Backflow Emergency Power?
Platt
Living on the Texas Gulf Coast we found it necessary to buy a generator
this year. We are completely equipped except for the power cord.
I was told to buy a 240v cord with male receptors on both ends. During
an emergency: start the generator for about 5 minutes, turn off the
main power at the fuse box and all fuses. Plug one end of the cord
into the generator and then plug the other end into our dryer power
outlet. Go back to the switch box and turn on any 120v areas of the
house that I will be using power. (Basically the bedroom and kitchen).
Is this feasible? And does any one know where I can buy this cord?
Any other suggestions? Thanks!
GrtArtiste
Who gave you this advice? I'll wager that it wasn't an electrician. I
STRONGLY SUGGEST that you consult a qualified electrical contractor on
proper use of a generator during a power outage. Follow ALL the
instructions that came with the generator. When it comes to
electricity, those who don't know or aren't sure should not experiment.
Doing so puts both life and property at risk.
GrtArtiste
Nick Hull
"Platt" <rama...@hotmail.com> wrote:
It's called a 'suicide' cord and you cannot buy one because of
liability. If you are clever enough to use it safely you are clever
enough to make your own. No one will advise you to use one, but
sometimes it is an expedient.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
Eric Sears
>
>I was told to buy a 240v cord with male receptors on both ends. During
>an emergency: start the generator for about 5 minutes, turn off the
>main power at the fuse box and all fuses. Plug one end of the cord
>into the generator and then plug the other end into our dryer power
>outlet. Go back to the switch box and turn on any 120v areas of the
>house that I will be using power. (Basically the bedroom and kitchen).
>Is this feasible? And does any one know where I can buy this cord?
>Any other suggestions? Thanks!
Platt
Unfortunately asking a question like this on THIS newsgroup is going
to get you LOTS of negative feedback! - probably for good reason!
To answer your questions however -
"Is this feasible"? - yes, lots of people have done it (provided they
know what they are doing) - that doesn't mean its a good idea!
"Where can I buy the cord"? - I should think its impossibe. And if you
don't know enough to make one, you don't know enough to be doing it!
"Any other suggestions" - well doing it can kill people (linesmen;
people in your house who don't understand about live "plugs" when they
are pulled out).
It can also "smoke" your generator (BADLY) if you do something wrong -
and I guess potentially even appliances. I suppose its not beyond
reason that you could "smoke" your house - though I would think that
safely devices would cut things first.
Other suggestions - just get some multi-boxes and extension cords, and
run whatever you need to run from them. Sorry, but you won't be able
to run "hardwired" devices.
Alternatively, ask an electrician to install a "transfer switch", for
at least the circuits you want to be able to run (that's the correct
and best option).
I should point out that I am in NZ where we don't have this "double
voltage" system in houses. Everything generally runs on single phase,
230v - which makes life easy for generators. (Usually only businesses
use two or three phase power). So whether hooking up 240v in the way
you describe will actually "work" - I can't be sure. Others know much
more.
Best wishes
Eric Sears
soundhaspriority
"Platt" <rama...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149413717.3...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42162
Have it installed by a licensed electrician.
Live long and prosper.
Nick
> I was told to buy a 240v cord with male receptors on both ends
it's real simple. take a good look at your dryer plug. is it a 3-prong or 4-prong
type? take a picture of it with your cell phone if necessary and go and buy the same
plug from your local electric supply house (yes, they sell to the public). the
generator should have come with a 220v plug adapter but if it did not you need to buy
one. as long as you turn off main power and all fuses at main box, your dryer hookup
is totally safe to use. you can easily run fridge, many lights, tv and some even run
mini split a/c units for a single room. if you turn on stove (usually 60amp) breaker,
do not use more than one burner at a time.
soundhaspriority
"Nick" <n...@atdat.net> wrote in message
news:4eg5v1F...@individual.net...
older boxes do not.
I'm worried.
GeekBoy
"Eric Sears" <pho...@025379386.for.email.address> wrote in message
news:4482c1d8...@news.clear.net.nz...
It is really not double voltage.
2 - 120volt lines are run together on the appliance
> Best wishes
>
> Eric Sears
JoeSP
JoeSP
Totally safe? That's about as safe as jacking up your car, putting a brick
on the gas pedal, and running a generator off the back wheel.
If a power failure occurs, and you actually get this thing to work, there
are a lot of things that can go wrong. Someone could forget to turn off the
main breaker. Someone could turn it on when the generator is running. You
might wire the plug incorrectly and burn out everything electronic in your
house (it happened). Someone could forget to plug in the cord and someone
could get electrocuted by the exposed plug.
Never underestimate the simple mistakes that can happen when people are
rushing around after a power failure. The possibilities for danger are
endless, but in any case, you would be held liable for any mishaps that
would result from such a practice.
Neon John
That kind of cord is sometimes known as a "Jesus Cord" because unless
you're really really careful, it can help you meet Him a bit sooner
than planned.
You can't buy a cord like that because it is dangerous and against the
code. It is dangerous because the male prongs on the far end will be
hot when the generator is running. It's against code, well, because
everything is against code nowadays :-(
Not that it stops many of us from doing it. If you do, you really
need to know more that you appear to in this post. Do you know all
the steps necessary to avoid backfeeding power out to the utility,
perhaps making some lineman's day a little less pleasant?
Here is about the most minimalist, reasonably safe method of tying in
a standby generator. This is what I use at my cabin. I do know what
I'm doing, of course.
I have a male L14-50 twist-lock plug mounted in a box next to the
basement door. A conventional male/female L14-50 cord runs from this
plug to the generator after I wheel it outside.
The plug is hard-wired to a separate 50 amp, 240 volt breaker in the
panel. I have this breaker located at the top left, up next to the
main breaker and I've painted it bright red. I've also made up a sign
with easy "1-2-3" instructions for tying in the generator. I know how
to do this in my sleep but having a nuclear and amateur aviation
background, I live by check lists.
It says:
1. Open the green main breaker (a large "1" is on the breaker)
2. Open all non-blue breakers
3. Close the red generator breaker (A large "3" is on the breaker)
4. Crank the generator.
5. Connect the cord.
6. Close the generator breaker.
The generator breaker is painted red. Essential circuits are painted
blue. the main breaker is painted green. I chose these colors
because green and blue are considered "normal" or "OK" colors while
red means "stop" or "caution".
This architecture is reasonably safe if operated by a competent person
and the cost is minimal. Perhaps a couple hundred dollars if you buy
everything new.
One step up in safety and convenience is a manual transfer switch.
This is a double pole double throw high capacity switch that selects
either utility power or generator power but not both. It goes in the
service entrance between the meter and breaker panel. Cost is a
couple hundred bux plus whatever it costs to install. With this
switch, transferring to the generator is a matter of throwing the
switch to "generator", flipping off non-essential breakers and
cranking the generator.
I install breakers on all my generators so that I can have positive
control over the circuit and not have to rely on plugging and
unplugging the cord for that purpose. Small and inexpensive air
conditioner disconnect switches, optionally with the switch replaced
with a breaker, does the job. Here's a photo
http://www.neon-john.com/Neon_John_site/Generator/Quiet_pack_55G/GenCart_2.jpg
http://www.neon-john.com/Neon_John_site/Generator/Quiet_pack_55G/Quiet_home.htm
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
danny burstein
In <lr96821dm3cnrgrru...@4ax.com> Neon John <n...@never.com> writes:
>>Living on the Texas Gulf Coast we found it necessary to buy a generator
>>this year. We are completely equipped except for the power cord.
>>
>>I was told to buy a 240v cord with male receptors on both ends. During
>>an emergency: start the generator for about 5 minutes, turn off the
>>main power at the fuse box and all fuses. Plug one end of the cord
>>into the generator and then plug the other end into our dryer power
>>outlet.
>That kind of cord is sometimes known as a "Jesus Cord" because unless
>you're really really careful, it can help you meet Him a bit sooner
>than planned.
All the ones I've seen have been labled "widow maker". I
guess that's because I live outside the Bible Belt.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
JoeSP
"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
news:lr96821dm3cnrgrru...@4ax.com...
Anything to avoid a $100 transfer switch...
Sounds quite complicated and dangerous to me. I wouldn't trust a novice,
perhaps shaken by a hurricane, maybe without glasses or flashlight to
operate some such setup as that.
There should be a law, if there isn't one already, to make it illegal to
connect a generator to household circuits without an approved transfer
switch, installed according to code.
A resident near here bought a new generator a few years ago, and took quite
elaborate steps to lay out clear instructions for using colored plugs and
labeled cords to disconnect the main power and connect the generator during
a power failure. In spite of all this, while he was away, his wife managed
to burn up the generator before it was even started up, and had to spend the
whole time without power because it knocked out the service. The outage was
brief, only a few minutes, so after it came back on, the neighbors all had
power, but she did not.
Nothing beats these simple instructions:
1. Connect generator.
2. Throw the transfer switch.
3. Start generator.
If the transfer switch is automatic, skip step 2.
Even if someone were to get the steps mixed up, it still works. There's
virtually no chance of damage or injury with this type of setup.
Tuppence
"Platt" <rama...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149413717.3...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
1. Have your advisor charged with attempted murder.
2. Employ a qualified electrician who will ensure that the loading of those
circuits you wish to be maintained under emergency conditions does not
exceed the output of your generator and who will wire the power supply to
those maintained circuits through a suitable mains/generator incomer
changeover switch. The maintained circuits will require fuse/overload
protection AFTER the changeover switch. The generator cable will have a male
connection at the generator end and a female connection on the other end
mating to a shrouded male connector on the changeover switch generator
incomer.
Electrical codes are for the primary purpose of ensuring safety and should
not be ignored.
Regards,
Tuppence.
p.s. In the US the changeover switch is known as a 'Transfer Switch'.
Platt
Wow, thank you all for the in-depth responses. I have learned quite a
bit. In a nut shell:
It sounds like this is a safe procedure when left in the right hands.
The "hillbilly" factor makes it dangerous when not taken seriously and
stupidity avails. My wife and I are deliberate, careful, educated
people and we plan on using a backflow strategy based on the feedback
from this board. Our generator has a 30A main (4-prong twist lock)
plug outlet; quite sufficient for the task at hand. Thank you all
again for the input and advice provided. This seems to be a very
serious board with much to offer.
Neon John
>> This architecture is reasonably safe if operated by a competent person
>> and the cost is minimal. Perhaps a couple hundred dollars if you buy
>> everything new.
>>
>
>Anything to avoid a $100 transfer switch...
Hey, spud, show me a transfer switch installed for $100 and yer on.
Show me a transfer switch sitting on the store shelf for $100 for that
matter, and yer on. That still leaves the matter of where to put it.
I don't intend to glom something like that on the outside of my
attractive cabin and there is no room inside.
>
>Sounds quite complicated and dangerous to me. I wouldn't trust a novice,
>perhaps shaken by a hurricane, maybe without glasses or flashlight to
>operate some such setup as that.
I guess we're made of tougher stuff down here but it'd take a LOT more
than a hurricane or a tornado (BTDT) for me to become "shaken". As
for lack of flashlight or glasses, methinks your projecting your
inadequacies again.
>
>There should be a law, if there isn't one already, to make it illegal to
>connect a generator to household circuits without an approved transfer
>switch, installed according to code.
One of those truisms in life is that whenever someone starts a thought
with "there outta be a law", he is almost surely going to subsequently
expose his anal opening. Such is the case here.
>
>A resident near here bought a new generator a few years ago, and took quite
>elaborate steps to lay out clear instructions for using colored plugs and
>labeled cords to disconnect the main power and connect the generator during
>a power failure. In spite of all this, while he was away, his wife managed
>to burn up the generator before it was even started up, and had to spend the
>whole time without power because it knocked out the service. The outage was
>brief, only a few minutes, so after it came back on, the neighbors all had
>power, but she did not.
>
>Nothing beats these simple instructions:
>
>1. Connect generator.
>2. Throw the transfer switch.
>3. Start generator.
>
>If the transfer switch is automatic, skip step 2.
>
>Even if someone were to get the steps mixed up, it still works. There's
>virtually no chance of damage or injury with this type of setup.
>
Well heck, why not go one step further and install a fully automated
system. Then all you have to do is sit back and watch it work. Until
it doesn't. Then you scratch yer head or yer ass (one in the same in
some cases) and wonder why yer still in the dark.
Having actually been through an extended power outage or two, I know
that the dumbest, rock-simplest system that will get the job done is
the one that is most likely to work after the power surges and
lightning get through.
I'd not argue against a transfer switch if one wants one and doesn't
mind spending the money but that's certainly not the only way.
Especially for those with triple-digit IQs capable of following a
simple checklist.
One also learns after a few power loss incidents (what some people
seem to need to call "disasters") that diversity and redundancy are
vital. I have more than one generator (a whole house one and a
smaller one capable of running only the very basic essentials.) and
for connections, if everything else fails, the uber-jesus cord - a
long cord with a twist-lock on one end and a medusa of gator clips and
male pins on the other. After the lightning takes out the main
breaker (BTDT too), I can clip onto the panel bus and energize the
branches. I can put the pin connectors under breaker terminals if
necessary. I can even run cords directly to the loads if necessary.
AFter going through an incident or two, one quickly realized that the
bleatings of safety cowards such as yourself are irrelevant compared
to the actual threat to life and health that an extended loss of power
can mean. Especially when the loss of power is caused by a cold
weather event.
You can have your safety crap and your laws and your phobias and your
UL approvals. (It must be so horrible going through life as a small
frightened person who cowers at anything that goes bump in the night.)
Me, I'm GOING to have power if the generator will still run and I have
as little at my disposal as a screw driver, wire cutters and a few
wire nuts.
JoeSP
Stay tuned for this guy to make an appearance on the Darwin Awards in the
near future.
swattsup
that was to effect - in case there is an injury/death of a lineman who
in the neighborhood is going to be blamed and sued? Those with
transfer switches? Those using extension cords for each appliance? Or,
someone with a suicide cord plugged into the dryer outlet?
(PeteCresswell)
>and a
>smaller one capable of running only the very basic essentials.
How many KW can that one put out - continuous load?
--
PeteCresswell
andre...@yahoo.com
I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were you. Neon is a first rate
Motie Engineer, but I'm not sure if he has the brown fur.:)
__________
Andre' B.
JoeSP
<andre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149606113....@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Sounds like he's been luckier than a team of leprechauns throwing horseshoes
at the end of a rainbow.
Tom Horne, Electrician
How about recognizing that your home is not representative of all home
wiring systems and that other people that try to follow your reckless
advice may be harmed and just keep that procedure to yourself.
Homes equipped with energy conservation metering can back feed out to
the lines just because a heating element in a water heater has failed.
Split buss panels were installed for many decades and there are hundreds
of thousands of them in use today. The so called main breaker only
controls the power to the half of the buss were all of the single pole
breakers are supposed to be installed. The double pole breakers in such
panels draw their power from the same main lug only buss bars that
supply the "main" breaker. One of those double pole breakers is, of
course, the dryer breaker. Anything connected to the double pole
breakers in such a panel is connected to the transformers secondary when
ever the breaker is closed. There is no other off switch between the
dryer outlet and the meters load terminals.
There are additional hundreds of thousands of fused panels were the
cartridge fused pull outs are also supplied in parallel from the main
lugs. Up to six such pullouts control the water heater, range, electric
heat, sub panels, and; oh yes; the dryer circuit. IN one brand;
Wadsworth Switch; the one hundred ampere panel and the sixty ampere
panel are visually identical but if you examine the diagram that was
printed before I was born; providing, of course, that it is still
readable; you will find that in the sixty amp model the two pullouts are
in series and in the one hundred ampere model the pull outs are in
parallel. Both models have auxiliary lugs for connection to a fused
switch for a water heater or dryer. The second pull out was intended to
supply an electric range. In the sixty ampere model the auxiliary lugs
are in series with the main pullout. In the 100 ampere model they are
in parallel and supplied directly from the main lugs.
--
Tom Horne
"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT
Safety Cowards are we. Since I crawl down long smoke choked hallways
looking for other peoples relatives at the true minimum rate of nothing
an hour you can't get under my skin with drivel like that.
Being only one firefighter out of the entire nation's fire and rescue
service I have to believe that the problem is real when I have attended
two instances of electric shock caused by the technique you espouse.
In one case a child playing in the garage plugged in the suicide cord
and was badly burned when they tried to plug the other end into another
outlet. I know that a superior being like yourself would never allow
that to happen at your home just as the superior being that made that
cord thought it would never happen at their house.
In the other instance we responded to a 911 call from tree crew that was
clearing tree limbs from power lines when the back feed from a generator
caught the tree company's owner's son unaware. They had been assured by
the POCO that the entire substation was off line. We had to wait; while
the father begged us to get his boy down; for the power company crew to
ground out the half block segment of broken line that was still
connected to the high side of a neighborhood transformer. That was one
of the longest waits in my life. The sneak current path in that case
was a defective contactor in the energy conservation control of a water
heater. Of course your superior water heater would never develop a
defect that would cross connect it's two heating elements. The POCO
outside superintendent pulled an old but well cared for set of climbing
gear out of his sedans trunk and personally climbed the pole, business
suit and all, to cut the offending homes service drop off of the pole.
That house was the last in my fire departments service area to have
public power restored. He had to pay an electrician to inspect his
entire wiring system before he got his power back. I know, I know
nothing like that will ever happen at your house.
--
Tom Horne
Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
Just working men and women most remarkable like you.
Tom Horne, Electrician
I have installed at least ten interlock kits complete with flanged inlet
to hook up the generator without using a suicide cord for $150.00 US or
less. The mechanical interlock kit prevents the generator breaker from
being closed at the same time as the main breaker. Of course I do
conduct a megohmmeter test between the main panel buss and the meter
load lugs to assure that the breaker does not have any sneak current
path around it.
Bill Kaszeta / Photovoltaic Resources
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42162
100 AMP GENERATOR MANUAL TRANSFER SWITCH
ITEM 42162-5VGA
$239.99
Bill Kaszeta
Photovoltaic Resources Int'l
Tempe Arizona USA
bi...@pvri-removethis.biz
JoeSP
Might be a good engineer, but he's a total novice with matters of safety.
JoeSP
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:17:19 GMT, "JoeSP" <ol...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> This architecture is reasonably safe if operated by a competent person
>>> and the cost is minimal. Perhaps a couple hundred dollars if you buy
>>> everything new.
>>>
>>
>>Anything to avoid a $100 transfer switch...
>
> Hey, spud, show me a transfer switch installed for $100 and yer on.
> Show me a transfer switch sitting on the store shelf for $100 for that
> matter, and yer on.
On for what?
JoeSP
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:17:19 GMT, "JoeSP" <ol...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> This architecture is reasonably safe if operated by a competent person
>>> and the cost is minimal. Perhaps a couple hundred dollars if you buy
>>> everything new.
>>>
>>
>>Anything to avoid a $100 transfer switch...
>
> Hey, spud, show me a transfer switch installed for $100 and yer on.
> Show me a transfer switch sitting on the store shelf for $100 for that
> matter, and yer on.
http://www.nooutage.com/tca0603d.htm
swattsup
1. It's for RV's. I don't know if a code inspector would go for it in a
residential setting. 2. It's single pole and good for only 1 circuit.
#. 3. Price doesn't include inlet or anything needed to make it
functional. (although the challenge didn't specifically mention it
either.)
Tony Wesley
> >Sounds quite complicated and dangerous to me. I wouldn't trust a novice,
> >perhaps shaken by a hurricane, maybe without glasses or flashlight to
> >operate some such setup as that.
> I guess we're made of tougher stuff down here but it'd take a LOT more
> than a hurricane or a tornado (BTDT) for me to become "shaken".
John, you're not a novice. As much as I can tell through your posts,
you're a smart cookie and I'd like to have you around in the case of
disaster.
In my eyes, the problem with the "suicide cable" is that person taking
the gamble isn't the one at risk. Consider the risk/reward here. The
reward (saving the installation of a transfer switch) goes to the
person who makes the gamble. The risk goes to a lineman.
Again John, I'd trust you. But I wouldn't trust someone who has to ask
where to buy such a cable.
TerrificInTahom...@yahoo.ca
GeekBoy wrote:
> "Eric Sears" <pho...@025379386.for.email.address> wrote in message
> news:4482c1d8...@news.clear.net.nz...
> > On 4 Jun 2006 02:35:17 -0700, "Platt" <rama...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Canada / USA uses a SPLIT phase 240 Volt circuit for High Wattage
appliances.
When the lines are dragged into a home with greater than 60 AMPs at the
meter base, it usually has 2 phases of 120 volts and a single Neural
Line that balances the power between both legs of the pole or
underground transformer.
In Europe , the UAE, rest of the world probably, but Eric Sears can
confirm, there is ONLY single phase
240 Volt power at the outlets. Japan may be different and have SPLIT
phase 120/240 as United states but dont quote me on it.
-Terrific In Tahoma
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT
> I have installed at least ten interlock kits complete with flanged inlet
>> to hook up the generator without using a suicide cord for $150.00 US or
>> less. The mechanical interlock kit prevents the generator breaker from
>> being closed at the same time as the main breaker. Of course I do
>> conduct a megohmmeter test between the main panel buss and the meter
>> load lugs to assure that the breaker does not have any sneak current
>> path around it.
>> --
>> Tom Horne
>>
>> "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
>> for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
swattsup wrote:
> Hi Tom:
>
> I've seen you're a big proponent of this interlock and it sounds great.
> Unfortunately, it would require a complete load center replacement for
> me = expensive. A few questions if you don't mind.
>
> 1. Does replacing a load center usually require a licensed electrician
> as it's much simpler than the initial set up. My local code is so
> vague, changing a light bulb could be construed as needing an
> engineering plan and hiring a contractor.
>
> 2. If I need to hire someone - what should the general labor cost
> range be. I can get a good deal on the hardware at Lowe's. (Square-D
> HOMVP9)
>
> 3. How much does the interlock cost? I haven't been able to find any
> distributors locally that carry it except for one who has a $100 min.
> for special orders. Although there is still a couple I need to check
> with.
>
> 4. Would this,
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42163,
> be a viable alternative?
>
> Thanks for your time. Feel free to post this to the NG if you wish - I
> just didn't want to clutter up the thread with my personal questions
> ;-)
Changing out the panel is generally done under permit and inspection.
In the Mid Atlantic area the panel change out would run between $700 and
$1000 US in rough numbers. There are several factors that might raise
the cost.
The interlock kit will cost about seventy dollars retail at an
electrical supply house.
In your case that is a very cost effective solution. Installed cost
should run about four hundred and that beets the heck out of the cost of
a panel change out. Since the switch is NEMA type 3R it can be
installed out doors. The meter would supply the top terminals while the
bottom terminals can be connected to a flanged inlet to except the
regular cord cap of a generator extension cord. The existing meter tail
would be connected to the center terminals of the switch through a knock
out located in the bottom of the enclosure on the same side as the
wiring tray so that none of the conductors from any source have to cross
the load conductors or the conductors of the other source. You do that
to avoid a single failure taking down both sources.
A tactic to consider is to install a feed through lug panel ahead of
your existing main. You buy one that excepts an interlock kit and you
install it between the meter and the existing panel. The parts cost
would be about the same as for the transfer switch and flanged inlet and
like the switch you can install the flanged inlet in the bottom of the
enclosure. The advantage to that approach is you pick up the additional
breaker slots in the new panel. Since those slots are outdoors; unless
you have room for the feed through panel inside; you would use them to
supply your outdoor loads such as a well, air conditioner, out
buildings, and so forth.
Neon John
wrote:
Uh, Tony, that's what I said in my original post. But unlike some of
the other folks who post here, I a) try not to be condescending to
novices and b) I try to educate. It's the particularly egregious
poseur such as JoSP who really doesn't know what he's doing but tries
to cover with yelling and arm waving that makes asking questions and
providing answers so unpleasant. These small minded, small
charactered, horribly insecure people can spoil it for everyone.
The guy who asked about the Jesus cord wasn't, I'm pretty sure,
interested in being told how stupid he was or to shut up and go away.
He'd been told about a method of connecting a generator and wanted to
know a) will it work and b) (implied) is there a better way? I tried,
hopefully successfully, to explain the risk involved with using a
Jesus cord and then proposing an inexpensive alternative.
As for trusting, unless this guy is hooking up his generator in a
public place, it really isn't any of your business to trust or not.
This man can and will do what he likes inside the walls of his own
home.
Neon John
>
>"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
>> Hey, spud, show me a transfer switch installed for $100 and yer on.
>> Show me a transfer switch sitting on the store shelf for $100 for that
>> matter, and yer on.
>
>http://www.coloradostandby.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/25_27/products_id/1211?osCsid=8ecc09352ebbaae47b8b9ecd42371721
Well now, isn't that special. Our resident know-it-all proposes a
SINGLE POLE 30 amp RV transfer switch, not approved for non-RV use of
course, for this application. I wonder if he thinks that it's OK to
sorta ignore that other leg of the 240 volt service. Assuming that he
would have cited a 2 pole 240 volt 50 amp RV unit had he been slightly
more clueful, let's think this through. BTW, Joe, if you really did
have a clue you'd know that this sort of transfer switch costs under
$60 from RV suppliers.
On one hand we have hero-Joe's 50 amp transfer switch. On the other
we have our 200 amp service panel. Hmmm, a slight mis-match. We
can't break the entrance to insert the switch because a) the switch
isn't approved for that and b) it'd be 4X overloaded. What to do,
what to do?
Oh, I know, we'll install a sub-panel. We'll just connect all our
loads that we want supplied to the generator to the sub-panel and
route that through the transfer switch (still ignoring the lack of
approvals, of course.)
But wait, we have a problem. The careful electrician who wired the
panel cut all the wires to length. We can't just snake those wires
out of the box and run 'em to the sub-panel - they're not long enough.
We could run jumper wires from the sub-panel back to the main panel
and wire-nut them together using the main panel as a tie-box. But
that won't work cuz the main panel is already full of wires. So we're
going to have to put a junction box of some sort next to the main
panel in close enough proximity that the wire stubs can be inserted
enough to splice on the jumpers that go to the sub-panel.
But wait, our main panel is mounted in the wall and trimmed out nicely
so that none of the wiring is visible. That means we'll have to cut
the paneling, scab in the sub-panel and junction box and then try to
make it look OK when we're finished.
Suddenly it's not just the $99 that Joe's going to spend on the
improper transfer switch. It's that plus another hundred for the
sub-panel and breakers plus another oh, $50 for the junction box,
hardware and wiring. Plus the services of a carpenter to try to
salvage something of the wall that looks good after we hack around the
main panel.
See, what has flown past Joe is that we gotta use a 200 amp transfer
switch, not because the generator is going to make 200 amps but
because the NORMAL SERVICE is of that rating. Further, an automatic
transfer switch is pretty useless in this application because someone
still has to manually shed the non-essential loads so that the
generator isn't overloaded. A manual 200 amp transfer switch would be
the appropriate device but neither Joe nor anyone else is going to
find one of those new for $100. Not to mention the cost of
installation, which may be considerable since the meter will have to
be pulled so that the entrance cable can be cut and that usually means
a building permit and THAT means a licensed contractor, at least under
local law.
My adequately safe technique of two breakers, an outlet, color coding
and a checklist is starting to look mighty attractive. Duh!
Neon John
It doesn't matter what bits of hardware you have, if you backfeed and
harm someone, you're liable. Period.
Backfeeding as a risk borders on what Bruce Schneider refers to as a
"movie plot risk". Sounds good (bad?) on paper but as a practical
matter it doesn't exist enough to worry about. For many reasons.
Assume a backfeed path exists:
Unless one has his own pole pig, the load of the other customers on
the pig will instantly trip the generator when it is tied on.
Even if the customer has his own pole pig, the magnetizing inrush
coupled with the capacitive loading of the feeder line will equally
overload and trip the generator.
Assuming for a moment that this didn't happen, unless the feeder going
to that isolated pole pig is itself isolated (by a downed line, blown
primary fuse, etc), the OTHER pigs, PF caps and other apparatus on the
line presents such a load to the generator that it is still instantly
tripped.
Assuming that doesn't happen, the first thing the linemen do when they
arrive at a scene is put on the hot gloves. All conductors, even
those laying on the ground, are considered hot. The second thing the
linemen are going to do when they arrive is lay in grounding jumpers.
All purportedly cold lines are positively grounded before any work
commences. When that first grounding jumper goes on, the generator is
instantly shorted and trips or quits.
I acknowledge that there is a tiny, infinitesimal, not-quite-zero
chance that all the odds stack up and a generator somehow, somewhere
will successfully backfeed, that the line crew won't wear their gloves
and they won't lay grounds and maybe someone gets hurt. Never say
never. That's why I teach people how not to backfeed. But as a
utility engineer who apprenticed in a line crew and who still
occasionally rides a bucket truck, I'm not the least bit worried about
backfeeding.
In a disaster-recovery situation, backfed power is so far down the
list of hazards (switching orders get confused and lines stay hot,
protective apparatus is damaged by the event and malfunctions,
lightning striking near enough to induce hazardous voltage in the
"dead" line, etc) that it isn't worth expending more than passing
thought. When I follow my training - glove up, ground, gut and
blanket conductors in the vicinity, treat all conductive materials as
hot until proven otherwise, I address ALL those risks at once.
This is, as they say, much ado over nothing.
Jens Kr. Kirkebø
"TerrificInTahom...@yahoo.ca"
<TerrificInTahom...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>In Europe , the UAE, rest of the world probably, but Eric Sears can
>confirm, there is ONLY single phase
>240 Volt power at the outlets. Japan may be different and have SPLIT
>phase 120/240 as United states but dont quote me on it.
Actually, we might have three phase outlets too. Usually used for
running large air compressors, high-pressure washers and such. Most
homes here in Norway have three-phase service. Either 230V or 400V.
JoeSP
"Jens Kr. Kirkebø" <j...@scm.no> wrote in message
news:6tog82lrife0d4jct...@4ax.com...
According to this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_phase_power
Three-phase power is used all over the world.
Me
Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> On 6 Jun 2006 00:29:55 -0700, "swattsup" <swat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Don't forget liability. I read a post recently (forget where/by who)
> >that was to effect - in case there is an injury/death of a lineman who
> >in the neighborhood is going to be blamed and sued? Those with
> >transfer switches? Those using extension cords for each appliance? Or,
> >someone with a suicide cord plugged into the dryer outlet?
>
> It doesn't matter what bits of hardware you have, if you backfeed and
> harm someone, you're liable. Period.
>
> Backfeeding as a risk borders on what Bruce Schneider refers to as a
> "movie plot risk". Sounds good (bad?) on paper but as a practical
> matter it doesn't exist enough to worry about. For many reasons.
> Assume a backfeed path exists:
>
what Mr. Neon John doesn't say is that while that "Instant Trip" is
taking place, a Primary Side Winding Voltage Pulse of xKva is
propagating down the feeder, and anyone or anything that is
between the line and ground/neutral, is going to see that pulse.
It may be milliseconds in length, or what ever the relevent "Instant
trip" time for whatever is triping, but it is still there and it does go
down the feeder at feeder voltage. This is what Linemen worry about
when repairing feeders that have improperly connected gensets, during
outages.
>
> This is, as they say, much ado over nothing.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
Me been there, seen that, received the tingles, tracked down
the dummys, and cutoff their service......more than once...
Pooh Bear
JoeSP wrote:
> "Jens Kr. Kirkebř" <j...@scm.no> wrote in message
Well... Yes ! What fuckbrains have been saying otherwise ?
Graham
Eric Sears
Just a comment or two.
Firstly, thanks for the comments about power systems in other parts of
the world - its always good to learn.
Secondly, I am not a "sparky" , so an electrician could probably make
more useful comments about power systems in NZ.
Thirdly, however, what I said in my post was that most HOMES (ie
residences) in NZ have single phase 230v power. By "most" I mean
probably more than 95%. But most people can chooose 2 or 3 phase if
they wish. I think most are also 60amp service (standard 15kvA service
from most companies) - though some are 100 amp.
Many businesses have 3-phase, especially if they have higher power
needs - but as always, you pay "more for more service" - so if its not
needed, businesses will also use single phase.
While the great majority of the NZ power system is 3-phase, we still
have a few rural areas where there is only a single-wire line with
earth return - which means single phase only. In fact, I know of an
area where a new extension of this type has recently gone in.
Basically its a matter of economics - especially as customers have to
either pay for, or make very large contributions towards the cost of
such lines.
Eric Sears.
Tony Wesley
Neon John wrote:
> Uh, Tony, that's what I said in my original post. But unlike some of
> the other folks who post here, I a) try not to be condescending to
> novices and b) I try to educate.
Yep, and I appreciate it.
> It's the particularly egregious
> poseur such as JoSP who really doesn't know what he's doing but tries
> to cover with yelling and arm waving that makes asking questions and
> providing answers so unpleasant.
Right. I notice he ran away from the "hydrogen" thread.
> [...] I tried,
> hopefully successfully, to explain the risk involved with using a
> Jesus cord and then proposing an inexpensive alternative.
I thought it was a good post.
> As for trusting, unless this guy is hooking up his generator in a
> public place, it really isn't any of your business to trust or not.
> This man can and will do what he likes inside the walls of his own
> home.
I agree with that if and only if the effects of what he does stay
inside the walls of his house. Since linemen have been killed by
backfeeding generators, that's clearly not the case.
Steve Cothran
>Me been there, seen that, received the tingles, tracked down
> the dummys, and cutoff their service......more than once...
With all due respect, how is it that you got "tingled"? Although not
one myself, I work with many a lineman around here (TN) and have yet
to find one that allowed AC through his body...even a tingle.
Not picking a side, just curious. From what I have observed, to shock
a lineman, my genny would have to overcome the step-up ratio of the
polepig which is shorted to ground by what looks like at least a 6 AWG
jumper/clamp.
And just for shits 'n grins..... I have a proper transfer switch.
(PeteCresswell)
>With all due respect, how is it that you got "tingled"? Although not
>one myself, I work with many a lineman around here (TN) and have yet
>to find one that allowed AC through his body...even a tingle.
I worked for a major urban electric utility for over 20 years. Cannot cite,
but the conventional wisdom there was that there are a *lot* of one-armed
ex-lineman walking around.
--
PeteCresswell
Solar Flare
Linesman is one of the lowest death rate (by electrocution) of most
professions. Now liver failure is a bigger cause of death in
linespeople.
Slips and falls far exceed electrocution as a cause of accidents. I
think it was about 3 to 1 last year
"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:kojh82dheg5pn4aic...@4ax.com...
Neon John
>what Mr. Neon John doesn't say is that while that "Instant Trip" is
>taking place, a Primary Side Winding Voltage Pulse of xKva is
>propagating down the feeder, and anyone or anything that is
>between the line and ground/neutral, is going to see that pulse.
>It may be milliseconds in length, or what ever the relevent "Instant
>trip" time for whatever is triping, but it is still there and it does go
>down the feeder at feeder voltage. This is what Linemen worry about
>when repairing feeders that have improperly connected gensets, during
>outages.
Ah, no. But that WAS an interesting guess. Might I suggest some
remedial circuit analysis home study?
A few observations.
Curious munging of concepts when you claim that a voltage pulse has
some sort of KVA rating.
Old rule of computing: A zero will suck a one down every time. Holds
true for power circuits too, a zero in this case being the short to
ground. Still trying to relate that to a voltage pulse into a short.
A half cycle at 60 hz is 16.667 milliseconds, just to reference your
conception of the time scale involved.
At least in sub-continental distance terms, 60hz current doesn't
"propagate". It's either there or it's not, on both ends of the wire
at effectively the same time.
You demonstrate one of the hazards of trying to use multi-syllabic
words when only equipped with a single-syllable education. You sound
silly. Funny but silly nonetheless.
A comma is a terrible thing to abuse. Please learn how to use 'em.
Linemen "worry" about a lot of things. How cold their hands and feet
are or alternately, how big the damned mosquitoes are. When they're
next going to get a warm meal. What sort of gotchas the next union
contract is going to contain. They don't worry about your puny
generator - at least nobody does except for the company's resident
safety nazi. They lay grounds and wear hot gloves to take care of
that problem.
Those grounds and gloves are much more vital when, for instance, a
supervisor who's been driving a desk for the past few years decides to
be a hero and mistakenly closes in the breaker on the line being
worked. That happens uncomfortably often, unfortunately.
BTW, when that happens and a few tens of thousands of amps of fault
current flows for a half cycle or so until the breaker trips again, no
"voltage wave" "propagates" down the line. The grounding line may
jump a bit and the conductor that are still up may sway slightly from
the magnetic forces but the conductor(s) remain at ground potential,
clamped there by the grounding cables.
Tom Horne, Electrician
Steve
If the primary of your pole pig is shorted to ground were is your homes
power coming from?
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT
You keep saying it can't happen because the generators breaker would
open and yet the CDC has several of these generator back feed deaths on
record following OSHA fatality investigations.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/90pr05.html
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9002.html
--
Tom Horne
Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.
Steve Cothran
<hor...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Steve
>If the primary of your pole pig is shorted to ground were is your homes
>power coming from?
I was referring to _every time_ they come to work on the pole. They
glove, cover and ground before starting any work.
Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department
That is indeed the drill as they say but when they are fourteen hours
into a sixteen hour shift they could forget. The line could be
fractured open between the back feed and the grounding point because the
line has been struck by falling trees or limbs. The weather covering
could make the line appear intact.
JoeSP
"Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department"
<postm...@takomaparkfire.org> wrote in message
news:PNtig.149$OL2.137@trnddc06...
> Steve Cothran wrote:
>> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 19:25:31 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
>> <hor...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Steve
>>> If the primary of your pole pig is shorted to ground were is your homes
>>> power coming from?
>>
>> I was referring to _every time_ they come to work on the pole. They
>> glove, cover and ground before starting any work.
>
> That is indeed the drill as they say but when they are fourteen hours into
> a sixteen hour shift they could forget. The line could be fractured open
> between the back feed and the grounding point because the line has been
> struck by falling trees or limbs. The weather covering could make the
> line appear intact.
> --
It's sad that linesmen have to go through such elaborate procedures every
time they work, just because a few idiots think they have some god-given
right to hook up generators to the line any way they please. Then, if an
accident happens, they will probably be the first to blame the linesman. I
can't blame them for wanting to provide lousy service sometimes.
daestrom
"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" <hor...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:q3kig.3746$lp....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Neon John wrote:
>> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:56:23 GMT, Me <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>>
>>
>
> You keep saying it can't happen because the generators breaker would open
> and yet the CDC has several of these generator back feed deaths on record
> following OSHA fatality investigations.
> http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/90pr05.html
> http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9002.html
These incidents show exactly *why* electrical linemen are being trained that
a line isn't dead until tested and grounded. The practice of just checking
the feeder is deenergized by checking conditions at the substation, or
pulling fuses is no longer enough. Because someone may have a portable
generator feeding into the line.
So, nowdays a lineman that follows all the precautions would not be harmed
by a back-feeding generator. Does that mean it's okay for the private
homeowner to back-feed into the local distribution? And ignore any
laws/codes for his AHJ because, "If the linemen are injured, its because
they didn't follow their safety training." ??
Is it really an 'accident' if one willfully violates a local building code
that results in someone elses death, or is it manslaughter?
daestrom
Neon John
event for a lineman to even get flashed, much less shocked or
electrocuted. "Major" in that there is usually a day of safety
stand-down for training and consultation. I can't recall the last
time that happened.
John
Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department
The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) is committed
to seeking manslaughter indictment against anyone who's back feed causes
the death of an outside wireman.
(PeteCresswell)
>It's sad that linesmen have to go through such elaborate procedures every
>time they work, just because a few idiots think they have some god-given
>right to hook up generators to the line any way they please.
That is not the only reason. There's also the possibility that the line, even
though the dispatcher or whoever says it is shut off, is energized.
--
PeteCresswell
swatts
Everyone here has been focusing almost exclusively on whether or not
linemen(women) are safe from generator back-fed homes.
What about the poor neighbors, emergency workers, pets...? It could
be days, weeks, months before a lineperson gets anywhere near your
lines.
@truthonly RamRod Sword of Baal
"JoeSP" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:qdBig.28175$A8.24605@clgrps12...
I agree no one should hook up a genny feed without a tranfer switch to their
home wiring, but it would be interesting to see the winding being ripped out
of their generators if the mains came back on and them ending up with a
frazzled genny.................
swatts
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT wrote:
> > Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
> > I have installed at least ten interlock kits complete with flanged inlet
> >> to hook up the generator without using a suicide cord for $150.00 US or
> >> less. The mechanical interlock kit prevents the generator breaker from
> >> being closed at the same time as the main breaker. Of course I do
> >> conduct a megohmmeter test between the main panel buss and the meter
> >> load lugs to assure that the breaker does not have any sneak current
> >> path around it.
> >> --
> >> Tom Horne
> >>
> >> "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
> >> for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
>
> swattsup wrote:
> > Hi Tom:
> >
> > I've seen you're a big proponent of this interlock and it sounds great.
> > Unfortunately, it would require a complete load center replacement for
> > me = expensive. A few questions if you don't mind.
> >
> >
> > 4. Would this,
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42163,
> > be a viable alternative?
<more snipping >
Brilliant. Never thought of using another panel ahead of the main panel
- only just as a sub-panel. Been focusing on DPDT switches and other
such 'officially labelled' transfer devices. But wouldn't a main lug
panel suffice instead of a feed through lug panel as the outside power
would be back-feed through a breaker?
One fly in the ointment is that my service entrance breaker is rated at
150A. it's outside at the meter. I don't care about other loads on
this panel so the smaller the box the better as it needs to be mounted
indoors near the main panel.
All the smaller breaker panels for sale seem to have a max rating of
125A. 150A ones seem to only come in "full size." Would the following
allow one to use a 125A panel and back feed it from the 150A mains?
"Supply-Side Connections-690.64(B)(2) Dwelling Units
Now, let us examine the installation requirements for dwelling units.
The exception for 690.64(B)(2) reads: "For a dwelling unit, the sum of
the ampere ratings of the overcurrent devices shall not exceed 120
percent of the rating of the busbar or conductor.""
Alternatively, do you know of any petite 150A main lug/circuit breaker
panels?
As a last resort, I could replace the main breaker with a 125A one and
then use the 150A in the transfer panel so I only have to buy 1 large
breaker. Hey, I'm really trying to get this to work here.
You know, If Square D, GE, Siemans, et al can put together a "value
pack" that includes load center, 150/200A main breaker and a dozen+
assorted branch breakers and sell them for less than $120 - there is no
reason they couldn't easily do a transfer panel for less than that!
Except perhaps greed and short-sightedness.
Thanks,
Stephen
Tom Horne, Electrician
>> A tactic to consider is to install a feed through lug panel ahead of
>> your existing main. You buy one that excepts an interlock kit and you
>> install it between the meter and the existing panel. The parts cost
>> would be about the same as for the transfer switch and flanged inlet and
>> like the switch you can install the flanged inlet in the bottom of the
>> enclosure. The advantage to that approach is you pick up the additional
>> breaker slots in the new panel. Since those slots are outdoors; unless
>> you have room for the feed through panel inside; you would use them to
>> supply your outdoor loads such as a well, air conditioner, out
>> buildings, and so forth.
>> --
>> Tom Horne
>>
>> "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
>> for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
Square D suppliers can order a twelve slot min breaker panel with a 150
amp main breaker and feed through Lugs. Those will take a main breaker
and slot 1&2 interlock kit
daestrom
> Echo that. For both the utilities I consult to, it is a major, major
> event for a lineman to even get flashed, much less shocked or
> electrocuted. "Major" in that there is usually a day of safety
> stand-down for training and consultation. I can't recall the last
> time that happened.
>
> John
>
Probably very true. Yet a lineman were electricuted last year during
hurricane recovery. He was on loan from our parent company helping recovery
from Isabelle in VA. Long hours and unusual working conditions may have
caused him to miss a safety step. But the line was *supposed* to be
deenergized, not sure why it wasn't though. Nevertheless, he is dead.
Blame who you want, the guy left his regular job to travel to a disaster
area and help others, and now he's dead.
daestrom
Solar Flare
failure, a friend died in a fire, two other friends died in a
motorcycle accident,
and, ohhh yeah. One linesman oot of a few hundred I have known for
35 years died of a heart attack in a hotel room with a hooker last
year. Hmmm.... He did get a 2400 shock back 25 years ago...maybe that
was the cause???
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jHWig.14651$W97....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...