The Exact "Spacing" Between The Gunshots: Is It Really A Major Concern At All?

David Von Pein

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Oct 2, 2007, 6:57:25 PM10/2/07

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A CTer (PAT SPEER) SAID:

>>> "To support that three evenly-spaced shots were fired by a bolt-action rifle, he {DVP} uses WC testimony taken 4 months or more after the assassination, after the witnesses had been told by the media and their government that Oswald had acted alone. He avoids the earliest statements of the witnesses like the plague. .... This is not chaff, by any means. A competent and committed defense attorney could establish reasonable doubt on this fact alone." <<<

DVP SAID:

When thinking some more about witness Harold Norman and his comments
made after the assassination, this thought struck me:

The argument about the SPACING between the gunshots that Norman heard
is really kind of an irrelevant and unimportant argument.

Why?

Because regardless of the exact number of seconds that passed between
the three shots, ALL THREE OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE SAME RIFLE
ABOVE NORMAN'S HEAD.

And surely no conspiracy theorist wants to propose a theory that has
TWO gunmen and TWO different rifles being fired from the Sniper's Nest
window on the 6th Floor directly above Mr. Norman's head....do they?

Therefore, no matter what the precise spacing was between the shots,
per Norman's never-wavering "I HEARD THREE SHOTS FROM ABOVE ME"
account of the shooting, it HAS to mean that the ONE gunman WAS able
to fire those three shots from the gunman's ONE rifle in the allotted
time to get off three such shots from his bolt-action weapon.

The same argument I just made re. Norman could also be made when it
comes to many of the other Dealey Plaza witnesses, i.e., the witnesses
who fall into the following category: "I HEARD EXACTLY THREE SHOTS AND
ALL OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF THE BOOK
DEPOSITORY BUILDING".

That is to say: What major difference does it really make what the
precise SPACING was between these three shots, which were ALL shots
(per those witnesses in the category just mentioned) that VERY LIKELY
CAME FROM THE VERY SAME GUN?

So, given these parameters that many witnesses DO agree on (i.e.,
exactly 3 shots fired and all coming from ONE rear location at or very
near the Texas School Book Depository Building), the "spacing" issue
is largely a moot point altogether.

======================

MORE:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/cfe2fbc092a445b2

http://www.DAVIDVONPEIN.blogspot.com

Gil Jesus

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Oct 2, 2007, 7:55:53 PM10/2/07

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Of course it doesn't matter if you believe in magic bullets

and "Jet" propelled brains

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8139288327830069420
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7410370350390703351
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8975398003677192076
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1873479998812706917

like all of your reasoning, it's nonsense.

Message has been deleted

David Von Pein

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Oct 2, 2007, 8:22:38 PM10/2/07

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http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/6f107ec16cb99154

>>> "Like all of your reasoning, it's nonsense." <<<

It's nonsense to use common sense when evaluating Norman's "THERE WERE
ONLY THREE SHOTS & ALL CAME FROM ABOVE ME" never-wavering testimony?

Given the above NUMBER-OF-SHOTS data from Norman (and many, many other
witnesses who also heard three shots from ONE location only)....what
difference does it really make what the "spacing" is between these
three shots (from the witnesses' subjective POV, that is)?

Bottom line fact being (PER THOSE "3-SHOT/1-DIRECTION" WITNESSES): The
three shots WERE very likely fired from ONE single gun on
11/22/63....no matter what the exact spacing was considered to be
between those 3 shots.

As usual, Gil Jesus' rebuttal is pretty much worthless.

tomnln

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Oct 2, 2007, 10:50:25 PM10/2/07

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GIL;

You're Sticking it to them AGAIN.

You leave them NO DEFENSE at all.

"Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1191369353.8...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

tomnln

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Oct 2, 2007, 10:55:15 PM10/2/07

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David;
Tell us WHY Williams, Norman & Jarman didn't yell down to the police that
they
were going the Wrong way? (to the grassy knoll)

Tell us WHY Larry Curly & Moe didn't yell down to the police that the shots
came from above them?

Tell us WHY Larry, Curly & Moe themselves RAN to the west end of the TSBD
to look at the GRASSY KNOLL?

"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1191370804....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

David Von Pein

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Oct 3, 2007, 6:36:42 AM10/3/07

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I'd much rather hear Tom-Sack explain to the world WHY he believes
N,J,&W would ALL LIE about certain elements of what they heard on Nov.
22nd?

Is there a SINGLE 11/22 witness (or police official) in existence
that's credible in The Sack's ancient orbs?

(Wait...let me guess.....Tom likes Jean Hill, Ed Hoffman, and Gordy
Arnold. Right? Right.)

tomnln

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Oct 3, 2007, 10:09:06 AM10/3/07

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http://www.whokilledjfk.net/mexcity.htm
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/Walker.htm
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm

THAT's what you should's addressed Years ago.
After it's all from YOUR official records.

"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1191407802....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

curtjester1

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Oct 3, 2007, 10:35:41 AM10/3/07

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On 2 Oct, 18:57, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

You mean the spacing of the 3 shots that hit hardness such as a curb
or a manhole cover?

And what about the six shots detected under analysis?

Mark Weiss, Ernest Aschkenasy, and Grodin worked on the acoustal
evidence, sychronizing the sounds of gunshots to the Zapruder film,
using the last two auditory impulses as the synchronization point for
the fatal head shot. When testing was complete, they all came to the
same conclusion: The audio recording revealed four shots that were
verifiable, with at least two more sounds that appeared to be
additional gunshots. It was clear to us all that the head shot came
from the front.

CJ

> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/cfe2fbc092a4...
>
> http://www.DAVIDVONPEIN.blogspot.com

Brokedad

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Oct 3, 2007, 1:09:26 PM10/3/07

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> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/cfe2fbc092a4...
>
> http://www.DAVIDVONPEIN.blogspot.com

1. Since the WC/aka Specter & Company went to great extents to
misrepresent that Z313 was the last shot fired, it would appear that
it was of some significant consequence to them.

2. In the event that one is attempting to "stuff" three good/accurate
shots, fired from a bolt action rifle into a 5.6 to 5.9 second time
frame, as opposed to two shots fired in this elapsed time period, with
a third shot thereafter, then it would most assuredly have significant
consequences on the abililty of any marksman to accomplish this feat.

3. In the event it were finally established that Z313 was, as is
relatively factually demonstrated, the second shot fired in the
assassination shooting sequence, then it would appear to have greater
impact on the significant consequences that the US Secret Service
Agents assigned to the protection of JFK, actually did virtually
nothing (other than look around) after that time in which the first
shot had been fired, and JFK quite obviously can be observed in a
physical reaction to having been hit by this shot.

4. One other one that I can think of off the top of my head right
now, which is of course the primary reason for why the WC has lead us
all on a very merry ride.

David Von Pein

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Oct 3, 2007, 7:28:02 PM10/3/07

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It's obvious to anyone (except a rabid CTer who desperately wants a
conspiracy) that Harold Norman heard ONE gunman recycling a manual
bolt-action rifle and firing exactly THREE shots from ONE rifle
directly above Norman's head in the Book Depository.

And since the above facts are so obviously true....this means that the
TIMING (or "spacing") issue is a completely moot and unimportant one
FOR THE PURPOSES WITH WHICH CONSPIRACY THEORISTS WISH TO USE THE SO-
CALLED "SPACING PROBLEM" (i.e., the "problem" of ONE man with ONE bolt-
action rifle being able to fire three shots from the Sniper's Nest
during the few seconds when JFK was on Elm Street).

That "problem" immediately vaporizes into thin air when looking at
Harold Norman's testimony all by itself.

And many, many other witnesses can be placed in the same "general"
category that Norman resides in -- i.e., "I HEARD EXACTLY THREE SHOTS
COMING FROM *ONE* LOCATION AT OR NEAR THE BOOK DEPOSITORY".

CTers, naturally, HAVE to believe that ALL of those many witnesses who
fall into the above category are 100% wrong about TWO things (the
total number of gunshots fired in the Plaza and the ONE general REAR
location for all of the three shots they said they heard)....but most
of those same witnesses are positively RIGHT (per CTers) about the
precise "spacing" between the shots they said they heard.

But if the majority of those "3-Shot, 1-Rear Direction" witnesses are
correct about those TWO things (number of shots and the location of
all the shots), and OTHER evidence gathered after the assassination
most certainly indicates that they were 100% correct about those two
things, then the spacing problem isn't a problem at all....because it
means that the lone gunman firing those three shots DID, indeed, fire
three shots from his one gun while JFK was below on Elm Street ---
REGARDLESS OF THE SPACING BETWEEN THOSE GUNSHOTS.

www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com

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David Von Pein

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Oct 3, 2007, 7:48:44 PM10/3/07

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A CTer (RICHARD VAN NOORD) SAID:

>>> "And regardless of whether it was impossible or not...physics be damned." <<<

DVP SAYS:

Some of the witnesses were simply wrong about the exact spacing of
shots 2 and 3. And I've yet to encounter a single witness who was
"logging in" the precise timing of any of the gunshots with a
stopwatch.

Harold Norman's testimony absolutely proves that the "spacing" issue
is pretty much a meaningless one. And the MANY other Dealey Plaza
witnesses who fall into the "3 Shots From The TSBD" category generally
prove the very same thing. (Although not QUITE as rock-solidly as
Harold Norman proves it...because no other witness was nearly as close
to Oswald and the Sniper's Perch as was Norman.)

HOW MANY SHOTS DID YOU HEAR?:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/shots3.jpg

WHERE DID THE SHOTS COME FROM?:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/shots4.jpg

But when we put Norman's "3 Shots" testimony together with the many,
many other witnesses who heard basically the same "3 TSBD Shots"
thing, it doesn't take an Einstein to figure this thing out ---
whoever it was who fired those three shots WAS able to fire them on
November 22nd.

But...let's just let common sense and THE BULK OF THE 3-SHOT WITNESSES
be damned, right Richard?

David Von Pein

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Oct 3, 2007, 11:44:55 PM10/3/07

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>>> "And Oswald was barely qualified as marksman." <<<

Sure, if you want to count his "190" score in 1959, shortly before
getting out of the Marines. But when he was REALLY TRYING, he made
"Sharpshooter" with a 212 score in 1956.

Do you mind if I use the "It's Like Riding A Bicycle; Once You Learn,
You Never Forget" analogy here? Well, I'm going to anyway; disagree if
you want to.

But the fact is: Oswald was trained by Marines to shoot a rifle, and
LHO did pretty well in Basic Training too. Nelson Delgado, in 1986 at
the LHO Mock Trial, even admitted that he thought Oswald could have
performed better with his rifle in 1959 if he had wanted to perform
better......

VINCENT BUGLIOSI -- "Mr. Delgado, I believe you testified before the
Warren Commission, that on the rifle range Oswald was kind of a joke,
a pretty big joke."

NELSON DELGADO (served with Oswald in Marine Corps) -- "Yes, he was."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "You're aware that at the time Oswald was doing poorly
on the range, he was about to be released from the Marines, is that
correct?"

MR. DELGADO -- "Yes, he was."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Are you aware that in 1956, when Oswald first joined
the Marines, and was going through Basic Training, he fired a 212 on
the rifle range with an M-1 rifle, which made him a 'sharpshooter' at
that time -- are you aware of that?"

MR. DELGADO -- "Yes."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Given the fact that Oswald was about to get out of
the Marines when he was in your unit, and the fact that he showed no
interest in firing on the range -- you don't attribute his poor
showing on the range to his being a poor shot?"

MR. DELGADO -- "No."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "He could have done better, you felt, if he tried?"

MR. DELGADO -- "Certainly."

www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html/ref=cm_rdp_dp/105-4913190-2911629?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000GCVDDA&authorID=A1FDW1SPYKB354&store=yourstore&reviewID=RXCFYPZ5IVRFW&displayType=ReviewDetail

~~~~~~~~~~~

Also:

Oswald's Marine Corps scorebook (which John Lattimer shows on camera
during the 2003 ABC-TV documentary "Beyond Conspiracy") depicts some
very good scores made by Oswald at the "200 Yards" distance (more than
twice the 88-yard distance that Oswald achieved in Dallas for the
fatal JFK head shot). Lattimer shows us two separate nearly-perfect
scores of "48 out of 50" and "49 out of 50" at the same 200-yard
distance.

Lattimer also (on camera) is able to dry-fire three shots from a
Carcano rifle in 7.2 seconds (Oswald likely had 8.4 seconds). That
wasn't an exact replication of the Dallas shooting, true. But the 89-
year-old Lattimer (who recently passed away) was able to dry-fire 3
shots from a manual bolt-action rifle in just 7.2 seconds (including
an extra bit of "aim" time before shot #3, just like Oswald probably
did on 11/22/63).

Lattimer, btw, DID perform some accurate re-creations of the
assassination (and not just dry-firings) in the 1970s, which were done
for his experiments which appear, in detail, in his 1980 book "Kennedy
And Lincoln".

In summary -- Many people have, indeed, equalled and even surpassed
Lee Oswald's "3-shot Dallas feat".

>>> "And all those witnesses who said {shots} two and three were nearly simultaneous were just mistaken." <<<

Well, if you want to put Harold Norman specifically in that
category....then, yes, he was definitely mistaken if he ever said that
shots 2 and 3 were "nearly simultaneous" (which Norman never, ever
said, btw; that's your CT interpretation, it would seem).

And we KNOW Norman must be wrong (even if he DID say something along
those "simultaneous" lines)....because Norman DID hear THREE shots
coming from ONE place where (undoubtedly) only ONE rifle was being
fired at JFK's limousine. (Howard Brennan, in fact, confirms that
there were NOT two different guns pointing out of the window directly
above Norman's head.)

And, to a large extent, ALL of those other "3 SHOTS FROM 1 REAR/TSBD
LOCATION" Dealey Plaza witnesses can be placed into the same general
basket as Harold Norman....which MUST mean that the witnesses who fall
into the above category who said the second and third shots were
"right on top of one another" (or something similar to those words)
were NOT indicating that those second and third shots could NOT have
come from the same rifle.

Because the HUGE majority of those witnesses did hear THREE shots and
they did say that all of those shots came from a SINGLE rear location
(probably the TSBD, where other evidence was found to verify this
location as the one and only source of likely gunfire that day).

www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html/ref=cm_rdp_dp/105-4913190-2911629?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0151522812&authorID=A1FDW1SPYKB354&store=yourstore&reviewID=R2Y8HMTWRF6L2Q&displayType=ReviewDetail

http://i7.tinypic.com/4hnd7gj.jpg

David Von Pein

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Oct 4, 2007, 7:53:01 PM10/4/07

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>>> "As for Norman, his testimony can be interpreted by you as: three shots, one person....or three shots, two people....or three shots, shots two and three very close together. I find it funny they hear the shells hit the floor, but not the assailant walk or run across the floor above them. That's another one that stretches the bounds of imagination." <<<

I guess in Richard's crazy conspiracy-flavored world, Harold Norman
heard three shots from TWO guns being fired from the small Sniper's
Nest directly above Norman's head. And Howard Brennan just happened to
miss seeing the second gun being aimed at JFK.

And I guess the shooters got lucky when only ONE rifle (or "pipe") was
seen protruding from the window by witnesses Euins, Jackson, and Couch
too.

And (evidently, per Mr. Van Noord) it would seem that NOBODY
physically walked or ran out of the Sniper's Nest at all! Because, per
the CT mantra, since Norman & Co. didn't hear any footsteps leaving
the SN, it must mean that OSWALD wasn't up there.

But what about the one or MORE "real killers" (per CTers) who were in
the SN? Didn't any of them have legs and feet?

Or do CTers want to purport that the real killers just stayed inside
the Sniper's Nest for several minutes after the shooting, knowing full
well that the place would be crawling with cops very soon?

So many conspiracy theories....so little (common) sense do ANY of them
make.

Message has been deleted

David Von Pein

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Oct 4, 2007, 8:31:46 PM10/4/07

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>>> "David: yeah, like Oswald being seen at 12:15 on the first floor and Arnold Rowland seeing him at 12:15 in the snipers nest. Wow! Two Oswalds...now that's magic!!" <<<

Yeah...if you want to believe someone named Carolyn Arnold....who also
said she saw Oswald near the first-floor doorway at 12:25 PM (but not
in CONJUNCTION with her previous tale about seeing LHO in the 2nd-
Floor lunchroom at 12:15). The 12:25 tale replaced her 12:15 story.

But, then again.....Maybe the WHOLE BUILDING was filled with nothing
but Oswald look-alikes on November 22nd and nobody could tell one from
the others (per the John Armstrong-like "Harvey & Lee" craziness).

Yeah, let's go with that theory (until the next batch of CT silliness
comes along in 2008).

======================

One of my favorite parts in Mr. Bugliosi's JFK book is when he takes
ample time to (rightfully) shred John Armstrong's idiocy to ribbons.
The Armstrong-debunking pages of "Reclaiming History" are worthy of
multiple re-reads. Some samples:

"John Armstrong actually went on to publish a 983-page book in 2003
called 'Harvey and Lee: How the CIA Framed Oswald', in which he
carries his fantasy about a double Oswald to such absurd lengths that
not only doesn't it deserve to be dignified in the main text of my
book, but I resent even having to waste a word on it in this
endnote. ....

"Obviously, if Armstrong had a source for any of the things he
charges, he would be only too eager to give it. Instead, his only
source is his exceptionally fertile imagination. ....

"On the day of the assassination, Armstrong has both Lee Harvey Oswald
and Harvey Oswald, two people {per looney author Armstrong} who are
spitting images of each other, in the Depository. .... At the moment
of the assassination, HARVEY Oswald was in the second-floor lunchroom
having lunch and LEE Harvey Oswald was on the sixth floor firing at
Kennedy. ....

"Lee Harvey Oswald escaped arrest, but Armstrong doesn't tell his
readers what happened to him thereafter, though...he tells them near
the beginning of the book that he may be "very much alive"." --
Vincent T. Bugliosi; Pages 565-567 of "Reclaiming History" (Endnotes)

======================

Lots of additional conspiracy-destroying gems can be found in my 3-
part book review for Vince Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History: The
Assassination Of President John F. Kennedy" (linked below):

www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=3200858