work-related ABEND till sometime after 8-February-2004
Kate Gladstone
handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area) -
I leave very early on Monday (so will spend Sunday packing and making
other preparations), won't return till quite late on Friday, and know
from experience to expect at least two days of jet-lag.
Therefore, don't expect to "see" me from Sunday through the next eight
days at the earliest.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair - ka...@global2000.net
http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
David Friedman
Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
> I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
> handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area)
Wouldn't learning legible handwriting disqualify them from writing
prescriptions?
--
Remove NOSPAM to email
Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com
saavik
Kate Gladstone wrote:
Safe journey, Kate.
Margo (humming, "...going to California in my miiiind...")
John Vinson
wrote:
>I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
>handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area) -
Wow. If you succeed, would you be willing to go to Jerusalem and to
Ramallah and talk to a couple of folks there? <bg> Good luck!
>I leave very early on Monday (so will spend Sunday packing and making
>other preparations), won't return till quite late on Friday, and know
>from experience to expect at least two days of jet-lag.
>
>Therefore, don't expect to "see" me from Sunday through the next eight
>days at the earliest.
Have a great trip, Kate!
John the Wysard jvinson *at* WysardOfInfo *dot* com
Mark Atwood
> In article <kate-DE8CCD.2...@syrcnyrdrs-01-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>,
> Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
>
> > I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
> > handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area)
>
> Wouldn't learning legible handwriting disqualify them from writing
> prescriptions?
I am given to understand that now in many states, the *opposite* is
true, that doctors can, in theory, have their licence revoked for
sending illegible scrips to pharmacies.
--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right,
m...@pobox.com | people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Lee Gold
>
> I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
> handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area) -
> I leave very early on Monday (so will spend Sunday packing and making
> other preparations), won't return till quite late on Friday, and know
> from experience to expect at least two days of jet-lag.
If you're free Tuesday night and want to compare filk songs,
give me a call. We're in West LA, ten minutes drive from LAX.
--Lee Gold
Ed Murphy
I work not far from there-- what's going on? I only know a bit
about filks but I don't mind listening. Kate, will you be there?
David M. Silver
Ed Murphy <emur...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
I've never been filked. ;-) Give me a call in Santa Monica if you set
something up for Tuesday. I'll see if I can pry free.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
Kate Gladstone
>If you're free Tuesday night and want to compare filk songs,
> give me a call. We're in West LA, ten minutes drive from LAX.
Does the phone-book list you? If not, please remind me of your
phone-number (which I cannot at the moment find).
In any case, Tuesday night will probably find me technically "free" but
actually bone-tired - flying westward leaves me VERY
"early-to-bed-and-early-to-rise" - so I may not have the energy to spare
for a call. Still, please send your number "just in case" ...
Kate Gladstone
> >> I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
> >> handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area) -
> >> I leave very early on Monday (so will spend Sunday packing and making
> >> other preparations), won't return till quite late on Friday, and know
> >> from experience to expect at least two days of jet-lag.
... and Lee Gold answered ...
> >
> > If you're free Tuesday night and want to compare filk songs,
> > give me a call. We're in West LA, ten minutes drive from LAX.
> >
> > --Lee Gold
... Ed Murphy wondered ...
> I work not far from there-- what's going on?
For Lee - a free evening, presumably.
For me - probably exhaustion after a hard day helping doctors learn to
handwrite better.
> I only know a bit
> about filks but I don't mind listening. Kate, will you be there?
If "there" refers to the hospital that has hired me to visit California,
any answer of mine had better add up to "yes."
If "there" refers to the hotel-room where I'll typically collapse after
a hard day of such work, I can answer "most probably."
If "there" refers to some West LA filk-meeting, I'll have to answer:
"only if Lee wants to get me there and if I have the energy to do it and
to still work a full day, possibly sun-up-till-much-too-late, the next
day: I won't know my schedule till I get there, but quite a few
hospitals require my services as early as 7 AM and/or as late as 8 PM,
owing to the vagaries of the doctors' own work-schedules."
I don't know yet where the hospital will have me stay, but if Lee will
e-mail me her phone-number I can save it and call her from there on
Tuesday night (or does she need me to call earlier?) if time and energy
permit.
Kate Gladstone
> >I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
> >handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area) -
John Wysard answered:
> Wow. If you succeed, would you be willing to go to Jerusalem and to
> Ramallah and talk to a couple of folks there? <bg> Good luck!
Thanks - but I don't think the folks trying to create peace in the
Mid-East would have much use for someone who doesn't speak Arabic and
who speaks Hebrew non-natively.
Doctors, these days, can get fired (and/or their hospital can lose
accreditation) if they don't write legibly at emergency-room speed -
but who has the authority to fire those "couple of folks in Jerusalem
and Ramallah"?
Mike Dworetsky
"David Friedman" <dd...@daviddfriedman.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ddfr-A008E3.2...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> In article <kate-DE8CCD.2...@syrcnyrdrs-01-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>,
> Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
>
> > I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
> > handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area)
>
> Wouldn't learning legible handwriting disqualify them from writing
> prescriptions?
I'm surprised that in this day and age they do not just print them out by
computer and sign them. My UK doctor routinely does this.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove "pants" spamblock to send e-mail)
Kate Gladstone
>
> > I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
> > handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area)
David Friedman asked:
>
> Wouldn't learning legible handwriting disqualify them from writing
> prescriptions?
No - increasingly, illegible prescriptions (rather than the other kind)
tend to cause trouble for doctors (they can get sued for malpractice if
the Rx kills someone - the hospital can lose its accreditation if an MD
writes illegibly on an Rx or other document, etc.)
Kate Gladstone
;-C
Howard Berkowitz
<plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
There's a very strong sentiment in the higher echelons of medicine that
this is exactly what should be done (e.g., the Institute of Medicine,
National Academy of Sciences).
Two practical factors are limiting deployment. First, physician
resistance. Second, the US doesn't have a centralized health budget as
does the National Health Service.
Even if an idea appears very good, the hospital administrators will ask,
reasonably, "where is the money coming from for the new system?"
Jette Goldie
"Kate Gladstone" <ka...@global2000.net> wrote in message
news:kate-DE8CCD.2...@syrcnyrdrs-01-ge0.nyroc.rr.com...
> I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
> handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area) -
>
HAH!
Doctors with legible handwriting? Wouldn't they get kicked out
of the profession?
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Jette Goldie
"Mike Dworetsky" <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bvim0q$hqf$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
Mine too. Keeps the records of what has been prescribed
to me lately on the computer too.
Kate Gladstone
> ... in this day and age [doctors] do not just print [prescriptions] out by
> computer and sign them. My UK doctor routinely does this.
In the USA, at least, the new and increasingly enforced strictures
demanding legibility for MDs' handwriting apply to the signatures of the
MDs just as much as to other writing they might do.
When the hospital-accreditation folks come to call on hospitals, an MD's
signature (just like any other bit of his/her writing) goes before the
eyes of people who do not know the doctor's name.
If they cannot deduce the doctor's name from his/her signature
alone (_sans_ typed or printed "translation") - too bad for the doctor
and for the hospital, because the hospital-accreditation people see this
(or other handwriting lapse) as meriting what they quaintly call a "Type
1 error": the most serious demerit they can give. (To get an idea of the
seriousness of a "Type 1" as defined by the Joint Commission on the
Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations - the Joint Commission also
gives "Type 1's" to doctors who self-inject with heroin.
Kate Gladstone
Vicki
> handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area) -
> I leave very early on Monday (so will spend Sunday packing and making
> other preparations), won't return till quite late on Friday, and know
> from experience to expect at least two days of jet-lag.
>
> Therefore, don't expect to "see" me from Sunday through the next eight
> days at the earliest.
Do you ever have that experience where you go to pack and you find
everything has shrunk two sizes? I know I do
Buddha Buck
> AARGH - I forgot and cross-posted!
>
> ;-C
>
alt.callahans. I usually see him in a difference newsgroup not
crossposted here.
Lee Gold
We have open house Tuesday evenings.
The next LA filksing will be February 21st in Garden Grove.
Then March 27th in our home in West LA (3965 Alla Road,
Los Angeles), starting at 7 PM. Everyone's invited to the
LA filksing.
--Lee
Lee Gold
We have open house Tuesday evenings.
The next LA filksing will be February 21st in Garden Grove.
Then March 27th in our home in West LA (3965 Alla Road,
Los Angeles), starting at 7 PM. Everyone's invited to the
LA filksing, but Kate won't be in town then. Our phone
number is (310) 306-7456. (Check the West LA phonebook
under Lee Gold & Barry Gold if you lose track of this.)
Yes, Kate, we'd love to see you while you're out here.
Yes, we'll understand if you're too exhausted after teaching.
--Lee
--Lee
Simon Jester U.S.
> AARGH - I forgot and cross-posted!
>
> ;-C
>
How horrible of you! You are bad and dispicable! My life will never be the
same! Oh, the horror... the horror...
Kay Shapero
ge0.nyroc.rr.com>, ka...@global2000.net says...
> I don't know yet where the hospital will have me stay, but if Lee will
> e-mail me her phone-number I can save it and call her from there on
> Tuesday night (or does she need me to call earlier?) if time and energy
> permit.
>
I live about a mile from Lee and might well turn up at her next
Tuesday... :->
--
Kay Shapero
reply address munged - use earthlink.net
filk FAQ http://home.earthlink.net/~kayshapero/filkfaq.htm
Sean Cleary
I would like to join, but only if Kate will be there as it is a 1h+
drive on clear freeways from here, and the freeways are not likely to
be clear. Also I will have to ask permission to not take care of the
kids on a home work night. So unlikely, as Kate can not garentee she
will be there until too late.
Still, so close and yet so far.
Sean
Nancy Lebovitz
Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
>When I wrote:
>>
>> > I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
>> > handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area)
>
>David Friedman asked:
>>
>> Wouldn't learning legible handwriting disqualify them from writing
>> prescriptions?
>
>No - increasingly, illegible prescriptions (rather than the other kind)
>tend to cause trouble for doctors (they can get sued for malpractice if
>the Rx kills someone - the hospital can lose its accreditation if an MD
>writes illegibly on an Rx or other document, etc.)
And a good thing, too.
What's surprising in retrospect is the decades of thinking that doctors
with illegible handwriting was entirely and simply a subject for jokes.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Now, with bumper stickers
Using your turn signal is not "giving information to the enemy"
Ogden Johnson III
>>David Friedman asked:
>>> Wouldn't learning legible handwriting disqualify them from writing
>>> prescriptions?
>>No - increasingly, illegible prescriptions (rather than the other kind)
>>tend to cause trouble for doctors (they can get sued for malpractice if
>>the Rx kills someone - the hospital can lose its accreditation if an MD
>>writes illegibly on an Rx or other document, etc.)
>And a good thing, too.
>
>What's surprising in retrospect is the decades of thinking that doctors
>with illegible handwriting was entirely and simply a subject for jokes.
It was that "black humor" we're always hearing about. Contrary
to parochial thinking within the medical fraternity, it isn't
restricted to them. Us non-medical types have been doing it for
centuries also.
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]
Lee Gold
>
> In article <kate-09A623.05502501022004@syrcnyrdrs-01-
> ge0.nyroc.rr.com>, ka...@global2000.net says...
> > I don't know yet where the hospital will have me stay, but if Lee will
> > e-mail me her phone-number I can save it and call her from there on
> > Tuesday night (or does she need me to call earlier?) if time and energy
> > permit.
> >
> Whether this will encourage you or the opposite, be advised that
> I live about a mile from Lee and might well turn up at her next
> Tuesday... :->
Kate phoned to say she's at a Pasadena hotel, doesn't have the
use of a car (and can't drive), and feels it would be best
not to ask to be transported to the LAX area Thursday
after her day's work for her Friday flight back home
(though we could have let her sleep here).
So it seems our get together isn't going to happen.
We are still always pleased to see friends if they're in
the neighborhood.
Our open house night ise now Tuesday nights (which lets us watch
Smallville and Angel-or-West Wing on Wednesdays).
--Lee
Nancy Lebovitz
Ogden Johnson III <oj3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>na...@unix5.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>
>>>David Friedman asked:
>
>>>> Wouldn't learning legible handwriting disqualify them from writing
>>>> prescriptions?
>
>>>No - increasingly, illegible prescriptions (rather than the other kind)
>>>tend to cause trouble for doctors (they can get sued for malpractice if
>>>the Rx kills someone - the hospital can lose its accreditation if an MD
>>>writes illegibly on an Rx or other document, etc.)
>
>>And a good thing, too.
>>
>>What's surprising in retrospect is the decades of thinking that doctors
>>with illegible handwriting was entirely and simply a subject for jokes.
>
>It was that "black humor" we're always hearing about. Contrary
>to parochial thinking within the medical fraternity, it isn't
>restricted to them. Us non-medical types have been doing it for
>centuries also.
Except that it wasn't especially bitter--if it were jokes about
about people dying or getting the wrong leg cut off or somesuch as
the result of bad medical handwriting, I'd agree with you.
However, the jokes seemed to have more of a tone of "isn't it funny
that people from a respected profession have lousy handwriting?".
Chris Croughton
<na...@unix5.netaxs.com> wrote:
> In article <f16t10hgdounv9k8v...@4ax.com>,
> Ogden Johnson III <oj3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>na...@unix5.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>>
>>>>David Friedman asked:
>>
>>>>> Wouldn't learning legible handwriting disqualify them from writing
>>>>> prescriptions?
>>
>>>>No - increasingly, illegible prescriptions (rather than the other kind)
>>>>tend to cause trouble for doctors (they can get sued for malpractice if
>>>>the Rx kills someone - the hospital can lose its accreditation if an MD
>>>>writes illegibly on an Rx or other document, etc.)
>>
>>>And a good thing, too.
>>>
>>>What's surprising in retrospect is the decades of thinking that doctors
>>>with illegible handwriting was entirely and simply a subject for jokes.
>>
>>It was that "black humor" we're always hearing about. Contrary
>>to parochial thinking within the medical fraternity, it isn't
>>restricted to them. Us non-medical types have been doing it for
>>centuries also.
>
> Except that it wasn't especially bitter--if it were jokes about
> about people dying or getting the wrong leg cut off or somesuch as
> the result of bad medical handwriting, I'd agree with you.
Presumably something like that happening is the point behind this new
push to them getting better. I still think that having a computer would
be faster, simpler and cheaper, like we do in the UK...
> However, the jokes seemed to have more of a tone of "isn't it funny
> that people from a respected profession have lousy handwriting?".
Us engineers have been joking about our own handwriting for years as
well, but I suspect that the general public doesn't get to see our
handwriting as often so it isn't as well known.
Chris C
Wilson Heydt
Mike Dworetsky <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
There is a company in the US set up to have the doctors office send
the Rx electronically to the pharmacy.
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Howard Berkowitz
wrote:
There are actually three major networks that do that, SureScript, RxHub,
and one with a name that I forget. One is sponsored by retail
pharmacies, one by pharmacy benefit providers (third party payors) and
one by workers' compensation insurers.
Margaret Middleton
> reasonably, "where is the money coming from for the new system?"
what new system?
We're talking about a template in the wordprocessor that his office nurse uses.
Margaret Middleton
Howard Berkowitz
msm...@aol.com (Margaret Middleton) wrote:
I assume you are quoting from my comments on electronic prescribing
systems. Having designed some, they are far from simple templates.
They do far more than simply allow the prescription to be typed, and
some of these additional functions are directly related to safety and
cost reduction. Additional functions, more at the bleeding edge, can
improve patient care even more.
Take a basic example. First, a wordprocessor at the nurse's desk isn't
going to be practical for many clinical situations. You need something
that can physically be with the clinician. If you use something the size
of a PDA, you are quite limited in input techniques. Yes, you can use
script recognition or a virtual keyboard tapped with a stylus, but these
aren't terribly convenient. I've found that the most useful platform is
a handheld with an actual keyboard.
Yet many older clinicians are not comfortable with typing out the name
of the drug, and all the instructions for its use. We haven't even begun
to use the capabilities of a computer sysrtem to check for drug and food
interactions, allergies, appropriate or inappropriate drugs for the
particular condition, etc.
So, there tend to be a couple of kinds of user interface. One may ask
the clinician to enter the first few letters of the name, and the system
will list drugs that match this pattern, and display alternatives until
one is selected. Since the clinician isn't always sure of the spelling,
and as a model that gets them to think more about what they are doing, I
happen to like a model that asks for a general category of therapeutic
agent, then narrows down the possibilities:
*click* Antihypertensives
Alpha-adrenergic antagonists
Beta-adrenergic antagonists
Mixed adrenergic antagonists
Direct vasodilators
Calcium channel blockers
Angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors
Antiotensin II receptor blockers
Diuretics *click*
...
loop diuretics
thiazides
potassium sparing *click*
amiloride
spironolactone *click*
triamterene
Once you get the drug, a decent system will immediately check a list of
drugs the patient is already taking, a list of allergies, etc., and
point out any interactions. A next step will be to offer the normal
dosage ranges for approval (or overriding if the clinician takes a
specific action to do so).
Economic factors may apply. The clinician may select a drug, but the
patient's insurer may not cover it and want an alternative or a request
for special approval. So, the system needs to know the insurer, then
check the drug against that insurer's formulary.
This isn't the only example of formularies. Hospitals tend to have
formularies of the drugs they stock -- they won't keep every variation
of every class, and typically have fewer choices than a retail pharmacy.
In the inpatient setting, either the drug needs to be checked if it is
in the formulary -- or the initial drug display simply won't show drugs
that aren't stocked. You can use the same logic for outpatients -- only
display drugs that are approved by their insurer. Formulary checks
generally require that the workstation query a remote data base.
Other variants of formularies can rank drugs by price.
I'm not going to get into some of the more advanced capabilities that
help the clinician pick the best drug for a patient's condition, given
their diagnosis, lab results, other drugs taken, etc. Let me simply go
to output.
There are two choices for output: print a prescription to give to an
outpatient or send (in hard copy) to a hospital pharmacy, or to send it
electronically. Electronic transmission speeds the process and lowers
cost. An electronic request, however, can bring up more decisions, such
as the clinician being notified the pharmacy is out of stock -- did they
want to prescribe a substitute, put in a special order, or try another
pharmacy?
If the drug is available, the pharmacy will then double-check for any
third-party payment approvals. Assuming the approvals are there, it
will then print or display the actual count-out-the-pills order for the
pharmacist, print the label for the bottle, print a patient information
sheet, and electronically transmit a reimbursement request to a
third-party payor.
If the drug is a controlled substance, the electronic transmission has
to have LOTS of additional security features.
Believe me, I've just scratched the surface.
Wilson Heydt
Howard Berkowitz <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
>If the drug is available, the pharmacy will then double-check for any
>third-party payment approvals. Assuming the approvals are there, it
>will then print or display the actual count-out-the-pills order for the
>pharmacist, print the label for the bottle, print a patient information
>sheet, and electronically transmit a reimbursement request to a
>third-party payor.
or the phamacy system may transmit the Rx data to either an
in-pharmacy dispensing robot (that may or may not, depending on
model, label the bottle) to do the actual counting, after which the
pharmacist will perform QC functions to verify that what's in the
bottle is correct, or it may be sent to either a chain-owned or
service supplied refill center where robotics will be used to
dispense and pharmacists will QC the results and ship the fill back
the pharmacy to be picked up.
>If the drug is a controlled substance, the electronic transmission has
>to have LOTS of additional security features.
Plus checks for the legally allowed number of refills, and those
values have state law dependencies.
>Believe me, I've just scratched the surface.
But you've done a very nice overview of the major issues.
Howard Berkowitz
wrote:
> In article <hcb-C5BB55.1...@text.giganews.com>,
> Howard Berkowitz <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
> >If the drug is available, the pharmacy will then double-check for any
> >third-party payment approvals. Assuming the approvals are there, it
> >will then print or display the actual count-out-the-pills order for the
> >pharmacist, print the label for the bottle, print a patient information
> >sheet, and electronically transmit a reimbursement request to a
> >third-party payor.
>
> or the phamacy system may transmit the Rx data to either an
> in-pharmacy dispensing robot (that may or may not, depending on
> model, label the bottle) to do the actual counting, after which the
> pharmacist will perform QC functions to verify that what's in the
> bottle is correct, or it may be sent to either a chain-owned or
> service supplied refill center where robotics will be used to
> dispense and pharmacists will QC the results and ship the fill back
> the pharmacy to be picked up.
I know you are describing a perfectly reasonable, real-world piece of
technology, but I can't banish a mental image of the robot diverting a
few gooooood drugs to personal use.
Wilson Heydt
To the best of my knowledge, those are the sort of drugs taht get
put in dispensing robots...unless you think the robot would
consider, say, glucophage a 'gooooood drug'.
Howard Berkowitz
wrote:
> In article <hcb-EC2D39.1...@text.giganews.com>,
> Howard Berkowitz <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
> >In article <HsKs3...@kithrup.com>, whh...@kithrup.com (Wilson Heydt)
> >wrote:
> >I know you are describing a perfectly reasonable, real-world piece of
> >technology, but I can't banish a mental image of the robot diverting a
> >few gooooood drugs to personal use.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, those are the sort of drugs taht get
> put in dispensing robots...unless you think the robot would
> consider, say, glucophage a 'gooooood drug'.
>
Hey, if I can sneak the robot a few extra electrons, I wouldn't mind a
backdoor supply of my sulfonylurea (Currently being changed to a cheaper
one).
John Vinson
<h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
>I know you are describing a perfectly reasonable, real-world piece of
>technology, but I can't banish a mental image of the robot diverting a
>few gooooood drugs to personal use.
Well, there isn't *that* much demand for WD40 or 10/30 oil for
prescription use... <g>
John the Wysard jvinson *at* WysardOfInfo *dot* com
Judith & Dave Hayman
> >It was that "black humor" we're always hearing about. Contrary
> >to parochial thinking within the medical fraternity, it isn't
> >restricted to them. Us non-medical types have been doing it for
> >centuries also.
>
> Except that it wasn't especially bitter--if it were jokes about
> about people dying or getting the wrong leg cut off or somesuch as
> the result of bad medical handwriting, I'd agree with you.
>
> However, the jokes seemed to have more of a tone of "isn't it funny
> that people from a respected profession have lousy handwriting?".
A fascinating sequence of comments... And mine from the RN side.
One of the realities in health care is that a lot has to be written
in a very short space of time, which tends to result in hurried
scribbles. I had bequtiful handwriting until I worked in a
hosptial -- especilly ER. Taking time to write neatly just _takes
time_. And there isn't any. But I've been at the receiving end of
MD handwriting. X-ray the what? What dose? What IV soluntion? What
kind of dressing is THAT? Nursing journals often feature orders
that were misread, resulting in nasty lawsuits where everyone and
their brother gets sued.
And I confess, in ER I learned to write my current illegible
signature. Even the bank says it's distinctive. Sign my name 200
times a day and that's what happened (though I did and do try to keep
patient records legible.
FWIW, we had one ER doc who had copperplate handwriting -- and she
took more time to chart than any other three docs and the unit was
always backed up like crazy when she was on.
I'm not defending bad writing, I'm just understanding it from the
front lines.
Judith
Dorothy J Heydt
Judith & Dave Hayman <hay...@mountaincable.net> wrote:
>
>One of the realities in health care is that a lot has to be written
>in a very short space of time, which tends to result in hurried
>scribbles.
And of course the reason MDs (traditionally) have such bad
handwriting in the first place is all the notes they had to take
in college and in med school. My handwriting is pretty awful too
and I don't have an MD, only two years' worth of grad school.
After that I went to work in an office and learned Speedwriting,
into which I occasionally still lapse.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Howard Berkowitz
Edel) wrote:
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > And of course the reason MDs (traditionally) have such bad
> > handwriting in the first place is all the notes they had to take
> > in college and in med school. My handwriting is pretty awful too
> > and I don't have an MD, only two years' worth of grad school.
>
> Oddly enough, in my own grad classes I am finding taking detailed notes
> is
> worthless in most classes; in the lecturey-ones, we almost always get
> powerpoint (or pdf, or web based) slides in advance and it's been more
> than
> enough to just make a few annotations on top of those... and in seminars,
> being heads-down over notes is a good way not to be able to keep up with
> the
> conversation.
To some extent, I take notes when in a physical class -- but rarely if
ever look at them. The act of taking them tends to imprint them in my
memory.
When studying from printed materials, however, I do tend to write
extensive notes, and often put them in the form of a textbook draft.
It's probably worth observing that I have written textbooks in my main
field, network engineering -- but I have book-length manuscripts of
notes in, say, medical physiology and intensive care. When writing such
notes, since they are intended purely for my own use, I may cut and
paste, but always edit and paraphrase. They still wouldn't be
publishable due to copyright issues.
For me, a visually oriented person, the act of rewriting does help me
remember, but I will reread my notes from written materials.
I present a lot of industry classes, where it is a given that copies of
the slides are given to students. Some clients want me to write out the
entire notes, which I dislike on an educational basis -- a set of slides
is not supposed to be a textbook. In the last class I taught, I did
provide copies of one of my books as a supplement to the course notes.
Dorothy J Heydt
Nate Edel <arch...@sfchat.org> wrote:
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> handwriting in the first place is all the notes they had to take
>> in college and in med school. My handwriting is pretty awful too
>> and I don't have an MD, only two years' worth of grad school.
>
>worthless in most classes; in the lecturey-ones, we almost always get
>powerpoint (or pdf, or web based) slides in advance and it's been more than
>enough to just make a few annotations on top of those... and in seminars,
>being heads-down over notes is a good way not to be able to keep up with the
>conversation.
Wow. Of course, I graduated in 1963. Powerpoint? What's
powerpoint?
Though in the few classes I took where slides were shown, it was
too dark to take notes.
Joe Ellis
wrote:
Why, when I was in school, "Pocket Calculators" took up yer WHOLE pocket,
were over $100 for only 4 functions, the red neon displays ate 9 volt
batteries like they was candy... and it was STILL faster to use a slide
rule!
Damn... even the TRUTH sounds like a lie, doesn't it? <<grin>>
John Vinson
wrote:
>Why, when I was in school, "Pocket Calculators" took up yer WHOLE pocket,
>were over $100 for only 4 functions, the red neon displays ate 9 volt
>batteries like they was candy... and it was STILL faster to use a slide
>rule!
>
>Damn... even the TRUTH sounds like a lie, doesn't it? <<grin>>
I was a trusted and high-performing senior in 1968. The Chemistry
Department graciously allowed me to have a key to The Calculator... a
desktop unit about the size of a laser printer, with ten number keys
and four function keys and a 2" tape printer... and a MEMORY!
I still remember how to calculate square roots... Store, Repeat,
Recall, Divide, Recall, Plus, 2, Divide, Store, Repeat, Recall,
Divide, Recall, Plus, 2, Divide, Store, Repeat, Recall, Divide,
Recall, Plus, 2, Divide, Store, Repeat, Recall, Divide, Recall, Plus,
2, Divide, until the number stops changing.
Dorothy J Heydt
When I was in school there WERE no pocket calculators.
I've already told the story, haven't I? about the fellow student
and myself who did all our problem sets together: I set up the
equations and she solved them with the slide rule she knew how to
use and I didn't. Came the final, I set up all the equations and
then laboriously went back and solved all I could (maybe half) by
pencil-and-paper brute force. She got a C for the course; I got
an A....
Not that I remember much physics any more, but enough then to get
through the course.
Mark Atwood
>
> I still remember how to calculate square roots... Store, Repeat,
> Recall, Divide, Recall, Plus, 2, Divide, Store, Repeat, Recall,
> Divide, Recall, Plus, 2, Divide, Store, Repeat, Recall, Divide,
> Recall, Plus, 2, Divide, Store, Repeat, Recall, Divide, Recall, Plus,
> 2, Divide, until the number stops changing.
Basically, that is Newton's Method, IIRC.
--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right,
m...@pobox.com | people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Bernard Peek
Berkowitz <h...@gettcomm.com> writes
>I present a lot of industry classes, where it is a given that copies of
>the slides are given to students.
It's a given unless the person giving the presentation has been properly
trained, which is rare. PowerPoint slides make spectacularly useless
handouts unless they are annotated at the time or by the author in
advance.
Lots of people take little notice of the presentation at the time,
relying on the handout afterwards. If those are just copies of the
slides they will be at best incomplete and at worst misleading.
> Some clients want me to write out the
>entire notes, which I dislike on an educational basis -- a set of slides
>is not supposed to be a textbook.
Precisely. And when you hand out a copy of the slides you are delivering
slides when what is needed is more like a textbook.
> In the last class I taught, I did
>provide copies of one of my books as a supplement to the course notes.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
In search of cognoscenti
David G. Bell
b...@shrdlu.com "Bernard Peek" wrote:
> In message <hcb-B4BECD.2...@text.giganews.com>, Howard
> Berkowitz <h...@gettcomm.com> writes
>
>
> >I present a lot of industry classes, where it is a given that copies of
> >the slides are given to students.
>
> It's a given unless the person giving the presentation has been properly
> trained, which is rare. PowerPoint slides make spectacularly useless
> handouts unless they are annotated at the time or by the author in
> advance.
>
> Lots of people take little notice of the presentation at the time,
> relying on the handout afterwards. If those are just copies of the
> slides they will be at best incomplete and at worst misleading.
You may recall my reporting of my experience with Learn Direct, and year
or two back. Their ECDL course, available for learning over the
Internet, was very much in the style of a series of slides, some of them
getting badly out of date.
The most recent ad I've seen of theres was about this guy who is so
successful at their courses that he's thinking of going into business
for himself. Read the small print, and it doesn't seem as though he has
actually completed a course yet.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
Howard Berkowitz
wrote:
> In message <hcb-B4BECD.2...@text.giganews.com>, Howard
> Berkowitz <h...@gettcomm.com> writes
>
>
> >I present a lot of industry classes, where it is a given that copies of
> >the slides are given to students.
>
> It's a given unless the person giving the presentation has been properly
> trained, which is rare. PowerPoint slides make spectacularly useless
> handouts unless they are annotated at the time or by the author in
> advance.
I'll go farther than that. If the person preparing the presentation has
not been properly trained in effective presentations, several things
tend to go wrong.
First, the text on the slides tends to be too small, and the slides
generally too cluttered, for real-time viewing. Second, judicious use
of animation can significantly help the real-time presentation, but only
the final animation will appear in printed handouts. One could work
around the latter problem by not using the true animation capability,
instead using quickly changed slide sequences so the notes will reflect
the buildup, but this detracts fromthe quality of the presentation.
>
> Lots of people take little notice of the presentation at the time,
> relying on the handout afterwards. If those are just copies of the
> slides they will be at best incomplete and at worst misleading.
When I worked in corporate strategic planning and the corporate research
lab at Nortel, it was frustrating that executives expected the
PowerPoint presentation to be sent to them several days before the
delivery. This often baffled me -- if something is to be read, a far
more appropriate presentation would be a text document with appropriate
formatting and insertion of graphics.
Bernard Peek
Berkowitz <h...@gettcomm.com> writes
>First, the text on the slides tends to be too small, and the slides
>generally too cluttered, for real-time viewing. Second, judicious use
>of animation can significantly help the real-time presentation, but only
>the final animation will appear in printed handouts. One could work
>around the latter problem by not using the true animation capability,
>instead using quickly changed slide sequences so the notes will reflect
>the buildup, but this detracts fromthe quality of the presentation.
The printed presentation doesn't have to be identical to the one used
for the presentation. You can use cut/paste to create additional slides
with the animated material at various stages. You can then either cut
those out of the file before you show it, or you can move them to the
back of the file and stop the presentation before you get to those
pages.
All it takes is to realise that the printed pages and the on-screen
presentation are different documents and should be expected to have
different contents.
Howard Berkowitz
wrote:
> In message <hcb-1D694D.1...@text.giganews.com>, Howard
Unfortunately, I've never had a industry education company client that
understood that. In the usual desire to get the wrong answers quickly,
they want the logistical simplicity of a single all-purpose document. In
rare cases, they will also want an instructor guide, which is most often
page-pair (PP notes page on the left, Word page on the right),
laboriously assembled.
When I contract directly with clients that will receive the education,
it's a budgetary decision whether or not I can provide the extra
documents. Since I do write books in areas I teach, I'm more prone to do
one PowerPoint dump but have page references to the books on the PP
notes pages.
Jette Goldie
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:Hsqxx...@kithrup.com...
When I was in school, there were pocket calculators - they
were big and bulky and energy hungry - and were also banned
in class, or in exams. (if you used one at home to do your
homework, you still had to show all your workings as if you
were using a slide rule). Come to think of it, a few years
prior to me, slide rules were banned in exams, all the *help*
you were allowed was a book of log tables.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
David M. Silver
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
> "Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
> news:Hsqxx...@kithrup.com...
[snip]
> > When I was in school there WERE no pocket calculators.
> >
>
>
> When I was in school, there were pocket calculators - they
> were big and bulky and energy hungry - and were also banned
> in class, or in exams. (if you used one at home to do your
> homework, you still had to show all your workings as if you
> were using a slide rule). Come to think of it, a few years
> prior to me, slide rules were banned in exams, all the *help*
> you were allowed was a book of log tables.
I must have been a "few years prior" to you, because I remember using
those log tables; and they are helpful once you become used to them --
after all, a slide rule is simply a mechanical device based on them. And
when Robert Heinlein was in the Naval Academy, even printed log tables
weren't allowed in some exams; but nothing said you couldn't memorize 4
place log tables, and extrapolate. So he did. See the discussion in "The
Man Who Was Too Lazy To Fail," and see also the discussion of the
methods of "kitchen arithmetic" in _EU_ taught his parents.
As a highway surveyor for a year in the late 1960s, while I was going to
university and during summers, we used a fifteen or eighteen row
mechanical adding calculator we called a coffee-grinder, which you used
to "wind" or "crank" the necessary trigonometry calculations to
determine distances, etc. It was about the area, over all, of one of
today's computer keyboards.
It looked a little like one of these three,
http://www.geo.tudelft.nl/mgp/people/gerold/calcpin.htm
http://www.geo.tudelft.nl/mgp/people/gerold/gbunkng.htm
http://www.geo.tudelft.nl/mgp/people/gerold/gbwalthe.htm
and worked on the same principals.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
Dr. Rufo
Nate Edel wrote:
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>>And of course the reason MDs (traditionally) have such bad
>>handwriting in the first place is all the notes they had to take
>>in college and in med school. My handwriting is pretty awful too
>>and I don't have an MD, only two years' worth of grad school.
>
>
> Oddly enough, in my own grad classes I am finding taking detailed notes is
> worthless in most classes; in the lecturey-ones, we almost always get
> powerpoint (or pdf, or web based) slides in advance and it's been more than
> enough to just make a few annotations on top of those... and in seminars,
> being heads-down over notes is a good way not to be able to keep up with the
> conversation.
>
First, I respectfully suggest you decide WHY you're in grad school: to
learn or to be certified. These are both valid reasons for attendance --
choose one.
Your Note-taking technique, among many other choices, should be
determined by your Grad School raison d'etre. If you seek certification
only, then take the slides and the .pdfs and all the copies of notes
anyone provides for you. Sit there. Listen. "Participate" in the
seminars. Go ahead.
If, however, you're in Grad School to LEARN: Take all the hand-outs,
sit down and shut up. Also, Learn this now: The physical process of
"taking Notes" has long been recognized as an "enhancement" to the
education process. It provides you with a sensory adjunct to the mental
accumulation of information. Understand that and you understand why
successful grad students take notes -- furiously.
It is another "positive input" for your body to aid recall of specific
fact.
One more item: Don't "bend over" while you're taking your notes -- you
place too great a strain on your back muscles and will only give
yourself another "pain" to complain about. Remember that your Mother
told you to sit up straight. If you can't read what you've placed in
your notes, get your eyes examined -- get glasses. Take Notes!
Very sincerely yours,
Dr. Rufo
John Davis
> Wow. Of course, I graduated in 1963. Powerpoint? What's
> powerpoint?
I'm a bit younger than you... It's a special hammer that uses a .22
caliber blank to shoot a nail into concrete, Brand name RAM-SET
if memory serves.
(well, it's got POWer and it's got a point and I just saw a few of them
demonstrated at a local Home Depot, though it was a different brand, and
they were shooting nails through steel I-beams)
John Davis
I later got a 4-banger (Fixed decimal) that was kind of fun.
Then I got a National Semi-conductor (Later sold as Texas Instruments)
that was king of nice used RPN, 3 stacks. Very nice unit, wish it had not
grown a pair of legs and ran off.
In article <qv9b20dfeeckj89jf...@4ax.com>,
jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com says...
John Davis
j...@blueyonder.com.uk says...
> all the *help*
> you were allowed was a book of log tables.
I've still got the C.R.C. Math reference book lying about here somewhere.
(Chemical Rubber Company if anyone wonders) handy book
Ed Reppert
<filker-0702...@sdn-ap-030tnnashp0162.dialsprint.net>, Joe
Ellis <fil...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Damn... even the TRUTH sounds like a lie, doesn't it? <<grin>>
There is a scene in "Goldfinger" where a bunch of guys are in this big
room, and Goldfinger pushes a button, and big one piece shutters slide
up and cover the windows - after which he gasses the people in the
room.
On the Monday after I say that movie, I went to a chemistry lecture.
Big old lecture hall, huge windows. The prof pushed a button, and these
big wooden shutters slid up and covered the windows. Uh, oh... :-)
Dorothy J Heydt
Hal has several copies, one that is *only* the tables.
Mark Atwood
> > you were allowed was a book of log tables.
>
> I've still got the C.R.C. Math reference book lying about here somewhere.
> (Chemical Rubber Company if anyone wonders) handy book
I have a 58th Edition. I lust for my dad's 36th Edition.
(It is very obvious that many of the plates are about worn out, and
they seriously cut back on many of the integration tranformation
tables, probably because the plates completely wore out and they were
too damn cheap to make new ones.)
The CRC Handbooks need to be all redone from scratch in TeX.
Engr Bohn
Hail, Mark Atwood! We who are about to post salute you.
> John Davis <wa8...@DO.NOT.SPAM.arrl.net> writes:
>> > you were allowed was a book of log tables.
>>
>> I've still got the C.R.C. Math reference book lying about here
>> somewhere.
>> (Chemical Rubber Company if anyone wonders) handy book
>
> I have a 58th Edition. I lust for my dad's 36th Edition.
cb's jaw drops. "I hadn't realized just how precious my copy is. As a
prize in a high school mathematics competition, I received the CRC
Standard Mathematical Tables, 25th Edition." cb examines the copyright
page. "On the other hand... are you sure yours is the *58*th Edition?
The 25th Edition is copyrighted 1978, and my copy is the 6th printing,
printed in 1983. Even assuming made multiple printings of the 25th
Edition while continuing to put out new editions, and assuming those
new editions came out one per year, then the 58th Edition isn't due out
for another seven years."
> (It is very obvious that many of the plates are about worn out, and
> they seriously cut back on many of the integration tranformation
> tables, probably because the plates completely wore out and they were
> too damn cheap to make new ones.)
>
> The CRC Handbooks need to be all redone from scratch in TeX.
"All things considered, not a bad idea -- except that producing and
checking those tables is a very error-prone and laborious process.
(Charles Babbage was checking errata to errata for some navigational
log tables when he exclaimed 'I wish to God these calculations had been
executed by steam!')
"Hmm. Babbage's cry would be the obvious way to get those tables put
into TeX *and* make sure they're correct -- have a computer generate
the tables. A computer could also generate most of the figures. Then
you'd only have to worry about manually entering the theorems and the
pages and pages of equations, ranging from (ab)^x = a^x * b^x to that
hideous beast of an equation 56 on page 408, that I won't even attempt
to reproduce here.
"I suspect a more cost-effective approach would be to scan in the
existing plates, run an edge-detection algorithm, and produce new
plates from the result."
Take care,
cb
--
Christopher A. Bohn ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/ ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
- Favius Vegetius Renatus, De Rei Militari
Engr Bohn
Sorry about replying to my own post, but I just noticed that
a) It's still crossposted
b) My newsreader decided to correct this by automatically assigning a
'follow-up' to a newsgroup I don't read
So, if you want me to read any replies, reply to *this* post (or the
identical note I'm sticking over in alt.callahans)
Paul Rubin
> > I have a 58th Edition. I lust for my dad's 36th Edition.
>
> cb's jaw drops. "I hadn't realized just how precious my copy is. As a
> prize in a high school mathematics competition, I received the CRC
> Standard Mathematical Tables, 25th Edition." cb examines the copyright
> page. "On the other hand... are you sure yours is the *58*th Edition?
I suspect the 58th edition is the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and
Physics, rather than the newer Standard Mathematical Tables. The
Handbook of Chemistry and Physics is what most people mean by "CRC
Handbook" or "Rubber bible".
CRC was recently in an obnoxious copyright dispute over Eric
Wesstein's World of Mathematics web site. Eric sold CRC the right to
print the site contents as a book. CRC then tried to make him take
the web site down, so people wanting the info would have to buy the
book. That was certainly never part of the deal as Eric understood it.
I have an old CRC Handbook but won't be buying any more CRC products.
Anyway, if someone is going to redo any math tables in TeX, it should
be done independently of CRC.
John Vinson
<ag.pl...@verizon.net> wrote:
>As a highway surveyor for a year in the late 1960s, while I was going to
>university and during summers, we used a fifteen or eighteen row
>mechanical adding calculator
When my dad was a missionary in China, he saw surveyors using
backpack-borne suan pan (abacuses) - two rows, 91 digits each. They'd
have a dozen calculations going at once, after setting up the abacus
like a folding table.
Wilson Heydt
Nate Edel <arch...@sfchat.org> wrote:
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> handwriting in the first place is all the notes they had to take
>> in college and in med school. My handwriting is pretty awful too
>> and I don't have an MD, only two years' worth of grad school.
>
>worthless in most classes; in the lecturey-ones, we almost always get
>powerpoint (or pdf, or web based) slides in advance and it's been more than
>enough to just make a few annotations on top of those... and in seminars,
>being heads-down over notes is a good way not to be able to keep up with the
>conversation.
Generational difference...no Powwer Point when I was in school...no
PCs, either. For that matter...no microprocessors. (I'm talking
about 1966 to 1970.)
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Wilson Heydt
Jette Goldie <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
I used to be pretty fast with a set of 5-place logs... Even when I
could use a slide-rule on texams, I frequently used logs by
preference.
John Davis
> John Davis <wa8...@DO.NOT.SPAM.arrl.net> writes:
> > > you were allowed was a book of log tables.
> >
> > I've still got the C.R.C. Math reference book lying about here somewhere.
> > (Chemical Rubber Company if anyone wonders) handy book
>
> I have a 58th Edition. I lust for my dad's 36th Edition.
>
> (It is very obvious that many of the plates are about worn out, and
> they seriously cut back on many of the integration tranformation
> tables, probably because the plates completely wore out and they were
> too damn cheap to make new ones.)
>
> The CRC Handbooks need to be all redone from scratch in TeX.
>
>
>
If it's old enough (Circa 1968) perhaps we could deal
charles krin
Mine's the 52nd edition...(1972)...Dad's (which my kid sister the
doctor has right now) is about the 36th (ca 1946).
One of the big changes is that the earlier editions had a nice section
with beau coups laboratory hints, tips and recipes...not so
mine...despite being at least as thick and almost four times the size
of Dad's...most of the difference was in the size of the Organic Chem
section.
ck
--
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)
Kate Secor
"Dr. Rufo" <bay...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Nate Edel wrote:
>
> > In rec.arts.sf.fandom Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >
> >>And of course the reason MDs (traditionally) have such bad
> >>handwriting in the first place is all the notes they had to take
> >>in college and in med school. My handwriting is pretty awful too
> >>and I don't have an MD, only two years' worth of grad school.
> >
> >
> > Oddly enough, in my own grad classes I am finding taking detailed notes is
> > worthless in most classes; in the lecturey-ones, we almost always get
> > powerpoint (or pdf, or web based) slides in advance and it's been more than
> > enough to just make a few annotations on top of those... and in seminars,
> > being heads-down over notes is a good way not to be able to keep up with the
> > conversation.
> >
> First, I respectfully suggest you decide WHY you're in grad school: to
> learn or to be certified. These are both valid reasons for attendance --
> choose one.
> Your Note-taking technique, among many other choices, should be
> determined by your Grad School raison d'etre. If you seek certification
> only, then take the slides and the .pdfs and all the copies of notes
> anyone provides for you. Sit there. Listen. "Participate" in the
> seminars. Go ahead.
Um... Unless grad school is so wildly different from college that there
aren't any comparisons, then this should be a very good strategy for
doing just fine.
Also, if you're an auditory learner (or a very fast one), comprehensive
notes won't help you much, since your learning is going to mostly take
place from listening to the lecture.
If you don't talk in your discussion sections, how do you pass that?
Sitting around and taking notes on what everyone else is saying isn't
exactly a great way to be a part of the class -- besides, they might be
wrong, and then where do your careful notes get you?
Aiglet
James F. Cornwall
> >In rec.arts.sf.fandom Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >> And of course the reason MDs (traditionally) have such bad
> >> handwriting in the first place is all the notes they had to take
> >> in college and in med school. My handwriting is pretty awful too
> >> and I don't have an MD, only two years' worth of grad school.
> >
> >Oddly enough, in my own grad classes I am finding taking detailed notes is
> >worthless in most classes; in the lecturey-ones, we almost always get
> >powerpoint (or pdf, or web based) slides in advance and it's been more than
> >enough to just make a few annotations on top of those... and in seminars,
> >being heads-down over notes is a good way not to be able to keep up with the
> >conversation.
>
> powerpoint?
>
> Though in the few classes I took where slides were shown, it was
> too dark to take notes.
>
Since your question has zoomed off in several tangential directions :-),
Powerpoint is a computer graphics program for presenting slideshows
(essentially). You can string together a series of screen images, with
text, graphics (pictures, graphs, line drawings, all sorts of stuff),
voice narration, animations, etc... You can click thru the slides
manually, set it up to run on a timed basis with X seconds per slide,
you can even set it up to run as a self-contained presentation that will
run as many times as you want it to.
Jim C
--
****************************************************
** Facilior veniam posterius quam prius capere! **
****************************************************
** James F. Cornwall, sole owner of all opinions **
** expressed in this message... **
****************************************************
Peter Eng
"James F. Cornwall" <JCor...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4027C2C3...@cox.net...
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >
> >
> > Wow. Of course, I graduated in 1963. Powerpoint? What's
> > powerpoint?
> >
>
> Powerpoint is a computer graphics program for presenting slideshows
>
> Jim C
>
Ummm...maybe I'm over-analyzing, but ISTM that Dorothy was being mildly
sarcastic, trying to suggest that back in 1963, nobody knew what Powerpoint
was, nobody had heard of Microsoft, and that Bill Gates was still in
elementary school.
Peter Eng
--
Just my stupid opinion.
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, yes.
I have in fact heard of Powerpoint since then. Don't think I've
ever seen anything of it, though, but then I've been retired for
several years and worked for academic, not business, before that.
J. F. Cornwall
Thought so, but figured I ought to toss in one straight answer just in
case :-)
Jim
Kay Shapero
Boy", could it possibly stop being crossposted into
rec.music.filk unless it starts generating songs?
--
Kay Shapero
reply address munged - use earthlink.net
filk FAQ http://home.earthlink.net/~kayshapero/filkfaq.htm
Kate Gladstone
today, for the first day in a LONG time,
I can read newsgroup messages
... but may not read or reply to many,
as quasi-work-related stuff impends:
tomorrow through Sunday,
I need to go to Washington, DC for
a planning-meeting of the International Pen Association:
http://ipena.org
I plan to catch up fully upon my return.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair - ka...@global2000.net
http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Scophlaw
>
>I didn't die -
Yes you did and you came back as Andrew the Vague, Vicarious Confessor of the
Rumpled Consort Psyche, Defender of the Confused.
>I've just had some weird computer-problems ...
Must be that Windows theme installed, Boondock at Sunset.
>today, for the first day in a LONG time,
>I can read newsgroup messages
rec.arts.whine.sniffle.filk.sux missed you.
>... but may not read or reply to many,
>as quasi-work-related stuff impends:
>tomorrow through Sunday,
>I need to go to Washington, DC for
>a planning-meeting of the International Pen Association:
A penhead. Predictable.
John Vinson
wrote:
>I didn't die - I've just had some weird computer-problems ...
>today, for the first day in a LONG time,
>I can read newsgroup messages
Welcome back! Glad it wasn't any worse. DON'T try to catch up with all
of a.c., you'll drown... <bg>
>... but may not read or reply to many,
>as quasi-work-related stuff impends:
>tomorrow through Sunday,
>I need to go to Washington, DC for
>a planning-meeting of the International Pen Association:
>http://ipena.org
Cool! Have a great trip and an interesting meeting!
Jane E. Silver
> I didn't die - I've just had some weird computer-problems ...
> today, for the first day in a LONG time,
> I can read newsgroup messages
>
> ... but may not read or reply to many,
> as quasi-work-related stuff impends:
> tomorrow through Sunday,
> I need to go to Washington, DC for
> a planning-meeting of the International Pen Association:
> http://ipena.org
>
> I plan to catch up fully upon my return.
Have a great time in DC Kate. Sent you an email on our China initiative.
JaneE!
David M. Silver
Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
> I plan to catch up fully upon my return.
Waiting is . . . there's a little present for you in the "[LONG!]
depictions of Jews in RAH" thread.
And, Kate, please think seriously about taking your disagreements with
"Scophlaw" to e-mail if you must continue them. No one can stop either
one of you, but some disputes become tiresome to read.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
fadermcgee
"David M. Silver" <ag.pl...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ag.plusone-05C98...@news.fu-berlin.de...
> In article <kate-F7F0D0.1...@syrcnyrdrs-03-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>,
> Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
>
> > I plan to catch up fully upon my return.
>
> Waiting is . . . there's a little present for you in the "[LONG!]
> depictions of Jews in RAH" thread.
>
> And, Kate, please think seriously about taking your disagreements with
> "Scophlaw" to e-mail if you must continue them. No one can stop either
> one of you, but some disputes become tiresome to read.
She didn't even mention the S-word in this thread, David.
VPF
Joseph Kesselman
Folks, this thread's been crossposted to four newgroups. Please beware
of exporting arguments to other discussions. (Followups nulled.)
Marilee J. Layman
But she *did* x-post again. Follow-ups to a.f.h.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Nuclear Waste
"Ogden Johnson III"
> It was that "black humor" we're always hearing about. Contrary
> to parochial thinking within the medical fraternity, it isn't
> restricted to them. Us non-medical types have been doing it for
> centuries also.
Just looking at you I was certain you were older than most of the
folks here, but I had no idea you were THAT old.
NW
--
Life is short...
Yisroel Rich Elitist Markov
said:
>When I wrote:
>
>> >I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
>> >handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area) -
>
>John Wysard answered:
>
>> Wow. If you succeed, would you be willing to go to Jerusalem and to
>> Ramallah and talk to a couple of folks there? <bg> Good luck!
>
>Thanks - but I don't think the folks trying to create peace in the
>Mid-East would have much use for someone who doesn't speak Arabic and
>who speaks Hebrew non-natively.
>
>Doctors, these days, can get fired (and/or their hospital can lose
>accreditation) if they don't write legibly at emergency-room speed -
>but who has the authority to fire those "couple of folks in Jerusalem
>and Ramallah"?
In Ramallah, nobody. More's the pity.
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Mark Atwood
>
> What's surprising in retrospect is the decades of thinking that doctors
> with illegible handwriting was entirely and simply a subject for jokes.
It's just like the "humor" of in old movies of someone staggering out
of a bar, and into their car, which then lurches off into the night,
weaving back and forth across the median.
It used to be funny. Now it's not.
Illegible `scripts are undergoing the same pop-cultural evolution.
--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right, people won't be sure
m...@pobox.com | you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra | http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus
Dorothy J Heydt
>news:4027C2C3...@cox.net...
>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >
>> > Wow. Of course, I graduated in 1963. Powerpoint? What's
>> > powerpoint?
>>
>> Since your question has zoomed off in several tangential directions :-),
>> Powerpoint is a computer graphics program for presenting slideshows
>> (essentially)...
>
>sarcastic, trying to suggest that back in 1963, nobody knew what Powerpoint
>was, nobody had heard of Microsoft, and that Bill Gates was still in
>elementary school.
Yeah, kinda. I have heard of Powerpoint and have this vague
notion that it generates slides or effective equivalent, but I've
never seen it in action. I suspect that I retired before it
became common.
Howard Berkowitz
<m...@pobox.com> wrote:
> na...@unix5.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
> >
> > What's surprising in retrospect is the decades of thinking that doctors
> > with illegible handwriting was entirely and simply a subject for jokes.
>
> It's just like the "humor" of in old movies of someone staggering out
> of a bar, and into their car, which then lurches off into the night,
> weaving back and forth across the median.
>
> It used to be funny. Now it's not.
>
> Illegible `scripts are undergoing the same pop-cultural evolution.
I suspect they will persist, regardless of pleas for electronic
prescribing by prestigious medical groups such as the Institute of
Medicine, until the liability/malpractice insurers will not cover
clinicians/facilities that routinely use manual prescribing. There are
actually many other advantages to electronic prescribing, but pure error
reduction due to illegibility leads the list.
Of course, once you have the drug electronically selected, and ideally
the patient record, you can check for interactions with other drugs,
inappropriate [1] doses for weight/age/coexisting disease, whether the
particular drug is covered by the patient's pharmacy benefit plan [2],
and whether the total list of drugs the patient takes are arranged
optimally [3].
[1] There must be a mechanism for a clinician to override an apparently
inappropriate dose, as there are many valid reasons why a human
expert can and should do so.
[2] Insurance, discount plans, etc.
[3] Developing schedules that don't require an outpatient to take one
drug every 3 hours, another every four, the first with food, the
second two hours after food, three different pills that is
available as a cheaper combined medication, etc. Sometimes, as in
complex AIDS therapy, incredibly complex dosing schedules are
necessary, although computer assistance sometimes can come up with
non-obvious improvements.
Harold Groot
>na...@unix5.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>> What's surprising in retrospect is the decades of thinking that doctors
>> with illegible handwriting was entirely and simply a subject for jokes.
>It's just like the "humor" of in old movies of someone staggering out
>of a bar, and into their car, which then lurches off into the night,
>weaving back and forth across the median.
>It used to be funny. Now it's not.
>Illegible `scripts are undergoing the same pop-cultural evolution.
This reminds me of "The Anatomy of Humor" by Morris Bishop, from about
50 years or so ago. It's a poem that discusses what is funny and what
isn't. For copyright reasons I won't quote it, but it can be found on
the web or in such books as "The Pocket Book of Humorous Verse".
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>AARGH - I forgot and cross-posted!
Not only that, but your last two posts to rasff (2/1 & 2/18) before
this were both cross-posted to the same groups and also talked about
your absence. Perhaps you should just unsub from rasff.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Nuclear Waste
"Marilee J. Layman"
Seems like a real princess. Complete with the inbreeding and
idiocy.
NW
Keith F. Lynch
> John Davis <wa8...@DO.NOT.SPAM.arrl.net> wrote:
>> If I can find mine I'll have to see what edition it is. Who knows.
> Mine's the 52nd edition...(1972)...Dad's (which my kid sister the
> doctor has right now) is about the 36th (ca 1946).
I have the 30th (1947) and 78th (1997-98).
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Peter Eng
> AARGH - I forgot and cross-posted!
>
>
Oh, you -awful- person. Hold your wrist out here, so I can slap it.
*whap*
There. Consider yourself punished.
Peter Eng
Bill Reich
Lee Gold <lee....@comcast.net> wrote:
>Ed Murphy wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 07:15:59 +0000, Lee Gold wrote:
>>
>> > Kate Gladstone wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I have a week-long business-trip to California (teaching legible
>> >> handwriting to some of the MDs at a hospital in the Los Angeles area)
-
>> >> other preparations), won't return till quite late on Friday, and know
>> >> from experience to expect at least two days of jet-lag.
>> >
>> > If you're free Tuesday night and want to compare filk songs,
>> > give me a call. We're in West LA, ten minutes drive from LAX.
>> >
>> > --Lee Gold
>>
>> I work not far from there-- what's going on? I only know a bit
>> about filks but I don't mind listening. Kate, will you be there?
>
>We have open house Tuesday evenings.
>The next LA filksing will be February 21st in Garden Grove.
>Then March 27th in our home in West LA (3965 Alla Road,
>Los Angeles), starting at 7 PM. Everyone's invited to the
>LA filksing, but Kate won't be in town then. Our phone
>number is (310) 306-7456. (Check the West LA phonebook
>under Lee Gold & Barry Gold if you lose track of this.)
>
>Yes, Kate, we'd love to see you while you're out here.
>Yes, we'll understand if you're too exhausted after teaching.
>
>--Lee
>
>--Lee
Lee Gold? Slowly I turned.
Alarms & Excursions, before the turn of the century. Right? Nice to "see"
you. Kate's unintentional crosspost wasn't a problem anyway but it's produced
a few good memories for me.
Will in New Haven
--
"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom.
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them
tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break
them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally
responsible for everything I do."
--Professor Bernardo de la Paz
in Robert A. Heinlein's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_
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Bill Reich
I talk to academics all day. All they want to know is if our new editions
have pre-loaded powerpoint slide shows for the instructor. Fortunately they
do. Of course, I doubt that you were in cell biology or immunology because
you never mentions "end of chapter questions." Or not much anyway.
Bill Reich
And there I was looking around with pleasure at all the nice folks, some
of whom I knew, that came in with Kate's little crossposting. And this one
shows up.
Let's throw her in the pool.
Nuclear Waste
"Bill Reich"
> And there I was looking around with pleasure at all the nice
folks, some
> of whom I knew, that came in with Kate's little crossposting. And
this one
> shows up.
>
> Let's throw her in the pool.
You want her feet or her head?
NW