DID FRAZIER REALLY SEE THE PACKAGE ON HIS BACK SEAT ?
Gil Jesus
edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon.
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php
Sunrise on the morning of November 22, 1963 occurred at 7:03 AM, about
15 minutes before Oswald showed up at the Frazier home..
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=70&month=11&year=1963&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1
Most states require drivers to have their headlights on from 1/2 hour
after sunrise to 1/2 hour after sunset, especially on days where the
weather is bad.
On the morning of November 22, 1963 it was rainy.
AND IT WAS DARK.
So dark that Frazier had to use his headlights on the way to work.
And because he had an old car with an old battery, he had to charge
his battery when he got to the parking lot of the TSBD:
Mr. FRAZIER. I was letting my engine run and getting to charge up my
battery,.... ( 2 H 227-228 )
Frazier monitored his Generator gauge for a few minutes before turning
the engine off:
Mr. FRAZIER. ....I was watching the gages and watched the car for a
few minutes before I cut it off. ( 2 H 228 )
This is all evidence that Frazier used his headlights on the way to
work and because of the voltage draw on the battery, he needed to
charge the battery when he got to work.
Frazier needed to use his headlights because it was DARK outside.
The combination of the late sunrise and the dismal weather conditions
made it unlikely that he saw any package on the back seat of his car.
It also explains why he could be so wrong in his description of HOW
Oswald carried the package into the building, something that has been
debunked time and time again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDWaOjFqgHk
Not only is Frazier's description not supported by the physical
evidence, it was physically impossible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_-5L_JNF6g
I believe that it was too dark that morning for Frazier to have seen
any package on his back seat.
Steve
> Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper
> edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon.
>
> http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php
>
> Sunrise on the morning of November 22, 1963 occurred at 7:03 AM, about
> 15 minutes before Oswald showed up at the Frazier home..
>
The lengths you bunch of nuts will go to get away from Oswald bringing
the rifle to work with him on the morning of 11/22/63 is hilarious!!
This desperate attempt possibly takes the cake Giltard.
Next you will provide "evidence" that Kennedy really wasn't shot that
day at all. Better get busy with your "research" Giltard.
I would be curious to read how many of the nuts agree with this latest
"Flavor of the Month" theory. Now THAT would be interesting.
Walt
> Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper
> edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon.
>
> http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php
>
> Sunrise on the morning of November 22, 1963 occurred at 7:03 AM, about
> 15 minutes before Oswald showed up at the Frazier home..
>
So you don't believe that Frazier could have showed the FBI how much
of the back seat was covered by the package? Frazier showed the FBI
how much of the seat was covered by the paper sack and they measured
that length at 28 inches.
I believe Frazier did see the sack ...and he knew that it could NOT
have held that rifle.... Have you not noticed that the authorities
never asked him if he thought the rifle could have been in that paper
sack? Do you suppose that they were smart enough to refrain from
asking that question??
David Von Pein
>>> "The combination of the late sunrise and the dismal weather conditions made it unlikely that he [Buell Wesley Frazier] saw any package on the back seat of his car. It also explains why he could be so wrong in his description of HOW Oswald carried the package into the building, something that has been debunked time and time again. Not only is Frazier's description not supported by the physical evidence, it was physically impossible. .... I believe that it was too dark that morning for Frazier to have seen any package on his back seat." <<<
So, what are you saying here, Gil? Are you saying that you want to
pretend that Oswald had NO LARGE PACKAGE AT ALL with him on November
22nd? Is that what you're implying?
Because even if we were to assume that your retarded theory is correct
when you said this (and probably without even having the decency to
blush a little when you wrote it)....
"It [is] unlikely that he saw any package on the back seat of
his car."
....There's still the fact that Frazier said he saw Oswald pick up the
package out of the back seat and then carry it into the Book
Depository Building:
"I saw him [Oswald] go in the back door at the Loading Dock of
the building that we work in, and he still had the package under his
arm." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; Via 11/22/63 Affidavit [CE2003; linked
below]
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0114a.htm
Plus: There is Linnie Mae Randle. She saw Oswald carrying a large-ish
package too. And she even said she saw Oswald put the package into the
back seat of her brother's [Wesley's] car.
As for the debate about whether Randle could have physically seen
Oswald place the package in Frazier's car, that is a subject that came
up as recently as October of 2009, when I offered up this possibility:
"I certainly think it's possible [that Linnie Mae could have
seen LHO put the bag in the car], given the amount of space between
the slats in the carport (as seen in the photo below):
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10897&relPageId=17
"I certainly don't think Linnie Mae was lying at all. She
possibly HEARD more than she SAW. I.E., She peeks out the kitchen door
and HEARS the person who she just saw walk toward her brother's car
(Lee Oswald). It's obvious that the person at Frazier's car at that
point in time was the person Randle just saw cross the street
(Oswald).
"Randle then HEARS the door of Frazier's car being opened. It's
also possible that she gets enough of a glimpse of Oswald through the
slats of the carport to see at least a portion of Oswald as he places
the bag in the car.
"So, the combination of HEARING what Oswald was doing at the car
and very likely SEEING a little bit of Oswald through the slats was
certainly enough information, IMO, for Mrs. Linnie Mae Randle to
reasonably testify in the following manner [quoting Randle]: "He
opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the
package down, so I closed the door." " -- DVP; 10/21/2009
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3eff31c3d5517b90
---------
It's very strange to have a conspiracy theorist say something like
this:
"I believe that it was too dark that morning for Frazier to have
seen any package on his back seat." -- Gil J. Jesus; 02/16/2010
It's not only strange because of the obvious fact that such a
statement is completely wrong, but it's also strange from the
standpoint that now Gil Jesus has no choice but to toss in the trash
one of the things that so many conspiracy theorists have loved to prop
up as definitive "proof" to show that Lee Harvey Oswald could not
possibly have carried his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle into the TSBD on
the morning of November 22, 1963 -- with that so-called "proof" being
Frazier's estimated length of the brown paper bag that was resting on
the back seat of Wesley's car, which is a paper bag that Gil Jesus has
now decided that Wesley Frazier could not possibly have seen as it
laid on the back seat.
I have a feeling that Gil Jesus now has a desire to crawl into bed
with James DiEugenio on this "paper bag" topic. Jim D., as you may
already know, has recently voiced his belief that Lee Oswald didn't
have ANY large bag with him at all on the morning of November 22nd.
Jim thinks that both Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle were coerced and
strong-armed by the evil DPD and FBI into making up their respective
stories about having seen Oswald carrying a large paper bag that
morning.*
* = Even though the cops/FBI were apparently too stupid to "coerce"
Frazier and Randle into saying that the size of the make-believe bag
was big enough to hold Oswald's Carcano.
Go figure the idiocy and internal illogic of this silly theory --- The
authorities intimidate BOTH Wes Frazier and Linnie Randle into making
up a false story about seeing Oswald with a large paper sack. But
those same authorities then apparently wanted BOTH Frazier and Randle
to say that the MAKE-BELIEVE BAG was TOO SMALL to contain the item
that the cops need to have placed inside that make-believe bag!
Hilarious!
But, as you may also know by now, James DiEugenio has gone completely
off the deep end regarding several matters dealing with the JFK
assassination (and this "Frazier/Randle/Paper Bag" topic is certainly
one of them).
Also keep in mind that DiEugenio is a member of the kooky "Anybody But
Oswald" fraternity too (he thinks Oswald was totally innocent of
shooting both JFK and J.D. Tippit), which certainly doesn't aid his
reputation as a "reasonable" researcher regarding President Kennedy's
murder.
Are you trying to follow in DiEugenio's "There Was No Bag At All"
footsteps, Gil?
http://groups.google.com/group/Reclaiming-History/browse_thread/thread/863ee417ecb1633f
---------
ADDENDUM:
Here's something else for Gil Jesus to consider:
Even if it was still fairly dark outside, why couldn't the overhead
(dome) light in Wesley Frazier's car have illuminated the interior of
the vehicle enough for Frazier to have gotten a glimpse of the paper
bag that Oswald had placed in the back seat?
I'll admit, I haven't done any specific research on Frazier's 1953
Chevrolet four-door sedan that he owned on 11/22/63, and I'll also
admit that I could be completely wrong about this "overhead light"
issue, but if I were to guess, I'd say that it is certainly quite
likely that that particular car was equipped with some kind of an
interior light, which, of course, would have been illuminated when
either one of the front doors was open (if the bulb wasn't burned out,
of course). Almost all cars have such a light in them, even older
models, right?
In David Wolper's 1964 documentary, "Four Days In November", Frazier
re-enacted his November 22nd movements for the movie camera, as well
as providing some voice-over narration for a few scenes in the film.
Frazier said [in Part 3 of the video series linked below]: "As we were
getting in the car, I saw the package":
http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/01/four-days-in-november.html
DVP inference being: The interior light could have been on when
Frazier saw the package, making it easier to see anything that was
lying on the back seat.
---------
A FINAL CONSPIRACY-BASHING THOUGHT:
If Gil listens to a few more of Jim DiEugenio's frequent appearances
on Black Op Radio, I'm sure we'll be seeing a thread authored by Gil
pretty soon which suggests that both Marrion Baker and Roy Truly were
spineless liars and cover-up agents who were merely being manipulated
by the evil United States Government. (DiEugenio, you see, thinks
there's something fishy and suspicious about the stories of both Baker
and Truly regarding their lunchroom encounter with Oswald on
11/22/63.)
In other words -- If a conspiracy kook mangles and distorts the
evidence long enough, those distortions and misrepresentations are
bound to rub off on a few more conspiracy kooks.
Right, Gil?
timstter
> Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper
> edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon.
>
> http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php
>
> Sunrise on the morning of November 22, 1963 occurred at 7:03 AM, about
> 15 minutes before Oswald showed up at the Frazier home..
>
LOL! This must be some of the weakest JFK-CT reasoning I have ever
seen applied to this case.
This fellow, Gil Jesus, is QUITE delusional.
Hey Verm! Physical evidence, like the finding of the actual bag with
Oswald's prints on it, trumps your half baked *analysis* of the
situation.
GAME OVAH, BALD GOOSE!
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
mucher1
DVP's analysis, OTOH, seems to be spot on. It's amusing to see Gilly
undermine a standard CT argument (predicated on the accuracy of
Frazier's observations re: length of paper bag) in an effort to
impress Black Oops "buddy" Jim DiEugenio.
drummist1965
> Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper
> edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon.
>
> http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php
>
> Sunrise on the morning of November 22, 1963 occurred at 7:03 AM, about
> 15 minutes before Oswald showed up at the Frazier home..
>
And you agree with Walt that Von Pein needs "help"? *YOU* need
help!
Walt
Hey Friar... I once thought that you were somewhat intelligent and
honest, and I had some respect for you, but I'm rapidly changing my
evaluation .....because of these kinds of STUPID statements,......."
Physical evidence, like the finding of the actual bag with Oswald's
prints on it,"
I thought that you were smart enough to know that there is NO WAY to
be absolutely certain that the bag you're referring to to is "THE" bag
that oswald carried in the rain that morning. In fact the bag that
you're referring to (CE 626) probably is NOT the bag that Oswald
carried....
A) It just doesn't look like a piece of brown paper that has been out
in the rain.
B) The only two people who actually saw the bag that Oswald carried
said that CE 626 was much longer than the bag that Oswald carried.
C) The FBI was unable to find ANY evidence that the disassembled
rifle was ever in that bag.
D) Photos of CE 626 show that the open end of the bag has been sealed
by folding the end of the bag back which left the bag creased across
the end of the sack. The creases show that the open end had been
closed by folding the end of the bag to form a "handle". This folding
reduced the usable length of the bag to 32 inches, and the rifle could
not be redused to less than 35 inches.
>
> GAME OVAH, BALD GOOSE!
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Brennan
> Sydney, Australia
> *Newsgroup(s) Commentator*- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -