HP Prequels, Good Idea????????????
Mark Hanson
What happened LV b4 Harry was born????, in some of the books (2,4) Harry
goes back in time through memories JR and DD's it might be a good
idea...maybe
Also has anyone wrote any fan stories??????? I have read all the books
(Brilliant), completed the PC game, and seen the film 3 times, I am getting
withdrawal symptoms!!!!!
Johannes P.
Harry wouldn't be part of it, so it wouldn't be possible to call them "Harry
Potter and..."
--
Kind Regards from Germany
Johannes
____________________________________________________
FAQ:
http://www.geocities.com/hpnewsgroup/faqfdq.htm
http://klauwin.20m.com/hphome.html
Harry Potter Lexicon:
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/
Harry Potter Glossary:
http://www.harrypotterfans.net/potterica/index.html
Pronunciation Guide:
http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/books/pronunciation/play.htm
Mark Hanson
I just thought they could be in the HP "world", Hogwarts, Young LV, DD etc
"Johannes P." <Joha...@2-serious.de> wrote in message
news:a2p013$5u3$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
Johannes P.
>I just thought they could be in the HP "world", Hogwarts, Young
>LV, DD etc
Yes, but Harry would miss and it just would be less appealing (at least in
my opinion)
Nathan Thomas
> What happened LV b4 Harry was born????,
Yeah - it could be about the last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened.
I have just thought of a great title for it too!!
"The Phantom Menace"
[We can call it "The hidden evil" for the Americans :P]
--
Nathan (Wraith).
"Nothing is so common-place as to wish to be remarkable."
--Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. (1809-1894)
.
Hanson <mark_...@talk21.com> writes
>Do you think JKR has thought about HP Prequels?????
>
>What happened LV b4 Harry was born????, in some of the books (2,4) Harry
>goes back in time through memories JR and DD's it might be a good
>idea...maybe
I think prequels about the adventures of James Potter and his three
friends could be great! I would love to read something like this!
>
>Also has anyone wrote any fan stories??????? I have read all the books
>(Brilliant), completed the PC game, and seen the film 3 times, I am getting
>withdrawal symptoms!!!!!
Me too :-).
I mean, I haven`t played the game, but anyway. To wait until September
(if that is indeed correct) is a VERY long time for a Potterholic like
me.
I also wonder where I can find some HP fanfiction, especially about my
favourite characters Lupin and Sirius.
Baerbel Haddrell
Cat
>friends could be great! I would love to read something like this!
>
that could easily be at risk of becomeing " the Hardy Boy's got to Hogwarts"
Cat
six strings , 2 swords and A LOT of leather , ....it don't get any better than
this.
The Ruiner
> I also wonder where I can find some HP fanfiction, especially about my
> favourite characters Lupin and Sirius.
>
them even seem to be fairly well done.
Impmon
smashed the keyboard with a hammer and typed:
>What happened LV b4 Harry was born????, in some of the books (2,4) Harry
>goes back in time through memories JR and DD's it might be a good
>idea...maybe
There's always a "maybe" but nothing's definate once Rowling is finished
with book 7.
>Also has anyone wrote any fan stories??????? I have read all the books
>(Brilliant), completed the PC game, and seen the film 3 times, I am getting
>withdrawal symptoms!!!!!
Check out www.fanfiction.net, go to book and you will see 2 separate HP
fanfic categories. There's over 26,000 fanfics total just for the HP
category. A good portion of them are pre HP day including many that
relates to Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prong attending Hogwarts.
Do avoid slash, pwp (porn without plot), any signs of mary sues and you
should be OK. One author that I think are good includes Constantine1453
(http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=136932)
Mark Hanson
> I have just thought of a great title for it too!!
> "The Phantom Menace"
>
> [We can call it "The hidden evil" for the Americans :P]
Not a bad title Harry Potter and the Hidden Evil!!!!!
Richard Blaber
then we the fans should certainly give it a try. I'm sure there are plenty
of fanfic sites out there - a fanfic newsgroup wouldn't hurt. How about it,
chaps and chapesses?
Yours, Richard Blaber.
"Mark Hanson" <mark_...@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:CqS38.10937$4i5.1...@news11-gui.server.ntli.net...
Laurent Lehmann
wrote in message <Ja5W0CA$wBU8...@trekdata.demon.co.uk> :
> I also wonder where I can find some HP fanfiction, especially about my
> favourite characters Lupin and Sirius.
Hmmm... be careful what you wish for :-)
Anyway, there are hundreds of HP fanfics, they aren't hard to find
with Google, for instance. The trick being, of course, to find the
good ones...
--
Laurent
pluther
Except of course, Harry wouldn't be in it, as he's still got
about 37 years before being born.
I guess it would be all about Tom Riddle, back when he was a
good kid, before turning to evil and becoming the dark Lord V...
Oh, never mind.
-Pat
--
Pat Luther -- pluther at usa dot com -- http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~pluther
What's more pointless than a .sig without a quote?
The Quizmaster
>
> What happened LV b4 Harry was born????, in some of the books (2,4) Harry
> goes back in time through memories JR and DD's it might be a good
> idea...maybe
Maybe after about forty years, by her son, just the same as James Herbert
who's just finished writing the prequel on Dune (Frank Herbert) almost forty
years later, and also very good, as the originals!
Gaynor Thomas
> Also has anyone wrote any fan stories???????
I personally like Cassandra Claire's Draco Dormiens/Draco Sinister/Draco
Veritas (in progress) trilogy which is not on fanfiction.net. Be warned
though, it's pretty agonising waiting for the next chapter to come out!
Mark Hanson
hopefully the stories i have DL will keep me going for a while!!!!!!
O'Karen
Lehmann <lleh...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
I wouldn't recommend letting a kid Google for HP fanfic or yourself if
you would be bothered by what some people imagine. Every combination
is out there doing everything. I don't mind accidentally seeing the
stories, but I don't google for fanfic pictures anymore. I notice that
it's mostly women who write the nasty stories, but I haven't let the
picture sites stay on my screen long enough to see who draws those
works of art.
Go here and scroll down. It has links to lots of fan fiction sites.
--
Karen
Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character
is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you
are. Dale Carnegie
O'Karen
<plut...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> "Mark Hanson" <mark_...@talk21.com> wrote in message
> news:<fKW38.16800$Ph2.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>...
> > Yeah - it could be about the last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened.
> >
<snip>
> > Not a bad title Harry Potter and the Hidden Evil!!!!!
>
> Except of course, Harry wouldn't be in it, as he's still got
> about 37 years before being born.
>
> I guess it would be all about Tom Riddle, back when he was a
> good kid, before turning to evil and becoming the dark Lord V...
>
Might be an interesting story except that we already know so much of
the plot. Much of it would be similar to CoS and what isn't, is
explained by Riddle in his little speech at the end. The main reason
to read the book would be Tom Riddle character development. Rowling
couldn't structure it as a mystery.
> Oh, never mind.
Oh, but, I do!
>
> -Pat
O'Karen
<ric...@blaber.fsworld.co.uk> wrote:
> Dear All - I would love to see HP prequels, and if JKR doesn't write them,
> then we the fans should certainly give it a try. I'm sure there are plenty
> of fanfic sites out there - a fanfic newsgroup wouldn't hurt. How about it,
> chaps and chapesses?
If you are interested, start it right here using FF as a thread marker.
If people complain about the length, then you can migrate elsewhere.
Beth Winter
> <snip>
> I also wonder where I can find some HP fanfiction, especially about my
> favourite characters Lupin and Sirius.
If you've an open mind, google for Azkaban's Lair. Especially Canis M.'s fics,
she's great ^_^
--
Beth Winter
The Discworld Compendium <http://go.to/thediscworldcompendium>
"To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
Richard Sliwa
> "." wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> I also wonder where I can find some HP fanfiction, especially about my
>> favourite characters Lupin and Sirius.
>
> If you've an open mind, google for Azkaban's Lair. Especially Canis
> M.'s fics, she's great ^_^
*very* open, by the looks of things! :-)
You never struck me as the type to go for slash fic, Beth!
BTW Beth, on a point of technical order... Your sig separator isn't quite
right. It should be (dash)(dash) (space), not just (dash)(dash). I've
wondered before why my news reader doesn't cut it automatically and only
just took the trouble to look more carefully. :-)
Helmüt Klank
<Ka...@infobreak.net> seine Weise zum Pulpit und überraschte jeder mit
der folgenden Enthüllung en alt.fan.harry-potter
?In article <e78c9100.02012...@posting.google.com>, pluther
?<plut...@my-deja.com> wrote:
?
?> "Mark Hanson" <mark_...@talk21.com> wrote in message
?> news:<fKW38.16800$Ph2.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>...
?> > Yeah - it could be about the last time the Chamber of Secrets was
opened.
?> >
?<snip>
?
?> > Not a bad title Harry Potter and the Hidden Evil!!!!!
?>
?> Except of course, Harry wouldn't be in it, as he's still got
?> about 37 years before being born.
?>
?> I guess it would be all about Tom Riddle, back when he was a
?> good kid, before turning to evil and becoming the dark Lord V...
?>
?Might be an interesting story except that we already know so much of
?the plot. Much of it would be similar to CoS and what isn't, is
?explained by Riddle in his little speech at the end. The main reason
?to read the book would be Tom Riddle character development. Rowling
?couldn't structure it as a mystery.
?
?> Oh, never mind.
?
?Oh, but, I do!
?>
?> -Pat
?
?--
?Karen
I'll bet George Dumbya didn't think so...
--=== mhm xxvi x xxi ===--
----====MÊÖW====----
"If it ain't broke, break it."-Gary Fisher, 1974
"I have an idea that may well be instrumental in securing for us deliverance from our enforced isolation." -The Professor, "Gilligan's Island"
##############################
This post was made possible in part through a grant by The J.R.R. Shut-The-Fuck-Up Foundation® , and the Meow Terrorist Network® (meow).
Beth Winter
> On 25 Jan 2002, Beth Winter said:
>
> > "." wrote:
> >
> >> <snip>
> >> I also wonder where I can find some HP fanfiction, especially about my
> >> favourite characters Lupin and Sirius.
> >
> > If you've an open mind, google for Azkaban's Lair. Especially Canis
> > M.'s fics, she's great ^_^
>
> *very* open, by the looks of things! :-)
>
> You never struck me as the type to go for slash fic, Beth!
*innocent look* who, me? Like, Canis M.'s Sirius/Rums is what got me into
Harry Potter! ^_^ You must have missed my spirited defense of slash quite a
few times on this group...
> BTW Beth, on a point of technical order... Your sig separator isn't quite
> right. It should be (dash)(dash) (space), not just (dash)(dash). I've
> wondered before why my news reader doesn't cut it automatically and only
> just took the trouble to look more carefully. :-)
I know, I know. But to fix it, I'd have to edit my messages in Netscape's
text editor, and it sucks at quoting html e-mail. I'm on quite a few lists
where html is allowed and it's a pain to switch all around (not to mention
the fact you have to press Enter more times...). But I'm currently
considering the move: Netscrape's been goofing around with my line length a
little too often >_<
The King of Trolls, Sir William McFuckpants
How about 'Harry Potter wets the Bed' Please discuss.
Sincerely yours,
The King of Trolls, Sir William McFuckpants
Richard Sliwa
> Richard Sliwa wrote:
<snip>
>> You never struck me as the type to go for slash fic, Beth!
>
> *innocent look* who, me? Like, Canis M.'s Sirius/Rums is what got me
> into Harry Potter! ^_^ You must have missed my spirited defense of
> slash quite a few times on this group...
I have indeed. Any chance of a repeat? Here's your opportunity...
This isn't a dig at Beth or any of the other ladies (!) present, nor at
slash or even fanfic in general, but this is something I've been wondering
for as long as I've been online. Why do so many women spend so much of
their time writing fan fic, and especially slash stuff? Fan fic, I s'pose I
can understand, but slash? I mean, most of it is one step up from porn, and
almost all of what I've actually seen can ONLY be described as hardcore
porn.
I've encountered one or perhaps at most two males who write fan fic (I say
that as an (ex)Trekkie) but women authors are all over the place.
I have yet to encounter a single piece of published fan fic in any genre
(and I'm "into" several different things) that I would consider anywhere
close to being of the same calibre as the source material. Most of what
I've ever encountered is, simply, mind-dumbingly AWFUL. The characters or
situations are lifted from the source material and made to behave so
ludicrously that any resemblance to the original is quickly lost. Not to
mention that most of these people couild do with some basic lessons in
gramma, syntax and spelling, as I've actually read highly-rated texts which
my old school teachers could have failed in an instant.
I don't normally air my views about this, becuase thankfully, fan fic
writers generally stay away from me, and I avoid them. But on the rare
occasions one of them gets in my face, I explode. :-)
> I know, I know. But to fix it, I'd have to edit my messages in
> Netscape's text editor, and it sucks at quoting html e-mail. I'm on
> quite a few lists where html is allowed and it's a pain to switch all
> around (not to mention the fact you have to press Enter more times...).
> But I'm currently considering the move: Netscrape's been goofing around
> with my line length a little too often >_<
You could always give Netscrape the old heave-ho and get a *proper* news
reader. :-) I mean, Netscrape is only marginally less foul than Outlook as
a news and mail client. I speak as one who actually used it for about 2
years (but then saw the light)...
Besides, do I understand you correctly? You actually *prefer* to use HTML
for email/news whenever it's permitted? *shudder*
Beth Winter
>
> On 27 Jan 2002, Beth Winter said:
>
> > Richard Sliwa wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
> This isn't a dig at Beth or any of the other ladies (!) present, nor at
> slash or even fanfic in general, but this is something I've been wondering
> for as long as I've been online. Why do so many women spend so much of
> their time writing fan fic, and especially slash stuff? Fan fic, I s'pose I
> can understand, but slash? I mean, most of it is one step up from porn, and
> almost all of what I've actually seen can ONLY be described as hardcore
> porn.
Unfortunately, as in the case with most things, the worst stuff
is the most common. But there *are* some rather extraordinary
fanfic writers, both slash and straight; the trick is weeding
them out from the rest. For example, Yen's Hearts and Hourglasses
(straight story) <http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Yen/> is
exceptional. Fanfic as a whole is a way to exercise one's
imagination and try one's writing skills without having to
develop a whole new world and characters. For some reason this
comes easier to women than men, but then I know many male fanfic
authors (to find them, you might want to search for yuri or
femslash - gender proportions exact reverse of the yaoi/slash
fandom). And while most people start off like you described, some
get a beta reader (voluntary proof reader or editor), and some
really interesting ideas. C'mon, never seen a scene in a movie
and thought "what if it happened the other way?" Besides, there's
quite a few script writers on Buffy and Angel IIRC who wouldn't
get the job if they didn't let their imagination run wild ^_^
Slash PWP (sex without plot) are, I guess, the female equivalent
of men looking at lesbian porn - with us being the less visual
gender and all. But fleshed-out (ie plot-possessing) slash is
often a way of experimenting with identifying with male
characters without having to deal with all that icky "in love
with a girl" stuff - in straight romance, the female reader
rather automatically identifies with the woman. And then there's
characters who are originally homosexual and it's difficult to
write straight stories about them without going into serious
alternate-universe: Mercedes Lackey books are a great source, or
many anime and manga. Of course, we do know that female readers
are *much* more likely to read and write romances, right? ^_^
Also, the reason I often look at the slash side of any given
fandom is the blessed absence of Mary Sues - the dreaded
wonderful girl who just shows up, is immediately accepted and
then either marries the author's favorite character or dies while
saving the universe (with all characters mourning her deeply).
And because this material requires a mature mind who's not
daunted by the social issues concerning homosexuality, there's
not many twelve-year-olds who think they're the next Stephen King
while they can't even spell ^_^ (though I do know one 15-year-old
who writes spectacular and deeply disturbing stuff in a manga
fandom).
Gah, long-winded, but there's quite a few essays online
(including at FictionAlley) that explain it even better. I've
only been writing fanfic for what, 10 months, and almost all in
one single fandom at that (the manga series X/1999), which is one
of those where slash/yaoi is obligatory, even if only in the
background, because of the expressed orientation of my favorite
characters...
> > I know, I know. But to fix it, I'd have to edit my messages in
> > Netscape's text editor, and it sucks at quoting html e-mail. I'm on
> > quite a few lists where html is allowed and it's a pain to switch all
> > around (not to mention the fact you have to press Enter more times...).
> > But I'm currently considering the move: Netscrape's been goofing around
> > with my line length a little too often >_<
>
<snip>
>
> Besides, do I understand you correctly? You actually *prefer* to use HTML
> for email/news whenever it's permitted? *shudder*
No, but Netscrape's text composer doesn't quote html body text
correctly. And frankly, I'm comfortable with my newsreader in
other aspects. My choice, right?
Impmon
Trolls, Sir William McFuckpants) smashed the keyboard with a hammer and
typed:
>How about 'Harry Potter wets the Bed' Please discuss.
Then he'd have an air refresher in the cupboard under the stairs. Those
Dursley are too hard on poor Harry.
Cat
another note on why there are far more femal than male fanfic writers, THIS IS
AN OPINION....
Women and men being the VERY different creatures they are cerate and express
themselves creatively different THIS IS A GENERALIZATION.
A large MAJORITY ( not all ) tend to take an existing item and over a process
of time and steps change it , this is how they create life and why thwey are
better ON THE WHOLE at the nurturing and raising of children.
Men on the other hand TEND to have a much more explosive creative process.
Creation is much more of an act of something from nothing. exceptionally
creative people have both types but they are VERY rare start with nothing and
create something and then nurture it to it's maturity ....
THIS IS JUST AN OPINION AND BY THAT FACT IT"S PROBABLY NOT RIGHT....
Pen
<ju...@plum.cream.org> wrote:
> This isn't a dig at Beth or any of the other ladies (!) present, nor at
> slash or even fanfic in general, but this is something I've been wondering
> for as long as I've been online. Why do so many women spend so much of
> their time writing fan fic, and especially slash stuff? Fan fic, I s'pose I
> can understand, but slash? I mean, most of it is one step up from porn, and
> almost all of what I've actually seen can ONLY be described as hardcore
> porn.
In the world of Star Trek pro fiction, almost all the books are (a)
crap and (b) action stories with very few 'character moments'. They
are, in other words, 'boy books', and will remain 'boy books' because -
apparently - girls will read 'boy books' but boys won't read 'girl
books' (ie the ones with those mushy moments in which the characters
actually interact with one another).
From what I've noticed, the *vast* majority of fanfic consists of
'character-based stories'. There may be an action plot (very
occasionally a good one), but the essence of the story is in the
emotions of the characters. We girls like this stuff. [I was amazed
and delighted to discover the existence of fanfic, because it gave me a
reason to write the stories I had been fantasising about the Adored One
of the time.]
JKR presents an excellent mixture of adventure plot and emotional plot,
which is presumably why her stories work for male and female readers.
Fanfic just arises because we want more. (Actually, I think all source
material must provide something in the way of 'character moments'
otherwise there would be nothing for fanfic writers to use - or even to
be interested in using.)
Now slash, there's another thing.
Why do women write slash? Lotsa possible reasons. F'rinstance, a
good many ladies find the idea of m/m sex rather exciting. (Sauce for
the goose, sauce for the gander, neh?) Sometimes, women who like the
idea perceive relationships within the canon material that those who
are not predisposed that way simply don't notice: consider, there is a
lot of Picard/Q material around. There are clues in the onscreen
material if you want to find them, but if you aren't looking, you won't
see them. (Garak/Bashir, OTOH..!)
Then again, in many of the fanficced universes, there is no obvious
female counterpart for the most desirable male(s), so rather than
invent a character, two of the males are fitted together. Buffy tVS is
unusual in providing plausible and complex m/f relationships, but shows
like original Trek, or The Professionals, or The Man from UNCLE, just
didn't. Or perhaps the slash relationship seems to be more
interesting to write than any canon or non-canon m/f relationship
(Picard/Q is a lot darker and more complex than Picard/Crusher).
> I've encountered one or perhaps at most two males who write fan fic (I say
> that as an (ex)Trekkie) but women authors are all over the place.
By contrast, I've never met a female fan who collects model starships
or shows honest interest in the technical specs.
> I have yet to encounter a single piece of published fan fic in any genre
> (and I'm "into" several different things) that I would consider anywhere
> close to being of the same calibre as the source material. Most of what
> I've ever encountered is, simply, mind-dumbingly AWFUL. The characters or
> situations are lifted from the source material and made to behave so
> ludicrously that any resemblance to the original is quickly lost. Not to
> mention that most of these people couild do with some basic lessons in
> gramma, syntax and spelling, as I've actually read highly-rated texts which
> my old school teachers could have failed in an instant.
Well, this is regrettably true. There are rather more than 1,000
pages of lists of stories <boggle> for HP at fanfiction.net, and in a
perusal of the first dozen pages I found very little that even tempted
me to open a file, and practically nothing I wanted to read to the end.
(Not content with demanding decent spelling and grammar skills, I also
close a file as soon as someone mentions the new American exchange
student [Ms Mary Sue], anyone graduating from Hogwarts, the
pre-commencement banquet, or eating blueberry waffles for breakfast.
This narrows the field enormously, before I have even got to the
question of effective writing skills and plausible characterisation.
Harrumph.)
However, there is some good stuff - it just depends what you want. As
a Girl, I want some toe-curling moments of character interaction (no,
not necessarily Sex, Passion or even Romance, simply something that
increases my understanding of the characters); to me a plausible
action/adventure plot is preferable but not essential. Quite possibly
you feel otherwise.
[BTW, as a sometime Trekkie myself, the best-ever fanfic I have read in
any genre was Macedon/Pegeel's Voyager series, which considerably
improved upon the television show. Hmm. On reflection, that isn't
much of a compliment.]
Pen
.
<p...@obvious.pensnest.co.uk> writes
>In the world of Star Trek pro fiction, almost all the books are (a)
>crap and (b) action stories with very few 'character moments'. They
>are, in other words, 'boy books', and will remain 'boy books' because -
>apparently - girls will read 'boy books' but boys won't read 'girl
>books' (ie the ones with those mushy moments in which the characters
>actually interact with one another).
What Star Trek books have you read - and most importantly, when were
these published?
I ask because Star Trek books have evolved a lot in recent years. Most
Star Trek books nowadays have a strong emphasis on character development
and continuity, much more than what you could ususally find on TV. These
books are certainly not "boy stuff". You can read a lot about
relationships, how people think and feel in books. And you can also find
strong female characters. My personal favourite is Peter David`s New
Frontier series in which you find a married couple as the main
characters. Both are Captains of their own ship but they share the same
mission. Then there is DS9 Relaunch, the continuity of DS9 in book form.
Colonel Kira is in command of DS9 and you find other strong female
characters, like security chief Ro.
>
>From what I've noticed, the *vast* majority of fanfic consists of
>'character-based stories'. There may be an action plot (very
>occasionally a good one), but the essence of the story is in the
>emotions of the characters. We girls like this stuff. [I was amazed
>and delighted to discover the existence of fanfic, because it gave me a
>reason to write the stories I had been fantasising about the Adored One
>of the time.]
>
I think you are right. My experience is that also male readers like well
written character moments and well written relationships but it is even
more important to the female reader. I also think female readers can
have much stronger emotional connections with fictional characters than
males. This is IMO the main reason why most fanfiction is written by
female fans and also because some kinds of fanfiction are only written
by female fans.
>JKR presents an excellent mixture of adventure plot and emotional plot,
>which is presumably why her stories work for male and female readers.
Yes, these books are the most popular. I see the same when looking at
Star Trek books.
>By contrast, I've never met a female fan who collects model starships
>or shows honest interest in the technical specs.
I observed the same. I just have to look at my husband or the
predominantly male members of our local Star Trek group. I would never
get the idea to watch a space battle in slow motion and look what ships
are involved :-).
>Well, this is regrettably true. There are rather more than 1,000
>pages of lists of stories <boggle> for HP at fanfiction.net, and in a
>perusal of the first dozen pages I found very little that even tempted
>me to open a file, and practically nothing I wanted to read to the end.
>(Not content with demanding decent spelling and grammar skills, I also
>close a file as soon as someone mentions the new American exchange
>student [Ms Mary Sue], anyone graduating from Hogwarts, the
>pre-commencement banquet, or eating blueberry waffles for breakfast.
>This narrows the field enormously, before I have even got to the
>question of effective writing skills and plausible characterisation.
>Harrumph.)
Hm. I haven`t started looking at HP fanfiction yet. I didn`t find the
time. But I came to the same views when looking at Star Trek fanfiction.
Some fanfiction writers are amazing but most of it is really not my cup
of tea, to put it mildly.
>
>Pen
Baerbel Haddrell
Dr. Flonkenstein
in an ultimate attempt to be funny
and witty at once, that summum of the evolution
How about 'Harry Potter at Wizard Academy VII' Please discuss.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>The King of Trolls, Sir William McFuckpants
Lord Karl McMalden, President of the Cabal (TINC)
--
Dr Flonkenstein
Alcatroll Labs Inc. Flame, troll and
antispaem bots
development.
mhm 27x12 MEOW MEOW ARMY
ICQ 146303664
Highpriest of the
Romath Religion
Professor Kookology at
BUNCHMUNCH Univ.
Wereldsman's hate lits #7
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/. ~~ | n rem 1 @ for reply
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when they pry the keyboard from my cold, dead fingers."
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KUrt Miles
until the last post by Beth - obviously I don't understand the terminology.
I am not familiar with fan fic (other than as a concept ) - I have trouble
enough getting time to read the original source material (books), much less
go searching through what has been described in the previous posts to find
good addition reading.
What do the following terms refer to?
yuri or femslash
yaoi/slash
Thanks.
KUrt
--
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know
that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -
G. K. Chesterton
-------------------
When's Book 5 out?
I read the FAQ -you can, too.
http://www.geocities.com/hpnewsgroup/faqfdq.htm
Beth Winter
>
> Please pardon my ingorance, but I thought I was following th discussion
> until the last post by Beth - obviously I don't understand the terminology.
> I am not familiar with fan fic (other than as a concept ) - I have trouble
> enough getting time to read the original source material (books), much less
> go searching through what has been described in the previous posts to find
> good addition reading.
>
> What do the following terms refer to?
>
> yuri or femslash
>
> yaoi/slash
Both refer to same-sex romantic and/or sexual relationships in
fanfiction. Slash is the original term for homosexual
relationships, deriving from the "/" used to indicate a given
pairing - like Kirk/Spock ^_~; yaoi is the Japanese equivalent,
used originally in manga and anime fandoms but becoming quite
widespread - example: Malachite and Zoisite in "Sailor Moon"
(canon relationship). Femslash is female slash, or fanfiction
featuring a lesbian relationship, and the Japanese term for this
is yuri. So a fic featuring Xena and Gabrielle in a romantic
pairing would be femslash, while Sailor Mars professing her love
for Sailor Venus would be yuri. All of those aren't necessarily
porn - romantic fics also abound, with angst being a specialty
For further reading I recommend FictionAlley's Fanfiction Primer
<http://www.fictionalley.org/primer/>, which explains all common
terms with Harry Potter examples for easy understanding ^_^
KUrt
Richard Sliwa
reading the fanfic she mentions. However (why "however" will become
apparent very soon), I gave up on it, so here are some perhaps over-long
comments.
On 28 Jan 2002, Beth Winter said:
<snip>
> Unfortunately, as in the case with most things, the worst stuff
> is the most common. But there *are* some rather extraordinary
> fanfic writers, both slash and straight; the trick is weeding
> them out from the rest. For example, Yen's Hearts and Hourglasses
> (straight story) <http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Yen/> is
> exceptional.
Over the last couple of weeks several people have posted links to their
favourites (plus one person who's posted the actual text). I've not
commented on them because, well, I don't like talking about or criticising
people behind their backs. I felt able to post my critique of eggplant-
something-or-other's text because she was here (though after her first
post, she found her way into my kill-file).
Although I agree it was superior, Hearts and Hourglasses caused me to groan
over something I've found wrong with *all* the other HP fanfic I've read,
namely the readiness with which Harry uses the Unforgivable Curses (in this
case, Cruciatus). My personal opinion (I appreciate that perhaps not
everyone will agree with this) is that Harry would simply never use them.
He's witnessed them used on people, or indeed experienced a couple for
himself, and just as he wouldn't dream of becoming a bully, he would always
look for another way out. Quite simply, he respects "life" too much. He
also doesn't like being nasty to people and will avoid it if he can (eg
he's forever holding Ron back from hitting out at Draco). And he certainly
wouldn't have performed the curse in the presence of the Founders, with
whom he thinks he's on excellent terms, whereas Draco doesn't even know who
they are. Harry therefore already has a major advantage over Draco which
he's not going to waste by making a fool of himself.
The author obviously acknowledged this to be a problem as she felt it
necessary to add a screenful of author's notes explaining her reasons for
the scene and the curse. From that point, I read perhaps two chapters
before completely losing interest.
I don't have a problem with characters acting outside the parameters set by
canon sources per se, AS LONG as the story includes some rationale for it
and it doesn't completely undermine canon. If the author can only explain
serious departures from character by means of extended notes, she (let's
face it, it's usually a she) is simply not doing her job properly.
Another problem I had was the apparent ease with which Harry can cry real
tears in front of Draco. Somebody doesn't know teenage male psychology in
the slightest. :-) Whilst Harry might openly weep in front of Ron (and I'm
not all that certain about that!), Draco is his arch-rival, the bully
before whom he can not allow himself to show the slightest weakness. And
*nothing* is as important to a teenage boy as not to show weakness to his
peers. Whether or not he's a wizard! :-)
I'll gloss over the occasional American idiom which made me wince, or
indeed the American spelling, which (I later realised with some amusement)
actually grates on me in HP stories - heck, I don't have the slightest
problem with it online or in American books, but somehow I find it
unacceptable when it comes to HP. :-)
In her favour, though, except for *very* few occasions, I can't fault her
syntax or grammar, which was a major relief!
> Fanfic as a whole is a way to exercise one's
> imagination and try one's writing skills without having to
> develop a whole new world and characters. For some reason this
> comes easier to women than men, but then I know many male fanfic
> authors (to find them, you might want to search for yuri or
> femslash - gender proportions exact reverse of the yaoi/slash
> fandom).
I'm not into Manga/Anime in the slightest (from where I assume the
Japanese-sounding? term comes), so that whole universe is outside my frames
of reference. Whilst femslash isn't entirely foreign to me (from the Trek
universe: Kira/Dax, Kira/Intendant, Janeway/Seven are some I've seen) they
really do appear few and far between, and are a tiny proportion of what's
out there, compared to male slash.
I do agree that part of the difference between male and female psychology
is that whilst we seem to respond to visual erotic stimulus more readily,
you seem to prefer written stories.
> And while most people start off like you described, some
> get a beta reader (voluntary proof reader or editor), and some
> really interesting ideas.
I just wish far more did. :-) In fact, I wish fanfic sites required it! :-)
> C'mon, never seen a scene in a movie
> and thought "what if it happened the other way?"
Yeah, sure. I've seen whole movies where I've thought "why the hell did
this happen in the first place?". :-) But my reaction (and that of most men
that I know) doesn't go as far as writing it all down. Partially because
when one's finished talking about it, one usually realises that the way the
writer dealt with the scene was usually for the best anyway. :-)
> Besides, there's
> quite a few script writers on Buffy and Angel IIRC who wouldn't
> get the job if they didn't let their imagination run wild ^_^
And, very famously, Trek always had an open script policy, where anyone
could write in their own ideas (as long as it was an entire, properly-
formatted script). Even so, the number of scripts accepted in those
circumstances is a small fraction of the pros' contributions.
This post is already getting *very* long, so I'll break it off here (not to
mention, it's late and I should be in bed). I'll make some comments on
other stuff Beth said tomorrow.
Beth Winter
>
> I promised myself that I'd not respond to Beth's post until I'd finished
> reading the fanfic she mentions. However (why "however" will become
> apparent very soon), I gave up on it, so here are some perhaps over-long
> comments.
>
> On 28 Jan 2002, Beth Winter said:
>
> <snip>
>
> > (straight story) <http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Yen/> is
> > exceptional.
>
> Over the last couple of weeks several people have posted links to their
> favourites (plus one person who's posted the actual text). I've not
> commented on them because, well, I don't like talking about or criticising
> people behind their backs. I felt able to post my critique of eggplant-
> something-or-other's text because she was here (though after her first
> post, she found her way into my kill-file).
>
Now do be a dear and send all this to Yen - one of the reasons
people write fanfics is to get feedback and make themselves
better! AFAIK she's not one of those (and those happen) who can't
take honest, constructive criticism, and I'm sure she'll
appreciate it.
Makes me wish all my fanfics weren't manga, so I could show one
to you ^_^
> > And while most people start off like you described, some
> > get a beta reader (voluntary proof reader or editor), and some
> > really interesting ideas.
>
> I just wish far more did. :-) In fact, I wish fanfic sites required it! :-)
Hint: be wary around free-submission sites - fanfiction.net is a
prime example of what trash can appear in those. There's quite a
few non-submission or reviewed archives, and those often have
quality fics.
> > Besides, there's
> > quite a few script writers on Buffy and Angel IIRC who wouldn't
> > get the job if they didn't let their imagination run wild ^_^
>
> And, very famously, Trek always had an open script policy, where anyone
> could write in their own ideas (as long as it was an entire, properly-
> formatted script). Even so, the number of scripts accepted in those
> circumstances is a small fraction of the pros' contributions.
We can still dream, eh? Then again my favorite manga studio
started off as a doujinshi circle - and doujinshi are simply
manga/comic-book equivalents of fanfiction. They're my idols!!!
^_~ (and they still suffer from the fanfic disease of being
unable to finish a series and having n+1 projects open at all
times)
> This post is already getting *very* long, so I'll break it off here (not to
> mention, it's late and I should be in bed). I'll make some comments on
> other stuff Beth said tomorrow.
Looking forward to this ^_^
Richard Sliwa
was principally a critique of HP fanfic; this one is about far more general
observations about fanfic, or rather slash fic, so people may wish to
ignore it (another reason I split my reply into two posts)...
On 28 Jan 2002, Beth Winter said:
<snip>
> Slash PWP (sex without plot) are, I guess, the female equivalent
> of men looking at lesbian porn - with us being the less visual
> gender and all.
TBH lesbian pr0n doesn't do much for me (and a lot of blokes I know) -
despite being a red-blooded male and all. :-) Then again, in most DIY
"psychological profile"-type things I come out being very untypically male,
and one I did recently (http://test3.thespark.com/gendertest/ - lots of
fun, and with scientific pretensions!) was 83% sure I was a woman... :-)
However, the one thing that really gets me about slash is that women seem
to have a need to ascribe homosexual tendencies to all close male
relationships. The vast majority of blokes appear to have have no need do
do so with regard to female ones, nor indeed fantasise about them anywhere
near as much women appear to. I know of at least a couple of women in Trek
fandom who seriously and energetically INSIST (not as a fantasy nor for a
laugh) that the ONLY explanation for the Kirk/Spock or Bashir/O'Brien
relationships is that the participants are gay, and put forward
increasingly ludicrous canon factoids in support of this thesis, putting
down the canon heterosexual relationships the men enjoy as nothing more
than self-denial.
Getting a bit psychoanalytical about this, I wonder if there's not a
certain amount of subconscious jealousy present in this attitude, along the
lines of "if *I* can't have him, the only reason is because he's not
interested in women at all".
This also appears (on a different level) in fanfic which involves the
author placing themselves in the storyline as the object of the hero's
desires. Sure, men fantasise about being in the hero's shoes, or in the
case of female heroines, bedding the heroine, but they rarely consider
voicing this out loud, Then again, perhaps it has something to do with
men's fear of making fools of themselves by expressing their fantasies (not
necessarily sexual ones). :-)
> But fleshed-out (ie plot-possessing) slash is
> often a way of experimenting with identifying with male
> characters without having to deal with all that icky "in love
> with a girl" stuff - in straight romance, the female reader
> rather automatically identifies with the woman.
Sorry, but I don't buy that reasoning. Obviously, women readers will
naturally identify with female characters (doh!) but I don't see how it
follows from that, that the (male) hero needs to enter a relationship with
another bloke. Why is falling for another man less icky than falling for a
girl? And why should anyone feel that writing a not-necessarily plausible
relationship between two men should enable women to identify with those
characters? By introducing sex into the equation, they undermine the
relationship entirely, and thus the characters involved. Inventing a gay
relationship between close friends doesn't help understanding male bonding
in the slightest.
TBH I find this attitude a bit worrying, because whilst blokes accept that
women can and do have very close friendships with other women, without any
sexual content whatsoever, two blokes doing anything more together than
attending a sports fixture is somehow "questionable". Or at least that's
the impression I get. :-)
> And then there's
> characters who are originally homosexual and it's difficult to
> write straight stories about them without going into serious
> alternate-universe: Mercedes Lackey books are a great source, or
> many anime and manga.
I don't have a problem with that in the slightest - lest I've given the
wrong impression of myself, I have nothing against consenting same-sex
relationships; my only issue is with inventing gay or lesbian desires where
they are completely unwarranted, especially when it's done as a "character"
piece rather than as straightforward pwp (which, let's face it, is about
erotic fantasy and thus no holds are barred).
Although I wish we (as a culture) didn't look at (some) people through the
prism of their sexual orientation, the fact remains that the way we react
towards each other depends to a certain degree on whether or not a sexual
frisson may or may not arise...
> Of course, we do know that female readers
> are *much* more likely to read and write romances, right? ^_^
Maybe not write, but certainly *read*. :-)
<snip>
[Change of topic to news readers]
> No, but Netscrape's text composer doesn't quote html body text
> correctly. And frankly, I'm comfortable with my newsreader in
> other aspects. My choice, right?
Indeed. I don't have a problem with people using whatever software they
find comfortable to use. However, when their software of choice doesn't
behave properly or impedes doing what they want to do, I feel morally
obligated to point out alternatives. :-) Choice of software is always a
compromise between ease of use, functionality (and price!). IMO, the
functionality compromises made by Netscrape just aren't worth it. :-)
Beth Winter
>
> The first half of my reply to Beth last night was largely on-topic as it
> was principally a critique of HP fanfic; this one is about far more general
> observations about fanfic, or rather slash fic, so people may wish to
> ignore it (another reason I split my reply into two posts)...
I mention some HP examples, so you're safe now ^_^
> On 28 Jan 2002, Beth Winter said:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Slash PWP (sex without plot) are, I guess, the female equivalent
> > of men looking at lesbian porn - with us being the less visual
> > gender and all.
>
> TBH lesbian pr0n doesn't do much for me (and a lot of blokes I know) -
> despite being a red-blooded male and all. :-) Then again, in most DIY
> "psychological profile"-type things I come out being very untypically male,
> and one I did recently (http://test3.thespark.com/gendertest/ - lots of
> fun, and with scientific pretensions!) was 83% sure I was a woman... :-)
The same way, not all women like slash. I know that in some
fandoms, including HP, writers and archivers get flamed to hell
and back quite often, and those messages originate in the
predominantly female fanfic community *sigh* But still, it's a
big enough margin in both cases to support a thriving "industry"
^_~
> However, the one thing that really gets me about slash is that women seem
> to have a need to ascribe homosexual tendencies to all close male
> relationships. The vast majority of blokes appear to have have no need do
> do so with regard to female ones, nor indeed fantasise about them anywhere
> near as much women appear to. I know of at least a couple of women in Trek
> fandom who seriously and energetically INSIST (not as a fantasy nor for a
> laugh) that the ONLY explanation for the Kirk/Spock or Bashir/O'Brien
> relationships is that the participants are gay, and put forward
> increasingly ludicrous canon factoids in support of this thesis, putting
> down the canon heterosexual relationships the men enjoy as nothing more
> than self-denial.
*nods* This is why *good* slash featuring a canon-hetero
character has to be justified by writing up an introduction that
delves into the hero's sexuality and semi-plausibly describes why
in the fanfic reality he's gay or (more commonly and furthermore
plausibly) bisexual. I for one only enjoy reading relationships
where there is at least a hint of canon sexual or romantic
tension between the characters - in the case of Trek,
Garak/Bashir can be considered such a one *ducks flames*
> Getting a bit psychoanalytical about this, I wonder if there's not a
> certain amount of subconscious jealousy present in this attitude, along the
> lines of "if *I* can't have him, the only reason is because he's not
> interested in women at all".
Probably yes, in some cases. Also, many women and more to the
point, girls, don't have much understanding of the male psyche
due to inexperience in serious interacting with the species
(after all, they're just a few years past the 'boys are icky'
stage); they write their chosen character as they would a girl.
This is one of my pet peeves *sigh* - just because a character's
gay doesn't mean he has to break into tears at the slightest
notion, or enjoy housework; and roles in a gay relationship don't
have to be divided into traditional male/female parts. One of the
reasons I like slash is precisely because one can explore the
different relationship dynamics, without pre-dealt roles.
> This also appears (on a different level) in fanfic which involves the
> author placing themselves in the storyline as the object of the hero's
> desires.
*crosses herself* Apage, satanas! Get thee behind me, Mary Sue!
^_^
> Sure, men fantasise about being in the hero's shoes, or in the
> case of female heroines, bedding the heroine, but they rarely consider
> voicing this out loud, Then again, perhaps it has something to do with
> men's fear of making fools of themselves by expressing their fantasies (not
> necessarily sexual ones). :-)
It might originate in the way the so-called 'traditional'
upbringing might drive men to repress their feelings with the
whole "boys don't cry" part. Also, regardless of talent women
seem more prone to trying their hand at writing; creative writing
workshops and online creative writing support groups usually have
a high ratio of females.
> > But fleshed-out (ie plot-possessing) slash is
> > often a way of experimenting with identifying with male
> > characters without having to deal with all that icky "in love
> > with a girl" stuff - in straight romance, the female reader
> > rather automatically identifies with the woman.
>
> Sorry, but I don't buy that reasoning. Obviously, women readers will
> naturally identify with female characters (doh!) but I don't see how it
> follows from that, that the (male) hero needs to enter a relationship with
> another bloke. Why is falling for another man less icky than falling for a
> girl?
Let me rephrase this: Mary Sue wants to write/read a fanfiction
about, say, Harry. She likes him (well, duh!), she wants to be
just like him, and she thinks he's the best character in the
series. But she wants Harry/herself (as she starts thinking about
him, identifying with him completely) to have a romantic
adventure. So should she make him/herself fall in love with one
of the female characters? She can't do it: she could fall, but
for one of the male characters, say Ron. So she writes it as a
Harry/Ron, with her alter-ego Harry being in love with her other
favorite character, Ron. If she wrote it as a het fic, she'd
either identify with the girl, or just be a sideline observer.
And as fanfic is writing out our fantasies, one of the most fun
things is jumping into characters' heads and *living* their
adventures.
Of course, this is just one of the reasons, and by far not the
only one ^_^ I'd go as far as to say that you'll probably find
each slash writer has her/his (yes, I've met a guy or two) own
reasons for doing what she/he does.
> And why should anyone feel that writing a not-necessarily plausible
> relationship between two men should enable women to identify with those
> characters? By introducing sex into the equation, they undermine the
> relationship entirely, and thus the characters involved. Inventing a gay
> relationship between close friends doesn't help understanding male bonding
> in the slightest.
I think it's because women in general only have a vague idea what
all this "male bonding" stuff is all about ^_^;; I've a slightly
better one, due to having almost only male friends throughout all
but the last year of highschool, but I'm still struggling to
write it plausibly in a story I'm working on...
> TBH I find this attitude a bit worrying, because whilst blokes accept that
> women can and do have very close friendships with other women, without any
> sexual content whatsoever, two blokes doing anything more together than
> attending a sports fixture is somehow "questionable". Or at least that's
> the impression I get. :-)
Blame the society for not explaining it to women ^_^ Also, when
there's a will, there's a way. Trust me, you don't want to stand
in the path of a horde of screaming slash fangirls...
> > Of course, we do know that female readers
> > are *much* more likely to read and write romances, right? ^_^
>
> Maybe not write, but certainly *read*. :-)
Write, too. And romance as in "hearts, flowers and confessions",
not just "a girl for the hero" ^_^
> <snip>
>
> [Change of topic to news readers]
>
> > No, but Netscrape's text composer doesn't quote html body text
> > correctly. And frankly, I'm comfortable with my newsreader in
> > other aspects. My choice, right?
>
> Indeed. I don't have a problem with people using whatever software they
> find comfortable to use. However, when their software of choice doesn't
> behave properly or impedes doing what they want to do, I feel morally
> obligated to point out alternatives. :-) Choice of software is always a
> compromise between ease of use, functionality (and price!). IMO, the
> functionality compromises made by Netscrape just aren't worth it. :-)
Oi, look here: I've switched to the bloody text editor now. Sig
separator's okay, see?
And anybody complaining about my non-standard smileys in this
post will be pierced through with bloodthirsty cherry tree
branches. Don't ask.
KUrt
"Richard Sliwa" <ju...@plum.cream.org> wrote in message
news:Xns91A5E1A...@195.8.69.163...
[major snip...]
> Then again, in most DIY
> "psychological profile"-type things I come out being very untypically
male,
> and one I did recently (http://test3.thespark.com/gendertest/ - lots of
> fun, and with scientific pretensions!) was 83% sure I was a woman... :-)
Don't feel bad - I got 86% sure I was a woman. Let me check ----- nope,
I'm not.
Cat
>[major snip...]
>
>> Then again, in most DIY
>> "psychological profile"-type things I come out being very untypically
>male,
>> and one I did recently (http://test3.thespark.com/gendertest/ - lots of
>> fun, and with scientific pretensions!) was 83% sure I was a woman... :-)
>
>Don't feel bad - I got 86% sure I was a woman. Let me check ----- nope,
>I'm not.
>
>KUrt
though I too got considered 86% female.........
I'm male this test seems to be alittle off to me
well eithere than or it's yet another time a couple of men screwed up the
stereo type
Beth Winter
>
> >[major snip...]
> >
> >> Then again, in most DIY
> >> "psychological profile"-type things I come out being very untypically
> >male,
> >> and one I did recently (http://test3.thespark.com/gendertest/ - lots of
> >> fun, and with scientific pretensions!) was 83% sure I was a woman... :-)
> >
> >Don't feel bad - I got 86% sure I was a woman. Let me check ----- nope,
> >I'm not.
>
>
> I'm male this test seems to be alittle off to me
>
> well eithere than or it's yet another time a couple of men screwed up the
> stereo type
Could it be that the test is biased somewhat? I got 86% female as
well, and I'm pretty sure I didn't give the same answers as y'all
^_^
Chris Share
said...
>Cat wrote:
>>
>> >[major snip...]
>> >
>> >> Then again, in most DIY
>> >> "psychological profile"-type things I come out being very untypically
>> >male,
>> >> and one I did recently (http://test3.thespark.com/gendertest/ - lots of
>> >> fun, and with scientific pretensions!) was 83% sure I was a woman... :-)
>> >
>> >Don't feel bad - I got 86% sure I was a woman. Let me check ----- nope,
>> >I'm not.
>>
>> though I too got considered 86% female.........
>>
>> I'm male this test seems to be alittle off to me
>>
>> well eithere than or it's yet another time a couple of men screwed up the
>> stereo type
>
>Could it be that the test is biased somewhat? I got 86% female as
>well, and I'm pretty sure I didn't give the same answers as y'all
>^_^
I've taken the test about 5 times now, and once it said I wqas a woman
- but in the middle of the cluster diagram thingy. The rest it's been a
man, varying from the middle to half way to the end.
chris
Joseph Romagnano
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:15:05 +0100, Beth Winter(ren...@astercity.net)
> said...
>
>>Cat wrote:
>>
>>>>[major snip...]
[snip]
It gave me 86% sure I was a man on the first pass through. Although I'm
just off-center apparently.
Joe :-)>
Donal Fagan
<jrd...@charter.net> wrote:
>It gave me 86% sure I was a man on the first pass through. Although I'm
>just off-center apparently.
It gave me 80% certain that I was a man, but showed the icon dead
center.
I think the veela question gave it away.
Donal Fagan
Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com
(Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
unterhund
> Cat wrote:
> > KUrt wrote:
> > >Don't feel bad - I got 86% sure I was a woman. Let me
> > >I'm not.
> >
> > though I too got considered 86% female.........
>
> well, and I'm pretty sure I didn't give the same answers as y'all
It's a conspiracy, I tell you! I got 86% female, too! And I'm
reasonably certain I'm not actually female (checks . . . yes, it's
still there).
--
Patrick Clark
unte...@lycos.com
http://unterhund.8m.com
Donal Fagan
wrote:
>It's a conspiracy, I tell you! I got 86% female, too! And I'm
>reasonably certain I'm not actually female (checks . . . yes, it's
>still there).
What, your remote?
unterhund
news:rt6g5uoptarf0dj58...@4ax.com...
> unterhund wrote:
> >It's a conspiracy, I tell you! I got 86% female, too! And I'm
> >reasonably certain I'm not actually female (checks . . . yes, it's
> >still there).
>
> What, your remote?
No, that moves around. I have three sons, and they understand its
value well.
Richard Sliwa
other long posts, off)
On 28 Jan 2002, Pen said:
<snip>
> In the world of Star Trek pro fiction, almost all the books are (a)
> crap and (b) action stories with very few 'character moments'. They
> are, in other words, 'boy books', and will remain 'boy books' because -
> apparently - girls will read 'boy books' but boys won't read 'girl
> books' (ie the ones with those mushy moments in which the characters
> actually interact with one another).
That's not necessarily true, though I do see a certain general validity in
it. As for Trek pro fiction, I've never read much of it (mainly because of
time contraints), but what I have read has been relatively recent (ie
published within the last 5 years or so). As somone else has suggested,
this stuff is considerably more character rather than action based.
I really liked Andrew Robinson's book about Garak, BTW (sorry, don't recall
the title off hand). And that was a *pure* character piece (not
surprisingly based on Garak's back story which Robinson had invented for
himself to play the role over the years).
> From what I've noticed, the *vast* majority of fanfic consists of
> 'character-based stories'. There may be an action plot (very
> occasionally a good one), but the essence of the story is in the
> emotions of the characters. We girls like this stuff.
<snip>
I do to. Which is the basis for my original complaint: I have yet to read a
piece of fan fic (from whatever universe I follow) which accurately depicts
the canon characters in invented situations. What draws me to most of the
series I read/watch (books/tv/movies; I've not encountered a standalone
work which has engendered fan fic...) is the characters rather than the
situations. I don't have a problem with "action figures" being reflective
or characters better known as thinkers to have a bit of action.
The essence of fanfic (as I understand it at least) is to invent new
situations for the characters and see how they react. When their reactions
are completely out of kilter with the canon source, I lose interest (at
best), get pissed off (most of the time) or write rude comments (at worst -
this happens very rarely, and only when I have fanfic stuffed down my
throat).
> JKR presents an excellent mixture of adventure plot and emotional plot,
> which is presumably why her stories work for male and female readers.
> Fanfic just arises because we want more. (Actually, I think all source
> material must provide something in the way of 'character moments'
> otherwise there would be nothing for fanfic writers to use - or even to
> be interested in using.)
Absolutely. Action without character is fun for a couple of hours in a
cinema to escape the rain, but little else.
As for the Potterverse, there's an additional problem with writing fanfic
(at least at this stage in the process), which is that we are dealing with
an incomplete extended story arc. There are lots of things we don't know
about several of the characters, and a lot of the fanfic is devoted to
filling out their back-stories before JKR does. As a result, most of this
stuff will appear very silly in the fullness of time, even if it doesn't
right now.
But even so, I still expect the back-stories or future events to lead to or
stem from the things we see in the books to date, and again I see very
little of that in all the HP fanfic I've read.
> Now slash, there's another thing.
>
> Why do women write slash? Lotsa possible reasons. F'rinstance, a
> good many ladies find the idea of m/m sex rather exciting. (Sauce for
> the goose, sauce for the gander, neh?) Sometimes, women who like the
> idea perceive relationships within the canon material that those who
> are not predisposed that way simply don't notice: consider, there is a
> lot of Picard/Q material around. There are clues in the onscreen
> material if you want to find them, but if you aren't looking, you won't
> see them. (Garak/Bashir, OTOH..!)
Oh, I can certainly see the possibilities for Q/JLP slash (though TBH not
voluntary on JLP's part...). As for Garak/Bashir, as I said elsewhere I
think it mostly stems from a misunderstanding of the male psyche rather
than a wish to see m/m action. Why not invent other characters to have
these relationships? If it's a character piece, how can G/B slash be in any
way true to who these people are?
> Then again, in many of the fanficced universes, there is no obvious
> female counterpart for the most desirable male(s), so rather than
> invent a character, two of the males are fitted together.
<snip>
I agree entirely that there are far too few strong female characters in
fiction generally. I'm thus even more surprised that so many female writers
write either male parts or female parts badly - Janeway (a character
invented by a woman and written for the first 3 years by her!) is an
appalling character, who permanently returns either to maternal or mating
instincts, getting protective for the younger members of her crew, or gooey
eyed over the nearest male. It seemed to work for Kirk, but Janeway just
comes across as soppy.
> By contrast, I've never met a female fan who collects model starships
> or shows honest interest in the technical specs.
Actually, relatively few men do either. It's mostly teenage or younger boys
who show an interest in this side of scifi fandom, and it's difficult to
blame them as it's a natural progression from playing with cars. Not that
*I* ever found that interesting at any age. :-)
<snip>
> There are rather more than 1,000
> pages of lists of stories <boggle> for HP at fanfiction.net, and in a
> perusal of the first dozen pages I found very little that even tempted
> me to open a file, and practically nothing I wanted to read to the end.
> (Not content with demanding decent spelling and grammar skills, I also
> close a file as soon as someone mentions the new American exchange
> student [Ms Mary Sue], anyone graduating from Hogwarts, the
> pre-commencement banquet, or eating blueberry waffles for breakfast.
> This narrows the field enormously, before I have even got to the
> question of effective writing skills and plausible characterisation.
> Harrumph.)
Your criteria appear to coincide with my own, quite perfectly!
> However, there is some good stuff - it just depends what you want. As
> a Girl, I want some toe-curling moments of character interaction (no,
> not necessarily Sex, Passion or even Romance, simply something that
> increases my understanding of the characters); to me a plausible
> action/adventure plot is preferable but not essential. Quite possibly
> you feel otherwise.
Not in the slightest. For me, the appeal of the HP books was exactly the
character interaction and development, not the plots (which are TAIAP run-
of-the-mill whodunnits). It's also that which prevented me from reading
them before I saw the first movie, as the impression I'd had until then was
that they *were* about action rather than characters.
Go on then - please give me some pointers to the "good stuff". :-)
> [BTW, as a sometime Trekkie myself, the best-ever fanfic I have read in
> any genre was Macedon/Pegeel's Voyager series, which considerably
> improved upon the television show. Hmm. On reflection, that isn't
> much of a compliment.]
Quite. I refuse to have anything to do with that bastard child (and it's
Voyager which turned me from a Trekkie into an ex-Trekkie). :-)
Beth Winter
>
> (this has been waiting a few days to be answered; I've been putting it, and
> other long posts, off)
>
> On 28 Jan 2002, Pen said:
>
> <snip>
>
> the title off hand). And that was a *pure* character piece (not
> surprisingly based on Garak's back story which Robinson had invented for
> himself to play the role over the years).
That'd be "A stitch in time". Truly remarkable, especially as it's his
first novel, and also a cut above the rest of even current ST stuff -
which still isn't exactly brilliant. The best ones tend to be written by
estabilished SF writers like Vonda McIntyre, Alan Dean Foster or James
Blish, with Robinson being an exception.
*Beth pats her signed copy of A Stitch In Time*
--
Beth Winter, PSP terrorist - New Millenium Division
Richard Sliwa
> Richard Sliwa wrote:
<snipperama>
> Now do be a dear and send all this to Yen - one of the reasons
> people write fanfics is to get feedback and make themselves
> better! AFAIK she's not one of those (and those happen) who can't
> take honest, constructive criticism, and I'm sure she'll
> appreciate it.
I must admit I'm a bit reluctant to do so. I do know that my written style
can be very easily taken as far more abrasive and aggressive than I intend
it to be (hey, I've *never* claimed to be a good writer!), and some of the
replies I've had to stuff written in this newsgroup have proved that to be
the case on several occasions (hence my abuse of smilies in an attempt to
soften my style, which also doesn't always work...). :-)
I genuinely try to be helpful to people, but more often than not, I come
across as supercilious or bossy (my people skills aren't up to much
either). :-) I certainly don't wish to insult her or to put her off doing
something she obviously enjoys. She didn't push it in my direction and I'm
reluctant to come at her out of the blue with a catalogue of criticism,
especially as to do her justice I'd have to go into the nitty-gritty of her
text again which I don't think I could do.
I'll think about it, though, and I might get around to it at some stage...
> Makes me wish all my fanfics weren't manga, so I could show one
> to you ^_^
Go on, give me a try. At least as I know next to nothing about that
universe, I won't be criticising you for bad character continuity. :-)
<snip>
> Hint: be wary around free-submission sites - fanfiction.net is a
> prime example of what trash can appear in those. There's quite a
> few non-submission or reviewed archives, and those often have
> quality fics.
I'm still waiting to be pointed in the direction of some. :-) Going by
reviews on fanfic sites (whatever the relative quality of the work) is
difficult as reviewers don't know what I like and so the effort is useless.
I've looked at several highly rated fics in my time, and have always found
them wanting.
As you know a bit more about me than most, I look to you to be my guide in
this infernal maze. :-)
Wow. This post is a lot shorter than I thought it'd be - I still have Part
II to look forward to dealing with, but I'm afraid that'll have to wait
until tomorrow (unless there are another 300+ interesting posts to read...)
:-)
Richard Sliwa
<snip>
> *Beth pats her signed copy of A Stitch In Time*
Does he know you also enjoy slash fic about his character? :-)
Talking of which... What the hell did I do with *my* signed copy? (probably
lost somewhere during my travels around the UK over the last couple of
years). :-(
Beth Winter
>
> On 01 Feb 2002, Beth Winter said:
>
> <snip>
>
> > *Beth pats her signed copy of A Stitch In Time*
>
> Does he know you also enjoy slash fic about his character? :-)
I didn't tell him ^_^
> Talking of which... What the hell did I do with *my* signed copy? (probably
> lost somewhere during my travels around the UK over the last couple of
> years). :-(
:( condolences
--
Beth Winter
Chris Share
said...
>That'd be "A stitch in time". Truly remarkable, especially as it's his
>first novel, and also a cut above the rest of even current ST stuff -
>which still isn't exactly brilliant. The best ones tend to be written by
>estabilished SF writers like Vonda McIntyre, Alan Dean Foster or James
>Blish, with Robinson being an exception.
And of course Peter David - never seen a book of his that wasn't at
least good, and some are *very* good.
Diane Duane's are very good too, Michael Jan Friedman usually writes
good ones too. Judy and Gar Reeves-Stevens (may not be quite correct)
books are usually quite ambitious, and seem to pull it off quite well -
tho a bit technobabbly in places.
There are a few others that are usually good, but I can't think of
OTTOMH. I read pretty much all the star trek ones I can get my hands
on, though a couple are difficult to finish...
>*Beth pats her signed copy of A Stitch In Time*
<jealous>
Haven't got a single signed book, apart from CJ and T5E...
chris
KUrt
"Chris Share" <ch...@caesium.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.16c4092ac...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 02:27:09 +0100, Beth Winter(ren...@astercity.net)
> said...
> >That'd be "A stitch in time". Truly remarkable, especially as it's his
> >first novel, and also a cut above the rest of even current ST stuff -
> >which still isn't exactly brilliant. The best ones tend to be written by
> >estabilished SF writers like Vonda McIntyre, Alan Dean Foster or James
> >Blish, with Robinson being an exception.
>
> And of course Peter David - never seen a book of his that wasn't at
> least good, and some are *very* good.
> Diane Duane's are very good too, Michael Jan Friedman usually writes
> good ones too. Judy and Gar Reeves-Stevens (may not be quite correct)
You did notice that Diane Duane dropped a line in the newsgroup the other
day, didn't you?
At least, it looked right enough to be hers.
Yera Thiatt
wrote:
Richard Sliwa said:
> [ criteria for fanfic and request for recommendations ]
Going over my own list of favorite fanfics, I'm finding that most of
them are short humor/dark twist-ending stories where characterization
and continuity aren't so much of an issue. Most of the longer,
serious works that I like have at least one serious (IMHO, YMMV)
continuity problem, but the stories are good enough that I'm willing
to overlook it.
The one author I found who more or less matches what you seem to be
looking for (decent grammar/spelling, adheres fairly closely to canon
characterization and continuity) is Angie Astravic. Her stories
are funny and have interesting plot twists, and, although not as
emotionally engaging as some other fanfics, the character reactions
in them have always rung true to me. She's written a number of
interrelated short stories, but any of these would make a good
starting point:
Under the Rose Bush - http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=21522
A plausible explanation for why Harry doesn't have a famous wizard
card
An Unwelcome Visitor -
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=26790
Snape, hunting for Sirius Black, comes to Privet Drive and butts
heads with the Dursleys. A good balance between nasty Snape and
heroic Snape.
The Butterflies - http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=312156
A fluffy title for a definitely non-fluffy fic. Very character-
driven: emphasizes Lupin's quiet strength, Sirius's anger and
impulsiveness, Fudge's bigotry and willful blindness, and again,
Snape's nasty and heroic sides.
These are some other authors/stories I thought were particularly good,
although not (necessarily) strictly canon:
Humor
-----
Elizabeth Notrab: Antiques Roadshow ~ Wizard Style
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=14820
MiniNerva: Of Underclothes and Magical Eyes
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=116641
Springrain: I Love the Moon and Hate the Stars
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=18208
Dark Twist Endings
------------------
Flourish: Apocalypse
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=7677
Colin: A Glimpse of the Future and Redemption
These stories used to be on fanfiction.net, but they seem to have
gone away. If anyone knows if they've been moved somewhere else,
please let me know.
Longer Serious Stories
----------------------
Fearthainn: The Past Didn't Go Anywhere
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Fearthainn/The_Past_Didnt_Go_Anywhere
A Draco/Ginny romance set about a dozen years after the end of Harry's
seventh year. Malfoy is presented as a good guy, which is non-canon,
but is still sarcastic and obnoxious and hostile towards Harry, and
events presented in flashback provide a fairly believable explanation
for his conversion.
Rebecca J. Anderson: The Potions Master's Apprentice and sequels
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/R_J_Anderson
A very intense Snape romance. She goes with the explanation that
Snape is faking most of his unpleasantness to convince Voldemort of
his loyalty and toughen his students up, which I don't really buy,
but I'm willing to accept it for the sake of the story. Snape's love
interest is one of the few truly likeable original characters I've run
across, and absolutely not a Mary Sue.
Rhysenn - Irresistible Poison
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Rhysenn/Irresistible_Poison
This is Harry/Malfoy slash, partly justified by the fact that Malfoy
has drunk a love potion. I don't believe that Harry and Malfoy are
gay or could have feelings for each other even if they were, but this
is very intensely written and I like the comeuppance aspect of having
Malfoy fall in love with his worst enemy.
--
Yera Thiatt
Chris Share
said...
>
>"Chris Share" <ch...@caesium.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:MPG.16c4092ac...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 02:27:09 +0100, Beth Winter(ren...@astercity.net)
>> said...
>> >That'd be "A stitch in time". Truly remarkable, especially as it's his
>> >first novel, and also a cut above the rest of even current ST stuff -
>> >which still isn't exactly brilliant. The best ones tend to be written by
>> >estabilished SF writers like Vonda McIntyre, Alan Dean Foster or James
>> >Blish, with Robinson being an exception.
>>
>> And of course Peter David - never seen a book of his that wasn't at
>> least good, and some are *very* good.
>> Diane Duane's are very good too, Michael Jan Friedman usually writes
>> good ones too. Judy and Gar Reeves-Stevens (may not be quite correct)
>
>You did notice that Diane Duane dropped a line in the newsgroup the other
>day, didn't you?
>
>At least, it looked right enough to be hers.
>
>KUrt
Oh yeah... noticed it at the time, but forgot it again when I wrote
that. I know she was an afp regular at one time...
chris
Pen
<ju...@plum.cream.org> wrote:
> (this has been waiting a few days to be answered; I've been putting it, and
> other long posts, off)
>
> On 28 Jan 2002, Pen said:
>
> <snip>
>
> > In the world of Star Trek pro fiction, almost all the books are (a)
> > crap and (b) action stories with very few 'character moments'. They
> > are, in other words, 'boy books', and will remain 'boy books' because -
> > apparently - girls will read 'boy books' but boys won't read 'girl
> > books' (ie the ones with those mushy moments in which the characters
> > actually interact with one another).
>
> That's not necessarily true, though I do see a certain general validity in
> it. As for Trek pro fiction, I've never read much of it (mainly because of
> time contraints), but what I have read has been relatively recent (ie
> published within the last 5 years or so). As somone else has suggested,
> this stuff is considerably more character rather than action based.
I gave up on ST pro fiction shortly after I realised that I had
despised almost every one I'd bought. Which was quite a while ago.
I'm now virtually an ex-Trekkie, so that while it's nice to think the
books have improved, they're too late for me.
> I do to. Which is the basis for my original complaint: I have yet to read a
> piece of fan fic (from whatever universe I follow) which accurately depicts
> the canon characters in invented situations. What draws me to most of the
> series I read/watch (books/tv/movies; I've not encountered a standalone
> work which has engendered fan fic...) is the characters rather than the
> situations. I don't have a problem with "action figures" being reflective
> or characters better known as thinkers to have a bit of action.
>
> The essence of fanfic (as I understand it at least) is to invent new
> situations for the characters and see how they react. When their reactions
> are completely out of kilter with the canon source, I lose interest (at
> best), get pissed off (most of the time) or write rude comments (at worst -
> this happens very rarely, and only when I have fanfic stuffed down my
> throat).
There's so much flexibility in what people want from fanfic, really.
Some want to see more of the same - for whom the highest compliment
would be 'that read just like an episode'. Some want to rewrite canon
to make it 'better', reconcile apparent contradictions, or fill in the
gaps. [F'rinstance, did the Enterprise-D crew grieve after Tasha's
death? How exactly did Sirius try to kill Snape and how exactly did
James save him?] Some people like to speculate about what happens next
- there's a lot of that in HP fanfic, obviously. Others want to see
their favourite character in a different situation - usually an
'intensified' situation - which necessarily involves reactions not seen
in canon, cos otherwise it wouldn't be a 'different' situation, natch.
For myself, if I can 'hear' the character saying the lines given
him/her by the fanfic author, I'm happy (well, within limits). [You
could Google for 'Teach me to hear the Mermaids Singing' by carleton97,
a very good Buffy fic written in Cordelia's voice.]
But we all have different amounts of flexibility here, and different
personal takes on the characters. [I mean, some people argue that
Data doesn't have emotions!]
> As for the Potterverse, there's an additional problem with writing fanfic
> (at least at this stage in the process), which is that we are dealing with
> an incomplete extended story arc. There are lots of things we don't know
> about several of the characters, and a lot of the fanfic is devoted to
> filling out their back-stories before JKR does. As a result, most of this
> stuff will appear very silly in the fullness of time, even if it doesn't
> right now.
This is probably true, although some things may never be completely
explained. The filling in of gaps in canon is one of the more fun
things to do in fanfic. And - well, does it *matter* that the stuff
will probably turn out to be inaccurate?
I kinda agree on the problem of incomplete canon. I never felt the
slightest urge to write fan stories while there was fresh TNG to see,
and only wanted to expand the, hmm, the known universe when there was
no more to come. (The films don't count. Ick, ick, and @@@$*^^@@!!!)
But I rather like reading HP stories that offer a possible path...
<shrug>
> Oh, I can certainly see the possibilities for Q/JLP slash (though TBH not
> voluntary on JLP's part...). As for Garak/Bashir, as I said elsewhere I
> think it mostly stems from a misunderstanding of the male psyche rather
> than a wish to see m/m action. Why not invent other characters to have
> these relationships? If it's a character piece, how can G/B slash be in any
> way true to who these people are?
I've read an interesting rumour that Andrew Robinson and Alexander
Siddig had a secret pact to play those characters as gay lovers. No
text, just... I have to say, once I knew that the characters were
slashed together in fanfic, re-watching the first-season scene in which
they met for the first time was a revelation. Try it! ;)
The point of slashing a relationship is surely that *those* are the
characters the writer wants to investigate. One could perfectly well
invent new characters, but what would be the point of inventing someone
Just Like Garak (or Sirius Black) Only Bisexual, and someone Just Like
Bashir (or Remus Lupin) Only Bisexual?
Misunderstanding of the male psyche - well, probably.
> Your criteria appear to coincide with my own, quite perfectly!
> Go on then - please give me some pointers to the "good stuff". :-)
Try http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/melissaa/downfromthetree.html
and its (IMO better) sequel (linked from that page), which are about
the Snape/Marauders days. I also recommend
http://www.sugarquill.net/AtE/AtEToC.html though as it is (a) a work
in progress, and (b) set after all seven volumes and necessarily
involves a certain amount of speculation as to who survives and who
doesn't, you may not fancy it. I'm impressed, though.
For a little bit of post-GoF fluff, and a giggle, go to
http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/voxmaille/family.html
And for a proper explanation of an incident in PoA,
http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/voxmaille/fear.html
You will notice that these all come from the Sugarquill site. I'm not
saying all the fics there are works of art, or even craft, but they
have at least been beta-read.
> Quite. I refuse to have anything to do with that bastard child (and it's
> Voyager which turned me from a Trekkie into an ex-Trekkie). :-)
You weren't born on 6/6/60 in Hong Kong, were you? ;)
Pen
cheDpa
> -----
>
> Elizabeth Notrab: Antiques Roadshow ~ Wizard Style
> http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=14820
>
> MiniNerva: Of Underclothes and Magical Eyes
> http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=116641
>
> Springrain: I Love the Moon and Hate the Stars
> http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=18208
>
RATS!....these links don't work 8(
Not Found
The fequester URL/read.php was not found on this server.
Yera Thiatt
[ very bad word deleted ]
You're right, they don't. Mutter ... grumble ... worked just fine
last night when I typed 'em all in ... Oh, wait a minute. Going
directly to http://www.fanfiction net, I get:
FanFiction.Net is currently undergoing scheduled maintenance.
Service will resume as early as 6AM Saturday, Feb 2.
Try again later, then. Note that that site runs on California time,
also that their down times often last longer than they say they will.
--
Yera Thiatt
cheDpa
> [ very bad word deleted ]
>
> You're right, they don't. Mutter ... grumble ... worked just fine
> last night when I typed 'em all in ... Oh, wait a minute. Going
> directly to http://www.fanfiction net, I get:
>
> FanFiction.Net is currently undergoing scheduled maintenance.
>
> Service will resume as early as 6AM Saturday, Feb 2.
>
> Try again later, then. Note that that site runs on California time,
> also that their down times often last longer than they say they will.
>
> --
> Yera Thiatt
Hey thanks, I'll try again tomarrow night......
Richard Sliwa
travel, so I printed out most of the stuff suggested here and elsewhere;
some of the longer stories were transferred to my (non-net-enabled) laptop.
I estimate that I've ended up reading the best part of 1,000 pages of fic
since last Friday. :-)
A few comments...
On 01 Feb 2002, Yera Thiatt said:
> Going over my own list of favorite fanfics, I'm finding that most of
> them are short humor/dark twist-ending stories where characterization
> and continuity aren't so much of an issue. Most of the longer,
> serious works that I like have at least one serious (IMHO, YMMV)
> continuity problem, but the stories are good enough that I'm willing
> to overlook it.
Having read through the stuff you recommended, I've come to the realisation
that decent writing is far more important to me than continuity. Storyline
continuity, that is - I do remain very adamant about keeping the characters
true to themselves, as that's what I came to love about the HP universe in
the first place.
<snip - Angie Astravic>
> An Unwelcome Visitor -
> http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=26790
One paragraph had me laughing so much I thought someone on the train would
call for medical assistance. The reason: the clothes. I looked at myself:
black DMs - check; black Levis: check; black trenchcoat: check. :-)
Angie's work has left me full of admiration. I really can't recommend it
highly enough.
One to be read *after* Butterflies (which you mentioned:
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=312156), whose title I'm
deliberately not mentioning because I'd not want to spoil it:
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=150716 - has left me with a
thirst for the next chapter which *almost* matches my impatience for Book
Five.
I was a bit put out by the fact that it (like a lot of Angie's stories)
revolve around Harry being a "Super-Animagus", but after a while I managed
to suspend my disbelief and the story just went from strength to strength.
I can see a potentially huge plot-hole there, but it could just as easily
be part of where the story's going. I'll be emailing Angie to ask about it.
Angie's sense of humour and style are either very similar to JKR's, or
she's done an astonishingly good job of a respectful pastiche.
> Elizabeth Notrab: Antiques Roadshow ~ Wizard Style
> http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=14820
YUK. I absolutely, positively, hated that one. IMO, YMMV, etc, etc.
Completely apart from the fact that they didn't need to go to Richmond
Virginia for an Antiques Roadshow (strangely enough, the original UK
version is just starting on the TV). :-) Richmond London or Richmond
Yorkshire would have been a lot easier to get to. :-)
The other short stories you listed just didn't do it for me.
> Fearthainn: The Past Didn't Go Anywhere
>
>
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Fearthainn/The_Past_Didnt_Go_Anywhere
My main problem with that one was that it's like a TV soap opera spinoff.
It needs some VERY serious editing and cutting down on length. I know it's
ongoing and I have very little interest in where it's going. I didn't need
to look at her profile to discover that the author is Canadian: the
Canadian sequences were much better written and given much more prominence
than the London ones. Also, there wasn't nearly enough of the magical
community.
> Rebecca J. Anderson: The Potions Master's Apprentice and sequels
>
> http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/R_J_Anderson
I completely lost interest in this one within the first couple of
screenfulls. Perhaps it's because it was gearing up to be a romance which I
already know isn't my style at all.
> Rhysenn - Irresistible Poison
>
> http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Rhysenn/Irresistible_Poison
I must admit that after the first chapter, I lost patience and basically
skimmed through the rest. The setup as you described it (very accurately)
was intriguing and was enough to keep me interested. Again, though, the
whole story could have done with some major editing and shortening. It's
another bloody soap opera. I could see Harry behaving the way he does at
the beginning, so at least kudos to her for that. However, the last
sentences of the latest chapter to date sent the characterisation straight
down the pan for me.
Thanks anyway for many hours of enjoyment. :-)
Pen
<ju...@plum.cream.org> wrote:
> I've been away for the last few days and needed to do a fair bit of train
> travel, so I printed out most of the stuff suggested here and elsewhere;
> some of the longer stories were transferred to my (non-net-enabled) laptop.
> I estimate that I've ended up reading the best part of 1,000 pages of fic
> since last Friday. :-)
Not Yera Thiatt, but I've been wondering how you got on with the
fanfics! I shall have to have a look at the Angie Astravic stuff.
Did you see the links I recommended? Re-posting below, in case.
Try http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/melissaa/downfromthetree.html
and its (IMO better) sequel (linked from that page), which are about
the Snape/Marauders days. I also recommend
http://www.sugarquill.net/AtE/AtEToC.html though as it is (a) a work
in progress, and (b) set after all seven volumes and necessarily
involves a certain amount of speculation as to who survives and who
doesn't, you may not fancy it. I'm impressed, though.
For a little bit of post-GoF fluff, and a giggle, go to
http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/voxmaille/family.html
And for a proper explanation of an incident in PoA,
http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/voxmaille/fear.html - this one has
become part of my 'personal canon'.
You will notice that these all come from the Sugarquill site. I'm not
saying all the fics there are works of art, or even craft, but they
have at least been beta-read.
Pen
Richard Sliwa
<snip>
> Did you see the links I recommended? Re-posting below, in case.
Yep, I saw them all, and didn't forget about commenting on them. I simply
didn't have the time last night, as I wanted a bit of a break and started
reading some of the other 600+ (!) messages posted here since I'd left.
Still over 300 to go... :-)
Thanks for your suggestions, Pen, and your repost has saved me the trouble
of seeking out the original.
Before I comment, though, you ended your previous post with
> You weren't born on 6/6/60 in Hong Kong, were you? ;)
I've spend some significant time trying to work out the significance, and
am completely stumped. Please put me out of my misery! :-)
(I'm not *quite* that old - you're out by 2 years and 3 days, and I've
never been further east than Moscow, but I do have a brother-in-law who was
brought up in Hong Kong, if that's any help?)
> Try http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/melissaa/downfromthetree.html
> and its (IMO better) sequel (linked from that page), which are about
> the Snape/Marauders days.
That was indeed good, but Arabella's "sequel" at
http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/arabella/downfromthetreecon.html was a
gut-wrenchingly accurate description of how I'd have imagined the events to
have gone down, had I ever thought about it. Perhaps I've prefered not to,
waiting for JKR to fill in the gaps in books to come. I also thought that
Arabella used the split time-frame to better effect.
The style of writing (on top of the Americanisms, which after a few days
aren't grating on me as much as they used to) is VERY different from JKR's.
Both Melissa and Arabella write with little of the humour JKR uses and a
lot more melodrama, but I suppose it's just as effective in telling a
story.
> I also recommend
> http://www.sugarquill.net/AtE/AtEToC.html though as it is (a) a work
> in progress, and (b) set after all seven volumes and necessarily
> involves a certain amount of speculation as to who survives and who
> doesn't, you may not fancy it. I'm impressed, though.
I didn't have a problem with either (a) or (b) - as I said before, I don't
have a problem with intelligent extrapolation of what has happened before
"our" time (viz the two fics above) or indeed after This one). As long as
the characterisation has a canon continuity, and the chain of events isn't
implausible within the canon universe, I'm happy. Certainly neither of
those reservations apply to that extraodinarily elaborate imagining of our
post-Book Seven heroes. Kudos to the authors for setting the story very
much within the magical community as well, unlike one of Yera's, which more
or less gave up on giving the characters any magical abilities at all, and
losing all sense of what the magical community is about.
However, I had similar qualms to the ones I mentioned last night about one
or two of Yera's recommendations - it went on forever, as if they were
being paid by the word, and again it was like a soap opera spinoff script.
The style was engaging, but a bit too melodramatic for my usual taste,
despite the efforts at introducing humour.
My main regret though, is that the six main characters in the story (to
date) must be the unluckiest humans ever born! EVERY time they've got their
collective and/or individual acts together, something comes along to
shatter their happiness. And I can see similar problems on the horizon for
those (slightly) in the background: the (surviving) Weasleys, etc. I can
see that part of the reason is to have cause to continue the storyline, but
well, enough is enough! :-)
The whole thing (style, storyline, etc) reminded me very much of Virginia
Andrews' "Flowers in the Attic" trilogy (tetralogy?) which I read several
years ago, and which I eventually abandoned due to the never-ending spiral
of misery.
Although I must admit that I liked one of the phrases from that: Harry has
a "nobility complex". Sums him up pretty well, IMO. :-)
> For a little bit of post-GoF fluff, and a giggle, go to
> http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/voxmaille/family.html
That one, I *REALLY* adored. If I were closer to Ron's age, I'd have been
bright red reading it. As it is, though, I read the whole thing with a grin
from ear to ear, remembering a similar event in my own life.
> And for a proper explanation of an incident in PoA,
> http://www.sugarquill.net/archivehp/voxmaille/fear.html - this one has
> become part of my 'personal canon'.
Yes, please. MORE LIKE THAT! A wonderful creative use of an unexplained
canon silence, utterly and totally in character, exceptionally moving, and
well-written to boot. See, I'm an old softie after all. :-)
> You will notice that these all come from the Sugarquill site. I'm not
> saying all the fics there are works of art, or even craft, but they
> have at least been beta-read.
I've since looked at lots of stuff on beta-read sites and I agree that it's
head and shoulders above the usual dross. That said, some stuff has got
through which I find significantly sub-standard.
Thanks again for all your recommendations, Pen, and for giving me something
to read on my long weekend away from home!
Back to volume 2 of "His Dark Materials" now... :-)
Pen
<ju...@plum.cream.org> wrote:
> Thanks for your suggestions, Pen, and your repost has saved me the trouble
> of seeking out the original.
>
> Before I comment, though, you ended your previous post with
>
> > You weren't born on 6/6/60 in Hong Kong, were you? ;)
>
> I've spend some significant time trying to work out the significance, and
> am completely stumped. Please put me out of my misery! :-)
<grin> I think you made some comments in an earlier post with which I
completely agreed - about what you want and emphatically don't want
from fanfic. I was wondering whether you might be my lost twin...
I'll snip your responses to those stories, but I'm glad to have found
stuff you enjoyed. Have you passed your comments on to the authors?
If not, may I do so?
Pen
Richard Sliwa
<snip Pen knows what :-) >
><grin> I think you made some comments in an earlier post with which I
> completely agreed - about what you want and emphatically don't want
> from fanfic. I was wondering whether you might be my lost twin...
Ah. That was one possibility which hadn't occurred to me. :-) Twins or not,
it's nice to find a kindred spirit.
> I'll snip your responses to those stories, but I'm glad to have found
> stuff you enjoyed. Have you passed your comments on to the authors?
> If not, may I do so?
No, I haven't. I have no idea why I'm so reluctant to do so, as I'm not
usually this bashful. The only author with whom I shall get in touch is
Angie as I have some direct and specific comments to make about the future
of her ongoing storyline.
Please feel free to make whatever use of my comments you see fit, including
passing them on to the authors, with or without my details. They're welcome
to shout at me if they want. :-)
Marysia
wrote:
>> Now slash, there's another thing.
>
>Oh, I can certainly see the possibilities for Q/JLP slash (though TBH not
>voluntary on JLP's part...). As for Garak/Bashir, as I said elsewhere I
>think it mostly stems from a misunderstanding of the male psyche rather
>than a wish to see m/m action. Why not invent other characters to have
>these relationships? If it's a character piece, how can G/B slash be in any
>way true to who these people are?
Why not invent new characters? Because we want to write about
characters we already know and care about. And because slash is just
another interpretation of existing events like most other fanfic.
How can slash be true to the characters? Well it never can completely
unless the author really does decide to make a character gay and put
them with the character you did but I don't see that it's any less
true than non slash with a character of the opposite sex that they
don't get together with in the real thing. It's all about
interpretation. Slash really only needs to change one character
aspect, if any. What if Harry were gay. Or even what if Draco is gay,
we have no proof from the books that he's not. Even with Harry, a
crush on Cho is hardly indicative of his sexuality. I've known gay men
who were still telling themselves they weren't gay when they were in
their 20's, still vaguely chasing women.
--
Marysia in Scotland, www.marysia.com - remove the "spanner" to email
You can wrap it up in ribbons, you can slip it in your sock. But don't take
it out in public or they will stick you in the dock and you won't come back
Marysia
wrote:
>> Hint: be wary around free-submission sites - fanfiction.net is a
>> prime example of what trash can appear in those. There's quite a
>> few non-submission or reviewed archives, and those often have
>> quality fics.
>
>I'm still waiting to be pointed in the direction of some. :-) Going by
>reviews on fanfic sites (whatever the relative quality of the work) is
>difficult as reviewers don't know what I like and so the effort is useless.
>I've looked at several highly rated fics in my time, and have always found
>them wanting.
>As you know a bit more about me than most, I look to you to be my guide in
>this infernal maze. :-)
Finding good fic can be very difficult. fictionalley.org is a great
site with loads of HP fic but not the easiest place to navigate.
I always look for long, preferrably finished, stories so try the
'Schnoogle' section of that site.
I can recommend anything by Cassandra Claire and Paradign of
Unvertainty by Lori is also good, as is Dracaena Draco by Al. Also
Rebirth by Irina if you're a Ginny fan. Unfortunately I'm big into
Harry/Draco slash so anything further I could point you to would
probably not be something you'd want to read.
If you do like H/D check out Irresistable Poison by Rhyssen and Love
Under Will by Aja.
Marysia
wrote:
>> Rhysenn - Irresistible Poison
>> http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Rhysenn/Irresistible_Poison
>
>I must admit that after the first chapter, I lost patience and basically
>skimmed through the rest. The setup as you described it (very accurately)
>was intriguing and was enough to keep me interested. Again, though, the
>whole story could have done with some major editing and shortening. It's
>another bloody soap opera. I could see Harry behaving the way he does at
>the beginning, so at least kudos to her for that. However, the last
>sentences of the latest chapter to date sent the characterisation straight
>down the pan for me.
I think it's a different strokes for different folks kinda thing. I
like to think I'm a fairly intelligent and discerning person and I
love this story. I also know it's hugely popular among the fanfic
community and I and it's other fans would probably skin Rhyssen alive
if she tried to cut any of it :)
OTOH I never could figure out why so many people think the Lord of the
Rings is so great. I have no trouble with long books but I've never
been able to get through it. I just lose interest. But obviously it
must be good cause so many other people love it.
Marysia
wrote:
>TBH I find this attitude a bit worrying, because whilst blokes accept that
>women can and do have very close friendships with other women, without any
>sexual content whatsoever, two blokes doing anything more together than
>attending a sports fixture is somehow "questionable". Or at least that's
>the impression I get. :-)
Not at all. It's just that when it involves two attractive men we get
off on pretending that it's questionable :)
I'm sure there are people that take it too far, there are always
people who get a little bit scary about their obsessions, but don't
let the few and far between lead you to believe that the majority are
doing anything more than having a bit of a titillating laugh.