Vincent Bugliosi Vs. Cyril Wecht (Radio Debate)(From June 14, 2007)
David Von Pein
Vincent Bugliosi engages in a live debate with Dr. Cyril Wecht on
Pittsburgh's WPTT-Radio on June 14, 2007.....
There are two segments to this radio debate, as Vince and Cyril do
battle over the Single-Bullet Theory:
First Segment (43 minutes):
http://www.pluggd.com/episode/show/doug_hoerth_show_6_14_07_hour_2
Second Segment (only the first 12 minutes have Bugliosi & Wecht):
http://www.pluggd.com/episode/show/doug_hoerth_show_6_14_07_hour_3
============================
A couple of comments re. the very interesting Bugliosi/Wecht debate
linked above:
Why in the world Mr. Bugliosi didn't mention the fact that the test
bullets fired for the WC at Edgewood Arsenal were NOT FIRED THROUGH
TWO BODIES OR ANIMALS (to properly simulate the SBT flight path) is
somewhat of a large oversight on Vincent's part.
Plus: When speaking on the topic of "Has The SBT Ever Been
Duplicated?" -- Vince, IMO, should have also mentioned the Discovery
Channel program ("Beyond The Magic Bullet") from 2004, which did,
indeed, properly simulate the shooting by firing a MCC/WC bullet
THROUGH TWO BODIES, with the results being similar in character to the
SBT, including the test bullet emerging in a COMPLETELY-UNFRAGMENTED
CONDITION. Here's that test bullet:
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/6735.jpg
I don't know why Vince didn't mention these important factors after
Wecht started talking about how the WC test bullets were "mushroomed"
and more flattened, etc.; but Vince should have talked about those
things I mentioned to bolster his pro-SBT argument substantially.
Here are some related SBT comments (culled from my review of
Bugliosi's book, "Reclaiming History")......
===================
CHAPTER 4 (63 PAGES) -- "THE MOST FAMOUS HOME MOVIE EVER, THE 'MAGIC
BULLET', AND THE SINGLE-BULLET THEORY":
DVP: Vincent Bugliosi's Single-Bullet Theory timeline has me puzzled a
little bit. I, myself, believe beyond all reasonable doubt that the
specific "SBT" point-of-impact Zapruder Film frame can be
established....and that frame is almost certainly Z224 (and not
"somewhere between Z frames 210 and 222", as Mr. Bugliosi says in his
book on page 463).
Although, VB says in an endnote on the CD-ROM (on page 25 of the
notes) that the SBT shot occurs "at Z223-Z224"; so I'm not quite sure
which exact Z-Film frame Vince totally endorses, if any.
Plus, on pages 325 to 327 of the CD's endnotes, Bugliosi acknowledges
the very real possibility (via Dr. John Lattimer's 1994 "lapel bulge"
tests) that a single bullet could have passed through both Kennedy and
Connally at Z224.
Vince actually mentions a three-frame range of Zapruder frames in this
"lapel" regard, which seems a little strange to me....but at least VB
admits the possibility of the bullet striking at the correct frame
(IMO) of Z224, when he says this on endnote page #325: "A bulging of
the right lapel of the governor's suit coat may pinpoint the moment
Governor Connally is hit to be at Z222-224".
Another oddity is that even though Vince supports a "Z223-Z224" and/or
a "Z222-Z224" SBT hit at various stages in the book's endnotes, in
other portions of the main text he also seems to be endorsing the
notion that Governor Connally was reacting to already having been hit
by a gunshot as early as Z222, which I totally disagree with.
I can't detect any such Connally "reaction" at Z222 at all. The first
firm "reaction" on Connally's behalf comes later, at Z225, just after
having been struck at Z224....again, that's in my own personal opinion
on the matter.
However, there's another indication in the book that VB advocates the
exact same frame for the SBT that I, too, endorse (Z224). That occurs
on page 40, when Vince says the second shot (the SBT shot) occurs "3.5
seconds" after the first shot which missed the limousine, a first shot
which, elsewhere in the book, VB says comes at Z-Film frame #160.*
And the only frame that is precisely "3.5" seconds after Z160 is Z224
(given the "round-off" mathematics that VB is utilizing on pages 40
and 41 and Mr. Zapruder's camera speed of 18.3 frames-per-second).
* = A "First-Shot Footnote" -- I completely agree with VB's "Z160
first shot" timing. However, I disagree with him on the exact scenario
of how bystander James Tague was wounded by this first bullet fired by
Lee Oswald on November 22.
Vince thinks the probability is high that the Z160 missed shot hit the
concrete on Elm Street and then the bullet (or a portion thereof) went
on to strike yet another hunk of street pavement over on Main Street,
which resulted in a bullet fragment or concrete fragment slightly
injuring Tague's cheek. (See page 471.)
I just cannot quite believe such a scenario myself. I think it's much
more likely that Oswald's first shot struck a portion of the nearby
oak tree, with the bullet then probably fragmenting (at least
partially), sending the majority of the lead portion of the bullet out
to Main Street, resulting in Tague's wounding, while the metal jacket
of the missile possibly struck the pavement on Elm near JFK's car,
resulting in the "sparks" that a few witnesses reported observing.
But, of course, realistically, the only thing that can be done with
respect to any "missed" shot is to simply guess about what happened,
since no physical bullet was recovered with regard to the shot that
missed the limousine's victims.
Another possibility concerning Tague's injury is that he was struck by
a fragment of the bullet that hit JFK in the head (shot #3 from
Oswald's rifle). I, however, don't like that theory much either, since
that bullet would have probably been pretty much spent and out of gas
by the time it travelled the many additional yards from the
President's car to Main Street to meet Tague.
Back to the subject of the SBT:
Many things begin to happen to Governor Connally beginning at Zapruder
frame #224 -- TOO many things, in my opinion, to believe that the SBT
bullet passed through both Connally and JFK at any other time.
Obviously, Vince is simply placing on the table ALL potential "SBT"
possibilities throughout his immense publication. I, however, would
have preferred more consistency in this book with regard to the timing
of the SBT bullet strike.
But Bugliosi evidently feels that the precise "impact" frame cannot be
definitively established on the Zapruder Film for the SBT shot. But I
believe it can be established on the film, via John Connally's sudden
"right shoulder drop" at exactly Z224. .....
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/4540.gif
But even with a bit of ambiguity in his SBT timeline, at least Mr.
Bugliosi knows (as do I) that a "Single-Bullet Theory" Z-Film frame
DOES exist somewhere within Mr. Zapruder's 26-second home movie.
The exact moment when the controversial "SBT" shot struck John Kennedy
and John Connally has been debated for many, many years, of course.
Even the two major U.S. Government inquiries into the assassination
had differing views on this important matter, with the 1964 Warren
Commission offering up a 15-frame range of Zapruder Film frames when
they said the single bullet struck JFK and Connally (Z210 to Z225).
But the House Select Committee in 1977-1978 placed the SBT strike at
approximately Z190, which, by the way, is the timing that was
seemingly endorsed by Bugliosi at the TV Docu-Trial in which he served
as prosecutor in 1986; although I strongly suspect that the reason for
such a VB endorsement in '86 was due to the fact that Bugliosi's main
"SBT" witness/expert at the London mock trial (Cecil Kirk) was a
member of the HSCA panel, which itself endorsed the absurdly-early
Z190 SBT timeline.
So, as we can see from the pages of "Reclaiming History", Vincent T.
Bugliosi, in the intervening years, has gotten closer to the Z224 SBT
hit.
It turns out that I disagree (for the most part) with Vince with
respect to the exact timing of the Single-Bullet Theory, but certainly
not by very much; so I'm not inclined to call a "2-frame" difference
of opinion a major or all-important disagreement.
And, as I mentioned, there are references in this book that seem to
indicate VB's possible belief in a "Z223-Z224-Z225" SBT hit too (which
will no doubt have conspiracists attacking Bugliosi's credibility and
lack of consistency throughout the book on this "SBT timing" point,
which, indeed, appears to be warranted criticism when you read the
whole tome, plus the endnotes).
However, in my opinion, as stated previously, the most important point
is the fact that Vince Bugliosi supports the SBT, regardless of
exactly when on the Z-Film the SBT is occurring. And this SBT support
is due in large part to plain ol' common sense....because the sum
total of all the evidence in this case makes the Single-Bullet Theory
a virtual certainty.
Or, to use Vincent's own words (from page 482 of this book) -- "The
overwhelming evidence is that whenever Kennedy and Connally were hit,
or first reacted to being hit, they were both struck by the same
bullet." -- V. Bugliosi
~~~~~~~
"When you can establish the single-bullet theory by reference to
evidence other than the {Zapruder} film, you necessarily know that the
film itself cannot, by definition, show something else. .... Since we
KNOW Kennedy and Connally were not hit by separate bullets, we know,
before we even look at the film, that it CANNOT show otherwise." --
VB; Pages 457-458 of "RH"
~~~~~~~
"With respect to the second shot fired in Dealey Plaza, the "single-
bullet THEORY" is an obvious misnomer. Though in its incipient stages
it was but a theory, the indisputable evidence is that it is now a
proven FACT, a wholly supported conclusion. .... And no sensible mind
that is also informed can plausibly make the case that the bullet that
struck President Kennedy in the upper right part of his back did not
go on to hit Governor Connally." -- VB; Pages 489-490 of "RH"
===================
David Von Pein
Indeed. Also....
If I could ever get Vince Bugliosi to look at this Z-Film clip over &
over a few times, I truly think he might join me in the "Z224" SBT
camp.....
http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/222-262%20full-small.gif
And one of the main reasons (possibly THE main reason) I think I could
convince Vince of a circa Z224 SBT timeline is the ultra-fast arm
movement of John Connally, which doesn't even begin until about Z226,
which correlates much better with a Z224 SBT hit than it does with a
circa Z210 SBT strike.
I ask:
What are the odds of Connally being hit by the SBT bullet as early as
Z210, but not having the right arm of JBC (the same arm containing the
wrist that was fractured by a bullet during the shooting) moving up
and down VERY rapidly until Z226-Z230?
If Vince is right re. a Z210 SBT hit.....the bullet goes through
Connally's wrist at circa Z210, but his injured wrist/arm doesn't do
its little "Hat Dance" until almost a full one second later, starting
at Z226.
Yes, I know it's still less than ONE single second in real time....but
I'm going to maintain that that one second is still too long an
interval for the involuntary wrist/arm movement if he was hit at Z210.
It's just too long of an involuntary delay (and we're certainly
looking at an INVOLUNTARY arm movement here, not a voluntary one
controlled by Connally himself):
http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/222-262%20full-small.gif
In addition:
There's the in-unison movements of the right arms of both victims here
at Z225-Z226:
http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/225-226%20Full.gif
The SBT occurs at Z224. I'd bet Arlen Specter's next paycheck on
it. ;)
==============
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/88cd14ec6de230eb
==============
tomnln
JBC said he was hit between 213-234>> Volume IVage 145.
JBC's Dr's said he was hit at 236>>> Volume IV pagte 114.
The hole in the jacket was No where near the lapel>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/single_bullet.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1183788759....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>> "This Z210 {SBT timeline} error could really be exploited, at least on
>>>> TV, with Dale Myers' animation showing the view from the sniper's nest
>>>> at frame 210." <<<
>
> Indeed. Also....
>
> If I could ever get Vince Bugliosi to look at this Z-Film clip over &
> over a few times, I truly think he might join me in the "Z224" SBT
> camp.....
>
> http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/222-262%20full-small.gif
>
> And one of the main reasons (possibly THE main reason) I think I could
> convince Vince of a circa Z224 SBT timeline is the ultra-fast arm
> movement of John Connally, which doesn't even begin until about Z226,
> which correlates much better with a Z224 SBT hit than it does with a
> circa Z210 SBT strike.
>
> I ask:
>
> What are the odds of Connally being hit by the SBT bullet as early as
> Z210, but not having the right arm of JBC (the same arm containing the
> wrist that was fractured by a bullet during the shooting) moving up
> and down VERY rapidly until Z226-Z230?
>
> If Vince is right re. a Z210 SBT hit.....the bullet goes through
> Connally's wrist at circa Z210, but his injured wrist/arm doesn't do
> it's little "Hat Dance" until almost a full one second later, starting
> at Z226.
>
> Yes, I know it's still less than ONE single second in real time....but
> I'm going to maintain that that one second is still too long an
> interval for the involuntary wrist/arm movement if he was hit at Z210.
> It's just too long of an involuntary delay (and we're certainly
> looking at an INVOLUNTARY arm movement here, not a voluntary one
> controlled by Connally himself):
>
> http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/222-262%20full-small.gif
>
> In addition:
>
> There's the in-unison right-arm movements of both victims here:
tomnln
JBC said he was hit between 213-234>> Volume IVage 145.
JBC's Dr's said he was hit at 236>>> Volume IV pagte 114.
The hole in the jacket was No where near the lapel>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/single_bullet.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1183789113....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
>>> "Others have suggested that the bullet only went in about an inch or so and then stopped." <<<
LOL.
Soft flesh...
A bullet moving at thousands of feet per second (or did the pro
killers use a toy gun/slingshot?)...
No bony structures hit inside Kennedy's neck or back...
Voila! The bullet miraculously acts as if it hit an invisible brick
wall!
And then that bullet (naturally) disappears off the face of the planet
(EVEN THOUGH IT WENT INTO KENNEDY BUT DID NOT GO THROUGH HIM, per this
idiotic theory).
If THAT'S not a "magic bullet", what WOULD qualify as one?
>>> "Others have suggested that the bullet lost all its energy and fell out of the throat into his clothes." <<<
LOL reprise.
Magic Bullet #2.
IOW -- Believe anything and everything except what's most likely to be
true -- i.e., the SBT.
Pathetic. As always.