JFK Assassination Forum Archives -- Misc. Topics Of Interest (Part 207)

[David Von Pein]

ARCHIVED JFK ASSASSINATION FORUM POSTS OF INTEREST (PART 207):

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LOTS OF PICTURES:
http://Kennedy-Photos.blogspot.com/2012/06/thumbnails.html


MORE S.B.T. TALK:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,8420.msg244736.html#msg244736
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,8420.msg244739.html#msg244739
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,8420.msg244744.html#msg244744


GARY MACK:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20200&page=3#entry274335
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20200&page=3#entry274347
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20200&page=4#entry274353


A "CINCHED" CASE:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/46407e19e701290a
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/5ca434db01416af4
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/89e6b93e8e16f6ce


MAUSER VS. CARCANO:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/0bafb01b2557d183
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a032b0f538b9784b
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/069c1544fe872a71


BILLY LOVELADY:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/862de7ca24bab73a
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0e4a00c224d7755f
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/8cc19a04cbc057f0
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2ce2d69211c8c942
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/84936339aacecf51
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/972e30a1bf54a279


LEE OSWALD VS. DANNY ARCE:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/b22214da567430d1



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[David Von Pein]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/111b7ae94996ce3a/718bdcf6a58ad6c6?#718bdcf6a58ad6c6


JOHN FIORENTINO SAID:

So, I just have a few questions.....Why didn't Tippit respond to
dispatch at approx. 1:02?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I haven't the foggiest. But even CTers don't think Tippit was already
dead by 1:02. Do you think he was dead by 1:02?

JOHN F. SAID:

Why does the hospital, and the officers, have Tippit DOA at 1:15?

DVP SAID:

No idea. But it's provably wrong. Just look at at the DPD radio tapes
(and Dale Myers' book). The ambulance didn't even arrive at the Tippit
murder scene until 1:18:59 PM ["With Malice", page 104].

So, obviously, one of those times is wrong. And the times recorded by
the DPD radio logs are not likely to be wrong at all.

JOHN F. SAID:

And why did someone fidoodle with CD 5?


DVP SAID:

To make the time more accurate. What else?

Why have a 1:15 time in the record when we all know that 1:25 is much
more likely to be correct? You don't object to making things more
accurate, do you John?

The same thing happened with Marrion Baker's famous "drinking a Coke"
scratch-out in Commission Exhibit No. 3076. The cross-out made that
document more accurate. That's the only reason it was crossed out (by
Baker himself).

Naturally, though, all conspiracy theorists jump right off the "It
Must Have Been A Conspiracy" cliff whenever they see something like
that. Instead of accepting an ordinary explanation (like the
explanation of Baker making the document more accurate), the CTers
insist that such changes were done as part of a "plot". Which is
stupid to begin with, because if it was something the plotters wished
to hide from all prying eyes, they would have merely re-written CE3076
on a fresh piece of paper and then left out the "Coke" reference
entirely.

The fact that the Coke scratch-out and the "1:15" notation are still
visible in these documents is virtual proof, right there, that these
things weren't changed to promote some FALSE record of these
occurrences. The scratch-outs show that the people performing them had
NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO HIDE. And if they were conspirators, they would
certainly have a desire to HIDE these things--not leave them in the
documents for all to see and read.

[aeffects]

On Jun 3, 7:12 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

<*flush* more Von Pein nonsense>

[aeffects]

ever notice Von Pein-ski, the troll uses the term "conspiracy" more
than any ten self proclaimed Conspiracy researcher-theorists whom
***concluded***, based on case evidence, as known today, K-N-O-W a
conspiracy murdered JFK on the good streets of Dallas Texas in 1963.

Von Pein is absolutely obsessed with conspiracy, not a healthy sign
for lone nut morons of his ilk! So carry on Dudley!

Oh and Dale who? That the emmy guy who ghost wrote 40% of Reclaiming
History? Bugliosi should be ashamed, maybe he IS damn ashamed. Ashamed
he had such a no-nothing wannabe so close to his publishing
disaster...

[David Von Pein]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/111b7ae94996ce3a/f7dd9f1377b3f6c3?#f7dd9f1377b3f6c3


JOHN FIORENTINO SAID:

The Warren Commission made a definitive statement in its report about
LHO arriving slightly after 1:15pm. But if that's true, then again, it
casts great doubt about him killing Tippit.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're overstating the Warren Commission's timeline. The WC's times
(as seen in CE1119-A) are "approximate" times--not "definitive" as you
claim. And on pages 156-157 of the Warren Report, we find these words:
"At about 1:16 p.m.". The WC wasn't placing the 1:16 time in concrete
and you know it. All times are only approximations.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0091a.htm

And we know for a fact that anyone saying Tippit was "DOA" at
Methodist at 1:15 was simply wrong. Because, as mentioned previously,
the ambulance didn't even arrive at 10th Street to pick up Tippit
until about 1:19 PM.

Do you really think that BOTH the Dallas Police radio logs AND the
Hughes ambulance records are wrong? Dudley Hughes filled out the
ambulance call slip before the ambulance left for 10th Street, and the
slip was stamped "1:18 PM". ["With Malice"; page 101.]

Yes, yes, I know, you don't rely on a single thing uttered by Dale K.
Myers (which, of course, is very very silly, since Myers has spent
more time studying the Tippit murder than anyone else in the world;
but, for some reason, Mr. Fiorentino doesn't like Mr. Myers' work, so
anything in Myers' book must be dismissed by John F., even though Dale
has come to the exact same bottom-line conclusion that John Fiorentino
has come to--Oswald murdered Tippit). Go figure. ~shrug~

And the crap about the bullets not being tied conclusively to Oswald's
revolver is not nearly enough to raise "reasonable doubt". (And as you
know, of course, Joseph Nicol--the NON-Government firearms expert--did
say that one of the four bullets could be linked conclusively to
Oswald's gun.)

Another often overlooked aspect of the bullets that killed Tippit is
this -- Those bullets showed characteristics of being fired through a
gun that had been re-barreled, meaning the bullets wobbled going down
the barrel. And--volia!--Oswald's revolver did have such a barrel,
causing the bullets to wobble.

But the key physical evidence are the bullet shells, two of which did
not go through J.M. Poe's hands at all and, as such, they have a clear
chain of custody (even for most conspiracy kooks).

The only possible way for Lee Harvey Oswald to be innocent of shooting
J.D. Tippit is if the following idiotic situation occurred (which
nobody could possibly even begin to believe happened on November 22,
1963):

Somebody other than Lee Oswald shoots Tippit with Oswald's revolver.
This "non-Oswald" shooter (who looks just exactly like Lee Harvey
Oswald, but really isn't him) then flees the scene of the Tippit
crime, dumping four shells on the ground as he runs away. This non-
Oswald shooter then meets up with the real Lee Oswald and hands off
the Tippit murder weapon to LHO. Oswald then proceeds to the Texas
Theater where he is arrested while in possession of the gun that
somebody else used to kill Officer Tippit just 35 minutes earlier.


JOHN FIORENTINO SAID:

A good defense lawyer would have destroyed the prosecution's case.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're silly.

It would seem as though the tactics of Anthony Marsh have now rubbed
off on John Fiorentino. (You know, the "always argue with someone just
for the sake of arguing, even though you agree with them" tactic.)

The only way a jury would have acquitted Oswald in the Tippit murder
is if the entire jury was comprised of the "OJ Twelve" (the same
dimwitted jury which let Simpson go free).

The evidence against Oswald in the Tippit murder is so strong and
foolproof, no sensible person would have any trouble at all convicting
him.

1.) The many "It Was Oswald With A Gun" witnesses.

2.) The bullet shells.

3.) Joseph Nicol's testimony too (don't totally dismiss this).

4.) Oswald's incredibly incriminating statements made to Officer C.T.
Walker in the police car.

5.) And the clincher--Oswald still had the Tippit murder weapon ON HIM
just half-an-hour after Tippit was killed.

Even with some anomalies and discrepancies in the timelines and the
"Remington" vs. "Winchester" bullet shells, the totality of evidence
hangs Oswald for Tippit's murder and always has. And anyone saying
otherwise just flat-out does not want to face the reality that exists
within that "totality" of evidence.

[David Von Pein]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/111b7ae94996ce3a/3586559311b6fb10?#3586559311b6fb10


JOHN FIORENTINO SAID:

I'm trying to demonstrate how an honest CT can use the Warren Report
itself (in some instances) to make an exculpatory case for Oswald.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Only if that "honest CT" decides to ignore the sum total of the
evidence--which is a sum total that irrevocably proves Oswald's guilt
in the Tippit murder.

And I'd have to doubt the overall integrity and "honest" status of a
CTer who decides to isolate only a small portion of the evidence in
the Tippit case, all the while dismissing the overall totality of the
evidence -- which is the exact type of "isolating" that "burgundy"
just did in his last post above by pointing out (as those "honest"
CTers always do) that the two Poe shells don't have J.M. Poe's
initials on them.

Of course, even there, burgundy is not telling the whole story,
because Officer Poe is on record, plain as day, telling the Warren
Commission that he might not have marked any shells at all:

Mr. BALL -- "Did you put any markings on the hulls?"
Mr. POE -- "I couldn't swear to it; no, sir."

An "honest CT"? I wonder if such an animal even exists.

[David Von Pein]

JOHN FIORENTINO SAID:

The cartridges only prove they were fired in the revolver. Can't
demonstrate when, etc.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The witnesses tell us WHEN those cartridges/bullets were fired from
that gun -- seconds after Tippit was shot with the ONE AND ONLY GUN
that was seen by those witnesses.

Tell me John F., how would a defense lawyer squirm and weasel his way
out of the situation that positively exists in the Tippit case? This
situation---

Gunman shoots Tippit.
Gunman is seen emptying shells from the GUN THAT SHOT TIPPIT.
Multiple eyewitnesses I.D. Oswald as that gunman.
Oswald is captured 35 minutes later with the GUN THAT SHOT TIPPIT.

How does a Johnnie Cochran-eque defense attorney attempt to convince
the jury that his client didn't shoot Tippit with the above
circumstances staring him (and the jury) in the face?

Does the Cochran-like lawyer tell the jury that ALL FOUR shells were
planted? (Even though the prosecuting attorney is going to undoubtedly
tell the jury--with great force and conviction--that two of those four
bullet shells have a chain of custody that is solid as a rock.)

And in the above "planted shells" scenario, the jury is going to have
to buy into the notion that the Dallas Police had a desire to frame an
innocent man (Oswald) for the murder of their fellow officer, all the
while those cops don't give a rat's ass about the fact that they've
allowed Tippit's real killer to go free. Would ANY jury buy that
preposterous notion (other than perhaps the "O.J. 12")? It's idiotic.

Or:

Does the Cochran-like barrister plead with the jury to totally dismiss
the positive identification of ALL of the witnesses who said they saw
OSWALD (not someone else) shoot Tippit or leave the scene, gun in
hand, immediately after the shooting?

That last scenario would mean, therefore, asking the jury to believe
that Scoggins, B. Davis, V. Davis, Callaway, Guinyard, and others were
all wrong--or were liars--when they each said the gunman was Lee H.
Oswald. Which would be practically impossible for any jury to believe
in this particular case, since those bullet shells are confirming, to
a large degree, that the man those witnesses saw definitely WAS
Oswald, since Oswald decided to hang onto the gun after shooting J.D.
Tippit.

So your technicality regarding the shells ("The cartridges only prove
they were fired in the revolver. Can't demonstrate when") does not
apply in this case. Because the "WHEN" *can* be proved in this case.
Davis, Davis, and Scoggins are the ones who can prove it. And Markham
too.

[David Von Pein]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/3c0531fbfc70bc48


JOHN FIORENTINO SAID:

There have been some discussions in other threads here recently
touching on the evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit. I have been
playing devil's advocate and in a sense acting as a defense
attorney. My purpose is simply to initiate some critical thinking, to
raise some legitimate questions and generally throw out some thought
provoking ideas. .... I believe a clever defense attorney may have
prevailed in the case.


DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:

But why do you want to play the part of "clever defense attorney" for
Oswald--particularly in the Tippit murder case, which is a murder that
all sensible people know was committed by Lee Harvey Oswald?

And you, yourself, think Oswald killed both Kennedy and Tippit. So
what's the point of pretending that the overall weight of the evidence
indicates anything OTHER than Oswald's guilt? Even YOU believe that
that "overall weight" hangs Oswald. And as I mentioned in another
thread, it's obviously the combination of the witness testimony and
those four bullet shells littering Tenth Street in Oak Cliff that are
the things that led you to your "Oswald's Guilty" belief. If not those
things, then what? Tea leaves?

Do you have a desire to be compared to "clever" defense attorneys like
Johnnie Cochran and Barry Scheck, who would do anything and isolate
every piece of evidence separately in order to convince a jury of
something that's obviously not true?

If you were one of the Internet's many silly "Anybody But Oswald"
conspiracy theorists, then I could easily understand why you, John,
would want to actively engage in such "clever" defense lawyer antics.
But you're not. You think, as do I, that Oswald killed Tippit (and
Kennedy).

And in the long run, WHO CARES whether a slick lawyer could have
gotten Oswald off the hook in front of a jury? The fact remains that
that same basic "totality" of evidence (which has obviously also
convinced John E. Fiorentino of Oswald's guilt) will still always be
there for reasonable people to examine as a SUM TOTAL, and not by
isolating just the Poe shells or Acquilla Clemmons' statements, etc.

The parlor games that some CTers like to play in their efforts to cast
doubt on Oswald's guilt are games that, IMO, are only played by
desperate conspiracy believers, who (like Cochran in the O.J. Simpson
case) would do and say almost anything (no matter how silly,
improbable, or impossible) in their efforts to exonerate a guilty
murderer.

People can participate in those "defense lawyer" parlor games if they
so desire. But I, for one, prefer the game called "Sum Total Of
Evidence", which is a game that has only one outcome: OSWALD DID IT.

David Von Pein
June 7, 2013

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com