How many times did the gunman unload?
Walt
loading and unloading his pistol. Nearly all of the witnesses who saw
the gunman ( or gunmen) fleeing the scene described the gunman as
either loading or unloading his / their, pistol / pistols. Now
there's a limit to how many times a pistol requires reloading.... If
there were four shots fired and the pistol had been a SW ,38 revolver,
then after firing four shots the gunman would have swung the cylinder
out of the frame and dumped the two unfired cartridges into his hand
( see Cunningham's testimony)
Then he would have activated the extractor and dumped the four spent
shells into his hand. After that it's a simple matter to put six
fresh live rounds in the cylinder and snap it shut.
So why is it that 99% of the witnesses report seeing the gunman
loading or unloading the gun. There were at least a dozen people
( Benavides, Markham, V.Davis, B.Davis, Callaway, Smith, Burt,
Guinyard, Scroggins, Reynolds, Russell, Patterson,) who claimed they
saw the man / men
loading or unloading the gun.
The fact that so many people saw a man loading or unloading a gun
gives rise to the question......Were these witnesses seeing two
different men? Some described the jacket as light colored some
described it as dark colored....Some said the killer went all the way
to the corner of Patton and Jefferson before turning west on
Jefferson, while others said he turned west into the alley off Patton
between 10th and Jefferson streets.
Here's some excerpts from three of the witnesses and FBI agent
Cortland Cunningham who describes how the gun is loaded and unloaded.
Mr. Benavides.
Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was
in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. Belin.
Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. Benavides.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.
What else did you see?
Mr. Benavides.
Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the
sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He
didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or
six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of
stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.
Mr. BELIN. You saw the man going around the corner headed in what
direction on what street?
Mr. Benavides.
On Patton Street. He was going south.
Mr. Belin.
When you went back, what did you do? First of all, was there anything
up to that time that you saw there or that you did that you haven't
related here that you can think of right now?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I started--I seen him throw the shells and I
started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when
I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.
Mr. Belin.
All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the
shells?
Mr. Benavides.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.
Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. Benavides.
That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.
Mr. Belin.
Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun?
Mr. Benavides.
No; I sure don't.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun
also?
Mr. Benavides.
Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.
Mr. Belin.
You saw him?
Mr. Benavides.
I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in
his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.
Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been
reloading it or something.
Mr. BELIN.
Let me ask you now, I would like to have you relate again the action
of the man with the gun as you saw him now.
Mr. BENAVIDES.
As I saw him, I really---I mean really got a good view of the man
after the bullets were fired, he had just tuned. He was just turning
away. In other words, he was pointing toward the officer, and he had
just turned away to his left, and then he started. There was a big
tree, and it seemed like he started back going to the curb of the
street and into the sidewalk, and then he turned and went down the
sidewalk to, well, until he got in front of the corner house, and then
he turned to the left there and went on down Patton Street.
Mr. Belin.
When he got in front of the corner, when you say he turned to his
left, did he cut across the yard of the house, or did he go clear to
the corner and turn off?
Mr. Benavides.
There is a big bush and he catty-cornered across the yard.
Mr. Belin.
He kitty-cornered across the yard?
Mr. Benavides.
Yes. In other words, he didn't go all the way on the sidewalk. He just
cut across the yard.
Mr. Belin.
Where was he when you saw him throwing shells? Had he already started
across the yard?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he
threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already
cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across.
Mr. Belin.
Now you saw him throw two shells?
Mr. Benavides.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.
You saw where he threw the shells?
Mr. Benavides.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.
Did you later go back in that area and try and find the shells?
Mr. Benavides.
Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew exactly where they
was at, and I went over and picked up one in my hand, not thinking and
I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints off it, so I took out
an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them up with a little
stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome looking shell.
Mr. Belin.
A chrome looking shell?
Mr. Benavides.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.
About how long did it take you to locate the shells once you stared
looking for them?
Mr. Benavides.
Just a minute. I mean not very long at all. Just walked directly to
them.
Mr. Belin.
You saw where he had thrown them?
Mr. BENAVIDES. One of them went down inside of a bush, and the other
one was by the bush.
Mr. Belin.
Did you see him after he turned the corner of the house?
Mr. Benavides.
No, sir.
---------------------------------------------
Mrs Barbara Janette Davis
Mrs. Davis.
I opened the door and held the screen opened.
Mr. Ball.
What did you see?
Mrs. Davis.
Mrs. Markham standing across the street over there, and she was
standing over there and the man was coming across the yard.
Mr. Ball.
A man was coming across what yard?
Mrs. Davis.
My yard.
Mr. Ball.
And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. Davis.
Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much
attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was
emptying the gun.
Mr. Ball.
He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. Davis.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
And he was emptying it?
Mrs. Davis.
It was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it.
Mr. Dulles.
Which hand did he have it?
Mrs. Davis.
Right hand.
Mr. Ball.
To his left palm?
Mrs. Davis.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
Did you see him throw anything away?
Mrs. Davis.
No.
Mr. Ball.
You didn't?
Mrs. Davis.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
What did you do next?
Mrs. Davis.
He looked at her first and looked at me and then smiled and went
around the corner.
----------------------------------------
Virginia Davis
Mr. Belin.
Now you heard the shots. You heard, you say, the second shot and then
what did you do?
Mrs. Davis.
We was already up. We ran to the door.
Mr. Belin.
By we, who do you mean?
Mrs. Davis.
Jeanette and I.
Mr. Belin.
You went to which door?
Mrs. Davis.
The front door.
Mr. Belin.
Then what did you watch this man do?
Mrs. Davis.
We watched him unload the shells out of his gun.
Mr. Belin.
What hand was he holding this gun in?
Mrs. Davis.
In the right.
Mr. Belin.
He was holding the gun in his right hand, if you remember?
Mrs. Davis.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.
What was he doing with his left hand?
Mrs. Davis.
He was emptying the shells in his left hand.
Mr. Belin.
Was the gun broken open, so to speak? In other words. I don't know if
you have ever seen a capgun. When you want to load the capgun, you
have to kind of break it apart on a hinge. Was the gun broken apart
like that, or was the barrel straight?
Mrs. Davis.
It was like the real gun, little one.
Mr. Belin.
What do you mean it was just like?
Mrs. Davis.
It was just as best as I can remember, it was a little pistol, and he
was emptying the shells. Where the shell was coming out, he was
emptying the shells into his left hand.
Mr. Belin.
Did you see what he did with the shells when he emptied them into his
left hand?
Mrs. Davis.
After we, well, he was dropping them on the ground because we found
two.
Mr. Belin.
You said that you found two? Did you see him drop them on the ground
or not?
Mrs. Davis.
No; we didn't see him.
Mr. Belin.
You just saw him emptying shells in his hand?
Mrs. Davis.
Yes.
Mr. Belin.
You didn't actually see what he did with them when he got them in his
hand, did you?
Mrs. Davis.
No, sir.
Mr. Belin.
You are nodding your head no?
Mrs. Davis.
No.
Mr. Belin.
Then what did you see the man do?
Mrs. Davis.
Well, he just cut across. He disappeared from behind the corner of the
house.
Both Davis sisters said basically the same thing.... They assumed
that they saw the gunman emptying his pistol, but in reality they
didn't actually see whether he was removing empty or live shells. He
disappeared from their view around the corner of the house and they
later found two spent cartridges on the Patton street (west) side of
their house.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully loaded with six
bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this ejector-
extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well as the
empty cartridge cases?
Mr. Cunningham.
Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired cartridge is
heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. Then he can
extract the cartridge cases and lead in more.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Could you demonstrate that?
Mr. Cunningham.
If I may have a cartridge, please.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder?
Mr. Cunningham.
Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this morning, I
fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in the
cylinder.
Mr. Eisenberg.
You are now placing an unfired--
Mr. Cunningham.
An unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the cylinder. Now, in a
normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, push in your hand like
this, and tip it up. The unfired cartridge will fall right out into
your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of the cylinder are
naturally larger than the
cartridge you are loading in there for ease of putting them in. When
you fire a cartridge in a revolver, the ease expands as wide as the
cylinder. In other words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there
is an explosion in the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge,
and the terrific pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly
fit the chamber.
Mr. Eisenberg.
I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham tipped the
revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells
remained in.
The Chairman.
Very well.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five
expended shells?
Mr. Cunningham.
yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact
that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can see, you get on
your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter
cases in the .38 Special.
Mr. Eisenberg.
I would like the record to show that Mr. Cunningham extracted the five
expended cartridge eases merely by one push of the ejector rod.
Mr. Cunningham.
Yon won't be able to see it again, but when you eject a cartridge ease
later on for the powder pattern test, I will show that you can have
residues of unburned powder. That is what would happen if you ejected
these cartridge cases in your hand. You would pick up unburned powder,
residues, and partially burned powder.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Mr. Cunningham had ejected five cartridge cases from the revolver into
his hand, and his right hand is now filled with small black particles,
whose composition I am unable to determine.
Representative Ford.
That would happen any time that you did it?
Mr. Cunningham.
Yes, sir; every time you eject them, these particles will come out
from the cylinder into your hand--unburned powder, partially burned
powder, and gunpowder residues.
Bud
Walt wrote:
> There's definitely something wrong with the reports of Tippit's killer
> loading and unloading his pistol.
Ah, another episode of Walt Kookbread, Pet Detective. Walt, no
matter what aspect of this case you look at, you will be confused. My
advice is to stop looking.
> Nearly all of the witnesses who saw
> the gunman ( or gunmen) fleeing the scene described the gunman as
> either loading or unloading his / their, pistol / pistols.
Fiddling with it, messing with it, shaking it. Hard to tell what
the problem Oz was having with it.
> Now
> there's a limit to how many times a pistol requires reloading.... If
> there were four shots fired and the pistol had been a SW ,38 revolver,
> then after firing four shots the gunman would have swung the cylinder
> out of the frame and dumped the two unfired cartridges into his hand
> ( see Cunningham's testimony)
> Then he would have activated the extractor and dumped the four spent
> shells into his hand. After that it's a simple matter to put six
> fresh live rounds in the cylinder and snap it shut.
Actually, it seems he was pulling out the empties individually,
perhaps the extractor only pushed them partially out. Cunningham says
"These are very difficult, by the way, to extract". Oz hands might
have been a little shaky, having killed his first man up close.
> So why is it that 99% of the witnesses report seeing the gunman
> loading or unloading the gun.
There is no way to get that percentage from the amount of witnesses
available.
> There were at least a dozen people
> ( Benavides, Markham, V.Davis, B.Davis, Callaway, Smith, Burt,
> Guinyard, Scroggins, Reynolds, Russell, Patterson,) who claimed they
> saw the man / men
> loading or unloading the gun.
Loading/unloading is a bit specific. Oz could have been sorting the
spent bullets from the spent ones, he didn`t have that many bullets,
and didn`t know how many more people he was going to have to kill that
day.
> The fact that so many people saw a man loading or unloading a gun
> gives rise to the question......Were these witnesses seeing two
> different men?
<snicker> Walt is suspicious that so many people relate basically
the same thing. But then, with the jackey description, he is
suspicious that so many people said different things. And of course,
some witnesses saying Oz was loading/reloading, while others didn`t
mention it at all would also arouse Walt`s suspicion.
> Some described the jacket as light colored some
> described it as dark colored...
Yah, two people looking out the same door at the same person.
Walt
> Walt wrote:
> > There's definitely something wrong with the reports of Tippit's killer
> > loading and unloading his pistol.
>
> Ah, another episode of Walt Kookbread, Pet Detective. Walt, no
> matter what aspect of this case you look at, you will be confused. My
> advice is to stop looking.
>
> > Nearly all of the witnesses who saw
> > the gunman ( or gunmen) fleeing the scene described the gunman as
> > either loading or unloading his / their, pistol / pistols.
>
> Fiddling with it, messing with it, shaking it. Hard to tell what
> the problem Oz was having with it.
>
> > Now
> > there's a limit to how many times a pistol requires reloading.... If
> > there were four shots fired and the pistol had been a SW ,38 revolver,
> > then after firing four shots the gunman would have swung the cylinder
> > out of the frame and dumped the two unfired cartridges into his hand
> > ( see Cunningham's testimony)
> > Then he would have activated the extractor and dumped the four spent
> > shells into his hand. After that it's a simple matter to put six
> > fresh live rounds in the cylinder and snap it shut.
>
> Actually, it seems he was pulling out the empties individually,
> perhaps the extractor only pushed them partially out. Cunningham says
> "These are very difficult, by the way, to extract".
And what did Belin say immediately after that? Didn't he say
something like ..."Notice how easy Mr. Cunningham extracted the
remaining five spent shells"
Oz hands might
> have been a little shaky, having killed his first man up close.
Well Perhaps Oswald would have been...but the Killer smiled at Barbara
and Virginia Davis, and he just shrugged at Ted Callaway.
>
> > So why is it that 99% of the witnesses report seeing the gunman
> > loading or unloading the gun.
>
> There is no way to get that percentage from the amount of witnesses
> available.
It's a figger of speech, meaning the vast majority.....
>
> > There were at least a dozen people
> > ( Benavides, Markham, V.Davis, B.Davis, Callaway, Smith, Burt,
> > Guinyard, Scroggins, Reynolds, Russell, Patterson,) who claimed they
> > saw the man / men
> > loading or unloading the gun.
>
> Loading/unloading is a bit specific. Oz could have been sorting the
> spent bullets from the spent ones, he didn`t have that many bullets,
> and didn`t know how many more people he was going to have to kill that
> day.
>
> > The fact that so many people saw a man loading or unloading a gun
> > gives rise to the question......Were these witnesses seeing two
> > different men?
>
> <snicker> Walt is suspicious that so many people relate basically
> the same thing.
Yes they did relate basically the same thing....all the way from the
curb beside the cab, around to the back of the house, and all the way
up to Jefferson Blvd..... As Cunningham pointed out ....it takes
about 30 seconds to dump the cylinder and reload it. Do you think it
only took the gunman 30 seconds to travel from Tippit's squad car all
the way up tp Jefferson?
But then, with the jackey description, he is
> suspicious that so many people said different things. And of course,
> some witnesses saying Oz was loading/reloading, while others didn`t
> mention it at all would also arouse Walt`s suspicion.
What witness who saw the gunman fleeing did NOT mention him loading or
unloading his gun?
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bud
But the expert called it dificult. He was the one doing it.
Juggling might look easy, until you try it. Another consideration is
whether Cunningham used the same combination of bullet brands as Oz
did. Might be the one particul;ar brand had a tendancy to hang up.
There are many possibilities that could account for Oz taking so long
emptying and reloading the gun.
> Oz hands might
> > have been a little shaky, having killed his first man up close.
>
> Well Perhaps Oswald would have been...but the Killer smiled at Barbara
> and Virginia Davis, and he just shrugged at Ted Callaway.
You think he did these things with his hands?
I think Oz was probably fiddling with the gun all the way up
Jefferson, if most of the witnesses describe similar activity. Where
do you think you can go with this? The witnesses corroborate each
other, and the physical evidence found supports the witnesses.
> But then, with the jackey description, he is
> > suspicious that so many people said different things. And of course,
> > some witnesses saying Oz was loading/reloading, while others didn`t
> > mention it at all would also arouse Walt`s suspicion.
>
> What witness who saw the gunman fleeing did NOT mention him loading or
> unloading his gun?
I`m not looking, Walt. The point was that no matter what the
witnesses said would arouse your suspicions, whether they all said the
same thing (like the loading of the gun), or all said different things
(like describing the jacket), you draw the same idiotiuc conclusions.
I`m this close to throwing you off this case.
> > > � Some described the jacket as light colored some
David Von Pein
>>> "There are many possibilities that could account for Oz taking so long emptying and reloading the gun." <<<
With the main one (by far) being the fact that the empty shells had a
tendency to "bulge" out and stick in Oswald's particular S&W revolver,
making the empties harder to remove.
Therefore, sometimes a "shaking" action was required in order to
remove the empty cartridge casings from LHO's revolver (just exactly
the type of "shaking the gun" activity that the two Davis girls said
Oswald was engaged in on 11/22/63 as he fled the scene of the Tippit
murder).
BARBARA DAVIS -- "...He had it open and was shaking it."
VIRGINIA DAVIS -- "The man had a revolver...and was shaking the shells
out of it."
Walt
> >>> "There are many possibilities that could account for Oz taking so long emptying and reloading the gun." <<<
>
> With the main one (by far) being the fact that the empty shells had a
> tendency to "bulge" out and stick in Oswald's particular S&W revolver,
> making the empties harder to remove.
>
> Therefore, sometimes a "shaking" action was required in order to
> remove the empty cartridge casings from LHO's revolver (just exactly
> the type of "shaking the gun" activity that the two Davis girls said
> Oswald was engaged in on 11/22/63 as he fled the scene of the Tippit
> murder).
Yer an idiot.....If a spent shell sticks so tight that the extractor
won't remove it, you could shake it until it turned to salt, and the
shell would still be stuck. You really need to learn a little about
guns .....perhaps then you won't make such stupid statements. ( well,
we can hope can't we)
David Von Pein
>>> "If a spent shell sticks so tight that the extractor won't remove it, you could shake it until it turned to salt, and the shell would still be stuck." <<<
"Upon detonation, the shells would expand--sometimes split--and
become wedged in the cylinder chamber. The resulting snugness
prevented some of the shells from ejecting when the single action
plunger was used. All of the cartridges fired in Oswald's revolver,
including those allegedly found at the Tippit scene, produced bulged
casings." -- Dale K. Myers; Page 258 of "With Malice" (c.1998)
==========
CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM -- "In a normal way, you would hit the cylinder
release, push in your hand like this, and tip it up. The unfired
cartridge will fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the
chambers of the cylinder are naturally larger than the cartridge you
are loading in there for ease of putting them in. When you fire a
cartridge in a revolver, the case expands as wide as the cylinder. In
other words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an
explosion in the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and
the terrific pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit
the chamber."
MEL EISENBERG -- "I would like the record to show that when Mr.
Cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the
five expended shells remained in."
==========
CUNNINGHAM -- "These {expended shells} are very difficult, by the
way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been
rechambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a
little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38
Special."
==========
EISENBERG -- "And in particular you say the cartridge cases from this
particular weapon show a substantial amount of bulge?"
CUNNINGHAM -- "They do. As you brought to my attention, there is a
crack in the one case."
Walt
I assume that the fact that a case expands in the chamber is news to
you
(Congratulations... you're learning, so you're not beyond hope)
However it not news to me or anybody who has ever done any reloading
of fired brass. All cases expand in the chamer when the are fired.
If the gun involved is a .38 SW revolver and the extractor won't
remove them then all the shaking in the world isn't going to help.
The extractor is a mechaical device that makes physical contact under
the rim of the spent shell and actually lifts the shell out of the
chamber. Shaking is merely a non contact action that would accomplish
NOTHING. HOWEVER if the gun was some other brand of .38 it's
entirely possible that shaking would facilitate the COMPLETE removal
of the spent shell. If the gun was a SINGLE action revolver like a
Ruger, or Colt, for example then the shells are extracted one at a
time and not as a group like the S&W. The shell doesn't always drop
clear when the shell is extracted from a single action revolver
( particularly if the gun is old and worn) and shaking it will often
cause the cylinder to rotate enough to completely release a stuck
shell.
So are you now proposing that the killer wasn't firing a S&W
revolver??
I've pointed that out a long time ago....Thanks for your support.
David Von Pein
>>> "Shaking is merely a non contact action that would accomplish NOTHING." <<<
So what?
Even if you are 100% correct about this, it doesn't mean Oswald WASN'T
ATTEMPTING TO SHAKE SHELLS OUT OF HIS REVOLVER ANYWAY.
Oswald, undoubtedly, was attempting (any way he possibly could) to get
rid of the spent shells left behind in his gun's cylinder/chamber
after he had just fired four or five bullets at Patrolman Tippit.
Oswald, in addition to the "shaking" method, probably was also
continuing to utilize the plunger as well, in order to get the damn
shells out of the gun so he could reload in a hurry.
Now, whether the "shaking" method employed on Tenth Street by Oswald
was, in fact, effective or not is largely immaterial to this
discussion. The fact remains that the gunman (IDed by many people as
Lee H. Oswald) was "shaking" his gun in order to try to dislodge some
stuck cartridge cases from it (in an obvious attempt to try to quickly
reload the weapon to use on other potential victims after he left the
Tippit murder scene).
And this "shaking the gun" activity (plus the fact that all of the
spent shell casings were found near the corner of 10th Street & Patton
Avenue after the shooting, instead of being found right next to
Tippit's police car) provides concrete proof that the ONE AND ONLY GUN
that was used to kill Patrolman J.D. Tippit of the Dallas Police
Department on 11/22/63 was NOT AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON.
>>> "So are you now proposing that the killer wasn't firing a S&W revolver??" <<<
You're certifiably kooky.
>>> "I've pointed that out a long time ago....Thanks for your support." <<<
And thanks for showing yourself to be a kook (yet again).