THE KOOK NAMED BEN HOLMES LIED WHEN HE SAID THIS:
>>> "That is, of course, an outright lie on DVP's part. I NOWHERE STATED THAT THE WCR NEEDED TO LIE IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT OSWALD WENT TO IRVING ON THURSDAY..." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:
And I never said you did say that.
Note the portion of my quote that Kook Holmes deliberately omitted ---
"to get his rifle".
And Holmes is definitely saying that the WC needed to "lie" in order
for Oswald to GET HIS RIFLE in Irving on a Thursday.
Here's Benji's exact quote in that regard:
"The WC clearly didn't want to provide proof that a Thursday
visit to Irving was not unique - for their theory needed a unique
visit on a Thursday to pick up a rifle. They simply lied in order to
do so." -- B. Holmes
But Mr. Piecemeal Holmes apparently thought I wouldn't notice that he
left out the most important words in that quote that he says I lied
about -- "to get his rifle". And that IS the most crucial aspect to
Oswald's Thursday-night visit to Irving on Nov. 21, of course --
whether or not he went there to get his rifle.
And there is a lot of evidence that proves Oswald DID pick up his
rifle and take it to work with him on Nov. 22....such as Oswald's lies
about the curtain rods; the fact that both Frazier and Randle saw LHO
with a large package on 11/22; and the fact that LHO's rifle turned up
missing from its known storage location in Ruth Paine's garage on
11/22.
Ben, though, wants to argue that the above things have no bearing at
all on THIS particular subject of whether Oswald ever went to Irving
on previous Thursdays. But I say those things DO have a bearing on
what Holmes says are "lies" told by the WC and Vince Bugliosi. [See
footnote regarding Bugliosi below, proving that Vince certainly did
not ignore this issue at all in his 2007 book.]
Because Holmes wants to believe that the WC needed to lie about the
"Thursday" thing. But I say that such a notion is crazy -- and that's
because there was NO NEED TO LIE about any "Thursday" pattern when it
comes to the most important question the WC needed to answer in a
satisfactory way -- Did Lee Oswald go to Irving on Thursday, 11/21 to
get his rifle?
And that question can easily be answered "Yes", and without ever
needing to "lie" about a damn thing.
The WC obviously arrived at the conclusion that Oswald was not in
Irving on Thursday, Oct. 31, and they said so in the WCR. They felt
that Mrs. Tarrants at the grocery store was incorrect (and by only a
single day) when she said LHO cashed his check on a Thursday. But the
more reliable evidence (in this instance the testimony of Marina
Oswald and Ruth Paine) indicates that Tarrants was very likely
mistaken as to the exact date.
---------
WESLEY LIEBELER -- "After Rachel was born and after Lee had been there
on Monday [10/21/63] to see you, did he come back to Irving at any
time during the week except the night before the assassination?"
MARINA OSWALD -- "No. He came to Irving only the weekends--only on
weekends."
---------
Here's another interesting piece of testimony that comes from the lips
of Marina Oswald (taken from Marina's testimony at the 1969 Clay Shaw
trial): *
QUESTION -- "Did you see Lee at any time the night of the 21st [of
November 1963] go into the Paine garage?"
MARINA OSWALD -- "Yes, he went a few times."
QUESTION -- "You saw him actually go into the garage?"
MARINA OSWALD -- "Yes."
---------
Footnote:
In his book "Reclaiming History", author Vincent Bugliosi doesn't
"ignore" the possibility of Lee Oswald going to Irving on a Thursday
prior to 11/21/63. In fact, Vince deals with the "Tarrants" matter in
a decent-sized endnote in his book. So, once again, Ben Holmes is dead
wrong when he said this:
"Bugliosi...simply lied. He *KNEW* that there was evidence of
visits on other days of the week, and simply ignored them." -- B.
Holmes
Below is the text from Bugliosi's endnote that deals with this
"Thursday night" topic. I guess this constitutes "ignoring" the issue
completely, per a kook named Holmes. And, btw, I found this relevant
passage in Bugliosi's book only AFTER I had written my initial post in
this thread, which is a post that includes these remarks (which
directly mirror some of Mr. Bugliosi's comments on the matter):
"It was on April 13, 1964, when Mrs. Tarrants was asked to
recall the incident--more than five months after Oswald cashed the
check. To think that she would have been able to nail down the date
with absolute certainty seems to be asking a little much of the
woman's memory. And, AFAIK, in this instance there is no definitive
way of knowing the exact date the check was cashed." -- DVP;
12/31/2011
[BUGLIOSI QUOTE ON:]
"Warren Commission critic Sylvia Meagher says, “Oswald’s visit
to Irving on Thursday night, November 21, may not have been
unprecedented” (Meagher, Accessories after the Fact, p.37), but there
is no credible evidence to support this.
"Troy Erwin, the manager of the Atlantic & Pacific supermarket
in Irving, told the FBI that check G493187, a Texas Unemployment
Commission check for $33.00 payable to Lee Harvey Oswald, was cashed
at his store on either Thursday, October 31, 1963, or Friday, November
1, 1963.
"On April 13, 1964, the cashier at the store, Mrs. Georgia
Tarrants, told the FBI that as best she recalls, Oswald cashed the
check on Thursday night (CE 1165, 22 H 224–225). But it seems
inconceivable that Mrs. Tarrants, almost five months after the
assassination, would be able to look back and recall whether Oswald
cashed the check on Thursday as opposed to Friday night, especially
since at that time she would have no reason to make note of what night
Oswald was at the store.
"But Marina Oswald, Ruth Paine, and Wesley Frazier would have
every reason to remember that Oswald had never, before November 21,
come to Irving on a Thursday night. Moreover, Oswald had been
instructed NOT to come on any Thursday night, and Friday night made
more sense since he could stay for the weekend." -- Vincent Bugliosi;
Page 529 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"
[BUGLIOSI QUOTE OFF.]
Regarding this quote of Mr. Bugliosi's --- "Oswald had been instructed
NOT to come on any Thursday night" ....
I have no idea what the source is for the above conclusion reached by
Bugliosi. It's not sourced in the endnote on Page 529 of Vincent's
book, and I have looked through the complete testimony of Ruth Paine,
Michael Paine, and Marina Oswald, and I found nothing that would
indicate that any of those people had told Lee Oswald never to come to
the Paine home on a Thursday. So I haven't the foggiest notion from
whom Vince got that idea. But I also have little doubt that Vince DID
get that idea from somebody. I just don't know the source. But I
certainly don't think Mr. Bugliosi just made it up out of thin air.
In any event, as can be seen in the above-quoted section of
"Reclaiming History", Vincent Bugliosi did not "ignore" the
possibility of Lee Oswald taking a trip to Irving on Thursday, October
31, 1963.
Additional Footnote For Ben Holmes:
Please go back to ignoring me, retard. I like it much better that way.
Then I won't need to straighten out your lies and misrepresentations
when it comes to examining the TOTALITY of the evidence in the JFK
case.
Because, as we all know, when it comes to logically and reasonably
evaluating and assessing the TOTALITY or SUM TOTAL of the evidence in
the JFK assassination, conspiracy mongers like Benjamin Holmes always
end up looking like the desperate chaff-loving clowns they are. And
this "Thursday night" thread is no exception. It's nothing but another
one of the hundreds of examples of how a conspiracy kook will slice
off a piece of totally unimportant chaff connected with the Kennedy
assassination and blow it up out of all reasonable proportion.
Because even if Oswald had gone to Irving on Thursday, Oct. 31, that
fact would not eliminate the other evidence (and LHO's own lies) that
tells all reasonable people that Oswald did, in fact, pick up his
rifle on Thursday, Nov. 21st. And the Warren Commission knew that,
too. Therefore, as mentioned previously, there would have been
absolutely no logical reason for the Commission to want to
deliberately lie about any possible Oswald visits to Irving on
previous occasions.
------------
* = Addendum About Marina Oswald Saying That LHO Was In The Paine
Garage On 11/21/63:
Before the CTers jump on my case for not calling attention to Marina
Oswald's inconsistent testimony re Lee being in the garage, let me
quote from Marina's Warren Commission testimony, where she totally
contradicts her later 1969 Shaw Trial testimony:
MARINA OSWALD (1964) -- "Ruth [Paine] told me that in the evening she
had worked in the garage and she knows that she had put out the light
but that the light was on later--that the light was on in the morning.
And she guessed that Lee was in the garage. But I didn't see it."
------------------
And there's also this HSCA testimony from Marina in 1978, which
totally conflicts with her earlier 1969 remarks:
QUESTION -- "On the night of the 21st, did you see Lee go into the
garage?"
MARINA OSWALD-PORTER -- "No."