The Shooting Timeline (And The Crazy "5.6-Second" Myth)
David Von Pein
Date: 09/17/2007
====================
A CTer SAID:
>>> "DAVE, WHAT IS THE PROPER "LN" ANSWER TO THIS? ... FROM PAT SPEER RE. THE 1967 CBS RE-ENACTMENT ---- "Of the 12 first attempts, only 1 shooter was able to make two hits in less than 5.6 seconds. Of the 43 total attempts, moreover, these well-seasoned shooters were able to replicate Oswald's purported feat--2 hits in less than 5.6 seconds--just 4 times. If the Warren Commission had conducted similar tests, they would almost certainly have concluded that Oswald needed more than 5.6 seconds to fire the shots, and that either the first shot or last shot missed. But this was not to be." " <<<
DVP SAYS:
That's a very easy one --- Oswald very likely had 8.36 seconds (total)
to get the job accomplished:
Shot 1 --- Z160 (approx.), per the best evidence, IMO. Missed shot.
Shot 2 --- Z224 (SBT).
Shot 3 --- Z313 (Head Shot).
Total time --- 8.36 seconds. Plenty of time to fire three shots, and
only ONE with deadly (head) accuracy. And Oswald actually, per this
timeline, had MORE time between shots 2 and 3 than he did between
shots 1 and 2 (an important factor). Which means that he had almost
FIVE full seconds to work the bolt and re-aim again for Shot #3 after
the SBT shot.
On a related note -- I enjoyed this video.....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=62gvoKyODu4
The above video is merely from a comedy program, yes, but it gets its
"Oswald Could Do It" points across pretty well, IMO (especially
considering the video clip lasts less than three minutes).
Also, let me add this very important point re. Pat Speer's
presentation (and his MISrepresentation of the WR/WC).......
Pat said this:
"If the Warren Commission had conducted similar tests, they would
almost certainly have concluded that Oswald needed more than 5.6
seconds to fire the shots, and that either the first shot or last shot
missed. But this was not to be."
But the above paragraph is dead-wrong and totally misrepresents the
bottom-line conclusions reached by the Warren Commission with respect
to the "timeline of the gunshots" issue.
And all a person needs to do to know that Pat has skewed the facts in
this regard is to turn to page #117 of the Warren Report, and you'll
find these exact words printed there:
"Based on the evidence analyzed, the Commission has concluded that the
shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally
were fired from the sixth-floor window at the southeast corner of the
Texas School Book Depository Building. Two bullets probably caused all
the wounds suffered by President Kennedy and Governor Connally. Since
the preponderance of the evidence indicated that three shots were
fired, the Commission concluded that one shot probably missed the
Presidential limousine and its occupants, and that the three shots
were fired in a time period ranging from approximately 4.8 to in
excess of 7 seconds." -- WCR; Pg. 117
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0071a.htm
In short -- the nutty "5.6-second" timeline theory is a conspiracy-
flavored myth that (for some reason) refuses to die.
Walt
> Subject: The 1967 CBS Shooters
> Date: 09/17/2007
>
> ====================
>
> A CTer SAID:
>
> >>> "DAVE, WHAT IS THE PROPER "LN" ANSWER TO THIS? ... FROM PAT SPEER RE. THE 1967 CBS RE-ENACTMENT ---- "Of the 12 first attempts, only 1 shooter was able to make two hits in less than 5.6 seconds. Of the 43 total attempts, moreover, these well-seasoned shooters were able to replicate Oswald's purported feat--2 hits in less than 5.6 seconds--just 4 times. If the Warren Commission had conducted similar tests, they would almost certainly have concluded that Oswald needed more than 5.6 seconds to fire the shots, and that either the first shot or last shot missed. But this was not to be." " <<<
>
> DVP SAYS:
>
> That's a very easy one --- Oswald very likely had 8.36 seconds (total)
> to get the job accomplished:
>
> Shot 1 --- Z160 (approx.), per the best evidence, IMO. Missed shot.
WHOA THERE you ornery SOB.... I say WHOA!!..... Lets get the facts
straight and then se if you can do simple aritmetic.
James Altgens snapped a pic that shows JFK reacting to being hit a few
seconds before the pic was snapped. The W.C. said that J.A. snapped
that photo at Z 255. Phil Willis also snapped a pic just as the
first shot was fired. The W.C. found that P.W, snapped his shutter at
Z 210. So if the first shot struck JFK at Z225, and the last shot
struck JFK at Z 313 a total of 88 frames were exposed in Zapruder's
camera. Since the camera ran at 18.3 frames per second it's
elementary that there was 4.8 seconds between the time the first
shot... STRUCK... STRUCK and the last shot STRUCK. We can know
precisely when the last shot struck because JFK's head explodes at Z
313. We can't be that precise concerning the first shot but Altgen's
photo shows JFK reacting to the first shot, and the W.C. said that
J.A.'s photo corresponds to Z 255. If JFK took 2.5 seconds to react to
being hit in the throat then the first shot could have STRUCK around Z
210 which corresponds to what Phil Willis said. P.W. said he took a
photo just as the first shot was fired, and there were NO SHOTS fired
prior to that photo. The W.C. found that P.W.'s photo was snapped at
Z210.
Therefore any way you slice it the the total lapsed time for the
shooting was no longer than 5.6.seconds.
Now take your B.S. and go try to peddle it to someone who doesn't know
the FACTS.
Walt
David Von Pein
Walt The Mega-Kook is the same nutcase who seems to know these
"FACTS" (among many, MANY others almost as idiotic):
1. JFK was hit (neck-thru-back) at Z161 approx.
2. Brennan saw a west-end shooter and (incredibly) it took a kook
named Walt to figure out this fact, per Brennan's own WC testimony, no
less!! ONLY Walt could see this basic fact within the words of
Brennan's testimony!
3. The Walker shooting was only a "staged assassination attempt". No
harm; no foul.
4. Oswald very likely never shot Tippit either. (This is the item that
cements ANY person who believes it as a "Mega-Kook for life".
So, if a person thinks he could possibly get a reading of the true
FACTS from Walter, that person is residing in Fairy Tale Land (or in
Kooksville...one or the other).
aeffects
> Subject: The 1967 CBS Shooters
> Date: 09/17/2007
>
> ====================
>
> A CTer SAID:
David, making up questions then quoting yourself with the answer, is a
bit twadry, actually foolish -- its show the depths you *loony* lone
nuts will go when your back is to the wall.... think evidence, son!
We know it hurts..... gird those loins, pucker up and find a good book
to read, I can just imagine your BP!
David Von Pein
remarks I sometimes post don't come from THIS forum, it doesn't mean
I've "made them up".
Or was that unfounded accusation merely an ASSUMPTION on your part,
son? Or do you have some proof of some kind? Kinda like the proof that
the Z-Film is a fraud? I'm still awaiting that bombshell.
As usual, in Healy's last idiotic post, he puts on full display the CT
Motto many conspiracists live by:
ACCUSE NOW....PROVE NEVER!
Walt
Pssst!! Von Pea Brain, you're avoiding the FACTS..... Ad hominem
attacks, and raising other subjects, are merely an indication that you
want to divert attention from the FACTS. The Facts are: The FIRST
shot STRUCK JFK sometime between Z 210 and Z255. ( Photos establish
this to be a FACT) The first shot probably STRUCK JFK at about Z 224,
and the last shot STRUCK him at Z 313...... Which gives a total
elapsed time between the first and last shot of 4.9 seconds.
Five seconds is very close to the elapsed time that most witnesses
gave for the shooting. Most witnesses estimated the total time of the
shooting as about 5 or 6 seconds. AND ....They all said the shots
were NOT ...EVENLY SPACED!
NOBODY.......absolutely NOBODY could fire a bolt action Mannlicher
Carcano three times in 5.6 seconds and have shots two and three sound
like they were one right on top of the other.
I await another attempt at diversion, and an ad hominem attack.
Walt
David Von Pein
The first shot of 2 that STRUCK Kennedy was within those frames, yes.
Undeniably.
But you have not established the FACT that that shot between 210 & 255
was THE VERY FIRST SHOT FIRED AT THE MOTORCADE.
You've not established that as a "FACT" at all.
FACT is....nobody can really establish that subjective determination
to be an ironclad "fact", because we all know THAT AT LEAST *ONE* SHOT
resulted in a TOTAL MISS of the automobile. The sum total of evidence
DOES establish THAT to be a fact. Even virtually all CTers agree that
at least ONE shot missed everybody in the limousine that day. (Ollie
Stone's got TWO total misses out of 6 shots...great pro shooters
there, huh?)
Exactly which of the shots missed is a subjective matter, and a matter
much harder to determine. But the best evidence (based mainly on John
Connally's rock-solid testimony in this regard) is that the FIRST shot
fired was the "missed" shot.
Even though, as I mentioned, determining which shot was the total miss
is difficult to do, there's really no VISUAL (i.e., Z-Film) way to
skirt around the above "first-shot-missed" declaration, because we can
see JBC make JUST ONE RIGHT-TURN MOVEMENT on the film AFTER the point
in time when gunshots were starting to ring out. And that one "right
turn" is just after Z160.
GOVERNOR CONNALLY:
"We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a
shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot.
I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come
from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right
shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd,
but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was
interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified
it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed
my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my
left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn.
I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little
bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in
the back."
David Von Pein
David Von Pein
Oh, really? That's news to me. (And news to each of the 7 witnesses
below too.).....
======================================================
James Romack (to WC):
Mr. BELIN. How many did you hear?
Mr. ROMACK. Three.
Mr. BELIN. How close did the shots sound like they came together?
Mr. ROMACK. Oh, they happened pretty fast. I would say maybe 3 or 4
seconds apart.
Mr. BELIN. Were they equally spaced, or did one sound like it was
closer than another one in time?
Mr. ROMACK. It sounded like to me that they were evenly spaced. They
rang out pretty fast.
-------------------
Officer Marrion L. Baker (to WC):
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle,
I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots.
Mr. BELIN - Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of
these shots?
Mr. BAKER - It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they
were pretty well even to me.
-------------------
Tom Dillard (to WC):
Mr. BALL - How many explosions did you hear?
Mr. DILLARD - I heard three - the three approximately equally spaced.
-------------------
Mal Couch (to WC):
Mr. BELIN - And what's your best recollection now as to the amount of
time between shots?
Mr. COUCH - Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but
it could be from 3 to 5.
Mr. BELIN - And would this be true between the first and the second
shots as well as between the second and the third - or would there
have
been a difference?
Mr. COUCH - As I recall, the time sequence between the three were
relatively the same.
-------------------
Nellie Connally (to WC):
Mr. DULLES. I just have one question. Mrs. Connally, on one point your
testimony differs from a good many others as to the timing of the
shots. I think you said that there seemed to be more time between the
second and third than between the first and the second; is that your
recollection?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. That is, the space between the first and the second was
less than between the second and the third? You realize I just wanted
to get whether I had heard you correctly on that.
Mrs. CONNALLY. You did.
-------------------
Emmett Hudson (to WC):
Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you hear altogether?
Mr. HUDSON - Three.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them
closer together?
Mr. HUDSON - They seemed pretty well evenly spaced.
Mr. LIEBELER - Evenly spaced; is that it?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
-------------------
Harold Norman (Via his re-creations of what he heard):
Mr. NORMAN - Boom...(click-click)...Boom...(click-click)...Boom.
Norman always "re-created" his "Booms-Clicks-Clicks" in a
PERFECTLY-EVEN distribution of the gunshots.
=====================================================
Walt
> >>> "The FIRST shot STRUCK JFK sometime between Z 210 and Z255." <<<
>
> The first shot of 2 that STRUCK Kennedy was within those frames, yes.
> Undeniably.
>
> But you have not established the FACT that that shot between 210 & 255
> was THE VERY FIRST SHOT FIRED AT THE MOTORCADE.
Phil Willis was CERTAIN that no shots were fired prior to the photo he
snapped at Z 202 ( see photo page 171 POP)
Here's what Phil Willis said about the timing of that
photo.....Quote..."As I was about to squeeze the shutter, that is when
the FIRST shot rang out, and my reflex just took the picture at that
moment..... I might have waited another full second, but being the way
my war nerves were....when that shot rang out, I just flinched and got
it" .... Unquote.
Mr Willis flinched at the sound of the FIRST shot, and that flinch
caused him to snap the camera shutter and take the photo that the W.C.
established was snapped corresponding to Zapruder frame 202.
THAT my dear Pea Brain establishes when the first shot STRUCK
JFK..... Twist and squirm like a worm on a fish hook but you can't
get off that hook.
Since a shot struck between Z 210 and Z 255 ( as you admit) and Major
Phil Willis established that that shot was numero uno, and the last
shot struck at Z313 you're compelled to either lie or admit that the
total elapsed time for the shooting was no longer tha 5.6 seconds.
Walt