push the boundaries...it's
sad because it very clearly has had people working on it who would have
liked to


--
eric
"If you can't stand the heat
open the kitchen window"

Lena Williams

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 11:30:33 AM8/14/02
to
On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:09:33 +0000 (UTC), Sian Hiscock
<Sianie...@btopenworld.com> wrote:

Not that I've seen. The ST version of political correctness appears to
extend as far as race and gender and no further. Even then, the
impression is very much of tokenism.

And, of course, shortly after Andy Robinson made this comment, Garak got
hooked up with Zainal.

There is talk that the British guy in Enterprise is going to be gay but I
strongly suspect that's just wishful thinking from the fans.

*sigh*

Lena

"I'm a spiteful bastard. I always have been. If I can make trouble, then
that's perfect for me." - John Lydon

Beth Winter

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 2:36:13 PM8/14/02
to
Sian Hiscock wrote:

I think the closest we got was Jadzia not caring for the fact that her Trill
mate from a previous "life" was currently the same gender as her own body. I
believe there was even a kiss?

I think I've also read this comment from Andy Robinson, who is a supreme
fanfiction... scuse me, trekbook writer as far as I'm concerned ^_^

--
Beth Winter
The Discworld Compendium <http://go.to/thediscworldcompendium>
"To absent friends, past loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman


gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukdeletethis

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Aug 14, 2002, 3:21:13 PM8/14/02
to
Hi there,

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:09:33 +0000 (UTC), "Sian Hiscock"
<Sianie...@btopenworld.com> wrote:

>I've only seen a few episodes of Star Trek, and despite it's political
>correctness, I didn't see a gay character. IS there one?

Nope.

TNG wimped out when Beverley Crusher fell for a male Trill (the host/
symbiont species) but when the host died and the symbiont was stuck in
a female host, she wasn't interested any more (talk about judging
books by the cover!)

In DS9, however, there was an episode where Jadzia Dax met another
(female) Trill who had been the girlfriend(? partner? wife?) of one of
her earlier hosts (Curzon?) and, despite Trill custom where a new host
isn't supposed to have anything to do with a previous host's
relationships, ended up in a girl on girl snog.

(The cynical part of me wonders just how the series' ratings were
doing at the time...!)

Cheers,
Graham.

Diane L.

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Aug 14, 2002, 4:21:37 PM8/14/02
to

<gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukDELETETHIS> wrote in message
news:3d5a96db...@news.cache.cable.ntlworld.com...

> Hi there,
>
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:09:33 +0000 (UTC), "Sian Hiscock"
> <Sianie...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
> >I've only seen a few episodes of Star Trek, and despite it's political
> >correctness, I didn't see a gay character. IS there one?
>
> Nope.
>
> TNG wimped out when Beverley Crusher fell for a male Trill (the host/
> symbiont species) but when the host died and the symbiont was stuck in
> a female host, she wasn't interested any more (talk about judging
> books by the cover!)
>
> In DS9, however, there was an episode where Jadzia Dax met another
> (female) Trill who had been the girlfriend(? partner? wife?) of one of
> her earlier hosts (Curzon?) and, despite Trill custom where a new host
> isn't supposed to have anything to do with a previous host's
> relationships, ended up in a girl on girl snog.

But one thing I did like about that episode was the fact that everyone
else said "So what's the problem? Oh, it's some old Trill custom!"
rather than "But she's the same sex as you!!! What are you thinking
of???". This seemed to imply that the writers felt that the current
prejudice against same-sex relationships would be forgotten by the
twenty-fourth(?) century.

DS9 was the most forward-thinking Trek series IMO.

Diane L. (and on that uncontroversial note ... :-))


CCA

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Aug 14, 2002, 4:41:39 PM8/14/02
to
Lena Williams (>le...@anejo.freeserve.co.uk) wrote

>I believe Andy Robinson, the guy who plays Garak, has said that, as far as
>he's concerned, Garak fancies the pants off Bashir.

If you read the Deep Space Nine books, that's made completely obvious.

> Slash about Star Trek and the like is one thing,
>>but Harry Potter involves *children*, and involving child characters in that
>>sort of stuff is just not on IMO.

>But what about when it's written by people the same age as the Harry
>Potter characters? I'm not particularly involved in the HP slash
>community but my impression of it is that a lot of the writers are around
>that age.

Hmmm...
Call me old-fashioned, but should someone of that age really be reading slash?
Let alone writing it.
CCA:)

Leo Breebaart

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 4:43:18 PM8/14/02
to

"Sian Hiscock" <Sianie...@btopenworld.com> writes:

> I've only seen a few episodes of Star Trek, and despite it's political
> correctness, I didn't see a gay character. IS there one?

At least for ST:TNG, there very deliberately wasn't:

<http://dir.salon.com/ent/feature/2001/06/30/gay_trek/>

"[...] insiders agree that Roddenberry's subordinates have
deliberately kept the official "Star Trek" canon free of any explicit
mention of homosexuality [...]"

"'According to the script, Guinan was supposed to start telling
Lal, 'When a man and a woman are in love ...' and in the
background, there would be men and women sitting at tables,
holding hands," Arnold says. "But Whoopi refused to say that. She
said, 'This show is beyond that. It should be "When two people are
in love."' And so it was decided on set that one of the tables in
the background should have two men holding hands -- or two women,
or whatever. But someone ran to a phone and made a call to the
production office and that was nixed. [Producer] David Livingston
came down and made sure that didn't happen.'"

So much for the groundbreaking daringness of Star Trek, eh?

--
Leo Breebaart <l...@lspace.org>

CCA

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 4:44:39 PM8/14/02
to
Sian Hiscock (>Sianie...@btopenworld.com) wrote

>I've only seen a few episodes of Star Trek, and despite it's political


>correctness, I didn't see a gay character. IS there one?

Garak is played a lot straighter in the series than he is in the books. And,
of course, later in the series he...spoiler space coming up...
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
....has a relationship with Gul Dukat's daughter.
CCA:)

CCA

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 4:48:46 PM8/14/02
to
Eric Jarvis (>use...@ericjarvis.co.uk) wrote

>Star Trek has never been allowed to really push the boundaries...it's
>sad because it very clearly has had people working on it who would have
>liked to

That's one of the reasons I stopped watching it - it was all so, well, I
suppose clean is the only word I can think of. That's why I liked Farscape -
like Deep Space Nine only dirtier. Well, a bit, anyway. They had their own
swearword, for one thing, and it was made completely plain what it meant.
CCA:)

CCA

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 5:06:16 PM8/14/02
to
Re my comment earlier about stopping watching Deep Space Nine because it was
too 'clean', and liking Farscape because it was like DSNine only 'dirtier'

I think 'clean' is possibly the wrong word - what I meant was that it was
obviously written with family viewing in mind - they never seemed to push the
boundaries with sex or, come to that, violence. After all, Worf and the other
Klingons carry 'Bat-Leths' - after they'd used those, there'd be blood all over
the place, right? You never saw anything like that. You never saw, AFAICR,
two characters of either sex or any species in bed together - in fact, sex was
very rarely spoken of really. There was no strong language, and a lot of the
storylines could be quite moralising at times. Farscape was earthier.
The Star Trek books did push things a bit further, but even then it never went
beyond Dax talking about Bashir trying to 'get her into bed'.
CCA:)

Katherine F.

unread,
Aug 14, 2002, 5:43:57 PM8/14/02
to
On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:48:40 +0200, "Jens Murer"

<dae...@stadtwache.net> typed into his/her/its keyboard the following:

Just now. It's working fine. Sure, there's a little pop-up
password screen, but you don't actually need to fill anything in to
read the page, and if you feel so inclined the username and password
are actually *on* the password dialogue.

Or were you referring to the content? In which case, a little
more information would be nice, so I can figure out what question you
want answered.

Brian Wakeling

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Aug 14, 2002, 5:57:33 PM8/14/02
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"CCA" <annew2...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020814164139...@mb-fj.aol.com...

> Lena Williams (>le...@anejo.freeserve.co.uk) wrote

> > Slash about Star Trek and the like is one thing,


> >>but Harry Potter involves *children*, and involving child characters in
that
> >>sort of stuff is just not on IMO.
>
> >But what about when it's written by people the same age as the Harry
> >Potter characters? I'm not particularly involved in the HP slash
> >community but my impression of it is that a lot of the writers are around
> >that age.
>
> Hmmm...
> Call me old-fashioned, but should someone of that age really be reading
slash?
> Let alone writing it.
> CCA:)

Exactly!

But...

It is a fact that Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe
(maybe even the world, I'm not sure - but definitely Europe), and many
people are losing their virginity before the age of consent at 16.

And then you get TV shows like "Neighbours" on just when the kids are
getting home from school, and everyone in them is wearing very little
clothing (compared to British clothing amounts) and half of the characters
are actively pursuing sexual relationships with the other half.

So, face facts. Kids are getting involved in sex earlier than they once
were, and this includes writing about it. And I defy *anyone* to say they
didn't so much as have just *one* sexual fantasy as a teenager, even if it
was only about the girl/boy in your class that you fancied at the time.


Sabremeister Brian :-)

Paul E. Jamison

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Aug 14, 2002, 9:10:37 PM8/14/02
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Lena Williams wrote:

[snip]

>
> I believe Andy Robinson, the guy who plays Garak, has said that, as far as
> he's concerned, Garak fancies the pants off Bashir.
>

Garak is a tailor, though. If he fancies the pants off Bashir, it may be just
to get him into a more fashionable pair.

Paul E. Jamison

--

"There's more pressure on a vet to get it right.
People say 'It was God's will' when Granny dies,
but they get *angry* when they lose a cow."
- Terry Pratchett


Paul E. Jamison

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Aug 14, 2002, 9:14:52 PM8/14/02
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Richard Eney wrote:

A valid point - I confess that it was tempting to throw in as many
characters as I could. That, plus the large amount of exposition, I
would put down to "First Episode Syndrome" or something like that.

Thank You Kindly, Tamar and Diane, for the feedback.

Daibhid Chiennedelh

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Aug 14, 2002, 7:31:00 PM8/14/02
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>From: "Brian Wakeling" brian.w...@virgin.net
>Date: 14/08/02 22:57 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <lmA69.3642$0U4.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>
It may be worth mentioning, but probably isn't, that at the Edinburgh Fringe I
saw a ten-year-old girl do a (totally brilliant) self-written comedy routine,
part of which was based around the surrealist concept of her pet dog being a
prostitute...

I don't think I even had a point when I started this time...

Jens Murer

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Aug 14, 2002, 7:27:51 PM8/14/02
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"Katherine F." <katherinef@softhomedotnet> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3d5ace90...@news.iol.ie...

> Or were you referring to the content? In which case, a little
> more information would be nice, so I can figure out what question you
> want answered.

Sorry, was just refering to my own blindness ;o))

Uhm.. I read this stuff and... hm.. I'm wondering.... are there many
het-scenes in HP which are not shown in the movie?
And: Is fanfic based on this whole sex-stuff? Or it just HP? I read many
many text in the last 2 years I'd call 'Disc-fic' after reading the glossar
and never ever read one piece of naked skin in it...

- jens


Katherine F.

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Aug 14, 2002, 8:09:13 PM8/14/02
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On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:27:51 +0200, "Jens Murer"

<dae...@stadtwache.net> typed into his/her/its keyboard the following:
>"Katherine F." <katherinef@softhomedotnet> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:3d5ace90...@news.iol.ie...
>
>> Or were you referring to the content? In which case, a little
>> more information would be nice, so I can figure out what question you
>> want answered.
>
>Sorry, was just refering to my own blindness ;o))
>
>Uhm.. I read this stuff and... hm.. I'm wondering.... are there many
>het-scenes in HP which are not shown in the movie?

The movie only adapted one book, the first one, in which
there's basically nothing even remotely sexual, on account of the main
characters being 11 and rather sheltered. In Book 2, Hermione has a
crush on a male teacher whom Mrs Weasley also fancies, and Ginny has a
crush on Harry. In Book 3, Harry has the beginnings of sexual feelings
for the Ravenclaw Seeker, Cho Chang. In Book 4, all the main
characters seem to be getting interested in sex, and there's a whole
tangled web of unspoken and/or unacknowledged feelings, especially
around the Yule Ball.

>And: Is fanfic based on this whole sex-stuff?

The short answer is no. The long answer is: it doesn't have to
be, but a lot of the time it is, because (whether your taste runs to
het or slash) it tends to be missing in the source material, and one
of the reasons fanfic exists in the first place is to fill in the gaps
in the source material. But "a lot of the time" does not mean "all of
the time" or even "most of the time". A person could happily spend
years and years reading and writing fanfic without ever encountering a
sexually-themed story. And if they weren't interested in those kinds
of stories, there'd be no reason for them to look for them.

> I read many
>many text in the last 2 years I'd call 'Disc-fic' after reading the glossar
>and never ever read one piece of naked skin in it...

Discworld does not encourage that kind of thing; as a setting
it's curiously asexual, unlike many fandoms in which there's lots of
sex in the base material which is sublimated or repressed or kept just
beneath the surface of the text. I get the impression from the books
that Terry isn't really particularly interested in sex in the
"count-the-legs-and-divide-by-two" sense, at least not as a subject
for his fiction.


--
Katherine F. replace "dot" with "." http://puritybrown.diaryland.com/

'"Do I look like some mystical butt-sex pixie who leaves lovers under
your pillow in exchange for a tooth?...
The correct answer is 'no', Jhim."'

Jens Murer

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Aug 15, 2002, 4:32:44 AM8/15/02
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"Katherine F." <katherinef@softhomedotnet> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3d5aedd0...@news.iol.ie...

> >And: Is fanfic based on this whole sex-stuff?
>
> The short answer is no. The long answer is: it doesn't have to
> be, but a lot of the time it is, because (whether your taste runs to
> het or slash) it tends to be missing in the source material, and one
> of the reasons fanfic exists in the first place is to fill in the gaps
> in the source material. But "a lot of the time" does not mean "all of
> the time" or even "most of the time". A person could happily spend
> years and years reading and writing fanfic without ever encountering a
> sexually-themed story. And if they weren't interested in those kinds
> of stories, there'd be no reason for them to look for them.

I just wondered cause any third definition seemed to be a sexual one.

Hm... right back to copyrights and stuff: When looking up DISCLAIMER... they
just write on top: This Story includes Characters and Places created by JKR.
I understand this, but what about the reporting to the author... they just
write a letter to her in which they tell her, that they publish a story
wherein Harry is raping one or two girls and she's okay with that? (Imagines
what PTerry would tell/do to him if doing so ;o)) Is it just a
copyright-thing where everybody just hopes, nobody will check, or is M[r]s.
Rowling receiving MANY stories per week.

- dae / jens

*~*~*
http://www.llamedos.de


Malaclypse

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Aug 15, 2002, 4:54:22 AM8/15/02
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Leo Breebaart <l...@lspace.org> wrote in message news:<ajefd6$1gn$1...@library.lspace.org>...

Yeah. There was an episode of Next Gen where the doctor fell in love
with this dying alien.
They were so passionate.
He was saved, when he was transferred into another body, and the
doctor was looking forward to meeting him when he was well.

But he had been transferred into the body of a woman.
The doctor lost all interest entirely, despite the fact that she was
"so in love with him as a person".

Presumably the makers see Homosexuality as un-natural, and it will
have been "phased out" by that time.
Very politcally correct.

Richard Bos

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Aug 15, 2002, 10:03:48 AM8/15/02
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Mary Messall <mmes...@ups.edu> wrote:

> Richard Bos wrote:
> > Well, no; those characters, at least the major ones, _had_
> > personalities. Homeros is the greatest of the writers to put those
> > characters into a solid form, and set them down in a story, but
> > Aphrodite was a flirt even before Homeros wrote about her, and Ares was
> > a surly bastard before the Iliad. They had to be - it's in their nature.
> > You can't be a Goddess of Love without being flirtatious, or a Greek War
> > Hero without being mighty in arms and possibly a bit rash.
>
> Look, Plato wanted to exclude poets from his Republic on the grounds
> that works like the Iliad were impious and disrespectful to the gods,
> because they were so familiar, and treated them like men. Homer makes
> them, not abstractions, but people.

Myeah. Well, imprimis, Plato was an ornery, reactionary, upper-class
bastard who wanted his own class to have all the power (remember, he was
a philosopher _and_ a member of the ruling class); he probably didn't
even want the plebs to read, let alone read disrespectful opinions about
authority.
Secondly, the fact that he wanted to exclude poets in general, not just
the work of Homer, does suggest that it wasn't just Homer who was guilty
of those practices. In fact, in the whole of Greek literature, the
characters of the gods vary from abstract spirits via high-minded
individuals and almost humans to downright buffoons. Not all of that
came through Homer; there must have been other sources, possibly
unwritten.

> I don't think this is controversial, and I don't think I'm
> the first person to observe that the Aeneid is written in conscious
> imitation of the Iliad.

No, you aren't, and that isn't what I'm disputing. It's just that the
denomination "fanfic" suggests, to me, that the entire intention of
Vergilius was to imitate Homeros inside his own universe. It wasn't. He
didn't intend, so much, to imitate Homeros-the-writer, as to imitate
Old-Greek-fiction-the-culture; to write a work that would form the basis
for Roman legendry much as the Iliad formed the basis of Greek legendry.

IOW, he wanted to create a work _next to_ the Iliad, not one sprouted
off from the Iliad. And even though the plot of the Aeneis _is_ a story
about a minor character in the Iliad, a device closely associated with
fanfiction, the whole atmosphere is different, the form is different,
and, most importantly, the culture is not _just_ that of Homeros. It is
the culture of which Homeros was the greatest writer, but it wasn't his
exclusively, and it certainly wasn't his creation alone.

I think I can put this most plainly by saying that to me, "fanfic" has
overtones of "derivative", whereas the Aeneis is strongly inspired by,
but by no means derivative of, Homeros.

> > (Oh, btw: Vergil is not a misspelling. Virgil is. It may be one of the
> > most common misspellings in the English language (given that even
> > they're/their/there are usually spelled correctly), but it is one even
> > so. After all, the man was called Publius V_e_rgilius Maro, not
> > Virgilius. And he was born in the Andes. )
>
> His name is Vergilius in Latin, Virgil in English, and I managed to
> conflate the two unconsciously or something--I wasn't being pedantic,
> just careless.

I know that, but you were carelessly correct. Not just in Latin, either;
my (COED) dictionary states Vergil as a possible alternative spelling of
Virgil. So this is one careless spelling that I wouldn't worry about :-)

> [Sir Gawain and the Green Knight]
> > And, of course, the fact that I have finally managed to read it in the
> > original Middle-English - a rather more Northern and less modern, quite
> > a bit harder Middle-English than Chaucer's, even though it is about
> > contemporary - is a point greatly in its favour, because it is very good
> > for my ego <g>.
>
> It's one of those things that I'm sure I'll inevitably read eventually,
> but I'm likely to read it much sooner after that glowing review... I
> wonder what the critics said when it first came out?

I gather it was rather popular. The story itself was, in any case (this
particular version is a retelling of a story combining elements from
several earlier stories); but the fact that we have a copy left, with
pictures, no less, seems to suggest that this version, too, was well
liked.

Richard

Torak

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Aug 15, 2002, 10:26:34 AM8/15/02
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"Malaclypse" <gra...@kirkliston.co.uk> wrote in message
news:f2d3d5b7.02081...@posting.google.com...

> Leo Breebaart <l...@lspace.org> wrote in message
news:<ajefd6$1gn$1...@library.lspace.org>...
> > "Sian Hiscock" <Sianie...@btopenworld.com> writes:
> >
> > > I've only seen a few episodes of Star Trek, and despite it's political
> > > correctness, I didn't see a gay character. IS there one?
> >
> > At least for ST:TNG, there very deliberately wasn't:
> >
> > <http://dir.salon.com/ent/feature/2001/06/30/gay_trek/>
<snip>

> > So much for the groundbreaking daringness of Star Trek, eh?
>
> Yeah. There was an episode of Next Gen where the doctor fell in love with
this dying alien.
> They were so passionate.
> He was saved, when he was transferred into another body, and the
> doctor was looking forward to meeting him when he was well.
> But he had been transferred into the body of a woman.
> The doctor lost all interest entirely, despite the fact that she was
> "so in love with him as a person".
>
> Presumably the makers see Homosexuality as un-natural, and it will
> have been "phased out" by that time.
> Very politcally correct.

I don't like PC... ;-)

Anyway, I'm quite glad of that. I don't like romance scenes at the best of
times, and while people are free to do whatever they like - I don't want to
know all the gory details.


Diane L.

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Aug 15, 2002, 1:27:40 PM8/15/02
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"Torak" <to...@andrew-perry.com> wrote in message
news:uSO69.225767$Ma.21...@amsnews02.chello.com...

> > Leo Breebaart <l...@lspace.org> wrote in message
> news:<ajefd6$1gn$1...@library.lspace.org>...
> > > "Sian Hiscock" <Sianie...@btopenworld.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > I've only seen a few episodes of Star Trek, and despite it's
political
> > > > correctness, I didn't see a gay character. IS there one?
> > >
> > > At least for ST:TNG, there very deliberately wasn't:

<snip>


> Anyway, I'm quite glad of that. I don't like romance scenes at the best of
> times, and while people are free to do whatever they like - I don't want
to
> know all the gory details.

This was on prime-time TV, remember. I doubt they would have shown
us *all* the gory details.

Diane L.


Sian Hiscock

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Aug 15, 2002, 5:05:18 PM8/15/02
to

> >>
> >> Hmmm...
> >> Call me old-fashioned, but should someone of that age really be
reading
> >slash?
> >> Let alone writing it.
> >> CCA:)
> >
> >

You mean to tell me you didn't own some form of porn as a nipper? Or at
least stare at the page 3/Men's Health for longer then you should.

> >It is a fact that Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in
Europe
> >(maybe even the world, I'm not sure - but definitely Europe), and many
> >people are losing their virginity before the age of consent at 16.

I know. I saw it at school, but thanks to my upbringing didn't partake.

> >
> >And then you get TV shows like "Neighbours" on just when the kids are
> >getting home from school, and everyone in them is wearing very little
> >clothing (compared to British clothing amounts) and half of the
characters
> >are actively pursuing sexual relationships with the other half.
> >

Interesting... but it's still done in a very p.c way I think.


> >So, face facts. Kids are getting involved in sex earlier than they once
> >were, and this includes writing about it. And I defy *anyone* to say they
> >didn't so much as have just *one* sexual fantasy as a teenager, even if
it
> >was only about the girl/boy in your class that you fancied at the time.

I used to daydream that I dated the school hunk, and I was suddenly elivated
to the school's Queen Bee. *sighs* Damn school.

> >
> It may be worth mentioning, but probably isn't, that at the Edinburgh
Fringe I
> saw a ten-year-old girl do a (totally brilliant) self-written comedy
routine,
> part of which was based around the surrealist concept of her pet dog being
a
> prostitute...
>


I really, really want to see this. Don't ask why, but I do.


Sian
XxX


Malaclypse

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Aug 16, 2002, 4:38:28 AM8/16/02
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"Diane L." <di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ajgoae$u1m$1...@library.lspace.org>...

Back in their frontier days(TM) they weren't afraid to show Kirk
kissing a black woman, which at the time was subversive.
I don't think people then would have wanted to see the "Gory details"
of that kiss!

As for homosexuality, people can do what they like in their homes, and
as far as I'm concerned they can do it wherever they like.
Seeing a couple of blokes kissing could be quite disconcerting, but I
can think of worse things to watch on TV.
And it would certainly be groudbreaking and .... different for this
"pioneering programme"

Torak

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Aug 16, 2002, 6:22:26 AM8/16/02
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"Mary Messall" <mmes...@ups.edu> wrote in message
news:3D557566...@ups.edu...
> Arwen Lune wrote:
> > I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
> > fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
> > writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
> > serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...
>
> I have recently been making the case elsewhere that the Aeneid
> basically counts as fanfic, set in Homer's universe. And I consider it
> a good candidate for greatest literary work of all time.

What, the Aeneid is Simpsons fanfic?


Jens Murer

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Aug 16, 2002, 6:34:33 AM8/16/02
to

"Torak" <to...@andrew-perry.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Cn479.237235$Ma.22...@amsnews02.chello.com...

> > I have recently been making the case elsewhere that the Aeneid
> > basically counts as fanfic, set in Homer's universe. And I consider it
> > a good candidate for greatest literary work of all time.
>
> What, the Aeneid is Simpsons fanfic?

It must be a joke. please tell me, it's a joke.


Jonathan Ellis

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Aug 16, 2002, 8:42:10 AM8/16/02
to

Jens Murer wrote in message ...


of course it is...

Jonathan.

Jens Murer

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Aug 16, 2002, 8:50:30 AM8/16/02
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"Jonathan Ellis" <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:ajirbg$e4p$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

> >It must be a joke. please tell me, it's a joke.
> of course it is...

phuh... :oD


Torak

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Aug 16, 2002, 7:14:47 PM8/16/02
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"Jens Murer" <dae...@stadtwache.net> wrote in message
news:ajikqd$dph$02$1...@news.t-online.com...

Of course. Be relieved.... ;-)

If I'd been serious I would have noticed that oh bugger, I'd left out the
"a".


Mark

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Aug 17, 2002, 9:23:41 AM8/17/02
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In article <Cn479.237235$Ma.22...@amsnews02.chello.com>,
Torak <to...@andrew-perry.com> wrote:

Sorry, having to piggyback this post...

> > Arwen Lune wrote:
> > > I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
> > > fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
> > > writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
> > > serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...
> >

IIRC, a Xena fanfic writer actually became a writer for the show, eventually
producing a lot of the best episodes...

--
__ __ _
| \/ |__ _ _ _| | __ "I'm a Concorde pilot, not a biscuit."
| |\/| / _` | '_| |/ / www.russellb.ukgateway.net/mark/dmz/Index.htm
|_| |_\__,_|_| |_|\_\ E-Mail to dmzweb...@yahoo.co.uk

Mark

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Aug 17, 2002, 9:29:33 AM8/17/02
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In article <f2d3d5b7.02081...@posting.google.com>,
Malaclypse <gra...@kirkliston.co.uk> wrote:

> As for homosexuality, people can do what they like in their homes, and
> as far as I'm concerned they can do it wherever they like.
> Seeing a couple of blokes kissing could be quite disconcerting, but I
> can think of worse things to watch on TV.

Like Big Brother...

:-P

Beth Winter

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Aug 18, 2002, 6:51:03 AM8/18/02
to
Mark wrote:

> In article <Cn479.237235$Ma.22...@amsnews02.chello.com>,
> Torak <to...@andrew-perry.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry, having to piggyback this post...
>
> > > Arwen Lune wrote:
> > > > I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
> > > > fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
> > > > writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
> > > > serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...
> > >
>
> IIRC, a Xena fanfic writer actually became a writer for the show, eventually
> producing a lot of the best episodes...

I've heard the same about Buffy/Angel and early Star Trek (now ST
non-comissioned scripts are thrown out without being read AFAIK)

--
Beth Winter
The Discworld Compendium <http://go.to/thediscworldcompendium>
"To absent friends, past loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman


Malaclypse

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Aug 19, 2002, 4:36:56 AM8/19/02
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Mark <Marko...@libertysurf.co.uk> wrote in message news:<4b67709011...@libertysurf.co.uk>...

> In article <f2d3d5b7.02081...@posting.google.com>,
> Malaclypse <gra...@kirkliston.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > As for homosexuality, people can do what they like in their homes, and
> > as far as I'm concerned they can do it wherever they like.
> > Seeing a couple of blokes kissing could be quite disconcerting, but I
> > can think of worse things to watch on TV.
>
> Like Big Brother...
>
> :-P


Brrr... I'd almost managed to banish that from my mind...

Torak

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Aug 19, 2002, 2:57:33 PM8/19/02
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"Daibhid Chiennedelh" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020814193100...@mb-mc.aol.com...
> >From: "Brian Wakeling" brian.w...@virgin.net

> >"CCA" <annew2...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> Lena Williams (>le...@anejo.freeserve.co.uk) wrote
> >
> >> > Slash about Star Trek and the like is one thing,
> >> >>but Harry Potter involves *children*, and involving child characters
in that
> >> >>sort of stuff is just not on IMO.

Agreed.

> >> >But what about when it's written by people the same age as the Harry
> >> >Potter characters? I'm not particularly involved in the HP slash
> >> >community but my impression of it is that a lot of the writers are
around
> >> >that age.
> >> Hmmm...
> >> Call me old-fashioned, but should someone of that age really be
reading slash?
> >> Let alone writing it.

Also agreed.

> >Exactly!
> >
> >But...
> >
> >It is a fact that Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in
Europe
> >(maybe even the world, I'm not sure - but definitely Europe), and many
> >people are losing their virginity before the age of consent at 16.

Then you've got people like me to balance it out - 20 and counting.

> >And then you get TV shows like "Neighbours" on just when the kids are
> >getting home from school, and everyone in them is wearing very little
> >clothing (compared to British clothing amounts) and half of the
characters
> >are actively pursuing sexual relationships with the other half.
> >So, face facts. Kids are getting involved in sex earlier than they once

Which is a pity, because it just isn't healthy. Certainly, biologically then
may be at their most fertile in their mid-teens (I don't know, I'm not a
doctor) which could indicate that that's the age at which humans are meant
to have kids, but nowadays it isn't healthy. It can literally ruin their
lives.

> >were, and this includes writing about it. And I defy *anyone* to say they
> >didn't so much as have just *one* sexual fantasy as a teenager, even if
it
> >was only about the girl/boy in your class that you fancied at the time.

I can say it.

It wouldn't be true, but I can say it. ;-)


Mark

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Aug 18, 2002, 2:21:00 PM8/18/02
to
In article <3D5F7C17...@astercity.net>,
Beth Winter <ren...@astercity.net> wrote:

> I've heard the same about Buffy/Angel and early Star Trek (now ST
> non-comissioned scripts are thrown out without being read AFAIK)

But that was how a lot of script writers in the 60's got their start, with
Trek...

No wonder the ideas were starting to dry up on Voyager and Deep Space Fiv...I
mean Nine...

--
__ __ _
| \/ |__ _ _ _| | __ Star Trek: Voyager. 100% recycled.


| |\/| / _` | '_| |/ /

Mark

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Aug 19, 2002, 3:53:17 PM8/19/02
to

> > Like Big Brother...
> >
> > :-P


> Brrr... I'd almost managed to banish that from my mind...

I'm stuck in a house with a family that was addicted to that show...

The horror...the horror...

<hides under table>

--
__ __ _

| \/ |__ _ _ _| | __ Star Trek: Voyager. 100% recycled.

| |\/| / _` | '_| |/ /

Torak

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 5:50:26 PM8/19/02
to
"CCA" <annew2...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020814170616...@mb-fj.aol.com...
> Re my comment earlier about stopping watching Deep Space Nine because it
was
> too 'clean', and liking Farscape because it was like DSNine only 'dirtier'
>
> I think 'clean' is possibly the wrong word - what I meant was that it was
> obviously written with family viewing in mind - they never seemed to push
the
> boundaries with sex or, come to that, violence. After all, Worf and the
other
> Klingons carry 'Bat-Leths' - after they'd used those, there'd be blood all
over
> the place, right? You never saw anything like that. You never saw,
AFAICR,
> two characters of either sex or any species in bed together - in fact, sex
was
> very rarely spoken of really. There was no strong language, and a lot of
the
> storylines could be quite moralising at times. Farscape was earthier.
> The Star Trek books did push things a bit further, but even then it never
went
> beyond Dax talking about Bashir trying to 'get her into bed'.

IIRC Peter David's books could be quite graphic.


SteveD

unread,
Aug 20, 2002, 8:05:38 AM8/20/02
to
Mark <Marko...@libertysurf.co.uk> stumbled up to the camera and said -
"It's..."

>In article <f2d3d5b7.02081...@posting.google.com>,
> Malaclypse <gra...@kirkliston.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> > Like Big Brother...
>> >
>> > :-P
>
>
>> Brrr... I'd almost managed to banish that from my mind...
>
>I'm stuck in a house with a family that was addicted to that show...
>
>The horror...the horror...

Hey, we could put a couple of cameras in there pointed at Mark. People
would watch it, right? We could call it "Aren't you glad you're not this
poor bastard?"

-SteveD
--
333: Eric the Half-a-Beast

Torak

unread,
Aug 20, 2002, 12:42:42 PM8/20/02
to
"Katherine F." <katherinef@softhomedotnet> wrote in message
news:3d5aedd0...@news.iol.ie...

> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:27:51 +0200, "Jens Murer"
> <dae...@stadtwache.net> typed into his/her/its keyboard the following:
> >"Katherine F." <katherinef@softhomedotnet> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >news:3d5ace90...@news.iol.ie...
> >
> > I read many
> >many text in the last 2 years I'd call 'Disc-fic' after reading the
glossar
> >and never ever read one piece of naked skin in it...
>
> Discworld does not encourage that kind of thing; as a setting
> it's curiously asexual, unlike many fandoms in which there's lots of
> sex in the base material which is sublimated or repressed or kept just
> beneath the surface of the text. I get the impression from the books
> that Terry isn't really particularly interested in sex in the
> "count-the-legs-and-divide-by-two" sense, at least not as a subject
> for his fiction.

And when it does crop up in the books, it's usually dealt with very briefly
and superficially, without any detail - see the Angua/Carrot scene in Men At
Arms, for instance. (Or was it G!G! ?)

And that, *in my opinion*, is as it should be.


Torak

unread,
Aug 20, 2002, 12:44:22 PM8/20/02
to
"Jens Murer" <dae...@stadtwache.net> wrote in message
news:ajfp5o$60g$04$1...@news.t-online.com...

> "Katherine F." <katherinef@softhomedotnet> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:3d5aedd0...@news.iol.ie...
>
> Hm... right back to copyrights and stuff: When looking up DISCLAIMER...
they
> just write on top: This Story includes Characters and Places created by
JKR.
> I understand this, but what about the reporting to the author... they just
> write a letter to her in which they tell her, that they publish a story
> wherein Harry is raping one or two girls and she's okay with that?
(Imagines
> what PTerry would tell/do to him if doing so ;o)) Is it just a
> copyright-thing where everybody just hopes, nobody will check, or is
M[r]s.
> Rowling receiving MANY stories per week.

The "real" authors aren't (AFAIK) sent the stories - the copyright notice
just says "these aren't my characters, and here's me showing that I'm not
trying to nick them."


Alec Cawley

unread,
Aug 20, 2002, 1:40:55 PM8/20/02
to
Torak wrote:

And, IMO, corresponds to about the amount of sex that most people actually
see in the real world. I don't think there are actually many people who are
into public orgies and/or group sex; most of us keep our sex lives behind
closed doors. Which means that, just as in the DW books, we know perfectly
well that it goes on but do not get involved in the details - nor, in my
case at least, want to. If that is the way I want it in RL, I think it
excellent that it be that way in DW.

Though I must comment that, having suggested that a friend read DW books to
11-13 year olds, I was astonished at the number of points which might
reuire explanation for at least some of that group (WS and WA being the
books in question). Nanny Ogg, at least, is very experienced.

--
@lec Ć awley

Daibhid Chiennedelh

unread,
Aug 20, 2002, 5:29:57 PM8/20/02
to
>From: Beth Winter ren...@astercity.net
>Date: 18/08/02 11:51 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3D5F7C17...@astercity.net>

>
>Mark wrote:
>
>> In article <Cn479.237235$Ma.22...@amsnews02.chello.com>,
>> Torak <to...@andrew-perry.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, having to piggyback this post...
>>
>> > > Arwen Lune wrote:
>> > > > I find it a great shame that a lot of people assume that
>> > > > fanfiction is necessarily always bad. There is a lot of good
>> > > > writing about, and some of it is fanfiction. There is some
>> > > > serious tripe about, and some of it is original fiction...
>> > >
>>
>> IIRC, a Xena fanfic writer actually became a writer for the show,
>eventually
>> producing a lot of the best episodes...
>
>I've heard the same about Buffy/Angel and early Star Trek

Very nearly *all* the authors of official, BBC Doctor Who novels started their
writing careers in the fanzines.

--
Dave
EU SF&FSoc http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
When one is tired of London, one is tired of being overcharged, overcrowded,
insulted, rushed and compelled to make 2 hour journeys that anywhere else would
take 15 minutes. -Diane L on afp.

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