LEE HARVEY OSWALD, A POSSIBLE "CUBAN CONNECTION", AND RIFLE #C2766
David Von Pein
"BROTHERS IN ARMS: THE KENNEDYS, THE CASTROS, AND THE POLITICS OF
MURDER"
By:
Gus Russo and Stephen Molton
--------------------
Hardcover.
560 pages.
Publisher: Bloomsbury USA.
Release Date: October 28, 2008.
================================================
www.jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/10/brothers-in-arms-kennedys-castros-and.html
Hi Dale [Myers],
As always, I enjoyed your latest (October 27) item in your "News" area
on your website. Some very interesting Cuban stuff there.
However, along those Cuban lines, I was curious about how Mr. Russo
and his co-author Mr. Molton handle three aspects of the JFK murder
(and aftermath) in particular (within the framework of some type of
"Cuban Plot"):
1.) How do the "Brothers In Arms" authors explain the fact that Ruth
Paine and Linnie Mae Randle were so heavily influential in getting Lee
Havey Oswald his job at the TSBD just one month before the
assassination?
In other words, how in the world can any outside "Cuban involvement"
possibly play a part in this very important sub-topic surrounding
Oswald's employment in the building from where Kennedy was murdered
and the very innocuous and innocent manner in which LHO obtained that
job?
2.) Why on Earth would Oswald have used his own rifle to kill the
President if he was "involved" with other "higher up" people (Cuban or
otherwise)?
Do Russo and Molton think Oswald was duped? Or was Lee Harvey just
plain stupid (i.e., perfectly willing to shoot the President with his
own gun and from his own workplace, even though he certainly would [or
should!] have been given some other weapon to do the job that could
never be traced via a paper trail back to him)?
This #2 item has always been a major snafu and a big question mark,
IMO, whenever somebody comes forth with a theory saying, in effect,
"Oswald killed JFK on behalf of a larger group of people, but he just
went ahead and used his own cheap rifle anyway".*
3.) Why was LHO hung out to dry following the assassination if he was
really involved with other people in a plan to murder Kennedy? Where
the heck was his getaway driver via such a pre-arranged assassination
scheme?
This is another thing that makes absolutely no sense to me if Lee
Oswald was working in cahoots with other co-plotters.
Yes, perhaps the rug was pulled out from under Oswald's feet at the
last minute. I guess that's always a possibility. Maybe the high-up
Cuban forces that were "in" on the plot with Oswald decided to make
him their solo "patsy", as it were.
But even if that were true, there's still that pesky #2 question above
about his rifle. How could ANYONE possibly talk Oswald (or any
shooter) into using his own rifle to kill the President within the
context of the kind of pre-arranged-well-in-advance multi-person plot
that Mr. Russo and Mr. Molton are obviously advocating in their 2008
publication?*
* = Yes, I know that Oswald did, indeed, use his own gun to kill the
President. That's as obvious as can be. But it only makes sense, IMO,
from the standpoint of Oswald doing it ALONE, sans any outside
influence...and, most importantly, sans any outside OPPORTUNITY that
would have been afforded him (via his co-plotters in crime) to obtain
a better assassination weapon that wouldn't have a popcorn trail a
mile long leading straight back to him.
In other words -- Oswald (the lone killer, who probably didn't plan to
shoot the President more than two or three days ahead of time--if that
long) pretty much had no choice -- he used the only gun that was
available to him...his own Carcano rifle.
But in a pre-arranged scenario, there is simply no way that Oswald
would be willing to use his own rifle, IMO, given the obvious choices
that would undoubtedly have been afforded him via such a multi-person
plan. I don't think Oswald was THAT stupid. YMMV, however.
Were these Cubans so incredibly cheap that they couldn't afford a
better rifle for their killer to use on the President of the United
States?
Plus: In such a scenario, why would anyone involved in a plot with
Oswald even WANT him to use such a cheap and old weapon for such a big
"hit" like this one?
Maybe I'm just naive as all get out, but that just makes no sense to
me whatsoever.
"The fact that Rifle C2766 was used at all on 11/22/63 (and it
most certainly was used; CE567/569 prove this beyond all doubt)
indicates that the assassination was practically a last-minute thought
in Oswald's mind. (Again, "IMO".)" -- DVP; May 29, 2008
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/81c03d6de0370e9f
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/thread/4ad0ad75648f8f5e
Thanks for your insight, Dale....as always.
Regards,
David Von Pein
David Von Pein
RELATED POST............
=============================================
TIM GRATZ SAID:
>>> "In my opinion the [Sylvia] Odio incident has nothing to do with the plot to kill JFK. [Gaeton] Fonzi and others who say it is proof of the plot are, to put it simply, wrong." <<<
WILLIAM KELLY THEN SAID:
>>> "Simply wrong that three men show up at Odio's door in Dallas, two latins seeking support for an anti-Castro Cuban group and one who appears to be Oswald on a day after leaving New Orleans for Mexico, who is said to be an ex-Marine who [will?] shoot the President? The same ex-Marine accused of killing the President two months later? .... And those who see a connection are simply wrong? While that's not my strongest proof of the plot, I think Fonzi and Russell and others who have followed this line of inquiry are onto something." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN NOW SAYS:
But if there WAS a "connection" (with respect to the assassination of
JFK) between Lee Harvey Oswald and the two Cubans who visited Sylvia
Odio on September 25, 1963, then the next logical question that should
be asked is:
Where the hell were these two Cubans WHEN OSWALD NEEDED THEM MOST (on
November 21 and 22)?!
Via the theory that has Oswald "conspiring" with Cubans "Angelo" and
"Leopoldo" in late September of '63 in a plot to kill the President,
we would surely have to assume that one or both of those Cubans who
were evidently "involved" in some way in this assassination plot would
have been AIDING and HELPING their triggerman (Oswald) during the
critical days leading up to the November 22nd murder attempt....not to
mention helping their gunman named Oswald escape the scene of the
crime on the day of the assassination itself.
Instead, what do we find? -- Oswald is totally alone, and left to fend
for himself after firing the shots that killed the President in Dealey
Plaza. He has to walk here and there....he resorts to using public
transportation (a city bus) for a short time just minutes after the
murder....and he then switches to a taxicab when the bus fails to move
in the traffic jam on Elm Street caused by the assassination that
Oswald has just committed.
Then, after getting out of William Whaley's cab, Oswald walks some
more (to his rented room)....and then he is forced to walk still more
mileage after quickly picking up his revolver at his roominghouse
(another risky move, which would have been completely unnecessary if
Oswald had had an accomplice--ANY accomplice!--to help him escape and
to supply him with any guns he might require after the dirty deed was
accomplished in Dealey Plaza).
Plus -- The day before the assassination (Thursday, November 21st),
Oswald is forced to make up a lie to tell his co-worker--Buell Wesley
Frazier--who would be needed to transport LHO to Irving, Texas, to
retrieve Oswald's one and only rifle.
But if Oswald had been working in concert with "Angelo" or
"Leopoldo" (or ANYBODY else who had a vehicle at their disposal), it's
highly doubtful that Oswald would have even needed to return to Irving
for his unusual Thursday-night visit in order to get his rifle out of
Ruth Paine's garage -- and that's because (logically) if Oswald was
working with other people (dating all the way back to September, no
less!) in a plot to murder John Kennedy, he almost certainly WOULD NOT
HAVE NEEDED TO USE HIS OWN TRACEABLE RIFLE TO KILL THE PRESIDENT.
Why didn't this group of plotters buy another (non-traceable) rifle
with which to kill the President, instead of making Oswald use his own
gun that has a paper trail leading straight back to him? They
certainly had plenty of time to get Oswald another rifle....and Lee
would have had ample time to practice with it as well (if the plot was
hatched as early as September '63).
These THREE guys (or however many people the conspiracy theorists want
to think were possibly "in" on the plot to kill JFK) couldn't even
pool their financial resources over the course of a two-month time
period and scrape together enough cash to purchase another gun, so
that Oswald would be able to avoid using his own weapon in a
Presidential assassination attempt, and also avoid the trip to Irving
on Thursday, November 21st to get his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle out of
Mrs. Paine's garage?
And, per some CTers evidently, Oswald supposedly just went right along
with this plan, eh? He didn't INSIST that his co-plotters help him out
by purchasing (or stealing) some other gun to be used in this
Presidential murder?
Oswald was just satisfied to use his own gun, even though (per this
make-believe theory I'm discussing here) he has multiple other
associates and accomplices he could rely on to help him out in this
"Get Me Another Gun" regard?
Crazy.
Did Lee Oswald's co-plotters decide to stop aiding him at some point,
leaving Oswald to take the full blame, by himself, after the
assassination?
Oswald was just being used as the "patsy" or the "fall guy", right?
That's what many conspiracy theorists seem to believe.
Well, if so, he must have been one of the most cooperative patsies the
world has ever known.
If Lee Harvey Oswald had been planning to kill President Kennedy as
far back as late September of 1963....and if he was doing this
"planning" WITH OTHER PEOPLE (the two Cubans who visited Odio, or
anyone else a CTer cares to name...or not name)....does anyone believe
for a single minute that things would have unfolded the way things did
unfold both before and after 12:30 PM on November 22nd....
....With Oswald using his own gun to murder JFK and then with LHO
being forced to rely on his own devices (his own two feet and a bus
and cab) to take him from Point A to Point B immediately after
performing an assassination that he had actually planned WITH TWO
OTHER MEN months earlier?
That's just....nuts.
Every single thing Lee Harvey Oswald did on November 21st and November
22nd, 1963, indicates that he was WORKING ALONE, sans any accomplices
or co-conspirators at all.
In summary --
Oswald's very own actions on those two critical days (November 21-22)
speak much, much louder than any conspiracy theorist when confronted
with the all-important question of: WAS LEE HARVEY OSWALD PERFORMING A
SOLO MURDER ACT IN DEALEY PLAZA?
Just follow all of Oswald's movements and actions on both of those
days, and you'll get the most-reasonable answer to that question.
David Von Pein
May 28, 2008
aeffects
kiss ass, moron that NOT gonna get you a gig on the Bugliosi-HBO gig
(they know you work for free, asshole. Your a blight of the writing
industry)..... ya need a life Von Pain er, Lowry, er Jer, er Keating,
er cdddraftsman... LMFAO!
David Von Pein
>>> "David: By the nature of your known position that Oswald acted alone, I'm amazed at your questions." <<<
Yeah, I know. Common sense often stumps a lot of you CTers. Happens
continually.
>>> "It seems you don't know your own Oswald..." <<<
Very few really did "know" Lee Oswald.
As Ruth Paine put it in 1986:
"I think Marina [Oswald] is the only one who really knew him
well."
I do know this, though -- LHO took his own rifle to work with him on
11/22/63, with the thought in his mind of shooting the President with
it.
And would he have REALLY needed to do that (i.e., use his OWN GUN) if
he really and truly had co-plotters behind him (whether they be
connected to some kind of "Cuban" plot, or otherwise)?
As I said in previous Internet exchanges, the very fact that Rifle
#C2766 was used to kill JFK at all is extremely strong evidence that
Lee Harvey Oswald was performing a solo act in Dallas, sans ANY "help"
or behind-the-scenes assistance of ANY kind.
To believe otherwise is to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was one
REALLY stupid person. (IMO.)
But, I haven't yet seen Gus Russo's new book. I've ordered a copy
though. Maybe he can change my mind about that last paragraph I just
wrote. Who knows...maybe miracles really can occur in a person's
lifetime.
>>> "...nor do you understand the Marxist Revolution as it relates to Cuba and your Oswald." <<<
Please, let's lose the "your Oswald" stuff. You make me feel like his
daddy. ;)
>>> "Basically your position supports the presented Oswald Marxist Revolutionary Wanabe, (correct me if I'm wrong) yet ignores the known Marxist activities of real revolutionaries." <<<
Suffice it to say -- Lee Oswald was one goofy dude.
Who the hell knows just exactly WHAT that kook wanted out of his
miserable life? It's hard to tell.
It's fairly obvious to me, though, that he enjoyed shooting at
political leaders with guns (by himself) during the calendar year of
nineteen sixty-three. So maybe that's a clue to Lee's ambitions.
>>> "If you did a detailed comparison, chances are it would answer just about all your questions." <<<
Except maybe those pesky three questions I posed to Mr. Dale K. Myers
on October 28th, 2008, in the post linked below:
www.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/5cef6a9933179e8e
But, like I said in that very post -- "Maybe I'm just naive as all get
out" -- but if I am, I guess I'm in good company....because my
favorite author and attorney, Mr. Vincent T. Bugliosi, seems to be
quite naive along these same lines as well. (Go figure that.)
>>> "IF Oswald acted completely alone, without any "direction", he would still be considered part of the "International Communist Conspiracy" of that cold war period BASED ON the way his life was presented by the WC." <<<
LOL.
Nice try at MERGING the known and irrefutable facts surrounding Lee
Oswald's obviously solo acts of murder on 11/22/63 with the/an
"International Communist Conspiracy".
Can I try that tactic too? Okay, I think I will. --- John Hinckley
acted alone when he shot President Reagan in March of 1981, but he
once had lunch with a former member of the Ku Klux Klan (let's just
say this is true, for the purpose of this discussion)....therefore, I
get to MERGE these two events and pretend that the Klan was in cahoots
with Hinckley on 3/30/81.
Maybe not the perfect analogy....but since yours is silly and
ridiculous on its face, I think it's a reasonable make-believe tie-in
nonetheless.
>>> "To understand Oswald, you study in detail the ICC as it relates to Oswald's known presented activities..." <<<
No. To understand Oswald, you need a shrink. A good one. And we can't
study the mind or the inner thoughts of a dead man. Sorry.
>>> "You can't present Oswald as a Wanabe member of a ICC and then say it's only for pretend, you just generate another "Conspiracy" that Oswald could have been part of." <<<
Who wants to present Oswald as an "ICC member"? Not even very many
hardline CTers want to do that, it would seem. Those CTers want to
present Oswald as a brain-dead dupe, who fell into the hands of the
"real plotters" who wanted JFK graveyard dead in '63.
Oswald is nothing more than a game-board chess piece for most
conspiracy theorists, i.e., a person who can be manipulated and molded
as easily as a hunk of clay. But, IMO, the CTers underestimate the
gray matter inside that hunk of clay. (As of this writing, however, I
can't speak for Mr. Russo or Mr. Molton in this "chess piece" regard;
I'll be reading their book soon.)
Yes, Lee Oswald was as kooky as kooky can get. That couldn't be more
obvious. But he wasn't the total brain-dead moron that some
conspiracists seem to think he was (Oliver Stone comes to mind as one
such conspiracist).
David Von Pein
October 29, 2008
David Von Pein
I PREVIOUSLY SAID:
>>> "...We can't study the mind or the inner thoughts of a dead man." <<<
I NOW SAY:
After reading that quote a second time, I want to amend it. I don't
think it's entirely accurate. In fact, I want to eliminate that quote
entirely....because both Jean Davison and Vince Bugliosi (and others
too) have done a pretty good job at studying the mind and inner
workings of a dead man, by way of their books on the subject.
When I wrote the above quote, I was envisioning a living and breathing
Lee Oswald on a couch, with a psychiatrist questioning him about his
life and inner thoughts. On that level, of course, we can no longer
"study the mind" of Lee Oswald.
But even after his death, since he left such a wide trail of weirdness
to follow (via his written words and his recorded interviews at WDSU-
Radio, etc.), studying his mind and inner thoughts can be achieved--at
least in part.
Walt
> "BROTHERS IN ARMS: THE KENNEDYS, THE CASTROS, AND THE POLITICS OF
> MURDER"
>
> By:
>
> Gus Russo and Stephen Molton
>
> --------------------
>
> Hardcover.
> 560 pages.
> Publisher: Bloomsbury USA.
> Release Date: October 28, 2008.
>
> www.amazon.com/dp/1596915323
>
> ================================================
>
Von Pea Brain wrote:...."Yes, I know that Oswald did, indeed, use his
own gun to kill the
President. That's as obvious as can be."
Hey Stupid..... Let me ask you.... How dis Oswald use his gun to kill
the Presidenr when it was BURIED under a stack of boxes at the time???
Deputy Eugene Boone said that when he found the rife at 1:22 it was
completely hidden beneath heavy boxes of books.
He had to move a box of books and shine his flashlight into the cave
in the boxes of books before he could see the rifle.
Hiding that rifle in the manner that Boone said it was hidden took
several minutes.... And there was NOT an interval of several minutes
between the last shot and the time that DPD Officer Marrion Baker
encounteed Oswald in the lunch room. That rifle was hidden beneath
those boxes BEFORE the assassination so it could NOT have been used to
kill President Kennedy,...... ya lyin asshole.
> www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/thread/4ad0ad75...
David Von Pein
>>> "Hiding that rifle in the manner that Boone said it was hidden took several minutes." <<<
LOL.
Walt was there with Lee Harvey. He knows.
LOL.
(1 more:)
LOL.
David Von Pein
>>> "That rifle was hidden beneath those boxes BEFORE the assassination[,] so it could NOT have been used to kill President Kennedy." <<<
Then how did bullet fragments CE567 & CE569 from that exact rifle get
inside the Presidential limousine on 11/22/63, Mr. Mega-Kook?
Walt
Walt
Hey Von Pea Brain .... Have you forgotten so soon that I told you how
easy it would have been to fire a 6.5mm (.264") through the barrel of
C2766 into a barrel of water , and the recover that bullet that bore
the ballistic markings of C2766 and place it in a teflon sabot of .308
caliber and then load that saboted bullet in a a 30.06 cartridge. That
cartridge could then be fired from a 30.06 into the Presidents car
where when it was recovered it would appear to have been fired from
the rifle that was buried under a stack of heavy boxes of books at the
time of the assassination.
David Von Pein
Walt = Kook.
Walt
> Walt = Kook.
Ha,ha,ha,ha.hee.hee.hee..... I love it when the best rebuttal you
can muster is an ad hominem attack, because it's a sure sign that
you're bankrupt and can't even muster a plausible lie to refute
factual information.
Perhaps you should check with yer hero da Bug, and see if a "smart"
lawyer can help you find a better rebuttal.
ROTFLMAO!!
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Walt,
Yeah, I guess it would be possible to come to such a convoluted
conclusion, I guess. On the other hand it's far more likely that they
were simply fired from Oswald's rifle. Let's not forget that this
fellow was an attempted-murderer-on-the-run before he even fired a
shot at Kennedy. He had a history of this kind of behaviour.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
YoHarvey
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oswald was a rocket scientist compared to the crap these kooks come up
with.
sen...@aol.com
sen...@aol.com
> MURDER"
>
> By:
>
> Gus Russo and Stephen Molton
>
> --------------------
>
> Hardcover.
> 560 pages.
> Publisher: Bloomsbury USA.
> Release Date: October 28, 2008.
>
But.....for the sake of argument, tell us what or who was Oswald's Cuban connection? David Ferrie? Good guess, but just a guess. Robert Morrow? Another good guess. That's it!s I've used up all my guesses.
Now, let's talk reality. Oswald was a tool for the CIA. A handful of renegade CIA persons, planned, organized, and carried out the assassination of Pres. Kennedy. They had motive. Kennedy wanted to "break the Agency into a thousand pieces." The "Handful" had lots of help, like the Pentagon Brass who wanted a war in VietNam. The Military Industrieal Complex, who wanted to make Billions (not millions) off of the war in Southeast Asia. THe oil industry who wanted to drill for oil in the South China Sea (Vietnamese waters). But out of all of those major players, not one on Cuban.
Most of the intelligent people of our little society know Oswald was set up to take the blame for killing Kennedy. He didn't kill JFK, but he was set-up to look like he killed the Presildent. ANd he was not set-up to make it look like he was a patsy, or co-conspiratoe with Cuban connections.
But.......there were Cubans who were players and / or assassins during the JFK assassination. My late wife had grown up in Havana. She moved there when she was three years old when her new parents adopted her in Dallas and took her to their home in Havana. Even though she was not born in the island nation, does that still make her "Cuban'? Yes! Was she involved in the JFK assassination? Yes. She was the shooter behind the picket fence, on the grassy knoll. Anybody else? Yes! There was a CIA agent, first name Felix. I won't list his last name. He was born in Cuba.
If these two people who grew up in Cuba are Oswald's Cuban connection, then it is a very flimsy connection.
>
> www.amazon.com/dp/1596915323
>
>
> =