RANDLE/FRAZIER AND THE BAG, REVISITED
David Von Pein
www.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/7da5ce3a4ab08af3
>>> "Lee [Oswald] obviously did not bring the rifle in by the bag. If he did, LNer's would show it." <<<
Lee Harvey Oswald quite obviously DID carry his Mannlicher-Carcano
rifle into the Texas School Book Depository in the paper bag seen by
Wes Frazier and Linnie Randle on the morning of 11/22/63. To believe
otherwise is the very essence of denial.
=======================================
"And it's obvious that Oswald carried that rifle into the
building that day in that large brown paper bag. It couldn't be more
obvious. As far as Mr. Frazier's testimony about Oswald carrying the
bag under his armpit, he conceded he never paid close attention to
just how Oswald was carrying that bag. He didn't have any reason to."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; July 1986; Via Closing Arguments to the jury
during the TV docu-trial "On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald"
=======================================
Related excerpts from an Internet post I wrote in October 2007:
Via [Wesley] Frazier's 11/22/63 affidavit, we find something
interesting regarding the bag:
"Before I got in the car, I glanced in the back seat, and saw a
big sack. It must have been about 2 feet long, and the top of the sack
was sort of folded up, and the rest of the sack had been kind of
folded under. I asked Lee what was in the sack, and he said "curtain
rods", and I remembered that he had told me the day before that he was
going to bring some curtain rods."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb4.htm
The intriguing part of the above affidavit, IMO, is:
"The top of the sack was sort of folded up, and the rest of the
sack had been kind of folded under."
Therefore, Frazier is saying via his affidavit comments made on the
very same day he saw Oswald with the paper bag that the "2-foot"-long
bag had at least one of its ends "folded" in some fashion, which would
certainly make the overall length of the bag longer when the bag is
completely unfolded.
Frazier's other "folded" remark in his affidavit is a bit more
ambiguous and hard to figure out.....
"And the rest of the sack had been kind of folded under."
The "folded under" comment could indicate the bottom being "folded
under", I suppose. But it would seem he's referring to the bulk of the
LENGTH of the bag in that "folded under" comment. I'm not quite sure.
But that could also explain why Frazier said that the full width of
the bag looked too wide when he was shown the unfolded bag by the WC.
If the WHOLE bag, for the most part, had been "folded under" itself in
some fashion, then when Frazier saw Oswald with the bag on November
22, the bag would obviously have looked NOT AS WIDE in Frazier's eyes.
The above "folded" comments in Wes Frazier's November 22nd affidavit
seem to have been overlooked by many CTers who are bent on clearing
dear, sweet Lee Harvey of the Presidential murder he so obviously
committed with the object that was stuffed inside that paper bag (with
multiple "folds") that he put in Frazier's car on the morning of
November 22, 1963.
BTW, a man who is 5'9" tall can't fit a "27-inch" object or a 24-inch
object under his armpit while also cupping it in his hand (unless he's
got monkeys for close relatives). So, the Randle/Frazier estimates as
to the length of the package they saw are almost certainly WRONG--even
from a "CT" POV.
In other words, Frazier can't possibly be exactly correct about BOTH
things -- i.e., "under the armpit and cupped in his right hand" AND
"roughly about two feet long" (via his WC testimony).
Both of those things cannot be 100% true. But CTers like to think that
Frazier's and Randle's bag-length estimates ARE, indeed, spot-on
accurate.
And isn't it funny that the empty 6th-Floor bag just happened to have
the RIGHT PALMPRINT of Lee Oswald on it....perfectly matching the way
Wes Frazier said Oz carried the bag "cupped in his right hand".
The "under the armpit" observation of Frazier's was obviously a
mistake....and he said so, under oath:
VINCENT BUGLIOSI (during the 1986 Docu-Trial in London) -- "Did you
recall how he [Lee Harvey Oswald] was carrying the bag?"
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "Yes sir. He was carrying it parallel to his
body."
VB -- "Okay, so he carried the bag right next to his body....on the
right side?"
BWF -- "Yes sir. On the right side."
VB -- "Was it cupped in his hand and under his armpit? I think you've
said that in the past."
BWF -- "Yes sir."
VB -- "Mr. Frazier, is it true that you paid hardly any attention to
this bag?"
BWF -- "That is true."
VB -- "So the bag could have been protruding out in front of his body,
and you wouldn't have been able to see it, is that correct?"
BWF -- "That is true."
www.YouTube.com/watch?v=c0XWKbag5A4
And now a passage from VB's "Reclaiming History":
"Frazier's statements that the rifle was tucked under Oswald's
armpit is hardly as definitive as the critics claim. While Frazier's
description of how Oswald carried the rifle was consistent in all of
his statements to investigators, it was clearly inferable from his
Warren Commission testimony that this was only an assumption on his
part based on his limited view.
"Frazier told the Commission that "the only time" he saw the way
Oswald was carrying the package was from the back, and that all that
was visible was "just a little strip [of the package] running down"
along the inside of Oswald's arm. ....
"Since he could only see this small portion of the package under
Oswald's right arm, and because he didn't notice any part of the
package sticking above his right shoulder...Frazier assumed that it
must have been tucked under his armpit, telling the Commission, "I
don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your
armpit."
"Although the critics have been quick to embrace Frazier's
conclusion, it should be repeated that he told the Commission over and
over (no less than five separate times) that he didn't pay much
attention to the package or to the way Oswald carried it. ....
"In other words, and understandably, Frazier was confused. So we
don't even know, for sure, how Oswald was carrying the rifle in front
of his body, which Frazier could not see. At the London trial {in
1986} I asked Frazier, "So the bag could have been protruding out in
front of his body and you wouldn't have been able to see it?" and he
responded, "That's true."
"The most likely scenario was postulated well by Dan Rather {of
CBS News in June 1967}, who rhetorically told his audience, "You can
decide whether Frazier, walking some fifty feet behind and, in his own
words, not paying much attention, might have missed the few inches of
the narrow end of such a package sticking up past Oswald's shoulder"."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 409-410 of "Reclaiming History" (Via the
Endnotes on CD-ROM)(c.2007)
www.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/025a3639eb985034
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/118eaf60b3c0c0aa
Anyway, my earlier comment, which was.....
"And BOTH [Randle/Frazier] confirmed that the bag found on the
6th Floor after the assassination generally looked like the bag they
saw Oz carrying on 11/22." [DVP; 10/13/2007]
.....wasn't referring to the exact LENGTH of the sixth-floor bag
(quite obviously). I was referring to the TYPE and GENERAL LOOK of the
brown paper bag (CE142) that was shown to Frazier and Randle by the
Warren Commission.
Frazier, in his usual confused, odd, and hard-to-understand way of
expressing himself, told the WC that the color of the bag Oswald
carried closely matched the color of the replica bag made by the FBI
for general identification purposes (CE364).
And Frazier said that the untreated and lighter portion of CE142 (the
actual Sniper's-Nest bag) "could have been, and it couldn't have been"
similar to the color of the bag he saw in the back seat of his car on
the morning of November 22nd.*
* = Yes, once more, we're forced to try and figure out some of Wesley
Frazier's rather odd phraseology. But the words "could have been" are
certainly in there. So use your proverbial grain of salt here, as we
should do with all of Frazier's testimony to a certain extent,
especially when he starts to talk in strange ways, which he often did
in front of the WC.
Now, with respect to Linnie Mae Randle's Warren Commission testimony
re. the general look and color of the paper bag:
JOE BALL -- "Looking at this part of the bag which has not been
discolored, does that appear similar to the color of the bag you saw
Lee carrying that morning?"
LINNIE MAE RANDLE -- "Yes; it is a heavy type of wrapping paper."
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0269a.jpg
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0492b.jpg
I'll offer up this common-sense question once again, because it's
worth repeating numerous times:
I wonder what the odds are of Lee Oswald having carried a DIFFERENT
brown bag into work from the one WITH HIS TWO IDENTIFIABLE PRINTS ON
IT that was found by the cops in the Sniper's Nest on the 6th Floor?
Care to guess at what those odds might be? They must be close to "O.J.
DNA" type numbers (in favor of the empty brown bag that was found by
the police on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository being the very same
bag that Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle saw in Lee Harvey
Oswald's hands on the morning of November 22nd, 1963 AD).
I'm eagerly awaiting the logical and believable conspiracy-slanted
explanation that will answer the question of why a 38-inch empty paper
bag (which could house Oswald's 34.8-inch disassembled rifle), which
was an empty bag with Oswald's fingerprints on it, was in the place
where it was found after the assassination (the sixth-floor Sniper's
Nest) and yet still NOT have Lee Oswald present at that sniper's
window on 11/22/63.
I, for one, cannot think of a single "Oswald Is Innocent" explanation
for that empty paper sack being where it was found after the
assassination of John Kennedy....AND with Oswald's fingerprints on it.
Can you?
David Von Pein
October 14, 2007
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/fb8cfb984a9b889c
David Von Pein
>>> "If Oswald wasn't carrying the 38" long paper bag while standing outside Frazier's window, WHERE WAS IT?" <<<
I can't believe this particular sub-topic is even surfacing.
The paper bag was already in Wesley Frazier's car by the time Wesley's
mother saw Oswald standing at the window.
That fact couldn't be any more obvious via Linnie Mae Randle's
testimony. Oswald went directly to Frazier's car after crossing the
street:
Mrs. RANDLE. I saw him as he crossed the street and come across my
driveway to where Wesley had his car parked by the carport.
[....]
Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was
laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him
as he walked across my carport and...at that moment I wondered who was
fixing to come to my back door, so I opened the door slightly. .... I
assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and
stood on the driveway.
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/fb8cfb984a9b889c
David Von Pein
>>> "I`ll expand on why I think it is unlikely that Essie [Buell Wesley Frazier's mother] saw Oswald after he put the bag in car. After Oswald put it in the car he is seen at the kitchen door. I just don`t see him wandering out to the street during this time. He might wait by the car for Frazier, maybe out front of the carport, maybe in the carport, but I think it unlikely he wandered to where he could be seen from the kitchen window again. Possible, but seems unlikely to me." <<<
In the final analysis concerning this matter, I think Linnie Mae
Randle's testimony settles the issue about when Lee Oswald went to
Buell Wesley Frazier's car and put the rifle package in the back seat.
Linnie Mae said that she saw Oswald AS HE CROSSED WESTBROOK STREET
heading toward the Randle house. And right after crossing the street,
Oswald headed straight for Frazier's car.
To believe that Oswald still had the package with him when Frazier's
mother (Essie Mae Williams) saw him through the kitchen window, we'd
have to believe that Oswald crossed the street....went directly to
Frazier's car....opened the back door of the car....and then walked
back toward the Randle house (the kitchen side) with the bag still
with him.
That's just silly, because the only reason for Oswald to go to
Frazier's car would be to put the bag inside the car. What other
possible reason would he have for going to Frazier's car immediately
after crossing the street?
>>> "Do you think it is possible for her [Linnie Mae Randle] to have seen this [LHO putting the package in the back seat of Frazier's 1953 Chevrolet sedan], David?" <<<
I'm not sure. But I certainly think it's possible, given the amount of
space between the slats in the carport (as seen in the photo below):
www.MaryFerrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relPageId=17
I certainly don't think Linnie Mae was lying at all. She possibly
HEARD more than she SAW.
I.E.,
She peeks out the kitchen door and HEARS the person who she just saw
walk toward her brother's car (Lee Oswald). It's obvious that the
person at Frazier's car at that point in time was the person Randle
just saw cross the street (Oswald).
Randle then HEARS the door of Frazier's car being opened. It's also
possible that she gets enough of a glimpse of Oswald through the slats
of the carport to see at least a portion of Oswald as he places the
bag in the car.
So, the combination of HEARING what Oswald was doing at the car and
very likely SEEING a little bit of Oswald through the slats was
certainly enough information, IMO, for Mrs. Linnie Mae Randle to
reasonably testify in the following manner:
"He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying
the package down, so I closed the door."
>>> "One thing to consider, if Oswald put the rifle in the car, he wouldn`t be apt to be wandering where he could be seen from the kitchen window again." <<<
Why not? At that point, he wasn't still carrying the rifle package for
everybody to see. So there's no real reason he should cower and hide
in a corner someplace at that point in time.
As I think about this situation some more, here are some of my
additional thoughts on it (as I try to look at things from Oswald's
point-of-view):
Oswald was probably getting a little bit anxious as he waited outside
Frazier's house on the morning of November 22nd. According to
Frazier's testimony:
"I just thought maybe, you know, he [Lee Oswald] just left a
little bit earlier, but when I looked up and saw that the clock
was...I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late because,
as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and talking to
the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was."
So, if Frazier is correct about running a little later than usual on
11/22/63, I can certainly envision Oswald possibly deliberately
WANTING to make himself visible to people (Frazier particularly)
inside the Randle house after LHO put the bag in the car. So it
doesn't seem surprising to me that Oswald might want to move out in
front of the kitchen window where he could reasonably assume Wes
Frazier might see him.
If it had gotten a little bit later, I can also envision Oswald
knocking on the door to remind Wesley that it's time to leave for
work.
It's also quite possible that Oswald was anxious to get to work a
little EARLIER than usual on November 22nd.
Why?
Because if he gets there early, he'd have a better chance to stash his
rifle package somewhere without anybody seeing him with the package
(or at the very least, fewer people than normal would be apt to see
Oswald coming in the back door with a long bag if he got to work
early), since most of the Depository workers would be coming in after
Oswald arrives.
This particular theory assumes that the doors to the Texas School Book
Depository Building would be open to any employee prior to 8:00 AM (or
possibly even prior to approximately 7:30 AM, given this "early
arrival" theory).
I would assume that an employee could arrive early if he wanted to,
without having to wait for the doors to be unlocked, but I have no
personal knowledge if this is true or not. Perhaps Gary Mack knows. (I
wouldn't be surprised if he did have this tidbit of information,
seeing as how Mr. Mack is "The Walking TSBD/Dealey Plaza
Encyclopedia".)
This is all pure speculation, of course. And in the long run, this
type of nit-picking and conjecture about Oswald's movements don't
amount to anything substantial at all. But it is fun to engage in this
kind of guesswork from time to time. Heck, conspiracy theorists
specialize in such speculative endeavors regarding things far more
important than this topic. ;)
=====================================
ADDITIONAL (FUN) SPECULATION --- A LEE HARVEY OSWALD "TIMELINE":
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3a3d654f3c43ed16
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/679eb16f02238b52
=====================================
Bud
> www.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/7da5c...
>
> >>> "I`ll expand on why I think it is unlikely that Essie [Buell Wesley Frazier's mother] saw Oswald after he put the bag in car. After Oswald put it in the car he is seen at the kitchen door. I just don`t see him wandering out to the street during this time. He might wait by the car for Frazier, maybe out front of the carport, maybe in the carport, but I think it unlikely he wandered to where he could be seen from the kitchen window again. Possible, but seems unlikely to me." <<<
>
> In the final analysis concerning this matter, I think Linnie Mae
> Randle's testimony settles the issue about when Lee Oswald went to
> Buell Wesley Frazier's car and put the rifle package in the back seat.
Not the point I was disputing at all.
> Linnie Mae said that she saw Oswald AS HE CROSSED WESTBROOK STREET
> heading toward the Randle house. And right after crossing the street,
> Oswald headed straight for Frazier's car.
Again, that isn`t what I was contesting.
> To believe that Oswald still had the package with him when Frazier's
> mother (Essie Mae Williams) saw him through the kitchen window, we'd
> have to believe that Oswald crossed the street....went directly to
> Frazier's car....opened the back door of the car....and then walked
> back toward the Randle house (the kitchen side) with the bag still
> with him.
Why do you assume that Essie saw Oswald out the window at a
different time than LMR? Couldn`t they be looking out the same window
at the same time, with Essie having a worse vantage and lesser field
of sight, so that she only caught a glimpse of Oswald, and didn`t
notice the bag?
> That's just silly, because the only reason for Oswald to go to
> Frazier's car would be to put the bag inside the car. What other
> possible reason would he have for going to Frazier's car immediately
> after crossing the street?
Damn, David, I know why the CTers miss my points, but I thought
you`d catch it.
> >>> "Do you think it is possible for her [Linnie Mae Randle] to have seen this [LHO putting the package in the back seat of Frazier's 1953 Chevrolet sedan], David?" <<<
>
> I'm not sure. But I certainly think it's possible, given the amount of
> space between the slats in the carport (as seen in the photo below):
Thats only one factor. There seems to more wood than space, and the
further back from the openings, the harder to discern detail beyond
(the far side of Frazier`s car would be well over 20 feet from LMR`s
kitchen door). But the bigger problem I see is the roof of Frazier`s
car blocking her view. Look at CE 447 here...
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138993
She told the FBI that Oswald went to far side of Frazier`s car and
opened the door. That means LMR has to see over the roof of her
husband`s car in the carport, through the slat openings and into the
near window of Frazier`s car to see him lay the package in the
backseat of Frazier`s car.
> www.MaryFerrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relP...
>
> I certainly don't think Linnie Mae was lying at all. She possibly
> HEARD more than she SAW.
>
> I.E.,
>
> She peeks out the kitchen door and HEARS the person who she just saw
> walk toward her brother's car (Lee Oswald). It's obvious that the
> person at Frazier's car at that point in time was the person Randle
> just saw cross the street (Oswald).
>
> Randle then HEARS the door of Frazier's car being opened. It's also
> possible that she gets enough of a glimpse of Oswald through the slats
> of the carport to see at least a portion of Oswald as he places the
> bag in the car.
>
> So, the combination of HEARING what Oswald was doing at the car and
> very likely SEEING a little bit of Oswald through the slats was
> certainly enough information, IMO, for Mrs. Linnie Mae Randle to
> reasonably testify in the following manner:
>
> "He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying
> the package down, so I closed the door."
Right. But this makes it more of a conclusion than an actual
observation, and I think that was my point. Also, hearing her brother
say that the package was in the backseat could reinforce the episode
in her mind.
> >>> "One thing to consider, if Oswald put the rifle in the car, he wouldn`t be apt to be wandering where he could be seen from the kitchen window again." <<<
>
> Why not? At that point, he wasn't still carrying the rifle package for
> everybody to see. So there's no real reason he should cower and hide
> in a corner someplace at that point in time.
Nor is there any reason for him to wander away from that important
item back into view of the kitchen window.
> As I think about this situation some more, here are some of my
> additional thoughts on it (as I try to look at things from Oswald's
> point-of-view):
>
> Oswald was probably getting a little bit anxious as he waited outside
> Frazier's house on the morning of November 22nd. According to
> Frazier's testimony:
>
> "I just thought maybe, you know, he [Lee Oswald] just left a
> little bit earlier, but when I looked up and saw that the clock
> was...I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late because,
> as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and talking to
> the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was."
>
> So, if Frazier is correct about running a little later than usual on
> 11/22/63, I can certainly envision Oswald possibly deliberately
> WANTING to make himself visible to people (Frazier particularly)
> inside the Randle house after LHO put the bag in the car. So it
> doesn't seem surprising to me that Oswald might want to move out in
> front of the kitchen window where he could reasonably assume Wes
> Frazier might see him.
He went to the kitchen door. I don`t disagree that this might be to
prod Frazier into motion.
Bud
David Von Pein
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0d8639a8304e5e83
>>> "Why do you assume that Essie saw Oswald out the window at a different time than Linnie Mae Randle?" <<<
Because Oswald was MOVING when Linnie Mae saw him. He wasn't
stationary.
Do you think that a MOVING Oswald would have been able to be seen by
Linnie Mae and Essie...and then after each of them sees Oswald moving
toward the carport, do you think there would have been enough time
before the moving Oswald left their field of vision for Essie to ask
Wesley "Who is that?" and then for Wesley to look out the window and
still see the moving Oswald as he headed for the carport area?
I'm dubious about Essie and Wesley seeing a MOVING Oswald. I'd bet he
was pretty much standing still and stationary when Essie and Wesley
saw him out the window.
Plus, there's the fact that Linnie Mae would have probably been
blocking part of the view of Wesley and Essie, because Linnie Mae was
standing in front of the kitchen window when she saw Oswald crossing
the street (see photo below):
www.MaryFerrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relPageId=14
And it sure looks like a fairly small window to me. Hence, it seems
likely to me that a MOVING Oswald would only appear in that window for
a fleeting moment to anyone who wasn't standing right at the window.
www.MaryFerrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relPageId=16
>>> "Nor is there any reason for him [Oswald] to wander away from that important item back into view of the kitchen window." <<<
Bud, you're talking as if the carport area and the street (Westbrook)
are miles from each other. They're not. The carport is very close to
the street itself (see photos below). If Oswald had walked just a few
feet away from Wesley Frazier's car, he would have been in the street:
www.MaryFerrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relPageId=13
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0097a.jpg
Bud
> www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0d8639a8304e5e83
>
> >>> "Why do you assume that Essie saw Oswald out the window at a different time than Linnie Mae Randle?" <<<
>
> Because Oswald was MOVING when Linnie Mae saw him. He wasn't
> stationary.
So? Nothing of what Essie said rules out him moving at the time she
saw him.
> Do you think that a MOVING Oswald would have been able to be seen by
> Linnie Mae and Essie...
Sure, why not? If Essie is next to LMR (to her left), helping with
breakfast (many women won`t sit and let the host serve them, they have
to get up and help), than her vantage would be a lot less than LMR`s.
Which could account for her only getting a glimpse, and missing the
bag altogether.
>and then after each of them sees Oswald moving
> toward the carport, do you think there would have been enough time
> before the moving Oswald left their field of vision for Essie to ask
> Wesley "Who is that?" and then for Wesley to look out the window and
> still see the moving Oswald as he headed for the carport area?
Doubtful Wesley left the table until he left (eating breakfast with
the nieces). LMR says she asks who was at the DOOR, and Wesley says
"Lee". Does it seem likely Wesley identified him twice, once for Essie
and once for LMR?
Keep in mind that Wesley could have IDied Oswald without seeing him
at all, just making the assumption he was the person he was supposed
to meet at this time at this place.
> I'm dubious about Essie and Wesley seeing a MOVING Oswald. I'd bet he
> was pretty much standing still and stationary when Essie and Wesley
> saw him out the window.
Possible. I find it more likely Essie and LMR saw him walking to the
car, and Wesley identified Oswald when he spooked LMR at the door.
> Plus, there's the fact that Linnie Mae would have probably been
> blocking part of the view of Wesley and Essie, because Linnie Mae was
> standing in front of the kitchen window when she saw Oswald crossing
> the street (see photo below):
>
> www.MaryFerrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relP...
Yah, now picture Essie to her left, back a little bit. She wouldn`t
have as good a vantage, maybe only seeing Oswald from the waist up
when he came into her view. Hence hence a glimpse, and hence she
misses the bag.
> And it sure looks like a fairly small window to me. Hence, it seems
> likely to me that a MOVING Oswald would only appear in that window for
> a fleeting moment to anyone who wasn't standing right at the window.
>
> www.MaryFerrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relP...
Essie said a glimpse. Isn`t that the same as fleeting look?
> >>> "Nor is there any reason for him [Oswald] to wander away from that important item back into view of the kitchen window." <<<
>
> Bud, you're talking as if the carport area and the street (Westbrook)
> are miles from each other. They're not. The carport is very close to
> the street itself (see photos below). If Oswald had walked just a few
> feet away from Wesley Frazier's car, he would have been in the street:
Check the photo that shows the view from the window. He has to
come out to the near corner of the driveway to be seen (if Essie could
see to the front of the carport, why did she go to the kitchen door to
look?). It just seems unlikely he would go there after depositing the
bag in the car. I feel it is more likely Essie saw Oz when LMR saw Oz,
on the way to the car.
> www.MaryFerrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relP...
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_...
David Von Pein
>>> "I find it more likely Essie and Linnie Mae Randle saw him [Oswald] walking to the car, and Wesley identified Oswald when he spooked LMR at the door." <<<
According to Wesley Frazier, Oswald was "looking in the window for
me". Take it with a grain of salt (because Frazier talked in riddles
some of the time and was hard to understand), but here it is anyway:
"Mother just happened to glance up and saw this man, you know,
who was Lee looking in the window for me and she said, "Who is that?"
And I said, "That is Lee"." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; 1964
>>> "Doubtful Wesley left the table until he left." <<<
What makes you think Wesley needed to leave the table to catch a view
of Oswald out the kitchen window?
Bud
Looking at some bad scans of the carport looking in, I thought the
kitchen door had a few steps going up to the kitchen floor level from
the carport ground level. Looking at the better versions you produced,
I saw that what I took to be steps was a bike, I think. I thought the
window was too high to look in, and I thought I had read that Oswald
looked in the window of the door going out into the carport. Both
wrong, I`m afraid. Sorry about that.
Looking through the material closer, I found this 11-23 FBI report
of LMR that states...
"Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area
of her residence where he waited for Frazier to come out of the house
and give him a ride to work."
The front of Randle`s house was on 5th street, all the way around
from where the car was parked.
Bud
David, I`m using the post just to ask you a quick question (response
time is quicker here in the nuthouse). The question is "What is the
exact make and model of Buell Wesley Frazier`s (note the correct
sequencing of his nem) car?" any help would be appreciated. I`m
getting 1954 chevrolet from sources, but not the make and model.
David Von Pein
>>> "David, I`m using the post just to ask you a quick question. .... The question is "What is the exact make and model of Buell Wesley Frazier`s car?" .... I`m getting 1954 chevrolet from sources, but not the make and model." <<<
I'm fairly certain Frazier had a 1953 Chevrolet sedan. The exact
"model" name is something I do not know.
But the car shown outside the carport in CE447 is not the same car
that Frazier owned in Nov. '63. Compare CE447 to the photo of
Frazier's '53 car as seen in CD496 below:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0097a.jpg
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=51
Also -- At about the 6:30 mark in the video below, you can hear "Four
Days In November" narrator Richard Basehart say "1953 Chevrolet sedan"
when referring to Frazier's vehicle. And you can also see the car
itself, as Frazier performs a re-creation of his 11/22/63 actions:
Bud
> >>> "David, I`m using the post just to ask you a quick question. .... The question is "What is the exact make and model of Buell Wesley Frazier`s car?" .... I`m getting 1954 chevrolet from sources, but not the make and model." <<<
>
> I'm fairly certain Frazier had a 1953 Chevrolet sedan. The exact
> "model" name is something I do not know.
Thanks a lot, David, you were very helpful.
> But the car shown outside the carport in CE447 is not the same car
> that Frazier owned in Nov. '63. Compare CE447 to the photo of
> Frazier's '53 car as seen in CD496 below:
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_...
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=108...
I believe the car shown next to the carport here...
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relPageId=18
...is not Frazier`s car. That`s what was throwing me off, the car
shown in CE447 is some kind of Ford, I think (Fairlaine, maybe). The
car shown in CD496 is the same one shown in the utube video you linked
to, I think).
> Also -- At about the 6:30 mark in the video below, you can hear "Four
> Days In November" narrator Richard Basehart say "1953 Chevrolet sedan"
> when referring to Frazier's vehicle. And you can also see the car
> itself, as Frazier performs a re-creation of his 11/22/63 actions:
>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=zURZiMHDWi4
Very cool, I got a lot of ideas from that. It`s a shame they kept
zooming in on non-essential items, I would have liked to get a better
look at the slatted wall in the carport. It did give an idea how long
Oswald would have been in LMR`s sight out the window when he crossed.
Like I thought, about 15 seconds would be about right. I`ve been
wondering why she didn`t recognize Oswald, if you see someone heading
towards your house, you would try to see if you recognize them,
regardless of what they are carrying. Once you figure out who they
are, it helps you figure out what they are carrying and why. Her
inability to ID Oswald speaks to her overall observation if you ask
me.
Anyway, the reason I wanted to know what car was so I could look up
backseats. Clark is saying Frazier was helped by saying the package
was half the length of his seat. So I wanted to find out the length of
the seat. Heres a page showing Chevy interiors...
I think I can find the length of them somewhere, now that I have an
idea what car it was. Thanks again.
One more thing that video brought to mind was when they were showing
the telephone hook-ups for the President. That is what my uncle used
to do for Bell Telephone (that and wire taps). It reminded me he had a
red phone he said he hooked up for Kennedy`s trip to the area, and he
kept the phone. Had it down his basement for years, I`ll have to ask
him if he still has it.