Open Letter to Garry Kief ...
Brenda
to the fans over copyright issues?
There is someone on my email list who is DEVASTATED that you sent out
your lawyers to rip her to shreds over videos she wanted to share with
her friends.
Okay .. I understand that there are intellectual property laws in this
country that have to be respected and enforced ... but why can't it be
done through open, diplomatic, respectful communication?
Why do you have to treat fans like we're the enemy?
Why do you have to be so brutal?
So heavy-handed?
Please tell me it's not Barry who makes you intimidate the crap out of
fans who aren't trying to make money off of Barry - they're just
trying to share something they love.
Again, I understand that laws are laws and rules are rules.
But we're people.
With feelings.
Will you never understand that?
Brenda
Scooter
>
> Again, I understand that laws are laws and rules are rules.
>
> But we're people.
> With feelings.
>
> Will you never understand that?
I somehow doubt it.
I got the letter from the lady, too. My heart goes out to her.
As you said, it's not their message (which they have every right by law to
express), but it's their methods that bring the character issue to mind. A
little compassion must be hidden somewhere in all that enlightenment, huh?
--
Scooter ( * )
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Never weed wack poison ivy in the nude.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Brenda
> Brenda <bmesku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Again, I understand that laws are laws and rules are rules.
>
> > But we're people.
> > With feelings.
>
> > Will you never understand that?
>
> I somehow doubt it.
>
> I got the letter from the lady, too. My heart goes out to her.
>
> As you said, it's not their message (which they have every right by law to
> express), but it's their methods that bring the character issue to mind. A
> little compassion must be hidden somewhere in all that enlightenment, huh?
>
Like my mama always said (along with a lot of mamas before her), "You
catch more flies with honey than vinegar."
He could have accomplished the exact same thing by just following
Barry's advice and "being nice."
I don't get it.
One minute he's bullying fans ...
And the next he's begging us to fill in empty seats at Barry's
shows.
Very odd disconnect going on there, don't you think?
Brenda
Scooter
> Like my mama always said (along with a lot of mamas before her), "You
> catch more flies with honey than vinegar."
>
> He could have accomplished the exact same thing by just following
> Barry's advice and "being nice."
>
> I don't get it.
>
> One minute he's bullying fans ...
> And the next he's begging us to fill in empty seats at Barry's
> shows.
>
> Very odd disconnect going on there, don't you think?
Gemini...
Jackie
> Brenda <bmesku...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Like my mama always said (along with a lot of mamas before her), "You
> > catch more flies with honey than vinegar."
>
> > He could have accomplished the exact same thing by just following
> > Barry's advice and "being nice."
>
> > I don't get it.
>
> > One minute he's bullying fans ...
> > And the next he's begging us to fill in empty seats at Barry's
> > shows.
>
> > Very odd disconnect going on there, don't you think?
>
> Gemini...
I keep thinking about Barry talking about how much he treasured his
Sinatra bootlegs. "Do as I say, not as I do myself."
Y'know, Barry could put his videos on a channel on YouTube, disable
the embedding - for free, like Weird Al or Paul McCartney and it would
inspire someone to pick up one of his CDs at the store or purchase
their faves on iTunes. I think putting good Karma out there will
boomarang back. They never think about the fan base when they rip one
to shreds - or how we'd continue to be put off and would refuse to buy
into the twenty bucks a month video club.
Glad this post won't get yanked off a censored / moderated bulletin
board or group.
Jackie
shado...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Did Catrin get Barry and Garry's permission to put those video clips
up
on Youtube? No she did not. I don't understand why she crying about
that when she has many many pages worth of video clips up over at
another video sharing site. Every video clip is either copy writed by
Stiletto or the company that has Barry on their program. When Barry
is on GMA that is copy writed by ABC News. So you have to get ABC
News permission to put that up on one of the video sharing sites. Now
if the company like Yamaha put a video of Barry on a video sharing
site
that's different story. The other thing is fans were taking Catrin's
video
clips and putting them in their blogs over on the Manilow Network
where
the network person could see them and tell Garry about it.
Linda
Brenda
wrote:
> >
> Did Catrin get Barry and Garry's permission to put those video clips
> up
> on Youtube? No she did not.
Oh puleeze....
Did Barry get permission from every artist HE ever bootlegged?
No.
He's human.
So is she.
Did I have my friend arrested when she gave me a tape of a concert
where I sang with Barry? No. I tearfully thanked her for it and
cherished it forever.
Bottom line here is nobody's perfect. Not even Manilow. This isn't
about "asking permission." It's about having yet one more excuse to
get ugly with a fan.
And, for the record, this wasn't in response to her posting these
videos on YouTube. Catrin honestly believed that if she took the
videos down off the public site and made them privately available to
people (she thought) she knew, she wouldn't be breaking any
commandments. Did Garry even try to pick up the phone and communicate
to her, person to person, why airing these videos ANYWHERE was wrong?
I'll bet my last dime on "No."
Again, Nobody here is questioning that maybe she did something that
didn't adhere to copyright law.
But geez, we're all FAMILY. Isn't that what Barry and Stiletto claim
every time they want us to buy something? Where's all that familial
compassion and understanding when it comes to stuff like this?
Suddenly it feels like we're a family all right - the Corleones!
Brenda
Scooter
>
> Did Catrin get Barry and Garry's permission to put those video clips
> up on Youtube? No she did not. I don't understand why she crying about
> that when she has many many pages worth of video clips up over at
> another video sharing site. Every video clip is either copy writed by
> Stiletto or the company that has Barry on their program. When Barry is
> on GMA that is copy writed by ABC News. So you have to get ABC News
> permission to put that up on one of the video sharing sites. Now if the
> company like Yamaha put a video of Barry on a video sharing site that's
> different story. The other thing is fans were taking Catrin's video
> clips and putting them in their blogs over on the Manilow Network where
> the network person could see them and tell Garry about it. Linda
Linda, it's not the fact that they told her to stop. It's their hard-fisted
way of doing it.
wac...@aol.com
Not at all surprising that they not only resort to such bullying, but
to do it to a long-standing, adoring fan is dispicable. It is beyond
short-sighted and it is appalling that they just refuse to see the big
picture.
Susan
wac...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Linda - you wrote in another thread here as follows:
I have a bootlegged live version of "I'll Be Good For You?". A fan I
knew sent
me a CD filled with stuff from his live shows in LV.
Did you get permission from Barry and Garry for that bootleg??? I
doubt it and Lord knows how many copies of that bootleg got circulated
amongst fans. The fact is everyone has a bootleg of something or
other, including Barry himself. If he wants his fans to refrain from
making and passing bootlegs, then he must try leading by example
first, show some respect for fans and maybe he'll get some in return.
I always get the feeling that TPTB think they need a whip and a chair
to handle fans and it's just beyond degrading. This guy is lucky he
still has such loyal fans so maybe he just needs to get over it and
count his blessings.
Susan
Scooter
> But geez, we're all FAMILY. Isn't that what Barry and Stiletto claim
> every time they want us to buy something? Where's all that familial
> compassion and understanding when it comes to stuff like this?
Buried under the credit card swiping machine?
Scooter
> Linda - you wrote in another thread here as follows:
>
> I have a bootlegged live version of "I'll Be Good For You?". A fan I
> knew sent
> me a CD filled with stuff from his live shows in LV.
>
> Did you get permission from Barry and Garry for that bootleg??? I
> doubt it and Lord knows how many copies of that bootleg got circulated
> amongst fans. The fact is everyone has a bootleg of something or
> other, including Barry himself. If he wants his fans to refrain from
> making and passing bootlegs, then he must try leading by example
> first, show some respect for fans and maybe he'll get some in return.
> I always get the feeling that TPTB think they need a whip and a chair
> to handle fans and it's just beyond degrading. This guy is lucky he
> still has such loyal fans so maybe he just needs to get over it and
> count his blessings.
Oh, but Susan! "Our Barry" had NOTHING to do with this. HE'd never do
ANYTHING like that to a FAN! He's too warm and generous and giving and
benevolent and SEXXXXXXYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[gag]
Those are the fans he loves, I believe. The rest are expendable.
Scooter
> Why oh why do you - and your thugs - at Stiletto have to be so nasty
> to the fans over copyright issues?
> Why do you have to treat fans like we're the enemy?
>
> Why do you have to be so brutal?
> So heavy-handed?
This reminds me of something very similar that happened, probably back in the
late 80s/early 90s. A local club director got one of these letters from the
Stiletto lawyers. It upset her terribly, and her husband was livid. What
was her crime? Her long-time local club had created a calendar using their
own photos, and they were selling it for charity. Zero profit. All went to
charity. But they blasted her for using Barry's image on something they were
selling.
Now you tell me why someone in Stiletto's office, which is the same as the
BMIFC office, couldn't have picked up the phone, and called this lady who was
a dedicated long time fan, and tried to fix the situation without calling in
the lawyers and upsetting one of the GOOD GUYS! Sheesh. Their unfeeling
behavior astounds me when it comes to fans. I think she pretty much got out
of the fan world at that point.
moonstone
wrote:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Linda,
TPTB took down the videos off Daily Motion not YouTube . They followed
them to DailyMotion from the Manilow ning site because fans had posted
them there. Catrin decided to show the videos privately to only those
who were on her email list and shared all this information with the
fan groups she was in...... Here's what really ticks me off- someone
decided to take it and send that information to Stiletto. They wanted
their 5 seconds of scumbag fame. I would love to know just who the
scumbag is. I'll bet you this scumbag watched her videos and enjoyed
every second of them too!
skatergrl
wrote:
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> if it isn't wonderful, warm, caring and sexy Barry???- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't usually post on fan sites, but this subject has me intrigued.
I did not see this subject mentioned on the Barrynet, though, so I'm
confused. Did I miss something (was it deleted?), or are you just
bashing fans again? Just curious.
Diane Adams
>
> - Show quoted text -
Maybe Catrin should check to see if Linda is on her mailing list
Brenda
>
> Now you tell me why someone in Stiletto's office, which is the same as the
> BMIFC office, couldn't have picked up the phone, and called this lady who was
> a dedicated long time fan, and tried to fix the situation without calling in
> the lawyers and upsetting one of the GOOD GUYS! Sheesh. Their unfeeling
> behavior astounds me when it comes to fans. I think she pretty much got out
> of the fan world at that point.
Yet - when another fan or fan club does the exact same thing - it's
OKAY.
I don't want to start another war by mentioning names, but what gets
me is that the "justice" (if you want to call it that) is dished out
pretty unevenly here in the fan world.
And they wonder why we take what they say and do so personally?
Why can't Garry - when he's at that moment where he's going to shoot
off an email to his attorney - just pick up the phone and TALK to the
person instead? He used to be able to do that. E-mail isn't always
the best mode of communication (especially when you never know from
whom it's really coming from). And if Garry thinks it's somehow
beneath him to do that - or he doesn't have time to do that - then why
can't he have Kirsten do it? She's always struck me as someone who
could understand the fans' point of view a bit better than he could -
so why can't he make her more of a liaison and delegate this stuff to
her? A good leader knows his own strengths and weaknesses and isn't
afraid to say, "Hey, I suck at this, how about you step in and smooth
things over?" Or, if he doesn't want Kirsten to do it, why not give
it to Lynn?
And then Kirsten or Lynn could talk to the fans - as HERSELF, not as
Garry, David Taylor, GCK or some other identity - and make them
understand that yes, okay, maybe they screwed up, please don't do this
anymore, here's why - but also let them know that someone in that
office has a heart.
Could save a few more fans (and their $$$) from walking out the door,
you know?
Brenda
Scooter
> TPTB took down the videos off Daily Motion not YouTube . They followed
> them to DailyMotion from the Manilow ning site because fans had posted
> them there. Catrin decided to show the videos privately to only those
> who were on her email list and shared all this information with the
> fan groups she was in...... Here's what really ticks me off- someone
> decided to take it and send that information to Stiletto. They wanted
> their 5 seconds of scumbag fame. I would love to know just who the
> scumbag is. I'll bet you this scumbag watched her videos and enjoyed
> every second of them too!
I haven't seen the videos posted on the Ning thing as I don't go there
regularly. The only reason I knew about them posted there was, I read it on
someone's public blogspot blog in a post about the subject of posting Barry's
copyrighted videos.
Lots of fans are sweet, naive people who only want to share Barry's videos
with others. They thing all Barry stuff is sort of a common thing to be
shared with everyone. They don't understand Stiletto's obsessive need to
stop that at all costs. Each time I've seen ANY copyrighted video posted, I
always say, "Uh oh...Wonder how long before this one is nuked." And instead
of actually "being nice" to fans who meant no harm, and actually calling them
to remedy the situation, they call in the unfeeling lawyers to slap them down
like an annoying fly on the wall.
My opinion is, I'd wait for Barry to burn all his unauthorized bootlegs in a
big pile on the Palm Springs patio before you set fire to yours.
And a message for Catrin: Of the two parties involved here, you and those
who decided to punch you in the stomach using their legal team, you're the
one who followed their rule of "be nice." :-)
--
Scooter
Reb
2387fc...@k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
> TPTB took down the videos off Daily Motion not YouTube . They followed
> them to DailyMotion from the Manilow ning site because fans had posted
> them there. Catrin decided to show the videos privately to only those
> who were on her email list and shared all this information with the
> fan groups she was in..
dailymotion? I just did a search there and popped up with many, many
manilow videos. they aren't all that hard to find from any search engine.
Brenda
>
> Maybe Catrin should check to see if Linda is on her mailing list- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Or Mark Worrall ("maniboy").
The last time someone downloaded something and posted it on Manimail,
he was the scumbag who ratted her out to Garry.
And, I recall, Garry didn't unleash his lawyers on me ... he nicely
asked me to take it off the string, which I did.
Being nice ... really can accomplish great things.
But yeah, if you have good ol' "Maniboy" on your forums, folks, you'd
better know everything controversial you post will be forwarded
straight to Stiletto.
Brenda
Scooter
> Why oh why do you - and your thugs - at Stiletto have to be so nasty
> to the fans over copyright issues?
>
> There is someone on my email list who is DEVASTATED that you sent out
> your lawyers to rip her to shreds over videos she wanted to share with
> her friends.
In my usual inquisitive way, I decided to Google Catrin. I found this post
she entered on her blog in March.
All I can say to Barry & Co. after the nasty way you chose to handle this
video situation is, shame on you. ;(
--
Scooter
Brenda
>
> In my usual inquisitive way, I decided to Google Catrin. I found this post
> she entered on her blog in March.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/mbn8jo
>
> All I can say to Barry & Co. after the nasty way you chose to handle this
> video situation is, shame on you. ;(
>
> --
> Scooter
I hope that Barry and Garry read this and can feel some shame and
remorse over how their organization has behaved.
Brenda
moonstone
> moonstone <eagle_92...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:9b57abc0-53c3-4972-9685-
> 2387fc8fc...@k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
>
> > TPTB took down the videos off Daily Motion not YouTube . They followed
> > them to DailyMotion from the Manilow ning site because fans had posted
> > them there. Catrin decided to show the videos privately to only those
> > who were on her email list and shared all this information with the
> > fan groups she was in..
>
> dailymotion? I just did a search there and popped up with many, many
> manilow videos. they aren't all that hard to find from any search engine.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes Reb, there still are manilow videos on DailyMotion and some on
Youtube as well. They are singling her out. The fans who posted some
of her videos on the ning site had no idea what TPTB can be like.
marvin
> who decided to punch you in the stomach using their legal team, you're the
> one who followed their rule of "be nice." :-)
>
> --
> Scooter
These guys used to have had some good PR counsel over the years-
Heidi Ellen Robinson, Susan Dubow, Carol Marshall- but they are not
using their counsel well in the last few years, except for the
positive publicity regarding Barry donating the music instruments to
the Palm Springs schools. The situation with Catrin should not have
involved lawyers, but good public relations counsel. I know firsthand
that other fan clubs (such as the Donny Osmond, Linda Eder, Neil
Diamond clubs) handle these problems much better than Barry's
organization does because they don't take their fans for granted.
Catrin's videos over the years have really showcased some of
Barry's best moments in his shows- such as the Showstoppers video
footage that I saw on the daily motion site- have probably influenced
a lot of people to go to Barry shows and buy his CDs, DVDs. I have
really appreciated Catrin's efforts over the years of showing us
footage of Barry concerts and TV appearances that can't be bought
anywhere.
It is a real shame that the Barry organization can't see the
goodwill of Catrin's efforts to showcase his talents to potential fans
that may have never seen his shows before. It is terribly shortsided
on their part to send her a letter from attorneys and not realize that
Catrin among many other fans are very influential in enhancing Barry's
career- just as important as my articles on Barry and those of other
writers and his TV appearances have helped enhance the selling of
Barry products over the years..
B&G really need to use Carol Marshall or whoever is their PR
counsel better than they have for the past few years. Given the fiasco
re: The View incident, the Thanksgiving parade incidents and other
recent bad PR incidents I forgot about, they need better PR and stop
being so aggressive and defensive regarding fans who want to spread
the good words about Barry's talents through the videos. Marvin.
Brenda
> Brenda
>
> I have replied to you directly about this but as you are naming me for
> something I know nothing about I am also adding a message here.
You were a member of Manimail and took it upon yourself to forward
information from my list to Garry.
We already had this discussion - and I kicked you off the list.
Remember now?
Sorry if your amnesia has kicked in.
>
> I've never seen any of the video's Catrin uploaded to the internet.
> But, had I done..I have the balls to tell her directly she is (was)
> out of order putting them up on her website. They are not her property
> and she has no right to do so..end of!
Who the f*ck are YOU to tell her what to do and what not to do?
You're just one of those little weasel fans who thinks that sucking up
to Kief is gonna get you somewhere.
If Garry had some balls, it would be HIS place to talk to her - NOT
yours.
And, for the record, I agree that what she did was probably out of
order - that's not the issue here, Maniboy. The issue is Garry
choosing to be assh*le when he could have easily accomplished the same
results treating Catrin with a little dignity and a little respect -
two qualities you know nothing about.
>
> You and Catrin need to get over it..there are far more important and
> serious things happening in the World right now.
Excellent advice, if you have guts enough to give it to Team Manilow,
which I'm sure you DON'T. With all the crap going on in the world
right now, should beating up on a fan - someone who has shown years of
devotion to Barry - be a priority for Garry?
Should it really?
Brenda
Brenda
Given the fiasco
> re: The View incident, the Thanksgiving parade incidents and other
> recent bad PR incidents I forgot about, they need better PR and stop
> being so aggressive and defensive regarding fans who want to spread
> the good words about Barry's talents through the videos. Marvin.
You make some excellent points, Marvin.
They DO need some better PR!
If their only damage control involves bullying fans who react to the
crap they pull by talking about it on public forums, then what the
hell are they paying Carol Marshall for?
Talk about makin' an easy buck ...
Brenda
wac...@aol.com
>
> I have replied to you directly about this but as you are naming me for
> something I know nothing about I am also adding a message here.
>
> But, had I done..I have the balls to tell her directly she is (was)
> out of order putting them up on her website. They are not her property
> and she has no right to do so..end of!
>
> serious things happening in the World right now.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
If that be the case, that there are far more important things going on
in the world (I totally agree), then why blow the whistle???? She's
had those videos up for a very long time for the enjoyment of so many
fans.
I've never seen so many spiteful fans under one performer and I've
never seen one performer so malicicous about it all. It's all so
sordid, it's sickening.
Susan
Brenda
>
> The person that would have gone running to Stiletto is Max
> Bokking...the Dutch idiot who claims all the time to be working for
> Stiletto and runs a two bit web site in the Netherlands. He has upset
> a lot of people and just thinks he works for Barry when he has nothing
> to do with the company at all. He sucks up to everyone for all he can
> get.
>
> Sally- Hide quoted text -
>
Oh wow - I don't know anything about him, except that Garry made fun
of him in one or two emails I received from him.
But then Garry likes to pit fans against one another.
I'm sure - just as he was pretending to be my dearest friend in the
world - he was busy trashing me to someone else.
But there's lots of Manifinks out here in the fan world. My good
buddy Vivienne was another one.
Brenda
casey
They DO need some better PR!
>
> If their only damage control involves bullying fans who react to the
> crap they pull by talking about it on public forums, then what the
> hell are they paying Carol Marshall for?
>
> Talk about makin' an easy buck ...
Brenda
Wow. This whole thing is really sad. I read the story about Catrin,
and had seen her extensive website devoted to Barry before. You know,
even when you have to give someone some 'bad news' or tell them to
'cease and desist', there are more diplomatic ways to do it than
scaring some poor fan with threats of legal action.
Yeah, OK, since they have Barry trademarked and everything (!) they
are going to be anal retentive about anyone using his videos, pics,
name, etc, without prior permission and payment. But this lady wasn't
trying to bootleg his stuff and make money off of it-she just
sincerely loved Barry and wanted to share things with other fans.
A kind and generous soul who had the best of intentions. What a
horrible blow to her because of the way it was handled. A very nicely
worded letter explaining their 'rules' and asking her to please stop
posting the forbidden items would have made the whole thing a lot
easier to swallow and avoided hurting the heart of someone who has
done nothing but tell the whole world how much Barry and his music
have meant to her.
There are kinder, gentler ways to ask someone not to post things-this
whole thing is yet another badly handled situation that could escalate
into a PR nightmare for Barry. I don't know if this is coming from him
or Garry or someone else, but it was handled poorly to say the least.
Yes, they have a right to control what copyrighted property of his is
released to the public and how, but this is not the way to go about
enforcing an innocent fans mistake.
Sure, we live in an age where record companies are suing 12 year olds
for hundreds of thousands of dollars for downloading songs to listen
to while doing their homework. But this isn't some big, hearltess
corporation-it's Barry's team going for the jugular of some poor fan
who never meant to profit or do anything illegal. If she knew what she
was doing was wrong, she wouldn't have been so open about it. Come on,
guys, what the hell??!! Feel better now?!
Brenda
>
> I have a great memory thanks!
>
> Keep taking the medication.
>
> Mark...oh sorry...Maniboy!
> Keep taking the medication-
You know ...
If you were on the RIGHT meds, Maniboy, you wouldn't have to keep
reminding yourself to do it.
Brenda
Brenda
>
> There are kinder, gentler ways to ask someone not to post things-this
> whole thing is yet another badly handled situation that could escalate
> into a PR nightmare for Barry. I don't know if this is coming from him
> or Garry or someone else, but it was handled poorly to say the least.
> Yes, they have a right to control what copyrighted property of his is
> released to the public and how, but this is not the way to go about
> enforcing an innocent fans mistake.
And yet I just posted that wonderful article from The Wall Street
Journal about how successful companies use their fans' feedback to
IMPROVE customer service and product image.
Too bad nobody at Stiletto bothered to read it.
>
> Sure, we live in an age where record companies are suing 12 year olds
> for hundreds of thousands of dollars for downloading songs to listen
> to while doing their homework. But this isn't some big, hearltess
> corporation-it's Barry's team going for the jugular of some poor fan
> who never meant to profit or do anything illegal. If she knew what she
> was doing was wrong, she wouldn't have been so open about it.
Exactly - when you KNOW you're doing something illegal, you don't
openly try to lovingly share what you're doing with everybody you
know.
Sigh ...
And you're right - because nobody knows how to say "I'm sorry" over
there, this could turn into yet one more nasty PR debacle for TPTB.
So sad.
Brenda
Brenda
> Actually I have a lot of sympathy for Catrin and have made it clear to
> people on my group that I believe Max Bokking to be the culprit. Call
> me whatever you want, Brenda. I've heard worse.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Vivienne,
You called yourself my friend and, at the same time, betrayed my trust
by forwarding Manimail posts to
Garry. You hurt a lot of people over there by doing that.
What else is there to say?
If you're the pot, then Max is the kettle.
Brenda
Brenda
> have learned many things of the past couple of years.
What have you learned?
I know I learned some lessons the hard way ...
How about you?
And the central point I was trying to make is that there are always
going to be moles forwarding crap to Garry. And then - when they
wise up - there will always be more to take their place, and he knows
that.
It's just one more way he chooses to dehumanize us.
Brenda
Brenda
>
> I admitted I was wrong, and again, I apologised at the time. What Max
> has done to Catrin is terrible in my opinion and was done out of
> nastiness and for his own gain
Vivienne,
I appreciate your civil response. Thank you.
But you know -
No matter who forwarded what to Garry, there is only one real person
to blame here. Garry encourages this despicable behavior among fans
because it serves his purposes and to hell with everybody else.
How can someone get to sixty years old and not understand that this
kind of Karma can only come back around to bite ya?
With all the blessing that he and Barry have in this life ...
Why isn't it enough?
Brenda
casey
I really don't understand the mentality of the 'hall monitors' who
think they have anything to gain by 'tattling' to Garry and why he
would encourage it. Sooner or later, this kind of behavior is going to
backfire when the right person gets wind of it and it ends up all over
the internet or worse yet, the tabloids. And then all of the other
'incidents' will be brought up as well.
Look, I know a lot of people seem to like Garry and maybe he is for
the most part a nice guy. I don't know him, haven't had any dealings
with him and can't judge him. BUT, I can say that there have been too
many of these i'ncidents' for Barry to ignore that there is a problem.
And maybe it's too close to home for him to see just how bad it is
getting. Look, he is close to Garry and Garry hired a whole bunch of
his own relatives, right? Not exactly an unbiased group.
Maybe Garry isn't the one who should be handling this kind of thing,
but should stick to the other 'management' duties and let someone with
more PR expertise and diplomacy and no personal relationship with
Barry start doing some damage control. Quickly. Sometimes it seems
like Barry is really making an effort to 'connect' with the fans again-
the vault songs and the letters that accompany them, etc. But then
things like this happen, and even if Barry isn't the one who sent that
warning to Catrin, the person(s) he has chosen to speak for him did.
The lawyers aren't the ones who are going to suffer from the fallout-
Barry and his fans will.
Better yet, treat your fans with kindness, patience and gratitude and
it won't be necessary to 'clean up' these messes in the first place.
Yes, some of the fans are obsessive, nutty, nasty,etc, but most of us,
the largest group of us, are just normal people who have supported
Barry financially and emotionally for many years. When things like
this happen, it makes us look foolish for doing so, especially to
those very people we have had to defend Barry to who are all too happy
to say 'Told you so, what an asshole!'
marvin
Thanks for the nice words Brenda. I am obviously not an
insider, but having a small public relations firm with a few clients
myself, you don't want to be overly critical of the clients who pay
you or you may lose them. Maybe B& G hire Carol Marshall only to
promote advance publicity for the arena and Vegas shows, but don't
want her advice or imput regarding Stiletto or the fan club. Marshall
has a great reputation among the LA entertainment PR field of being
very PR savvy, so I doubt that TPTB seek her counsel regarding Catrin
and all their other bad PR- and they should.
The really sad part of this is that more artists based in
America would be thrilled to have a fan in Germany that is willing to
work so hard to promote the artist. I remember all the work Catrin did
to translate Barry's songs and articles into German. Believe me, Reba
McIntire, Dolly Parton, Melissa Manchester, Dave Koz would be very
grateful to Catrin if she was promoting them in Germany- and probably
would view her posting videos as a way of promoting them then instead
of as a way of ripping them off.
If Barry was my client, I would emphasize to him that good
public relations is more than just putting on a good show. An artist
needs to regard fans as his unpaid partners who are willing to
volunteer their time and spread the good word about him, rather than
the feeling that fans are just masses of people who pay money for
products. As Brenda pointed out in the Wall Street Journal article,
those artists that maintain as much communication with their fan base
as possible beyond concert appearances will have long term fans and
long careers.
Again, if Barry was my client, I would advise him to write a
letter to Catrin thanking him for being his "ambassador in Germany and
working so hard to spread the word about him in Germany and also
stating that although he can't be in Germany, I would like to send you
a song I recorded for you just in German. Although I am apprciate of
your many videos on your website, unfortunately copywright laws do not
allow for these videos to be shown, so please remove them. I am sorry
for any misunderstanding, but again wanted to express how much it
means to me to have a fan base in Germany and you posting articles
about me in German"
This PR move would have cost Barry a lot less money than his
attorney's letter and threat of legal action- and I would have advised
Barry also to send Catrin at his expense some of the fan club items as
his way of saying thanks. Catrin would have felt empathy from Barry
even with the demand not to show his videos. Instead, TPTB lost a
valuable fan in Germany that could build on her publicity in German.
Their attitude has to change to embrace fans as partners rather
than masses that buy products.
One other comment.. how would TPTB like it if the fans that were
inconvenienced by the numerous cancellations of his Vegas shows sent
them a letter from their attorneys threatening legal action if he
continues to cancel shows with little notice. Unfortunately, these
guys never can see any other viewpoint than their own. Marvin
Brenda
> The really sad part of this is that more artists based in
> America would be thrilled to have a fan in Germany that is willing to
> work so hard to promote the artist.
She's not the only fan living overseas who do so much to keep Barry's
name and image alive in markets where he seldom - if ever - strays.
There are a few who really keep that torch burning for him.
But you're right - TPTB should be so thankful that they have fans like
this who put so much time, effort and creativity into what they do and
expect nothing back except maybe a smile and a "thank you."
> If Barry was my client, I would emphasize to him that good
> public relations is more than just putting on a good show. An artist
> needs to regard fans as his unpaid partners who are willing to
> volunteer their time and spread the good word about him, rather than
> the feeling that fans are just masses of people who pay money for
> products. As Brenda pointed out in the Wall Street Journal article,
> those artists that maintain as much communication with their fan base
> as possible beyond concert appearances will have long term fans and
> long careers.
Barry needs to understand that he didn't enjoy the longevity that he
has without a) his own hard word and b) the unswerving support of his
fan base in general.
We got him through the lean years when he was being booked for
rodeos.
And, when he moved to Concord and released "Mayflower", who bought
that CD? WE did. There were civilians who didn't even know Barry
was still doing anything.
And he DID seem to be a lot nicer to his fans during that era.
Then Ultimate Manilow and Vegas came along and it's as though Barry
underwent a 180-degree attitude adjustment. "Piss on meeting fans for
free - take "Can't Smile" out of the show and hey, if they want to
meet me, let 'em pay for it! I don't need to answer questions in a
fan club newsletter. Hell, who even needs a fan club newsletter?
Hey, Garry, you writing to that fan again? Move over and let me type
something to that bitch who dared to criticize my show!"***
To me, this guy isn't MY Barry. He's still in there, somewhere, but
maybe the stress that came with renewed commercial success, his
health, the fading economy and other factors just buried that nice guy
underneath this stranger who cancels shows because of more and more
"technical difficulties."
We saw a glimpse of MY Barry when Michael Jackson died. Remember that
wonderful letter he wrote? The one that kept going on and on? And
when he releases the vault songs and doesn't ASK US TO PAY FOR THEM
(unlike what his fan club has planned for the very near future). Once
in awhile - there he is. MY Barry.
He's still there. And I'm not giving up on that guy.
Maybe someone out there will think better of all that's happened and
write Catrin a very nice, apologetic note explaining that while no,
she can't air these videos because of copyright laws, her honest
intent, creativity and devotion were still appreciated, and they were
sorry for any upset this might have caused her.
"So shines a good deed in a weary world."
Brenda
Brenda
Oops, forgot my footnote:
***No, this is not an actual quote from Barry, so please put your
attorneys back into their cages. This is what I could easily imagine
him saying these days.
Brenda
casey
> On Aug 28, 7:51�pm, Brenda <bmesku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 28, 7:01�pm, marvin <marv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> public relations is more than just putting on a good show.
> � � � Their attitude has to change to embrace fans as partners rather
> than masses that buy products.
You're right. Even longterm devoted fans have their limits. They need
to stop treating this like just a business and realize that human
beings with very real emotions are involved-fans are not buying
shampoo-they are supporting the work of someone they admire. Yes, it's
supposed to be about the music, and for the most part, it is, but no
one wants to feel like they have been defending and supporting an
artist who really doesn't give a damn about them, much less bullies
them.
The reaction in this case was overkill to say the least. And now, some
sort of apology would go a long way to smooth things over-fans are
watching to see how it is handled. Ignoring it won't make it feel
better. Then we are all going to assume the worst-that they knew they
were being too harsh and they intended for things to happen just the
way that they did. And don't give a damn who gets hurt as long as they
get their way.
You know, you can say 'I'm sorry' without admitting any fault. Just
'Gee, I'm so sorry that you were hurt by this, it wasn't my
intention' or 'I heard what happened, and while we have to enforce
copyright rules, I feel badly that a devoted fan like yourself had to
suffer. I know you weren't trying to hurt me or do anything illegal.'
Then the fan apoligizes for breaking the rules, agrees not to do it
anymore, and they can 'kiss and make up'. This smacks of bullying
otherwise. This woman isn't some crook copying and selling bad
bootlegs downtown LA-just a fan who found great moments of Barry's
that she wanted to share with other fans.
Ignoring things like this and waiting for them to go away, or worse
yet, threatening people to 'shut them up' is the wrong way to go about
it. People respect and love you more for being human and admitting
there is a problem, an error was made, or at least that while you feel
you had to do what you did, the manner in which you did it was
hurtful, and you never intended to hurt anyone and you regret that.
We're all just goddamn human beings, we all screw up-a good person
then steps up to the plate and tries to set it right.
Hmm. Torture sick kids, threaten devoted fans. . .what's next? Beat
the 'wife' and kick the dog?
Brenda
>
> Hmm. Torture sick kids, threaten devoted fans. . .what's next? Beat
> the 'wife' and kick the dog?
It is killing me to not comment on this.
Brenda
casey
> It is killing me to not comment on this.
> Brenda
LOL. Don't hold back on my account! Just don't bite your tongue too
hard-but anyway, I think I can 'read' some of your thoughts on this
one.
IttybittyBarrycommittee
Brenda, this is YOUR Barry- warts and all. In your world, Barry is a
nice guy and loves his fans- you remember him from the old days when
someone else, maybe not Garry, controlled 'who he was and how he
acted'. Now that he has his 200 million in the bank and is just
working to feed his friends- he doesn't have to put on 'the act'
anymore.
I hate to say it, but Barry was probably always a prick- thats just
the makeup of some people, but being on stage back in the day when he
was starting out and then at his peak, he had to learn to control his
emotions and thoughts and actions. He probably had a few people to
help him do this and to roll out damage control when he slipped up.
Barry never really wanted to be an entertainer, he wanted to be behind
the scenes- but then he had a brief glimpse of center stage with Bette
back in the day and then it went full force after that- thanks to some
big pushes from some famous record company execs. He got a taste of
big bucks and instant adoration and who doesn't love that? Then the
'managers', 'laywers', 'minders' etc starting latching on for the
ride- they were the ones who created the image of Barry the Good Guy,
but they could't be there at every turn of events so of coures here
comes the bad PR raps. When the hoopla of his run of fame slowed
down, then he started doing his artsy, craftsy stuff with the
Mayflower and Paradise Cafe albums. THAT is Barry. Not the sugary
versions of Can't Smile without You and Linda's Song... Barry has
always been a craftsman and artisan- those people are best happy when
they are doling our their talents in small, handcrafted batches. Not
when they are being mass produced.
I think at that time (Mayflower & Paradise Cafe) there was less
pressure to perform and support the 'family'. So with the stress
gone, B relaxed and became more calm in his older age. Now for
whatever reason, Clive and the other minions decided B needed to hit
the charts- again, feeding the extended 'family' comes to mind, so out
comes a string of decades albums, then the Vegas contract, and now
arena shows everytime the poor man has a two day break. Someone in
the 'family' is saying...
'Barry, think of your 'family', we need the money! Get to work, it's
only for a couple of days.'
So B books an arena show- then he cancels an arena show because he can
or because he's just f*cking tired and doesn't want to deal with it.
Or something else comes up that pays more money and the 'family' is
like... DO IT, it's more money- we need the money- cancel here and
cancel there, everyone loves you, they won't mind! THIS PAYS MORE
MONEY!
Unfortunately Barry is a trademarked. licensed, copyrighted money
machine. He knows that- I think sometimes thats why he lashes out- I
just think all of this fame has continued to dehumanize him. I don't
think anyone could truly be happy knowing they are a 'business' and so
many others depend on them. I'm surprised he hasn't just run away to
a tropical island somewhere....alone.
So Brenda, what you are seeing is BARRY- I dont' think anyone else is
lurking inside. It's everyones' fantasy to want to picture him as a
really nice guy who just happened to get buried under the persona and
pressure of being a celebrity. BArry is who he is- I respect that...
but dont' always like it.
Scooter
> I hate to say it, but Barry was probably always a prick- thats just
> the makeup of some people,
Yep. There are too many stories from non-fans with no agenda that sort of
substantiate that.
> Now for
> whatever reason, Clive and the other minions decided B needed to hit
> the charts- again, feeding the extended 'family' comes to mind, so out
> comes a string of decades albums, then the Vegas contract, and now
> arena shows everytime the poor man has a two day break. Someone in
> the 'family' is saying...
>
> 'Barry, think of your 'family', we need the money! Get to work, it's
> only for a couple of days.'
I don't agree. No one decided he "needed" to hit the charts except Barry.
Clive had the idea (rubbing his hands together with glee at the thought of
$$$$$$$), and offered him another hit album back in late 2005. And Barry
said he couldn't resist grabbing for that gold ring again. I think he's
doing exactly what HE wants to do. He loves the adulation/adoration of
renewed success, first tasted with Ultimate Manilow in 2002, of which he
said, "It's real heady." And Clive's offer was one he simply couldn't
refuse. I think his ego is as big as the State of Texas, and he's been
feeding it with late-career charting albums, and a grinding run in Vegas,
but I don't think Garry or anyone else is pushing him to do it. Barry's
his own man.
> Unfortunately Barry is a trademarked. licensed, copyrighted money
> machine. He knows that- I think sometimes thats why he lashes out- I
> just think all of this fame has continued to dehumanize him.
I totally agree.
> So Brenda, what you are seeing is BARRY- I dont' think anyone else is
> lurking inside. It's everyones' fantasy to want to picture him as a
> really nice guy who just happened to get buried under the persona and
> pressure of being a celebrity. BArry is who he is- I respect that...
> but dont' always like it.
And the ultra-friendly persona that Garry and his BMIFC created around
1980, keeps crashing into reality. If Barry was as fan-friendly as
they've attempted to make fans believe, he'd have been much more involved
in the fan club over these decades. He's simply not comfortable with the
whole fan club idea. I'll never forget his reaction in a Canadian TV
interview when the guy asked him about fan club conventions. He was
almost squirming, and said, "I don't want to know what goes on there."
And the late Tom Snyder asked him about the BarryNet, and he looked like
he wanted to crawl under the chair. Those types of reactions speak
volumes.
Barry is an entertainer who wants fans to buy tickets, music, and
merchandise, and donate to his charity (think $1,500 Platinums). Other
than that, I think he'd be a very happy man if he never saw another fan in
his lifetime.
--
Scooter
IttybittyBarrycommittee
Oh I agree, however, while Barry of course has the final say- as you
said, here is greedy Clive rubbing his hands together thinking $$$$$$$$
$$$ as little horns sprout from his head......;)
So Barry didn't approach Clive, Clive approached Barry- so ultimately
while Barry probably would've stayed on track with a handful of
kitschy albums- much like Elvis Costello- making music HE likes, who
cares if anyone buys it? But no, OTHERS pushed him back into the
grind of top selling albums and then the Vegas thing- I don't
necessarily think that Barry would've manifested those ideas on his
own.... it had to be planted in his head. Yes tons of people depend
on him to continue living the lifestyles they've become accustomed to,
unfortunately 'artistic' albums don't always sell big. Barry didnt'
pop up one day saying:
'Gee, let me call Clive and pitch a decades album to him.....'
These come back albums and road shows were Clive's idea as, thats
right, Clive wanted the money and fame once again through Barry.
And of course the love of money and fame propelled Barry to say yes.
Scooter
> These come back albums and road shows were Clive's idea as, thats
> right, Clive wanted the money and fame once again through Barry.
>
> And of course the love of money and fame propelled Barry to say yes.
Exactly, which is different than what you said earlier:
> Someone in the 'family' is saying...
>
> 'Barry, think of your 'family', we need the money! Get to work, it's
> only for a couple of days.'
Yes, others had the ideas, but Barry decided to follow them. I still don't
think he was "pushed."
--
Scooter
IttybittyBarrycommittee
Well I'm not straying from my original thought- though Clive figured
in the 'family' that I wrote of- but also the others, Garry, etc
depend on B and yes, sometimes I'm sure they push him to do things
he'd rather not do. Lots of people do things they'd rather not. It's
called manipulation. I'm sure the 'we need the money' thing isn't the
way they go around saying it, it's MY way of saying it in a flip way-
but it's all the same at the end of the day or in the bank account-
the family needs to eat, Barry is the provider.
Brenda
wrote:
> > Brenda, this is YOUR Barry- warts and all. In your world, Barry is a
> nice guy and loves his fans- you remember him from the old days when
> someone else, maybe not Garry, controlled 'who he was and how he
> acted'. Now that he has his 200 million in the bank and is just
> working to feed his friends- he doesn't have to put on 'the act'
> anymore.
You may be right.
And, for me, it's sort of refreshing to be the Pollyanna here for a
change. :-)
But - if he really is such a prick -
Why does he seem genuinely interested in spiritual readings and
pursuits?
Why does he have friends around him who have been with him for
decades?
Why does he quietly go out of his way to do nice things for people?
(and yes, he has surprised many a person over the years with
unexpected acts of kindness and generosity).
Here's what I think ...
I think MY Barry does exist, but only in Palm Springs, and only with
his friends and family.
When it comes to the fans in general, I think he has lost the ability
to like us, much less understand us.
I think we are a boil he would happily have removed if he could
somehow manage it without cutting his own throat.
I don't think it was always like this for him. I think there's a time
when he genuinely enjoyed meeting fans and even got to know and
respect some of us as individuals. But, over the years, something
happened to change that. Maybe it was the Internet. Or maybe it was
something else we'll never know about.
So, if MY Barry is truly gone, I mourn his passing. He was an amazing
guy...I know, because there were times he made me feel like a
goddess. And it's those moments I will never forget. The rest - like
all this copyright bullshit - I'll be more than happy to forget.
Brenda
casey
> > Brenda <bmesku...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Like my mama always said (along with a lot of mamas before her), "You
> catchmoreflieswithhoneythan vinegar."
I remember that one. . .how about this one:
"Don't shit where you eat"
casey
>
> So, if MY Barry is truly gone, I mourn his passing. �He was an amazing
> guy...I know, because there were times he made me feel like a
> goddess. �And it's those moments I will never forget. �The rest - like
> all this copyright bullshit - I'll be more than happy to forget.
>
> Brenda
Maybe I'm just in denial, but I'd like to think that that old Barry
did exist and is still buried there somewhere underneath 'BARRY!'. I
think he probably has the same love/hate relationship with us that we
have with him-loves us when it's easy, wishes we'd go away when we
exacerbate the problems in his life. Like some days he must feel all
warm and fuzzy and grateful for all that he has and is able to
do. . .and other days, he wishes he could go to a museum or a store or
a restaurant without being stared at, pointed at, whispered about or
approached for something, and those days he wishes we would go away.
Or when one camp is begging for MORE pelvic action and the other camp
is saying 'geez, Barry, want some wine with that cheese? Knock it off
already!'.. ya gotta wonder if he is saying to himself, 'Just WTF do
these people want from me, anyway?!"
Comes with the territory of the job, the fame, the money, the 'yes'
people surrounding him, the moments when his ego gets overblown and he
believes his own press, and then the other moments when he fears it
will all go away after all, or he somehow doesn't deserve all of this
adoration and never asked for it in the first place. Part of this
contradiction might be a result of that Gemini/bipolar behavior that
the twin sign is known for.
I remember an interview he did years back where the interviewer asked
him about the craziest letter he'd ever gotten from a fan, or the
craziest thing a fan had ever done, and the look on his face was
priceless. Barry was very offended and quickly stated that he and his
fans took the content of their letters very seriously. He genuinely
seemed upset that someone could even say such a thing. I don't think
he was that good of an actor back then. Now? Maybe. I would look for
that clip and post a link but I don't want to get one of those 'we are
going to kick your ass' letters, so I won't.
So, Brenda, I hope you're right- that once upon a time there was such
a Barry and that once in awhile he will still pop up and say hello.
IttybittyBarrycommittee
Someone can be a real shit, but yet do nice things- be a
philanthropist or whatever. But yet, they can be shits to their
families, wives, husbands, FANS, etc but YET put on the face of the
'most wonderful person on earth' when and where it suits/best benefits
them. It doesn't mean that he's not Mr. Wonderful to those close to
him, but to the fans- whom as you said, he wished didn't have to
coexist with, he can be a real prick. You've said yourself that he
wishes we could just disappear. We are his bread and butter- does
that sound like a nice person? A nice person would love/at least like
some of their fans- maybe not enough to publish their email address
and phone number on the web, but enough to show up to fan club get
togethers, not get uptight about this site, not monitor the Bnet to
death, etc.
He has had loyal friends for decades. It is very rare for a person to
have more than 5,6 or 7 TRULY GOOD FRIENDS, friends you can really
count on for the long haul- during their lifetime. I believe that. I
have had 'friends' and I've had REAL friends. But REAL friends are
very rare. Barry probably of course has real friends, probably more
than the average person because of who he is and what he does. Who
wouldn't want to be the friend of a celeb? Plus he has MONEY. If I
had money, I'd have loyal hanger oners, too. I wouldn't attempt to
speak for him or his 'friends' but if he lost it all tomorrow, I'll
just bet that some of his 'friends' would dry up.
People have been known to stay in the most despicable of marriages and
relationships because of money.
And of course, I'm sure over the years, his 'family' has manuevered
him away from the fan base and the potential there to strike up
friendships or whatever because they probably fear new blood/loyalties
coming into the pack. I have known of some celebrities and the people
involved with them and that is a common thought in the tight world of
supestardom. Keep the star away from others who might be an influence
so only a few are controlling them. Sad but very true.
And hopefully he does exist as you said, probably in Palm Springs- and
maybe someday he'll cast aside his fan fears and open up again. These
postings probably scare the hell outta him, but hey, the ability to
discuss and kvetch is what makes the fan world go 'round.
IttybittyBarrycommittee
He once answered that question a few years back on an interview- he
sort of rolled his eyes around as he answered- he received a roll of
toilet paper in the mail in the late 70's from a gal named Lisa on the
East coast- she had written a letter to him on it and told him how
much she loved him! Actually pretty cute I thought and inventive,
baaaaack in the day before the internet- she was about 17 and was
trying to get his attention.
The way he answered the question- he kept his eyes rolling around like
he thought she was sort of crazy to send that and kept saying it was
'pretty unusual'. He didnt seem flattered about it, and couldn't
really gauge if he liked the gesture or understood it or what. I got
the impression he thought it was overall pretty odd.
Brenda
> On 31 aug, 21:46, musicandpassion <musicandpass...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 29 Aug, 01:17, Brenda <bmesku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 28, 8:06 pm, musicandpassion <musicandpass...@live.co.uk>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On 28 Aug, 12:55, Brenda <bmesku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Aug 28, 4:40 am, Diane Adams <adamsdi...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Maybe Catrin should check to see if Linda is on her mailing list- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> > > > > The last time someone downloaded something and posted it on Manimail,
> > > > > he was the scumbag who ratted her out to Garry.
>
> > > > > And, I recall, Garry didn't unleash his lawyers on me ... he nicely
> > > > > asked me to take it off the string, which I did.
>
> > > > > Being nice ... really can accomplish great things.
>
> > > > > But yeah, if you have good ol' "Maniboy" on your forums, folks, you'd
> > > > > better know everything controversial you post will be forwarded
> > > > > straight to Stiletto.
>
> > > > > Brenda
>
> > > > Brenda
>
> > > > The person that would have gone running to Stiletto is Max
> > > > Bokking...the Dutch idiot who claims all the time to be working for
> > > > Stiletto and runs a two bit web site in the Netherlands. He has upset
> > > > a lot of people and just thinks he works for Barry when he has nothing
> > > > to do with the company at all. He sucks up to everyone for all he can
> > > > get.
>
> > > > Sally- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > Oh wow - I don't know anything about him, except that Garry made fun
> > > of him in one or two emails I received from him.
>
> > > But then Garry likes to pit fans against one another.
>
> > > I'm sure - just as he was pretending to be my dearest friend in the
> > > world - he was busy trashing me to someone else.
>
> > > But there's lots of Manifinks out here in the fan world. My good
> > > buddy Vivienne was another one.
>
> > > Brenda- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> > All I know is that Max Bokking is not a very nice person. He would
> > drop his own mother in it if he thought it would get him closer to
> > Garry and Barry. No doubt at all that it was him that would have gone
> > telling tales to Garry about Catrins site. Max has hurt a lot of
> > people in his time including some of my friends.
>
> > Not sure why or how he gets away with it. His terrible web site in
> > Holland has had bootleg videos on there many times and he must have
> > been told to remove them as they dissapear quickly. Stiletto should
> > get him to remove his whole site its shocking and not good
> > representation for Barry. He also pretends to work as a promotor for
> > Stiletto, I have seen some of his emails and he includes the title at
> > the bottom of his messages - Freelance promotor for Stiletto. How the
> > hell does Garry and co let him get away with that one. Very strange.
>
> > Sally- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> > - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
>
> Well, well,
>
> Finely got the time to read the bullshit here!
>
> Sally, you are an evil woman, telling people who and what I am.
> We never ever met. So, don't talk shit about people you never met and
> have looked in their eyes.
>
> I really don't want to go into this discussion who started what. But
> let me tell you this, you are a sad woman. Telling stories about me
> that were in the past and survived by the truth.
> Throwing shit over somebody's head without knowing the details of the
> story is the lowest thing you can do!
>
> YES, I do some promotion for Stiletto to radio and Internet web site
> in the Netherlands. And NO they don't pay me for that. SO, It's all
> for free to do what I like to do best. As long as Stiletto agrees with
> it. I've have never said that I was working for Stiletto. I've worked
> in the music biz for 38 years. Have had my own cd/dvd store for years
> and do know more about music and promotion on radio then most of the
> fans. I know how the music biz works in the Netherlands and Stiletto
> gave their ok to do so. That's the difference between being just fans
> and me.
>
> Yes, I had, read "HAD", some problems with Stiletto in the past.
> Because some ladies were also talking bullshit about me to the UK fan
> club (Molly and Lynn period). These ladies didn't get what they wanted
> from me. IT was all jealousy from women who couldn't stand the fact
> that I arranged everything to make Barry Manilow popular in the
> Netherlands /Europe. But when years went by they (for instance,
> Ineke) came back to me and apologised in a certain way and she talk
> to me again and said "sorry". SO, that is how it all went then. Even
> after that, as good human beings, we( Stiletto and I) talked and
> looked each other in the eyes and set thing right. IF I had done
> something wrong in the past with what ever you heard then you know
> now, we are on speaking terms. I Never ever ask for a thank you or
> front row seats. It all came to me because they know what I'm doing
> for them. Barry is the greatest entertainer in the world and has
> respectful fans.
> But to me, you are not one of them.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mr. Bokking,
I read your entire post, but nowhere in here do you address the issue
which caused you to be brought up here in the first place -
You were accused of informing Stiletto that Catrin was - allegedly -
intending to post videos on her web site.
You are obviously a man of many words - so here's your big chance to
present your side. Did you rat her out to Stiletto, or are you
innocent of these accusations?
I, for one, am open to what you have to say.
Brenda
Diane Adams
>
> > - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
>
> I really don't want to go into all kind of discussion because it's not
> woth it to me. The only thing I have to say is that Stiletto itself
> has someone who's checking all website. And that's not that diffecult
> if you search on google. Sounds logical isn't it. That's all from my
> point of view.
> And my last respond in this matter.
> Max.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
And Catrin had contacts in Stiletto who assisted her with her German
website.
It was because YOU, Maxi-Pad went moaning and whining to your "good
pal" Garry. Hoping for some freebies were you?
This will be returned to you tenfold. Mark my words.
And Sally?? YOU ROCK!
Brenda
I didn't ask for a dissertation.
It was an easy "yes" or "no" question.
Why can't you answer it? We're talking about two or three
keystrokes, and then you hit "send."
Brenda
Brenda
under a fake name.
LOL!!!
Scooter
"David Taylor" and "musicandpassion (Sally)" appear to be one and the
same. WHERE THE HELL IS THE ANONYMITY OF TALKABOUT WHEN THEY NEED IT?????
;^)
Message Headers:
....................
From: musicandpassion <musican...@live.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.barry-manilow
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Garry Kief ...
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 06:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.93.21.33
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1251810187 25594 127.0.0.1 (1 Sep 2009
13:03:07 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups...@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:03:07 +0000 (UTC)
User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-Via: HTTP/1.1 (Velocity/3.1.1.2 [uScMs f p eN:t cCMp s ]), HTTP/1.1
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los-ab01.proxy.aol.com[C35D1521] (Traffic-Server/6.1.5 [uScM])
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; AOL 9.0; Windows NT
6.0; FunWebProducts; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0;
InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3;
OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618),gzip
(gfe),gzip(gfe)
....................
From: DavidTaylor <davidta...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.barry-manilow
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Garry Kief ...
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 06:37:27 -0700 (PDT)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.93.21.33
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1251812248 3804 127.0.0.1 (1 Sep 2009 13:37:28
GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups...@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:37:28 +0000 (UTC)
User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-Via: HTTP/1.1 (Velocity/3.1.1.2 [uScMs f p eN:t cCMp s ]), HTTP/1.1
spider-los-tc07.proxy.aol.com[C35D1247] (Prism/1.2.1), HTTP/1.1 cache-
los-ab01.proxy.aol.com[C35D1521] (Traffic-Server/6.1.5 [uScM])
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; AOL 9.0; Windows NT
6.0; FunWebProducts; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0;
InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3;
OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618),gzip
(gfe),gzip(gfe)
................
--
Scooter
Diane Adams
> On 1 Sep, 16:48, Scooter <em...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Brenda <bmesku...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I always take a post seriously when it comes from a troll posting
> > > under a fake name.
>
> > > LOL!!!
>
> > "David Taylor" and "musicandpassion (Sally)" appear to be one and the
> > same. WHERE THE HELL IS THE ANONYMITY OF TALKABOUT WHEN THEY NEED IT?????
> > ;^)
>
> > Message Headers:
>
> > ....................
> > Newsgroups: alt.fan.barry-manilow
> > Subject: Re: Open Letter to Garry Kief ...
> > Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 06:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > Organization:http://groups.google.com
>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.93.21.33
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > X-Trace: posting.google.com 1251810187 25594 127.0.0.1 (1 Sep 2009
> > 13:03:07 GMT)
> > NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:03:07 +0000 (UTC)
>
> > User-Agent: G2/1.0
> > X-HTTP-Via: HTTP/1.1 (Velocity/3.1.1.2 [uScMs f p eN:t cCMp s ]), HTTP/1.1
> > spider-los-tc07.proxy.aol.com[C35D1247] (Prism/1.2.1), HTTP/1.1 cache-
> > los-ab01.proxy.aol.com[C35D1521] (Traffic-Server/6.1.5 [uScM])
> > X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; AOL 9.0; Windows NT
> > 6.0; FunWebProducts; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0;
> > InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3;
> > OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618),gzip
> > (gfe),gzip(gfe)
> > ....................
>
> > Newsgroups: alt.fan.barry-manilow
> > Subject: Re: Open Letter to Garry Kief ...
> > Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 06:37:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > Organization:http://groups.google.com
>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.93.21.33
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > X-Trace: posting.google.com 1251812248 3804 127.0.0.1 (1 Sep 2009 13:37:28
> > GMT)
> > NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:37:28 +0000 (UTC)
>
> > User-Agent: G2/1.0
> > X-HTTP-Via: HTTP/1.1 (Velocity/3.1.1.2 [uScMs f p eN:t cCMp s ]), HTTP/1.1
> > spider-los-tc07.proxy.aol.com[C35D1247] (Prism/1.2.1), HTTP/1.1 cache-
> > los-ab01.proxy.aol.com[C35D1521] (Traffic-Server/6.1.5 [uScM])
> > X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; AOL 9.0; Windows NT
> > 6.0; FunWebProducts; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0;
> > InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3;
> > OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618),gzip
> > (gfe),gzip(gfe)
> > ................
>
> > --
> > Scooter
>
> was "her" being nasty to Brenda.
>
> Thanks Scooter for finding out.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
and thanks also to Crystal for the pretty one star!!
Starbug
> I remember an interview he did years back where the interviewer asked
> him about the craziest letter he'd ever gotten from a fan, or the
> craziest thing a fan had ever done, and the look on his face was
> priceless. Barry was very offended and quickly stated that he and his
> fans took the content of their letters very seriously. He genuinely
> seemed upset that someone could even say such a thing. I don't think
> he was that good of an actor back then. Now? Maybe. I would look for
> that clip and post a link but I don't want to get one of those 'we are
> going to kick your ass' letters, so I won't.
On Graham Norton's show in the UK earlier this year, Graham set up a
video link to a fan, showing all the Manilow memorabilia at her house.
Barry looked VERY uncomfortable indeed. He said at one point that it
was a bit creepy. I can't find a video on YouTube, unfortunately.
Scooter
There's a HUGE disconnect between what fans do, and how Barry feels about
what they do. I think it creeps him out when fans have a house full of
his "stuff." And when they're wearing his face on their bodies. And when
they gather in big groups to basically worship him. And yet, this is what
the BMIFC promotes because it $ELL$. So he's got to back his ears, and
tolerate it. He does a pretty good job of doing that, except every now
and then, like the squirmy moments in interviews when the facade cracks,
and you get a glimpse of how he probably really feels.
As for the eternal question that keeps being asked, "What's the craziest
thing a fan has sent to you?", he's the one who chose to answer that
question over and over and over for a couple of decades with the "toilet
paper lady" incident. He could have chosen to say what he did in the
above interview --that he's always taken what they send seriously. But he
instead went for laugh. Now he suddenly upset by that question? Too
late, Barry.
--
Scooter
Scooter
> I'm only sorry I commended "Sally" for a great post. I had no idea it
> was "her" being nasty to Brenda.
>
> Thanks Scooter for finding out.
Headers can tell you many things...
--
Scooter
Brenda
Brenda
Brenda
Brenda
Chirp ....
Chirp ...
Chirp....
I hear crickets, so that must mean Max didn't have the balls to answer
the question (which usually implies guilt).
So ... guess I owe Mark an apology.
Brenda
P.S. Another question for ya, Max .... are your balls only on loan to
Stiletto, or do they get to keep them permanently?
Jackie
> and thanks also to Crystal for the pretty one star!!
I laughed out loud reading that. Pretty well needed laugh, too, after
reading about Dysfunction Junction aka Manilow Central.
To recap:
-- a talented, reluctant celebrity that wanted to arrange music but
wound up a singing sensation. He loves the fame, likes selling the
tickets, doesn't like the fans so much -- but can't help himself, he
has to read and lurk what they write and say about him.
-- His (what? Manager? Partner? Merchandising guru?) long time fan
club figure head - who solicits forwarded e-mails from Manilow fan
club groups as if they were loaded with all sorts of international
confidential data that the status of the free world depends on. If
that isn't pathetic enough, pits fan against fan for cruel jollies.
He gets paid an incredible amount of money for doing this with his
time. Much more than those that are police, teachers, nurses, social
workers -- people that do make a difference.
-- An overly zealous fan type that needs to serve as a double identity
to further whatever agenda on a newsgroup so they can suck up to
Dysfunction Junction figureheads for a pat on the head? Gold star?
Stupidly, they don't realize they can be tracked by their IP number.
-- Mayhem ensues when rabid toadies "report" and "rat out" fellow fans
regarding posting of videos.
-- Meanwhile, a passive-aggressive rabid fan lurks in the darkness and
rubs her paws together as she designates single star ratings so that
someday, she too might get a pat on the head or a gold star from DJ/
MC.
Honestly, I can't get over the time and energy used to reward some
seriously small, stupid stuff and can't understand the why behind it.
Certainly there is some talent and some great thinking that keeps
operations afloat, but what a tragic waste of opportunity, time, and
talent in the process and one has to ask for what?
Toto, let the curtain drop. We've seen enough of the Oz facade.
Jackie
IttybittyBarrycommittee
Great post Jackie, BUT is this 'person' actually being rewarded
anything??
Brenda
>
> I laughed out loud reading that. Pretty well needed laugh, too, after
> reading about Dysfunction Junction aka Manilow Central.
Now THAT'S a TV show I'd like to see Stiletto Television produce.
Remember the old "Schoolhouse Rock"? The fan club could change its
name and air a documentary on how they do business, while we'd hear
the theme song playing, "Dysfunction Junction, what's our function -
rippin' off fans while sayin' we love them..."
>
> To recap:
> -- a talented, reluctant celebrity that wanted to arrange music but
> wound up a singing sensation. He loves the fame, likes selling the
> tickets, doesn't like the fans so much -- but can't help himself, he
> has to read and lurk what they write and say about him.
Strange, isn't it? He can't control himself, so he tries to control
us instead. (Can't think about that one too long, Mr. Spock, or your
pointy-eared head will explode).
>
> -- His (what? Manager? Partner? Merchandising guru?) long time fan
> club figure head - who solicits forwarded e-mails from Manilow fan
> club groups as if they were loaded with all sorts of international
> confidential data that the status of the free world depends on. If
> that isn't pathetic enough, pits fan against fan for cruel jollies.
> He gets paid an incredible amount of money for doing this with his
> time. Much more than those that are police, teachers, nurses, social
> workers -- people that do make a difference.
>
Hey, that's mean! He DID manage to inform the world there IS no
recession! How is that not making a difference? (oh, I'm sorry - you
meant a GOOD difference)
>
> Honestly, I can't get over the time and energy used to reward some
> seriously small, stupid stuff and can't understand the why behind it.
> Certainly there is some talent and some great thinking that keeps
> operations afloat, but what a tragic waste of opportunity, time, and
> talent in the process and one has to ask for what?
>
> Toto, let the curtain drop. We've seen enough of the Oz facade.
>
I keep clicking my shoes together but dammit (besides getting a few
odd stares from my co-workers), nuttin's happenin'.
Loved your post.
Brenda
Scooter
> On Sep 1, 11:05�am, Diane Adams <adamsdi...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> and thanks also to Crystal for the pretty one star!!
>
> I laughed out loud reading that. Pretty well needed laugh, too, after
> reading about Dysfunction Junction aka Manilow Central.
>
> To recap:
[snip of excellent recap]
Thanks for making my morning, Jackie. :-D
--
Scooter
Scooter
:
> On Sep 1, 11:05�am, Diane Adams <adamsdi...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> and thanks also to Crystal for the pretty one star!!
>
> I laughed out loud reading that. Pretty well needed laugh, too, after
> reading about Dysfunction Junction aka Manilow Central.
ODE TO ONE-STAR BABE
Just One Star
Rating in the darkness,
All it takes is One Star,
Shining so they see what's on your small mind,
And when they look around they find
There's another
One Star,
Shining on a newsgroup post,
Joining your other One Star,
Each and every one another slash,
At those you hate and fear the most,
If only
One Star
Would sputter out on its own,
They need just One Star fading to unknown,
And that One Star would forever be alone
It takes that One Star.
Ba ba ba da da da da,
Ba ba ba ba ba ba da da da,
Ba ba ba ba ba ba
It takes that One Star.
Just One Star,
Dimming into darkness,
All it takes is One Star,
Watch it dim and let it sink.
Just One Star,
It takes that One Star,
And everyone will know you stink!
..............
I'm counting the seconds until this get's its very own little golden star.
:-)
BTW, a poet, I ain't.
--
Scooter -- Wondering if a blue eyed singer ever one-stars us here. ;-)
Scooter
> I'm counting the seconds until this get's its very own little golden star.
LOL! That didn't take long. Predicatable petty cowardice. [sigh]
--
Scooter
Dawn
I gave it 5 stars. That and the disfunction junction. Too funny.
I needed the laugh, thank you.
Dawn
Jackie
> Ba ba ba da da da da,
> Ba ba ba ba ba ba da da da,
> Ba ba ba ba ba ba
> It takes that One Star.
>
> Just One Star,
> Dimming into darkness,
> All it takes is One Star,
> Watch it dim and let it sink.
> Just One Star,
> It takes that One Star,
> And everyone will know you stink!
> ..............
>
> I'm counting the seconds until this get's its very own little golden star.
> :-)
>
> BTW, a poet, I ain't.
>
> --
> Scooter -- Wondering if a blue eyed singer ever one-stars us here. ;-)
Bravo!!!! I sang the whole thing internally and think you wrote
great. Absolutely brilliant, which only contrasts even more so with
the dull, petty single star designations by equally dull, petty,
single minded allocation types.
Jackie
IttybittyBarrycommittee
I actually read where Catrin said she had been asked a few times to
take the videos down, but didn't . So guess thats why the lawyers got
involved. So maybe it's not Stiletto just being 'hood thugs after all.
Brenda
wrote:
>
> I actually read where Catrin said she had been asked a few times to
> take the videos down, but didn't . So guess thats why the lawyers got
> involved. So maybe it's not Stiletto just being 'hood thugs after all.
No, they were - and here's why -
Catrin was told she couldn't air the videos publicly, and they were
removed. She was then looking at the possibility of setting up some
type of private-access web site on which to air them - SHE HADN'T YET
DONE IT. But some weasel (Max, presumably, since he didn't deny it)
finked on her "intentions" and she received notice from the lawyers to
cease making the videos available immediately - even though she
HADN'T YET DONE IT.
Brenda
Brenda
> ..............
>
> I'm counting the seconds until this get's its very own little golden star.
> :-)
>
> BTW, a poet, I ain't.
>
> --
> Scooter -- Wondering if a blue eyed singer ever one-stars us here. ;-)
I'd like to think Barry is higher up on the evolutionary ladder than
the one-star mud-crawler.
Anyway, I loved it and 5-starred it!
Brenda
Maria
advances in the internet it has become extremely difficult and costly
to track performances so that songwriters and music publishers can be
paid accordingly.
It's not just Barry's camp that is proactive about this, it is
everyone. My company fights for rights for its members every day.
It is illegal to post someone else's material without permission.
It's really that simple. At this point in the game, people who have
done this in the past and continue to try alternate ways to post
material should not be shocked at a harsh, hard nosed response. You
can only plead ignorance for so long. The law is the law.
Maria
Scooter
> It is illegal to post someone else's material without permission.
> It's really that simple. At this point in the game, people who have
> done this in the past and continue to try alternate ways to post
> material should not be shocked at a harsh, hard nosed response. You
> can only plead ignorance for so long. The law is the law.
I understand justice is blind. I guess I was hoping that considering
Catrin's circumstances, the long arm of the law wouldn't be quite so brutal.
Along a similar line, what about bootlegs? Should a person be turned in if
someone learns they have bootleg material that's not posted anywhere, but is
instead shared privately with others? Should the law go after them, too?
--
Scooter
Scooter
>
> Along a similar line, what about bootlegs? Should a person be turned in
> if someone learns they have bootleg material that's not posted anywhere,
> but is instead shared privately with others? Should the law go after
> them, too?
BTW, my point here was, although I'd guess tptb would go after those owning
Manilow bootlegs, something tells me no lawyers from the Sinatra estate were
sent after whoever it was who shared the Sinatra bootlegs with Barry. Nor,
I'd guess, were they sent after Barry for admitting owning them. Different
strokes for different folks...
--
Scooter
Brenda
But nobody here is questioning the message -
I'm just questioning the way it was delivered.
Brenda
Scooter
Jackie
It looks like a nice e-mail was sent to Catrin. I'm glad that
happened.
Jackie
Scooter
>> Brenda <bmesku...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm glad, too. I hope some of what we all expressed here helped that happen.
--
Scooter
Maria
No. I don't think if people share things, privately, that the law
should go after them. I really don't think Garry cares about that
either. I think the problem is when people go public and/or blab
about things they've got. It's really not just Garry that is
involved. When you talk about rights, I would think Barry does not
own the rights to a lot of his creations. Isn't BMG (now Universal
MGB) his publisher? They actually own the rights to whatever works
are in that catalog.
Garry even said at one of the conventions in Vegas he didn't care
about the crappy copies of concerts people made a passed around (the
Memory Enhancers). It's the good quality things that people sell or
post publicly that they've got the problem with.
Maria
IttybittyBarrycommittee
Y I K E S !