Confurence 8 observations
Monika Livingstone
1/29/97
FROM: Dave White TO: All and sundry concerned
My wife, Monika Livingstone, and I attended Confurence 8. We have seen
some things that have concerned us, and our fear is that there is a
potential for disaster for the Con in the future.
We have always enjoyed łfunny animals,˛ animation, and childrenąs
literature using animals as metaphor. We never thought we would see the
things that have evolved in furry fandom. We never thought weąd see the
things that have been drawn using peopleąs characters.
Monikaąs fear for several years has been a police raid at Confurence
caused by some irate parent calling the cops because his or her child saw
something in the area of the Artistsą Gallery Row. Since it is usually
situated in a public area of the hotel, any hotel guest might wander
through.
Well, a raid finally occured. It was brought about because a seller of
video tapes turned in another merchant selling what was alleged to be
copyright infringed bootleg tapes. Not only did the police take the tapes,
but I am told that other merchandise was confiscated as well. Pornography
was cited as to the reason. It happened on Sunday morning before the
dealerąs room was opened and before most of the merchants were in the
room.
If the police had wanted to, they could legally have looked over every
table and confiscated anything that gave them probable cause for an
obcenity or copyright infringement charge. Knowing that there is a large
amount of sexually explicit material in the dealerąs room, I could only
imagine the officerąs finding all kinds of reasons to confiscate items,
and dealers finding themselves explaining themselves before a judge. The
hotel has the right to let the police on to their property and Confurence
could do nothing about it. I donąt know what the person who was raided is
going to have to face, but now the con is on the cops watchlist and they
may come back next year.
The Artistąs Gallery tables were most worrysome as they were set in a
public area on the mezzenine floor. At one end were public restrooms, and
a wandering guest, not part of the convention, would have access to it. At
the other end of the gallery was a video game room, and I saw a few kids
in there who were hotel guests and not belonging to anyone at the con. I
find that children are really attracted to big furry costumes and
anthropomorphic artwork in general. I wouldnąt be surprising if a parent
accused someone of using sexual toon art try to lure their kids into some
illicit activity.
Think about it folks. We see people being accused of child molestation all
the time on the tube. Itąs almost fashionable to claim it. Michael Jackson
found out the hard way, whether or not he was innocent.
As I walked by the tables to see what was being put out for sale, I
realized that the stuff was pretty raw and graphic. One thing especially
got my attention. The Animal Magnetism CD-ROM was playing in slide show
mode in the Artistąs Gallery, and some extremely graphic images were there
for all to see.
Now think about a hotel guest having a kid who wants to go play on the
videos walking by and taking a look at those images. The kid tells Mom and
Dad and the next thing you know....
There were other things at the con that may get folks into trouble. One
being the Caberet. While Monika was helping the dancers with their makeup,
someone put the tape of last yearąs dance on for us to see what they do. I
havenąt seen anything on the dance since Ś91 and was surprised to see
where things had gone. A couple was doing a simulated sex act łdance˛ that
was pretty convincing. Weąve also heard that łlap dances˛ were taking
place. Maybe it was ok to do this in a hotel because it was a łprivate
party,˛ but once you venture into physical contact between a dancer and a
patron, you are on dangerous ground. An exotic dance theater was raided
here in Sunnyvale just last year, and lap dancing was the basis of one of
the charges.
There was also some scalping of Caberet tickets around the con, and it
is possible that a non-member could buy one and get in. Just one such
non-member in attendance - including a cop - and your argument of łprivate
party˛ goes out the window.
The news we got about the Pet Auction had much more potential for
disaster. Various volunteers were auctioned off for a period of time to
the highest bidder, with the proceeds going to charity. We were informed
that some of the łpets˛ were bought with the expectation of consensual
sex. Even for charity, even if the łagreement˛ is unspoken, this amounts
to prostitution (an exchange of sex for ANY thing of value).
When Fox TV and HBO came thru the dealerąs room filming everything in
sight we wondered what kind of slant were they going to put on the con. I
know HBO has an adult show around midnight on the weekends that can show
the explicit art, but what is Foxąs impression of the fandom?
Given the amount of explicit sexual material available, we became
curious about why Bill Holbrook was invited to be Guest of Honor. Mr.
Holbrook draws a cartoon strip about a straight, family values,
mom-dad-and-kids family of anthropomorphic characters. We wondered if he
knew in advance what he was getting into, and if, perhaps, his presense
was a smoke-screen for the actual agenda of Confurence.
On Sunday, the New Zealand team for the Special Olympics checked in to
the hotel. Fortunately, the con was largely over and most people were
packing out. While the young people may not have caught on to all that was
going on around them in the lobby, their chaperones couldnąt have missed
it. It was a warning shot for just how quickly and unexpectedly things
could have gone bad. What if they had checked in Saturday, instead?
We understand that the gay/bi lifetstyle is to be free and loving.
Itąs fine to do what you want in the privacy of your own hotel room, or
home, or any other personal place. But most of the public wonąt accept
this in public areas if they think they or their kids are at some kind of
risk. Especially in the predominantly Republican Orange County. All the
con would need is a public official looking for something to make a name
for him/her self. Not to mention that the publicity would incite groups
like the feminists or ant- gay groups. This is not San Francisco, where
there is a much different attitude.
I (Monika) also have some frustration over the overt gay slant to most
of the con. After having read the souvenir booklet I felt pretty much
dismissed as a female.
One article was about furry music and the author wrote down his ideas for
good fury music. Some made me feel ...like a non person. He was citing
Nine Inch Nailsą infamous furry song where the leader declares his desire
to łf**k you like an animal. ł Then the writer stated, łHe also wants to
feel you from the inside ...which only makes sense if the animal he is
thinking of is male.˛ Excuse me? What is he saying? Did someone miss their
anatomy class? Or has he even seen a woman in the buff? I am starting to
feel very non-represented, except when I see all the pinup art at the art
show.
Weąre wondering if the straight folks and the alternatives can really
get along, or maybe there should be a split, and a new con formed for
those people who like anthropomorphic art and would prefer to enjoy it for
itąs own sake.
There is a small group that is calling itself Christian furry fandom,
yet everywhere we read or overhear the declaration, łfurry is gay!˛ We
happened to see a Christian furry party poster, and someone had drawn a
very erect penis and some kind of wording, (canąt remember the exact
phrasing). Where is the famous furry łtolerance˛ to all beliefs and likes?
I didnąt see any derogatory defacement on any other posters. We remember
defending furry fandom through the łSkunk Fucker˛ incident. Monika sat in
the security office at Baycon and let them know that it was intolerable
for someone to take the posters and put things into it like, łBring your
pets for us to abuse˛ or łDo you like fucking little animals? Come and
join the fun!˛ Ugh. Maybe we were wrong to defend the fandom. Maybe itąs
closer to the truth than we want to believe. Whatąs next? Snuff sex?
Necrophilia? We most whole heartedly hope not!
We arenąt saying that anyone should abandon erotica, just keep it out
of sight of the kiddies and the REAL bigots. Weąre not asking anyone to
check their sexuality at the door, but maintain a sense of decorum and
courtesy towards others. For crying out loud, the MARINES can manage that
much!
Of course, many of you are already heating up your Flamers, thinking
that if you ignore everything we just wrote and call us
racist-sexist-bigoted-homophobic-conservative-Christian-Limbaugh-loving-donąt
want-anyone-to-have-fun-sex-hating jerks, that everything will be just
squiffy.
Save your photons. Your vitriol doesnąt mean a hill of beans to us.
Having been a California peace officer these past 16 years, I can state
the following with some certainty. Check out the following excerpt from
the California Penal Code (No jokes. Heard Śem all. Penal means łpenalty˛
as in łgo to prison˛). After reading the excerpt, imagine that you are
Pete Wilson, or Jesse Helms, or the right-winger of your choice and say to
yourself, łIf I wanted to bust that con, what could I make sorta-kinda fit
under the statute?˛ Then think back to all you saw at the con, and make up
your own mind.
I know that, if Vice were my assignment, I could make the case.
CHAPTER 7.5 OBSCENE MATTER
§311 Calif.. Penal Code - Definitions: As used in this chapter, the
following definitions apply:
(a) łObscene matter˛ means matter, taken as a whole, that to the
average person, applying contemporary statewide standards, appeals to the
prurient interest, that, taken as a, depicts or describes sexual conduct
in a patently offensive way, and that, taken as a whole, lacks serious
literary, artistic, political or scientific value.
(1) If it appears from the nature of the matter or the circumstances of
its dissemination, distribution, or exhibition that it is designed for
clearly defined deviant sexual groups, the appeal of the matter shall be
judged with reference to its intended recipient group.
(2) In prosecutions under this chapter, if circumstances of production,
presentation, sale, dissemination, distribution, or publicity that matter
is being commercially exploited by the defendant for the sake of its
prurient appeal, this evidence is probative with respect to the nature of
the matter and may justify the conclusion that the matter lacks serious
literary, artistic, political or scientific value.
(b) łMatter˛ means any book, magazine, newspaper, or other printed or
written materiel, or any picture, drawing photograph, motion picture, or
other pictorial representation, or any statue or other figure, or any
recording, transcription, or mechanical, chemical, or electrical
reproduction, or any other article, equipment, machine or material.
łMatter˛ also means live or recorded telephone messages if transmitted,
disseminated, or distributed as a part of a commercial transaction.
(c) łPerson˛ means any individual, partnership, firm, association,
corporation, limited liability company, or other legal entity.
(d) łDistribute˛ means transfer possession of, whether with or without
consideration.
(e) łKnowingly˛ means being aware of the character of the matter or
live conduct.
(f) łExhibit˛ means show.
(g) łObscene live conduct˛ means any physical human body activity,
whether performed or engaged in alone or with other persons, including but
not limited to singing, speaking, dancing, acting, simulating, or
pantomiming, taken as a whole, that to the average person, applying
contemporary statewide standards appeals to the prurient interest and is
conduct taken as a whole, depicts or describes sexual conduct in a
patently offensive way and that, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary,
artistic, political or scientific value.
(1) If it appears from the nature of the conduct or the circumstances
of its production, presentation or exhibition that it is designed for
clearly defined deviant sexual groups, the appeal of the conduct shall be
judged with reference to its intended recipient group.
(2) In prosecutions under this chapter, if circumstances of production,
presentation, advertising or exhibition indicate that the live conduct is
being commercially exploited by the defendant for the sake of its prurient
appeal, this evidence is probative with respect to the nature of the
conduct and may justify the conclusion that the conduct lacks serious
literary, artistic, political or scientific value.
§311.2 Bringing Obscene Matter Into or Distributing Within State.
(a) Every person who knowingly sends or causes to be sent, or brings or
causes to be brought into this state for sale or distribution, or in this
state possesses, prepares, publishes, produces or prints, with the intent
to distribute or to exhibit to others, or who offers to distribute,
distributes, or exhibits to others, any obscene matter, is for a first
offense, guilty of a misdemeanor...
(b) Every person who... (Same as above) ...for commercial
consideration, any obscene matter, knowing that the matter depicts a
person under the age of 18 years personally engaging in or personally
simulating sexual conduct...is guilty of a felony...
§311.6 Engaging In Obscene Live Conduct: Every person who knowingly
engages or participates in, manages, produces, sponsors, presents or
exhibits obscene live conduct to or before an assembly or audience
consisting of at least one person or spectator in any public place or in
any place exposed to public view, or in any place open to the public or a
segment thereof, whether or not an admission fee is charged, or whether or
not attendance is conditioned upon the presentation of a membership card
or other token, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
CHAPTER 7.6 HARMFUL MATTER
§313 Definitions: As used in this chapter:
(a) łHarmful matter˛ means matter, taken as a whole, that to the
average person, applying contemporary statewide standards, appeals to the
prurient interest, that, taken as a, depicts or describes sexual conduct
in a patently offensive way, and that, taken as a whole, lacks serious
literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors.
(1) If it appears from the nature of the matter or the circumstances of
its dissemination, distribution, or exhibition that it is designed for
clearly defined deviant sexual groups, the appeal of the matter shall be
judged with reference to its intended recipient group.
(2) In prosecutions under this chapter, if circumstances of production,
presentation, sale, dissemination, distribution, or publicity that matter
is being commercially exploited by the defendant for the sake of its
prurient appeal, this evidence is probative with respect to the nature of
the matter and may justify the conclusion that the matter lacks serious
literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors.
§313.1 (a) Every person who, with knowledge that a person is a minor,
or who fails to exercise reasonable care in ascertaining the true age of a
minor, knowingly sells, rents, distributes, sends, causes to be sent,
exhibits by any means, including, but not limited to, live or recorded
telephone messages, any harmful matter to the minor shall be punished as
specified in Section 313.4
§313.4 Punishment. Every person who violates Section 313.1... is
punishable by fine of not more than $2,000, by imprisonment in the county
jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
Karl Meyer
Monika Livingstone (sibe...@cruzio.com) wrote:
: Well, a raid finally occured. It was brought about because a seller of
: video tapes turned in another merchant selling what was alleged to be
: copyright infringed bootleg tapes. Not only did the police take the tapes,
: but I am told that other merchandise was confiscated as well. Pornography
: was cited as to the reason. It happened on Sunday morning before the
: dealerąs room was opened and before most of the merchants were in the
: room.
I have yet to see any collaberation from any of the ConCOm that the police
ever showed up. So far it sounds like this is a rumor and until somebody
can give a case # I'm treating this as such. Not to say it couldn't have
happened or might not in the future.
: As I walked by the tables to see what was being put out for sale, I
: realized that the stuff was pretty raw and graphic. One thing especially
: got my attention. The Animal Magnetism CD-ROM was playing in slide show
: mode in the Artistąs Gallery, and some extremely graphic images were there
: for all to see.
That is true and I suspect there will have to be some policy changes.
Artist Alley should be in controlled con space as should anything else con
related. There is a certain amount of protection if it's members only and
there is some reasonable effort to enforce that.
: When Fox TV and HBO came thru the dealerąs room filming everything in
: sight we wondered what kind of slant were they going to put on the con. I
: know HBO has an adult show around midnight on the weekends that can show
: the explicit art, but what is Foxąs impression of the fandom?
Wasn't HBO/Fox. Suposedly it was some affiliate of NBC doing filming for a
show local to the Minneapolis area. A bad idea in my view in any case.
: curious about why Bill Holbrook was invited to be Guest of Honor. Mr.
: Holbrook draws a cartoon strip about a straight, family values,
: mom-dad-and-kids family of anthropomorphic characters. We wondered if he
: knew in advance what he was getting into, and if, perhaps, his presense
: was a smoke-screen for the actual agenda of Confurence.
I think he's been at prior CF's just not as a guest. I saw no sign that he
showed much suprise at the goings on. It was neat to get to meet him.
: On Sunday, the New Zealand team for the Special Olympics checked in to
: the hotel. Fortunately, the con was largely over and most people were
: packing out. While the young people may not have caught on to all that was
: going on around them in the lobby, their chaperones couldnąt have missed
: it. It was a warning shot for just how quickly and unexpectedly things
: could have gone bad. What if they had checked in Saturday, instead?
They would have found no rooms if they'd checked in on saturday. I hope
the contract with the hotel specifies no other organized groups during the
time CF is going on. Considering we filled the place this wouldn't be
unreasonable.
: Weąre wondering if the straight folks and the alternatives can really
: get along, or maybe there should be a split, and a new con formed for
: those people who like anthropomorphic art and would prefer to enjoy it for
: itąs own sake.
If there is somebody who wants to try and is willing to risk their own
money to do so then they are welcome to try. CF is what it is because
that's how those running it and enough of the fans want it to make it
viable. Conventions don't just happen. They take immense amounts of
planning and time by dedicated people that as a rule don't end up with
time to just enjoy the con as fans. If you can get such a group together
then go for it. I wish you the best.
: There is a small group that is calling itself Christian furry fandom,
: yet everywhere we read or overhear the declaration, łfurry is gay!˛ We
: happened to see a Christian furry party poster, and someone had drawn a
: very erect penis and some kind of wording, (canąt remember the exact
: phrasing).
This is called vandalism. Furry fandom doesn't confer sainthood on
anyone. There are a certain number of jerks in furry just as in the rest
of society. The Furry Christian Fellowship has some very nice people in
it. I know a number of them (no I'm not a member myself.)
: We arenąt saying that anyone should abandon erotica, just keep it out
: of sight of the kiddies and the REAL bigots. Weąre not asking anyone to
: check their sexuality at the door, but maintain a sense of decorum and
: courtesy towards others. For crying out loud, the MARINES can manage that
: much!
Sounds reasonable to me.
Crim Ferret (Karl Meyer)
fer...@enteract.com
Ross Smith
Karl Meyer wrote:
>
> Monika Livingstone (sibe...@cruzio.com) wrote:
>
> : curious about why Bill Holbrook was invited to be Guest of Honor. Mr.
> : Holbrook draws a cartoon strip about a straight, family values,
> : mom-dad-and-kids family of anthropomorphic characters. We wondered if he
> : knew in advance what he was getting into, and if, perhaps, his presense
> : was a smoke-screen for the actual agenda of Confurence.
>
> showed much suprise at the goings on. It was neat to get to meet him.
He described his impressions of CF on the Kevin & Kell mailing list.
Since the mailing list archives are available for public perusal at
http://www.gmcclel.bossnt.com/kk/ , I don't suppose there's any problem
with my quoting from it:
> [Bill] I was lucky enough to be in L.A. this weekend promoting "Kevin & Kell" at
> ConFurence West. I had a great time!
>
> [Zhora] So like where's your con report on us weird furry types? ;)
>
> [Bill] Ah! Is there a sub-group of weird furry types and not-so-weird furry types? :)
> If that's so, I only met the latter. (But then, I zonked out due to jet lag
> around 8:00 so I didn't see the Pet Auction!) Seriously, I had a great time and
> got to meet some really nice people, including yourself! Thanks!
(Oh, and it was his first CF.)
--
Ross Smith (Wellington, New Zealand) <mailto:al...@netlink.co.nz>
<http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/3699/>
+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
cmelv...@aol.com
In article <5cpokk$b...@eve.enteract.com>, fer...@enteract.com wrote:
>I have yet to see any collaberation from any of the ConCOm that the
police
>ever showed up. So far it sounds like this is a rumor and until somebody
>can give a case # I'm treating this as such. Not to say it couldn't have
>happened or might not in the future.
I have to agree that we're jumping rather quickly to accept the
account of a raid. Can -anybody- please give us a detail account of this,
either to fully confirm or definitively deny that it occurred. So far,
we're working off of second-hand information and rumors. I believe that
Matt Henry was robbed of a few items; I don't disbelieve him at all. But
from there the account of a police raid becomes second-hand. We need more
facts. We dealers need some form or reassurance fromthe Con.
Karl Meyer
Monika Livingstone (sibe...@cruzio.com) wrote:
: I (Monika) also have some frustration over the overt gay slant to most
: of the con. After having read the souvenir booklet I felt pretty much
: dismissed as a female.
: One article was about furry music and the author wrote down his ideas for
: good fury music. Some made me feel ...like a non person. He was citing
: Nine Inch Nailsą infamous furry song where the leader declares his desire
: to łf**k you like an animal. ł Then the writer stated, łHe also wants to
: feel you from the inside ...which only makes sense if the animal he is
: thinking of is male.˛ Excuse me? What is he saying? Did someone miss their
: anatomy class? Or has he even seen a woman in the buff? I am starting to
: feel very non-represented, except when I see all the pinup art at the art
: show.
I didn't want to comment on this until I actually went back and looked
through the souvenir book again. I did so last night and couldn't see the
problem. Yes there was the comment regarding the NIN lyrics (the want to
feel you from the inside is part of the song and not author comments) but
other songs were also represented. The artwork was fairly tame and by in
large showed females in a good light. There were very few references to
gay/bi lifestyles at all. Mostly there were references to
anthropomorphics, the GOH's that would be at the con, and a few stories
that didn't "dismiss" females in the least. Unlike the book from CFE II,
I can show this one to friends who aren't in the fandom which is nice.
Matt Henry
cmelv...@aol.com wrote:
:
This isn't directed at you, Chuck, so don't take it like that. This
is, instead, for the people on Furrymuck, who seem to think that daily
interrogations will somehow magically make NEW information appear in my
head. Please, conspiracy buffs, open your log files and read this
CAREFULLY. *Plays the X-Files theme*
FACTS
1) Saturday evening, when the room was closed, Brian Yelverton had his
selectio of videotapes, and I had my opy of Meet The Feebles that I had
purchased from him.
2) My copy of MTF was hidden, in a box, under my table, out of view.
3) When I arrived Sunday morning, I found my tape was missing, and the box
was now behind the table, in view.
4) Brian was indeed visited by a member of the Sex Crimes division of the
Orange Counnty Police Department (overzealous conspiracy buffs can even
call the OCPD to get things like charges, and a case number, I believe).
I saw both a business card and the citation.
5) My MTF tape, and Brian's tapes were missing as of 10:30am Sunday
morning, when I arrived in the dealers room.
6) Brian told me that police approached his table that morning and siezed
his tapes. Two were taken at first (I believe they asked to see two of
the "nastiest" tapes. He gave them a Cream Lemon and something else.)
then they returned to sieze the rest of his tapes and leave the citation,
after viewing the first two tapes.
Those six items are facts, things I can confirm from first-hand
observation of the incident.
Current theory is that Super Collector phoned in the complaint, though
this is not a fact as of yet.
rebel...@aol.com
Okay, I'd like to pose a question. As a longtime furry fan but one who's
yet to make it out to any ConFurence, I have to get my con fixes through
your posts on a.f.f. And the posts about CF8 seem to indicate that, while
most of you all had a good time, there were an inordinate number of
problems and conflicts, too. These appear to boil down to:
-- Poor choice of hotel
-- Lax security, especially during late hours
-- Lack of proper preparation and/or oversight for certain events
-- The perennial "Just how much visible furotica is okay?" debate
My question is, how many of CF's perceived problems can be legitimately
laid at the feet of the people who organize and run the con? It's obvious
that the ConCom staff does a heck of a lot of work to lay the groundwork
for holding ConFurence each year, for little reward. For this we thank
them. Yet at the same time, a.f.f. reviews of CF8 indicate that ConCom
has a very laid-back attitude about actually *running* the convention.
There are also indications that the CF staff's philosophy towards the
erotic part of our fandom is very liberal -- perhaps, as others have
pointed out, *too* liberal for the health of future ConFurences. If both
are so, then there are grounds for criticizing ConCom and for demanding
something better from them in future.
What do you all think? An inquiring mind wants to know....
Stormwind
Monika Livingstone wrote:
> My wife, Monika Livingstone, and I attended Confurence 8. We have seen
>some things that have concerned us, and our fear is that there is a
>potential for disaster for the Con in the future.
i've heard various ex-participants of
the con in the past state exactly that
for several years now.
> Well, a raid finally occured. It was brought about because a seller of
>video tapes turned in another merchant selling what was alleged to be
>copyright infringed bootleg tapes. Not only did the police take the tapes,
>but I am told that other merchandise was confiscated as well. Pornography
>was cited as to the reason. [...]
>Knowing that there is a large
>amount of sexually explicit material in the dealeršs room, I could only
>imagine the officeršs finding all kinds of reasons to confiscate items,
>and dealers finding themselves explaining themselves before a judge. The
>hotel has the right to let the police on to their property and Confurence
>could do nothing about it. I donšt know what the person who was raided is
>going to have to face, but now the con is on the cops watchlist and they
>may come back next year.
this is a very real, VERY serious threat.
cops don't generally look kindly on things
like this. what they see is: a large group
of people gathering and selling and exchanging
pornography. porn is commonly associated with
an assortment of other vices, all of which
make cops lick their chops. i'd lay money
that they come back next year, and the problems
will be worse.
>Think about it folks. We see people being accused of child molestation all
>the time on the tube. Itšs almost fashionable to claim it. Michael Jackson
>found out the hard way, whether or not he was innocent.
pedophilia is the hot topic this decade.
people who aren't even REMOTELY associated
with pornography are being accused of pedophilia
(see nikkicraft's accusations in rec.nude);
anytime you mix *anything* attractive to
children with sex, you run a very real risk
that escalates if you make it public.
> Wešre wondering if the straight folks and the alternatives can really
>get along, or maybe there should be a split, and a new con formed for
>those people who like anthropomorphic art and would prefer to enjoy it for
>itšs own sake.
either works for me.
> We arenšt saying that anyone should abandon erotica, just keep it out
>of sight of the kiddies and the REAL bigots. Wešre not asking anyone to
>check their sexuality at the door, but maintain a sense of decorum and
>courtesy towards others. For crying out loud, the MARINES can manage that
>much!
thanks muchly for the post, monika and
hubby! i share your concerns myself,
and agree with your points. hopefully
i'll get a chance to say hello at either
baycon or san diego comicon, and see if
monika is still airbrushing t-shirts!
--
stormwind
hell's amazon
lord of the frozen realm
Brian Henderson
rebel...@aol.com wrote:
>-- Poor choice of hotel
That would be the responsibility of the con directors, but since you
never really know how bad a hotel is until you've been there a year, I
certainly can't blame them. Now if we went *BACK* there... hoo boy...
>-- Lax security, especially during late hours
This has rarely, if ever been a problem. From what I've heard though,
one of the doors to the dealer's room could not be locked so we had
people watching it.
>-- Lack of proper preparation and/or oversight for certain events
Again, not really the fault of the concom, there are a lot of people
who offer to run things and then flake out. Now we do need to do
something about the SIGS and other events to make sure they have
motivators, etc. but exactly what we can do is questionable.
>-- The perennial "Just how much visible furotica is okay?" debate
Well, I don't know where to lay the blame for that one. Probably on
everyone though. If fur fans weren't so interested in porn, only porn
and nothing but porn, the artists and dealers' wouldn't put so much of
it out. About the only suggestion I have for this one is a little
more responsibility on everyone's part, and some common sense as far
as placement of the art/comics/whatever.
-Brian
Dr. Cat
rebel...@aol.com wrote:
: My question is, how many of CF's perceived problems can be legitimately
: laid at the feet of the people who organize and run the con? It's obvious
: that the ConCom staff does a heck of a lot of work to lay the groundwork
: for holding ConFurence each year, for little reward. For this we thank
: them. Yet at the same time, a.f.f. reviews of CF8 indicate that ConCom
: has a very laid-back attitude about actually *running* the convention.
: There are also indications that the CF staff's philosophy towards the
: erotic part of our fandom is very liberal -- perhaps, as others have
: pointed out, *too* liberal for the health of future ConFurences.
Well, I think people have a certain right to personal choices if they're
gonna be just your plain old average Joe Furry Fan. Do you want to put a
lot of time and effort into your hobby, or just a little? Do you want to
collect X rated art, G rated art, PG rated art, or all of them?
Sooo... If Joe Furry Fan decides to run a convention for the benefit of the
whole fandom... Does he give up his right to have personal preferences
about exactly HOW he is going to offer his time and effort to the community,
and in what ways? I think not! Someone mentioned in the last flamewar that
the Confurence organizers started the con in part because they wanted a con
where adult materials would be more accepted than at the sci-fi cons of the
time. Well, they have the right to choose to set up that type of con, and
all fans have the right to attend it because of that, to avoid it because of
that, or to bitch about it because of that. But I really think they have
the moral right to choose what kind of con they want to offer the fandom,
it's their time and sweat after all. Same goes for the issue of how MUCH
time and sweat to put in, how organized or disorganized to be... I've seen
cons that had a lot more effort put into them, and cons that had a lot less
effort put into them. It's really their right to choose, and if they don't
put "enough" effort in, whatever "enough" is, then they'll get the "reward"
of less people showing up. Anyone who is one of the people who thinks the
con isn't good enough is free to contribute to that "reward" by choosing not
to return the next year. Seems to me, though, that one of the eternal
issues about how much time and effort goes into the con has to do with never
getting enough volunteers to help out... Someone who was really concerned
might choose to volunteer next year instead of choosing to not go next year
or choosing to complain a lot. Well it was just a thought. :X)
: If both are so, then there are grounds for criticizing ConCom and for
: demanding something better from them in future.
Having put up my second free graphic mud now (and it's furry! Go check out
the web page in my .sig!), I am familiar with this kind of attitude. If you
do something for people, but don't do it perfectly... Rather than notice
that you are doing more for them than Joe Random Guy (no relation to Joe
Random Furry), they just notice that you are doing less for them than you
would like, and some of them will DEMAND improvements as if there was this
moral contiuum that goes something like:
Doing a perfect free favor -> Doing no favor -> Doing an imperfect free favor
I mean, when I put up part of a game, and I am slow at getting up the rest
of the game, and people BITCH at me to do the rest of the work... I want to
grab them and make them bitch at the next random person that walks by!
Consider... *I* fail to provide you with a finished game for free. That
random dude failed to provide you with a finished game AND he failed to
provide you with a partially finished game for free too, which I at least
did! If I am guilty of failing to live up to some obligation to you, isn't
he even MORE guilty, since he gave you less than I did? Bitch at him!
For some reason, though, giving people anything seems to make them think
that they're entitled to it, and that you owe them more besides! Can be an
incentive not to give people anything - but luckily there are lots of people
who are ind and thanful and gracious, too.
Of course Confurence does charge money, so comparing it to a free thing is
not 100% fair. But it is not charging money for the sake of the organizers
so much as to pay the costs of putting on the convention. They certainly
couldn't run it for free and pay all that out of their own pockets, that
would be really expensive! Anyway they all have day jobs as far as I know,
and they put a lot of work over beyond the work they do to pay their bills
in order to make a convention happen for us every year. So I really do see
it as a service to the fandom more than anything else, even though money
changes hands.
: What do you all think? An inquiring mind wants to know....
Well what could you do, even if there were grounds for claiming that the con
should change? Let's consider a few possibilities...
1. Convince the Confurence organizers that they too should want this change.
2. Convince them that although they don't want it personally, they should
run the con the way other people prefer instead of how they prefer anyway.
3. Convince them to step down and let someone else run the con instead.
Number 1 - well, they've been running the con for 8 years or so now, and I
think they know what they like and don't like, what they want and don't want.
As far as working harder or making the con more organized, for all I know
maybe they do want that but haven't got the time and energy and volunteers
to make it happen anyway. Anyhow I don't think choice 1 is very realistic.
Number 2 - This is a little more in line with human nature than hoping to
convince someone to change what they like and what they want. Indeed, if it
could be shown that almost nobody liked a Confurence-style con because of
their personal choices about how to run it, then it's quite plausible you
could persuade them to try running a different style of con, one that people
would actually want to come to. However, it seems clear that the way the
con is now is something the some people hate, some people love, and many
people mildly like or dislike or feel neutral towards. And that the sum
total of people who like it enough to go is large enough to justify having
at least one con of this particular type, which happens to be what they're
putting on, so that kinda works out. If anything, you might convince them
to be careful with a few particular things that might get them in legal
trouble, which is something they seem to be constantly flirting with... But
I don't think they're unaware of those issues, just less cautious about them
than a lot of us are & might like to see them being.
Number 3 - I honestly can't say whether they would say "How dare you take
away the running of this con" or "Thank the GODS, someone else to do all
this hard work so now we can stop doing it and just enjoy the con!" But...
Even if it were the latter, do you think there's anyone in that area who's
ready, willing, and able to jump in and take over doing all that hard work
anyway? Anyone at all? I don't think so, which renders it kind of a moot
point.
How about:
4. Expect the different styles of furry con that could and should be run to
be run by other people who WANT to run their cons that particular way.
And/or go start one yourself that's run the way you want.
Now THIS is practical, and doesn't go against any know principles of human
nature. Indeed, unlike in the early days of complaining about Confurence,
when there was little else out there, now we have MoreFurCon, Eurofurence,
Albany Anthrocon, the furry track at Duckcon, and probably more coming in
the future. I have hopes of starting a furry con in Texas within five years
or so, though maybe it's just a pipe dream. So maybe instead of demanding
that Confurence change in one way or another, maybe people could just look
around for other cons that might already be the way they want, or get
involved in a new one that's starting up? I mean really, a polite
*suggestion* to Confurence is always reasonable, as long as you understand
that they have every right to accept it or reject it as they see fit. Make
the same suggestion to any of the other furry cons that need to have the
same suggestion suggested if there are any. But I don't think we should go
around making demands of con organizers. No fandom would have any cons if
it didn't have within it a few people with the particular disease/obsession
of "wanting to put a lot of work into setting up a con for everyone", and I
think we should spend more time saying "thanks" even if they don't do a
perfect job than saying "We DEMAND that you do better next year!"
So thanks a lot, Confurence dudes! I had a good time again this year just
like I did at 5, 6, and 7, thanks a lot for all the hard work! And thanks
to each and every one of the volunteers who helped out with registration or
security or art show or anything else! Three cheers for volunteers!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: A gryphon friend of mine showed me a flyer for an adults-only
sf/fantasy convention, dedicated largely to sex-related art and fiction.
For some reason science fiction and fantasy fandom don't seem to spend as
high a percentage of their time bitching about that con's adult nature as
furry fandom spends bitching about Confurence's adult nature. In fact, I
never heard anyone bitch about that con. Maybe when you have hundreds of
cons you can accept diversity more 'cause it doesn't mean you can't find all
the opportunities you want and need to go to other type of cons and just
ignore that one? Maybe if there's 20 or 50 or 100 furry cons a year
someday, people will quit griping so much about the fact that one of them
out in Califurnia is very much not to their tastes? By the way, I have no
bananas in my ears as I write this, in case you were wondering. So ok I
love you bye-bye.)
Dale Farmer
Dr. Cat (c...@bga.com) wrote:
:
<snipped lots of stuff >
:
: 4. Expect the different styles of furry con that could and should be run to
: be run by other people who WANT to run their cons that particular way.
: And/or go start one yourself that's run the way you want.
For anyone who is interested in starting a con of their own, I
suggest that you come out to SMOFCON. Smofcon is a convention about
running conventions. It floats around the country, (and sometimes out
of the country), usually being held in December. The next one is being
hosted by MCFI, in Boston, next december. ( in...@mcfi.org for data )
and ask for smofcon information. ) At the convention you can get all
kinds of good information about the landmines that await you. From how
to negotiate a hotel contract, to choosing a GOH, to dealing with an
police raid on your con.
Mostly it is good for learning from *other people's mistakes.*
Which I think is far superior to learning from your own. :-)
--Dale
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dale Farmer Da...@access.digex.net Personal opinions only.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Terry Whittier
Is there a central location for the storage of advice on how to run a
con? John McLaughlin has wanted to put his experiences down in print
about how to run a good con, but hasn't had time. Nevertheless, it's a
good idea to collect all of the advice in one place.
--
--------------------------------------------
From Terry Whittier in San Jose, CA
--------------------------------------------
Bruce Wilhite
rebel...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Okay, I'd like to pose a question. As a longtime furry fan but one who's
> yet to make it out to any ConFurence, I have to get my con fixes through
> your posts on a.f.f. And the posts about CF8 seem to indicate that, while
> most of you all had a good time, there were an inordinate number of
> problems and conflicts, too. These appear to boil down to:
>
>
> laid at the feet of the people who organize and run the con? It's obvious
> that the ConCom staff does a heck of a lot of work to lay the groundwork
> for holding ConFurence each year, for little reward. For this we thank
> them. Yet at the same time, a.f.f. reviews of CF8 indicate that ConCom
> has a very laid-back attitude about actually *running* the convention.
> There are also indications that the CF staff's philosophy towards the
> erotic part of our fandom is very liberal -- perhaps, as others have
> are so, then there are grounds for criticizing ConCom and for demanding
> something better from them in future.
>
I went to the CF8 con and had a GREAT time. I also went to CF-East this
year and had a pleasant time there, too. Some of my friends who went to
CF-East did not enjoy themselves - a lot of the complaints I heard
related to how tight the CF-East con committee attempts to control
things.
I dunno - guess I am one of those folks who has little problem with con
managements; but then my lifestyle is not one of the more 'esoteric'
ones which draws so much fire on this board. My main con interests are
art, folios, talking to folks.
CF 8 con committee was primarily staffed with volunteers. This was with
1200 folks registering over 3 1/2 days; it is amazing how smoothly
things run taking that into account. So a lot of the problems appear to
be related to the bad judgement exhibited by some of the 1200 folks on
the attending side.
In the initial post to this thread there was a mention of the Animal
Magnetism CD being run on a laptop in the Artists Alley. Incredible bad
judgement and poor taste since the Alley was very open to the public.
Not that the product is terrible, but it is definitely adult stuff.
However, the guy running the laptop personally insulted me at CF-East
when:
o he had never met me before
o he wanted to make a sale on his CD
o and I had never even spoken to him but was standing at one of the
vendor booths.
So we may gather that social skills and good judgement are not his
strong points. Running into him again and seeing him display his
laptop screen to the world did not surprise me in the least.
By the way, I was just walking by his table so I know other folks HAD to
see his product too.
On the other hand - if he had to take the Artist Alley since he COULD
NOT GET into the Den of Dealers! Well that may put a different twist on
things since Den of Dealers DOES have a checkpoint for con badges - not
so open to the world. Then you might say it is the con committee's
fault for not enough vendor space to present an opportunity for the dude
to purchase a vendor table.
So, poor con committee or boorish fans/artists/vendors? - guess you may
have to attend to find out the real answer to your question.
The con is held in one of the more liberal parts of the world, so I come
down the coast each year expecting to see some strange things. However,
I do expect some artists are going to be hassled next year if they don't
keep some of their more explicit works separated in its own special
binder(s).
Kids do wander into the Den of Dealers from time to time.
Maybe the answer to your question is that con volunteers are stretched
VERY thin over those 3 1/2 days. Some of them work their tails off.
Each year I see ROR all over the con trying to hold it together.
-Bruce
Paul Raymond Bennett
Much snippage.
Mr. Henry.
Thank you. The suppositions were getting rather wild and woolly.
Paul
Brian Henderson
Bruce Wilhite <Bas...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On the other hand - if he had to take the Artist Alley since he COULD
>NOT GET into the Den of Dealers! Well that may put a different twist on
>things since Den of Dealers DOES have a checkpoint for con badges - not
>so open to the world. Then you might say it is the con committee's
>fault for not enough vendor space to present an opportunity for the dude
>to purchase a vendor table.
Um... if he couldn't get a dealer's table, he shouldn't be selling
anything! CF doesn't have an obligation to provide a table for anyone
who wants one. They have a limited space and it's first come, first
serve, anyone who misses out loses.
I spoke to this particular person (who was set up right across from
the Con Information desk) and he struck me as terribly rude too. The
guy who was sitting next to him on Sunday had a few nasty things to
say about him too.
-Brian
Monika Livingstone
I find it interesting that everybody jumps on the ONE little thing I
comment on about the song lyrics. It's not just this song but a build up
of long time of stuff. I find I have to turn down people (who request a
date) at other cons because I am not "gay" although I hang aroung gay
folks. They seem surprised when I say just because I have drawn furries
doesn't mean I am gay.
When Confurence is promoted on the alt.lifestyles.gay newsgroup at a
gay/bi conference then it does make it difficult for the others attending
that are not gay to explain themselves. I am not saying I hate gay's or
think they should dissappear, but I would like to feel like it's ok to be
a straight female there.There are some women there,now, that are straight
but I have found many to be bi.
I had a young man interview me for a Canadian radio show that wanted to
talk about furry fandom. I was surprised when he told me that he learned
that you HAD to become gay to be a furry. He said he used to tease gays
but then became one just so he could enjoy furry fandom. This was at a
Seattle convention. He also kept saying how "furry" was their "religion".
I assured him that not all furry types were gay and he looked at me very
strangely.
I hope that besides the little comment I made ( an I still feel it
strongly) that the rest of the commentary is take to heart. Yes there were
cops there. Yes they did take tapes and if the wanted they could return
next year. In fact Dave says it is probably likely. I find it amazing that
one dealer turned in another and that a Lemon People got this dealer into
trouble. I have seen lots of this kind of tape at most cons anymore.
Our biggest worry is that the outer areas for Artists Gallery
participants is open to the public. Maybe the con should enlarge the
dealers room. It would help.
The Cabaret is members only but remember there are undercover cops and
they could be there next year. All they have to do is buy a membership.
The only thing we are trying to do is warn of "possible" raids or
shutdowns if things are left as is. To improve, folks will have to monitor
what is happening in the public areas.
It is would also be a courtesy if folks could limit some of the more
overt actions in the hallways. We still do live in a Society I believe.
Good luck, Monika
Steve Gattuso
Bruce Wilhite wrote:
> CF 8 con committee was primarily staffed with volunteers. This was
> with 1200 folks registering over 3 1/2 days; it is amazing how smoothly
> things run taking that into account. So a lot of the problems appear
> to be related to the bad judgement exhibited by some of the 1200 folks
> on the attending side.
Actually, most of the attendees picked up their badges on Thursday night.
I watched the lines from the door of the Dealer's Den. Kudos to Karl
Mauer and Dwayne Stewart for being the focus of all that, and still
coming out sane.
> In the initial post to this thread there was a mention of the Animal
> Magnetism CD being run on a laptop in the Artists Alley. Incredible
> bad judgement and poor taste since the Alley was very open to the
> public. Not that the product is terrible, but it is definitely adult
> stuff.
Oh yes. Very bad judgement. And since it's supposed to be _Artist's_
Alley, having someone who is not an artist but a dealer made no sense.
One of the difficulties is that while the folks in the Dealer's Den had a
great deal of adult material, they kept it covered most of the time. In
the Alley, it was often uncovered and in the view of all. Not the best
plan, and one that needs changing.
> However, the guy running the laptop personally insulted me at CF-East
> when:
> On the other hand - if he had to take the Artist Alley since he COULD
> NOT GET into the Den of Dealers! Well that may put a different twist
> on things since Den of Dealers DOES have a checkpoint for con badges -
> not so open to the world. Then you might say it is the con
> committee's fault for not enough vendor space to present an opportunity
> for the dude to purchase a vendor table.
Not in this case. The fellow you speak of is Kevin Duane, also know on
FurryMuck as Assinio. I won't go into great detail, but he's the
greatest example of a con artist furry fandom has ever seen. That Ponzi
scheme of his he called Spooge-a-Day ripped off more artists and fans
alike than I have ever seen before. He didn't get a table because he's
too cheap to spring for one. I don't know why he had a table at
the Alley instead of a lot of artists who could have used it, but I doubt
it will happen twice.
> Maybe the answer to your question is that con volunteers are stretched
> VERY thin over those 3 1/2 days. Some of them work their tails off.
> Each year I see ROR all over the con trying to hold it together.
So do I. Rod and Mark keep biting off more than they can chew.
Hopefully, some of what they are responsible for can be delegated to
others, spreading the load.
Remember folks, if there's not enough con staff to help you, maybe the
better solution is to offer to help instead of bitching about it.
Thanks for the compliments, Bruce. As always, improvements will need to
be made. If they didn't, it wouldn't be Confurence. =};-3
Steve Gattuso
Monika Livingstone wrote:
> Our biggest worry is that the outer areas for Artists Gallery
> participants is open to the public. Maybe the con should enlarge the
> dealers room. It would help.
Oh yes. I'd like to see the room doubled in size, both to give room
for more dealers and to allow the Artist's Alley to be incorporated
inside, the way it is at San Diego. Publisher's Row can remain outside,
as it is not as large a collection of tables to deal with.
f...@snowcrest.net
In article <siberkat-290...@trip20.cruzio.com>,
sibe...@cruzio.com (Monika Livingstone) wrote:
> 1/29/97
>
> FROM: Dave White TO: All and sundry concerned
........> When Fox TV and HBO came thru the dealerąs room filming
everything in
> sight we wondered what kind of slant were they going to put on the con. I
> know HBO has an adult show around midnight on the weekends that can show
> the explicit art, but what is Foxąs impression of the fandom?
If I recall from reading this newsgroup a while back HBO was looking at
doing a bit on the
'plushie' movement, but perhaps it was a segment for thier Real Sex series.
Either way I doubt
that it will show the fandom in a 'good light'.
> There is a small group that is calling itself Christian furry fandom,
> yet everywhere we read or overhear the declaration, łfurry is gay!˛ We
> happened to see a Christian furry party poster, and someone had drawn a
> very erect penis and some kind of wording, (canąt remember the exact
> phrasing).
Very sad. After living through the "Skunk F#$^%#@" incident I though the fandom
might have moved past this and learned form it. However over 80-90% of the fur
fans of today were not involved in furry fandom at the time. I doubt if more
that 30-40 people at Baycon that year even cared about it although it did
have quite an
emotional impact on me and a few of my friends that year.
>Where is the famous furry łtolerance˛ to all beliefs and likes?
> I didnąt see any derogatory defacement on any other posters. We remember
> defending furry fandom through the łSkunk Fucker˛ incident. Monika sat in
> the security office at Baycon and let them know that it was intolerable
> for someone to take the posters and put things into it like, łBring your
> pets for us to abuse˛ or łDo you like fucking little animals? Come and
> join the fun!˛ Ugh. Maybe we were wrong to defend the fandom. Maybe itąs
> closer to the truth than we want to believe. Whatąs next? Snuff sex?
> Necrophilia? We most whole heartedly hope not!
You must have not noticed the table right outside the dealers room last year
loaded with canibalism and Necrophilia mini comics.
I'm glad to report this 'individual' did not return to sell again this year.
> We arenąt saying that anyone should abandon erotica, just keep it out
> of sight of the kiddies and the REAL bigots. Weąre not asking anyone to
> check their sexuality at the door, but maintain a sense of decorum and
> courtesy towards others. For crying out loud, the MARINES can manage that
> much!
Not a bad idea. It was nice that the con made an attmpt to check badges at
the 'naughty' section of the art show. Although most of what I heard form
the people standing there was what a joke thier task was. Now if only tables
could be shuffled around or the artists alley held in a seprate room
(like at CF 5 or was that at CF3?) to keep some of the more objectionable
elements
out of sight. Perhaps furry fandom has grown to large, or like the Roman
Empire
to decadant...
Brad Austin
f...@snowcrest.net wrote:
> If I recall from reading this newsgroup a while back HBO was looking at
> doing a bit on the
> 'plushie' movement, but perhaps it was a segment for thier Real Sex series.
It was for "Sex Bytes".
> Either way I doubt
> that it will show the fandom in a 'good light'.
I'm pretty sure no actual plushophiles have volenteered to
appear on the show. If they actually go ahead with the
segment, they'll have to use actors.
Brad Austin
Phoenix, AZ USA
<ar...@dancris.com>
Plushophilia home page: http://www.dancris.com/~artax
Darren J. Hanson
On 3 Feb 1997 17:49:02 -0700, Steve Gattuso <Pdoo...@primenet.com>
wrote:
>Actually, most of the attendees picked up their badges on Thursday night.
> I watched the lines from the door of the Dealer's Den. Kudos to Karl
>Mauer and Dwayne Stewart for being the focus of all that, and still
>coming out sane.
Hey, don't forget my girlfriend, Kaycy Ruffer. By Karl's own admission
she worked Registration more than either Kary or Dwayne did! (Comes
from my having been busy the ENTIRE weekend so she just never left the
Reg tables.....)
__
\/ dj