I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!
Hades
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
question, are these people you know or just strangers who ask for your
services?
Matt.
::SLAVE SCREAMS:He spends his life learning conformity! ::
::SLAVE SCREAMS:He claims he has his own identity! ::
::SLAVE SCREAMS:He's going to cause the system to fall! ::
::SLAVE SCREAMS:But he's glad to be chained to that wall!::
::Dont open your eyes you won't like what you see.::
::The blind have been blessed with security!::
::Dont open your eyes, take it from me, ::
::I have found, you can find, happiness in slavery::
Tiff Gorman
I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
Tiff
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Tiff Gorman - Artist/Designer - ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
http://www.maui.net/~babblero/tiffg.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Martha J. Retallick
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
I've got a story to tell everyone:
Earlier this week, my neighbor-the-computer-programmer and I met with
two representatives of a group that desires a website.
They envision this website as a community service-type project, for
which they'd like free prototype development work. Neighbor would do
the heavy-duty programming, and I'd do design/HTML.
Then they would use this prototype to attract funding, and once they
got some, they'd put the project out for bid. The fact that we'd done
the upfront work would "count for something" during the bid review,
but that's all.
Needless to say, neighbor and I didn't just walk away from this one,
we ran!
Martha J. Retallick, lnr...@azstarnet.com
http://www.azstarnet.com/~lnrider (enter the eclectic web...)
Bucky Dauggy
Angst is the juice.
DickWeltz
They envision this website as a community service-type project, for
which they'd like free prototype development work. Neighbor would do
the heavy-duty programming, and I'd do design/HTML.
Then they would use this prototype to attract funding, and once they
got some, they'd put the project out for bid. The fact that we'd done
the upfront work would "count for something" during the bid review,
but that's all.
Needless to say, neighbor and I didn't just walk away from this one,
we ran!
<<
Martha: There's a sucker born every minute. Glad to hear you weren't one
of them!
-- Dick Weltz, Spectrum Multilanguage Communications, NYC
America's leading translators & foreign language typesetters
===================================================
Visit our Language News & Notes on the Web at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/SpectrumLang
Greg Morrison
>Subject: I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!
>Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:22:36 GMT
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>Tiff
They expect you to live like a monk, so you can provide your services for
free. And if you weren't so selfish, you would <G>.
It's the same all over. The people I call on are in business to
make a profit, yet many of them expect their vendor (me) to work on a profit
margin that would put them out of business.
When they're selling, they are capitalists. When they are buying, they're
socialists.
Stay cool....
filobedo
>
> I am an artist/designer.
> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>
> Tiff
>
> Tiff Gorman - Artist/Designer - ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
> http://www.maui.net/~babblero/tiffg.html
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
filo:main boner
Paul Hurley
wrote:
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
Here's something I use that generally works well:
"Thank you, I'm not interested. Goodbye."
Paul Harris
> I am an artist/designer.
> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>
This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
clients, then do so.
Paul Harris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WORD WORKS TECHNICAL COMMUNICATIONS
Design & Layout
Digital Typesetting (604)384-3076
Editing & Writing (604)384-4402 (fax)
1013 Pendergast St.
Victoria, BC V8V 2W8 Word...@IslandNet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rick Martin
Harris) wrote:
> Tiff Gorman wrote:
>
> > I am an artist/designer.
> > I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> > blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> > these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
> >
> > Tiff
> This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
> clients, then do so.
>
> Paul Harris
I agree. You post a message stating that you're looking for work, then you
jeapordize those possible future employment opportunities by following it
up with a bizarre rant. I can see it now, "Hold on, I think we've found
our artist. She's pretty tempermental *and* she bills herself as an Angry
Artist." Tiff, the world is choked with way too many Angry Artists.
Keep in mind, I agree with your sentiment, but I sincerely doubt that
you're going to find *anyone* here in alt.design.graphics is going to
disagree with the issue of an artist's right to get paid what they're
worth.
It's a bit like preaching to the choir. Or cutting off your nose to spite
your face. One of those cliches.
Rick
---------------
Rick Martin
rma...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~rmartin/index.html
The Hammerworks: Ministry of Art and Design
Jay H Williams
> blatantly expect my services for free....
To Tiff (Who is ticked!)
Yeah...I hear ya!
I've been doing graphic design since 1965, I have had my own graphic
design firm since 1979 and I STILL get many people asking for free
services.
Mainly from EVERY organization or club I join...it will never end. I
suggest to you to discipline yourself to reject any free request and stick
to your guns about needing your fees paid (50% up front if possible).
When you DEMAND a fee, most INTELLIGENT people are then "slapped awake" to
the fact that your time (AND TALENT) is valuable and needs to be paid
for. If they pay you an advance then they have made an investment and MAY
gain respect for the value of your service.
One observation I had is that I believe most people wish they had your
capabilities. They may think you are the lucky one and that it is such a
joy for you to do your art and to do so naturally. Therefore they may play
on this and ask you to do it for free....TO BE NICE TO THEM! Forget it!
Tell them this is your livelihood and you need to get paid just as THEY
get a paycheck or an income for what ever they do.
In response to your statement "What the fuck do people want these days?"
Study art history, you know, like Michelangelo and see what some of
these guys had to put up with in those days. It has always been this way
and always will, it not just "these days".
GOOD LUCK Tiff and get and stay tough. >: ^ )
Jay Williams
jw...@jwdc.com
http://www.jwdc.com
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\ \
\ Its one thing to have a presence on the web. \
\ \
\ Another thing to have a powerful and \
\ professional looking and visually effective web site \
\ \
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/ /
/ ALWAYS PUT YOUR BEST FOOT FORWARD! : ^ ) /
/ /
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Barbie Kew
> What the fuck do people want
>these days?
To borrow a phrase: JUST SAY NO !!
--
888888888888888888
Barbie Kew
Smoke'n 'em.
888888888888888888
Barbie Kew
>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>clients, then do so.
Typical Brit-blow, I would think. JUST SAY NO !! But don't expect
any referrals in return. Sometimes a bit of free sample brings BIG
returns later. Write it off as "charity" or as advertising expense.
s...@splicer.com
>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>clients, then do so.
Paul,
If you've never had the humiliating experience of walking in to a job
lead, portfolio in hand, thinking that you've got a good chance at
landing an interesting project, only to find that the "client" doesn't
think enough of your talents to pay you, then obviously you've never
ventured outside your studio, and probably never spent much time
inside it either.
I know that many small companies don't have the money to pay
top-dollar, and I am often willing to adjust my rates to take a job
that seems interesting. Tell me that I don't deserve compensation, and
I'll call you an asshole. If that seems bizarre to you, you obviously
have never seen the real world where even designers need to eat.
Steve
<s...@splicer.com>
Charles Eicher
J. Retallick) wrote:
> I've got a story to tell everyone:
>
> Earlier this week, my neighbor-the-computer-programmer and I met with
> two representatives of a group that desires a website.
>
> which they'd like free prototype development work. Neighbor would do
> the heavy-duty programming, and I'd do design/HTML.
>
> Then they would use this prototype to attract funding, and once they
> got some, they'd put the project out for bid. The fact that we'd done
> the upfront work would "count for something" during the bid review,
> but that's all.
>
> Needless to say, neighbor and I didn't just walk away from this one,
> we ran!
Perhaps you have failed to clearly convey that your services are
financially valuable. The fact that they desire your services means you're
already halfway to your goal.
Sounds to me like you're just lacking in negotiating skills..
--
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
J Kirby Inwood
rule, I do not see paying referrals coming from freebies. Usually a
freebie will only result in a request for more freebies.
The final straw for me was when I let a local "free" distribution rag
reprint a how to business article I had on file. When it was
published, the editor had surrounded my free article with ads for my
competition.....
Bar...@smoke.com (Barbie Kew) wrote:
>>Typical Brit-blow, I would think. JUST SAY NO !! But don't expect
>>any referrals in return. Sometimes a bit of free sample brings BIG
>>returns later. Write it off as "charity" or as advertising expense.
>>--
>>888888888888888888
>> Barbie Kew
>> Smoke'n 'em.
>>888888888888888888
>>
*************************************************************
J Kirby Inwood Creative Services, DTP, Advertising and Copy Writing
Toronto Fax 416 778 5194 <http://www.inforamp.net/~kinwood/>
Matthew Carey
gna...@islandnet.com (Paul Harris) wrote:
>Tiff Gorman wrote:
>
>> I am an artist/designer.
>> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>>
>> Tiff
>
>
>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>clients, then do so.
>
>Paul Harris
Of course she will, but she obviously finds being taken for granted a
complete pain in the neck and rightly so.
Just because she is a creative person why should people assume that
creativity can be had for nothing or very little.
This is like people asking for murals and expecting to pay less than it
would cost to have the wall painted one colour by a professional firm of
decorators.
I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of business
practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
Matthew
Matthew Carey
http://www.compulink.co.uk/~peckham/
Andy Pearlman
>In article <4kppus$l...@sanjuan.islandnet.com>,
>gna...@islandnet.com (Paul Harris) wrote:
>>Tiff Gorman wrote:
>>
>>> I am an artist/designer.
>>> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>>> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>>> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
Some clever lines:
"Oh, I didn't realize this was an internship position. Why didn't you
advertise it as such?"
Whatever their company does - ask for about double your estimated fee for free.
"When you said it wasn't a paid position, I thought you meant the barter
system."
And the ever useful laugh at them.
>>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>>clients, then do so.
>>
>>Paul Harris
>
>Of course she will, but she obviously finds being taken for granted a
>complete pain in the neck and rightly so.
>This is like people asking for murals and expecting to pay less than it
>would cost to have the wall painted one colour by a professional firm of
>decorators.
>
>I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of business
>practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
Sure. But what you do, is you say, "Here's my rate." Either they say, "cool"
or they start to whine a bit. Cool - you take the job. Whine, you say, "Thank
you very much. Let me know how things are going." You waste an hour or two of
your time. If you like, you can have a small range(not more than $5 either
way), that you are willing to be flexible about.
If your rate is realistic to your skills, someone *will* pay you to do what you
do. And remember, you know people, and the graphics world is usually a small
one. If you point out to a couple of friends in the business how this place
wants freebies, it will get around. Suddenly, that place has no competent
applicants, which is what it deserves.
Andy
--
Andy Pearlman - artwork at http://tsb.weschke.com/iiw/gallery/pearlman_a.html
apea...@panix.com
"What tip do you have to leave after staying seven years in a restaurant?"
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com
people who say, upon finding out that I do 95% computer generated
illustration, "Oh, I thought you were a *real* artist."
That's right--when I want to draw a dog or an airplane or a forest, I just
hit the "DOG" button or the "AIRPLANE" button or the "FOREST" button on my
keyboard. Another morsel of wisdom often bestowed upon me: "Doesn't it
kill you that you spent all that time in art school when really all you
had to do was go out and buy a computer?"
--
Kristin, banging her head on the keyboard.
--
KNM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "If the B-2 is invisible, just announce you've built 100 of them and |
| don't build them." |
| --House Budget Committee Chairman, John Kasich,|
| on further production of the stealth bombers.|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Pollak
> Yeah...I hear ya!
> I've been doing graphic design since 1965, I have had my own graphic
>design firm since 1979 and I STILL get many people asking for free
>services.
> Mainly from EVERY organization or club I join...it will never end. I
>suggest to you to discipline yourself to reject any free request and stick
>to your guns about needing your fees paid (50% up front if possible).
I would tend to disagree, especially when it comes to community or
other volunteer organizations. Their members bring their time and
talents to the group for a particular cause. If you are good at
graphic design, and most likely you are if you have survived in the
business this long, why would you think that you can make a better
contribution to the club by going door-to-door asking for donations,
or some similar way?
Why not produce a flyer that the canvassers can use to explain the
aims of the organization and solicit community support? After all, a
couple of hours to produce a good handout may be more effective than
knocking on 500 doors.
>When you DEMAND a fee, most INTELLIGENT people are then "slapped awake" to
>the fact that your time (AND TALENT) is valuable and needs to be paid
>for. If they pay you an advance then they have made an investment and MAY
>gain respect for the value of your service.
That would of course apply in the case of a commercial organization,
where the would-be-client wants to use your donated talent for a money
making enterprise.
I don't see anything wrong with donating one's talent, time,
capabilities for a good cause. Of course there is a possibility of
being exploited, that's where good judgment comes in and knowing when
to say "I'm sorry, I don't have the time"
Karl Pollak FidoNet 1:153/965
Richmond, B.C. Canadian Infomaticon BBS
Rick Pierro
take their time paying or skip town, a never ending ression, office rent
increases, employee raises, equipment repairs and purchases, software
updates, taxes and everyone and his/her brother armed with a computer...
it's not only tough to make a buck, it tough to keep it in your pocket!
Get a 50% retainer whenever possible, this weeds out the deadbeats and
covers costs if they stiff you for the balance. Make sure you're charging
enough. Make-up a comprehensive work estimate sheet. Assign each part of
the job a time value x hourly rate. Charge for meeting time. Always add a
misc.time (1-2 hours, small jobs) and add an A/A's (author's alterations)
note in your quote. A/A's sometimes add up to more than the original
quote.
Client's want to deal with professionals, and they want to know how much!
Spell it out on your quote... 50% retainer, balance COD, unless an
established account (net 30). And call those deadbeats and ask politely
for your money.
Freebies can be a pain, especially when funds are tight... but they can be
a tax right-off, or, dare I say it, lead to paying work.
Hang tough! "Fun flies when your doing time." 20 years and stilllllllll going.
--
Rick Pierro
Insomniac Graphics (Jason Camp)
: As another angry artist, let me share my gripe of the day: The ignorant
: illustration, "Oh, I thought you were a *real* artist."
: Kristin, banging her head on the keyboard.
*puts a pillow over the keyboard*
There there. You shouldn't let ignorance get you upset. :)
Jason Camp
Insomniac Graphics
inso...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~insomnia
Sheffield Abella
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>
>
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>Tiff Gorman - Artist/Designer - ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>http://www.maui.net/~babblero/tiffg.html
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>
I know how you feel. I'm curious as to what your rate is. I never know what
to charge or if I'm overcharging or being underpaid.
For that matter does anyone have like a list of costs of various
design services or pay rate schedules?
Sheffield Abella
sh...@primenet.com
www.primenet.com/~sheff
B. A. CHENEY
(Jay H Williams) wrote:
> I've been doing graphic design since 1965, I have had my own graphic
> design firm since 1979 and I STILL get many people asking for free
> services.
> Mainly from EVERY organization or club I join...
<<Snip-a-Rola (TM)>>
Jay -
I hear ya, but just about everyone in just about every organization or
club I belong to is asked to volunteer their time & talents...if your
talent is graphic design, I don't think it's out of line for the .org to
ask you to volunteer.
I'm active in (among other things) a local theatre group & not only do all
of the actors volunteer their time, the set designers & artists (including
the professional ones) volunteer their time...often 20 hours a week for
the 8 weeks leading up to a major musical (and sometimes 20 hours a day
for the few days prior to the show)!
If you don't want to contribute to an organization, don't join it!
OTOH, though, if the group/individual requesting free services is one that
you're not affiliated with, I agree that EXPECTING free work is out of
line! REQUESTING free work is part of the program for just about any
volunteer and/or charity organization.
BAC
--
It is the opinion of the author that the opinions of the author are the author's opinions, not the opinions of those not the author.
BKelton
>In article <4kppus$l...@sanjuan.islandnet.com>,
>gna...@islandnet.com (Paul Harris) wrote:
>
>>Tiff Gorman wrote:
>>
>>> I am an artist/designer.
>>> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>>> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>>> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>>>
>>> Tiff
>>
>>
>>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>>clients, then do so.
>>
>>Paul Harris
>
>Of course she will, but she obviously finds being taken for granted a
>complete pain in the neck and rightly so.
>
>Just because she is a creative person why should people assume that
>creativity can be had for nothing or very little.
>
>This is like people asking for murals and expecting to pay less than it
>would cost to have the wall painted one colour by a professional firm of
>decorators.
>
>I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of business
>practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
>
>Matthew
>
>
>Matthew Carey
>http://www.compulink.co.uk/~peckham/
Not to mention the parade of "friends" who want stuff done for free.
2Ksquared Design Studio
-- bke...@kendaco.telebyte.com
-- http://kendaco.telebyte.com/bkelton
-- http://www.webcom.com/~breid/beth.html
Find a job that you love and
you'll never work a day in your life.
Brian Pomeroy
>
> Sometimes it is worth donating something if you see fit, but as a
> rule, I do not see paying referrals coming from freebies. Usually a
> freebie will only result in a request for more freebies.
True. And especially on the Internet, the old "I'll pay you as soon as the
project starts making money" routine is a popular one. But young creatives can
gain value from volunteering their services (preferably to a charity or a cause of
their choosing), if only to get some experience, a positive reference, and
something for their portfolio.
--
**********************
Brian Pomeroy
Web Editor, SLACK Inc.
Author, "BeginnerNet: A Beginner's Guide to the Internet and the World Wide Web"
6900 Grove Rd., Thorofare, NJ 08086 USA
E-mail: bpom...@slackinc.com
WWW: http://www.slackinc.com/
**********************
DickWeltz
just
hit the "DOG" button or the "AIRPLANE" button or the "FOREST" button on my
keyboard.<<
You mean you *don't* do it that way?!?
When we translate for clients, we just hit the computer button that says
FRENCH or JAPANESE or ARABIC, etc.
s...@splicer.com
>As another angry artist, let me share my gripe of the day: The ignorant
>people who say, upon finding out that I do 95% computer generated
>illustration, "Oh, I thought you were a *real* artist."
>hit the "DOG" button or the "AIRPLANE" button or the "FOREST" button on my
>kill you that you spent all that time in art school when really all you
>had to do was go out and buy a computer?"
Yes. I have two things to add: One is that what burns me up even more
is talking with the people who call themselves artists or designers
but never had to deal with a figure-drawing class in their entire
school careers and do simply press the "dog" button (or grab it from
their CD-ROM). I hate to say it, but there is a real class of people
out there creating that impression for us.
Second, there actually is a way to point out the fallacy of the
impression that we really do nothing but let the computer do the work,
and that is to turn it around (in a friendly way of course) and put it
back in their lap. For instance: "Ha ha--yeah. So how's life up in
accounting since the computer does all the work for you? Still trying
to find ways to justify *your* living?" or "Oh, you use CAD? I though
you were a *real* engineer." Remember to keep your comments
lighthearted. A friendly jab strengthens a friendship, but an acrid
comment can lose you an account.
Steve
<s...@splicer.com>
Rick Martin
(kmo...@wwa.com) wrote:
>Another morsel of wisdom often bestowed upon me: "Doesn't it kill you
that you spent all that >time in art school when really all you had to do
was go out and buy a computer?"
I'll admit parts of school were rather tedious, but...
Computers allow untrained designers to create absolute garbage at an
extremely fast rate for a low, low price. It's as simple as that. It takes
more than a Mac or PC with a graphics program to produce acceptable
design. No matter how many times I see an ad or a website where a designer
used a default KPT filter, it always makes me laugh... And then I think
about the fact that the person who did the work was probably the one who
undercut me on my last job bid. And we all know by now that the client
will virtually (and foolishly) always go for the lower price.
Generally, I use a computer for execution, like a pencil or a paintbrush,
not for design conception; the computer is the last step in my creative
process, not the first.
So be glad for your art school education, it raises the quality of your
work. Not automatically, of course, but simply by the fact that you've
done more than read the instruction manual for Photoshop towards the
investment of what should be your passion. And if you're going to have
your work in the marketplace, believe me, it could really use another
talented individual with a grasp of what's going on as opposed to another
Just-Add-Water Instant Oatmeal Computer Designer.
Leslieann Cox
I nievely expected the demand of millions flooding towards me for these
colorful little diddlies. But I found everyone is an artist and an
expert, especially in Ireland. So my wild poppies faided in that season
and those Irish rainbows sent me home with a new unknown promise. I now
have focused myself in other areas that would sustain my life so that I can
paint and not feel the stress of survival. When painting becomes an
income I become anxious as if I was reliving the failures of Ireland.
Therefore my paintings suffer. Ive given most of my artwork away as gifts
of love. I want the freedom. I am an artist, as well as many other
things. I expect nothing therefore I can not get angry.
Leslieann Cox
lc...@oboe.calpoly.edu
God be with you.
rnstrong
according to their budget.
I had lunch with a direct mail professional the other day who is asking
$150.00 cdn per hour for his consulting expertise.
I have been paid more than that and I have been paid MUCH less.
However, it is time that "artists' smartened up. Good ones are worth
much more than you would think. Owning a computer and some software
doesn't make you a good designer anymore than owning a portable
typewriter would have made you a writer like Hemmingway.
If you want to be paid more, go after prospects who can afford to pay
more. But always be realistic about your talent. That way you will see
your weak areas and work hard to improve them. And then you will be paid
more because your work IS better than average.
Good Luck.
Rick
rnstrong
CC
(Matthew Carey) wrote:
>I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of
>business
>practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
Here in the US it's a long standing tradition to seek out beginning
artists, (especially art students) to pour their blood out day and
night on work for the promise of a regular / paying job, only to use
their work for profit and then subsequently find another one to
similarly exploit next.
These people are often referred to as "Art Directors" who don't have
any ideas of their own, but know what they like once you've done it
for them. They suck you dry, spit you out and get paid more than any
of the others who actually do the work.
It's not WHAT you know it's WHO you know...
SIlencer
>Graphic Designers Sought by SOHO (NYC) Web Development Company
>Located in New York's Silicon Alley, the Myriad Agency is a full service
>Web design company. Using cutting-edge technology and peerless design,
>we develop progressive sites for interesting companies.
>We are currently looking for energetic, talented, and intelligent
>graphic designers interested in working on the World Wide Web. Viable
>candidates MUST know Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator and HTML 3.0. Cooler
>than average candidates will have knowledge of Director, Unix and Perl.
>This position is open immediately, salary is dependant on experience
>with the Internet and the World Wide Web, as well as general interface
>design. The range is from $25-32,000 a year plus benefits.
>Email your resume and URL(s):
>ma...@myriadagency.com
>or fax to: 212-334-5463
For $25-32,000 a year I wouldn't sweep the floors in your joint no
less design web pages for you slave drivers!....Wake up and smell the
coffee, If I know Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator AND HTML, I aint
workin for 25-32,000 a year pal!
What year you people livin in!??....it's scumbag companies like you
guys that ruin this economy because some poor starving village crack
head artist WILL take your below scale paying job just to pay the
freakin rent in his rat trap apartment and ruin it for all of us true
publishing artists that deserve the $40-$75 per hour we are REALLY
worth in the open market! and even HIGHER in NYC!
You pricks should be ashamed of yourselves!!
R Blanchard
>
> Tiff Gorman wrote:
>
> > I am an artist/designer.
> > I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> > blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> > these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
> >
> > Tiff
>
> This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
> clients, then do so.
>
> Paul Harris
Yours is a more bizarre message. People who don't pay aren't clients.
--
Rick Blanchard zŹ
WWW pages:
'da trains!' -- http://members.aol.com/Ntrainszo/web/
SLIM RAILS -- http:members.aol.com/izoi/slim-rails/slim.html
home page - http://members.aol.com/izoi/web/
blanchard design -- http://members.aol.com/rkdatazo/web/
rb Art -- http://members.aol.com/rbArtzo/web/
Urban Eagle Designs -- http://members.aol.com/urbaneagle/web/
bid...@aztec.co.za
->Just because she is a creative person why should people assume that
->creativity can be had for nothing or very little.
While setting some business cards for a printer the other day, I came
across the name of a guy I last saw about 25 years ago. I phoned him up
to say "Hi", and upon discovering that I am now involved with the printing
trade, he immediately wanted to know whether I could arrange some
free-or-ultra-cheap goodies for a club he's involved with. Sheesh !!!
Fortunately for me, I was able to sidestep the matter by referring him back
to the printer that he was already dealing with, and refusing to interfere
with one of my client's own clients .....
->I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of business
->practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
Believe me, thats a breed well known here in South Africa too ... :-(((
Cheers
Frank R Pizer
Bid...@aztec.co.za
bid...@aztec.co.za
On 15 Apr 1996 22:22:19 -0500,
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com (kmo...@wwa.com)
posted a message re: " Re: I am an ANGRY ARTIST! (Part 2)"
->As another angry artist, let me share my gripe of the day: The ignorant
->people who say, upon finding out that I do 95% computer generated
->illustration, "Oh, I thought you were a *real* artist."
Heheheheheh .... the power of advertising .... they've seen so much hype
that they've started to believe it I guess ...
->That's right--when I want to draw a dog or an airplane or a forest, I just
->hit the "DOG" button or the "AIRPLANE" button or the "FOREST" button on my
->keyboard.
Well, do as I have several times .... I just offered them the keyboard and
mouse ..... some didn't try, those that did now have more respect for my
capabilities.
->Kristin, banging her head on the keyboard.
Yes, but isn't it so nice when you stop <grin>
nbfa
had to do was go out and buy a computer?"
I'm angry too...at a thread some weeks ago along the lines of "I'm a REAL
artist and I'm angry that all you computer people have to do is buy a piece of
software and you get all the work". Then a calmed down when I realized that a
real artist, regardless of favoured media, would not have such an attitude.
Mustta been some lamer....
J Kirby Inwood
they only get that rate for some of their hours. Much of their time is
unbillable, spent prospecting, housekeeping, twiddling thumbs waiting
for phone to ring etc etc....
Don't be overly impressed by these claims. I would rather bill 40
hours a week each week at say $50 per then an our here and there at
$150 per
kirby
rnstrong <rnst...@magmacom.com> wrote:
AngryMan
<Pine.A32.3.91.960416...@harp.aix.calpoly.edu>,
Leslieann Cox <lc...@harp.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
> I expect nothing therefore I can not get angry.
You make me angry.
--
--------------------
www.angry.org
--------------------
BKelton
>You will be paid what the other person feels it is worth to them and
>according to their budget.
>
>I had lunch with a direct mail professional the other day who is asking
>$150.00 cdn per hour for his consulting expertise.
>
>I have been paid more than that and I have been paid MUCH less.
>
>However, it is time that "artists' smartened up. Good ones are worth
>much more than you would think. Owning a computer and some software
>doesn't make you a good designer anymore than owning a portable
>typewriter would have made you a writer like Hemmingway.
>
>If you want to be paid more, go after prospects who can afford to pay
>more. But always be realistic about your talent. That way you will see
>your weak areas and work hard to improve them. And then you will be paid
>more because your work IS better than average.
>
>Good Luck.
>
>Rick
Also one more note on this subject. I have long felt that
if I get $20/hr or $10 or $5 or $100 I have to judge exactly
what the "art" I am doing on the computer really is. Much of
it is "throwaway art", just digital nothingness that will not and
can not even be recycled. It's just ones and zeros. If your work
is going to be duplicated a jillion times then the price should
of course reflect the nature of the art.
H Doan
>People who claim to get $xxx per hour often neglect to mention that
>they only get that rate for some of their hours. Much of their time is
>unbillable, spent prospecting, housekeeping, twiddling thumbs waiting
>for phone to ring etc etc....
>Don't be overly impressed by these claims. I would rather bill 40
>hours a week each week at say $50 per then an our here and there at
>$150 per
>kirby
>
>>
thats why you see so many of them here... twiddling their thumbs and surfing
the net. Heck with the modem on, how do you expect to get the phone to ring???
HD
J. Eric Hendrickson
>> blatantly expect my services for free....
>
>To Tiff (Who is ticked!)
> Yeah...I hear ya!
> I've been doing graphic design since 1965, I have had my own graphic
>design firm since 1979 and I STILL get many people asking for free
>services.
>suggest to you to discipline yourself to reject any free request and stick
>to your guns about needing your fees paid (50% up front if possible).
>the fact that your time (AND TALENT) is valuable and needs to be paid
>for. If they pay you an advance then they have made an investment and MAY
>gain respect for the value of your service.
>capabilities. They may think you are the lucky one and that it is such a
>joy for you to do your art and to do so naturally. Therefore they may play
>on this and ask you to do it for free....TO BE NICE TO THEM! Forget it!
>Tell them this is your livelihood and you need to get paid just as THEY
--snip--
Thank you for putting it soooo well! Working for free is not working! The
entire concept of this thread makes no sense to me whatsoever! I'm not in
business to give things away. Designers who do this not only make it harder on
themselves, but also for other legitimate businesspeople.
I have "given away" only two jobs in my entire 15-year career! Both times
because I blew deadlines. I felt so horrible that I knew the only way I could
live with myself was to send a credit voucher and letter of apology along with
the invoice--but the job was still billed! The client knew exactly how much
the job *would have* cost (and provided me with proof of loss). Doing this
upheld my integrity and also let the client know that quality design does not
come cheap! Having happened early in our business relationship, I believe it
made them even more confident in my company. They both are still very good
clients.
Anyone who designs for "free" does a great disservice to our profession. Never
work for free. Never take a portfolio with you on a cold call! If you need to,
offer new clients a hand-delivered "reduced-price" proof COD. Don't let them
keep the proof. Doing so seems to work just fine for me ... at least until we
have established a trusting business relationship ... then things change a
bit.
Eric.
Daniel Cohen
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>Tiff
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>Tiff Gorman - Artist/Designer - ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>http://www.maui.net/~babblero/tiffg.html
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I DRAW BY HOBBY AND I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU !!!!!!!
CONGRATULATIONS.
DANIEL COHEN
coh...@einstein.com.ar
MKColling
> Perhaps you have failed to clearly convey that your services are
> financially valuable. The fact that they desire your services means you're
> already halfway to your goal.
>
> Sounds to me like you're just lacking in negotiating skills..
No, it's more than that. People in general just seem to have an awful lot
of nerve when it comes to trying to take advantage of artists. I'm a fine
artist with my own gallery. That means I have commercial rent, lights,
phone, advertising, maintenance, etc., to pay for from the proceeds of my
sales. It should be self-evident that I'm not running a free dog and pony
show.
Yet strangers have had the gall to walk into my gallery and asked for
donations of art work - people who never have purchased any of my work and
who never will. Other strangers think they have some sort of license to
come in and try to dicker prices down to half... do they dicker with other
professionals? I doubt it. And then there are all the "worthy
organizations" who like to run art auctions with donated work.
Well, when I can buy a gall bladder operation for $75 at a charity
auction, perhaps I'll reconsider donating art work; until then, donations
devalue everything that any decent person ever paid money for. By the way,
the song and dance they give about the benefits of exposure gained from
giving away work free or lending thousands of dollars of framed work to
decorate the walls of a restaurant or whatever - that's claptrap, a con.
Nobody buys the cow if the milk is free.
Barbie Kew
>Find a job that you love and
>you'll never work a day in your life.
Find a job that you love and you'll work all your life,
often to the exclusion of living a fuller life.
--
888888888888888888
Barbie Kew
Smoke'n 'em.
888888888888888888
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com
Barbie Kew <Bar...@smoke.com> wrote:
>In article <317571e2...@news.telebyte.com>, bke...@kendaco.telebyte.com says...
>
>>Find a job that you love and
>>you'll never work a day in your life.
>
>Find a job that you love and you'll work all your life,
>often to the exclusion of living a fuller life.
So it's better to have a job you hate?
--
KNM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "If the B-2 is invisible, just announce you've built 100 of them and |
| don't build them." |
| --House Budget Committee Chairman, John Kasich,|
| on further production of the stealth bombers.|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com
>
>
>
>On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:29:46 +0000,
>mat...@peckham.compulink.co.uk (Matthew Carey)
>posted a message re: " Re: I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!"
>
>
> ->Just because she is a creative person why should people assume that
> ->creativity can be had for nothing or very little.
>
>While setting some business cards for a printer the other day, I came
>across the name of a guy I last saw about 25 years ago. I phoned him up
>to say "Hi", and upon discovering that I am now involved with the printing
>trade, he immediately wanted to know whether I could arrange some
>free-or-ultra-cheap goodies for a club he's involved with. Sheesh !!!
Then, of course, there are the people who want to give you a *tiny* amount
of money to do a huge job, and expect you to be so flattered and grateful.
I once had a guy call me up and ask me to do a caricature of his entire
office for an office party (12 people total). After he described the
project, he said, "AND, I'd be willing to pay you $25.00 for it!"
Ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh......now I can go on vacation! Needless to say, I
told him if he could find someone who would do that kind of work for that
amount of money, by all means go for it.
Thomas LaPointe
>
> In article <us014276-140...@38.12.1.195>,
> us01...@interramp.com (Jay H Williams) wrote:
> >> blatantly expect my services for free....
> >
<<BIG SNIP>>
> Thank you for putting it soooo well! Working for free is not working! The
> entire concept of this thread makes no sense to me whatsoever! I'm not in
> business to give things away. Designers who do this not only make it harder on
> themselves, but also for other legitimate businesspeople.
>
> I have "given away" only two jobs in my entire 15-year career! Both times
> because I blew deadlines. I felt so horrible that I knew the only way I could
> live with myself was to send a credit voucher and letter of apology along with
> the invoice--but the job was still billed! The client knew exactly how much
> the job *would have* cost (and provided me with proof of loss). Doing this
> upheld my integrity and also let the client know that quality design does not
> come cheap! Having happened early in our business relationship, I believe it
> made them even more confident in my company. They both are still very good
> clients.
>
> Anyone who designs for "free" does a great disservice to our profession. Never
> work for free. Never take a portfolio with you on a cold call! If you need to,
> offer new clients a hand-delivered "reduced-price" proof COD. Don't let them
> keep the proof. Doing so seems to work just fine for me ... at least until we
> have established a trusting business relationship ... then things change a
> bit.
>
> Eric.
"In God we trust; all others pay cash", is a slogan that has always been
near and dear to my heart. My church always gets my services for free,
and they are very good about not abusing my service. However, if there
won't be any tangible benefit from work for other non-profits such as
GOOD exposure, they can find some other sap to do their work for free.
--
Thomas LaPointe <t...@bartola.com> | http://www.bartola.com
"...howsoever we shall be called | B&T Professional Services
to make our exit, we will die | "Graphic & Web Design
free men." - Josiah Quincy, Jr. | for the 21st Century"
Thomas LaPointe
>
> In article <317571e2...@news.telebyte.com>, bke...@kendaco.telebyte.com says...
>
> >Find a job that you love and
> >you'll never work a day in your life.
>
> Find a job that you love and you'll work all your life,
> often to the exclusion of living a fuller life.
> 888888888888888888
> Barbie Kew
> Smoke'n 'em.
> 888888888888888888
Good Point :) My wife would agree wholeheartedly.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas LaPointe mailto:t...@bartola.com | http://www.bartola.com
"...howsoever we shall be called to | B&T PROFESSIONAL SERVICES
make our exit, we will die free men." | "Graphic & Web Design
- Josiah Quincy, Jr. | for the 21st Century"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
cmi...@e-tex.com
I think you will also see that there will be fewer artists
releasing there works to the shareware markets. There is little chance
of receiving registrations for a package of a couple of hundred images
lost in a maze of ten thousand others on a CD rom.
I have even quit trying to do custom work except on a local level
and there aren't that many squirrels left out here in the woods that
need clip art..... Artistic vision does not seem to work well for me
over long distance..... What they describe and what I envisions are
not always even close to similar.....
The other day a walked into a store that had one of my images on
the door and I asked the manager where he got it.... He told me his
daughter drew it for him on their computer.... she has real
talent...(-:
I guess that's what the redraw button is for in some of the
programs I've seen....!
Anyway a couple of years back I contacted one of the distributors
who had been sending out my clip-art and I was told they had sold over
3,000 copies of my stuff that year.....$4.00 a pop.... and checking my
records I found I had received about ten verified registrations at
$15.00 a pop from purchases through this particular company...
$12,000 dollar to the middleman and I end up with $150.00.., less the
diskette cost for additional images sent, paper for printed indexes,
copier costs, labels, envelopes, mailers.....postage, gas to get me to
the post office and not even considering my time.
It has been over two years now since I have produced anything new
for the shareware art market.....I now consider it nothing more than a
hobby. I can do without the headaches that come with it. When the
shareware community feels that they must share the profits to get
quality material maybe more will be inclined to contribute and we will
see shareware lose some of it's junk-ware status and .
I used to think of folks in the following manner....give them more
and they will appreciate it more..Hah! If ever again I get involved in
such I will give them as little as I have to, so that I can get paid
for the rest....
Two weeks ago my nephew comes to visit from Dallas and tells me
him and his wife saw some of my pictures in a Doctor's office at a
hospital on a recent trip to Taiwan..... guess what.... not a single
registration from Taiwan....
I guess you might say I'm an angry artist too but it has been a
neat little ego trip.... Those blue ribbons and news-paper clippings
about my paintings and their awards in my scrapbook are the same....
nice to review, a little something to brag about..... but they won't
pay the rent....
I think I'll go back to writing......
Charles Miles
Artist/Cartoonist
Grin Graphics
ITHISML
Charles Miles
cmi...@e-tex.com
Christine-Ann Martin
I see we have some really laid back people posting here ;-)
Chris
--
Christine-Ann Martin Internet: ch...@aion.demon.co.uk
Nottingham England
Mark N. Stine
>Yes. I have two things to add: One is that what burns me up even more
>is talking with the people who call themselves artists or designers
>but never had to deal with a figure-drawing class in their entire
>school careers and do simply press the "dog" button (or grab it from
>their CD-ROM). I hate to say it, but there is a real class of people
>out there creating that impression for us.
I must admit being one of the people above. I have a 2 year degree in
Graphic Arts/Offset Printing. Although this is not my carrer, I feel
that I am reasonably good at creating pleasing documents. Isn't there
room for both an Artist and a Graphic Artist. After all I never drew
anything in class but I Loved Pasteup/Line Camera work. Oops, guess I
just dated myself! <g>
>Second, there actually is a way to point out the fallacy of the
>impression that we really do nothing but let the computer do the work,
>and that is to turn it around (in a friendly way of course) and put it
>back in their lap. For instance: "Ha ha--yeah. So how's life up in
>accounting since the computer does all the work for you? Still trying
>to find ways to justify *your* living?" or "Oh, you use CAD? I though
>you were a *real* engineer." Remember to keep your comments
>lighthearted. A friendly jab strengthens a friendship, but an acrid
>comment can lose you an account.
Good Idea!
The only way to make money in any industry is to not sell yourself too
cheep! We are all part of a collective bargaining agreement!
Mark
Mark N. Stine
mst...@ionet.net
http://www.ionet.net/~mstine
Sherry Stinson
grmo...@mailhost.gate.net (Greg Morrison) wrote:
> In article <8293585...@tiffg.demon.co.uk> ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
(Tiff Gorman) writes:
> >From: ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk (Tiff Gorman)
> >Subject: I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!
> >Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:22:36 GMT
>
> >I am an artist/designer.
> >I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> >blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> >these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>
I agree! I've had clients try to make t-shirts out of my art (without
paying), run ads in magazines using ads I've created for other mags
(without paying) and been looked at like I'm crazy if I tell them their
changes will be chargeable as AA's. And kill fees...forget it! You'll
never get paid those. Why do people expect us to "just make this little
change" for nothing? Geez!!! I think we need to buy our clients the
"Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines" from the Graphic Arts Guild
and MAKE them read it!!!!
--
Sherry L. Stinson <<>> prnt...@concentric.net | print...@aol.com
The Printed Image Electronic Design and Production Studio
"...Magazines...Catalogs...Ad Campaigns...Electronic Publishing..."
Publisher of "The Printed Image" - a hot new 'zine
for designers & printers...Subscribe at desig...@aol.com
PDF Version - ftp://users.aol.com/designzine/outgoing/
Web Version - http://users.aol.com/designzine/welcome.html
Stephanie Peters
who are definitely not interested.
Follow ups reset.
Robert, don't know if this will work but let's try it.
MadMadMax
that free expression of ideas and aesthetics have value to society,
and that these things are special qualities that should be nurtured,
protected and prized. I need to believe these things, my ego needs to
believe, because as an artist, I draw on my personal experience and
emotions to create my art, then, with fear of rejection flying in the
face of potential accolades, I present the work to what I believe to
be an appreciative audience.
Though I have known a few artists who have been able to detatch
themselves from this pot of emotional soup, I have to admit that even
after 23 years of doing this, I still take the process personally,
because a part of myself is still contained in every piece I create.
American society, a consumer society, where value equates with getting
as much stuff as possible as fast as you can get it while paying as
little as possible, and then turning around and making as much money
from the stuff you just got, doesn't really give a hoot about whether
I wrap my emotional stablity within the thin walls of my work, or
whether or not anyone understands the true value of what went into the
work's creation. Very few clients do, either. It would be foolish and
naive to expect that of them, because, for the most part, they are
drawn from the consumer society I have just described.
We can try to educate our audiences about what went into a piece's
creation, Unfortunately, we can lead a horse to water, but we can't
make him sensitive. It is a frustrating, infuriating and contradictory
career we have chosen. There is beauty and ugliness, generosity and
greed and successes and failures. It's all part of the process of
creating art for someone else's consumption. As one thread mentioned,
we have to pay the rent.
There is no solution. The problem will never be rectified. At times, I
truly believe that it is the artist's lot to be misunderstood,
mistreated and exploited. Some artist's quit in frustration, but most
continue. I know I have to. I bitch and beat my head against the wall,
because I have shared most, if not all, of the experiences expressed
in this thread.
I'm driven to make images. It's what I do.
To quote Dennis Miller: "But that's just my opinion. I could be
wrong."
--bob ratta
Jim Dompier
As a shareware author, I can sympathize with you. Allthough, the money that comes in
from my shareware is OK, if you take a look at number of registrations, vs number of
collective downloads, the numbers are terrible! Less than 1%. This means that 99% of the
people who download my software are probably for the most part, continuing to use it
beyond the 30 day trial. This has caused me to re-think my policy of offering an
un-impeeded version, with only a nag screen, in the shareware version. I will be moving
shortly to a 30 or 45 day timed versions, which legally, move's the software out of the
shareware category, to commercial software, which actually give's you much better
copyright protection. By offering software as "Shareware" you are (legally) "implying" a
license, so you loose some of the protection that you assume you have.
Have you tried packaging your clip art differently, say with an setup (installation)
which would create the various directories and organize the clipart that way? Maybe
with a Windows Help file also? Then provide a few pieces of clipart for use, with most
of it being supplied in thumbnail sheets for prospective customers to drool over? You
could supply the actuall clipart in the download, but have it in the form of password
protected zip files, or send the original work later?
Having the installation, and a standard windows help file might help to validate the
package as being software, something that people are expected to pay for.
Something else I have learned is that you hae to make it REAL EASY for people to buy the
software from you, using say CompuServe's sharware registration system, and also having
credit card ordering. This DOES help! You have to make it EASY for people to buy from
you.
Lastly, If you think that something like this may work, I would be interested in doing
the setup program, and I can also make the help file, out of your text file. I would
need something out of it for my work, a percentage or something.
It would be a great experiment, don't you think? It might work...
--
Jim Dompier
IslandSoft
isle...@lava.net
http://www.lava.net/~islesoft/
mark james perry
do something else for a living. Plumbing,.... or become an art consultant.
Lots of money in these fields.
ender
(AngryMan) wrote:
Anger is an energy!
en...@interlog.com
____________________________________
Many people try to softly tiptoe through life
So that they can arrive at death safely.
______________________________________________________
"OK, now everybody who believes in Telekinesis, raise my hand."
en...@interlog.com
Xanthan Gum
: In article
: <Pine.A32.3.91.960416...@harp.aix.calpoly.edu>,
: Leslieann Cox <lc...@harp.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
: > I expect nothing therefore I can not get angry.
: You make me angry.
: --
: --------------------
: www.angry.org
: --------------------
I'm upset that you're angry
--
----------------------
www.upset.edu
----------------------
s...@splicer.com
>By the way,
>the song and dance they give about the benefits of exposure gained from
>giving away work free or lending thousands of dollars of framed work to
>decorate the walls of a restaurant or whatever - that's claptrap, a con.
>Nobody buys the cow if the milk is free.
You bet! I was given a sage piece of advice from the owner/primary of
Spiral Graphics in Albany NY (I give him a plug because his quote is
so good, plus I can't recall his name and want to give due credit)
about working for exposure. He said "Go to the census bureau, and
you'll find that every year, thousands of people die of exposure."
Obviously there are some cases where we can benefit from having our
work in a very prominant place acting as an advertisement for us, but
most of those cases are clients who are successful enough to pay for
our work.
Steve
<s...@splicer.com>
"I got no time for drug addiction, no time for smoke and booze,
Too strong for a shortened lifespan, I got no time to lose,
It's time to shine, yeah it's hero time..." -H. Rollins
BKelton
get another phone line if you are really serious about your biz.
2Ksquared Design Studio
-- bke...@kendaco.telebyte.com
-- http://kendaco.telebyte.com/bkelton
-- http://www.webcom.com/~breid/beth.html
DickWeltz
work in a very prominant place acting as an advertisement for us, but
most of those cases are clients who are successful enough to pay for
our work.<<
You are clearly one of those who is gaining wisdom with age.
-- Dick Weltz, Spectrum Multilanguage Communications, NYC
America's leading translators & foreign language typesetters
===================================================
Visit our Language News & Notes on the Web at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/SpectrumLang
Shu-Ju Wang
> >By the way,
> >the song and dance they give about the benefits of exposure gained from
> >giving away work free or lending thousands of dollars of framed work to
> >decorate the walls of a restaurant or whatever - that's claptrap, a con.
> >Nobody buys the cow if the milk is free.
My news source is pretty flakey about these non-work related groups, but has anyone drawn the
analogy with libraries yet? People continue to purchase books when they can borrow them for
free from the library. In fact, I recall reading somewhere (yeah, that vague reference again)
that book sales actually increased after the library system was established (whenever that may
have been). Don't know if that's really true or not; maybe someone here knows?
So what's the difference between art of words and the art of images? Why would people pay for
words that they can get for free? Why would they not pay for images? Can the art community
put together a system similar to the library system, where they loan out replica artwork in the
hopes of educating the public to appreciate it, thus be more willing to invest in the real thing?
I know it's difficult to draw parallels between the two when one form is made in multiples and the
other form is not. But the fundemental question remains: why do people continue to buy books
when they can borrow it for free? If we can figure that out, we can maybe apply it to art?
I also know that I'm not addressing the problems of commercial artists, which is how this conversation
got started. But maybe if the general mentality can be changed, the commercial art market would
follow.
Shu-Ju
Thomas LaPointe
==================
Not to be a killjoy to your idea, but it's a whole lot easier to duplicate a
print or other artwork than an entire book. There *are* many free museums
where people can appreciate art, but people prefer to put it up on *their*
walls or into an ad.
Jim Cim
>> I am an artist/designer.
>> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>>
>> Tiff
You're absolutely right. The only thing I can figure is there must be a
lot of people in this saturated market that are willing to do the work
just for credit and a link to another home page. It's supply and demand.
s...@splicer.com
>>>Obviously there are some cases where we can benefit from having our
>work in a very prominant place acting as an advertisement for us, but
>most of those cases are clients who are successful enough to pay for
>our work.<<
>
>You are clearly one of those who is gaining wisdom with age.
Hah! No, I appreciate your sentiment, but I am one of those who is too
thick-headed to learn. I make the same mistakes over and over again.
When I stop making a particular mistake it is more out of conditioned
reflex (put your hand in the candle flame enough times and you'll stop
wanting to) and less from wisdom. I've paid so dearly in frustration,
anger and resentment from doing work for nothing that I am starting
not to take it anymore.
Work for free actually does have one redeeming factor: volunteering
your time for a worthy organization can make you feel better about
yourself and your relationship to the world, and can help you avoid
depression and frustration in the famine times. I know that we're not
supposed to admit it when we're not busy, but I think that we all know
that design is a feast-and-famine profession, and those famine times
can get pretty dark if you don't keep busy.
Claude Moore
something for nothing from most everyone else not just the graphics community.
Ever run a small retail business? With a retail store, the sign doesn't read
the store name, it reads " Come in Here for Free stuff for your group"
How about the construction tradesman? This guy has worked for years perfecting
his trade only to continually lose business to new people who will do half the
quality and initally save the customer a few bucks. The new guy will under bid
the talented craftsman by as little as 50.00 dollars, get the job, the customer
ends up with poor quality work and proceeds to badmouth all tradesman.
Sometimes, the customer then calls the tradesman back to correct the defects in
the cheaper guys work and proceeds to complain about how the job didn't go well.
These people, usually our customers, would NEVER admit that the reason why they
had so many problems with a job is do to their slavish drive for the lowest
possible price.
How about the guys on the street corners selling flowers without the overhead of
a formal storefront? No overhead, no problems, but it does undercut the floral
artist who is trying to support a family and a business.
I have found that usually the difference between an adaquate job and a good one
is not that much more money. This holds true whether we are talking about print
runs, graphic work, or ceramic tile. We aren't usually talking about a 500
dollar difference between most typical competitive bids. People want top
quality but are not willing to pay for it. It's human nature and is all over
our society.
Personally, it bugs me that truly talented people are not paid their worth due
to the fast buck guys who are here today and gone tomorrow. The talented ones
are then left with a less than great reputation. Like it or not, this is the
REAL WORLD.
Barbie Kew
> Can the art community
>put together a system similar to the library system, where they loan out replica artwork in the
>hopes of educating the public to appreciate it, thus be more willing to invest in the real thing?
While they may not loan out the works they are exhibiting, when is the last time
you paid an admission fee to an art gallery ? True, museums do often charge
a nominal fee. But galleries are the equivalent of book stores where people can
browse all they want for free without buying. AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT, MANY
libraries DO in fact loan out FRAMED art works -- usually replicas, but sometimes
actual originals.
Barbie Kew
>
>I think everyone needs to face reality. People are always trying to get
>something for nothing from most everyone else not just the graphics community.
>Ever run a small retail business? With a retail store, the sign doesn't read
>the store name, it reads " Come in Here for Free stuff for your group"
This is getting off-topic somewhat, but since you compare artists to
shopkeepers -- there was an article in recent issue of Wall Street Journal
by a woman who developed a line of bicycling accessories specifically
designed to alleviate discomfort of women who bicycle. She obtained
patents on a seat design, had it manufactured overseas, only to have
the manufacturer of her design undercut her by manufacturing seats
WITHOUT her trademark on them and selling them in shops alongside
her trademark seat for much less money. Naturally, many shopkeepers
who she had previously been able to sell to quit carrying her higher
priced seat in favor of the cheaper "imitations." Whereas she once
enjoyed MOST of the market-share, her share dropped to near nothing
when imitations became available. The article ends on an optimistic
note with her declaration that she is not discouraged and will continue
to do whatever she has to in order to compete and re-build market share.
In Art as in Retailing, it is a CRUEL, VISCIOUS, COMPETITIVE world.
DickWeltz
-- there are still a few days in April left to visit this month's edition
of Language News & Notes, which includes a very tasty recipe for Korean
Fried Shrimp.
If you drop in again in May, there will be a different but equally
excellent international recipe along with the other information and notes.
URL - http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/SpectrumLang
Enjoy!
-- Dick Weltz
Lynn Wooldridge
Wasn't this a patent violation?? It seems that she could have
sued... But, then I guess you have to have the funds to do something
like that. What a bummer!!
LW
Barbie Kew
>Wasn't this a patent violation?? It seems that she could have
>sued... But, then I guess you have to have the funds to do something
>like that. What a bummer!!
Yes, absolutely, and the article addressed her WISH to sue but the
futility of doing so when the manufacturers who are producing the
cheap rip-offs are located abroad. The article did not, unfortunately,
mention either the manufacturer or the country. But assume it was
one of the countries with very dubious trade treaties with the USA.
She ends the article by pleading with the US retailers to have more
ethical standards than to sell cheap imitations.
bid...@aztec.co.za
On 24 Apr 1996 03:17:01 GMT,
s...@splicer.com
posted a message re: " Re: I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!"
->Work for free actually does have one redeeming factor: volunteering
->your time for a worthy organization can make you feel better about
I think the "difference factor" comes when one volunteers of one's own free
will ..... I have done a few "freebies" here and there ... what I object
to though is the people who EXPECT freebies before they even open their
mouths .....
Cheers
Frank R Pizer
Bid...@aztec.co.za
bid...@aztec.co.za
On Wed, 24 Apr 1996 03:21:03 GMT,
cc00...@interramp.com (Claude Moore)
posted a message re: " Re: I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!"
->Personally, it bugs me that truly talented people are not paid their worth due
->to the fast buck guys who are here today and gone tomorrow. The talented ones
->are then left with a less than great reputation. Like it or not, this is the
->REAL WORLD.
You've definitely got hold of the wrong end of the stick .... competition,
good or bad wasn't the problem here .... it's people who want work fro
FREE, never mind cheaper/est ...
enskede skola
Joy Hill
Rick Martin wrote:
>
> In article <4kv3pb$3...@miso.wwa.com>, kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com
> (kmo...@wwa.com) wrote:
>
> >Another morsel of wisdom often bestowed upon me: "Doesn't it kill you
> that you spent all that >time in art school when really all you had to do
> was go out and buy a computer?"
>
> I'll admit parts of school were rather tedious, but...
>
> Computers allow untrained designers to create absolute garbage at an
> extremely fast rate for a low, low price. It's as simple as that. It takes
> more than a Mac or PC with a graphics program to produce acceptable
> design. No matter how many times I see an ad or a website where a designer
> used a default KPT filter, it always makes me laugh... And then I think
> about the fact that the person who did the work was probably the one who
> undercut me on my last job bid. And we all know by now that the client
> will virtually (and foolishly) always go for the lower price.
>Hogwash! Just because I can't "draw," doesn't mean I don't know how to
bring elements together to make terrific designs. I for one have every
admiration for those blessed with the "raw" artistic talent. But, did you
guys ever think that if it weren't for us people who buy your art,
photographs, etc. for use in our designs, you would have mighty lean
wallets? And further, I do not steal art for use in my commercial stuff.
I have downloaded some things because I really liked them, and shown them
to people as an "isn't this cool" kind of thing, or maybe used them on
the 4 or 5 birthday party invitations I send out for my sons. But humans
are humans -- if someone lays a bunch of TVs out in the road and says
take one then send the check to XXXXXX, how many TVS do you think would
be gone and how many checks do you think would be in the mail? Of course,
people will take things for free if they can get away with it. I'm
thinking there might be a lot of ego involved in posting freely
accessible stuff -- getting paid for it is just a bonus.
> Generally, I use a computer for execution, like a pencil or a paintbrush,
> not for design conception; the computer is the last step in my creative
> process, not the first.
>
> So be glad for your art school education, it raises the quality of your
> work. Not automatically, of course, but simply by the fact that you've
> done more than read the instruction manual for Photoshop towards the
> investment of what should be your passion. And if you're going to have
> your work in the marketplace, believe me, it could really use another
> talented individual with a grasp of what's going on as opposed to another
> Just-Add-Water Instant Oatmeal Computer Designer.
>
> ---------------
> Rick Martin
> rma...@io.com
> http://www.io.com/~rmartin/index.html
> The Hammerworks: Ministry of Art and Design
Dick Harper
Bar...@smoke.com (Barbie Kew) wrote:
>In article <4lh8h2$l...@nnews.ims.com>, sh...@ims.com says...
>> Can the art community
>>put together a system similar to the library system, where they loan out replica artwork in the
>>hopes of educating the public to appreciate it, thus be more willing to invest in the real thing?
The All Arts Council of Franklin County (a volunteer local arts
agency) has a new to us program we call a Rotating Arts Display. We
jury local artists and hang them in area businesses, retailers,
schools, and so on. The displays change every 4-6 weeks. We have
installed permanent display hooks at each site to ease the change.
Although this is a new activity, other groups do charge the member
businesses and pass the profits on to their artists. We probably will
too, next year.
-- Dick Harper, co-chair, AAC
[P.S. I just noticed how many groups to which my news reader will
post this followup. This is not intentional spamming; if the original
did not actually appear everywhere in sight, please gently let me know
by e-mail.]
Harper's second law: When age fights entropy, entropy wins. (Rust never sleeps)
rbha...@together.net......http://www.together.net/~rbharper/stuff.htm
Matthew Carey
In article <3188E3...@mnsinc.com>,
Joy Hill <desi...@mnsinc.com> wrote:
>Rick Martin wrote:
>>Hogwash! Just because I can't "draw," doesn't mean I don't know how to
>bring elements together to make terrific designs. I for one have every
>admiration for those blessed with the "raw" artistic talent.
Perhaps you can draw, I don't think there is anything god given about being
able to draw, it is something that most people can learn to do. Succesfully
putting elements together is a part of it. Whether using a pencil or a
mouse.
What you do with this drawing is the next problem.
[I sound just like an Art teacher - which for my sins is what I am]
Matthew Carey
http://www.compulink.co.uk/~peckham/
AngryMan
This crossposting death-thread must die.
--
angr...@angry.org
www.angry.org (204.182.40.66)
Vern Kirkman
My Junior High Art teacher thought that too! I go and visit him in
the state mental hospital all the time!
Melinda Patchen
>>Rick Martin wrote:
>>>Hogwash! Just because I can't "draw," doesn't mean I don't know how to
>>bring elements together to make terrific designs. I for one have every
>>admiration for those blessed with the "raw" artistic talent.
>Perhaps you can draw, I don't think there is anything god given about being
>able to draw, it is something that most people can learn to do. Succesfully
>putting elements together is a part of it. Whether using a pencil or a
>mouse.
>What you do with this drawing is the next problem.
>[I sound just like an Art teacher - which for my sins is what I am]
I'm shocked that an art teacher would make a remark like that! You of all
people must know that some of the best artists cannot render to save their
lives. Tsk tsk. Granted it helps to be able to render (which is really what
we're talking about rather than "draw"), but it never stopped many of the
greats. AND the ability to render has nothing to do with having the "eye" to
create.
Melinda
>Matthew Carey
>http://www.compulink.co.uk/~peckham/
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com
In article <4mrfoi$i...@vivaldi.telepac.pt>,
Bruce Wayne & Cat Woman <nop0...@mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
>
>>>Perhaps you can draw, I don't think there is anything god given about being
>>>able to draw, it is something that most people can learn to do. Succesfully
>>>putting elements together is a part of it. Whether using a pencil or a
>>>mouse.
>
>
>>the state mental hospital all the time!
>
>I assume you are all americans (the junior high stuff, etc.)
>I am european (note: why do americans think that europeans don't
>bathe? I keep seeing that in movies and I don't get it! I bathe every
>day, sometimes more often.).
>Anyway, I'm from europe and when I turned to this design.graphic I
>thought, being a graphic designer that I would be able to communicate
>with my equals, instead, I just read a bunch of stuff about PhotoShop
>and CorelDraw, except for you guys and a couple more there's
>absolutely NO discussion about design, just about graphic electronic
>TOOLS! Around here, we spend 5 to 6 years in an arts & design college
>figuring out aesthetic problems, learning history of the arts and
>natural drawing plus the methods of projecting, budget control and
>stuff to become designers, not people who pick up a mouse and scribble
>hideous material on a standard default unpersonal computer package.
>And I DO love computers and use them all the time, but they're nothing
>compared to the human eye and mind.
Yes, the design schools here concentrate on those things as well. I've
said it before and I say it again: owning a computer and $2000 worth of
graphics software doesn't make a person a good designer. I think this
group may attract more computer-related questions and comments, though,
just by virtue of the fact that it's an *internet* newsgroup. Those who
use a computer on a day-to-day basis are more likely to have an Internet
account, right? I have a feeling of wonderful designers out there who
don't know what a newsgroup is.
--
KNM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "If the B-2 is invisible, just announce you've built 100 of them and |
| don't build them." |
| --House Budget Committee Chairman, John Kasich,|
| on further production of the stealth bombers.|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug L.
Melinda Patchen wrote:
>
> >>Rick Martin wrote:
>
> >>>Hogwash! Just because I can't "draw," doesn't mean I don't know how to
> >>bring elements together to make terrific designs. I for one have every
> >>admiration for those blessed with the "raw" artistic talent.
>
> >able to draw, it is something that most people can learn to do. Succesfully
> >putting elements together is a part of it. Whether using a pencil or a
> >mouse.
>
>
> >[I sound just like an Art teacher - which for my sins is what I am]
>
> I'm shocked that an art teacher would make a remark like that! You of all
> people must know that some of the best artists cannot render to save their
> lives. Tsk tsk. Granted it helps to be able to render (which is really what
> we're talking about rather than "draw"), but it never stopped many of the
> greats. AND the ability to render has nothing to do with having the "eye" to
> create.
>
> Melinda
>
> >Matthew Carey
> >http://www.compulink.co.uk/~peckham/
YIKES!! Uh huh. Very true, Melinda. What kinda work do YOU do?
-DOUG
--
Artist- oil/canvas, mixed media, and screenplays
lne...@sos.net
"Doug L." <dug...@primenet.com> wrote:
I could'nt disagree more with you Melinda
Artistic talent is a matter of visual tranlation.
Nobody can teach you how to draw.
They can only show you technique.
and I would love to get names of some of the best artist with no
rendering ability and disagree with you once again my friend.
Sorry to pop your ballons but I have a hard time with people
bastardizing certain titles (graphic designer, artist).
Don't worry, I totally disagree with Mr. Limbaugh too.
L.Nelson-illustrator&visual translation guroo.
Steven Kastl
lne...@sos.net wrote:
>
> "Doug L." <dug...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >Melinda Patchen wrote:
> >>
> >> >>Rick Martin wrote:
> >>
> >> >>>Hogwash! Just because I can't "draw," doesn't mean I don't know how to
> >> >>bring elements together to make terrific designs. I for one have every
> >> >>admiration for those blessed with the "raw" artistic talent.
> >>
> >> >Perhaps you can draw, I don't think there is anything god given about being
> >> >able to draw, it is something that most people can learn to do. Succesfully
> >> >putting elements together is a part of it. Whether using a pencil or a
> >> >mouse.
> >>
> >> >What you do with this drawing is the next problem.
> >>
> >> >[I sound just like an Art teacher - which for my sins is what I am]
> >>
> >> I'm shocked that an art teacher would make a remark like that! You of all
> >> people must know that some of the best artists cannot render to save their
> >> lives. Tsk tsk. Granted it helps to be able to render (which is really what
> >> we're talking about rather than "draw"), but it never stopped many of the
> >> greats. AND the ability to render has nothing to do with having the "eye" to
> >> create.
> >>
> >> Melinda
As has been previously stated, there are those who have the natural talent to do so,
and then there are those who learn techniques to do so. Of the two, those with the
natural ability are far more capable than those who learn techniques.
I once saw a book on how to draw. It told of various techniques for drawing. As an
artist, I was offended that someone thinks that it can be brought down to some simple
techniques. Drawings and paintings express much more than just a picture. They represent
the artist's interpretation of the material. Techniques cannot grant that ability. They
can grant the ability to *appear* as if the artist is interpreting the material, but not
much else.
I may put myself in the firing line on this one, but I feel very strongly about this issue.
I have never taken an art class in my life, but I can draw very well. I learned how to do
so over the course of my entire life. With each drawing, I learned something new about
how to create what I saw. After 28 years, I have learned a lot. It incenses me each
time I see a college student or someone of that sort who has learned how to "draw" after
being taught to do so over the course of a year or so. There is no knowledge behind their
skills, it is just some commercial crap that comes out like vomit spewing from one who has
drank too much. All the posturing and self-effacement . . . nothing more than what they
were taught.
Regards,
Steven Kastl
"If you have to ask what Jazz is, you'll never know." Louis Armstrong
--
__________________________________
* Unlimited Potential Graphics *
| Computer | Graphic | Photo Image |
| Graphics | Design | Editing |
| Website Development Services |
*__________________________________*
jo...@iaonline.com or 309-682-0576
Steven Kastl
j
In article <4ni9k7$5...@barad-dur.nas.com>, lne...@sos.net wrote:
> I could'nt disagree more with you Melinda
> Artistic talent is a matter of visual tranlation.
> Nobody can teach you how to draw.
> They can only show you technique.
> and I would love to get names of some of the best artist with no
> rendering ability and disagree with you once again my friend.
> Sorry to pop your ballons but I have a hard time with people
> bastardizing certain titles (graphic designer, artist).
>
> Don't worry, I totally disagree with Mr. Limbaugh too.
>
> L.Nelson-illustrator&visual translation guroo.
Somehow, I think the only people dismissing fundamental skills are those
that don't have them. I am constantly struggling against my shortcomings
in this area. Imagine if your doctor thought "hey, I'm pretty good with
this here blade, what's so important about anatomy?"
People confuse aptitude with skill.
Ya gotta learn the medium from the ground up, no way around that. Even
DaVinci worked at it.
Anj
And by the way, what happened to irony? Aericans seem incapable of getting
it, they get Soooo offended and seem to miss it completely..oops, I'll
shut up now.
Shawn McBride
My, oh my...
What we're discussing here is merely the basics, is it worth this
much concern? "Learning to draw" is a series of rudimentary
exercises meant to spark your interest and sharpen dexterity. From
there, you should be deviating from those things in order to allow
your work to say what it has to say.
So the question is, what is your work saying, and does the depth of
your work go way beyond the ability to render a bowl of fruit? If
so, then let's make the discussion of medium fit into the context of
the meaning of your work.
wes...@salsgiver.com
http://www.salsgiver.com/wesayso
(go to fine art link)
d...@wwa.com
Steven Kastl (jo...@iaonline.com) wrote:
...
[bunches of unreadable crap deleted]
: Regards,
: Steven Kastl
1). Learn how to post, will you? Set your newsreader to 79-80
characters maximum. Also: learn how to edit follow-ups -
you don't have to repost every damned word that you're
responding to.
2). Lose the moronic .sig. If I were looking for a service
or product, the very last one I'd be interested in would
be one from the end of a Usenet posting.
Thank you, and have a nice day.
CitizenX
If you folks consider music and art form...then I invite you to my home
page. My band, DAMNAGE, has just released a new CD entitled "expressions
of anger". It is our artistic expression of the anger we feel.
http://www.mindspring.com/~matth1/damnage.html
Some people may feel this is off topic....I think not. Music is an
artform, just as much as sculpting, or drawing, rendering, writing, etc.
Art is anything creative that expresses something.
So if anger is what you feel you can relate to.....then come on over.
Matt (DAMNAGE)
--
http://www.mindspring.com/~matth1/damnage.html
--
Steven Kastl
d...@wwa.com wrote:
>
> Steven Kastl (jo...@iaonline.com) wrote:
> ...
> [bunches of unreadable crap deleted]
>
Maybe you should learn how to read.
> : Regards,
> : Steven Kastl
>
> 1). Learn how to post, will you? Set your newsreader to 79-80
> characters maximum. Also: learn how to edit follow-ups -
> you don't have to repost every damned word that you're
> responding to.
My newsreader displayed the message just fine. Maybe you should invest
in a little higher quality newsreader. Secondly, I was replying to an
idea, and I wanted everyone to be able to understand exactly what I was
responding to...rather than let them sit and wonder what I was ranting
about; the message I was replying to *was* edited as I saw fit.
> 2). Lose the moronic .sig. If I were looking for a service
> or product, the very last one I'd be interested in would
> be one from the end of a Usenet posting.
Who the hell are you to even think about requesting me to remove the
sig. file on my postings!!?? Oh, I must have you confused with someone
who has used the Usenet before. Or do you work in Congress?
> Thank you, and have a nice day.
I'm sorry, was there a message you were responding to? I think that this
is what is known as SPAM. SPAM is really an unwelcome entity in any Usenet
group (for those who need education about Usenet postings--like d...@wwa.com).
Yes, I know that this is SPAM as well, but one good SPAM deserves
another...especially when it is a personal one posted in a Usenet group.
BTW, I did have a nice day. Thanks.
Steve Kastl
--
__________________________________
* Unlimited Potential Graphics *
| Computer | Graphic | Photo Image |
| Graphics | Design | Editing |
* Website Development Services *
------------------------------------
jo...@iaonline.com or 309-682-0576
Isaac Reuben
Steven Kastl (jo...@iaonline.com) wrote:
: As has been previously stated, there are those who have the natural talent to do so,
: and then there are those who learn techniques to do so. Of the two, those with the
: natural ability are far more capable than those who learn techniques.
I disagree. "Rendering" (putting a pencil down to paper and producing an
image) is just a physical skill, like riding a bike or playing the piano.
It can be learned and taught. What you *do* with that skill once you have
it is what makes you an artist, not whether it was a skill that came easy or
that you had to study for years. There are plenty of people with a natural
talent to draw who are sucky artists.
I do agree though that being an artist has to do with looking at the world
in your own way, and creating something to explain that to others. What
people appreaciate about art is the humorous/painful/shocking/beutiful/etc.
vision of the artist. You can have that vision whether you know how to
render or not.
- Isaac =)
John Turner
AMEN!
John Turner
Turner Illustrating
201 Forest Drive
Graham, NC 27253
1-910-227-1035
jtu...@server1.netpath.net
John Turner
AMEN!
John Turner
Turner Illustrating
201 Forest Drive
Graham, NC 27253
1-910-227-1035
jtu...@server1.netpath.net
Melinda Patchen
>>> I'm shocked that an art teacher would make a remark like that! You of all
>>> people must know that some of the best artists cannot render to save their
>>> lives. Tsk tsk. Granted it helps to be able to render (which is really what
>>> we're talking about rather than "draw"), but it never stopped many of the
>>> greats. AND the ability to render has nothing to do with having the "eye" to
>>> create.
>>>
>>> Melinda
>>>
>I could'nt disagree more with you Melinda
>Artistic talent is a matter of visual tranlation.
>Nobody can teach you how to draw.
>They can only show you technique.
>and I would love to get names of some of the best artist with no
>rendering ability and disagree with you once again my friend.
>Sorry to pop your ballons but I have a hard time with people
>bastardizing certain titles (graphic designer, artist).
>Don't worry, I totally disagree with Mr. Limbaugh too.
>L.Nelson-illustrator&visual translation guroo.
Well, L.Nelson, you state that you disagree with me, but you restate what I've
said as your opinion.
You do, however disagree with me about great artists sometimes having no
ability to render and the first name that comes to my mind is Picasso.
You're not popping any of my balloons... but you're sure stretching things by
saying I'm "bastardizing certain titles".
Melinda Patchen, Graphic Artist
and Fine Artist, San Francisco Art Institute, '73
Helen Bakk
In article <melinda.9...@wantabe.com>, mel...@wantabe.com says...
>You do, however disagree with me about great artists sometimes having no
>ability to render and the first name that comes to my mind is Picasso.
PICASSO couldn't render? Surely you gest, or your meaning isn't clear.
Or you are still too much of a student to know what you are talking about.
I'm not sure which is true. But in any event, you are un-informed if you
think Picasso couldn't render. He knew how to render when he was BORN.
He spent all his life looking for the childhood that he was deprived of --
how to render like children in their first efforts.
--
******************************************
From Her Holiness, Harpy of Hoopla.
Been there, done that, matters not.
~ Helen Bakk ~ I am NOT E-mailable.
*******************************************
Pat
I'm gonna have to side with Helen, too. If my memory serves me
correctly, Picasso was a child prodigy. At fifteen years of age he was
rendering these sappy, meloncholy, metaphorical paintings that were not
that much different from the Pre-Raphaelites. The problem is, Picasso's
reputation hinged on his later work and, therefore, the earlier pieces
didn't get much mileage in the History circles.
Craig Faichney
Helen's right on in this little debate. I can't think of an artist that will
have that moniker for the rest of their life and beyond that couldn't
render. You have to know the rules and forms before you can break
free of them. There are many, many so-called artists these days that
couldn't render if their lives depended on it but I can guarantee you
that they'll be quickly forgotten when the fad dies down on their
particular area of work.
Isaac Reuben
Craig Faichney (cra...@inforamp.net) wrote:
: free of them. There are many, many so-called artists these days that
: couldn't render if their lives depended on it but I can guarantee you
: that they'll be quickly forgotten when the fad dies down on their
: particular area of work.
Well, that depends on how you define "artist". A musician or graphic
designer has no *need* to render. A painter or illustrator obviously would
be much more likely to have that need. I've seen many brilliant mixed
media/collage pieces that rendering certainly would have been needed for,
not to mention sculpture, glass-work, and all the other artist mediums.
Rendering does not make an artist, and an artist does not absolutely NEED to
know how to render. An artist needs vision, inspiration, emotion, and some
way to express it.
- Isaac =)
P.S. I say this as someone who is an OK renderer, and who is working quite
hard to become better. This is because I think rendering is an incredibly
important skill and tool, but I still don't think it's *required* to be an
artist.